Analyst Talk - Sara Lee - Gaming, Growth, and Giving Back - Leapodcasts

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.

(00:01):
It's like coffee with an analyst,or it could be whiskey with an
analyst reading a spreadsheet,linking crime events, identifying a
series, and getting the latest scoopon association news and training.
So please don't beat that analystand join us as we define the law
enforcement analysis profession.
One episode at a time.
Thank you for joining me.
I hope many aspects ofyour life are progressing.
My name is Jason Elder and today ourguest has 20 years of law enforcement

(00:26):
analysis experience with 22 years oflaw enforcement experience overall.
She's currently the senior crime analystwith Vancouver Police Department.
She holds a certification with IALEIA asa criminal intelligence certified analyst.
She's working on her master'swith Arizona State University

(00:46):
and she is active in IALEIA.
She is a fiat instructor andthe recently elected secretary.
Please welcome Sarah Lee.
Sarah, how we doing?
Great.
Thank you for having me, Jason.
Thank you.
It's we have a lot to go over.
I just found out like five minutes agothat you were the recent elected secretary

(01:08):
for IALEIA, which I am embarrassed thatI didn't know that beforehand when I
was doing my homework for the show.
But yeah, and before we get into allof that, in the states here, Sarah Lee,
you probably get that a lot, is thefrozen foods of Sarah Sarah Lee, right?
Yes, indeed.
As a matter of fact everywhere I go,when I do get asked, I make a point to

(01:29):
note that not only am I not related tothe baker, Sara, I am a self-proclaimed
terrible cook and I do not bake whatsoeveronce I've tried to make a muffin turn
out to be more like a pudding material.
So I figure that is not.
The path I wanna go.
Oh man.
That, that, and that does make it worse.

(01:52):
Fact, the, the, the fact thatyou like don't like cooking
makes it, makes it a lot worse.
But that is, that is funny.
It is quite ironic indeed.
All right.
How did you discover the lawenforcement analysis profession?
Well funny you asked because when I wentthrough my university days, criminology
was the last thing that I wanted to do.

(02:14):
As a matter of fact, I am probablyone of the far and few analysts
that you'll ever meet that havenever taken any criminology courses.
But what happened was in 2003, likemany almost ready to graduate university
student, I panicked and figure,oh my gosh, I need to have some.

(02:35):
Work experience or else I'm not gonnaget hired after I get outta university.
So I spoke with my advisor andthe, literally the only job that
was available was an immigrationofficer with the, what is now called
Canada Border Services Agency.
And they were hiring co-op students.

(02:56):
So I signed up and that was reallythe start of law enforcement for me.
Little did I know Iwould end up where I am.
Yeah.
So then what, what did you wantto be when you went to school?
Originally
I wanted to be a child psychologist.
My, my degree was in psychology.
Mm-hmm.
And I had a passion for cognitivepsychology with all the theories

(03:19):
and but then I realized in orderto be a psychologist, I have to.
Basically take more schooling.
And that was also somethingI didn't wanna do anymore.
So I gave that up and continuedon with the law enforcement path.
All right.
And then, so what kind of tasks wereyou doing for the board position?

(03:40):
It was really just stampingpassports, welcoming new immigrants.
I mean, they have already been vetted andeverything, so there was no security risk.
But my job really as the co-op studentat the time was just to stamp their
passport, give them a welcome package,and kind of that, that was it.
So it was like any university student,I was happy to have, earn some

(04:04):
money, have some work experience,and it was really just easy work.
Yeah,
kinda sounds
horrible, isn't it?
Do you have any favorite storiesduring your time during that?
Well, after the immigration role, whichlasted about four months, that was the
semester I was transferred to anotheroffice still with the same agency.

(04:26):
But this time I was what theycall an enforcement officer who
now have to make arrangement toremove failed refugee applications.
So I always like to bring backthe whole story about full circle.
So my first job was to welcome immigrants.
My second job was to ask them to leavebecause they have failed immigration.

(04:50):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's, that's inter How longand how long did you do that?
I did that for another eight months.
So the whole co-op was.
Pretty much a year, and then Iwent back to school for my last
semester and, and then I graduated.
Yeah.
And then, so what didyou do after graduation?
Well I started my second panic attack,which was, now that I've graduated, I

(05:12):
gotta find a real job and I don't havea school to find me a job anymore.
So I basically called, called and sentout my resumes to all the different city
halls that there are in my general area.
And one day I got a call fromthe Richmond RCMP, and they were
looking for a records clerk.

(05:33):
Mm-hmm.
And I always say my law enforcementcareer, there is a lot of, it just
happened to be at the right place at theright time and knowing the right people.
So I got a call from City Hall andthey said they're looking for a
records clerk, and they noticed thatI have security clearance because
of my CPSA experience, so they.

(05:54):
They hired me pretty much justlike that because I, not because
I was actually qualified.
Well, hopefully I was
qualified,
but I actually don't know that.
But I do know that I was definitely pickedbecause I specifically had the security
clearance that they wanted, because itusually takes about eight to 10 months
for someone to be cleared from the start.

(06:14):
Mm-hmm.
From scratch.
. Getting into that role is quite different, right?
Because now it's all data driven.
Yes.
And I have to say that eventhough I was only there for
about eight, nine months mm-hmm.
It really gave me the foundation of whatI do now as a crime analyst because it
exposed me to records management so thatI understand how UCR works, for example.

(06:40):
Mm-hmm.
How the database work, whichI still use till this day.
So it really exposed me to a lot of thesefoundational skills and knowledge that
helps me throughout my whole career.
Alright, nice.
And then, so you said you were therejust a short time, so then an analyst
position comes open then, right?
Yes, almost.

(07:01):
And this is because when I worked atRecords, it was shift work and mm-hmm.
I, I don't do overnights very well,so, about six to eight months in, I
knew I needed to get another job 'causeI just cannot stay awake at three in
the morning trying to process records.
So I joined special projects with theRCMP called the missing Woman Task Force.
Mm-hmm.

(07:21):
This is a unit where investigatorswould look into missing and murdered
indigenous, indigenous women.
And I was there for about three yearsat first as an information processor.
And that was where I was exposedto additional databases, which.
Also helped me alongthe way till this day.

(07:43):
And I was friends with ananalyst there at the time.
Her name is Jamie Patel.
She's no longer with the RCMP,but she was really the person who
introduced me to crime analysis.
I thought she did an amazing job.
All the products that she, I wasblown away and I realized that this is

(08:06):
something that I might wanna pursue.
And.
So I started taking some courses andwith her help, I, after she left, I
became the analyst of that same unit.
. So this leads us to youranalyst badge story.
And for those that may be newto the show, the analyst badge
story is the career defining caseor project that analyst works.

(08:26):
So it's, you just mentioned your rolehere in, investigating working on cases
and so this brings you workingon a serial killer case.
Yes.
I was not part of theinitial investigation.
Because when I joined.
Robert Pickton, who is Canada's prettymuch one of the more, well, most well

(08:49):
known serial killer was already charged.
But I see this case as one of my definingmoments because this is when I was able to
see what analysts do post investigation.
I worked really closely with all ourcrown counsels, which is the equivalent

(09:10):
of your prosecutors, and have to gothrough all the disclosure, which is the
same thing as discovery pre helping themwith data management and and whatnot.
It was a massive ordeal, and I reallycome to appreciate what all the
analysts do and all the work thatthey do during the investigation.

(09:32):
But now I also have a newfoundappreciation for all the.
The work that we as analystshave to do post investigation.
And of course, aside from justRobert Pickton, there were also
other serial killer investigationsthat were still ongoing.
So I was able to take part inthose investigations and trying to

(09:55):
identify and solved those cases.
So it's, it really opened up my eyesin terms of how massive investigations
can get, the sheer amount ofdata that we have to work with.
And it was like for anybody as a newanalyst, this was a lot to take in

(10:18):
and it really reinforced my desireto continue this line of work.
It wasn't gonna be.
I'm a crime intelligence analyst fora couple years, let's do something
else and let's change career.
So this is the definingmoments that I knew I wanted
to go down this analyst path.
Yeah.
Right place at the right time.
Mm-hmm.
Give me an understandingof Robert Pickin's.

(10:41):
Mo.
Oh boy.
I don't know if we cantalk about this too much.
. So he would along with his alleged,co-conspirators would lure women
from our downtown east side.
And these are obviouslytransient vulnerable women.
Mm-hmm.
And offer them money alcohol, cigarettes,drugs, you name it, and would bring

(11:05):
them back to Robert Pickin's home,which is a large farm with a farmhouse
to party and it is believed thathe would drug them and then when
they're unconscious, murder them.
So, yeah, it's, I mean, there have beena lot of books that came out in, I think

(11:25):
a movie or two here and there as well.
But it really doesn't, like I, and I'veread one of the books too, it, it's
quite detailed but it's not, it reallydoesn't do justice until you have to see
the actual photos of the crime scene andread the transcripts of the witnesses.
I mean, I mean, I always say, and I, Itell this to my students, when you're

(11:47):
watching a CSI or a Criminal Mind onehour episode, it's, it's not the same as
really being a part of the investigation.
It's, it's obviouslyHollywood and over glorified.
Knowing that those are realpeople that you're looking at,
it does make a big difference.
Yes.
So, so I, and, and the reason I waswanting a better idea of the MO is

(12:08):
just what you were then asked to do.
And I would think that during yourtime here, after the arrest is
made, collecting information for.
The prosecution.
One of the challenges I would imagineis the fact that a lot of these victims
are transient and might have beenhard to identify previous addresses.

(12:31):
Oh, indeed.
Like one of the paths that Ihad to do was trying to rebuild
the missing person's timeline.
Ha.
And trying to figure out wherethey had intersected with the
timeline of Robert Pickton.
Mm-hmm.
So, and because they are transient, theircases, including the witnesses people

(12:52):
around these victims, they are alsolack of a better word, not necessarily
seen as credible in the eyes of thejury or the court or even the media.
So, and again, this is, and I think, Ithink any analyst can relate to this as.
It comes down to how do you processand evaluate all this information when

(13:13):
everything seems to contradict eachother and trying to, especially for me
coming in way after the investigation,all this data is already in the in,
in our database is how do we processand how do we analyze all these.
This sheer amount of data to make itmeaningful to, to actually make it

(13:34):
make sense for the prosecutor team.
Mm-hmm.
Because obviously we can't justgive them thousands of pages
of, of witness statements.
They want something that's a one pager.
They want those pretty pictures andtry to condense all that information
into information very easilyunderstandable and visually appealing
because we're dealing with jury here.

(13:55):
Mm-hmm.
So then the prosecutor can makethe strongest case possible.
Yeah.
Or was there a particular datasets or particular information
that you were making sure youhighlight on these one pagers?
Yeah.
There was a task where I had toliterally review five 600 DNA.

(14:18):
Lab reports.
Wow.
And what the prosecutor team wanted wasobviously they don't want to submit these
five, 600 documents each with anywherebetween five to 20 pages of lab results.
And the purpose of my task is tobasically condense all that information

(14:39):
into this one big poster in order toshow all the different DNAs that were
found in Robert Pickton farm and who arethey linked to and what exhibits they
were found at, and things like that.
So that was like two months of my, ofmy life reading a lot of these data.

(15:01):
And mind you remember, I was alsonew at the time, so my knowledge of.
What the DNA means and theres, what do the results mean?
I was really learning as I go at the time.
Mm-hmm.
And trying to compact and tryingto understand the basic knowledge
of DNA analysis, and at thesame time trying to come up with

(15:25):
collection plan of how am I going to.
Extract the information from theseDNA reports and how am I gonna
organize it and store it so thenI can make a poster out of it.
That was a huge ordeal, and,but at the end I managed to do
that, so in Crown was very happy.
So, so I guess that's that.

(15:47):
And did you end up, did you end
up testifying?
Luckily, no, I did not.
Because everything on the posterwas sourced back to the DNA report.
Mm-hmm.
So if defense had any questionabout, Hey, is this particular DNA
result accurate or not, they can justsimply go back to the DNA lab report.
Yeah.
So I, I basically, my rolewas to compile it and.

(16:10):
Rearrange the data to make it morevisually easier to understand.
So where were they coming from?
Were they coming from the states?
Were they coming from, where is itstill pretty much all in Canada?
Was it still all in the Vancouver area orwere these people from all over the world?
Well, for the most partthey are Canadians.

(16:31):
. But geographically we had victimswho came from back east like Ontario
one of our Eastern provinces.
Mm. And we also have other victimscoming from our West coast, so not
necessarily, they're not all local.
Mm-hmm.
So we have other jurisdictionsthat we have to involve and.

(16:51):
And their families were also,like, we had some victims' family
also from the states as well.
So it was it was quitea large victim group.
So then he was convicted and sentenced?
Yes.
Yes.
He was convicted by the jurywho ended up convicting him six
counts of second degree murder.

(17:13):
But we had evidence that webelieve he was responsible for,
if not 60, 59 different victims.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Oh man.
And then and then he died in prison?
Yes.
Yes he did.
Yeah.
He was assaulted not toolong ago and he died.
Yeah.
But, wow.

(17:33):
So the, on the, were you able to, you, youwere telling that there was maybe 59, 60.
Were you able to close those casesor those are still open, you weren't
able to, to close them, do you know?
Yeah.
Well, I think for the most part weclosed them because throughout our
investigation, we truly believeRobert Pickton was responsible.

(17:55):
Mm-hmm.
But if you know anything aboutour Canadian legal system
which I don't
It's, it's, some people would liketo call it it's more in favor of the
defendants than it is the victims.
So unless we have what some would calla slam dunk case a lot of files don't

(18:16):
get to the charge approval phase.
As much as we believe based onsimilar moss and, and, and whatnot.
Our prosecutor team basically decided thatthey are just gonna go with the strongest.
We did try to charge 26 26 counts,but in the end, our prosecutor's team

(18:37):
decided to pick the six strongestcases with the most evidence.
Mm-hmm.
And went with that.
So, I mean, I guess we stillhave to be happy with the results
because the person who we think isresponsible was still convicted.
But in, in the eyes of, I guess,law enforcement, we did have to
close these cases because mm-hmm.
In this case, when the accused or, orsuspect in this case, Robert Pickton dies.

(19:03):
He is the only suspect we have.
In those cases, we do close thecases as one way to clear them
is, is that the suspect had died.
So we have no means ofcontinuing any investigation.
Yeah.
Now, you mentioned that you were newto this process, but were you working
with other analysts at the time?
Were there, was there otherpeople working for helping out

(19:24):
the prosecution with this case?
No.
I was pretty much just.
Hanging there and tryingto do the best I could.
You really did getthrown into the deep end.
Yeah, I, I mean likethat's not entirely true.
I, I did let mention when I joined I wasreplacing my mentor and before I became
an analyst, because she knew she wasleading, she did spend about a whipping

(19:47):
two months going over what she does.
Mm-hmm.
And we had a little bit ofcrossover in that sense.
So I was, and because I was theinformation processor I had seen her
products, but what I was not necessarilyknowledgeable of is the process
that she went through as an analyst.

(20:07):
All I was able to do isview her end product.
So I have to almost reverseengineer some of that.
And I think.
And I wanna say most analystsin my generation of 20 somewhat
years most of us really just getthrown to the water and it's a very
sink or swim kind of mentality.

(20:29):
I mean, do you ask a lot of thepolice officer, even today, a lot
of them don't know what analysts do.
So it's our job to educate them.
It's our job to educate ourselves and.
We just have to make the best of it.
And luckily I did just that and I guessI'm still floating until this day.

(20:50):
Now you said data processor, which I thinkis not necessarily a role that I've heard
too much of folks having specificallya title that they, that's not a title
that I've heard too much in the state.
So can you talk a little bit about that?
Sure.
So with the RCMP there is oneparticular position called

(21:11):
data or information processor.
What that person does at least in mycase, is when we have documents coming
in, say a police officer takes awitness statement or phone records come
in, they're the, all these documents.
Physical or electronic, it hasto make it into our data set.

(21:31):
'cause we're not gonna havejust banker boxes of, of paper
for the, for anyone to review.
So as information processor, I wouldhave to scan all that information in
all those documents and pieces of paper.
If they're hard copy and if they'reelectronic, I have to code them.
I have to name the document in specificways and save them into our database.

(21:55):
In order for our investigators, ouranalysts, to be able to view them and
at least know what they're looking at.
So we are consider ourselves thelibrarians of an investigation, right?
We have to document, we have tocategorize, and then we put them
in the shelves nice and neatlyin some kind of organized matter.
So anyone who needs those documentscan find them and retrieve them.

(22:18):
There's coders here in thestates doing similar work.
, That tracks.
Okay.
So then moving on a little bit, you.
Then make your way to Vancouver in 2008.
So talk about that transition, from RCMP to Vancouver.
Well, I guess depending on whoyou ask some people will tell
you, I went to the dark side

(22:39):
from the
federal unit, whicheveryone wants to be in.
I am now going over to a city office,and it was really, again, I, I wanna
say the right time, the right place, andjust happen to know the right people.
So in the Missing Woman Task Force,it's a integrated unit, meaning
there are police officers secondedto this unit from all over the place.

(23:03):
Within RCMP Vancouver police had.
Members who work in this unit as well.
Same with other municipal city employees.
I became friends with some officers whoare from the Vancouver Police Department
through just speaking with them andthey know my position at the Missing
Woman Task force is contract work,which means once the Robert Pickton

(23:27):
case concludes and court or not at somepoint in time I'm gonna get laid off.
So this is where my panic number threesets in and I figure, you know what?
Probably need to find myself a newjob because this one is for sure gonna
come to end at some point in time.
And the Vancouver PoliceDepartment happened to be hiring

(23:51):
for five different positions.
And I thought at first there's no wayI would ever make it in because anyone
who works in a union environment wouldknow that they always hire within.
So I wasn't even gonna bother.
But this Vancouver policeofficer I was friends with,
told me to just give it a shot.

(24:11):
'cause you never know if.
You just never know.
Mm-hmm.
So I put in my resume and we didour usual intake exam, had the
interview, and I was lucky enough tobe selected as their homicide analyst.
I would like to think it's becauseof my Robert Pickton background and
having worked in major crimes, soit's really not almost a no brainer

(24:35):
that that transition would makesense, of course, thinking back.
But at the moment I was really surprisedas like homicide is such a elite unit.
Like who am I with two years experience?
Going in there thinkingI can do what I can do.
But again, it's that sink or swimmentality and that well wanted to do well

(24:56):
and I wanted a job, so I went for it andI left the RCMP and joined the dark side.
So, so did your Clarence come into play?
Was, was that clearance alsoa factor or did you lose that?
Clearance once you leftthe, your first position?
No.
It's still valid, but every agency likesto do their own security clearance.

(25:21):
Mm-hmm.
So so when I joined the, orbefore I joined the VPD, I had
to do another security clearance.
Mm-hmm.
But I, I would like to think that becauseI already have clearance from the RCMP,
everything was more of a transition.
A a lot of the requirements aretransferable in a sense, so they,
it's not like they have to domy full background from scratch.

(25:46):
Gotcha.
I gotcha.
That makes sense.
Alright, so then let's just youget in there, what, I guess, what
are you think, let's go back to thefirst couple of days or the first
couple months you started there.
What are some of the thingsyou're being asked to do?
What, what's the learning curve like as,as you get into the, the homicide unit?
Oh I would like to say that Iwas not given anything to do.

(26:08):
I was that person who wasintroduced as the analyst.
Nobody knew what that meant.
Mm-hmm.
Because at the time, almost allthe investigators are at that.
Point of their career where they havealready had maybe 15, 20, 25 years
and they have made their way up theladder and they're in this homicide

(26:31):
unit and they are elite of the elite.
So they think they cando everything right.
And here I am, this 20 somewhat yearold girl going into, walking into the
office, introduced us, the analyst,and nobody knew what an analyst did.
I was the very first one.
There was no homicide analyst before that.
And they gave me a computerthat I had no login info.

(26:55):
There was no analyst notebook,there was no time mapping software.
It was like Microsoft Office.
And they said, this is yourcomputer, see you later.
That was, that was my hr. And I, Imean, the first few days I've even
been asked if I can order pens.
Like they thought I was a secretary.
'cause like I said,nobody knew what I did.

(27:16):
Right.
Yeah.
So I really had to fight and takethe initiative and, and this is
the part where I'm gonna tellyou I have very, very thick skin.
And I would go to each of my investigator,poke around what they're doing.
And one day I found an investigatorprint out 200 pages of Excel spreadsheet.

(27:39):
Mm-hmm.
It was call detail records from one ofour telephone communication provider
and started highlighting and I thoughtto myself, okay, this is my in.
I need to find a way toget into this, this bubble.
And I told the investigatorand we basically chatted.
I was being very friendly and I'mlike, Hey, what are you trying to do?

(27:59):
And he told me that, oh, I'm just tryingto look at, analyze this record and try
to figure out who the top caller is.
Some relationships, right.
And I said.
Do you have that in Excel?
And he said, yes.
And I told him, can you send methe Excel file and I will get this
done for you within 20 minutes?

(28:21):
And obviously his eyes lit up.
He's like, this is not possible.
I've been highlighting this fordays now, and he's, he, he's
running out of colored highlighters.
This is how bad it was.
So I, I think what it was is hejust simply didn't believe me.
And he thought by giving the six file tome, he can just kind of shush me away.

(28:41):
And I got the job done and like 10 minutesdid a pivot table and send it back to him
and said, is this what you're looking for?
And I think that really helped meopen the door to being more accepted
into showing them what my valuesand what I can bring to the table.
And and that was it.
After that one task I was reallyregretting it because I was busy after

(29:06):
that and everyone started coming to meand saying, Hey, I heard you can do this,
and I saw you do this, and this is mm-hmm.
Something else that I wanted to do.
And that really just snowballed.
And and I mean, that was one ofthe best thing I think I've ever
done was just to, you know what?
Pull up my pants, be that big girland introduce myself and trying to
insert myself and, and really educatethe officers what analysts do.

(29:32):
Oh
man.
So you, you gave me a little bit of a,a bad flashback because I thought what
you were gonna say when he was printingthem out that the phone company gave them
to you via PDF and 'cause that's the waywe used to get 'em, is we didn't have
'em in a work worksheet or a workbook.
, They would just.
Print 'em off and give 'em to usvia PDF, and then we had to scan

(29:55):
'em in and then clean 'em up.
So that's what I thoughtyou were gonna say.
I was like, oh, but yours,yours is way better and easier.
So yes, you're right.
10, 15 minutes than you gotwhatever he's doing, plus not
going through 87 highlighters.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I mean that did also happen.
Some companies would give it tous in PDF format, but we were able

(30:18):
to convert the PDF into Excel.
So either way, at some point, and, andthis is where I met my new friends at the
telecom providers, and I mean, that wasone of my first networking session was.
Again, I was relatively new tothis, like I knew how, where data
works, I know how Pivot table works,but one of the things that I was

(30:39):
still learning was understandingthe meaning of the data itself.
Like, yeah, I'm seeing this two andfrom column, but what are all these
other things that I'm looking at?
And so again, my thick skin, I justpicked up the phone and I called the
provider and this case was Rogers.
And I just started asking questionslike, I have these 10 columns and I

(30:59):
don't know what three of these mean.
Can you explain to me?
And I think.
That also really became a point wherenow I also understand the importance of
networking and understanding the data.
And what, if I, if you don'tunderstand something, just ask, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like, that's, that's,that's not very difficult.

(31:21):
But it's definitely one challengebecause we all want to think we're
the smartest person in the room,and sometimes that just is not
true and we just have to seek help.
Like, I'm not one to be afraid to justsay, I don't know something, and I'm
gonna find out what the answer is.
Yeah.
Well it's, you become a level, youdevelop a level of expertise, right?

(31:44):
Because this stuff comes upover and over again, and each
case is a little bit different.
So you build off of your last casethat you worked and you slowly start to
develop a, a standard operating procedure,whether it's written down or not.
You just have a pro, a way ofdoing things and, and over time you

(32:06):
just, you, it sounds like you justcarved out your piece of the pie
in terms of the work going around.
Mm-hmm.
Indeed.
Yeah.
So after about 16 yearsof us doing that that.
I, I'd like to consider myselfknowledgeable in the, in, in
the area of phone analysis.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(32:26):
And so, and this was just allwithin the homicide unit, right?
Yes.
Yeah, that was actuallythe bulk of my work.
I mean, like I think if you speak toany analyst working in major crime,
they will tell you that phone analysisor communication analysis these days
they call it is really the bread andbutter of any major crime analysts role.

(32:46):
And after, like you said, have donedoing it for so many years, we're
just bound to develop that expertise.
And yeah, it's really a good feelingto actually say that I think I know
what I'm doing now and be able tohelp others who are new to this field.
Yeah.
Well, it, it all, man, the, the amountof data that's captured on that, on

(33:09):
these phones too, I mean, we, when, whenwe first started, you're lucky to get
like the call records and maybe eventhe text message, not the actual data.
You would just get the, the, thedetail records back and forth.
That's basically all we were looking at.
And now you're, they're just holdinga terabyte worth of data in their

(33:30):
hand that you're supposed to, thatyou can spend your, spend your
life analyzing Just one phone.
Oh yeah.
Like the, the sheer volume ofreally any type of technology just
exploded in the last five, 10 years.
I still remember one ofmy first homicide, it.
It was a landline, so there was nocell tower analysis, none of that.

(33:53):
It was just to and from it, it waspretty much like two, three columns
and that was it with the date and time.
But now you're looking at datathat could be like 15 columns
long because there is just so muchmore information being captured.
Hi, my name is Victoria Curtis,and my public service announcement

(34:17):
is that despite how we may act,analysts are not omniscient.
Please don't just give us a nameand tell us to work our magic.
We're not witches, we're data people.
Please give us context.
A report number, a date,literally anything.
I'm begging you just alittle cru of information.
My name is Erin Veka, and a pet peeve ispeople who hoard information when we're

(34:42):
all supposed to be working together.
If there's one thing I can't stand, it'sbeing on a case where someone is holding
on to all the pieces of information,like a squirrel holding their collection.
At the end of the day, we all havethe same goal to solve the problem,
investigate and help get the job done.
When we share what we know, everyone wins.
Hi, this is Jennifer Evado.

(35:03):
I like to tell peopleto try to find your why.
Try to find a mantra or a quote thatwhen it is tough in this profession,
you can kind of say that quote or yourmotivational, to keep things going.
So one of mine happensto be a movie quote.
It is, do or do not.

(35:24):
There is no try, and that is justsomething that I keep repeating to myself
if I, if I need a little inspiration.
Now, did you have a certainprocess as you were.
Dealing with these phones ormaybe using certain programs or
you just, did you stay in Excel

(35:44):
well, I do have an SOP, which is ourstandard operation, operating procedure.
And we have a way that I have developedin terms of how we clean the data.
Mm-hmm.
And after we clean the data, and thatwas done in Excel after we clean it
depending on what the qu analyticalquestions we have, sometimes I

(36:06):
would just remain in Excel and usethings like pivot tables and charts.
So when we have things like whoare the top callers and, and
that type of questions, thoseare easily created using Excel.
But when we start having more.
Relationship and relational data.
Like if we have five or six differentphones within the same investigation,

(36:30):
then I would start moving.
Into Analyst Notebookto visualize that data.
And of course, in order to identifylocation and spatial analysis,
I typically use Esri products.
Either the Arc GIS for Excel as anadd-on or the actual Esri product.

(36:51):
Rgi IS, in this case Probecause it's updated now.
So it, it really depends on whatthe question I am trying to.
Answer is, and I would just usedifferent tools and different formulas
or functions within those tools andsoftware to try to answer those questions.
Mm-hmm.

(37:12):
All right.
No, that that makes sense.
So you never, you never got into any ofthe, it sounds like you just stayed in
the Excel world and kept it that way.
Yeah.
Excel is really a powerful tool.
I mean, with short of thelack of visual sometimes.
Mm-hmm.
I am a very.
Number oriented person, likeI personally work well with

(37:36):
numbers and charts and tables.
I can see that a lot better.
My end products, however, though,because some of my investigators
are not very good at looking ata table of, you know of data.
So I would make sure that to tailormy end products to my audience is to

(37:57):
recreate that same information intomaybe Avis visual ounce notebook chart
so they can see the icons and theycan see the lines going in and out.
Right.
Or if it's obviously a, a locationbased type of task then I make sure
to have a, a map of something thatcan visually represent where the
towers are and how close it is to the.

(38:20):
Maybe a victim residence or a crime scene.
And those visual illustrationsare very powerful in terms of
being able to tell that story.
Whereas looking at numbers and dataand tables, sometimes it, it's not.
So it's, it's really just using avariety of tool that's on my belt and

(38:42):
seeing what works and what doesn't andwhat's the quickest way or whatever
the officer is more comfortable with.
Yeah.
And prosecutor and jurieslike pictures as well, right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
All right.
So after your time in homicide, youtransfer to the organized crime asset
forfeiture section where you are now?

(39:04):
And as you described it yesterdayin the prep call, you went from
being reactive to proactive.
Yes.
It really, there were ahandful of variables and in
factors why I made the move.
Part of it is really burnt out after15 years, 16 years of homicide.
It's very intense, fast paced sometimesunpredictable in terms of workload or

(39:30):
call outs and, which was fine when Ifirst started because I was a eager beaver
and I wanted to prove myself and I wasnew, so I was totally fine with that.
And then like.
This thing called marriage kindof came into the picture and
then two kids later it was just.
It didn't work with my life anymore.
Having kids and, and starting a familyreally takes a lot of time, as you know.

(39:56):
I felt that I was not able to committhe same and offer the same type of
commitment to my unit as I previously did.
Part of it is I feellike I'm not doing them.
Justice, I'm not doing them a favor ifI'm not able to put in a hundred percent.
And also mentally stress was also gettingto me because it was a lot to balance.

(40:21):
And I knew at some point in time mywork-life balance was just, the scale
was tipping and something gotta give.
And I decided that my family comes first.
And so I started to look foranother posting that would
alleviate some of that stress.
So the asset forfeiture unit hada new position, and this is brand

(40:45):
new as well, so they never hadannounced before and they thought,
okay, in this organized crime sectionmaybe this will be a good fit.
So I had a chat with the sergeant ofthe organized crime section at the time.
And he basically explained to me that,well in organized crime, it's very.
Proactive.

(41:05):
So we are not reacting to anything, whichmeans call out is very minimal and the
type of work is also very different.
We are now dealing with DA totallydifferent type of crime type.
We're now looking atgangs, guns, drugs, money.
And I thought that wouldbe something different.

(41:27):
And I needed somethingdifferent in my life.
I, I could not see myselfdoing CDRs and, and another 16
years before I get to retire.
And so I decided thatthis transfer probably.
Works best for everyone.
And so I, I did that.
And I think another factor that reallymotivated me to move to organized crime

(41:51):
was I was starting to feel a bit downbecause of our lovely Canadian justice
system system , the sheer, I, I'm sure youcan relate to this too, but we investigate
a lot of files and even when we solve,quote unquote solve them, not all of

(42:13):
them will ever get charged, approved byour prosecutors and let alone when they.
Do go into court andsomehow we get convictions.
Sometimes the sentencing is notreally what we hope for and maybe
that's the softest way to land this.
So I was a bit disappointed.

(42:34):
I feel like all this work that we'vedone sometimes some of these files
take years and years and years.
And then even testifying incourt, going through all that
stress, and then what do we get?
We get maybe a handful of years.
That they go into jail and theseaccused go into these jail, make even
more contact, and they practicallycome out stronger than ever.

(42:57):
They see jail time, really justlike vacation and networking.
And I was really disappointedand I thought, I feel like the
work that I do, I am not gettingthe satisfaction that I need.
It's not doing the victim's justice.
So I decided to go to organized crimeand in this asset forfeiture, because
it's half criminal investigation,and then the other half is civil.

(43:21):
As in civil courts, the thresholdfor conviction is much, much lower.
We're talking 51% instead ofbeyond a reasonable doubt.
And I get way more satisfaction now whenI put in referrals to the civil forfeiture
office asking them to seize thesegangsters cars and Rolexes and properties.

(43:47):
And sometimes in one file wehad seized like over a million
dollars worth of luxury purses.
Those are the kind of things thatwould never happen in my homicide or
major crime unit because the purposeis completely different, right?
Mm-hmm.
We are looking for proceeds ofcrime in my new unit, and I, I
don't know, I, I feel like that.

(44:10):
Really caused more pain inthese bad people than jail time.
So my satisfactory, you know radar reallywent up and, and I thought, you know what?
This, this is what I wanna do.
I, I this is a much better preventativeand even deterrence measure that one can.

(44:32):
Impose onto these criminals,then giving them jail time.
So that was three years ago andwe're still seizing properties
till this day, and I'm loving it.
Nice, nice.
Well, I I, my fir my first reactionto what you just said is, I'm glad
to see another country strugglingwith this issue or any issue.

(44:55):
It seems like the UnitedStates can't do anything.
Right.
We're always in the news.
We're not, not doing something right.
So it's good to hear that we'renot the only ones struggling
with, with some of these issues.
So I, I do find it fascinating that itis a mixture of government and civilian
that you're, that you're dealingwith in terms of asset forfeiture.

(45:20):
And I'm, I'm assuming that, areyou working the cases as well with.
These gangs, or is it just strictlyasset forfeiture at this point?
So I actually wear two hats in my role.
Mm-hmm.
I belong to the organized crimesection, which means I am part
of, like, I am the analyst for thecriminal investigation when we are.

(45:45):
Investigating drug traffickingor firearm possession all
these different criminal cases.
And once we are near the end of thatcriminal investigation in terms of,
okay, my investigators are now gettingready to write the report and present
it to the prosecutor team, and so on,so forth, then I switch my hats and I

(46:06):
put on the asset forfeiture hat, lookingto see, okay, now that we have these
charges about to happen, what can we doin the civil world to further for lack
of a better word, punish these criminals.
And we're not gonna necessarily wait forthe court process, but what we can do

(46:28):
is let's look at what assets they have.
This is the part that doesn'tget looked at when we're doing
the criminal investigation.
'cause what we're.
What we are focused on during thecriminal investigation is to obtain
evidence to prove the wrongdoing,right, the drug trafficking or the,
the firearm import or exploitation.

(46:51):
But with the asset forfeiture hat,I am now looking at that person.
Asset, what cars do they own?
What bank accounts do they have?
What properties do they own?
And sometimes it's not just them,it's their family or extended family.
Because if we think that there's proceedsof crime, and most bad guys know, at

(47:12):
least in British Columbia, that they'regonna put everything in the wife's
name or in the 18-year-old kid's name.
We have the power to refer theseassets on the basis of these criminal
predicates because as long as we canprove that we believe these properties
are luxurious item, or cars are purchasedor funded by the criminal proceeds,

(47:36):
the asset for Chairi can get at them.
So not only are these criminals oralleged criminals getting hit with
these criminal cases, we are alsohitting them with the civil side.
So it's, it's really awin-win for, for the police.
And those are the two hats that I wear.
I just switch back and forth dependingon the stage of the investigation.

(47:59):
All right, let's move on then to teaching.
, You're an instructor.
You're, you're teaching acouple different classes.
I know you teach the Fiat class, andyou've done that for a couple of years.
What are you seeing just generallyfrom your students, what needs, what's,
what's questions you're getting?
What's, what's some trends there?

(48:20):
Well, I think for and foremostis that a lot of students, they
really don't know what analysts do.
Mm-hmm.
I think the whole notion of becominga criminal or like the crime analyst
or Intel analyst sounds cool.
And that is the basis of, or at leastthe first thought that they have
is, I want to join this because.

(48:41):
I think it's a cool job.
It pays well and so on.
And the second trend that Isee is that I find a lot of
courses are very lecture based.
It's very textbook based.
And my personal opinion, I mean like mightnot be the same for a lot of people, but
this is just me, is that I think thatwe are not doing these students justice.

(49:07):
We are not setting them up for successif all we're doing is giving them a
textbook and as an instructor regurgitate.
What that textbook is saying,give them a final exam.
They get a grade and off they go.
And then they're now trying to eitherget into the field or they might
have gotten into the field and nowponder why is nothing the way that

(49:29):
my textbook set is supposed to work.
So those are really thetwo main trends that I see.
I feel that, and because I have gonethrough the sink or swim mentality,
there were back in the day, nota lot of courses available for
new analysts and there weren't alot of analysts around to mentor.

(49:52):
Each other as well.
As a person who's been doing thisa long time, I feel that I have
an obligation to help these new oraspiring analysts the best I could.
At least whatever I can contribute tohelp them pay the path for success,
we have to set them up for success.

(50:13):
We cannot just simply.
Give them a manual and give them adesk, give them a computer and say,
here, go figure it out yourself.
I don't think that is the way ourfield should be, and I don't think
that if we continue this path,we're gonna have very good analysts.
And this is part of the reasonwhy I wanted to get into teaching

(50:34):
it, is really to give back.
I totally understand.
I think we're on the same page too.
I think, I think one of the thingswe talked about a little bit in the
prep call yesterday is just this ideaof hands-on exercises and training.
Like there's too much talking headlecture based, like you described.
Just give them a textbook, havethem read it and take a multiple

(50:57):
choice test and be done with it.
But.
The, the how to is, is lacking.
I, I feel, and not that, notthat I think lecture base should
totally go away, but in moderation.
I, I think there definitely needs tobe more opportunities to actually get
their hands on data and manipulate dataand try to figure it out themselves.

(51:20):
Yes, for sure.
I think critical thinking is one of theareas that are least taught in school.
Because we're giving them that textbook.
We're basically giving them, hereare the 10 steps, and if you follow
it, you will get to the end andyou'll be able to do your assignment.
And we're, we're creating this illusion ofeverything is perfect in law enforcement.

(51:44):
I mean, you and I havebeen here this long enough.
How many times do we have to.
Data, clean, any set of data, right?
Mm-hmm.
And, and I think in my class at least, Ilove throwing those curve balls at them.
The students that I know will do wellare the ones who will email me and tell
me, Hey, this kind of doesn't make sense.

(52:07):
Why is the data like this?
Or How am I supposed to dealwith this in this situation?
Because that's not taught in your class.
Like, that's not what the example was.
Mm-hmm.
And my response is usually,that's a very good question.
How would you deal with it?
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Some, some of my students lovethat, and some maybe not so much.

(52:28):
That's not what they expect, right?
They want to repeat the same processthat I show them as a demo, and
they think that is the way to do it.
But
yeah,
It's, it's like, it's funny because.
Even the newer analysts I see at myagency I, we get a lot of that too.
I would have some analysts cometo me and say, Hey, this is the
10 steps I learned in this coursethat I took from this institution.

(52:54):
But I noticed that the datais a little bit different, so
it seems like it's not just.
One to 10, it's one to five, and thenmaybe a five A, B, and C trying to figure
out how to deal with that situation.
And then continuing on, and maybe I'llskip a, skip a step here and there and,
and I really admire those new analystsand those aspiring analysts who can really

(53:19):
think outside the box and who can not onlyjust identify the issue, but also solve it
and, and critically think and manage that.
Yeah.
And I, and I get, I and I get lazy likethat too in, in that I just get into
data processing mode and like, okay,you're asking me for this report, or

(53:40):
you're asking me for this data, andI just process it and give it to you
without actually even studying the data,the results to see if there's more that
I could help out , with the requester.
Right.
It's mm-hmm.
One of those things onto thenext task type type of thing.
So it is easy to just stay inthat realm of, alright, we're
just gonna follow the recipe.

(54:00):
We're just going to process thedata and move on to the next thing.
Instead of sit there and actuallyunderstand it, get the business
reasons, get the practical reasons forthe data, and, to truly be, helpful
more than what you're being asked.
Oh, indeed, indeed.
And this kind of goes back to the,topic that we talked about earlier on.

(54:24):
How a lot of officers don't knowwhat we do, so they might ask us
for one thing, but sometimes ifyou've been long around long enough
that's actually not what they meant.
Mm-hmm.
But
they, what they, when they say analyzethis they actually meant analyze that.
Mm-hmm.
And, and some of it, yeah, sure.
It's experience.
But it's also the courage toreally ask like, okay, you're

(54:49):
asking for me to analyze?
This data, but what do you hope to find?
Like what do you want from this data?
Like, are you trying to write awarrant to get into the house?
So how is his cell tower not hittingthe home gonna help you in any way?
And then your investigators willstart thinking, oh yeah, that's right.

(55:12):
No, that's actually not what I want.
It's, it's this other thing that I want.
So it's that this two way streetis very important and I always
tell students or not, sometimes newanalysts that don't be afraid to.
Go back to your investigatorand confirm and clarify what
is it that they actually want.

(55:33):
Like you we're not gonna lookstupid because we ask a question.
It's so we're saving each other's time.
You're not gonna be working on somethingfor two days just to realize that's
not actually what they want, right?
Mm-hmm.
That's my little pet peeve.
Yeah.
No, no.
I get it.
I get it.
All right, let's talk about fiat a littlebit and I was a fiat instructor Oh, geez.

(55:57):
Way back when, sometime in the aughts.
Just a little funny.
I know it's gone through severaliterations over the years, and
you taught one of the first onesof this iteration back in June.
So I am curious to get your take onthe latest iteration and just how
the program will progress forward.

(56:19):
Well, I'm gonna say thatthe new version, our 5.0 is.
A huge revamp for the better.
And I'm not saying this becauseI'm part of the development group.
Mm-hmm.
But it's really the movefrom paper to electronic.
As much as we are still in the businessof teaching analysis, times have changed.

(56:45):
Right?
Like we are using computers, weare using technology to assist
us in all sorts of analysis.
So I think.
The biggest thing that IALEIA can, hasdone is to not only update the content,
but also moving towards the technology.

(57:05):
We're using Excel, we're usingdifferent types of technology.
To show the students how to do analysis,and it's not just paper and pen anymore,
but at the same time, we're not movingaway from the foundational skills.
Like they still need tounderstand the theories.
They still need to understand thereasoning behind why we do what we do.

(57:29):
But yeah, I think this whole movingaway from, from pen and paper is,
is the biggest development that wehave and then the biggest improvement
that the fiat has to offer.
Yeah.
Now are you teaching it online or are youstill, or is instructors still traveling
to locations and meeting in a classroom?
We're still traveling.

(57:49):
Mm-hmm.
I think IALEIA will most likely staywith that method of instruction.
I think, I think part of it is as muchas it is convenient to do everything
virtually on online I really believe that.
The human interaction piece, theseeing the instructor and interacting

(58:11):
with them is really what givesIALEIA that extra added value.
It's the network.
I mean, how many times have we goneto a virtual meeting or virtual class
and you end up just kind of halflistening and don't even turn your
camera on 80% of the time, right?
Like that.
I, I find a lot of thathuman interaction gets lost.

(58:32):
You don't feel as invested if we are justsimply a virtual platform and, and online.
And I think part of the in-personinteraction, and it's not just.
Knowing the instructors,it's also among themselves.
They're in a classroom together,they do group work and they get to
network and yeah, there are so manyoccasions where people, and the

(58:58):
students and the instructors wouldthree and five, eight months later
still connected with each other.
I once taught with an instructorfrom Arizona, a good friend of
mine, and she needed a contact upin Yukon, which is another province
north of, of British Columbia.
And she didn't know any other Canadians,so she ended up calling me up.

(59:18):
There are times when I have a student fromSeattle fusion Center and he gave me a
call and said, Hey, I needed some, somesomething from a, a Canadian province.
It wasn't my province, but becausehe knew me, I was able to point
him in the right direction.
So aside from just learning the, gettingthe knowledge and the skills, I think

(59:39):
the interaction and the networkingis what the students truly value.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Now, since you are computer based,does everybody have to have a laptop?
Yes.
That is one of the requirement.
All the students have to come witha laptop unless the host agency
offers, lending of the computers.
Yeah.
That's probably a lot easier nowadays,as it was like 15 years ago when I

(01:00:06):
yes.
No more binders.
Yeah, that's, well, geez.
Well, they're saving on a lot of money inpostage sending those all over the place.
It was man, it was that messy.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
So, as I mentioned in your intro, you wererecently elected as Secretary of IALEIA,
so that's a brand new position for you.

(01:00:28):
And I know we're only a couple monthsinto you filling that role, but I
just wanted to get your impressions.
So far of what it's liketo be Secretary of IALEIA?
Well, I think for the mostpart, very overwhelming.
I mean, I, I've been an IALEIA member,I've joined the Fiat and I've talked

(01:00:49):
to professional standards, but Ithink as a member, my experience
with IALEIA is very, very differentthan being on the board because now.
I get to see the inner workings ofhow this organization actually works
and all the efforts that all thedirectors and all the board members

(01:01:10):
put in to make this IALEIA organizationsuch a successful and valuable.
What's the word?
Commodity like a to have value, right?
Yeah.
Like, it's just so valuable toanalysts all over the world.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, when I first joined, I justthought, oh, Aaliyah is this organization

(01:01:33):
where if I need contact from the otherside of Canada, I, I can look up a
directory and I can get this information.
But having been a, a Fiat instructor,for example, now I can see how all
this training is helping new analysts.
And having gone through the CICAcertification myself, now I can see the

(01:01:56):
value of all these different elementsthat are put together by the organization
to help new as, as also senior analystsin every step of their career really.
So now as a secretary myhope is to really contribute.
And return the favor pretty much andprovide the same type of commitment

(01:02:21):
to this organization as it hadwhen it helped me with my career.
Yeah.
And again, I know it's prettyearly yet, but, I think , you're
there to observe and take notes.
Right.
I don't wanna simplify it toomuch, but that's, that's, that's
kind of a nice position to be injust to get your feet wet, right?
Yes.
And as a matter of fact, that was reallymy goal because like I said, having been

(01:02:45):
at different levels and the lower levelsof Ilea, different committees mm-hmm.
I wanted to do a little bit more.
I wanted to kind of give back even more.
And so with a lot of encouragementfrom previous board members as well as
the president I, I thought, you knowwhat, I'm just gonna give it a try.
And, but I didn't want the, the burden ofbeing, a director with such a heavy, with

(01:03:11):
different heavy portfolios, like mm-hmm.
Professional standardsor ethics or training.
Those are just, I feel like I'm not ready.
Mm-hmm.
So really the secretary role wasit's terrible to say this, but it's
almost the easiest foot in the door tounderstand how the organization works
and really being able to work withall the different board directors to

(01:03:33):
have an even better understanding of.
Like I said, the inner workings of,of how the organization functions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So my, my job is really to keepeveryone else organized and yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I take, it's still an important jobbecause as you mentioned it, it takes a
village and everybody, all those movingparts things need to be documented.

(01:03:54):
Things need to be explained, and,and that's that's an important
part of, of the ILEA machine.
Absolutely.
I mean, like you put it.
Together really well.
I think everyone has a very uniquerole and this card doesn't work
if all the different cogs are notfunctioning together, and I feel
like I'm really honored to be partof this glue that kind of keeps

(01:04:17):
everything functioning and working.
All right, well, very good.
And I see, as I mentioned in yourintro, you're getting your master's
from Arizona State University.
Masters of Science in Crime analysis.
And I know that you mentioned atthe beginning of this interview that
you never took a class in criminaljustice in the very beginning.

(01:04:40):
So you're kind of doing it backwardswhere you get your experience
first and now you're getting the,formal training and, and structure.
So how is that going for you?
Oh, it was great.
I actually just handed in my finalpaper, so I am technically done once
the grades come out and I am done done.

(01:05:00):
So very happy with that.
Thank you.
And yeah, with the Master of ScienceI thought it was it's a great
way to further develop myself.
I mean, like I said there, there'salways room for improvement, right?
And even though I know a lot ofthe materials, because it is crime
analysis as the concentration, thereare still a lot of areas of crime

(01:05:27):
analysis that I, I didn't know.
Like, for example, how do you evaluate.
A program like that's not somethingthat I do at work, so it was
great to be exposed to that.
Or even crime analysis.
I am more intel based and I don'tnecessarily do a lot of crime analysis,
so that was a really interesting exposurefor me and this newfound or appreciation

(01:05:48):
of all the people who work patrol comstatall these different crime analysis roles.
And I think for the most part, everythingthat I learn will at some point come back
and be handy to me at some point in time.
And, and that's typicallyhow I view life, I guess.
Yeah.

(01:06:09):
Well, let's finish up withpersonal interest then.
And I, I like this question again.
You never know what, whatanswer you're gonna get when
you ask somebody a question.
And for you, you're agamer, a video gamer.
I,
I dunno why, I don't know whymost people are surprised.
Maybe 'cause I'm female.
I don't know.

(01:06:30):
But yes, I am quite an avid gamer.
I love RPG games.
I've, one of the series that I absolutelylove is the Final Fantasy series.
Mm-hmm.
And I also love Zelda, so I haveplayed every single Zelda game
from back in the day with the gameBoy, if you remember what that is.

(01:06:51):
Yeah.
To, yeah, to the Switch.
And, and we, and, and allthose games I've played I also
love PC games on the computer.
Some of my favorites are I play theDiablo and I play the StarCraft series.
Nice.
Nice.
So, so I think it's, it, it's fascinatingto me 'cause those aren't like party games

(01:07:13):
or you're not playing necessarily online.
Those are solo games , thatyou're playing there.
Yes.
And that's because I think I amterrible at gaming as much as I play it.
I once tried to play something onlinewith my husband and he completely kicks
my ass, and that gave me PTSD and I willnever play with another person anymore.

(01:07:34):
So I just like to playin my own little bubble.
So if I die, I die.
There's no competition and I just goon my own pace and just do my thing.
Well, I guess with the exception of MarioKart yeah, I, I do love playing Mario
Kart with my kids, and I think I willcontinue to play that with them until
the day that they are able to beat me.

(01:07:55):
And then I'll probably hang, hang that up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, you need to retire as championand then never play it again.
Right, right.
Oh man.
No, it's so, but I do likehow you mentioned in the
prep call yesterday that you.
Your family are all gamers and that youdon't also necessarily play together.

(01:08:18):
So you have your designated video gametime for each member of the family with
strictly enforced time in, time out.
Oh, yes.
So I have two boys at age nineand 11, and all of us have
our own computer or laptops.
We have a, a switch and aPS four at home as well.

(01:08:40):
And Saturday afternoon is ourlittle gaming time and we play
all separately by, by by the way.
And I would be playing on my Zelda and thenext thing my son's tapping me and telling
me, Hey, my mommy, your time is up.
It's my turn to play.
And I usually tell 'em Five more minutes.
Five more minutes.
And they do the same thing too.
So it's, it's good way to really.

(01:09:03):
Bond with your family, I suppose.
One game that I would urge noone to play with their family
is this game called cooked.
It's where you have to work togetherto, you work in a restaurant and you
work together to create these meals.
That is a terrible game toplay with anyone because.
You will end up wantingto kill each other.

(01:09:24):
Trust me on this one
Co-op.
Yep.
A co-op a team building game.
Yeah.
It is not something that it seems likemight not end well in the, in the family.
It might be a pretty quietevening if that goes awry.
Yes.
Everyone end up getting mad at eachother and after about 20 minutes of
that game, we usually have to shutit down because everyone's fuming.

(01:09:48):
Yeah.
We, we do even try.
But yeah, we have decided let'sjust stick with Mario cards so it's,
yeah.
'cause mommy always wins or Daddy always wins.
So we'll keep playing until we do.
Yeah, no, it, it's got, it's, well,my, my son's 16th so he, he really
kicks my butt in most of the games.
Every once in a while I'll get him,but for the most part he kicks my butt.

(01:10:12):
You mentioned the Game Boy.
There's a movie on Apple TVthat I've been wanting to watch.
'cause I think it's fascinating.
It's on Tetris and how the video gameTetris got developed and then eventually
became the default game on the Game Boy.
And of course it's dealing with espionageand, and Russia back back in the eighties.

(01:10:39):
And it looks really good.
I haven't had a chance to take, takea look at it, but it, it, you reminded
me of it as you were talking aboutyou, we were talking about video
games and talking about the Game Boys.
So it's out on a Apple tv.
Oh, that's interesting.
I haven't seen that one, but I've seena couple different YouTube documentary,
or at least documentaries on YouTubeon like the Rise of Nintendo mm-hmm.

(01:11:00):
Or the fall of.
Xbox and things like that.
I think they're like super fascinating.
It's very interesting.
Man, it's the amount ofmoney and everything else.
Development work and, and all that.
Like, holy cow, that is, that is a lotof money there, but, well, very good.
Well, I hope that your family can continueto have fun, not not stress out while

(01:11:25):
you're playing video games and and thatthat you can all get along, I guess.
Yes.
Well, for the time being.
Well, once I start losing,I I might not play anymore.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, all right.
Sarah, our last segment of theshow is Words to the World.
This is where you can promoteany idea that you wish.
What are your words to the world?

(01:11:46):
Well, I think I've kind of alludedto this already, but my words to
the world is just never think youare the smartest person in the room.
Doesn't matter.
If you are in a room with veteransor with new analysts or just a
student, there's always somethingthat you can learn from each other.
And I think it's very importantfor us to keep an open mind that

(01:12:09):
there is always room for growth.
There's always room for new knowledge.
And I guess I'll just leave it with that.
Very good.
Well, I leave every guest with,you've given me just enough
to talk bad about you later.
I do appreciate you being on the show.
Thank, thank you so much, Sarah.
Thank you so much.
And you be safe.

(01:12:30):
My pleasure.
Thank you.
Thank you for making it tothe end of another episode of
Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
You can show your support by sharingthis and other episodes found
on our website@www.podcasts.com.
If you have a topic you would likeus to cover or have a suggestion for
our next guest, please send us anemail at elliot podcasts@gmail.com.

(01:12:50):
Till next time, analysts, keep talking.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Analyst Talk - Sara Lee - Gaming, Growth, and Giving Back