September 1, 2022 • 58 mins
People with gender confusion and their families must be accompanied with both love and truth. How do we do that?
Bishop Frank J. Caggiano gives his thoughts this week on Let Me Be Frank.
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(00:00):
today.
This is an important and difficult conversation in our schools and hospitals.
It seems like every corner of society.
There's an aggressive push of gender ideology that runs counter to christian anthropology and our understanding of the theology of the body.
(00:21):
Bishop Caggiano is going to speak about this today on,
let me be frank.
How do we discuss this one on one with folks or in our schools,
in our parishes and with our loved ones and friends.
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(00:43):
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(01:13):
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Welcome back everybody to let me be frank on the veritas catholic network.
I'm steve lee and it is my great pleasure as always.
(01:34):
To introduce Bishop frank Caggiano.
Good morning.
My friends were using new technology here today.
Uh,
new technology.
Hopefully it works out pretty well.
Let's hope so.
Um,
so you know,
to,
to finish off the quiet summer,
which actually was not a quiet summer for you or for me.
(01:54):
Yeah,
but,
you know,
people are going back to school Excellency,
I kinda just want to jump into it because um,
there's there's,
I guess this subject is a,
is a tough one.
It's and it's more and more important these days,
and so this is,
you know,
how to address gender issues in our schools and our society and with loved ones and friends these days.
(02:23):
So,
um,
I know it's quite an important topic,
right?
Yes,
yep,
yep.
So,
you know,
I guess with that,
let me just turn it right over to you so we can get your,
you know,
wisdom and your guidance here.
Well,
I mean,
well,
first of all,
I think this is a timely topic and it's one that is complicated and one that needs discernment and both fidelity to what the church teaches,
(02:53):
as well as pastoral sensitivity for those individuals who are struggling with this issue.
So,
you know,
it's not going this is not a reflection simply on what the church believes,
which we will do,
but also we need to to figure out the appropriate ways by which we can accompany people walk with people so that they do not feel judged,
(03:18):
but they do feel that someone is with them,
who cares for them,
but also is leading them to what we believe is the truth.
What we know is the truth.
So that's part of it.
And I gave remarks on this topic to the teachers of the archdiocese of philadelphia in March,
(03:39):
and I gave them also to our teachers at their convocation that started the school year.
So some of what I'm going to share along the way is things that I shared with the teachers.
So,
to your point about school,
but I think they're relevant to parents and obviously to priests and pastoral ministers and just anyone church.
(03:59):
So we're gonna go like step by step and we're gonna pause to make sure that it makes sense and ask questions or whatever.
But the first is that we have to recognize that a person's experience and a person's feelings and the when I'm going to call the objective situation,
(04:22):
a person may be in do not always match,
right?
And therefore,
from our perspective,
if a person feels as if or they have this experience of which there's some disassociation between their biological sex and their gender,
right,
Then we our position is to recognize that that's the fact for that person,
(04:49):
right?
And immediately there are some who would say,
well,
that's ridiculous,
that's silly grow up.
But that's not the case.
I mean,
there is a very significant psychological condition right of gender dysphoria where you don't have,
there is literally a disconnect right and it's not a choice.
(05:10):
So we have to recognize that that's serious situation and we have to be pastorally sensitive to that.
So part of the pastoral approach is you start where the person is not where you think the person should be and you need to respect that what they feel if they feel it is real for them.
But again,
(05:30):
that doesn't absolve the need to have this conversation accompany this person to the truth that we understand was revealed by the Lord jesus.
Right.
So does that make sense?
Right.
Right.
And the second is and this may be in this.
Again,
I would invite people our listeners to think through a bit.
There is a difference between biological sex and gender,
(05:55):
at least in most people's understanding the difference being that your biological sex is what you are.
In fact born with and it is forever who you are.
Our genetic composition is never changed no matter what else you hear in society.
Right?
So we talk about we speak about the chromosomes X,
(06:17):
X,
X,
Y,
all the rest that is forever who we are.
That's our biological sex.
Right?
Okay.
Gender is the expression of the of one's biological sex in society.
And that's an interesting that's an interesting area which has caused some of this confusion and some of this controversy because in that expression of our biological sex there have always been parameters that have helped us to understand,
(06:47):
right or distinguish between the two and much of that is cultural and much of that is just logical,
right?
But do you remember at least I remember you may be too young.
You know the whole thing about tom boys when a girl acted like a boy,
she was considered a tomboy because there was almost a spoken cultural norm that said you're not supposed to act that way.
(07:11):
But in fact a young girl is a girl alright.
And she's expressing herself,
her her her femininity in a way that kind of challenge some of the cultural norms.
Right?
So when we speak about gender dysphoria,
we speak about,
(07:31):
you know,
gender fluidity.
We're really talking about at least for us as christians,
that we have to make a distinction between biological sex and gender and the sex is certainly there and the gender we believe,
right,
Which is the expression of our sex should always correspond with your biological sex.
It cannot be disassociated with your biological because it's a contradiction in life,
(07:55):
but that there's a distinction I think it's important to remember right so far makes sense.
Okay then there's the third principle we have to remember and that's the story of a media.
So,
you and I have spoken about the story of the mayor's for a very long time many,
many times.
It's a beautiful story right after the resurrection and how the Lord brings his disciples to turn from the path they had chosen,
(08:22):
which was out of disappointment and fear and perhaps some level of anger back to the mission that they had before.
They saw the horror of the passion and death of jesus right now the principal,
there is the principal I've spoken about before,
we need to consider here as well,
(08:45):
jesus walked with the disciples,
the two disciples in the wrong direction for period of time because the Lord knew that there was reasonable hope that the person,
those two disciples opening in their hearts to the word,
to him,
to his presence would come to a moment in the breaking of the bread where they would recognize they were going in the wrong direction and turn around.
(09:13):
Now that reasonable hope was reasonable because the Lord knew remember his God made man so he knew their hearts,
you and I do not know other people's hearts as much as we would like to think we do,
we don't,
so part of what I'm going to suggest is as we try to articulate for a person,
a group,
(09:33):
the society,
what the church teaches because that will not change.
We're gonna have to have the pastoral courage to walk with people and engage with people who will disagree with it who are,
I might say symbolically walking in the wrong direction from the direction we would hope they would walk,
but we do it because we do have the hope and it's reasonable that if we do walk and build relationships and have conversations and help them to understand the truth in an effective way that more and more of those individuals will be touched by the truth,
(10:12):
and then it's our obligation to help them to live the truth as best they can.
So that can get messy because depending on the attitude that the person has,
they may say,
oh look at this one while he's hanging out with these sort of people or he's doing that,
or he seems to be,
you know,
turning a blind eye to this or that or the other,
(10:33):
which is,
you know,
which is a judgmental attitude from the,
from the outside,
but the person who's the pastoral minister,
whether that could be someone's parent,
pastor,
director,
religious ed teacher coach who have a friend.
Their intent is not to say,
well,
you know,
you have made this decision and I who love you,
(10:56):
right?
I'm just gonna accept it and just move on.
Yes,
I accept you,
I love you.
I recognize your feeling,
I recognize,
but I also want to engage you in a greater truth and I'm gonna caution everyone on this podcast to think through that when you see something like that,
you know,
don't jump,
don't jump to judgment,
(11:18):
right?
Because you don't know in the end what the dynamic is and what the intent is because the intent,
maybe the same intent,
you have only it's the person who's engaging someone else in the messiness of life,
right?
Right?
Yes,
Okay,
so that's the end of that homily.
Now we can talk about.
So what does the church teach?
(11:40):
And part of what the church teaches rests with the answer to the question,
what makes a human person human?
And again,
we've talked about this before,
so this is kind of like repetition,
which is the mother mother of all learning.
If you were to ask the average person in the contemporary world,
(12:04):
in this secular,
post christian world,
what makes a human person human many times,
maybe using this word,
these words are not using their words,
they would say that a human person is a spirit is a soul is a center,
you know,
in more classical terms of subjectivity,
(12:25):
right?
That I what makes I and I and they understand that in spiritual terms as my ability to make choices,
ability to be free,
ability to know who I am,
and ability to give myself over into love.
That is what they believe a human person is.
And in fact that is part of what makes a human person a person that is why we are not animals that are irrational because a dog,
(12:57):
a cat,
a whale,
whomever an elephant in particular have feelings.
You can see tenderness in a a mother elephant for her child.
That is absolutely stunning,
right?
That's why I do all that stuff,
watch National Geographic and which I love that stuff and and BBC Earth and Earth to and because you see the animals in your city.
(13:24):
So,
wow,
I mean,
this is just their protective,
they're they seem loving in some sense and like an analogous sense,
but in fact they are not loving as we love.
That's the essential difference.
So,
so the definition that most moderns would not perhaps,
you know,
kind of explain in those words,
(13:44):
but but actually operate out of we we would say yes,
but but there's more than that,
which is the body,
which is the instrument through which you can act be free and love,
right?
So in a world that says,
my body is not essentially me,
(14:04):
that is fundamentally incorrect because without a body you can't do the spiritual functions.
They are intimately linked.
And we've talked many times about the earliest heresies separating matter and spirit as if the matter is evil or dirty or no good.
And there's elements of theology that when they're taken in the extreme would suggest,
(14:28):
right that,
you know,
any sort of sexual contact between a husband and wife.
There was,
you know,
elements of the tradition that said that there was suspect that that was just necessary appropriation,
which I think is distorting its distorting the truth,
right?
So in the end,
if we say that,
then we have to remember that the body is me and therefore the biological sex I have been given is expressed through the body that corresponds with that sex,
(15:02):
which was a choice that God made.
I didn't and my parents didn't,
God did and that is me.
And therefore to suggest that somehow that body is at my disposal to do what I want with it as if it were not me is is a fundamental error and can lead to tremendous problems.
(15:27):
So that's the starting point.
But the theological principle is found in genesis.
So what when God created an M and Eve,
what did God do steve,
he created them male and female,
correct?
And what did he give to them?
(15:50):
What did he give to them?
They are made in the image were Amen Hallelujah,
say it again,
brother,
They were made in the image and likeness of God.
What does that mean?
What does that mean?
That's that's a fundamental principle in this.
What does it mean?
(16:11):
And you can describe it in many different ways,
but in fact,
one way to describe it would be to say that when God chose in his infinite grace to enter into the material created world,
that was of his own making the only worthy receptacle to do that was the human person,
(16:35):
body,
soul and spirit.
So we are literally the perfect vase to hold the life of God,
which means that the whole person is the receptacle for God's life,
not just his soul and his spirit.
(16:55):
So the body shares in the dignity of the image and likeness of God,
even though we say that God is pure spirit,
which he is.
But it shares in the dignity of the image and likeness of God because it is empowered.
Okay.
It is,
it is enlivened by the soul and spirit to be the way by which spiritual faculties can be expressed in the world unlike angels,
(17:23):
which we talked about last week.
So the entire person body,
soul and spirit is a temple of the Holy Spirit.
So the soul makes the living body which is pure matter,
makes it holy,
It makes it the vehicle of grace.
And that happens at the moment of conception where we believe were created by God and given a soul to animate a particular body which reflects the sex that God chose for us.
(17:54):
So let's stop there for a second.
Does that make sense so far?
Yes,
so far,
it all makes sense.
It's uh you know,
it's all it's step by step.
It kind of builds on each other.
Right?
So then,
so then even when the original sin happened,
we did not lose,
we were deformed,
(18:15):
okay,
But we did not lose the image,
the divine image in us.
Right?
So there's a basic dignity that even sin cannot take away.
And when they did sin and felt naked that became the beginning of the disconnect between the spirit and the body and that's why ST paul says we wore right between our soul,
(18:38):
what we want to do and what our flesh tells us all that imagery,
that feeling nakedness,
that disconnection is because sin has disordered what would have been and will be in heaven,
a perfect harmony between body and spirit.
That's why we believe that christ,
that's what we believe in the incarnation,
that the son of God,
the second person of the blessed trinity took on human flesh,
(19:01):
He didn't just come as a spirit or a ghost.
So when there's any conversation about the mutilation of the body,
it's gravely disordered for that reason and when there is a conversation that my sex and my expression of how I'm going to live my life can be totally disconnected,
(19:26):
it's it's disordered for that reason because I was created as a man.
I was created as a man and given this body soul and spirit by God so that it can be the receptacle of grace sharing in his dignity and to be with him forever.
(19:46):
So when there is this disconnect,
that process becomes that much harder for that reason.
The other interesting thing that we forget and I'll stop at this other one.
So then we can have,
you know,
more of a conversation is when you say,
when I say when the tradition says were made in the image and likeness of God,
(20:12):
the question is who is God?
And what does revelation say right about who God is?
What does the incarnation?
The coming of the second person of the,
into creation,
what does that say about God?
What it says about God is that God is more than one in him.
(20:38):
So what we're really saying is the human person is made into the image and likeness of God who is a divine community.
So therefore there is a fundamental relationship in God which is perfect,
the three persons of the blessed trinity,
perfect and therefore humanity reflecting that is called to go into community into relationship.
(21:07):
And that is why both biologically and spiritually.
He made them like you said before,
how did he make them in his image and likeness,
male and female?
He made them right.
So as God is radically relational,
so as human beings and therefore what that really means is when you speak of human nature truly in its most fundamental understanding human nature is not just male and it's not just female,
(21:41):
it is the union of male and female is the fullness of what it means to be human,
that neither man nor female,
male or female holds the fullness of it.
But because we're relational,
because God is relational together,
you have the fullness of it.
And that is why marriage is so fundamentally important in the life of our faith and why we always define marriage as a relationship between a man and a woman.
(22:10):
For this very reason that I'm speaking about now,
there's a conversation about friendship among men among women and so many other relationships,
but when we speak of marriage that is reflecting this basic principle being made in the image and likeness of God and to nature being fully understood,
revealed and realized in the union between a male and female,
(22:33):
which physiologically fit spiritually and psychologically fit.
And sometimes in society,
gender has been defined.
So um uh um unwaveringly.
So uh almost in a caricature that if a man shows compassion somehow he's not being manly,
(23:00):
what does that mean?
Or for women show some real strength of character that that's somehow not feminine?
What does that mean?
Right.
Right.
Because culture decided that these no,
I mean there's a complementarity don't please.
There is certainly there is.
But in God's eyes it's it's the complementarity of these two individuals falling in love,
(23:21):
enter into a covenant,
right?
And they complete each other.
Yeah.
So in a sense,
this conversation about gender alright is something that causes us to really reflect as a society,
but most especially even as a church about masculine and feminine identity,
(23:44):
and we can't divorce gender from sex.
That's the bottom line.
You can't.
But on the other hand,
to define gender and how it's expressed.
We also need not be rigid like we've been in the past in the sense that we want to just characterize people and say this is what a man should act and no other thing than that.
But that's kind of silly to because a man could be tender and compassionate and and and and and still be a man.
(24:09):
Right?
So anyway,
so let me just conclude by simply saying this.
So then for those individuals who have,
who are themselves struggling with this disconnect between their biological sex and the gender,
right?
Their expression of themselves,
right?
(24:30):
Or have Children or friends or brothers or sisters.
The first thing they have to realize that I would like to impress them on everyone,
including myself is that this is a pastoral situation that needs sensitivity,
that needs compassion,
that needs accompaniment.
Okay,
not judgment,
Right?
And the second is everything I've just described in a way that is accessible.
(24:53):
We have to enter into loving relationships with individuals struggling with this and be able to help them to understand some of this and to go even deeper into this so that their minds and their reflection,
they can try to try to deepen the understanding of why the church says what it says.
And then for some,
to be honest,
right,
(25:13):
there may be genuine need for a person,
a therapist or a counselor or someone to talk through some of the experiences that they've had and how they feel which a priest may not be competent to do,
or a parent may not be competent to do.
And as a church,
we need to make those resources available to people.
But but if if a person says right,
(25:35):
the church discriminates against those who are gender fluid.
Please God,
that is not true for every individual christian because the church doesn't in his teaching.
But individual christians cannot do that either.
And if a person says I can choose to do whatever I want.
Well our obligation as christians is not to choose whatever you want.
(25:59):
Our obligation is to choose what's good and right for ourselves and those around us.
And that's part of what this conversation really is all about.
So let me stop there for a second.
Yeah.
So we we actually need to go to a break.
But do you mind if we continue this on the other side of the world?
Okay.
Because I do have some questions for you because particularly about uh about teaching,
(26:25):
you know you started talking about almost like a christian anthropology and theology of the body.
So I have questions for you on the other side of the break.
But we need to go to a break.
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(28:21):
Welcome back to let me be frank on the veritas catholic network.
Having a very serious and really important and timely discussion on the issue of gender.
Um today with his excellency Bishop Caggiano.
Uh so excellency,
I love how you started by um reiterating the need to accompany those who are suffering from gender dysphoria and and their families really too.
(28:49):
That's job number one for us is definitely to care for those precious souls and to bring them along in love.
And in truth.
Um,
you you started to talk about,
I guess christian anthropology and theology of the body,
which really,
if you understand it,
it lays the foundation of understanding for us and our relationship with God with each other.
(29:12):
What are our sex and our gender means?
What I would like to ask you,
can you talk about effective ways about of how you as a public figure,
pastors,
teachers,
principals,
politicians,
and even me to a much smaller extent,
(29:32):
um,
can speak to the broader community about these issues.
Great question.
And this is all about pastoral strategy and the key to it is this idea of reasonable hope for accompanying someone to a greater truth.
(29:57):
Now,
you may say,
okay,
keji ana,
what are you talking about?
I think when you accompany someone in private and you accompany someone in a communal setting,
it's essentially different.
So,
for example,
If a person says,
(30:17):
you know,
at 14,
13,
10,
12,
whatever,
80,
whatever.
But let's say those in school,
I want to be known as I don't know,
we or whatever for a person in authority in a classroom setting,
to refer to that pronoun to that person takes on significance.
(30:42):
That is different than a person doing it in private.
Why?
Because there are young people also in that classroom who may understand that a teacher doing that for a particular child is a vote of confidence or acceptance or affirmation of that reality or that judgment and draw the fact come to the conclusion,
(31:02):
say,
well then,
okay,
then it's okay,
Right vs one on 1 in a private setting,
If the judgment is,
I need to,
I I want to build a relationship with this person,
and if I immediately say that I'm not going to use this pronoun with this person,
right?
In a private setting,
(31:22):
then how make how does that make it reasonably hopeful that they will listen to the truth that I hope to over time help them to understand effectively,
Right?
So part of what has to be understood here is any pastoral approach or strategy has to be tailored to the individual situation at hand and be able to teach in public.
(31:48):
We always have to be unambiguous about teaching in public,
right?
In any forum,
in any classroom,
in any pulpit,
we have to teach the truth of the church's teaching.
But when you are in different contexts and a person is struggling,
you don't,
you do not disavow the truth or deny the truth or hide the truth.
(32:12):
But like a maze,
there will be a time when you can address the truth to the person who can effectively hear it,
but for the moment,
you have to figure out how do you accompany the person so that they don't feel either judged initially or just walk away.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
It does.
(32:32):
It does.
But I guess.
Uh so um okay,
so let me let me ask uh going,
how how would you suggest that parents talk to their kids before they get to that point?
Yeah.
(32:53):
See it's extremely important.
And there's another factor here that's complicating this dramatically.
And the other factor is that we live in a society where the new or the exotic is the preferred.
So there are lots of young people who are entering into this arena simply because it they're literally being pushed.
(33:24):
If I could be that strong pushed or being enticed or encouraged to explore the novelty,
the newness,
the this new option you have this new choice you could make in your life at an age where quite frankly,
at least in my judgment and I could be wrong at an age that's younger and younger when they're not even quite cognizant of what gender even is.
(33:48):
Yes.
And that for a parent,
I can't imagine how complicated that is because there's always,
now you have Children.
I don't write steve,
but I mean there's always the dynamic that a child as they grow up.
You're supposed to say that.
I mean there's always a bit of a no like disconnected we at least I had it with my parents.
(34:12):
I mean maybe I'm this public confession,
but I mean they were they are,
you know,
my family particularly my father would not say something that's so stop.
Of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
So you're old fashioned,
you don't know what exactly.
And that's part of I guess human nature after Adam and Eve,
but,
but but in this case it's an excellent question of how a parent can actually address this question with a son or daughter that may actually already be struggling with it because they,
(34:46):
they just just one day come home and announce that you know,
I want to be known as jim instead of jane or which happens or are in company with young people who are struggling with this.
And how do you actually embrace digital?
I don't have a simple answer to that because I think in the end it's,
it's like everything else,
(35:06):
it may be that a parent is not as equipped to do it as a teacher is or a friend is because it depends on the dynamic that the child has with his or her parents to begin with.
It's complicated isn't?
It is?
It is.
So I'll tell a quick story early this summer.
(35:29):
Uh,
the lease went away on a short trip with another family,
another great family and we went out to our first dinner.
Um,
and I had my back to the restaurant,
my daughter who had just turned 13 and the other family has three daughters.
Their youngest daughter was about 10 or so they're sitting across from me facing me and we had just sat down a couple of minutes in.
(35:56):
And suddenly I see my daughter and their youngest daughter,
their jaws dropped and they were staring at something behind me.
So I was like um they kept staring and so I turned around and I looked and it was it was a man,
very muscular,
square draw,
strong,
strong look.
Um uh crew cut,
(36:19):
he was wearing a skirt and makeup and they just,
my daughter and and the the other families,
daughters are admittedly a little sheltered,
so they just had never even conceived of this before.
So I turned and I looked and I saw it and I said I thought to myself,
oh gosh,
you know what do I say?
(36:40):
So I just said,
I just said,
girls,
are you looking at that man behind me?
And they said yes,
and I said,
okay,
don't stare.
And I said,
isn't it sad?
He must be confused about something.
(37:01):
And then the look of I was almost relief on their faces,
they were like,
oh right,
he's confused.
Mhm.
I didn't know,
I mean,
I don't know if that's right or not.
I just that's just what the first thing that came to me.
Right,
right.
First of all,
my friend,
it's not a question of judging the what you did at the moment,
(37:22):
because at the moment you're spontaneously gonna respond as best you can in love for your daughter and you know,
in in support for these other young girls.
I mean,
in the end,
what you said is is half is half the story.
And it's correct that the man is in fact objectively confusing his sex with his gender.
(37:44):
What what the young girls need to understand is,
but for that man,
he does not consider himself confused.
And therefore,
we could immediately say,
well,
then therefore then therefore the judgment is that this guy is crazy,
(38:05):
uh ill lost.
And that's where we need to stop before you get to that point.
Because then for you or whoever is going to sit with this man and actually please God because of our love for this man.
Open a conversation to discuss the experiences he's had and all the rest and why he has come to this conclusion.
(38:27):
And and how there may be another path,
right?
You can enter into that with the judgment from the first go,
because that would not establish the relationship for him to effectively hear the truth.
So you are correct.
What you said is absolutely correct,
right?
And I think my suggestion would have been if I had been there is that would have been the moment after the meal with your daughter and this other couple with that is to then go further and say,
(38:57):
so,
let's talk about why do you think this could be why would a man who obviously seems to be so strong,
why would he be in this place to come to this conclusion?
And that's something that the church can help him with to think through,
right?
And and if there's healing to be had to have healing,
(39:19):
right?
So that so that they come to understand that the role for a christian is not necessarily to um to say well,
if this is what he wants to do,
then I wash my hands and move on.
Yeah,
sure.
And so so to your point,
God gave you an opportunity to raise this question and the way you handled it at the restaurant seemed to me to me to make perfect sense.
(39:47):
And maybe an occasion can arise when you could resurrect it,
going to the next step,
right?
So then for the benefit of me and my daughter and the next step and we say,
I say,
you know,
why do you think he was confused in that way?
What what would I tell her?
The answer is?
I don't know because I don't know him,
(40:09):
but but I hope someone loves him enough to ask what has why has he come to this conclusion?
But then this would be the opportunity steve to talk about.
Um some of what I talked about in very simple terms about,
we're made in God's image.
That means that includes our body that matches the sex God gave us when we were created and were meant to be a relationship as he is in relationship and the complement of a man and woman completes that simple.
(40:36):
Something simple like that.
Okay.
Yeah,
yeah,
that makes sense.
I you know,
one of the things that I think is alarming and frightening is and you you alluded to it a few minutes ago.
Excellency is the force that seems to be behind this movement.
Maybe even the broader sexual revolution in general.
(40:58):
It's gone from simply asking for acceptance of what they're doing to like this.
Like this aggressive demand of you know,
submission from everybody.
I don't know how to Yeah,
yeah.
No,
no.
I think you're absolutely on to a fundamental dynamic but forgive me for being so blunt here.
(41:20):
But that dynamic is everywhere.
That dynamic is everywhere in society.
Um,
if my life is all about me,
then I don't particularly care about you or what you have to say about me.
So when you bring that to a logical conclusion,
then whether it's this question or the question of anything that's perceived as human rights or the question of a choice over an unborn child or whether it is my political persuasion,
(41:52):
whether it is my economic status in the end.
If my life is all about me,
I don't care what you have to say about it.
Get in line to make sure I have what I want and we see it everywhere And it and you know what Steve the truth of the matter is if you look over the last 30,
(42:12):
40,
50 years,
there have been different social and economic and political waves in the ocean where we have crested because I want I've decided this is what I want and that's it,
ladies and gentlemen.
And this is just another example of it.
(42:33):
And the difficulty is if all of this and flow all of this assertion of my rights has is disconnected from reality from the objective reality,
you're creating a house of cards that eventually will completely collapse.
Yes.
And that's the danger.
And that is why I am saying what I am saying because we have two options here.
(43:00):
You have those christians and Catholics who say,
well let the cards fall,
let the whole thing collapse.
We're going to be a small remnant and then we'll rebuild society.
Or there are those who say it's our obligation as best we can in the world to prevent those cards from collapsing.
And B 11 because the collateral damage of all those individuals is too high a price to pay.
(43:26):
And of course I vote for number two,
I don't vote for number one.
I always vote for number two.
Yeah,
but that but that's why these these conversations are so important and they're so delicate and they need pastoral sensitivity and they need fidelity to the truth and they need accompaniment because frank Caggiano and steve lee and and mr spill a beeper.
Whoever else happens to be here are different people in different parts in this road and we got to walk with them to get them to the fullness of the truth.
(43:53):
Yes,
it feels like and you've talked about this a lot,
Excellency um You know,
that's your truth,
This is my truth.
Um And that's that's deeply ingrained in in part of the problem here.
Well,
when I put it this way,
steve it may be your truth.
(44:13):
My truth.
Your truth,
the other guy's truth,
but then there's reality,
right?
Yeah.
Which we can't even in in the in the social media made up world of,
you know,
I I say it enough times it's true.
No really isn't because then there's reality and and and and the body and the human person who's and his soul and spirit is a reality.
(44:39):
I mean,
it just is what it is.
Yeah.
That's inescapable.
Yeah.
Um I guess what I get,
I don't worked up is not the right word,
or maybe it is,
but I just this issue is so uh well it's packed with emotion on all sides,
but I'm really I'm really concerned about this um this push,
(45:04):
you know,
even in uh some public school systems and things just push to get kids like,
like just just pushing them and almost brainwashing them.
It starts in kindergarten even and and and they there's this this this perspective that parents are the enemy and you know,
(45:25):
the state is the friend and the ally.
Um Mhm.
Yeah,
and and the truth of the matter is um again,
that has been that way for a very long time.
So,
for example,
my friend at the turn of the 20th century,
when they know nothings didn't want Catholics in public school,
(45:48):
why did they not want Catholics in public school?
Right.
That's why we created the catholic school system.
But but in the end it was it was a clash of religion,
it was a clash of values,
right?
They know nothing party and wanted to keep public schools protestant with all of the basic premises that animate protestantism,
(46:14):
which are different than what animates Catholicism complementary but different.
So even now now they're secularists and secularists,
I've said many times is a religion,
secularism is a religion.
So in fact,
it's again another war among religions.
(46:37):
Yes.
And and to be honest,
if we're ever gonna get a way out of this culturally and societally out of the mess,
we have to rediscover philosophy.
We have to rediscover basic philosophical reasoning that asks fundamental questions about the nature of the human person,
the nature of truth,
(46:58):
right?
The nature of of community and communion,
so that we can start having an intelligent conversation even among people who don't share the same religions or do not share the same conclusions.
We don't have that the church does.
So once again,
as 11 in society,
we are to walk and be there present in all of these in these situations because it gives us an opportunity to bring people more fully to the truth.
(47:30):
Yes.
Yeah.
I love how you started off today's show really emphasizing that we need to accompany people in love and truth.
You need both.
You can't just have the love.
You can't just have the actually to tell the truth is to love actually,
without a doubt,
you can't do one without the other.
(47:51):
Right.
And,
and if you are making a judgment in a given situation that also allows you to accompany is fundamentally different than being judgmental.
That says,
you're not worth my time.
Fundamentally different.
(48:13):
It sounds also excellently like we need to re teach or teach better theology of the body in parishes and in schools and you know,
to parents.
I mean,
Yes,
we do.
Yes,
we do.
And quite frankly,
uh,
50 years ago,
(48:34):
40 years ago,
80 years ago,
70 years ago.
The culture kept people in a particular way of living behaving and acting that almost pre consciously conveyed this truth without them having to actually conceptualize it.
(48:54):
So this is the image you're on the highway.
The highway should do two things have guardrails and should have no potholes,
guardrails,
you go flying off,
you get killed,
potholes slow you down in a perfect world.
You have highways that are nice smooth,
flat guardrails to protect you.
You go on your merry way.
(49:16):
That's exactly what we're talking about is to be able to help the world understand what the guard rails are and to eliminate the potholes and many of those potholes are people who have come to the conclusion that no one loves me.
Certainly the church doesn't love me and don't tell me God loves me because all you people who believe,
(49:37):
where are you in my struggle.
So if we're really serious guardrails to the truth,
filling the potholes is love.
That's how you get people moving in the direction of jesus christ.
I love that image,
I love it.
Okay,
so I guess,
you know,
we have maybe two minutes before the break.
(49:58):
Did you want to kind of just give us a final thought,
final exhortation or challenge or?
Well,
the only thing,
it's,
it's basically information in the sense that we have begun this discussion in our diocese.
Oh,
good.
And we have engaged the leadership,
pastors,
dre's the teachers to try to come up with some guidance that eventually would also go to parents on this very complicated and sensitive issue to give everyone an opportunity to re acquaint themselves and reflect on the truth that the church believes,
(50:34):
which I kind of tried to give in very broad terms,
but also the pastoral tools to engage people and and to forge a way forward.
So hopefully in in the not too distant future,
I'd have more to say about this in a more in a more formalized way because it's it's too pressing an issue and too sensitive an issue to leave it just for everyone to figure out what they want to do on their own.
(51:03):
Mhm.
Okay,
so more to come.
Great awesome and I can tell your parents like me and ruler we really we really appreciate that because we feel bombarded.
Okay,
let's take let's take our final break and come back on the other side with a listener question,
(51:24):
this is let me be frank on the veritas catholic network on 13 50 A.
M.
One oh 3.9 FM.
And on your phone using the veritas catholic network mobile app,
be right back,
I'm steve lee from veritas catholic network and I just want to tell you quickly about the Connecticut catholic men's conference.
I've been going to this annual event for the past five years or so and it's just a fantastic day this year,
(51:45):
the conference is on saturday,
september 24th at Northwest Catholic high school in West Hartford.
It's an easy trip from anywhere in Connecticut and you'll be happy.
You went to spend the day with hundreds of your catholic brothers fellow men who are striving to be good fathers,
strong husbands and faithful Catholics.
The theme this year is the most holy Eucharist and the speakers are gonna be bishop frank Caggiano,
(52:08):
Father wade menaces.
Father larry richards and father chris taylor men,
it doesn't get much better.
There's also going to be mass adoration,
confession and fellowship again,
it's september 24th and you can go online to get more information or to register the website is C.
T.
Catholic men dot org.
(52:29):
Hope to see you there.
Welcome back to let me be frank on the veritas catholic network with bishop frank Caggiano excellency.
You know,
just before we get to the listener question,
I just wanna give a little shout out because this saturday september 3rd is my 22nd wedding anniversary.
(52:51):
So congratulations.
Thank you.
It's hard to hard to believe we've been married for 22 years.
Um I hope you're celebrating.
Yes of course.
Yeah,
I've got lots of stuff planned honey,
so don't worry.
Good for you,
you make sure.
(53:13):
Oh gosh,
alright so to the question uh here this came in um it says I know some folks who occasionally go to a national catholic church,
would Bishop Caggiano please address the differences and if going to one of these masses fulfills our sunday obligation.
Mhm.
(53:34):
First of all,
I appreciate the question because I had to do some homework to answer it.
Right?
So to put in a very succinct terms,
the national catholic church of which the polish national catholic church is probably the best known in the United States,
even in our diocese because there is a polish national catholic church in Stratford ST Josephs.
(53:59):
Okay they are a schismatic church,
what does that mean?
They are a church that has separated from Rome and it was born originally in Holland but what's interesting is while they do not accept the ultimate authority of the Pope in every other respect,
(54:20):
they have remained catholic.
So,
the sacraments are valid.
Their holy orders of the clergy are valid and and therefore those who attend those services in good faith do in fact,
fulfill their obligations.
Rome.
(54:42):
And the national catholic church have been in dialogue for a number of years to try to bring unity to reconcile the differences,
right?
But over the past 15 years,
those talks have not really amounted to much in the end.
If you had to say so,
what's the difference?
It's the obedience to the supreme pontiff,
right?
They don't recognize the leadership of the pope in an absolute way.
(55:07):
But in terms of faith creed and sacraments,
they are essentially no differences.
So that's the difference between the two.
It's a big problem,
though.
No,
of course it is.
You got to follow Peter and and and and right.
Because without a connection to the Universal Church,
(55:30):
without the ministry of Peter,
which is both guardian of the truth.
Most specially,
he is the person of unity.
He's the focal point of communion.
Your,
your orthodoxy,
your fidelity to the truth.
Can over time either remain authentic or begin to move away.
(55:53):
So,
it's almost like trying to navigate the ocean without a compass,
theoretically,
you could do it,
but it becomes harder and harder to do that's ultimately what the situation is.
You Yeah,
what a great question.
I had no idea there was even such thing as a national catholic.
Yeah,
that's great.
So,
no,
I knew of it,
(56:13):
I knew of the of the dialogue but but it gave me an opportunity to do good to,
to research which I appreciate.
Yeah,
awesome.
So if you have a question for bishop frank,
send it into us on social media or you can email questions at veritas catholic dot com.
Bishop frank,
Caggiano is on facebook instagram and twitter and so is veritas catholic network and thank you,
thank you to foundations and faith.
(56:35):
A grant from the Saint Therese fund for evangelization makes it possible for us to bring,
let me be frank to you foundations and faith is committed to supporting and transforming pastoral industries in the diocese of Bridgeport and you can learn more about their outstanding work at foundations in faith dot org.
Excellency thank you so much for this great teaching today.
(56:57):
Um and before you go,
I'll ask for your blessing.
Absolutely,
first of all ask a blessing upon you and rule up because your anniversary,
thank you the name of the father son and the holy spirit amen in our poverty.
Lord jesus.
We come before you asking for your abundant blessings that in all the challenges we face.
(57:19):
We remain faithful to you and to the truth you have revealed with loving hearts that accompany all of our sisters and brothers to heaven In a special way.
I ask you to bless Steve and ruler as they celebrate their 22nd wedding anniversary,
continue to bless them with many,
many happy years of health and joy and peace with their Children and all those whom they love.
(57:42):
We ask this in the name of the father,
the son and of the Holy Spirit.
Amen Right,
enjoy your,
enjoy your weekend.
Thank you so much Excellency you,
too.
Alright.
All the best.
Okay?
today.
This is an important and difficult conversation in our schools and hospitals.
It seems like every corner of society.
There's an aggressive push of gender ideology that runs counter to christian anthropology and our understanding of the theology of the body.
(00:21):
Bishop Caggiano is going to speak about this today on,
let me be frank.
How do we discuss this one on one with folks or in our schools,
in our parishes and with our loved ones and friends.
Please keep your radio right here at 13 50 a.
M.
And one oh 3.9 FM.
Or keep listening on your phone using the veritas mobile app.
(00:43):
The app is available at the apple app store,
the google play store or at veritas catholic dot com and were able to bring let me be frank to you.
Thanks to our sponsor foundations and faith foundations and faith embraces innovative approaches to funding pastoral care programs in the Diocese of Bridgeport Resources,
focus on energizing lifelong faith formation and discipleship and fostering a commitment to justice and accompaniment with our most vulnerable from seminarians to retired priests,
(01:13):
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The reach is broad.
The impact is meaningful for more information,
visit them on the web at foundations in faith dot org.
Welcome back everybody to let me be frank on the veritas catholic network.
I'm steve lee and it is my great pleasure as always.
(01:34):
To introduce Bishop frank Caggiano.
Good morning.
My friends were using new technology here today.
Uh,
new technology.
Hopefully it works out pretty well.
Let's hope so.
Um,
so you know,
to,
to finish off the quiet summer,
which actually was not a quiet summer for you or for me.
(01:54):
Yeah,
but,
you know,
people are going back to school Excellency,
I kinda just want to jump into it because um,
there's there's,
I guess this subject is a,
is a tough one.
It's and it's more and more important these days,
and so this is,
you know,
how to address gender issues in our schools and our society and with loved ones and friends these days.
(02:23):
So,
um,
I know it's quite an important topic,
right?
Yes,
yep,
yep.
So,
you know,
I guess with that,
let me just turn it right over to you so we can get your,
you know,
wisdom and your guidance here.
Well,
I mean,
well,
first of all,
I think this is a timely topic and it's one that is complicated and one that needs discernment and both fidelity to what the church teaches,
(02:53):
as well as pastoral sensitivity for those individuals who are struggling with this issue.
So,
you know,
it's not going this is not a reflection simply on what the church believes,
which we will do,
but also we need to to figure out the appropriate ways by which we can accompany people walk with people so that they do not feel judged,
(03:18):
but they do feel that someone is with them,
who cares for them,
but also is leading them to what we believe is the truth.
What we know is the truth.
So that's part of it.
And I gave remarks on this topic to the teachers of the archdiocese of philadelphia in March,
(03:39):
and I gave them also to our teachers at their convocation that started the school year.
So some of what I'm going to share along the way is things that I shared with the teachers.
So,
to your point about school,
but I think they're relevant to parents and obviously to priests and pastoral ministers and just anyone church.
(03:59):
So we're gonna go like step by step and we're gonna pause to make sure that it makes sense and ask questions or whatever.
But the first is that we have to recognize that a person's experience and a person's feelings and the when I'm going to call the objective situation,
(04:22):
a person may be in do not always match,
right?
And therefore,
from our perspective,
if a person feels as if or they have this experience of which there's some disassociation between their biological sex and their gender,
right,
Then we our position is to recognize that that's the fact for that person,
(04:49):
right?
And immediately there are some who would say,
well,
that's ridiculous,
that's silly grow up.
But that's not the case.
I mean,
there is a very significant psychological condition right of gender dysphoria where you don't have,
there is literally a disconnect right and it's not a choice.
(05:10):
So we have to recognize that that's serious situation and we have to be pastorally sensitive to that.
So part of the pastoral approach is you start where the person is not where you think the person should be and you need to respect that what they feel if they feel it is real for them.
But again,
(05:30):
that doesn't absolve the need to have this conversation accompany this person to the truth that we understand was revealed by the Lord jesus.
Right.
So does that make sense?
Right.
Right.
And the second is and this may be in this.
Again,
I would invite people our listeners to think through a bit.
There is a difference between biological sex and gender,
(05:55):
at least in most people's understanding the difference being that your biological sex is what you are.
In fact born with and it is forever who you are.
Our genetic composition is never changed no matter what else you hear in society.
Right?
So we talk about we speak about the chromosomes X,
(06:17):
X,
X,
Y,
all the rest that is forever who we are.
That's our biological sex.
Right?
Okay.
Gender is the expression of the of one's biological sex in society.
And that's an interesting that's an interesting area which has caused some of this confusion and some of this controversy because in that expression of our biological sex there have always been parameters that have helped us to understand,
(06:47):
right or distinguish between the two and much of that is cultural and much of that is just logical,
right?
But do you remember at least I remember you may be too young.
You know the whole thing about tom boys when a girl acted like a boy,
she was considered a tomboy because there was almost a spoken cultural norm that said you're not supposed to act that way.
(07:11):
But in fact a young girl is a girl alright.
And she's expressing herself,
her her her femininity in a way that kind of challenge some of the cultural norms.
Right?
So when we speak about gender dysphoria,
we speak about,
(07:31):
you know,
gender fluidity.
We're really talking about at least for us as christians,
that we have to make a distinction between biological sex and gender and the sex is certainly there and the gender we believe,
right,
Which is the expression of our sex should always correspond with your biological sex.
It cannot be disassociated with your biological because it's a contradiction in life,
(07:55):
but that there's a distinction I think it's important to remember right so far makes sense.
Okay then there's the third principle we have to remember and that's the story of a media.
So,
you and I have spoken about the story of the mayor's for a very long time many,
many times.
It's a beautiful story right after the resurrection and how the Lord brings his disciples to turn from the path they had chosen,
(08:22):
which was out of disappointment and fear and perhaps some level of anger back to the mission that they had before.
They saw the horror of the passion and death of jesus right now the principal,
there is the principal I've spoken about before,
we need to consider here as well,
(08:45):
jesus walked with the disciples,
the two disciples in the wrong direction for period of time because the Lord knew that there was reasonable hope that the person,
those two disciples opening in their hearts to the word,
to him,
to his presence would come to a moment in the breaking of the bread where they would recognize they were going in the wrong direction and turn around.
(09:13):
Now that reasonable hope was reasonable because the Lord knew remember his God made man so he knew their hearts,
you and I do not know other people's hearts as much as we would like to think we do,
we don't,
so part of what I'm going to suggest is as we try to articulate for a person,
a group,
(09:33):
the society,
what the church teaches because that will not change.
We're gonna have to have the pastoral courage to walk with people and engage with people who will disagree with it who are,
I might say symbolically walking in the wrong direction from the direction we would hope they would walk,
but we do it because we do have the hope and it's reasonable that if we do walk and build relationships and have conversations and help them to understand the truth in an effective way that more and more of those individuals will be touched by the truth,
(10:12):
and then it's our obligation to help them to live the truth as best they can.
So that can get messy because depending on the attitude that the person has,
they may say,
oh look at this one while he's hanging out with these sort of people or he's doing that,
or he seems to be,
you know,
turning a blind eye to this or that or the other,
(10:33):
which is,
you know,
which is a judgmental attitude from the,
from the outside,
but the person who's the pastoral minister,
whether that could be someone's parent,
pastor,
director,
religious ed teacher coach who have a friend.
Their intent is not to say,
well,
you know,
you have made this decision and I who love you,
(10:56):
right?
I'm just gonna accept it and just move on.
Yes,
I accept you,
I love you.
I recognize your feeling,
I recognize,
but I also want to engage you in a greater truth and I'm gonna caution everyone on this podcast to think through that when you see something like that,
you know,
don't jump,
don't jump to judgment,
(11:18):
right?
Because you don't know in the end what the dynamic is and what the intent is because the intent,
maybe the same intent,
you have only it's the person who's engaging someone else in the messiness of life,
right?
Right?
Yes,
Okay,
so that's the end of that homily.
Now we can talk about.
So what does the church teach?
(11:40):
And part of what the church teaches rests with the answer to the question,
what makes a human person human?
And again,
we've talked about this before,
so this is kind of like repetition,
which is the mother mother of all learning.
If you were to ask the average person in the contemporary world,
(12:04):
in this secular,
post christian world,
what makes a human person human many times,
maybe using this word,
these words are not using their words,
they would say that a human person is a spirit is a soul is a center,
you know,
in more classical terms of subjectivity,
(12:25):
right?
That I what makes I and I and they understand that in spiritual terms as my ability to make choices,
ability to be free,
ability to know who I am,
and ability to give myself over into love.
That is what they believe a human person is.
And in fact that is part of what makes a human person a person that is why we are not animals that are irrational because a dog,
(12:57):
a cat,
a whale,
whomever an elephant in particular have feelings.
You can see tenderness in a a mother elephant for her child.
That is absolutely stunning,
right?
That's why I do all that stuff,
watch National Geographic and which I love that stuff and and BBC Earth and Earth to and because you see the animals in your city.
(13:24):
So,
wow,
I mean,
this is just their protective,
they're they seem loving in some sense and like an analogous sense,
but in fact they are not loving as we love.
That's the essential difference.
So,
so the definition that most moderns would not perhaps,
you know,
kind of explain in those words,
(13:44):
but but actually operate out of we we would say yes,
but but there's more than that,
which is the body,
which is the instrument through which you can act be free and love,
right?
So in a world that says,
my body is not essentially me,
(14:04):
that is fundamentally incorrect because without a body you can't do the spiritual functions.
They are intimately linked.
And we've talked many times about the earliest heresies separating matter and spirit as if the matter is evil or dirty or no good.
And there's elements of theology that when they're taken in the extreme would suggest,
(14:28):
right that,
you know,
any sort of sexual contact between a husband and wife.
There was,
you know,
elements of the tradition that said that there was suspect that that was just necessary appropriation,
which I think is distorting its distorting the truth,
right?
So in the end,
if we say that,
then we have to remember that the body is me and therefore the biological sex I have been given is expressed through the body that corresponds with that sex,
(15:02):
which was a choice that God made.
I didn't and my parents didn't,
God did and that is me.
And therefore to suggest that somehow that body is at my disposal to do what I want with it as if it were not me is is a fundamental error and can lead to tremendous problems.
(15:27):
So that's the starting point.
But the theological principle is found in genesis.
So what when God created an M and Eve,
what did God do steve,
he created them male and female,
correct?
And what did he give to them?
(15:50):
What did he give to them?
They are made in the image were Amen Hallelujah,
say it again,
brother,
They were made in the image and likeness of God.
What does that mean?
What does that mean?
That's that's a fundamental principle in this.
What does it mean?
(16:11):
And you can describe it in many different ways,
but in fact,
one way to describe it would be to say that when God chose in his infinite grace to enter into the material created world,
that was of his own making the only worthy receptacle to do that was the human person,
(16:35):
body,
soul and spirit.
So we are literally the perfect vase to hold the life of God,
which means that the whole person is the receptacle for God's life,
not just his soul and his spirit.
(16:55):
So the body shares in the dignity of the image and likeness of God,
even though we say that God is pure spirit,
which he is.
But it shares in the dignity of the image and likeness of God because it is empowered.
Okay.
It is,
it is enlivened by the soul and spirit to be the way by which spiritual faculties can be expressed in the world unlike angels,
(17:23):
which we talked about last week.
So the entire person body,
soul and spirit is a temple of the Holy Spirit.
So the soul makes the living body which is pure matter,
makes it holy,
It makes it the vehicle of grace.
And that happens at the moment of conception where we believe were created by God and given a soul to animate a particular body which reflects the sex that God chose for us.
(17:54):
So let's stop there for a second.
Does that make sense so far?
Yes,
so far,
it all makes sense.
It's uh you know,
it's all it's step by step.
It kind of builds on each other.
Right?
So then,
so then even when the original sin happened,
we did not lose,
we were deformed,
(18:15):
okay,
But we did not lose the image,
the divine image in us.
Right?
So there's a basic dignity that even sin cannot take away.
And when they did sin and felt naked that became the beginning of the disconnect between the spirit and the body and that's why ST paul says we wore right between our soul,
(18:38):
what we want to do and what our flesh tells us all that imagery,
that feeling nakedness,
that disconnection is because sin has disordered what would have been and will be in heaven,
a perfect harmony between body and spirit.
That's why we believe that christ,
that's what we believe in the incarnation,
that the son of God,
the second person of the blessed trinity took on human flesh,
(19:01):
He didn't just come as a spirit or a ghost.
So when there's any conversation about the mutilation of the body,
it's gravely disordered for that reason and when there is a conversation that my sex and my expression of how I'm going to live my life can be totally disconnected,
(19:26):
it's it's disordered for that reason because I was created as a man.
I was created as a man and given this body soul and spirit by God so that it can be the receptacle of grace sharing in his dignity and to be with him forever.
(19:46):
So when there is this disconnect,
that process becomes that much harder for that reason.
The other interesting thing that we forget and I'll stop at this other one.
So then we can have,
you know,
more of a conversation is when you say,
when I say when the tradition says were made in the image and likeness of God,
(20:12):
the question is who is God?
And what does revelation say right about who God is?
What does the incarnation?
The coming of the second person of the,
into creation,
what does that say about God?
What it says about God is that God is more than one in him.
(20:38):
So what we're really saying is the human person is made into the image and likeness of God who is a divine community.
So therefore there is a fundamental relationship in God which is perfect,
the three persons of the blessed trinity,
perfect and therefore humanity reflecting that is called to go into community into relationship.
(21:07):
And that is why both biologically and spiritually.
He made them like you said before,
how did he make them in his image and likeness,
male and female?
He made them right.
So as God is radically relational,
so as human beings and therefore what that really means is when you speak of human nature truly in its most fundamental understanding human nature is not just male and it's not just female,
(21:41):
it is the union of male and female is the fullness of what it means to be human,
that neither man nor female,
male or female holds the fullness of it.
But because we're relational,
because God is relational together,
you have the fullness of it.
And that is why marriage is so fundamentally important in the life of our faith and why we always define marriage as a relationship between a man and a woman.
(22:10):
For this very reason that I'm speaking about now,
there's a conversation about friendship among men among women and so many other relationships,
but when we speak of marriage that is reflecting this basic principle being made in the image and likeness of God and to nature being fully understood,
revealed and realized in the union between a male and female,
(22:33):
which physiologically fit spiritually and psychologically fit.
And sometimes in society,
gender has been defined.
So um uh um unwaveringly.
So uh almost in a caricature that if a man shows compassion somehow he's not being manly,
(23:00):
what does that mean?
Or for women show some real strength of character that that's somehow not feminine?
What does that mean?
Right.
Right.
Because culture decided that these no,
I mean there's a complementarity don't please.
There is certainly there is.
But in God's eyes it's it's the complementarity of these two individuals falling in love,
(23:21):
enter into a covenant,
right?
And they complete each other.
Yeah.
So in a sense,
this conversation about gender alright is something that causes us to really reflect as a society,
but most especially even as a church about masculine and feminine identity,
(23:44):
and we can't divorce gender from sex.
That's the bottom line.
You can't.
But on the other hand,
to define gender and how it's expressed.
We also need not be rigid like we've been in the past in the sense that we want to just characterize people and say this is what a man should act and no other thing than that.
But that's kind of silly to because a man could be tender and compassionate and and and and and still be a man.
(24:09):
Right?
So anyway,
so let me just conclude by simply saying this.
So then for those individuals who have,
who are themselves struggling with this disconnect between their biological sex and the gender,
right?
Their expression of themselves,
right?
(24:30):
Or have Children or friends or brothers or sisters.
The first thing they have to realize that I would like to impress them on everyone,
including myself is that this is a pastoral situation that needs sensitivity,
that needs compassion,
that needs accompaniment.
Okay,
not judgment,
Right?
And the second is everything I've just described in a way that is accessible.
(24:53):
We have to enter into loving relationships with individuals struggling with this and be able to help them to understand some of this and to go even deeper into this so that their minds and their reflection,
they can try to try to deepen the understanding of why the church says what it says.
And then for some,
to be honest,
right,
(25:13):
there may be genuine need for a person,
a therapist or a counselor or someone to talk through some of the experiences that they've had and how they feel which a priest may not be competent to do,
or a parent may not be competent to do.
And as a church,
we need to make those resources available to people.
But but if if a person says right,
(25:35):
the church discriminates against those who are gender fluid.
Please God,
that is not true for every individual christian because the church doesn't in his teaching.
But individual christians cannot do that either.
And if a person says I can choose to do whatever I want.
Well our obligation as christians is not to choose whatever you want.
(25:59):
Our obligation is to choose what's good and right for ourselves and those around us.
And that's part of what this conversation really is all about.
So let me stop there for a second.
Yeah.
So we we actually need to go to a break.
But do you mind if we continue this on the other side of the world?
Okay.
Because I do have some questions for you because particularly about uh about teaching,
(26:25):
you know you started talking about almost like a christian anthropology and theology of the body.
So I have questions for you on the other side of the break.
But we need to go to a break.
This is,
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(28:21):
Welcome back to let me be frank on the veritas catholic network.
Having a very serious and really important and timely discussion on the issue of gender.
Um today with his excellency Bishop Caggiano.
Uh so excellency,
I love how you started by um reiterating the need to accompany those who are suffering from gender dysphoria and and their families really too.
(28:49):
That's job number one for us is definitely to care for those precious souls and to bring them along in love.
And in truth.
Um,
you you started to talk about,
I guess christian anthropology and theology of the body,
which really,
if you understand it,
it lays the foundation of understanding for us and our relationship with God with each other.
(29:12):
What are our sex and our gender means?
What I would like to ask you,
can you talk about effective ways about of how you as a public figure,
pastors,
teachers,
principals,
politicians,
and even me to a much smaller extent,
(29:32):
um,
can speak to the broader community about these issues.
Great question.
And this is all about pastoral strategy and the key to it is this idea of reasonable hope for accompanying someone to a greater truth.
(29:57):
Now,
you may say,
okay,
keji ana,
what are you talking about?
I think when you accompany someone in private and you accompany someone in a communal setting,
it's essentially different.
So,
for example,
If a person says,
(30:17):
you know,
at 14,
13,
10,
12,
whatever,
80,
whatever.
But let's say those in school,
I want to be known as I don't know,
we or whatever for a person in authority in a classroom setting,
to refer to that pronoun to that person takes on significance.
(30:42):
That is different than a person doing it in private.
Why?
Because there are young people also in that classroom who may understand that a teacher doing that for a particular child is a vote of confidence or acceptance or affirmation of that reality or that judgment and draw the fact come to the conclusion,
(31:02):
say,
well then,
okay,
then it's okay,
Right vs one on 1 in a private setting,
If the judgment is,
I need to,
I I want to build a relationship with this person,
and if I immediately say that I'm not going to use this pronoun with this person,
right?
In a private setting,
(31:22):
then how make how does that make it reasonably hopeful that they will listen to the truth that I hope to over time help them to understand effectively,
Right?
So part of what has to be understood here is any pastoral approach or strategy has to be tailored to the individual situation at hand and be able to teach in public.
(31:48):
We always have to be unambiguous about teaching in public,
right?
In any forum,
in any classroom,
in any pulpit,
we have to teach the truth of the church's teaching.
But when you are in different contexts and a person is struggling,
you don't,
you do not disavow the truth or deny the truth or hide the truth.
(32:12):
But like a maze,
there will be a time when you can address the truth to the person who can effectively hear it,
but for the moment,
you have to figure out how do you accompany the person so that they don't feel either judged initially or just walk away.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
It does.
(32:32):
It does.
But I guess.
Uh so um okay,
so let me let me ask uh going,
how how would you suggest that parents talk to their kids before they get to that point?
Yeah.
(32:53):
See it's extremely important.
And there's another factor here that's complicating this dramatically.
And the other factor is that we live in a society where the new or the exotic is the preferred.
So there are lots of young people who are entering into this arena simply because it they're literally being pushed.
(33:24):
If I could be that strong pushed or being enticed or encouraged to explore the novelty,
the newness,
the this new option you have this new choice you could make in your life at an age where quite frankly,
at least in my judgment and I could be wrong at an age that's younger and younger when they're not even quite cognizant of what gender even is.
(33:48):
Yes.
And that for a parent,
I can't imagine how complicated that is because there's always,
now you have Children.
I don't write steve,
but I mean there's always the dynamic that a child as they grow up.
You're supposed to say that.
I mean there's always a bit of a no like disconnected we at least I had it with my parents.
(34:12):
I mean maybe I'm this public confession,
but I mean they were they are,
you know,
my family particularly my father would not say something that's so stop.
Of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
So you're old fashioned,
you don't know what exactly.
And that's part of I guess human nature after Adam and Eve,
but,
but but in this case it's an excellent question of how a parent can actually address this question with a son or daughter that may actually already be struggling with it because they,
(34:46):
they just just one day come home and announce that you know,
I want to be known as jim instead of jane or which happens or are in company with young people who are struggling with this.
And how do you actually embrace digital?
I don't have a simple answer to that because I think in the end it's,
it's like everything else,
(35:06):
it may be that a parent is not as equipped to do it as a teacher is or a friend is because it depends on the dynamic that the child has with his or her parents to begin with.
It's complicated isn't?
It is?
It is.
So I'll tell a quick story early this summer.
(35:29):
Uh,
the lease went away on a short trip with another family,
another great family and we went out to our first dinner.
Um,
and I had my back to the restaurant,
my daughter who had just turned 13 and the other family has three daughters.
Their youngest daughter was about 10 or so they're sitting across from me facing me and we had just sat down a couple of minutes in.
(35:56):
And suddenly I see my daughter and their youngest daughter,
their jaws dropped and they were staring at something behind me.
So I was like um they kept staring and so I turned around and I looked and it was it was a man,
very muscular,
square draw,
strong,
strong look.
Um uh crew cut,
(36:19):
he was wearing a skirt and makeup and they just,
my daughter and and the the other families,
daughters are admittedly a little sheltered,
so they just had never even conceived of this before.
So I turned and I looked and I saw it and I said I thought to myself,
oh gosh,
you know what do I say?
(36:40):
So I just said,
I just said,
girls,
are you looking at that man behind me?
And they said yes,
and I said,
okay,
don't stare.
And I said,
isn't it sad?
He must be confused about something.
(37:01):
And then the look of I was almost relief on their faces,
they were like,
oh right,
he's confused.
Mhm.
I didn't know,
I mean,
I don't know if that's right or not.
I just that's just what the first thing that came to me.
Right,
right.
First of all,
my friend,
it's not a question of judging the what you did at the moment,
(37:22):
because at the moment you're spontaneously gonna respond as best you can in love for your daughter and you know,
in in support for these other young girls.
I mean,
in the end,
what you said is is half is half the story.
And it's correct that the man is in fact objectively confusing his sex with his gender.
(37:44):
What what the young girls need to understand is,
but for that man,
he does not consider himself confused.
And therefore,
we could immediately say,
well,
then therefore then therefore the judgment is that this guy is crazy,
(38:05):
uh ill lost.
And that's where we need to stop before you get to that point.
Because then for you or whoever is going to sit with this man and actually please God because of our love for this man.
Open a conversation to discuss the experiences he's had and all the rest and why he has come to this conclusion.
(38:27):
And and how there may be another path,
right?
You can enter into that with the judgment from the first go,
because that would not establish the relationship for him to effectively hear the truth.
So you are correct.
What you said is absolutely correct,
right?
And I think my suggestion would have been if I had been there is that would have been the moment after the meal with your daughter and this other couple with that is to then go further and say,
(38:57):
so,
let's talk about why do you think this could be why would a man who obviously seems to be so strong,
why would he be in this place to come to this conclusion?
And that's something that the church can help him with to think through,
right?
And and if there's healing to be had to have healing,
(39:19):
right?
So that so that they come to understand that the role for a christian is not necessarily to um to say well,
if this is what he wants to do,
then I wash my hands and move on.
Yeah,
sure.
And so so to your point,
God gave you an opportunity to raise this question and the way you handled it at the restaurant seemed to me to me to make perfect sense.
(39:47):
And maybe an occasion can arise when you could resurrect it,
going to the next step,
right?
So then for the benefit of me and my daughter and the next step and we say,
I say,
you know,
why do you think he was confused in that way?
What what would I tell her?
The answer is?
I don't know because I don't know him,
(40:09):
but but I hope someone loves him enough to ask what has why has he come to this conclusion?
But then this would be the opportunity steve to talk about.
Um some of what I talked about in very simple terms about,
we're made in God's image.
That means that includes our body that matches the sex God gave us when we were created and were meant to be a relationship as he is in relationship and the complement of a man and woman completes that simple.
(40:36):
Something simple like that.
Okay.
Yeah,
yeah,
that makes sense.
I you know,
one of the things that I think is alarming and frightening is and you you alluded to it a few minutes ago.
Excellency is the force that seems to be behind this movement.
Maybe even the broader sexual revolution in general.
(40:58):
It's gone from simply asking for acceptance of what they're doing to like this.
Like this aggressive demand of you know,
submission from everybody.
I don't know how to Yeah,
yeah.
No,
no.
I think you're absolutely on to a fundamental dynamic but forgive me for being so blunt here.
(41:20):
But that dynamic is everywhere.
That dynamic is everywhere in society.
Um,
if my life is all about me,
then I don't particularly care about you or what you have to say about me.
So when you bring that to a logical conclusion,
then whether it's this question or the question of anything that's perceived as human rights or the question of a choice over an unborn child or whether it is my political persuasion,
(41:52):
whether it is my economic status in the end.
If my life is all about me,
I don't care what you have to say about it.
Get in line to make sure I have what I want and we see it everywhere And it and you know what Steve the truth of the matter is if you look over the last 30,
(42:12):
40,
50 years,
there have been different social and economic and political waves in the ocean where we have crested because I want I've decided this is what I want and that's it,
ladies and gentlemen.
And this is just another example of it.
(42:33):
And the difficulty is if all of this and flow all of this assertion of my rights has is disconnected from reality from the objective reality,
you're creating a house of cards that eventually will completely collapse.
Yes.
And that's the danger.
And that is why I am saying what I am saying because we have two options here.
(43:00):
You have those christians and Catholics who say,
well let the cards fall,
let the whole thing collapse.
We're going to be a small remnant and then we'll rebuild society.
Or there are those who say it's our obligation as best we can in the world to prevent those cards from collapsing.
And B 11 because the collateral damage of all those individuals is too high a price to pay.
(43:26):
And of course I vote for number two,
I don't vote for number one.
I always vote for number two.
Yeah,
but that but that's why these these conversations are so important and they're so delicate and they need pastoral sensitivity and they need fidelity to the truth and they need accompaniment because frank Caggiano and steve lee and and mr spill a beeper.
Whoever else happens to be here are different people in different parts in this road and we got to walk with them to get them to the fullness of the truth.
(43:53):
Yes,
it feels like and you've talked about this a lot,
Excellency um You know,
that's your truth,
This is my truth.
Um And that's that's deeply ingrained in in part of the problem here.
Well,
when I put it this way,
steve it may be your truth.
(44:13):
My truth.
Your truth,
the other guy's truth,
but then there's reality,
right?
Yeah.
Which we can't even in in the in the social media made up world of,
you know,
I I say it enough times it's true.
No really isn't because then there's reality and and and and the body and the human person who's and his soul and spirit is a reality.
(44:39):
I mean,
it just is what it is.
Yeah.
That's inescapable.
Yeah.
Um I guess what I get,
I don't worked up is not the right word,
or maybe it is,
but I just this issue is so uh well it's packed with emotion on all sides,
but I'm really I'm really concerned about this um this push,
(45:04):
you know,
even in uh some public school systems and things just push to get kids like,
like just just pushing them and almost brainwashing them.
It starts in kindergarten even and and and they there's this this this perspective that parents are the enemy and you know,
(45:25):
the state is the friend and the ally.
Um Mhm.
Yeah,
and and the truth of the matter is um again,
that has been that way for a very long time.
So,
for example,
my friend at the turn of the 20th century,
when they know nothings didn't want Catholics in public school,
(45:48):
why did they not want Catholics in public school?
Right.
That's why we created the catholic school system.
But but in the end it was it was a clash of religion,
it was a clash of values,
right?
They know nothing party and wanted to keep public schools protestant with all of the basic premises that animate protestantism,
(46:14):
which are different than what animates Catholicism complementary but different.
So even now now they're secularists and secularists,
I've said many times is a religion,
secularism is a religion.
So in fact,
it's again another war among religions.
(46:37):
Yes.
And and to be honest,
if we're ever gonna get a way out of this culturally and societally out of the mess,
we have to rediscover philosophy.
We have to rediscover basic philosophical reasoning that asks fundamental questions about the nature of the human person,
the nature of truth,
(46:58):
right?
The nature of of community and communion,
so that we can start having an intelligent conversation even among people who don't share the same religions or do not share the same conclusions.
We don't have that the church does.
So once again,
as 11 in society,
we are to walk and be there present in all of these in these situations because it gives us an opportunity to bring people more fully to the truth.
(47:30):
Yes.
Yeah.
I love how you started off today's show really emphasizing that we need to accompany people in love and truth.
You need both.
You can't just have the love.
You can't just have the actually to tell the truth is to love actually,
without a doubt,
you can't do one without the other.
(47:51):
Right.
And,
and if you are making a judgment in a given situation that also allows you to accompany is fundamentally different than being judgmental.
That says,
you're not worth my time.
Fundamentally different.
(48:13):
It sounds also excellently like we need to re teach or teach better theology of the body in parishes and in schools and you know,
to parents.
I mean,
Yes,
we do.
Yes,
we do.
And quite frankly,
uh,
50 years ago,
(48:34):
40 years ago,
80 years ago,
70 years ago.
The culture kept people in a particular way of living behaving and acting that almost pre consciously conveyed this truth without them having to actually conceptualize it.
(48:54):
So this is the image you're on the highway.
The highway should do two things have guardrails and should have no potholes,
guardrails,
you go flying off,
you get killed,
potholes slow you down in a perfect world.
You have highways that are nice smooth,
flat guardrails to protect you.
You go on your merry way.
(49:16):
That's exactly what we're talking about is to be able to help the world understand what the guard rails are and to eliminate the potholes and many of those potholes are people who have come to the conclusion that no one loves me.
Certainly the church doesn't love me and don't tell me God loves me because all you people who believe,
(49:37):
where are you in my struggle.
So if we're really serious guardrails to the truth,
filling the potholes is love.
That's how you get people moving in the direction of jesus christ.
I love that image,
I love it.
Okay,
so I guess,
you know,
we have maybe two minutes before the break.
(49:58):
Did you want to kind of just give us a final thought,
final exhortation or challenge or?
Well,
the only thing,
it's,
it's basically information in the sense that we have begun this discussion in our diocese.
Oh,
good.
And we have engaged the leadership,
pastors,
dre's the teachers to try to come up with some guidance that eventually would also go to parents on this very complicated and sensitive issue to give everyone an opportunity to re acquaint themselves and reflect on the truth that the church believes,
(50:34):
which I kind of tried to give in very broad terms,
but also the pastoral tools to engage people and and to forge a way forward.
So hopefully in in the not too distant future,
I'd have more to say about this in a more in a more formalized way because it's it's too pressing an issue and too sensitive an issue to leave it just for everyone to figure out what they want to do on their own.
(51:03):
Mhm.
Okay,
so more to come.
Great awesome and I can tell your parents like me and ruler we really we really appreciate that because we feel bombarded.
Okay,
let's take let's take our final break and come back on the other side with a listener question,
(51:24):
this is let me be frank on the veritas catholic network on 13 50 A.
M.
One oh 3.9 FM.
And on your phone using the veritas catholic network mobile app,
be right back,
I'm steve lee from veritas catholic network and I just want to tell you quickly about the Connecticut catholic men's conference.
I've been going to this annual event for the past five years or so and it's just a fantastic day this year,
(51:45):
the conference is on saturday,
september 24th at Northwest Catholic high school in West Hartford.
It's an easy trip from anywhere in Connecticut and you'll be happy.
You went to spend the day with hundreds of your catholic brothers fellow men who are striving to be good fathers,
strong husbands and faithful Catholics.
The theme this year is the most holy Eucharist and the speakers are gonna be bishop frank Caggiano,
(52:08):
Father wade menaces.
Father larry richards and father chris taylor men,
it doesn't get much better.
There's also going to be mass adoration,
confession and fellowship again,
it's september 24th and you can go online to get more information or to register the website is C.
T.
Catholic men dot org.
(52:29):
Hope to see you there.
Welcome back to let me be frank on the veritas catholic network with bishop frank Caggiano excellency.
You know,
just before we get to the listener question,
I just wanna give a little shout out because this saturday september 3rd is my 22nd wedding anniversary.
(52:51):
So congratulations.
Thank you.
It's hard to hard to believe we've been married for 22 years.
Um I hope you're celebrating.
Yes of course.
Yeah,
I've got lots of stuff planned honey,
so don't worry.
Good for you,
you make sure.
(53:13):
Oh gosh,
alright so to the question uh here this came in um it says I know some folks who occasionally go to a national catholic church,
would Bishop Caggiano please address the differences and if going to one of these masses fulfills our sunday obligation.
Mhm.
(53:34):
First of all,
I appreciate the question because I had to do some homework to answer it.
Right?
So to put in a very succinct terms,
the national catholic church of which the polish national catholic church is probably the best known in the United States,
even in our diocese because there is a polish national catholic church in Stratford ST Josephs.
(53:59):
Okay they are a schismatic church,
what does that mean?
They are a church that has separated from Rome and it was born originally in Holland but what's interesting is while they do not accept the ultimate authority of the Pope in every other respect,
(54:20):
they have remained catholic.
So,
the sacraments are valid.
Their holy orders of the clergy are valid and and therefore those who attend those services in good faith do in fact,
fulfill their obligations.
Rome.
(54:42):
And the national catholic church have been in dialogue for a number of years to try to bring unity to reconcile the differences,
right?
But over the past 15 years,
those talks have not really amounted to much in the end.
If you had to say so,
what's the difference?
It's the obedience to the supreme pontiff,
right?
They don't recognize the leadership of the pope in an absolute way.
(55:07):
But in terms of faith creed and sacraments,
they are essentially no differences.
So that's the difference between the two.
It's a big problem,
though.
No,
of course it is.
You got to follow Peter and and and and right.
Because without a connection to the Universal Church,
(55:30):
without the ministry of Peter,
which is both guardian of the truth.
Most specially,
he is the person of unity.
He's the focal point of communion.
Your,
your orthodoxy,
your fidelity to the truth.
Can over time either remain authentic or begin to move away.
(55:53):
So,
it's almost like trying to navigate the ocean without a compass,
theoretically,
you could do it,
but it becomes harder and harder to do that's ultimately what the situation is.
You Yeah,
what a great question.
I had no idea there was even such thing as a national catholic.
Yeah,
that's great.
So,
no,
I knew of it,
(56:13):
I knew of the of the dialogue but but it gave me an opportunity to do good to,
to research which I appreciate.
Yeah,
awesome.
So if you have a question for bishop frank,
send it into us on social media or you can email questions at veritas catholic dot com.
Bishop frank,
Caggiano is on facebook instagram and twitter and so is veritas catholic network and thank you,
thank you to foundations and faith.
(56:35):
A grant from the Saint Therese fund for evangelization makes it possible for us to bring,
let me be frank to you foundations and faith is committed to supporting and transforming pastoral industries in the diocese of Bridgeport and you can learn more about their outstanding work at foundations in faith dot org.
Excellency thank you so much for this great teaching today.
(56:57):
Um and before you go,
I'll ask for your blessing.
Absolutely,
first of all ask a blessing upon you and rule up because your anniversary,
thank you the name of the father son and the holy spirit amen in our poverty.
Lord jesus.
We come before you asking for your abundant blessings that in all the challenges we face.
(57:19):
We remain faithful to you and to the truth you have revealed with loving hearts that accompany all of our sisters and brothers to heaven In a special way.
I ask you to bless Steve and ruler as they celebrate their 22nd wedding anniversary,
continue to bless them with many,
many happy years of health and joy and peace with their Children and all those whom they love.
(57:42):
We ask this in the name of the father,
the son and of the Holy Spirit.
Amen Right,
enjoy your,
enjoy your weekend.
Thank you so much Excellency you,
too.
Alright.
All the best.
Okay?
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