Marcus Martins | First Black Missionary After the 1978 Revelation - E0037 - Let’s Get Real with Stephen Jones

Episode Transcript
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(01:04):
we live
an intelligent religion, the religion
practiced by the members of the church
of Jesus Christ of Latter daySaints is an intelligent religion.
Don't people look,just look at what we do right
at the beginningof the missionary lessons.

(01:25):
More on counsels
peoplewhen you receive these things folder
and you're going to read them under,then you're going to pray.
He doesn't tell us,oh when you receive these things pray. No.
First to ponder first analyze
and then you pray.
So right there we see that yeah.

(01:49):
Our Heavenly Father gave us a bringand he expects us to use that body.
The Holy Ghostis not going to turn us into puppets.
And so no, he expects us to ponder,
to pray,
but to ponder again, analyze, think.

(02:13):
Or as the, the,
the, the, the, the statementhe made in section
nine of the doctrine God was goingto, study in our minds,
study in our minds.
And then when he, he speaks about,
revelation section eight,

(02:33):
section 100, Helaman 13,
he says, yeah, I will speak in your mindand in your heart.
For the Holy Ghost is section111 13 the Lord says,
speak the thoughts that I shall putin your hearts.
Interesting statementthat you're in your hearts.

(02:54):
Interesting.
Yeah. You know, you gotta be okay.
It's not just feeling.
Oh, I feel, I feel, I feel okay.
But now translate.
Try to translate what you feel.
Through words and you see.
So you get what you're feeling.

(03:14):
Filterthrough your intellect through the excuse
you have had to, through the knowledgeyou accumulated in the scriptures
in the words of prophets and apostlesand then what comes out.
And that's them insight.
It's interestingword in the English language.
You don't have the after you.
It's a oh yeah.
They don't have the one that.

(03:36):
Quickly describesthat insight to see with them
the nuances,the inner workings of something.
And so yeah.
So we have an intelligent religionwhen we have an intelligent religion
and that's why, you know,we should not be concerned

(03:57):
when we face questions.
We should not be, considering thatthere's something wrong with me.
I'm losing my testimony. You. No.
God gave us a brain, necessarily.
We're going to encounterthings that are going to say, whoa,
wait wait wait wait, wait a minute.
And then the fact that we don't have allrevelations, we don't have all knowledge

(04:20):
about principles ofthe gospel, then we enable us
to exercise faith.
That's interesting.
Have some patience.
So we're going to have to wait.
We have to be like our father Adam.
Okay.
Why are you offering sacrificeI don't know, the Lord told me to do it.

(04:42):
I'm doing it and that's faith.
Same thing with a, our father Abraham.
Go after your son.
Okay. Okay.
I'll do it next day.
Next morning he left with Isaac,
and, And we tend to forget that Isaac,
when he got there to Mount Moriah,

(05:03):
Isaac became he became a willing sacrifice
because when he finally got there,you know, Abraham not afraid to fire.
I had to tell himwhat was going to happen.
And, you know,Abraham was 107 years old at this point,
you know, who knows,perhaps 100ft of, some traditions.
And, you know, old medievaltraditions state that at that point,

(05:26):
Isaac might have been somewherearound 30 years of age.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,it is a land.
Oh that's interesting. That was 30.
That the connection to Jesus in a way.
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
When he said that said, well,the Lord told me to kill you right here.
He said, are you crazy?

(05:48):
And you know, run out of there.
But he didn't.
So bothAbraham and Isaac had the sense that,
okay, I don't get it, but that's notand that's faith.
And so the same thing with us, we,we we, you know,
because we have intellect, God given, even

(06:11):
when we encounter thingsthat sort of challenge,
somehow, somehow,we shouldn't think that there
was something wrong with usor our faith is diminishing.
Yeah.
No, the other, No,
I'm sort of looking to,Let me write this way here.
Trusting in the Lord.

(06:32):
There will be an explanation.
I don't know when the explanation
will come,but there will be an explanation.
And so, these are some of the thoughtsthat I have in relation to this.
Yeah.
Topic that I use unintelligible religion.
I, I, I gave, an actual, a major lecture
at BYU Hawaii right before the pandemicin February 2020.

(06:55):
And I thought only to the third centuryof an intelligent religion.
Wow. That was,it was that annual Dave Dr.
McKay lecture. Yeah.
We had one major event, and, Yeah, in.
So, I see this is in

(07:16):
pursuit of discipleship in Christ
as something that's,
requires a faith
that is grounded also in intellect
and that then, this faith should be.

(07:37):
Active
in, faith that is full of awareness.
It's not a blind faith.
I am aware,yeah, that I am being asked to do
certain things that I don't understand,but I understand the pattern
that the Lord has usedthroughout the history of the world.

(08:00):
And he said of the dispensationsof the gospel, and I am being given
the same privilege now of acting on faith,just like my father Adam,
my father Abraham,my father Isaac, and so many others.
And this is powerful.
So, so, so this idea that doubt

(08:21):
questions is pretty normal.
It's part of life.
But the idea also that, you know,
the balancebetween the heart and the mind.
I thought the word that I thought ofwhen you were saying that was balance.
It's balance. It'snot just over on the heart.
They all of it, but but the it'san intellectual, a religion, right?
You know,it needs to be to be able to balance it.

(08:43):
Is that what I'm understanding? Yeah.
Well, it's what I explain to peoplewho, you know, over the years and
I've looked at
literally hundredsand hundreds of interviews and I saw,
twice as, Bishop and,
you know,and then the mission presidency also,

(09:06):
and people come sayingthere's something wrong with me
because I see people going to the ballbearing testimony meetings and only to,
you know, and they said,I don't feel that that.
Yeah, wrong with me.
And I tell them, nothing's wrong with you,
nothing's wrong with you.
And then I, I tell them, look, you know

(09:27):
what the Lord saidin the Doctrine and Covenants
section 46 to some of these, give them,
the Holy Ghost from all
that Jesus is the Christ by the Holy Ghostto know that Jesus is the Christ.
Yeah,it is given to believe in their words.
That's one of my favorites, oneof my favorites if they remain faithful.

(09:47):
And so so yeah, I see, you know,some of us and I use this the moment,
you know, you know, like, Nephi and Sam.
So here's Nephi
having this
all this powerful scripture,one of the stations visions,
ministrations by heavenly messengers,angels and whatnot.

(10:07):
And here's one of his older brothers, Sam,
who as fathers, we read in first need forhe wasn't having any of that.
But whenever Nephi told him what he had
seen and learned from heavenly messengers,Sam would believe.
Laman and Limor would doubt,but Sam would believe it's a gift.

(10:29):
And so yeah, that's what the what
the believingthe words of those who have the power for
manifestations is in itselfa spiritual gift.
And so I will tell people there'snothing wrong, nothing wrong with you
because I don't feel, I don't feel
what do you believe you're here in church?
Yeah. Because you know.

(10:53):
Well yeah.
We come to church do what you don't,you know, I don't feel I'm coming.
Life.
I believe in God, I believe in JesusChrist I believe this is their church.
Oh you believe so. Okay.
You don't need to cry over that.
You know you already believe youhave you have the faith.

(11:13):
And so, this is really powerful. Yeah.
You know, so, Emerson,I think with me as a lot of these things
that if I'm not having this,
you know, you know, burning in the bosomand the things
that, you know, nobody can describeexactly what is burning the blues.

(11:33):
I had students in the past, you know,over my 30 years of teaching that right.
Vapor saying, now, whenever I havea heartburn, I know it's the Holy Ghost.
No, it is not, you know, just
think I need to ask the Lord.
Oh, that's.
And and so they keep thinking.
It's onlyif I'm not weeping for not tears with

(11:57):
tears are not, rolling down my cheeks.
Then I'm not.
No, you are.
You are a disciple of Christ.
You're doing the right things.
You're still serving.
You're keeping the commandments.
That's what the Lord does it.
You see,
having this powerful spirit is
one of its stations is a great privilege,a great blessing.

(12:21):
But it's not, let's see.
A requirement for exaltationwhen eternal life will.
Is a requirement where it's interesting.
Faith, repentance, obedienceto the commitments of God, including.
So what is not that what is not,you know, having powerful spiritual.

(12:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.But yeah, that's interesting.
The distinction for the faithfulin the words and these signs will follow.
Then those who believe.
Who signs will follow.
But there are signs that are very visibleand all the signs that are not visible.
It's interesting.
The Book of Mormon mentionsthat's, how the converted Lamanites,

(13:05):
they were
what is the, even understanding,
baptized by the Holy Ghost and they knew
and not would not,
they have changed.
President Boyd, there's that.
Wait, wait, wait. That's important. Right?

(13:26):
They didn't know it.
Well, president Boyd, get back.
I have that classic talk that I think it.
It's a
we don't have the map to talk,
but we have the, a summary
that was published in the Samsung magazinein January of 1983.
The temple of the Lord, where he talksabout, so, yeah, you know, were

(13:47):
you was talking to when he said,how do I grow spiritually?
How do I grow spiritually?
And he and he on the back of sin,I could see how much you have
grown in not more interesting.
Yeah, true.
Even in your real body of things,it happens when you like
in your real body, when you're growingas a kid, like my son's growing right now,

(14:11):
he doesn't he doesn't necessarilythink I grew a little bit today.
It happens gradually.
It's like a it's like a crescendo.
Yeah, yeah, it's all the same.
The same with, this, progression.
There's a lot goingon. Yeah. Just observe.
It's interesting that, what we are told,

(14:31):
you know,when Alma the Elder gives that's,
and you
know, King Benjamin as well mentionthat the council of being witnesses of God
at all times, in all places.
We keep thinking externally, outward.

(14:52):
You have to see the manifestation
of the spirit of the Lordand the miracles, the physical
mind looking at the manifestation
of the spirit of the Lord in here as well.
What does that look like?What do you mean?
Well, well, you have to take stock.
Look at all.
How was I five years ago?

(15:15):
Comparison with who I am today.
What have I done over this pastfive years.
Or in my case you're going to bein a few weeks of the clock, 53 years
as a member of the church.
But of course, because I'm saying this,I have done this exercise
and, and I can see this here, you know,I have changed in many respects.

(15:36):
I've changed my behavior.
I've changed my perspective on things,my understanding.
And so I can see, I don't usethe term diet to see how I've grown.
Oh, that's not it.
But I see it.
But I can see thatI'm far more refined today
than I was ten, 20, 30, 40 years ago.

(15:59):
And and that, brings me,
a great excitement for what's to come,you know, because I see, oh, my goodness.
You know, I can hardlywait for the next ten years or 20 years
if I'm still here,
if the one keeps me here because,you know, any time, you know, I'm
66 years old, you know, anytimethe Lord can call me to that

(16:21):
missionthat that's not aiming to catch years.
I understand the mission.
That doesn't mean that.
Okay.
But while I'm hereand so I can hardly wait.
That's so exciting.Well let's see what's going on.
And I don't have to go out of my way.
I just have to live life normally.
You see that's asomething else that I often tell people.

(16:43):
Look, you know,you don't need to go out of your way
to look for spiritual experience,but just do the basics.
Say a prayer, study the scriptures, attendthe church meetings, fulfill your call.
Okay.
I think the temple a little bit.
Thank you. Very good care of your family.
If you have a family,take good care of you, of your family.

(17:07):
If you have,
if you're married,
you know, take extragood care of your spouse,
even if your spouse is not a member
of The Churchof Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
Be an excellent spouse,because that's really where, you know,
things are really going to happento us more often than not in our homes.

(17:29):
I think that most of us, yeah,what we're going to have in our lives.
I'm going to meet in the chapel.
I'm going to be in the meeting house.
Some will be in the meeting hall,some will be in the temple,
but we don't live seven daysa week in the temple.
We don't leave seven daysa week in our church with all the chapels,
but we're seven days a week in our homes.

(17:49):
So, as we look forward them to this.
So yeah, just live your lifenormally doing the things that, you know,
you would expect that you do
in the experience, you will come, butyou're going to have to look in retrospect
and look, you know,I learned a few things here.
Oh yeah.

(18:10):
I think I've improved in something,in comparison with six
months ago or six years ago.
And with that, we
leave our very,you know, very fulfilling life.
And the gospel becomes living, the gospelbecomes a source of enjoying them.
In fact,the earlier this week I'm here, drove

(18:31):
with a visiting professorthis spring, and, you know,
it was reminding my students of somethingthe prophet Joseph Smith thought,
you know, as we approach,
clearer, our views and the greater.
So if we,

(18:53):
if we are ministeringsomebody who says that living the gospel
of Jesus Christ, the fullness of thegospel of Jesus Christ as being a burden,
that being a member of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter daySaints has been a burden.
Look, there was something wrongwith this picture
because it's not supposed to bea burden, is supposed to be enjoyable.

(19:15):
So what is it?
Are you,
over?
You have excessive expectations of things.
Are you having excessive,
views on what is being required of you?
You know, because sometimes therethere is that danger which, Jacob
tells us in the Book of Mormon in Jameschapter four, to move beyond the mark.

(19:40):
You know, in Brazil,we have this expression
of being more royal than thethat in Portuguese.
Well, at least the, the people hate.
And the king and starting to do thingsjust to look at, we're not,
we're not being expected to do that,you know.
Why do you think that is though.
Where is it.But what is it coming from though.

(20:01):
You know,I mean from, faith it comes from.
No, no, no, that,that, this, this, this idea of people.
Why do peoplethink that they have to go past this Mark?
Where is that? Where's that from?But that's what I'm saying.
It's when people go overboard
with this and they start to think that.
No, I have to do more.I'm not doing enough.

(20:23):
I have to do more.
I'm being asked to do more.
I'm just being asked to do pretty,
faith fail.
If you are healthy enough to fast.
I think your meetings fulfill your call.
He's doing the temple.
You see, the ordinance, the gospel, the care of your family, the.

(20:44):
That's what we're being.
They suffer thingsthat they cannot understand.
Now that that that's something else.
That's something that that's something
that, you know, for people like meand other scholars and so on.
On the esoteric
thing, you know,you know, it's interesting.
Don't try to research, about the

(21:07):
the chemical composition of the pavementof the streets in the summer.
Okay.
We don't have that.
I just speculate about what happens in.
Well, it's, you know.
No, but which
which blindness came by lookingbeyond the mark they must needs for
for God at taken away his plain isfrom them, and delivered unto them

(21:29):
many things which they cannot understand,but see that they cannot understand.
Yeah.
You see, well,David was referring to the ancient.
These were muchthey wanted a complicated religion.
They wanted somethingthat was interesting, mysterious.
Okay.
So the Lord said, okay,I walk according to your faith.
That's what if that's your faith. Okay.

(21:50):
Here's Isaiah. Deal with him.
Deal with that.
Fortunately in our case no,no we were being given you know
W Kimball you knowand that's what I've been so hard w or
and you know Gordon B Hinckley and

(22:14):
you know Thomas, that's Monsonand you know Russell and Nelson.
Thank goodness we're being given goals.
Okay.
Nothing mysterious, nothing complicated.
And, and that's what we continuethis way, in the future
is that when nature walks in,Jeffrey Holland and whoever comes after.
I think he's always been like that.
Yeah, well, not always.

(22:35):
Okay. Okay.
Know, Yeah, yeah.
Above and beyond the call of duty there.
But, but,
you know, you see.
You random Jacob there.
So, on the mark, the mark is Jesus Christ.

(22:59):
And that's the mark.
Don't look beyond I was interestedin former missionaries.
In fact he was one of my assistantsin the museum.
Why is it, why is I significant though.
Well because they see
he was telling you about the president,
so concerned about, you know,why didn't blacks hold the priests?

(23:19):
What did?
Why then?
And so, I say I'm looking on.
The more about these things exterminate.
What you need to find out is,how do you feel
about your heavenly father and the Savior,Jesus Christ?
That's the mark.
How do you feel about them?
What are your feelings towards them?

(23:40):
What are your desiresconcerning God the Father, His Son,
Jesus Christ?
What are you?
What are you?
What's your desire?
What do you wish to tell them?
Through the power of the Holy Ghost?

(24:01):
Everything else.
Original.
Once you have this direct connectionwith him.
This is my father.
My father in heaven.
Perfect and perfectly loving.
And this is my Savior.
My Redeemer.
All so perfect and perfectly loving.

(24:24):
And they love meand they want me back in their presence.
That's their point. That's their work.
That's their glory, that's their business.
To help me go back to their presence,
then you can see that all these otherquestions and concerns kind of fade.

(24:45):
They still there. They don't disappear.
But I say they are,
they do they go into the back room
because my connection with them,my connections
not with issues, my connections are notwith doctrines or beliefs.
My connection with
is with the father and the son mediated

(25:05):
by the power of the Holy Ghost,the third member of the Godhead.
And, and so,and I told this missionaries simplify,
simplify, focus on your access, your,
you know, to your father in heaven.

(25:26):
What do you think?
What do you feel about him?
Talk to him,
contact him.
Yeah.
We are all imperfect human beings.
And because of the fall of Adam and Eve,
ordinarilywe would not have the means to address
God Almighty, the great.

(25:49):
Oh, we are shut out from his friends.
But because of the atonement of JesusChrist, we're given this privilege.
So it is, what I,
what I tell peopleis, look at this expression
in the name of JesusChrist is an invocation of authority.
Prayer.
No, you're referringyou're referring to prayer

(26:11):
in the name of Jesus Christ.
Oh, I see yes.
That you're placing that stamp.
Stamps.
Look, you cannot talk to God.
You're not good enough to talk to God.
But if you use my name you listen to him.
If you speak in my name,you will listen to you because of me.

(26:34):
So that connection is important in them
both as we focus on that connectionon a daily basis.
And by the way, I don't know.
Look, I'mnot seeing anything strange here.
You know, this is what we promisewhen we partake the sacrament.
It is always remember him.
No, I'm not saying anything.

(26:55):
I'm just using,you know, more, you know, convoluted
wording here, perhaps, but, it'swhat we bring to the sacrament.
So, yeah, once we focus on that.
Oh okay.
So yeahthe all the things they still exist.
The questions are still exist.
But now
I have somethingfar more powerful to the question.

(27:17):
Me which is my connection,my connection with God.
So you feel that connection.
I'm saying it means something to youis what I'm saying.
That's why I'm feeling it right nowI, you believe that.
Yeah.
But you know, of course I'm a human being.
You know, there are days when, you know,
there are days when I think, goodness,there is repentance.

(27:39):
True.
Of course, when things happen that,
Okay, I can go.
Sorry, Lord, you know thatmy dad, you know, let's let's rewind.
And, actually, we cannot rewindbecause we don't have the power
to go back in time and redo things.
But, it's a little different. Okay.
For my one, will, I'll.

(28:01):
I'll do better next time.
If there is a next time, I'll do better.
And and that'swhere the principle of repentance is.
You see, the difference between,being worthy and being perfect
is precisely what this perfect personwould never make any mistakes.
But only Jesus Christ was like that.

(28:23):
All of us make mistakes.
Worthiness means that
I can make mistakes,
but I can repent of that.
So a worthy persons, a person
who still isn't perfect,still makes mistakes.
But when realizes that he orshe made a mistake,
he immediately will try to fix itif possible and will repent and do better.

(28:47):
And that makes that person continueto be worthy relying.
And this is what Nephi also taught
in secondary study one, relying solely
on the merits of him
who was powerful to save just Christ.

(29:08):
And so, so do you feel that connection?
Well, you know, there are days when I feelthere are days when I may not,
but when I can, we begin to feel again.
You know, it's interesting that Almathe Younger asked this question
when he goes to, the people of the churchin Zarahemla, I want you.
I'm five men.

(29:28):
And I said, can you feel?
So now you guys know that'sa bunch of questions and and so yeah, he's
kind to the the just seeing the, thethe song of redeeming love I sent you.
Can you feel that now?
That's a very interesting question.
Can you feel that now?
Why do you think it's so interesting?
Well, because, essentiallyI'm on the younger stage.

(29:51):
You know, you have to review things.
You have to stop and say, look,
yeah, I know I have a testimony,but can I feel that?
That's when, you know, middle of the dayhere, you know, I'm doing things
on cleaning house or I'm at workor in school or whatever, and having fun.
Can I feel now

(30:11):
that's active actionthat I have with my Heavenly Father?
And if I feel that, you know, there's notthat I'm going to call or cooking food
or doing the dishes, taking all the trash,I'm going to stop working.
I'm going to stop my schoolwork.
I'm going to stop,you know, swimming or playing ball.
No, on the contrary,once I feel that connection, I'll say,

(30:33):
thank you, Lord, for this great momentthat I'm having here.
You know, cleaning my house or,you know, playing
with my friends or, you know,enjoying myself with this body of.
Thank you, Lord, for this, for thisblessing.
You still live your life,you know, you still have fun.
You still do your things.
But recognizing and always being grateful,
which is one of the thingsthe Lord means, is always remember.

(30:56):
So yeah, you know, you
we have to acknowledge his handin all things, in all things.
We have to be grateful.
And so once we arealways remembering, you know,
we're going tobe exalted, we're going to live our lives.
We have a following,but we're going to always be grateful
so that we live Queen, live a good life.
What are you fumbling? But it's important.

(31:17):
I think the way you just said that,like now it's active.
It's not an event.
I think President Nelson mentionedthat repentance is its change.
It's a constant progress.
It's a it's a constant.
It's a constant, process.
It's not an event.
You got baptizedand but can you feel so now?

(31:38):
Yeah.
Well, you know,are you continually turning to Christ?
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
It's that concept, the quality controlthat, was,
you know, came out of Japan, the kaizen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so it's
that was inspired by the blood of Christthe Lord.
Yeah.
I think that this is importantbecause I feel like the principles

(31:59):
are really applicable to to everything,you know?
So you what
I even what I meant to was the ideathat this is obviously matters to you.
I could just feel itwhen you were explaining,
when you had your missionary,they called you and contacted you, said
they had questions and you said, look,I think even just the way you said it,
I could just feel thatthat meant something to you, that that was

(32:20):
very important for you to try to help himunderstand that.
Questions to
worship you and a member of the church
like everybody else, you know,
you know, I've,I've had questions for some of them
for decades of theirfor which I still don't have an answer.
But as I said, for me,you're there when I have questions.

(32:42):
I don't have doubts.
I have questions, but I don't have doubts.
What's the difference for you?What's the difference?
The difference is that,you know, my, intellect,
your curiositytakes a backseat to my faith.
And so, my faith
keeps my curiosity in check.

(33:04):
So those thingsfor which the Lord has not explained yet.
I'm patient enough to wait.
Okay. For the day
in this life or the next, in which,
the answer will be provided.
And so, so that's what I,

(33:24):
that'swhat I, that's what, that's what I mean.
So the book. No.
God, it's there.
But he doesn't bother me.
And so because it doesn't bother me,I have no doubts.
Yeah, but I still have the question.
But I trust in him as well
because we have promises in the talkingin the comment section 101, section 21.

(33:46):
What promise that while we are, you know,the things that were never revealed
before are going to be revealednow in the latter days.
In the sectionone one the covers, the Lord
promise that when the Lord returns,he will explain all things.
Okay, I can wait.
So that's a good segue to me,
I think 1972 1972.

(34:08):
What is a what is that you mean that was athat was a good year for you.
Tell me about that year.
Well, yeah.
You know, that's when in May
beginning of May,the missionaries came to our home
and started teaching my family of those,Thomas MacIntyre and Steven Richards.
And I remember we started attending church.

(34:32):
We went to a sacrament meeting,which in those days was in the afternoon
on Sunday, Mother's Day, one Sunday of me.
And I just recently, I remember
because it was Mother's Day
and, we were at a family gathering therebecause we all lived
in the same neighborhood,you know, with uncles and aunties

(34:55):
and, cousins and, so we left early
to go to,
second meeting, which I think was 5 p.m.
or something like that.
And, it was the first timewe went to a church meeting
at the invitation of the missionaries.

(35:15):
And, so a little less than two months later,
we were baptized on July 2nd, 1972.
So we received the missionary lessons.
Yeah.
And, we in our case, everything worked.
Everything worked.
You know, it was textbook case.

(35:37):
You know, we were very well fellowship.
You know, our branch there in Rio deJaneiro,
Brazil, one of the branches in the city.
And, even the youth, fellowship. Me.
I remember they, invited me
to a certain timewe were in church and invited.

(36:00):
Well, why don't you come Tuesday evening?
You know, we have a,
I didn't understand what they
said in the car, heading back home.
I told my brotherthey invited me to something.
I think they called musical association.
I'm not a musician.
You know, I you I know I'm a little bitof a piano, but I don't play the piano.

(36:24):
And I remember my my, my, my motherin the car when I was in, but go anyway.
So we went,and then I learned it was mutual.
But it was,
one of the youth who invited me to go,
a young lady. No, Rosanna.
she's deceased now, and, we,

(36:48):
And so she means something to you?
Well, you know, her whole family.
So you kept you keptyou kept contact with her.
Well, she had a younger sisterwho attended the same school I did.
I didn't knowshe was a member of the church.
So when we went to go to the, second meeting on Mother's Day.
Oh, there she was,she was one year ahead of me.

(37:10):
And I said look
you, Iknow you're a member of this church.
And so years later
my mother and her mother served together
mistake in front of the presidency.
So that was connections there then.
But it was for me.

(37:32):
Interesting.
Was that they do not wait for us
to become members of the churchfor all of us.
I remember the, brother who taught
family history,what we called genealogy classes.
He invited us to attend the genealogyclasses.

(37:54):
We had not been baptized yet.
And you had to leave.
And so we started attending genealogyclasses there.
They to us investigators,they also invited us to,
this was a property the church had inmy neighborhood was just an old house.
You know, there was a vacant lot. Big lot.
There was an old house, really old. And,

(38:18):
and they needed to clear some, you know,
weeds and whatnot from the Lord's to that.
There was a beautiful stake centerin that place.
But, but back then, in 72.
So one Saturday morning, there we went.
You know, my parentsand I went there to help clear the lot,
you know, with the other members.

(38:39):
And we're doing investigating the church.
I found a picture, a few years ago
of, because we're in June now.
So this was weeks before our baptism.
And in Brazil, we have the junimos. You.
Okay.
And the hillbilly parties,you know, and,

(39:00):
and we had one in the branchand they asked my father to help.
To help.
So my father was servingthere, that water nice.
And the soft drinks there.
And I found a picture of himwith another brother
who's also now deceasedbrother, Joseph Hauser.
You know,
the two of them there,you know, fake mustaches.

(39:22):
Really?
And, you know, Jews smiling there,you know, opening, you know,
bottles of soft drinks and oldwho used to be and were investigated.
Wow. They they involved us in everything.
So, in the end,
why am I telling all this?
Because, look, you know, this iswhat's supposed to happen all the time.

(39:45):
You know, going to Wales, you people, all,you know, member of the church,
you absolutely know, involved,involved and and,
so when the, the, the, the issue and,
I don't know if you want to go there like,oh, well, it's necessary anyway.
Otherwise people are going to askfor the money back here.
So no no no no that's not what this is.

(40:06):
When we finally received the last,about the priesthood, when we had been
so involved with the members,
we have been so, well,fellowship, myself included.
But I had only one sister at the time.
She was six years old,and so she wasn't primary already.
Also, so

(40:27):
that's,
Okay.
So okay, so wewill not be able to hold the priesthood,
but you know how many friendswe're making here?
Yeah. How many people are supporting us?
And, so we didn't
see ourselves as second class
because we had been cleaning the,

(40:48):
the serving vacant lotwith all the other members.
And, my mother had been,
repairing refreshmentswith the other sisters there
while the men were, you know, you know,hauling trunks of the trees and so on.
The we were preparingsome sandwiches there.
And so my mother was there with

(41:08):
and, and I had been in the Mutual Improvement
Association and we were attendingthe genealogy classes.
And so,
yeah, you know, there so well integratedwith everything that's unfolded.
So what we would do all the places, but
we're going to
be, youknow, still enjoying everything else.

(41:28):
And so for us, it was not a, majorhurdle.
So, so,
so we go to and two weeks after
we were baptized in July of 72,
my father was, top executive
for the National in that subsidiaryof the National Oil Company.

(41:52):
And, he was a controller there.
And,
but twice, twice a week in the evening,
he would teach, Rio de Janeiro StateUniversity about accounting and finance.
So two weeks after our baptism,the branch president comes

(42:13):
into all of understand you are youyour teacher teacher at the University of.
So yeah I teach couple of nights a weekand so okay we did a Sunday school teacher
so Europe so started teaching.
But but there was a thing.
The class you
were supposed toteach was the gospel class,
which in those days was formembers was more

(42:35):
than one year of membership.
So here's my father,two weeks of membership, and he's teaching
the members who have been there for yearsand there were no teachers manuals.
That year, 72.
They were study of Jamestown with his bookarticles of Faith.
So I gave my fathera copy, told him which chapter

(42:57):
they were going to discussthe following Sunday, and he taught.
Well, and then, two months later, the,
the first stake was organizedin religion aid.
I ever. Yeah.
The first thing we had a distributor agreewith the thing.
We were really on board.
So the first stake in real was in 72.

(43:21):
Wow. We had a first stake in 66.
I think the second was inwow, 9 or 74, not mistaken.
And real then was in, 1972.
And the Bishop McConkey was there to,
organize the stake
and, and my parents were called

(43:42):
to stake positionslike the two months or membership.
Really, counselor?
And the stake, the school presidency.
My mother was called as a counselorin the junior Sunday school.
Interesting.
Primary was during the week,the junior Sunday school mother
was called as a counselor in the statejunior Sunday school presidency.

(44:03):
This is only two months.
Two months in one in. Wow.
I was called you to be, assistant
secretary in the young men'sorganization in my ward.
I said,this is the way supposed to happen.
Don't wait.
People are older or these,you know, like, no,
no, Boom-Boom,you know, you're going to see them thrive.

(44:25):
You're going to see them learning.
And, you know, it's,that's the way it's that's why I mentioned
a few minutes ago, in our case,everything went right.
Everything was done right.
Textbook case with everything.
And so
that all of this helped us,

(44:48):
you know, and the consolidationand the strength
in the Old Testament,because we have we've seen the testimony
or the truthfulness of the messagesthat missionaries were sharing with us.
And, do you remember thatfirst day that you realized
that this is the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Yeah.

(45:09):
What was that?
Well,I remember the first day I went to church,
and I remember coming back homewith this feeling,
and I remember this distinctively to thisday that I had been home.
That old house.
Okay, with floorboards that creakedwhen the the

(45:29):
the the young men passed the sacrament,
you know, uncomfortable.
The pews were uncomfortableand everything.
But I remember feeling home
that, that I had arrived at my home.
And, and, and I remember mentioning that,
so I had this feeling there was a home.

(45:52):
And I was the first one in my family,
my parents had already decidedto be baptized, but they didn't tell me.
And, they were kind of afraidof how we were going to break the news.
That to you?
Yeah, they were kind of.
They weren't sure if you.
But then one evening I told them you know,we were in the living room.

(46:13):
They're in our in our apartments a little.
I don't know about you guys, but,I said I'm going to be baptized.
Mr.. So, wait, you're a 13 year old kid.
You don't even know of your parents.
That's so interesting.
We also thought the same way,
but you were like, they're youboth kind of thinking the same.
Well, like, I don't you're like the same
thing.

(46:33):
We were in the same journey together,you know, I had been reading
the pamphlets.
I have been reading, first Nephi.
Well, first I read what the missionariesassigned, which was the ministry
of the Savior among the Nephites. 11.
Yeah, certainly for you, first of all,
I read thatand then I started with First new it.
So I had been browsingthrough the book of Warming, and,

(46:56):
I remember reading the testimony of JosephSmith, the pamphlet with the,
his testimony.
And my first impression was
so this guy washe was about my age, you know, 14, 15.
I'm 13 years old.
And my my feeling at the timethe way I, I would.
Articulates today is that, you know,

(47:17):
if this guy were lyinghe wouldn't lie this way.
You know, if I had to make up a storyI would say that
I saw an angel or saw the Virgin Mary.
Okay.
And, and I would say thatthey told me to be good, okay.
And have faith.
I would not say that I saw God and Jesusand they told me not to join any churches.

(47:40):
So stream you saying, yeah, I thought,you know, that's very bold for someone
who's about my agea little older was 14, 15, but,
you know, and I was 13,so he must have been telling the truth.
That was my first impression of JosephSmith was
my first impression was that,you know, it must be telling the truth.

(48:02):
You know, at that age,
if I had to lie, I wouldn't lie that way.
So the Virgin Mary was saw an angel.
And in sucha, you know, such a bold message.
Do not join in the churches.
Whoa.
For a young kid to say that, that in somelook I thought it has to be true.

(48:25):
Yes to be true.
And so
that was my initially my my,my usual impression.
So you know what I said in our caseeverything went
really well. Really well.
So that experience that you had,you go to church
for the first time and it felt like home,you said felt like home.

(48:48):
And you just.And then you started to serve.
It was not the building.
We didn't have temples in Brazil,you know, I saw pictures of temples
and missionaries.
They used to have those bindersand all the flip charts.
Yeah. Picture of the temple and so on.
But tell me about that.
What do we mean for you?
What is home mean for you
that I belong with you belong there.

(49:09):
I belong there.
Even though I was activein our previous religion
and I enjoyed it,
but this was different.
I felt that I belong, thatthat was my place, that church.
Despite of that building.
Later we had a district conference.

(49:29):
Conferenceof the district of Rio de Janeiro.
But we didn't have a stake.
You have a stake will cometrue months later.
And, so we went to the only meeting housewe had in the city.
It was about 20 minutes from my home.
And, so the district conference.
And so it was an all god chapel.Really nice.
But what? I'll be an actor.

(49:50):
My father had seen a yearor two and was very curious
about what it was about the Muslimstrain playing for a church.
And so,
but, which one?
The Church of JesusChrist of these things are more,
because you were usedto the Catholic Church,
and Methodist Churchand then The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter daySaint, that's a strange name for a church.

(50:11):
And the architecture of the building,very modern, old brick, rectangular,
you know. Linear.
But he mentioned that work.
That's how I saw thisbuilding of the church you know, was, was,
you know my father had been searchingfor something you didn't know what.
And he believed that

(50:32):
the religion where we were belong
living we belong to was not,you know, God's way and but you
but he didn't knowwhat God's way would be.
And so he mentioned thereto someone who is advisory
there, you know, you know,maybe I'll stop by that church on that.
And one of his, advisors,

(50:53):
I want to believe in a man named Solomon.
I, I knew some of them.
I used to go to work with my fathersometimes, and,
and, you know, knew his secretariesand all these.
His guys were his advisors.
I knew all of them.
And, so this man was named Solomon,but this time, he was not wise.

(51:16):
So, Jebus, you know,that's the Mormon church.
Oh, it's a church.
And, you can only go there beforeinvited by one of the members.
And besides, you're American,you're black.
I don't think you're going to bewelcome there.
So I said, I said you're right.
So interesting.
So he didn't go. Yeah.

(51:37):
So that's the irony of Solomongiving really unwise counsel.
Interesting.
And so finally we were at that,
and that, that buildingfor that district conference.
The reason why I mentionedthis was a conference because,
a brother who was leaving,
he and his wife were, Americans.

(52:01):
I think he was a counselor in the missionpresidency,
for not mistaken, Hal Johnson, his name.
He had been a young missionary in Brazil.
Now he had been there or something.
I don't remember what he was doing.
And, and so, they were invitedto bear the testimonies and so on.
So far, so good.

(52:21):
I was sitting there.
We're sitting in the congregation therein front of the chapels full of people
chapel. Go to a hall full.
And, this is Elder Johnson.
So could you give me a gift?
Parting gift?
I would like this gift of a special gift
for meto have all the men stand up and sing.

(52:42):
I need the every hour.
Whichin Portuguese, this is what you need.
Jesus.
And so we all stood up and some singing.
I, you know, Caruso.
Jesus.
And I remember them looking around.
My father and I were there,

(53:02):
you know, singing because we already knewat that point who already knew.
I mean, the every everyone.
I remember looking around and seeingall those men in suits and ties.
I looked aroundand I, I looked around and suddenly
I had that feeling of,
I'm part of this group.

(53:26):
And so mymy father, we are part of this group.
We're with them
and we're singing,
look at this, men in suits
singing Jesus together.
And that gave me that, suddenly no longer connection
with the Savior, but a connectionwith all those men as fellow disciples.

(53:51):
Now, that's how I'm articulating today.
That'snot exactly what I thought back then.
What did you think? Would you?
But the feeling thatI had was that we're united,
even though we looked different
and none of them were black, by the way,only my father and I, there.
But we're united in our faith in Christ

(54:11):
Jesus because we're seeing.
Through Jesus, we need to.
I need to every our
most gracious Lord.
And so I'm being Portuguese of course.
And, so it wasn't very touchy.
I never forgot that other countries like.
Yeah,we're still investigating the church.

(54:33):
This was still before we put that,but that really.
But that meant something to you.
I even the wayyou even the way you're saying it now.
I mean,
when you go back and it's it's almost likeyou're having this nostalgic moment,
you know, it's not nostalgia, it's what,you see, people know this very well.
You know, you you guys know me.
As you know, one of the mostrepeated verbs in the Book of Mormon is,

(54:57):
remember.
Remember?
Remember.
We've beenwe have to remember these things.
It's moments.
It's momentsin which the Holy Ghost came to us
and spoke to us
in ways that we cannot even phrase
with eloquence and completely words.

(55:19):
Now, now, after a half a century,
having thought about itfor half a century, yeah, I can articulate
more or lesswhat what what, what what happened?
But, but we have to remember these moments
and then come to the, the,the the follow up thought,

(55:40):
which is, if it was true, then
it is still true now,
no matter what the circumstances are.
I know I'm older, I know more things.
And, the circumstances seem like problems.
My challenges are different now.
Physical,emotional, mental, financial, whatever.

(56:03):
They're different now.
But the testimonies do the same.
The spirit that I felt.
Okay. I can still feel it now.
As I remember,as I remember how I felt with them.
It is as if the Holy Ghostkind of a replace,
if you will, what we felt in.

(56:25):
I can kind of feel like you.
So yeah, it is still there
because time,
you know, alma, was the one
who ruled among the younger was the onesthat time is only mentioned to me.
Yeah.
Like a dream of Godand some things that happened

(56:47):
decades agofor the Lord was almost snap of fingers
and soul as we remember,
and we ponder about what it seems.
There was, some how we are connected
to that experience. Again,
you know, beyond the barrier of time.

(57:09):
And we can almost feel it again,
as if it were happening nowand then three years ago.
And, so this is, you know,you listen to what you were saying.
It was almost feel likedo you feel it now?
So yeah. Yeah. Think about it.
It's the those

(57:30):
intimations, if you will, those,
you know, leftovers of that,
you know, those fragments of light,divine lights that comes of.
Yeah.
That the moon then and I can still
I can still taste it.
So what do you think.

(57:51):
What do you thinkhe wanted you to know then?
And that he still wants youto remember now?
If it's important to remember,what does he want you to remember?
I mean, obviously the experience.But what about it?
Well, know the the truth
that we're going to God knew
who it was, knew where it was, and
was willing to give me that
even though I wasn'teven a member of the church yet.

(58:13):
He gave it to you.
Have you been baptized yet?
And so,
and then, of course, you know,put it into that YouTube perspective
with everything elsethat has happened over 53 years.
So, yeah, you know, it only strengthens
Mike, Josh, one of the other,the Lord has been

(58:34):
has been very good, very gracious.
And you know, for reasons
that only he knows, but, you know, soand so
and I believe this is an experiencethat any latter day Saint can have.
I don't I don't believe thatmy experience is, unique
is just that as a social scientist,

(58:57):
you know,I have given sufficient thought.
To, to this.
And I have been refining my understanding.
And, of course, the
the fact that I have been intervieweda number of times about this.
And I told you before the the look,you know, whenever somebody asked me

(59:19):
a question that I, that I have been asked,that I've been asked before,
always think, okay, what have I learned
since the last timeI answered this question?
Yeah.
And so the answer I'm giving to you nowis, more detailed maps of more
profound answer
than the one that I gavein other podcasts, in other interviews,

(59:43):
some of which are recorded in the churcharchives and or even a lot of interviews.
But as you know, the age comes,
you know, it's it's seasonal.
Okay.
It's it's like parmesan cheese, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
It tastes better the longer. Yeah.
Giving forms.

(01:00:06):
Remembering these things
over years, over decades,
we will derive more and more lessons.
It andthat's when we're going to see them.
You know the Lord was there.
So that's why I think you're looking on.

(01:00:28):
People are not going to havethe exact same excuse I had,
but they're going to have experiencein which they're going to see it.
So yeah, I can understandwhat the Lord was doing to me
and what he was doing through me.
When they start, you
remember the experienceyou had in the past.
Even the, your youth

(01:00:50):
was in your youth. They're relevant.
Remember, we lived with our fatherin heaven, you know,
I'm not going to use the expressionfor eons before we were born here.
Yeah, we may have lived with himfor the equivalent
of millions or billions of Earth or twobefore we came here.

(01:01:11):
And so when we think, oh, yeah,we were children, we're youth.
Our spirits were much olderthan our physical bodies.
Our spirits may be millions
or billions of Earth years old.
So being a child,
being unlearned, being being a baby,a toddler,

(01:01:34):
youth, an adult, an elderly person,
those are mortal considerations, you know,and they are meaningless.
And the way we know they're meaninglessis because in the Book of Mormon,
when the Savior ministers to the Nephites,
I believe it was in the third dayof his visit.

(01:01:55):
He opened the mouths of the children.
This is third for chapter 26.
And, remember, on the second daythese children have been meals?
Did you buy angels?
That's 3017 of them.
On the following day,the Savior open the mouths
and even babes more will tell us.

(01:02:18):
Even babes opened their mouthsand they spoke marvelous words.
And they more than those even greaterthan the words the Savior
had spoken.
And they spoke to their parents,
and they were not allowed to recordwhat the children said.

(01:02:38):
Wow, I remember even babies.
Because why?
Because only the body is a baby.
That's true. The spirit is not.
The spirit is matured.
And so it's the sameas if you allow the Lord spirit to speak
regardless of the age of your mortal body.

(01:02:59):
Speak out inI'll let you speak out in the Holy Spirit.
Marvelous words.
And so, so yeah.
You know, that should be an interestinginsight also for those
serving in nurseriesor especially primary,
do not think
that just because they're children.

(01:03:19):
Yeah. Okay.
The souls are there some spirits there.
But if the spirit could fully
express himself or herself.
Yeah.
The walls would fill with light
and the fire and it would be phenomenal.

(01:03:40):
Absolutely astounding.
And so to not
just teach them the gospel and so on.
But nothat there was a whole lot more going on
and that you're just feeding something
that, they're mortal
side needs not mean.

(01:04:03):
But when the spiritual
the spirit is in there, it almostfeels like we're living in reverse.
We're coming to know,
you know, because the invitationis to become like a child, right?
Yeah.
But I feel like that innocenceis what helps reveal the reality
of who we really are in our spirit.
Right? It's almost like the like.
It's almost like the body'strying to catch up with the spirit.

(01:04:24):
That'swhat the life is, is given a chance to do.
No, no. But you.
But what you said made me think of that.
But what you say.
But what you're saying. I'm learning,I just.
No, no, no,
what you're saying is that it's helping mesee that even more clearly.
What do you wish that people asked you?
You've had all these you'veyou've been interviewed
about different topics all over the place.
I mean, and mostly it's
been your experiencejoining the church, going on a mission.

(01:04:46):
What do you wishpeople actually asked you?
Did they never have asked you?
Now that's an interesting well,let me put it this way.
Number one, I never thought of myself as,
special or anything.
You know, I, I was, I was,I thought of myself
as one, just as a member of the church and

(01:05:08):
fellow disciple of Jesus Christ.
In fact,that's what I tell my students. Welcome.
Yes. I have a role here as your teacher.
But bottom line,
fundamentally, we're all fellow disciplesof Jesus Christ in this
great journeyin the in the plan of salvation.
So no, I never thought of myself as,

(01:05:32):
special or being a trauma.
Even when I received callings like bishop
or mission president,I, I never thought that.
Well, it's because of my skillsor my talents or, you know,
skills.
Talents.
I knew I had them, but no,that was not the reason why it was called

(01:05:53):
was it was calledwas for reasons that only the Lord knows.
And I never bothered to ask. Okay.
I remember one timeyou had a one of our young missionaries,
on a day over the over transfer,he came to me
and, very, very, you know, sad and,

(01:06:14):
he said, oh, you know, because, you know,
I had an expectation that you were going
to invite me to be one of your assistants.
So you might rather my older brother,and he's me.
Sure. You.
Know, I strive to do everything rightand so on.
And be a good missionary will be obedientand productive and so on.

(01:06:36):
And I told you, look at me.
Let me tell you something. Here.
See this name tags. Your name tags. So
this is not a promotion.
I personally know
a dozen friends of mine,personal friends of mine
who could very wellbe called to be mission presidents

(01:07:01):
and were not called.
So I'm not here.
It's a promotion. What is their reward?
Was I as well? Sure. Yeah.
It's a blast. It's an honor.
But it's not.
It's some of the point.
I'm here for reasonsthat only the Lord moves.
And so
as long as you are faithful,it doesn't matter

(01:07:22):
if you are a leaderor I cease to be the distribute either.
Doesn't matter what mattersthat your faithful that you are.
Ambassador of Jesus Christ.
That was something along those lines,they said.
And so no, that never, never.
I never allowed

(01:07:42):
that thought that, oh, you know,I am a person
that I have to have a message to knowI don't.
And, as far as you know,
the other, questionyou asked me if I had a question.
Are you sure? People ask.
You know, I'm always

(01:08:03):
wishing that people asked meabout what's bothering them.
And I'm always hoping
that I'm able to use the scriptures
and the words of the prophets to,
if not.
And sure,

(01:08:24):
the the issue
that is bothering them, but at leastyou leave them with the hope in Christ
that there will be a solution,whatever it is that's bothering them.
This is how my classes have beenfor decades now.
This is how my
firesides and devotionals are usually,you know, when I speak,

(01:08:48):
you know, you have a massive,you know, about 20 minutes.
And then I open for questionsin state presidencies.
They usually give me an hour, an hourand a half extra to answer questions.
And when I tell them, look at them.
What's bothering you?
What's taking your sleep at night?
Let's talk about that.
If it is not something going to pleaseyou, let's see what the scriptures say.

(01:09:11):
What the what the Lord has said,what these prophets have said.
And so no, I don't have any expectation.
I wish somebody would have asked methis or that.
You know, you want to help that,
they asked me what's in their heartand what's bothering them.
And I hope
that I'm able to at least leave them,

(01:09:34):
if not the answer or a solution,
which sometimes I can't,but at least leave them with that.
Hope that be Jesus Christ.
SomedayI'm going to have a solution to this.
The dilemma that I
face a lot oftentimes is, you know,I grew up
as a member of the church.
I was born in 1983,and my dad was a tough year for me.

(01:09:58):
That was a tough year for you.
Well, go on, go on.
Well that's interesting.
And maybe there's something that'll comefrom this because,
because when it comesto any topic of race, if I bring it up,
it seems like people assumethat I have a bone to pick, right?
But I don't.
And if I don't bring it up, it'salmost like I can never win,

(01:10:19):
no matterwhich direction that I go. Right?
If I bring up, if I bring up anything
that has to do with an Indian, a genuineway to help people or, you know,
it almost seemsas if they just turn off their brain.
Oh, that thing again.
Oh, here we go again.
Where the intention that I haveis to actually,

(01:10:41):
legitimately try to help peoplewhen it comes to this topic.
But my perspective is interesting,
because I do comefrom a multicultural background.
Right?
But it's almost asif I don't talk about it enough.
Then people feel like I'mnot representing them well.
But if I talk about it at all, peopleshut off their brain.
Do you know what I mean?

(01:11:02):
I'm just curiouswhat you think about that.
And in your experience,how that how would you approach
something like that?
Multiculturalism.
Yeah. The church.
You know, I've,I've been known to say this,
this is a
time for activity, not for activism.

(01:11:24):
Yeah. It's just serve.
Let's just serve.
Let's just fulfill our responsibilities.
Let's just receive the,you know, the callings we receive.
Fulfill them diligently and magnify them.
Which, by the way, in Portuguese, we havea better understanding of magnification.

(01:11:47):
English.
In English,people think of magnify your callings.
They think of a magnifying lens. Right?
Yeah.
In Portuguese, you know,because it's a laughing language there.
Oh, no.
We think in terms of being magnificent.
Yeah.
Magnificent job. An excellent job.
So magnify our colleagues and,
and then just let people

(01:12:10):
look at us and say
Yeah.
That she's
Asian or he's Hispanic,
she's blackor she is Mongolian or whatever.
It becomes secondary matter.

(01:12:33):
Yeah.
They're look at us.
Oh no. This is my ministering sister.
It's my ministering brother.
This is my, Sunday school teacher.
This is my.
What are you see, mom becomes the primary,
you know, identifier of the person.
Not the color of the person scheme.
Not the person in the city,not the person's accent.

(01:12:56):
And so that's what we're we're.
It's a time foractivity, not for activism.
I don't
I don't usually, as far as I can remember,
I don't,
Openly
teach people, talk to people

(01:13:16):
about multicultural or race relations,
even though it is my field of expertise,my soul, my
my beauty is in sociology of religion,
race and ethnic relations.
But I don't overdo.
We talk about that,you know, just let's just live,

(01:13:37):
work together, serve together,
council together, fuel the manifestationof the power of the Holy Ghost
in our conversation together.
And then come to the,
right.
So happens that,
and so naturally, it'ssomething that it's there for.

(01:13:58):
I love that it's, the primary identifier.
That's right.
We were identified with one anotherbecause of our discipleship.
Christ.
Because of our servicein the kingdom of God in the church.
That's what becomes our identification,primary identification, primary identity.
And so that's the way I like what it is.

(01:14:20):
I no, I don't in fact, the when
when I'm invited to speak
I often I've seen this happen actually.
And you talk about the starting assembliesfor sure.
I can really what you wantbecause, you know,
I'm there to talk about my researchand being more interesting.

(01:14:42):
And, you know, the interplay of,
technology, which is whatI've been talking more about now,
you know, lastfive years, religion and science
and so on, or religion in social issuesand whatever, we and so on.
I haven't done a whole lot on religiousfreedom.
Well, this is something
that for some of the corners as well,we're very much interested in.

(01:15:05):
I'm not quite therebecause I think we have very,
you know, expert, people with expertise on that
and you know, and,but with law degrees and so on
and or political sciencedegrees and I haven't good.
But I,

(01:15:26):
I, I, I,
I look at this
as, them.
Something that,
sort of primarily me is
the gospel of Jesus Christ discipleship.
That's what's primary,

(01:15:48):
for, for me.
Everything else.
Everything else for me, it's
for you're my host.
You're the like presence.
And you're asking me to speak about this.
Okay, I'll speak about these.
But if you were to give me the option

(01:16:10):
to not talk about thisbecause we have bigger fish to fry.
Yeah, not on the bigger fish,but more delicious fish to fry.
Tell me about it.So so this is interesting to me.
This is very,very interesting to me because to me.
I feel the same way I, I really do,I really do.
I mean, I feel like,

(01:16:33):
It's what you mentioned at the beginning,a lot of that,
of what you had mentioned before, ofjust the idea of having questions.
And it's okay to have questions,but let's look at the ones that matter
the very, very most.
And you said my connection with Godand Jesus Christ is above all the others.
Now, these can still be there.
And they're notthey're not going to go away.
Some of them can be answered,some of them not.

(01:16:55):
But this one matters the most.
Right.
And and not that these don't matter,but I feel like
I feel like a lot of it is.
I just keep on thinking about first Nephi
chapter eight, in the great spaciousbuilding, the midst of darkness.
But the tree, the tree is the focalpoint of the whole dream.
And Lehigh

(01:17:16):
standing at the treeand he's begging people to take it.
And he says it is desirable of allever fruit than I'd ever before tasted.
It was pure. Right?
And, why do you think that it isthat some of these.
How do you,
I guess maybe what I'm going
for, too, is ElderHolland has this quote that I love.

(01:17:38):
He says the past is to be learned from,not to be lived in.
And you're even saying,I would rather talk about something else
than even the experience that peoplelook at you and they're thinking,
wow, Marcus Martinez,he was the first missionary
people want to dwell on that, right?
And you're saying I would rather talkabout this other stuff?
Yeah, because this other stuffis the stuff that really matters for me.

(01:18:01):
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.
So yeah, I like the way you ProvoElder Holland's book,
but it's a little especially the ordinanceof the House of the Lord,
the gateway to Eternity.
You see, I remember once, my wife and I had been serving
as hard news workers in the SeattleWashington Temple.

(01:18:24):
And I remember once, telling two young men
who are ordinance workers there, you know,preparing for their missions.
And, I remember telling them, you know.
Participating in templeordinances, the closest
we can get to the veil without dying.

(01:18:46):
I tell you so, look, you know,
the closestwe can get to the veil without dying.
And what's behind the veil
is perfect.
It's glorious.
And none of these earthly being perfect.
You know, barbed or some things

(01:19:09):
are going to exist there.
So why should I keep,
you know,spending my brainpower on things?
There are not going to last foreverwhen I can spend, you know,
focus on things that will prepare me forwhat's behind the veil

(01:19:30):
and the things that arebehind the veil last forever.
And so it's a
matter of like,we make the best use of money.
You know, my neurons here in my heart.
And,
so, you know,we have to talk about the principles
of the gospel of Jesus Christ,you know, for example, the you leaving,

(01:19:53):
how can I and can we better,you know, refine our discipleship
and acquirethe discipline of discipleship?
That's something I used to talk a lot
to my missionariesthere, the discipline of discipleship.
And, I would rather talk about that to them.
Oh, blacks in the priesthood and so on.

(01:20:14):
And or or other, you know, church history,you know,
controversial matters and so on. But
but we but still understandingthat as human beings,
we have that intellectual curiositynow that I don't have, I have.
But as
I said before, probably about an hour ago

(01:20:34):
I said that, my faith
keeps my intellectual curiosity in check.
My faith, my testimony
keep my curiosity in check.
It's my relationship with Godand Jesus Christ.
I want to be one with them.
I want to be one with Christas Christ is one with the father.

(01:20:55):
I just gave me, later,
you know, you get, I mean, the April.
I'm sorry of this year, 20, 25,gave a lecture at,
BYU at their Easter conference.
Precisely.
On this topic and,
you know, so moving on, usingwriting this

(01:21:17):
to be one with him as he'sone with the father.
And it's just mathematicsto, you know, the associative property
in mathematics, if A equals b and bequals c, then you will see,
in Christ.
In Christ is one with God, then yeah.
Would we be one with the father?
And, and once we reach that unity

(01:21:41):
through faith, repentance
through the ordinances, particularlythe ordinance of the house of the Lord,
and then living up to the covenants
we've made, the honoring those covenants,
you know, especially in our homes,because it's easier
to one of the covenants in church.
But only those garbage in our homes,

(01:22:06):
them,
you know, you know,these are the things that we ought to be
focused, far more focused,focusing far more then all of these.
These are the things are we goingto have an impact for eternity?
And, so that'll that'll be my,
my preference always to speak aboutthese matters rather than,

(01:22:31):
I love that.
But, you know, we live in this world. Yep.
We live in this world.
You mentioned,Leroy's dream and Nephi's vision. Yes.
There was a tree,but the tree was in that world.
And that vast expanse, their field
spans that that, these, like, walk, etc.
felt like our in this field, thatit was dark until we came to that point.

(01:22:57):
They're still thereand they're still, you know,
cloud of darkness around and,
and yeah, there is the great,great and spacious building.
There is the river of filthy waters.
So reachingthe tree does not take us out of density.

(01:23:18):
We're still.
That location.
But if we continue to eat
the food and state,most of the tree will be safe.
But the
interesting thing is that the trainingjust shows that it doesn't show
what happens after people digest the food.

(01:23:41):
Remember, they are eating the food.
And the only thing that Lehigh
never tells usthat they tasted the food and was sweet
the most is was deathwas beautiful, sweet.
But they don't tell us,okay, what is the effect
once they have eaten?
What is the effect of that fruitonce it is digested?

(01:24:04):
We're not told in that.
What do you think it is?
Transformation.
Change the power of the Savior's
Atonement and resurrection.
Which then will take people
out of that setting.
But until then they are in that setting.

(01:24:25):
So the secret is equal to the tree
until the Lord says,okay, you have eaten enough of the fruit.
You already know for me to
date you some someplace else.
What you eat affects a lot ofwhat do you who you are.
I mean, you know it.
It transforms who you are, what you eat,and that food, you know,

(01:24:46):
it is interesting how,
you know, we in that, lecture
I gave in 2020, I talk a lot about this.
And so why did the Lord chose digestion?
Oh, yeah.
We didn't make, this covenantthrough the sacrament

(01:25:06):
by eating a piece of bread,
like drinking a bit of water.
You know, all the dispensations. Wine.
Why eat, why drink.
Why not just the professor.
I believe I know that.
Why do you have to actually ingest.

(01:25:28):
And if you ingest
there's like just too.
No. Sure the sacrament, the symbolic.
But our, our spirits
receiving something that they digest
I know I'm going to ultimately it's okayI'm going I'm going to leave here

(01:25:50):
as they sayin Brazil, I'm sliding on the mayonnaise.
Have this expression in Brazil.
Well, I'm
a you're sliding on the mayonnaise,
and then past it and.
Oh, am I going to mayonnaise?
But, but I think it is very interesting.
So why digestion.

(01:26:11):
You know, looking old,the Lord told Moses brings,
you know, Adam and Joshua and 70
elders up to the mountain and,I'm going to show myself to you.
So nobody goes off to that partyand they see the Lord,
and it says that they eat before the Lord

(01:26:32):
and he eats
him. Why eating?
So so
yeah there's this concept of willyou have to incorporate.
Internally incorporate.
And so we have so many things to explore,so many

(01:26:55):
very interesting thingsthat are going to directly
impact our discipleship
and fill us with a greater view
of what's to come, what the Lord has, what
blessings and powers and privilegeshe has for us.
Powerful.

(01:27:15):
I don't feel desire to talkabout all the fasting in the 19th century.
I don't want to. I'm the 21st century.
What's ahead of me? And thou?
That's what it.
And then what do I need to do.
What are the things that the Lordhas made available to me.
And now symbolically
that I need to understandwhat these symbols stand for

(01:27:39):
in preparation for the great things.
So we are getting the Nelsondispensation was like all of them.
Look, you know,if you made that prophetic promise
in the days in old
which we now in the time of the Savior'sreturn, he's going to,
we're see the greater manifestgreatest manifestation in the world

(01:27:59):
our world has ever seen.
And it will bestow leadersprivileges and blessings.
Okay, great.
How do I prepare for that?
And the and I already have
already have the tools here.
But the tools for me to prepareare not in the 19th century.
They're here now.

(01:28:21):
And there. Ooh.
In ways that are understandable,intelligible for me now.
Which is, for example, other people
because, you know, the changesthey've been making, in the temple local,
they're making changesto make it more efficient for you
to focus on what's really essentialfor these things that are coming.

(01:28:48):
It's notthat the other things are not important.
It's just a they are not essential.
They're reducing it down to the keyto the bones.
This is what's this?
The the the bones.
This is what's most, you know,
putting almost and,in essential changeable

(01:29:10):
and fundamentals
and so. Okay.
All right.
So let the genes come.
So, you know, the darker coat,you do the same.
The coffins are the same,the blessings are the same.
But you have the sense that, oh,
we're not getting to the essentials.

(01:29:33):
What do we need to understand here?
And that's where I tell my students.
Look, whenever you go to the temple,you get their change.
And while as you were waiting,
do want to, Eli,
the priest told you, young Samuel.
Yeah.
Speak, Lord, for the seventh heareth.

(01:29:57):
Hear him for the servant heareth.
And, What, president Nelson?
But President Nelson said the same thinghere.
Him like the.
Yeah,but I say every time you go to the temple,
speak, Lord, for there's someone for you.
And, And then what does that mean, though?
What does it mean?
Like that's then freeand you pay up the issue.

(01:30:19):
Go with the magnitude of somebody who wasgoing for the first time all over again.
Pay attention to everything.
Observe everything about everything,
and don't just go forjust this one audience.
Go to some other audience.
Every time you go,go to the some other audience.
Pay attention to the words.

(01:30:41):
Go to the dictionary.
What do these words mean?
What is the definition of these words?
What is the etymology?
The origin of these words?
You see, a lot of what we doin the exercise of the priest
is mediated by language.
It's mediated by language,
the sacred language.

(01:31:03):
Oh, we're going to confirm somebody'sa member of the church language.
But a blessa baby language is mediated by language.
You know, all Satya, you know, you know,
God fought to save the world
by the foolishness of preaching.
And that's more than that.
That's what it is. You know,

(01:31:24):
the Prophet Joseph is called the, the,the prism of pen and paper.
Yeah. He's on building paper.
But that's what we have.
So what do these words meanif the, the words are the tools
that the Lord is using to educate us,
you know, more going in perfect minds.
What do the words mean?

(01:31:45):
And so we have to pay attention to them.
Let's go to the dictionary and
and finding their meaning.
And eventually
things are going to come throughfor the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost.
And so, yeah, you're on the right track.You're on the right track.
Yeah, you're getting it.
You got it getting warm.
You're getting warmer getting warmer.
Until we get to the point that hopefullyyou know we'll get all of us,

(01:32:09):
we'll get the point of the veil,we can move around.
You know.
We can't, you won't
I love this I, I, I, I, I,I love it as well.
And I hope that I live long enoughhere to see this
because, you know, once I'mon the other side of the veil, that's,

(01:32:30):
that's a given.
We will have that.
The righteous will have that.
But here.
So time will tell, time will tell. But,
but it all starts with our attention
to these things, you know,
what do these words mean?
Even though the the words of the sacramentand all the taking,

(01:32:53):
it being intentional about it?
Hum.
To bless and sanctify, I mean, to bless.
We should, we know what it means.
You see all the definitions for bless,for the verbiage.
Bless what? The virtue sanctify.

(01:33:16):
See all the definition of the wordto witness
unto thee. Oh, yeah.
I mean, to me, to meit makes me think of revelation 12.
It says how the overcamewas through the blood of the lamb
and their testimony, their witness of him.
You know, it wouldn'tin that every seven days

(01:33:38):
we partake of the sacrament,and I feel like
we can't be asleep on it.
You know, it's like we have to really takeit seriously, right?
It makes me even think, I mean,to what you're even saying to to just.
I hear you saying, going back to alma again, right?
Can you feel it?
Can you feel so now, right now,you had an experience and it was powerful.

(01:34:01):
But what about today?
What are we doing today?
That's going to help usprepare for the day?
That.
Because when he says in Moroni seven,when he shall appear,
we shall be like him, forwe shall see him as he is right.
And he's taught.
But that takes us doing somethingnow, today, now.
But that's the thing, right?
Doing things now.

(01:34:22):
One other thing to do thatwe what we do now
may matters in the scheme of things.
So with that said, though,I was curious when you were talking,
what are the implications of yeah,there are questions.
Yeah. There are things that people havethat there are concerns.
But what are the implications when we
don't
focus on the essentials,the bare the, the,

(01:34:45):
the things that do matter foreverfrom your perspective?
Well, we got into this, you know,
into this, endless,
you know, discussionsthat don't take us anywhere.
You just keep circlingbecause we don't have
verb sufficiently information about it.
And, we don't have revelations about.

(01:35:06):
And the Lord has not chosento explain certain things.
And you also be running circles, whereaswe should be on the.
You see,we are on a straight and narrow path.
Okay.
If it is straight,it means we have to be moving
forward.
And if I use this term, press forward

(01:35:27):
with steadfastness in Christ pressfor which did not
keep circling around moving in circles.
Okay. God moves in circles.
Yeah.
His course is one eternal round.
Ours is not.
Wow. Tell me what you mean by thatbecause that is deep.

(01:35:49):
But I'm saying the differencebetween the difference.
Right. What is the significance of what.
What's the significanceof saying that already. God.
God. Yeah, man.
We have a journey hereand we have to press forward.
We have a direction to go.
And so we need to understand that,you know, that everything we do here

(01:36:09):
matters even in our daily affairs, youknow, taking care of our homes and so on.
Everythingis part of the plan of salvation.
Everything is part of salvation.
Doing the dishes, you know,doing our laundry, paying our bills,
you know, because we needto maintain this bodies here,
these bodies are tools for us to obtain

(01:36:32):
all the blessings that the Heavenly Fatherhas for exaltation, eternal life.
And so all the things that are necessaryto maintain these bodies are integral
parts of the plan of salvation.
So between the education,so I can have a job that through
which I will have the, the, the,the income to pay for my clothing,
you pay for my food, for health careand so on.

(01:36:54):
All these are part of the plan.
So in the end, we come to a point where,
you know the line between what's secular,
what's deemed pro mature,and what's spiritual is very simple.
You know, it's very simple.
Everything pretty muchis part of the plan of salvation.
My entertainmentis part of the plan of salvation. Yeah.

(01:37:14):
I need to have, you know, mental healthand I need to be, you know,
to have moments of because, you know,an hour ago, they might have joy.
Well,that includes also having some fun. So on.
And especially, you know, with the family,
you know, in the realm of having one'sfamily with friends and so on,
it's all part of the plan of salvation.

(01:37:35):
What I love about you lot is when you dotalk about the future, you seem to.
There's this like this excitementthat's in you.
There's like this,it just feels very hopeful.
It feels very,
I want to say I don't want to soundlike a cliche word illuminating.
What do youwhat do you hope for in the future
if it is to focus on that path straight?

(01:37:57):
What is that? What are you looking at?
What do you seewhenever you are imagining this?
The same thingyou and everybody else sees.
They.
In fact,that's what alma, you are going back to.
What would be on your own. Chapter five.
And you seethis body raised in immortality.

(01:38:17):
That that's,
I want to see this bodyraised in immortality.
With my wife at my side.
I'm hoping that she wants me at her side.
You, that's where, you know.
And so, yeah, in the family realm,we have to be very, very attentive
to live the gospel and make very good,
you know, relationships with our spouses,because that's critical.

(01:38:42):
If she doesn't want to come with me,then I'm not getting there.
Yeah.
You're saying that it's not overuntil she decides later on that you.
You know, just yesterdayI mentioned that you, my,
my students at BYU here.
But isn't that true? That's true though.
So, you know, you,if you think of final judgments looking up

(01:39:06):
the key witness,
the so-called final judgment,because I don't think it's
going to be a courtroom,you know, celestial courtrooms.
And, the key witnesswill be for the man will be,
their wives.
Their wives going to be the key witness.

(01:39:28):
And so my wife will be
the one who's going to tell the Lord,your Lord, you know, you can keep it.
You, him.
He is worth it.
He's worth it,you know, want to be the man.
I want to be thereand I'll be there with him.
If we have this, you know,I often tell this book
if we if we have the correct conception

(01:39:53):
of the role, we have
and the status that they have
since the days of our motherEve in the priesthood.
And I'm seeing,
this day and age, slow,
but sure, restoration of that status
that our mother Eve had in the priesthood.

(01:40:15):
We would worship the groundon which our wives walk.
We roll the red carpet in front of them.
We will never,you know, disrespect or abuse them ever.
There's so much about
what's aheadin terms of eternal blessings.
Depends on her.

(01:40:37):
Wow. Yeah, we can say that again.
Wow. I yeah,
I just I mean, it just makes me it'sjust makes me think of the temple, man.
My marriagebe something that my wife would say.
Lord, please.
I want to be forever with you.
Please.
Instead of, You know, it's been tough.

(01:40:59):
You know, we really have to spend eternitywith this,
That's all.
It's all of you don't get to that ceilingby the Holy Spirit.
The promise that it's in the code section132, verse nine.
People think that that be sure to be,that the married by and by my Lord,
which is my lawand the new and everlasting covenant,
and it is sealed unto themby the Holy Spirit from

(01:41:22):
they think that that you receivedby the Holy Spirit promised is the
one who sealing the temple.
It's not it's not final stamp of approvalthat the Holy Ghost will give.
And they'll say, yes,you guys have a marriage that both of you
desire this relationshipto remain forever.
So here it is.
Stamp approved by choice two.

(01:41:44):
Yeah.
Which, brings us to a realization that,
you know, we,we use this term even in the handbooks.
And so, yeah, when couples are sealed,when couples are sealed
and couples are sealed,
actually, technically speaking,if you think about it,
couples are not sealed.
We are pronounced husbands and wives.

(01:42:05):
But y'all thought of the threesome.
We're not sealed.
Children are sealed.Your father and mother.
But men and women are not sealed
to each other until now.
Husbands and wives.
And then they have blessings.
Blessings sealed upon them.

(01:42:26):
And the,the implication of that is very simple.
The duration of their relationship
of that marriage will be determined
by their exercise of agency
as individuals and as a couple.
Wow. I never considered that. Yeah.
The duration.
Now, if they have a relationshipthat it is mutually desirable

(01:42:52):
joyful for them comb for gene.
Over the years of their lives,you know, into their old age and so on.
Then
them you will see that, you know,they will get to that point
where they will have that seal,but the Holy Spirit of promise

(01:43:15):
and the relationship then will indeed last
for as long as the priesthood lasts.
And the priesthood is eternal,so the relationship will be eternal.
But for now,we're still in that testing ground there.
And we have to prove
to our spouses every daythat are looking to

(01:43:37):
marryme was the best thing you could have done.
And staying with me is the best thing
you can do in this life and the next.
And you have to provethat every single day.
And I think also you're,you're you're learning
and growing togetherin the process. Right?
Oh yeah.
You know, you know, as we're,we're we're not static.

(01:43:59):
We're always changing.
When I thought, marriage,
BYU, Hawaii or the yearsI was there, I, I told them, well,
you may think about, teaching these things because you're young
and so to know, marriage requires
continuous adaptation.
And we have temptationas we age, we change.

(01:44:23):
Yeah.
My wife married 45 years ago.
Different
if I'm still alive and she's still alive
20 years from now, we're not going to bethe same people we are today.
Our mindset will change.
Not only our bodies, our appearance,but our mindsets,
our emotions,our responses to more change.

(01:44:45):
And so we will have to continuallywe're continual,
continually newlyweds. So,
because we
look at, when we're in our 30s,you have married with something,
you know, in our 60swith, with six different areas now
and then we're, we're septuagenariansand octogenarians.
Yeah.

(01:45:05):
We're always relearning how, okay,how do we handle this now?
You know, we're different now.
And, and we have all these quirks of old age.
You know,we don't hear very well, you know,
things.
And, become, you know, cranky.
And I think that's the same thingyou were saying before.
I feel like it just keeps coming back.It keeps coming back.

(01:45:26):
As we get older, we look back differentlyto the past, and we're constantly aging.
Right. I'm looking up there, okay?
My relationship with my HeavenlyFather continues saying,
you know, my body is decaying,
but my spirit does not decay.
So the body eventually is going to fail mecompletely

(01:45:50):
and I'm going to that mission,but there's not going to be two years
with my spirit.
And so everything that I do here matters.
And that's the beauty of the darknessof the plan of salvation.
Because everything that I develop,all these
relationships with spouse and children

(01:46:11):
and grandchildren,we're going to carry all this with us.
You know the old adage,oh, you know, you, you
you cannot take anythingfrom this world with you.
That's what that means.
Yeah. Yeah.
Our love for others,we think all relationships.
It's just that the relationshipshave to be

(01:46:33):
confirmed and established
firm by your father to be establishedby the authority of the priest.
Interesting.
But that's but that's what linksall the other relationships to children.
Right.
Yeah.
We don't we don't this life with us.
And these are things I can know, right.That's right.
So it pays to then
pay attention to looking atwhat am I doing now

(01:46:57):
to convince this person to be
that staying with me is the best thing,
that she would not be better offwith some other man.
It's not over till it's over, right?
And we can choose. So.
So you mentioned the essentialsif you were to just give it to me.

(01:47:17):
Just these are the essentialsthat I want to focus on.
What would those be?
Well,
Christ.
Let's look at them.
How am I incorporating any
the virtues that Jesus Christ exemplified.

(01:47:39):
That's what I all that
for a missionary of mine to simplify,
don't philosophizeand to find some mathematical equation,
and statistical,you know, analysis of, no probabilities.
No, no, no, no, no,
just come to Christ

(01:47:59):
or come to a state of Christ like ness.
Be like Christ, which means that you haveto continually be studying his life,
his ministry, particularly his ministryamong the Nephites and the Lamanites,
which is where we get farmore of his character.
Character.
Because you see in the, in the old world.

(01:48:23):
Yeah.
You know, we had to have a lotfrom Christ character.
But there he was, dealing withsome people who believe with him.
Others? Would you not believe in him?
Others who badmouthed him called him,you know, son of Delio
and, partner of the devil.
And so sometimes you have to be a little,you know, intense.

(01:48:43):
You but I'm I'm going to be fightingthe Lamanites.
He was among people who were righteousenough to receive his presence.
That's what we read.
Third Nephi, mind you,we were spared of all the destruction
because you were more righteousthan the others.
So he was among the righteous.
And so he did things there that hehe told them, look, you know,

(01:49:04):
I could not perform some of these miraclesbecause of the government
unbelief over there back in Jerusalem.
And so looking at this mortal ministryin the New Testament
and looking at his postmortal ministry in the Book of Mormon,
we learn more about these character
and then it's okay.

(01:49:26):
What about you.
How he by incorporatingsome of those virtues.
How is my character aligningwith the character of Jesus Christ.
So instead of looking only a few boilsdown to these, that's closely.
And what's his character like?
How would you just how would you say it?
Well, there's many aspects of Jew
Jewish character,but that's what you have to see.

(01:49:47):
You have to seehow did he deal with people?
How do you interact with them?
Yeah.
To me, I'm asking
because I think that that'sa good perspective for all of us, right?
If that is what we're looking toward,right.
If that is what we're looking to become,how do you see how do you see that?
It's right there.
And you spoke with them.
You allow them to come toward him.

(01:50:09):
He allowed them to, listen to his voice.
He blessed them.
He prayed with and for them and, healer.
They're sick and,you know, gave instructions
and, bless their little children
and brought angels down.

(01:50:29):
We have to do the same thing.
In fact, he told the 12, you know,that in my church,
the things that you have seen medo don't do.
So this is the last question I have.
I just want I'm just curious.
You just go back at full circle.
You talked aboutthis is an intellectual, religion.

(01:50:50):
This is an intellectual gospel.
And intelligent.
Intelligent is a where you.
And if you were to be ableto, you had students
that have multiple questionsof all various kinds.
If you were to be able to sit downwith one of them
right now, and you just explained to themwhat you would hope for them
to truly know and understandwhat you've come to know and understand

(01:51:13):
that could help them with whateverstruggle or whatever challenge they face.
What would you say to them?
Well, I'm
assuming that I would have only one chance
to talk to that student,
and after that, thatwe don't have any other chance to speak.
I'll just say we read the Book of Mormon

(01:51:35):
in the spirit of prayer,
pondering and praying.
The Book of Mormonwas the key to conversion,
but it was also the key to conversion,
and it is the key to maintaining
our state of conversion.
I'm thankful that you came.
I'm thankfulthat we had this conversation.

(01:51:56):
And, for those of youwho are watching this or listening,
I believe I know thatwhat we've talked about is true.
It's up to you to go to Godand find out for yourself.
This is StephenJones. This is let's get real.
Until next time.

(01:57:05):
And then, not
long after that,I was also called, which would be because,
you know, I had been learning to be an onand off, you know?
And how old are you?
How old are you?
I was 13, 13.
So when I was 15 years old.
Yeah, 14, 15 years old.
I was going to be the,because I have been studying music

(01:57:26):
a little bit, and,so I was called to be the Sunday
school musicdirector for the lead, the music chorus.
But the corner story.
So the school Sunday school was in themorning sacrament meeting the afternoon.
So I'm just going and opening the chapteropening exercises.
Part of the openingexercise were ten minutes of hymn practice

(01:57:50):
and I was
responsible for the in practiceyou led me to him.
So we had a piano at home, so Ididn't play, but I knew how to read notes,
and so I would learn the hymns, at homeand then on Sunday.
Oh, and so that's when I startedspeaking in church every Sunday.
Every Sunday I would have to goand practice the hymns with, with,

(01:58:12):
the congregation, teach themhow to sing with hymn 13 year old,
14, 14 I was 15.
Wow. Yeah.

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Marcus Martins | First Black Missionary After the 1978 Revelation - E0037

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