When Chris DeCardy took the reins of the Heinz Endowments last year, he was one of the very few former foundation communications directors to ascend to the lofty heights of president. And Chris has dived in with the energy of a teenager. Indeed, if there is a more energetic – nay, ebullient – foundation president in the land, we haven’t met them.
Chris makes an extremely compelling case about how crucial western Pennsylvania is to our national and even international politics, and while he’s at it he reminds us how important intelligent communications strategies will be to build on important victories (like significant advances on climate, for one example).
Don’t miss this conversation between Eric and Chris, whose friendship dates back to the twentieth century, as they talk about how Chris’s background in journalism, environmental communications, and foundation leadership have led him to this place – the center of the universe!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Music.
(00:13):
Kirk. And I'm Eric. The podcast is sponsored by the College Futures Foundation,
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(00:40):
And if you like the show, please, please, please rate us on Apple Podcasts so
that more people can find us. So let's get on to the show.
And we're back. Welcome in. It's another edition of Let's Hear It.
We're so glad you found us, so glad to have you here.
And Mr. Brown, so excited for this conversation we're about to hear,
(01:02):
this conversation that's ahead.
I feel like we should be at the bar and we should just scream,
Chris, and welcome him through the door.
Talk about what we're about to listen to. This is This is awesome. This is awesome.
Kirk, you really need to pep up.
I can't help it. This is like, this conversation is like watching Babe Ruth
(01:22):
step up to the plate, point to the
outfield, and said four runs across the plate. This is an all-time pro.
Go ahead. Set it up. This is awesome. Great.
This is the best. This is the best. This is the best. This is great.
I think you need more caffeine. You're a little low. You're a little low energy.
You're a little Jeb Bushy.
(01:43):
I finally had the opportunity to interview my pal, Chris Ducati,
whom I've known for a very, very long time.
And he is now the president of the Heinz Endowments in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
He was the vice president at the David and Lucille Packard Foundation for quite
(02:03):
some time. He was my counterpart at Packard when I was head of comms at Hewlett.
He helped me get my job at Hewlett. I tithe him.
I just write a 10% check of anything that comes in to Chris because he is single-handedly
responsible for my career.
And what a delight it was to have this conversation with him as the Grand High
(02:24):
Exalted Mystic Poobah of Pittsburgh.
Yeah. And what a role, what an important role as president of the Heinz Endowments.
And the personal relationship between you and Chris should not dampen the understanding
of the significance of the roles that Chris has held over his tenure, his career.
You mean the fact that he knows me shouldn't diminish his stature?
(02:47):
Yeah, he's punching down.
He's punching down a little bit of this conversation.
But being the first communications person at the Packard Foundation and then
being in a senior leadership role at the Packard Foundation and then helping
launch Climate Works and then helping facilitate leadership transition for Climate
Works, this is some of the most important philanthropy,
some of the most important initiatives in the history of the world.
(03:09):
And now Chris being in Pittsburgh at the Heinz Foundation, oh my goodness,
what a gift to them, but also what a gift to us that we get to listen to this
conversation and what generosity.
And of course, Chris succeeded. He's a pro. He butters up the co-host at the end of your interview.
He knows. He's smart because he really knows where the power lies here.
He knows how to play this. So let's listen.
(03:30):
This is an extraordinary conversation
between Chris DiCardia of the Heinz Endowments on Let's Hear It.
Welcome to Let's Hear It. But folks, you know, in sitcoms, they say there's
a very special episode of Facts of Life or something like this.
Well, folks, this is an extremely very special episode of Let's Hear It.
(03:50):
My guest today is Chris Ducardi.
Yep, Chris Ducardi, the president of the Heinz Endowments and a former super
duper wiggly worm like many of us who has made good.
The kid made good. But Chris, I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to have this conversation.
I am really glad to be here. I can't tell you how terrified I am about how this
(04:14):
conversation is going to go, having known you for way longer than either one
of us wants to care to admit.
So it's good to be here. That's right. We have fulsome heads of hair.
Thank you for being willing to subject yourself to this conversation.
By all means. And look, congratulations. What you and Kirk have done here is fabulous.
Fabulous you've got something that's valuable that is
(04:37):
connecting communications and philanthropy in the non-profit world in
a unique and important way so congratulations to you for
what you've done for a number of years it's really important it's cool thank you
you're hired good i get i get to stay well actually i i am remiss to not say
that you are now soon to be the host of your own podcast we can be following
(04:57):
in the footsteps or maybe cleaning up the mess of your predecessor predecessor,
Grant Oliphant, whose podcast,
you know, it was great.
But how do you feel about that before we even get into any of this stuff?
How do you feel about being your own podcaster in addition to running a many
billion dollar foundation?
Yeah, I'm excited. I've never done this before. I think what you and many others
(05:19):
are proving is that there is a role and an important.
Place for podcasts in the ecosystem of delivering important messages to key
audiences in this. And there are a lot of podcasts out there that are terrible, are awful.
You and I have known Grant, and so we can poke fun, or you can poke fun.
I'm not. Oh, you're not allowed to poke fun at him yet? No, I'm completely allowed to poke fun at him.
But I won't in this instance, because I think the podcast and what they built
(05:41):
here is a really interesting tool.
And the people they featured are critical for the future of the world,
for what they're doing here in Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania.
So it's fun for me to enter in and to learn about this from a team that we have here.
And they'll have to put up with me as I'm new at doing this.
So my entire reason for joining you, Eric, is so that I could watch and learn
from you in real time and then mimic what I do next.
(06:04):
All right. I'm going to take that with a block of salt, but thank you. Fair enough.
All right, Chris, for folks who don't know you, and maybe there are some,
let's just get into your little background.
How did you end up in your August role as president of the Heinz Endowments?
It's the who am I and why am I here question. James Stockdale question.
That's right. It didn't work for him, but I'm sure it will for you.
(06:26):
No, and the reason it didn't work for him, and for those of you under the age
of 50, go look it up because it's actually a pretty remarkable clip,
is that he was so good in setting up the question,
who am I and why am I here, that everybody was convinced he had no idea what the answer is.
And of course, when it's self-referential like that, that's not a good good place to be.
(06:48):
And to save people the Google search, James Stockdale was Ross Perot's running mate in 1980.
92. Sorry, say yeah, 92. And of course, that didn't go well for him.
Yeah. So, all right, who am I and why I'm here? Well, I'll give you the why I'm here first.
Pittsburgh is the center of the universe and that's why I'm here.
(07:09):
So now, I completely understand that. My goal in my tenure here is that when
I say Pittsburgh is the center of the the universe, nobody's going to laugh.
They're going to say, well, yeah, I completely get it. And so why is Pittsburgh
the center of the universe?
I'm going to give you the three-step process. And in true debate fashion,
you can tell me if any one of my priors is false.
So step number one is we are in this massive transformation as a nation.
(07:33):
Your podcast touches on it all the time. We're moving from the industrial to post-industrial age.
We're in this really uncomfortable spot, all sorts of division,
all sorts of othering. What do you do? you get scared, you turn inward,
you look to nostalgia, all that kind of stuff, right?
And it's not entirely clear we're going to get through to the other side.
I think philanthropy has the business of getting through to the other side.
We can talk more about that, but that's prior one. That's what we're into as a world.
(07:55):
And the world hasn't figured out how to get to the other side.
So if the world is going to get to the other side, the United States of America
is going to have to get to the other side. If we don't, the world's going down.
And if the United States of America is going to get to the other side,
Pennsylvania is going to have to get the other side because about the next three
election cycles, it is going to be a crucial, critical swing state.
And if Pennsylvania is going to get there, Western Pennsylvania is going to
have to lead because of the history, because of the unique role we play. So.
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By that logic, Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania is the center of the universe.
And if we can play our part at the Heinz Endowments in working with the incredible
people in this region toward that hopeful, inclusive, optimistic future where
everybody sees themselves economically and culturally,
then we will have played an incredible part of bending the light in the universe
(08:42):
toward the future we want for our kids. So that's why I'm here.
How did I get in? You asked the question. Let me interrupt you for a second. Damn.
You're right. Yeah. Good. Now continue. Good. All right, good.
So convinced once. So now when I say I'm here because Pittsburgh and Windsor,
Pennsylvania is the center of the universe, you completely get it.
And you're like, oh yeah, I know exactly why.
(09:03):
And my goal is to make sure that more and more people understand why and that
we get through. And I'm super excited to play my part in that.
So how did I get here? And you referenced me as the wiggly worm.
And I think the wiggly worm is some reference to us plush schlubs who came from
communications and issue communications and strategic communications and efforts
trying to convince audiences that don't want to be convinced about things that
(09:23):
we care about in the world and that history. That is my history.
So, you know, the resume is grew up in the Midwest, journalism undergrad,
go off to the Peace Corps to try to figure stuff out, come back.
And I moved to what was my center of the universe then, which was Washington, DC.
And I moved there because I was committed that journalism communications could change the world.
Cause I grew up with Woodward in Bernstein and Watergate, and they did it.
(09:47):
And I grew up with Uncle Walter on CBS Evening News telling me that's the way
it is. And I believed that too.
And so I wanted to go to DC and figure that all out.
And I ended up not being a journalist. You stumble into things in life.
I was very fortunate that I got a chance to work as an entry-level peon at a
socially progressive PR firm
(10:07):
called Fenton Communications that did extraordinary work then, still does.
You were an intern at Fenton? So, no, I was a paid, what's the lowest, a centipede?
What's the lowest wiggly worm on your, we're going to have to go to biology
on this. Aramecium? I don't know.
Yeah, something like that. And then in life, you know, you get exposed to a
(10:29):
bunch of stuff, you get to learn a ton of stuff. And I did.
And I was like, wow, it's just fascinating. You can actually help organize people
and ideas to try to pressure a political system for social change.
And I just got the bug. Yeah.
I go to grad school, and then I help come back and launch something that was
really cool, which was environmental media services.
And that model, it's now resource media, which is, again, this fabulous organization
(10:52):
that's gone far, farther than those of us that there at the beginning ever imagined.
But the model was a great model because it said rather than it paid to then
say this issue or this report or this person needs to get a lot of attention,
you actually went to the comms folks and you said, actually,
this issue needs to change in
this way. Now, how are you going to build campaigns to make that happen?
(11:14):
I mean, we can talk a lot more about that, but that model in that way is incredibly
freeing and gave us a chance to do some really powerful and good stuff when we did it well.
And when we screwed it up, we screwed it up royally all the time for all the
reasons all organizations screw it up. But that involved raising money from foundations.
One of our foundations was the David and Lucille Packard Foundation.
And at a certain point, they approached and said, hey, we want to build out
(11:34):
a communications function that actually takes some of that magic around issues
as the priority about what and how we do our work integrated with our programs.
And it was an empty lot. The communications function at the Packard Foundation
at the time didn't exist, right? Yeah, pretty much. That's right.
It was an annual report and a couple of responsive things.
And we should have a website, but it was one of those early rudimentary websites,
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which was fabulous. So right, you know, deep commitment.
The president who had been there for just a few years was Dick Schlossberg,
who had been the former publisher of the LA Times and ended up being a mentor
of mine that I respected in so many ways.
But his belief in the power of communications was there from the beginning and
how to put that together. So I had a chance to join an incredible organization
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with an incredible team inside of philanthropy and over 18 years there,
had the chance to be able to take on more responsibility.
And in that transition, ended up being the vice president and director of programs
across all of our grant making.
So, partially, you're talking about sort of that evolution in a career that
starts out very much communications-focused, audience-focused,
(12:36):
moves towards issues, out of issues, says, well, how do we build these campaigns
with all these components, working in an organization that really wanted to make that happen?
And the opportunity to then lead on all of those components was a real gift,
and it was fortunate that I could be there. And when you got kicked upstairs,
how did you feel about, did your relationship to the communications work change at all?
(12:56):
Did you have a, given that it wasn't your primary responsibility,
but you had oversight on it, did that affect your perspective on how the foundation
could and should use communications?
That's a really good question. I've never really thought about it that way.
So this is a just off the cuff on it.
One thing is that I feel for the communications directors who are fabulous that
(13:19):
followed me because the last thing you want is your boss that actually thinks
they know how to do your job when you're better at it than they are.
So, and they did a really nice job.
And Felicia Madsen, who is still there now and is fantastic.
Was wonderful about putting up with me and getting the best out of me.
But broadening out your question on that, I will honestly say no, it really didn't.
(13:43):
Because my belief was that the communications function needed to continually
be better integrated in the upfront so we could have greater impact.
And that stayed top of mind. I suppose when you're in a role where you're also
looking across the entire institution,
rather than looking for the piece that you are most responsible for,
(14:05):
I suppose I started to see things a little bit more in gray than in black and
white, but fundamentally it stayed the same.
If I could digress for a minute. Please digress.
This is your show. It's kind of you. It's your show.
I'm just visiting. I'm just, I'm just the, I tee it up and you get to spike it.
So it's going from doing the communications piece to then being responsible
(14:26):
for integrating it and hopefully helping it be better on behalf of the entire
institution, its mission.
I was actually reflecting on
this, which is I know so little about the tactics of communications now.
I mean, social media came after I started doing this work.
And so i do believe that a lot of the strategic questions
are exactly the same ones but tactically i'm useless
to everybody in this except i think there are
(14:47):
a couple truisms that are still so prevalent in the philanthropic and non-profit
sector that to put a pin on those is important and i hope this is why i just
did the segue i hope that when i was in that position at packard had the chance
to be an interim at the climate works foundation and now here at heinz i hope
I hope I keep these in mind.
And the first tourism is that it is still remarkable that our collective theory
(15:12):
of change, sorry to use that phrase,
but our theory of how we're going to actually make the world a better place
is if they only knew what I know,
they would do the right thing. That's not good.
And that's been the same since the moment I started doing this work until this time.
And I succumb to it as much as anybody else in that. So, and then there are
(15:36):
sort of corollaries on top of that, which is, okay, if you don't support my
issue for my reasons, I'd actually rather lose than win.
And if you don't support my issue for my values, I'd really rather lose than win. Yeah.
And those things have held true again and again and again and again and again.
(15:56):
And so this is my pitch, which is I feel really fortunate that I've been able
to move from being communications into strategic responsibility for an organization.
But I think philanthropy and nonprofits are missing a massive untapped resource.
Communications people are phenomenal at this because they're tasked with doing
it. They are really good.
And our sector is still not getting broad leadership in this space.
(16:17):
So there's a plug for communications folks. folks, get out of your lane and
aspire to be on the program and
on the leadership side and to the folks responsible for those decisions.
Communications folks can at least bark up against what is just this ongoing
underlying set of assumptions that is doom and us each time. There's my riff on that.
(16:37):
It's a good riff. And I totally agree. And thank God the other side also does,
makes that same mistake.
They are shooting themselves in the eye, not the foot in many instances because
they would rather be right than to win.
And therefore, in a sense, it provides a competitive advantage for those who
really understand how do you win campaigns and how do you move issues.
(17:01):
We had an interesting conversation with Anat Shankarosorio.
Which I listened to and it was fabulous.
And you were right. And I'm looking forward to the intro to this one for you
to be even more over the top enthusiastic to introduce our conversation than
you were with hers you were quite the sales sales job on that one but carry on game on.
(17:22):
You just wait i bet you're sitting at home waiting for that intro i am i'm not
leaving the house until i hear the intro there was a point i was going to make
a long time ago but i've forgotten what it is oh yes right so you want to move
your base you want to give them the tools to be able to carry your message.
And then your base is basically 20%. And there's 20% of people wouldn't throw
(17:43):
water on you if you broke out into fire.
And that 60% in the middle are gainable on issues.
And they may not agree with you on certain things and they will agree with you on others.
And if you can gain, if you can access them on issues that they care about,
not issues that you care about, but the issue, then that's how you make change.
That's how you move things forward.
(18:05):
And I think it's that, I think it's both be able to create messages that other
people can carry the baton forward on that communications people have an important role.
But this understanding about the issues and winning on these issues,
this is where the a partnership between the comms people and the program people become so important.
And I think that's what we're kind of missing often or not. We're not,
(18:29):
we're not getting quite enough.
I think that's right. And that gets to, so if what I did was sort of the first
thing that has remained true all the way throughout my career around communications
and what communications get saddled with to your point, here's the second one,
which is I have this event,
this report, this study, this person.
Please make it the center of winning on the issue and
(18:52):
you're like how about let's figure out the
goal for the issue and then figure out the person the
report the study that should be featured but you don't get that as a comms person
as a comms person you get handed to you something well down the line and so
to your point that partnership also has to happen at the very beginning totally
on all of this in order to be able to make it go the right way so and i'm a
(19:14):
huge advocate of that too.
So this is good. My friends and colleagues here at the Heinz Endowments now
have two things to hold me supremely accountable for in everything I do here.
Well, it's also, with any luck at all, you get to signal to your staff and others.
And I really honestly believe that
now that you have achieved the sanctum sanctorum of the foundation CEOs,
(19:35):
that you can whisper in their ears and rub them, like rib them in the ribs to
help them better understand how to integrate communications into their work.
Because again, there are some foundations that are really great at strategic communications.
They understand what the goal is and that's the focus. And then there are others who are not.
And to the extent that you can continue to evangelize for that kind of integration.
(19:59):
That's going to do a huge thing for our field. Now we're going to take a very quick break.
Believe it or not, that was very fast, that went.
And we'll be right back with Chris Dicardi, the president of the Heinz Endowments, right after this.
You're listening to Let's Hear It, a podcast about foundation and nonprofit
communications hosted by Eric Brown and Kirk Kershaw.
(20:21):
If you're enjoying this episode, you may just be a rule breaker.
Tune in to Break Fake Rules, a new limited series podcast with Glenn Gallich,
CEO of the Stupsky Foundation.
Hear from leaders in philanthropy, nonprofits, government, media,
and more to learn about challenges they've overcome by breaking fake rules and
which rules we should commit to breaking together.
We are also sponsored by the Conrad Prebys Foundation.
(20:44):
Check out their amazingly good podcast. And we're not just saying that.
At Stop and Talk, hosted by Prebys Foundation CEO Grant Oliphant.
You can find them at stopandtalkpodcast.com.
And now, back to the show. And we are back with Chris Ducardi,
the president of the Heinz Endowments, and my very dear and old friend.
(21:05):
I have to say also, by the way, I'm just over the moon.
I'm tickled pink that you are now a grand,
high, exalted mystic poobah and once again
congratulations for folks who know you're like wow that
like there's a guy got that he he should be
doing this and and just from our conversation already you can kind of tell folks
(21:26):
that this is the kind of thinking that we need in philanthropy for sure so so
now let's let's talk about what it is like to to achieve this you know to become
the head of of a very large foundation.
Stupid question. Was it what you expected?
Yeah, 100%. That part- You knew it? It's not that I knew it.
(21:49):
This is how I'll answer the question, which is, I think for all of us in our
life, when we're considering taking on something different or new,
and you're having conversations with whoever you're going to be in a relationship
with, and then you say, okay, we're going to take the plunge.
And this was a decent-sized plunge. Our Our entire family had been in Silicon Valley for 20 years.
(22:09):
My sons were both born there. It only lived in one house that entire time, right?
That's a pretty big disruption that you're going through and asking your family to go through.
What you hope for when you then show up at the thing you committed to is that
the promise that you saw or the potential is actually there or expands.
(22:30):
And that the other stuff that you know that is there when you look under the
hood, because of course, everything has that, is sort of manageable.
And that's been absolutely the case. I've gotten here with this belief that
Pittsburgh is the center of the universe.
And I show up and I'm like, wow, there are incredible people,
incredible organizations, incredible history.
(22:51):
The role of philanthropy is not to create new stuff.
The role of philanthropy is to find all the amazing stuff that is already out
there and then use the privilege that we have because of of our position,
because of the connections we can make, because we have resources to be able to connect and amplify.
And so for me coming here and what this opportunity is, was only expanded,
(23:13):
which is really, really cool. You know, in terms of the job itself.
That part, it was fine and all good about putting this together.
I give an awful lot of credit to Carol Larson, who ran the Packard Foundation.
She believed in hiring great people and entrusting them to take leadership and a whole lot of stuff.
She gave me an incredible opportunity to work with the team there and with the
field. And then similarly, I was entrusted with the care and helping the Climate Works Foundation.
(23:37):
I think one of the most important collaborative hubs that exists right now,
given where we are with climate, in a leadership transition and had the chance
to do that there as well with an incredible board in both cases to help lead.
So I felt really well prepared to come into this moment and grateful for that.
That said, I'm sure there are things that you have learned now. Yeah, sure.
(23:58):
Can you give us a little sampling? sampling well
i'll say so it is all well and good and i really like
that podcast with a knot and that's the longest that i have heard her
talk about what she does in the build-up on george lay cough
which i like everybody else was enamored with
at that moment in time as well so super excited about all of that but it's it's
super easy to get hand wavy about oh we're gonna go paint that hopeful optimistic
(24:22):
vision of the future and you know you get the mission statement there and you
put it on NPR and every single foundation's statement is exactly like every other one on NPR.
That's all kind of the easy part.
So for me, I think the question is, well, what is the hard part and what do
we do to try to lean into that?
Now, there's a whole ton of hard parts in philanthropy and a lot of really good
(24:44):
stuff challenging philanthropy about our role.
Trust-based philanthropy off of the power that we have, what we are doing embedding
a series of historical inequities that we don't even see, all of that.
Okay. But building on top of it is, I think, a couple things that are really
important about getting to that future.
One is, and this goes back to communications, and it's just unfortunate,
(25:07):
but back in journalism school, if it bleeds, it leads. Right. Bad stuff...
Always leads. Mark Twain, the rumor gets the rot in the world before the fat
gets out of bed in the morning.
And so we've got this overabundance of deficit-based reporting and stories and
descriptions that hit the space of our brain.
(25:28):
And so I look at that and say, that's just a feature of the ecosystem.
Philanthropy is in the business of hope, number one.
And number two, one of the the unique things we have is we don't actually have
to raise money, sell anything, get reelected.
And so who but us to lean into that? Okay, yeah, that's fine.
But what are we going to support and who are we going to lift up and what are those vehicles?
(25:51):
Sure, it may be tilting at windmills, but we need to do more and more of that.
So positive frame, asset-based, solutions-focused. So that's thing one.
I don't know how to do that. And this region and the folks here are are buried
by that like everybody else is.
But I do have a couple hypotheses.
One of these is we do ourselves no favors by saying that the world is always
(26:16):
coming to an end when in fact it's not and it's getting better.
So you look at climate change now, which I spent my entire career working on.
I wrote a grad school thesis on the thing in 1992 and was working on it before
that. And it is just not true that we haven't made progress.
In fact, we are winning on climate change.
(26:38):
And the we is like society and the better of the world that we're going to move in.
There are only two problems. One is the goalpost keeps on moving because the
impacts are sliding closer and closer to us than a lot of folks imagined.
It's kind of the worst case scenario, and that scientists can tell you about that.
And the second one is because of that, we simply have to win faster,
but we are still winning.
(26:58):
20 years ago, the projections for what warming would look like were multiple
degrees higher than they are now.
Well, who knows that? Nobody. Because the people who actually should be celebrating it don't do it.
But why should we be celebrating it? We have to celebrate it because we actually
know how to get this done.
And there are phenomenal people that have actually succeeded in getting this
along the way. And it means we can go further.
(27:19):
So we have to make that happen. So that's an example. Here's another example.
This was a Nick Kristof column. And once a year, Nick Kristof in the Times essentially
says, I'm going to write you the optimistic column because I spend so much time
necessarily being pessimistic.
So he writes at the end of last year, and this blew me away.
But the lowest percentage of children in the world failing to get to or through
(27:43):
their teenage years in the history of the world was last year.
In the history of the world, we've got fewer kids not making it through than
ever in the history of the world. Well, who knows that?
Nobody? All right. So we've got a responsibility to build on those things.
And I think, again, there's a role for philanthropy to be able to make that happen.
(28:04):
And then I think the last thing I'll say on this is we also just don't know
the indicators that would tell us if we were getting to that hopeful,
optimistic future. Sure.
All the indicators we have look backwards and say what's happening right now,
and then what's lousy or all that kind of stuff in the trend line.
The only thing that supposedly tells us whether we're doing well are gross national
(28:26):
product, gross domestic product numbers.
And those have nothing to do with happiness and utility for human beings.
All the data says that got disconnected along about 1970.
So philanthropy, again, where are those indicators? What are we tracking?
And can we commit to those things so you could actually say,
hey, hey, we're making progress or not.
So you asked me, why is this so hard? Or what am I learning? Or what are we doing?
(28:48):
And I am super interested in those types of questions because philanthropy uniquely
can afford to take the risks on sorting those out.
So that would be one way of answering your question. Now you'd be like,
Chris, that's not the question I meant. I meant this one. No, that was good.
So given that you are at the center of the universe.
(29:11):
Yep. and you have a couple of billion dollars to use to advance these kinds of ideas.
And frankly, it being a regional foundation, you're extremely kind of relative
to the economy around you.
You have at least the spending power that you probably had at the Backard Foundation given the venue.
(29:33):
Fair enough. Yeah. Where are you going with this? How are you going to kind
of create that kind of leverage and move these kinds of issues?
How do you think about doing that in philanthropy? to be. I think you're exactly
right on what you just laid out.
I think one of the things that's exciting about Pittsburgh is the center of
the universe is that Pittsburgh actually used to be even more center of the
universe in the industrial age.
And there's a lot of latent commitment, talent, capacity, and resources.
(29:56):
And one of those is this philanthropic abundance that is here.
So I think one of the questions here that is the hardest thing in the world
is if there's is an organization that exists,
and in a trust-based philanthropy way, we should be listening,
understanding, general support grants over a number of years to help them achieve their mission.
(30:19):
And they need to go through transformation, just like this whole region in our
society needs to go through transformation.
How do you know in philanthropy if the dollars you are giving is helping that
nonprofit organization have the space to go through the transformation, transformation,
or are they buffering that organization from the market forces they would otherwise be receiving,
(30:41):
telling them to go through the transformation?
I think that's A, the one of most critical questions for philanthropy in this moment in time.
And now you got to do the wisdom to know the difference question.
And how are you going to get the wisdom to know the difference? It's people.
It's people and it's relationship. relationship and this is
my this is what i ask and people around here every moment is i as i go in and
(31:05):
i'm like here's what i'm committed to doing eric i am committed to earning your
trust so that you will at some point when you feel ready tell me the twenty
percent of the stuff in your head that is the important stuff for me to know.
But you're not going to go there yet until you believe I'm actually trustworthy
to utilize that in relationship with you.
(31:26):
I think about that in every single conversation I have with everybody here at
the endowments and in the region, because I believe that's probably the only
real answer to your question.
That's a pretty good one. Well, as we kind of wind down here,
just a couple other questions for you.
And I guess this one is a little existential, but having gotten to where you
(31:50):
are now and And really, I mean, it's a great achievement. It just is.
But if you knew back then when you were at Fenton or EMS or Packard along the
way, if you knew then what you now know,
because I do think that you have a very sensitive and thoughtful approach to this work,
obviously informed by many years, what would you have done differently?
(32:13):
You know, one thing, you and I are being of a certain age, you can always look
backwards and tell a more coherent story than was happening at the time,
right, in your journey. Everybody can do that in their life.
So anything I would have done differently, I actually am not somebody that spends
a lot of time looking at like regrets, or I wish I'd done that,
you know, exit A as opposed to exit B in this.
(32:38):
If I earlier on could have recognized that there are things that I am good at
and they have shadow sides, and if I could have been better about understanding
those shadow sides and being curious about them.
So I am good at talking. I'm good at explaining stuff. I am good at taking a
bunch of information and kind of putting it together in real time.
(32:59):
But you can mask a lot of problems with that. that.
One of the reasons, frankly, that I never became a journalist was recognizing that in myself.
And I got an award for a piece that I wrote for the Daily Cardinal,
shout out University of Wisconsin Journalism School and Daily Cardinal, fabulous.
(33:19):
Tons of us came through there and learned a lot. But I got an award for a piece
that I wrote, and it was about a music festival that was going on in Madison.
And I was supposed to go in and follow a couple of the headline acts and then
interview them and this kind of stuff.
And I didn't really have the courage to go in there and as an undergrad do that.
(33:39):
But I came across a busker on the street during that festival and I interviewed him.
And I loved the juxtaposition about his life. It was happening all the time
while this music festival was going on. I wrote this piece.
I wrote this award about there was award winning, right?
But I had to also be honest with myself that I didn't have have the courage
to ask the hard question.
I wrote around the holes in my reporting and I got lucky.
(34:05):
And I had to be honest with myself about that. And frankly, I'm glad I wasn't
a journalist because journalists at the moment of truth have to be jerks and
they have to be willing to be jerks.
And that's a little hard for me to be intentionally sometimes.
I'm unintentionally a jerk a bunch, I'm sure.
But at any rate, you asked me the question, what knowing then as opposed to
now? And I think it is the understanding and looking at the shadow sides that
(34:29):
I had. And then I suppose with a little compassion.
All right. Last question. How do you feel about the Pirates this year?
I knew you were going to get to that.
So when you just said you were so excited that I was here and that I moved to
Pittsburgh, it's because the one thing you think the Mets probably can do is
finish higher in the standings than the Pirates.
So I actually, PNC Park is fabulous. It's a jewel of the downtown Pittsburgh.
(34:53):
We have an incredible set of resources
to build on. We've got a cultural district right across the river.
Folks, come and visit. It is the center of the universe, and it's also really fun.
Seeing a Pirates game is great. You get to watch the pierogies racing around on the outfield fence.
You just can't not see that many wins. Well, but they at least have a young
team with some cool players that they decided to sign long-term and commit to.
(35:15):
And I think if you're a sports team, this is back to an old Seinfeld episode.
Basically, free agents come and go and ownership comes and goes.
You're basically just rooting for the laundry, right?
I think this is better than rooting for the laundered. And I will spare you
my diatribe against the Mets, which you have fully embodied anyway.
(35:36):
Well, you are the St.
Jude, the patron saint of lost
causes. You were the Orioles when they were terrible. Yes, absolutely.
And the A's. Absolutely right. Yes, I've picked centers of the universe,
D.C., Silicon Valley, and now Pittsburgh, which I fundamentally believe have
a baseball crisis associated with them.
(35:56):
Some professor can run the regression analysis about why that is.
Well, this has been such a fun conversation. It has been.
Thank you, Eric. For folks out there who are, for you foundation presidents
in the Sanctum Sanctorum,
I would hope you take Chris's advice and thoughts to heart about how to integrate
communications at the beginning and understand how issues move.
(36:20):
I know you do, but there are so many tools at your disposal and you,
Chris, have had this incredible communications career that you're turning into,
I think, the opportunity to really make huge change.
And as you say, and I'm now a convert, Pittsburgh is the center of the universe.
I can't think of anybody more adept at navigating that universe than you.
(36:43):
I just thank you, Chris, so much for talking with us. Thanks for what you're
doing. And you know, I'm a convert.
Well, I really appreciate it, Eric. And thank you. Thank you for the time. Give my best to Kirk.
You get all the glory on this podcast, but I know Kirk is coming next,
so I'm going to butter him up. So he's kind to me on this.
It's been great to be with you. Thank you. It's great to have you.
Chris DiCardi, president of the Heinz Endowments.
(37:08):
And we're back. So again, I'm going to say it again.
Nobody. Say it again. Nobody says it better. better. Nobody does it better than Chris Ducati.
You ask him why he's there. What is he doing? Pittsburgh is the center of the
universe. Here's why three steps. And you know what? He's absolutely right.
But you listen to that conversation of like, this is Jordan saying,
(37:28):
I'm going down the lane and I'm going to score the winning bucket.
This is just an all-time great.
It's so awesome. So how was it going to see Chris in Pittsburgh and seeing him
in his new surroundings?
The child of Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan. That's what he is. It's Chris Ducati.
That's right. That's right. It's a delight.
(37:49):
I had a chance to spend time with Chris recently, and it's so much fun to watch him in this element.
And what he's doing, yeah, I am sold that Pittsburgh is the center of the universe.
I mean, he makes a very good political case for why we have to understand and engage in.
And it's, you know, Pittsburgh, in a sense, is a proxy for a whole bunch of
(38:13):
transitioning, kind of politically transitioning regions, kind of purple places.
And it's it is quite true that we have huge communications challenges ahead
of us on things like what do jobs in the future look like and where are people
going to work and what kind of relationships are they going to have with their community?
(38:36):
And what effect does it have on the environment? What effect does it have on our quality of life?
Things like that. And that is front and center right now in Western Pennsylvania,
like it is in parts of Michigan, parts of Wisconsin.
Wisconsin, parts of Colorado, name your place where the old economies are giving
(38:56):
way to something that people don't fully trust yet and don't quite understand.
And our job is to build that trust and help promote that understanding.
And nobody knows this more than Chris.
Well, I can't imagine a better equipped, a better skilled, a better qualified
person to help facilitate that than Chris at the Heinz Endowment right now.
And so here he goes through his own trajectory, his own history of getting to where he's gotten.
(39:20):
You know, he starts with his journalism and communications, you know,
he's from the Midwest, by the way, start there.
He's already got lots of assets behind him. He's, he's, he's,
he's a Midwesterner and he goes to DC.
Works at Fenton, helps create the transcendent environmental media services,
which we can talk about a little bit, know that, know that, know that story
(39:41):
a little bit, but then moves on from there to the the foundation side and this
dynamic of harnessing all of this knowledge and expertise related to communications.
Now I'm going to jump into the foundation space, start on the comms desk.
Then I'm going to move to senior leadership.
The really talented people, they get promoted.
The highly mediocre stay in that job and then they become consultants.
(40:04):
Please continue. Here's my question though, because this is the trajectory I
wish that we saw more of in in philanthropic leadership coming out of this work,
this frontline work around communications.
And I keep, you know, I listened to somebody like Chris, and this is a question
I've had a few different times in this podcast.
Do you listen to Chris talk about this work? And I think, okay,
(40:25):
is there a system that we can replicate here?
Meaning that trajectory, that learning, that knowledge, that skillset that Chris
now brings to the work, or is this just Chris?
And it might just be Chris, you know, that ability to just bring these ideas together.
Other he's so clearly such a well-spoken can
take these issues and drill them down to their key element so
quickly but man i wish we had more people in philanthropic leadership on the
(40:48):
program side coming through this training ground this proving ground on the
communication side i feel like that's that's a process that could help achieve
this goal of trying to bring the comms piece further you know earlier into our
considerations when you think about strategy Yes.
And of course, the other famous ex-communications director is our pal Grant Oliphant.
(41:09):
Yes. Yes. But they're kind of few and far between.
If you look around at foundation leadership, not that many of them came out
of communications. Very, very few.
That's, it's an interesting, it's just an interesting phenomenon.
I think we absolutely put a premium on so-called program specific knowledge.
(41:30):
And then there's, you know, then there are the folks who are,
whatever they are, management consultants and that kind of thing.
I'm happy to see that more people are coming through activism,
people who are actually out there who did things.
And now those folks are becoming CEOs.
And that's a great development. But we need more of them, too,
(41:50):
because those folks understand communications as an integrated component into
that kind of work, into activism and rolling up your sleeves,
getting things done-ism.
So that you know it's true i would like to see better i won't call it better
but i would like to see more communications in leadership for sure well just
(42:11):
able to bring that sensibility forward you know i mean this this notion of a
hopeful optimistic economic vision for our future,
and that the highs and down ones are going to play a central role in advancing
that story in western pennsylvania that's going to have enormous positive implications
for so many things things we care about.
The big thing in that though, underneath that is that when we do that work,
(42:32):
we are part of your story. You're not part of ours.
We're trying to be part of your evolution, not trying to convince you of ours.
And I love that reflection you guys said.
Chris said, it's still amazing to me that our collective theory of change is
that they only do what I do. They do it the right thing.
And you better support these issues for my reasons, or I don't care. I'd rather lose.
(42:54):
Or if you don't support these issues because you share my values, I'd rather lose.
So I'm right, you're wrong. So that divide, crossing that divide and being like,
no, it's not us, it's them. There's no us in them.
Let's get aligned. We're not trying to convince you to join our club.
We're trying to understand where you're at.
Again, that just feels like a sensibility that Chris is just so deeply holds
and can show, can model for other foundations what that's going to look like,
(43:16):
regardless of the scale, regardless of the area where people are working.
We hear a lot about audience-centered design. And God bless the nice people
at the d.school at Stanford for coining a phrase about something that.
Good communications people have been doing for years is what does the audience care about?
And how do I create messages that speak to their values in ways that are consistent with my own goals?
(43:42):
They don't conflict with my goals, but they're consistent with them,
but it's about them, not us. And that is basically audience-centered design.
Good for them for helping to make people understand it in a different way.
But that is quite true. That is a communications mentality, which is who's my
audience and what do they care about? Now let's have a conversation.
(44:03):
Not who's my audience and how do I get them to put them in a headlock to make
them do the thing I want them to do, even though they don't care about it.
It doesn't tend to work so well.
Well, and it's this challenge of, it's a communications problem first,
even before you know what the problem is.
I love Chris's reflection, this thing about, I have this event report study
(44:23):
person, please make it the center of my campaign.
Chris is like, Like, why don't we think about the goal first?
I remember, you know, back in the day when EMS was turning into Environmental
Media Services West and then it became, you know, what we named it, Resource Media.
Yeah, you ran. So here's where the roads converge.
And Chris was my first meeting when I first took that job to help run what was
(44:46):
that, Environmental Media Services West.
But the big refrain back then, people were calling a week before the press release was due.
And a week wasn't a long enough to create a good press release.
We wanted to be called two weeks before the, before the press releases do.
And I remember having the first meeting with the entire staff team,
which is really then just a random collection of consultants. And I do think.
(45:08):
You know, there's a, there's a hidden story here around all this stuff,
which we won't talk about today, but none of this works if you can't get hired,
you know, so you can be as lofty and as loud, you know, auditory around all
this stuff that you want, but you've got to figure out ways to get this into the ecosystem.
But, you know, we had this conversation and I, and I said to this team,
you know, we've got to be upstream.
We've got to be right on day one. We have to be part of the conversation just
(45:28):
as it's getting started.
Nobody in the room knew what that meant because it's so hard to bridge that
conversation when when things are so vague and so uncertain.
So again, I think back to a Krista Cardi and think about his capacity to bring
people together and facilitate those conversations way up front.
It almost seems like part of this leadership role we need is the ability to
(45:52):
facilitate and mediate and moderate those kinds of conversations,
you know, just so that people can get aligned before you kind of even know what
the, what is of these campaigns.
Well, I've always said that communications is not an activity. It's a mindset.
Yeah. And that a program officer or a CEO or anyone will say,
well, what is it I'm trying to achieve and how does communications help move towards that?
(46:15):
How do I use communications to do that? You have to have a communications mindset
in order to be able to ask that question,
not just I'm going to do a whole bunch of stuff and I want you to promote it
as if that's going to magically make anything happen at all.
So that I've always said that if an organization has a communications mindset,
(46:35):
it doesn't matter whether you have two or 20 communications people there,
you're going to succeed because you're going to understand how things how things
move and how many times, you know, we all have our own values.
We have all of our own goals that we pursue.
As just individuals that we care about. And people don't have a lot of time
and energy to take on somebody else's hobby horse.
(46:58):
It's our own thing. And so the trick is, how do we marshal all of this energy.
That overlaps and use that overlap to move something forward?
That's how you build like real cool coalitions, partnerships and all that stuff.
Well, I'll continue making the pitch that these foundations
(47:19):
consider should consider themselves to be media and
communications enterprises first and everything else
second and i love that chris is
taking on the podcast at the heisen downwards and and i and i actually love
that this is a new thing he gets to do it's a new skill set he gets to hone
but he's also there he's like yeah actually i get it like you know it's been
(47:40):
interesting seeing this proliferation of this media but every institution institution
practically now could use something like this,
which is a direct voice we create and cultivate so that we're actually putting
a spotlight on and sharing the stories about the things that we care about most.
We're not trying to have millions of listeners.
Maybe that'll happen. I wouldn't put it past Chris to actually create that outcome.
But for the people who do listen, this is going to be important.
(48:02):
It's going to be consequential. So how do you think Chris is going to do as a podcast host?
Because I think this is like, man, this is like going to be his next career
after the Heisendom. He's going to be a celebrity.
Well, I would say that it's a very difficult skill to be a good podcaster,
to be a good interviewer.
You have to be so tuned in and perceptive and you have to be able to stir,
(48:27):
steer and otherwise going to rotate your conversation. No, he'll do great.
He's got the kind of curiosity and the kind of enthusiasm that I think it takes
to make these things work. I will take issue with the fact that I don't,
with your contention that foundations should be media entities.
I happen to agree with that. I think that sometimes it might be useful.
(48:49):
It worked for the Kaiser Family Foundation, which literally started its own media operation.
But some foundations don't need that at all. They need to understand how communications
moves and fund those things that will get them there.
And it may be them, it may not be them. Some foundations sometimes are not great
messengers for certain things.
The people who are doing this, the so-called actual real people doing real work,
(49:12):
those are often a better messenger.
So I take minor issue. But I do think that understanding how communications
drives issues, drives change, that you have to have from the get-go or else you're just guessing.
Well it's funny and fair enough because we heard recently that
you know sometimes it's important for foundations to like pay for
(49:33):
the child care and pay for the transportation so there's a lot of stuff that foundations
can leverage the dollars to support so that's a fair point i will say though
there was an aside chris had just a little aside that was a little chilling
for me this is conspiracy kirk enters the room it's one of my favorite kirks
is conspiracy kirk it's an important such an important point though i completely
(49:53):
and i share the sensibility because Because Chris was like,
you know, I know the strategic questions related to communications,
and those remain the same.
Then he started talking about some of the truisms that have been with us for all these years.
But on tactics, because of how the communications landscape has changed,
on tactics, Chris said he's useless. I would probably...
Debate that. I'm sure he's not useless, but there's something important in there,
(50:15):
which is, I think it's possible that none of us, not one person in the entire communications field,
progressive communications field actually understands how tactical delivery
of communications is actually working in today's social media ecosystem,
that we understand parts of it, but the social media enterprises are such black
(50:38):
boxes of what's going in and what's coming out.
That we cannot actually know. And so this piece where Chris is feeling,
yeah, I don't get the tactics.
I actually think in a weird way, we all are probably vulnerable to that in some respect.
And that actually tips me over to, again, the importance of the work that Chris
is doing because Chris is in the field now in places that most of us will never
(51:02):
go to, never think about, and most philanthropic dollars will never reach.
And we wonder what's happening in those places and how are people's opinions and views being shaped?
And then why do they act or behave certain ways? Well, in my experience is one
of the reasons things go the way they go is because those areas are being utterly ignored.
Even though we talk about it, there's so few people that are actually showing up.
To do that hard spade work. But what do you think about that?
(51:24):
I mean, I think this notion that we kind of don't get our, you know,
it's not, it's not, we got page one above the fold on the New York Times anymore.
And we know that's going to have a certain, you know, number of points in the
whole, it's a totally different consideration now.
Yeah. Some geek in his grandmother's basement just changed the algorithm by
one word that caused us to succeed instead of fail.
(51:46):
That's interesting. And by the way, that little aluminum foil hat looks lovely
on you. Well, and hopefully this
is because hopefully it's a geek in the grandmother's basement, right?
Hopefully it's not one million bots, right? Exactly.
It's not some auto system running. And what we're calling the social media conversation
is actually a completely manufactured creation that we don't even know where
(52:09):
it's coming from, where it's going,
except that it's affecting people in their lives in terms of how they view the world.
We have no idea to what extent that's shaping opinion in key parts of the country,
including Western Pennsylvania.
At least that's what I think. What do you think about that? Thank you for ruining my day.
Thanks for that. I was having a perfectly good day, and now you've dropped a bomb on me.
(52:32):
Hey, so I will say you are getting good at this interview thing.
You're getting good at this.
Here's my question for you. You're getting good at it. It's only taken six years,
but you're getting really good at it.
How was it interviewing a dear friend? And did you, how'd you prep for that?
Like, did you have to come in with questions?
Did you just, you know, did you just, you know, how was that?
Cause you actually got, you covered some really good ground that I do want to
(52:53):
talk about what Chris had to say about kind of the, the balance of messaging
and, you know, the, the negative versus positive vision we're trying to create.
But how was it talking to Chris like that?
Well, I mean, the only thing I can say is that you have to make sure that you
talk about something substantive and not just talk smack about whatever your
fantasy baseball team or something like that. So in that sense,
(53:14):
I was trying to keep it professional.
But it's always great to interview somebody,
whom you know well, because you can cut to the chase. There's no,
you know, he talked about this notion of trust.
And when you, and I think that we all have these colleagues in our fields whom
we trust implicitly and to whom we can say anything, any stupid idea and not feel bad about it.
(53:40):
And I think that building those kinds of relationships are essential.
I think also that Zoom and the pandemic and
this dislocation and disconnection that
many people feel are are making that more problematic
but because we go back so far i i
can tell them anything and i can tell them that's a stupid idea i can tell them
(54:01):
that's a great idea and if i say it's a great idea he actually knows that i
think it's a great idea instead of i'm the president of the heinz endowment
everybody's gonna they're gonna tell me i'm fabulous and so in that sense having
surrounding yourself with people who will actually actually tell you you stink.
Is good.
It's lucky. And I strive to have those people in my life as well.
(54:22):
Not because people tell me I'm smart or good or anything, because I don't work
for a foundation anymore.
I got stupider, by the way, when I left the Hewlett Foundation.
But there were a bunch of people who could tell me I was stupid and I believed them.
And then if they told me that I was smart, then I really believed them because
no one would tell me that.
So, but Chris's reflection at the end.
(54:46):
He's so committed to building these trusting relationships so that people will tell him what's true.
And I can't imagine a better person equipped to actually build relationships like that.
And how smart, how savvy it is to be thoughtful in that way to say my role here,
first and foremost, is to build trust.
And I do think that's an interesting challenge he's reflecting on,
you know, as philanthropy provides dollars to help organizations grow and evolve
(55:10):
and provide general operating support over multiple years.
Are we helping organizations transform in the ways they need to because they're
remaining sensitive and responsive to circumstances as they evolve in front of them?
Or are we actually inoculating them to a certain extent from their need to change?
What a challenging thing to sort out.
And again, the depth and breadth of experience that Chris brings,
his integrity, his authenticity, but his ability to actually develop these real
(55:34):
relationships with people, I feel like is going to be an incredible asset to
him as he tries to sort out key questions like that.
Yeah, that's right. Right. You just have to have a pretty good BS meter and
you have to be kind of humble because I imagine that it must be a little tricky
when everyone is telling you you're so fabulous.
As I said this a million times, Paul Brass, president of the Hewlett Foundation,
when I got there, had this little plaque on his desk that said,
(55:55):
with money in your pocket, you're handsome, you're funny, and you sing well, too.
And Paul always had that sense of reality that people were going to say he was those things.
And he was. No, but it was.
And yeah, like I say, Chris, I think has the right temperament for this kind of job.
(56:16):
And and of course, he's smart and he's a great communicator.
Yeah, he's I've and he follows in the the excellent footsteps of Grant Oliphant,
who who helped build Heinz into a regional force in so many ways and helped
develop a lot of really, really great grant making over there.
So it's kind of like the best of all worlds, if you ask me.
(56:39):
Well, and I can't wait to see him, we'll leave on this, but I can't wait to
see him attack this issue he's talking about around communications and storytelling
and how we have such an overabundance of deficit-based stories.
The bad stuff always leads, it leads, it leads.
And philanthropy being in the business of hope, how do we reorient our communications
to this positive frame, this solutions-focused, asset-based communications framework? and work.
(57:04):
And it's interesting in places like Western Pennsylvania, as much as it's true,
there are so many areas where we've made progress. There's so many places we're making great strides.
These communities are also under enormous stress and strain.
They're losing local newspaper outlets. They're losing local healthcare.
They're kind of being drained of their vitality in so many ways.
(57:25):
And for a hopeful, optimistic, partnership-based entity to come forward like
the the Heinz endowments and say, we care about you.
We're going to focus on you. We're going to lift you up, tell us how we can
help and turn those stories into place-based stories of hope and optimism.
That's going to be transformational work. And so, you know, so again,
I mean, back to Chris's first point, he stands at the center of the universe
(57:46):
and I can't imagine a better person to actually be standing right at the center
there with all of his partners, all of his colleagues, the board,
the trustees, but he is putting his hand up to say, I want to be part of something
that's really important,
but also incredibly difficult to work ahead for Chris in the Heinz Endowment. Incredibly difficult.
Well, if it was easy, anyone could do it. And by the way, Kirk,
I have to say that you have become quite the excellent play-by-play man.
(58:07):
What are you saying? What are you talking about? If I do the color commentary,
you're an excellent play-by-play. You're helping make sense of things.
You really listen to the interviews.
You pull out the best bits of it. Well done, sir.
This is what we need. We need a podcast so we can talk about why these people
are great. It'll never work.
Chris Ducardi is great. Chris Ducardi is great. He deserves to hear that.
(58:30):
He deserves to be recognized.
He deserves to be acknowledged. We need the field that could put a positive
spotlight on ourselves and say, thank you and congratulations.
So yes, thank you. I'll take it. I'll take it.
All right. Chris, you're great. I'm going to send you a small packet of Thorazine.
There you go. Well, Chris Ducati, president of the Heinz Endowments.
(58:52):
My goodness, Chris, thank you for joining us on Let's Hear It.
Thank you for all the work you've done. There are billions of people who will
never beat you that can say thank you for standing up Climate Works,
not to mention all the other work you did at the Packard Foundation.
You touched millions and millions of people in a positive way,
and you'll never say it or cop to it because you're a modest Midwestern nerd,
but my goodness, Chris. And Eric, what a conversation. That was awesome.
(59:13):
Well, that was really fun. And yeah, I just, I really cherish Chris.
If it weren't for him, I probably wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.
For that, I am deeply grateful, but I'm also grateful the work that he is doing
and the work that he will do.
Awesome. Well, thank you, Eric. Thank you, Chris. And thank you all for listening.
We'll see you next time on Let's Hear It.
Okay, everybody, that's it for this episode. Please let us know if you have
(59:36):
any thoughts about what you heard today or people we should have on this show.
And that definitely includes yourself. And we'd like to thank our indefatigable
producer, Harper Brown.
John Ali, the tuneful and inspiring composer of our theme music.
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation.
And please check out Lumina's terrific podcast, Today's Students, Tomorrow's Talent.
(59:57):
And you can find that at luminafoundation.org. We certainly thank today's guest
and, of course, all of you.
And most importantly, thank you, Mr. Brown.
Oh, no, no, no, no. Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Music.
Music.
(00:13):
Kirk. And I'm Eric. The podcast is sponsored by the College Futures Foundation,
which envisions a California where post-secondary education advances equity
and unlocks upward mobility now and for generations to come.
To learn more, visit collegefutures.org.
You can find Let's Hear It on any podcast subscription platform.
Music.
You can find us online at letshearitcast.com. You can find us on LinkedIn and, yes, even on Instagram.
(00:40):
And if you like the show, please, please, please rate us on Apple Podcasts so
that more people can find us. So let's get on to the show.
And we're back. Welcome in. It's another edition of Let's Hear It.
We're so glad you found us, so glad to have you here.
And Mr. Brown, so excited for this conversation we're about to hear,
(01:02):
this conversation that's ahead.
I feel like we should be at the bar and we should just scream,
Chris, and welcome him through the door.
Talk about what we're about to listen to. This is This is awesome. This is awesome.
Kirk, you really need to pep up.
I can't help it. This is like, this conversation is like watching Babe Ruth
(01:22):
step up to the plate, point to the
outfield, and said four runs across the plate. This is an all-time pro.
Go ahead. Set it up. This is awesome. Great.
This is the best. This is the best. This is the best. This is great.
I think you need more caffeine. You're a little low. You're a little low energy.
You're a little Jeb Bushy.
(01:43):
I finally had the opportunity to interview my pal, Chris Ducati,
whom I've known for a very, very long time.
And he is now the president of the Heinz Endowments in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
He was the vice president at the David and Lucille Packard Foundation for quite
(02:03):
some time. He was my counterpart at Packard when I was head of comms at Hewlett.
He helped me get my job at Hewlett. I tithe him.
I just write a 10% check of anything that comes in to Chris because he is single-handedly
responsible for my career.
And what a delight it was to have this conversation with him as the Grand High
(02:24):
Exalted Mystic Poobah of Pittsburgh.
Yeah. And what a role, what an important role as president of the Heinz Endowments.
And the personal relationship between you and Chris should not dampen the understanding
of the significance of the roles that Chris has held over his tenure, his career.
You mean the fact that he knows me shouldn't diminish his stature?
(02:47):
Yeah, he's punching down.
He's punching down a little bit of this conversation.
But being the first communications person at the Packard Foundation and then
being in a senior leadership role at the Packard Foundation and then helping
launch Climate Works and then helping facilitate leadership transition for Climate
Works, this is some of the most important philanthropy,
some of the most important initiatives in the history of the world.
(03:09):
And now Chris being in Pittsburgh at the Heinz Foundation, oh my goodness,
what a gift to them, but also what a gift to us that we get to listen to this
conversation and what generosity.
And of course, Chris succeeded. He's a pro. He butters up the co-host at the end of your interview.
He knows. He's smart because he really knows where the power lies here.
He knows how to play this. So let's listen.
(03:30):
This is an extraordinary conversation
between Chris DiCardia of the Heinz Endowments on Let's Hear It.
Welcome to Let's Hear It. But folks, you know, in sitcoms, they say there's
a very special episode of Facts of Life or something like this.
Well, folks, this is an extremely very special episode of Let's Hear It.
(03:50):
My guest today is Chris Ducardi.
Yep, Chris Ducardi, the president of the Heinz Endowments and a former super
duper wiggly worm like many of us who has made good.
The kid made good. But Chris, I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to have this conversation.
I am really glad to be here. I can't tell you how terrified I am about how this
(04:14):
conversation is going to go, having known you for way longer than either one
of us wants to care to admit.
So it's good to be here. That's right. We have fulsome heads of hair.
Thank you for being willing to subject yourself to this conversation.
By all means. And look, congratulations. What you and Kirk have done here is fabulous.
Fabulous you've got something that's valuable that is
(04:37):
connecting communications and philanthropy in the non-profit world in
a unique and important way so congratulations to you for
what you've done for a number of years it's really important it's cool thank you
you're hired good i get i get to stay well actually i i am remiss to not say
that you are now soon to be the host of your own podcast we can be following
(04:57):
in the footsteps or maybe cleaning up the mess of your predecessor predecessor,
Grant Oliphant, whose podcast,
you know, it was great.
But how do you feel about that before we even get into any of this stuff?
How do you feel about being your own podcaster in addition to running a many
billion dollar foundation?
Yeah, I'm excited. I've never done this before. I think what you and many others
(05:19):
are proving is that there is a role and an important.
Place for podcasts in the ecosystem of delivering important messages to key
audiences in this. And there are a lot of podcasts out there that are terrible, are awful.
You and I have known Grant, and so we can poke fun, or you can poke fun.
I'm not. Oh, you're not allowed to poke fun at him yet? No, I'm completely allowed to poke fun at him.
But I won't in this instance, because I think the podcast and what they built
(05:41):
here is a really interesting tool.
And the people they featured are critical for the future of the world,
for what they're doing here in Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania.
So it's fun for me to enter in and to learn about this from a team that we have here.
And they'll have to put up with me as I'm new at doing this.
So my entire reason for joining you, Eric, is so that I could watch and learn
from you in real time and then mimic what I do next.
(06:04):
All right. I'm going to take that with a block of salt, but thank you. Fair enough.
All right, Chris, for folks who don't know you, and maybe there are some,
let's just get into your little background.
How did you end up in your August role as president of the Heinz Endowments?
It's the who am I and why am I here question. James Stockdale question.
That's right. It didn't work for him, but I'm sure it will for you.
(06:26):
No, and the reason it didn't work for him, and for those of you under the age
of 50, go look it up because it's actually a pretty remarkable clip,
is that he was so good in setting up the question,
who am I and why am I here, that everybody was convinced he had no idea what the answer is.
And of course, when it's self-referential like that, that's not a good good place to be.
(06:48):
And to save people the Google search, James Stockdale was Ross Perot's running mate in 1980.
92. Sorry, say yeah, 92. And of course, that didn't go well for him.
Yeah. So, all right, who am I and why I'm here? Well, I'll give you the why I'm here first.
Pittsburgh is the center of the universe and that's why I'm here.
(07:09):
So now, I completely understand that. My goal in my tenure here is that when
I say Pittsburgh is the center of the the universe, nobody's going to laugh.
They're going to say, well, yeah, I completely get it. And so why is Pittsburgh
the center of the universe?
I'm going to give you the three-step process. And in true debate fashion,
you can tell me if any one of my priors is false.
So step number one is we are in this massive transformation as a nation.
(07:33):
Your podcast touches on it all the time. We're moving from the industrial to post-industrial age.
We're in this really uncomfortable spot, all sorts of division,
all sorts of othering. What do you do? you get scared, you turn inward,
you look to nostalgia, all that kind of stuff, right?
And it's not entirely clear we're going to get through to the other side.
I think philanthropy has the business of getting through to the other side.
We can talk more about that, but that's prior one. That's what we're into as a world.
(07:55):
And the world hasn't figured out how to get to the other side.
So if the world is going to get to the other side, the United States of America
is going to have to get to the other side. If we don't, the world's going down.
And if the United States of America is going to get to the other side,
Pennsylvania is going to have to get the other side because about the next three
election cycles, it is going to be a crucial, critical swing state.
And if Pennsylvania is going to get there, Western Pennsylvania is going to
have to lead because of the history, because of the unique role we play. So.
(08:20):
By that logic, Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania is the center of the universe.
And if we can play our part at the Heinz Endowments in working with the incredible
people in this region toward that hopeful, inclusive, optimistic future where
everybody sees themselves economically and culturally,
then we will have played an incredible part of bending the light in the universe
(08:42):
toward the future we want for our kids. So that's why I'm here.
How did I get in? You asked the question. Let me interrupt you for a second. Damn.
You're right. Yeah. Good. Now continue. Good. All right, good.
So convinced once. So now when I say I'm here because Pittsburgh and Windsor,
Pennsylvania is the center of the universe, you completely get it.
And you're like, oh yeah, I know exactly why.
(09:03):
And my goal is to make sure that more and more people understand why and that
we get through. And I'm super excited to play my part in that.
So how did I get here? And you referenced me as the wiggly worm.
And I think the wiggly worm is some reference to us plush schlubs who came from
communications and issue communications and strategic communications and efforts
trying to convince audiences that don't want to be convinced about things that
(09:23):
we care about in the world and that history. That is my history.
So, you know, the resume is grew up in the Midwest, journalism undergrad,
go off to the Peace Corps to try to figure stuff out, come back.
And I moved to what was my center of the universe then, which was Washington, DC.
And I moved there because I was committed that journalism communications could change the world.
Cause I grew up with Woodward in Bernstein and Watergate, and they did it.
(09:47):
And I grew up with Uncle Walter on CBS Evening News telling me that's the way
it is. And I believed that too.
And so I wanted to go to DC and figure that all out.
And I ended up not being a journalist. You stumble into things in life.
I was very fortunate that I got a chance to work as an entry-level peon at a
socially progressive PR firm
(10:07):
called Fenton Communications that did extraordinary work then, still does.
You were an intern at Fenton? So, no, I was a paid, what's the lowest, a centipede?
What's the lowest wiggly worm on your, we're going to have to go to biology
on this. Aramecium? I don't know.
Yeah, something like that. And then in life, you know, you get exposed to a
(10:29):
bunch of stuff, you get to learn a ton of stuff. And I did.
And I was like, wow, it's just fascinating. You can actually help organize people
and ideas to try to pressure a political system for social change.
And I just got the bug. Yeah.
I go to grad school, and then I help come back and launch something that was
really cool, which was environmental media services.
And that model, it's now resource media, which is, again, this fabulous organization
(10:52):
that's gone far, farther than those of us that there at the beginning ever imagined.
But the model was a great model because it said rather than it paid to then
say this issue or this report or this person needs to get a lot of attention,
you actually went to the comms folks and you said, actually,
this issue needs to change in
this way. Now, how are you going to build campaigns to make that happen?
(11:14):
I mean, we can talk a lot more about that, but that model in that way is incredibly
freeing and gave us a chance to do some really powerful and good stuff when we did it well.
And when we screwed it up, we screwed it up royally all the time for all the
reasons all organizations screw it up. But that involved raising money from foundations.
One of our foundations was the David and Lucille Packard Foundation.
And at a certain point, they approached and said, hey, we want to build out
(11:34):
a communications function that actually takes some of that magic around issues
as the priority about what and how we do our work integrated with our programs.
And it was an empty lot. The communications function at the Packard Foundation
at the time didn't exist, right? Yeah, pretty much. That's right.
It was an annual report and a couple of responsive things.
And we should have a website, but it was one of those early rudimentary websites,
(11:54):
which was fabulous. So right, you know, deep commitment.
The president who had been there for just a few years was Dick Schlossberg,
who had been the former publisher of the LA Times and ended up being a mentor
of mine that I respected in so many ways.
But his belief in the power of communications was there from the beginning and
how to put that together. So I had a chance to join an incredible organization
(12:15):
with an incredible team inside of philanthropy and over 18 years there,
had the chance to be able to take on more responsibility.
And in that transition, ended up being the vice president and director of programs
across all of our grant making.
So, partially, you're talking about sort of that evolution in a career that
starts out very much communications-focused, audience-focused,
(12:36):
moves towards issues, out of issues, says, well, how do we build these campaigns
with all these components, working in an organization that really wanted to make that happen?
And the opportunity to then lead on all of those components was a real gift,
and it was fortunate that I could be there. And when you got kicked upstairs,
how did you feel about, did your relationship to the communications work change at all?
(12:56):
Did you have a, given that it wasn't your primary responsibility,
but you had oversight on it, did that affect your perspective on how the foundation
could and should use communications?
That's a really good question. I've never really thought about it that way.
So this is a just off the cuff on it.
One thing is that I feel for the communications directors who are fabulous that
(13:19):
followed me because the last thing you want is your boss that actually thinks
they know how to do your job when you're better at it than they are.
So, and they did a really nice job.
And Felicia Madsen, who is still there now and is fantastic.
Was wonderful about putting up with me and getting the best out of me.
But broadening out your question on that, I will honestly say no, it really didn't.
(13:43):
Because my belief was that the communications function needed to continually
be better integrated in the upfront so we could have greater impact.
And that stayed top of mind. I suppose when you're in a role where you're also
looking across the entire institution,
rather than looking for the piece that you are most responsible for,
(14:05):
I suppose I started to see things a little bit more in gray than in black and
white, but fundamentally it stayed the same.
If I could digress for a minute. Please digress.
This is your show. It's kind of you. It's your show.
I'm just visiting. I'm just, I'm just the, I tee it up and you get to spike it.
So it's going from doing the communications piece to then being responsible
(14:26):
for integrating it and hopefully helping it be better on behalf of the entire
institution, its mission.
I was actually reflecting on
this, which is I know so little about the tactics of communications now.
I mean, social media came after I started doing this work.
And so i do believe that a lot of the strategic questions
are exactly the same ones but tactically i'm useless
to everybody in this except i think there are
(14:47):
a couple truisms that are still so prevalent in the philanthropic and non-profit
sector that to put a pin on those is important and i hope this is why i just
did the segue i hope that when i was in that position at packard had the chance
to be an interim at the climate works foundation and now here at heinz i hope
I hope I keep these in mind.
And the first tourism is that it is still remarkable that our collective theory
(15:12):
of change, sorry to use that phrase,
but our theory of how we're going to actually make the world a better place
is if they only knew what I know,
they would do the right thing. That's not good.
And that's been the same since the moment I started doing this work until this time.
And I succumb to it as much as anybody else in that. So, and then there are
(15:36):
sort of corollaries on top of that, which is, okay, if you don't support my
issue for my reasons, I'd actually rather lose than win.
And if you don't support my issue for my values, I'd really rather lose than win. Yeah.
And those things have held true again and again and again and again and again.
(15:56):
And so this is my pitch, which is I feel really fortunate that I've been able
to move from being communications into strategic responsibility for an organization.
But I think philanthropy and nonprofits are missing a massive untapped resource.
Communications people are phenomenal at this because they're tasked with doing
it. They are really good.
And our sector is still not getting broad leadership in this space.
(16:17):
So there's a plug for communications folks. folks, get out of your lane and
aspire to be on the program and
on the leadership side and to the folks responsible for those decisions.
Communications folks can at least bark up against what is just this ongoing
underlying set of assumptions that is doom and us each time. There's my riff on that.
(16:37):
It's a good riff. And I totally agree. And thank God the other side also does,
makes that same mistake.
They are shooting themselves in the eye, not the foot in many instances because
they would rather be right than to win.
And therefore, in a sense, it provides a competitive advantage for those who
really understand how do you win campaigns and how do you move issues.
(17:01):
We had an interesting conversation with Anat Shankarosorio.
Which I listened to and it was fabulous.
And you were right. And I'm looking forward to the intro to this one for you
to be even more over the top enthusiastic to introduce our conversation than
you were with hers you were quite the sales sales job on that one but carry on game on.
(17:22):
You just wait i bet you're sitting at home waiting for that intro i am i'm not
leaving the house until i hear the intro there was a point i was going to make
a long time ago but i've forgotten what it is oh yes right so you want to move
your base you want to give them the tools to be able to carry your message.
And then your base is basically 20%. And there's 20% of people wouldn't throw
(17:43):
water on you if you broke out into fire.
And that 60% in the middle are gainable on issues.
And they may not agree with you on certain things and they will agree with you on others.
And if you can gain, if you can access them on issues that they care about,
not issues that you care about, but the issue, then that's how you make change.
That's how you move things forward.
(18:05):
And I think it's that, I think it's both be able to create messages that other
people can carry the baton forward on that communications people have an important role.
But this understanding about the issues and winning on these issues,
this is where the a partnership between the comms people and the program people become so important.
And I think that's what we're kind of missing often or not. We're not,
(18:29):
we're not getting quite enough.
I think that's right. And that gets to, so if what I did was sort of the first
thing that has remained true all the way throughout my career around communications
and what communications get saddled with to your point, here's the second one,
which is I have this event,
this report, this study, this person.
Please make it the center of winning on the issue and
(18:52):
you're like how about let's figure out the
goal for the issue and then figure out the person the
report the study that should be featured but you don't get that as a comms person
as a comms person you get handed to you something well down the line and so
to your point that partnership also has to happen at the very beginning totally
on all of this in order to be able to make it go the right way so and i'm a
(19:14):
huge advocate of that too.
So this is good. My friends and colleagues here at the Heinz Endowments now
have two things to hold me supremely accountable for in everything I do here.
Well, it's also, with any luck at all, you get to signal to your staff and others.
And I really honestly believe that
now that you have achieved the sanctum sanctorum of the foundation CEOs,
(19:35):
that you can whisper in their ears and rub them, like rib them in the ribs to
help them better understand how to integrate communications into their work.
Because again, there are some foundations that are really great at strategic communications.
They understand what the goal is and that's the focus. And then there are others who are not.
And to the extent that you can continue to evangelize for that kind of integration.
(19:59):
That's going to do a huge thing for our field. Now we're going to take a very quick break.
Believe it or not, that was very fast, that went.
And we'll be right back with Chris Dicardi, the president of the Heinz Endowments, right after this.
You're listening to Let's Hear It, a podcast about foundation and nonprofit
communications hosted by Eric Brown and Kirk Kershaw.
(20:21):
If you're enjoying this episode, you may just be a rule breaker.
Tune in to Break Fake Rules, a new limited series podcast with Glenn Gallich,
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Hear from leaders in philanthropy, nonprofits, government, media,
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We are also sponsored by the Conrad Prebys Foundation.
(20:44):
Check out their amazingly good podcast. And we're not just saying that.
At Stop and Talk, hosted by Prebys Foundation CEO Grant Oliphant.
You can find them at stopandtalkpodcast.com.
And now, back to the show. And we are back with Chris Ducardi,
the president of the Heinz Endowments, and my very dear and old friend.
(21:05):
I have to say also, by the way, I'm just over the moon.
I'm tickled pink that you are now a grand,
high, exalted mystic poobah and once again
congratulations for folks who know you're like wow that
like there's a guy got that he he should be
doing this and and just from our conversation already you can kind of tell folks
(21:26):
that this is the kind of thinking that we need in philanthropy for sure so so
now let's let's talk about what it is like to to achieve this you know to become
the head of of a very large foundation.
Stupid question. Was it what you expected?
Yeah, 100%. That part- You knew it? It's not that I knew it.
(21:49):
This is how I'll answer the question, which is, I think for all of us in our
life, when we're considering taking on something different or new,
and you're having conversations with whoever you're going to be in a relationship
with, and then you say, okay, we're going to take the plunge.
And this was a decent-sized plunge. Our Our entire family had been in Silicon Valley for 20 years.
(22:09):
My sons were both born there. It only lived in one house that entire time, right?
That's a pretty big disruption that you're going through and asking your family to go through.
What you hope for when you then show up at the thing you committed to is that
the promise that you saw or the potential is actually there or expands.
(22:30):
And that the other stuff that you know that is there when you look under the
hood, because of course, everything has that, is sort of manageable.
And that's been absolutely the case. I've gotten here with this belief that
Pittsburgh is the center of the universe.
And I show up and I'm like, wow, there are incredible people,
incredible organizations, incredible history.
(22:51):
The role of philanthropy is not to create new stuff.
The role of philanthropy is to find all the amazing stuff that is already out
there and then use the privilege that we have because of of our position,
because of the connections we can make, because we have resources to be able to connect and amplify.
And so for me coming here and what this opportunity is, was only expanded,
(23:13):
which is really, really cool. You know, in terms of the job itself.
That part, it was fine and all good about putting this together.
I give an awful lot of credit to Carol Larson, who ran the Packard Foundation.
She believed in hiring great people and entrusting them to take leadership and a whole lot of stuff.
She gave me an incredible opportunity to work with the team there and with the
field. And then similarly, I was entrusted with the care and helping the Climate Works Foundation.
(23:37):
I think one of the most important collaborative hubs that exists right now,
given where we are with climate, in a leadership transition and had the chance
to do that there as well with an incredible board in both cases to help lead.
So I felt really well prepared to come into this moment and grateful for that.
That said, I'm sure there are things that you have learned now. Yeah, sure.
(23:58):
Can you give us a little sampling? sampling well
i'll say so it is all well and good and i really like
that podcast with a knot and that's the longest that i have heard her
talk about what she does in the build-up on george lay cough
which i like everybody else was enamored with
at that moment in time as well so super excited about all of that but it's it's
super easy to get hand wavy about oh we're gonna go paint that hopeful optimistic
(24:22):
vision of the future and you know you get the mission statement there and you
put it on NPR and every single foundation's statement is exactly like every other one on NPR.
That's all kind of the easy part.
So for me, I think the question is, well, what is the hard part and what do
we do to try to lean into that?
Now, there's a whole ton of hard parts in philanthropy and a lot of really good
(24:44):
stuff challenging philanthropy about our role.
Trust-based philanthropy off of the power that we have, what we are doing embedding
a series of historical inequities that we don't even see, all of that.
Okay. But building on top of it is, I think, a couple things that are really
important about getting to that future.
One is, and this goes back to communications, and it's just unfortunate,
(25:07):
but back in journalism school, if it bleeds, it leads. Right. Bad stuff...
Always leads. Mark Twain, the rumor gets the rot in the world before the fat
gets out of bed in the morning.
And so we've got this overabundance of deficit-based reporting and stories and
descriptions that hit the space of our brain.
(25:28):
And so I look at that and say, that's just a feature of the ecosystem.
Philanthropy is in the business of hope, number one.
And number two, one of the the unique things we have is we don't actually have
to raise money, sell anything, get reelected.
And so who but us to lean into that? Okay, yeah, that's fine.
But what are we going to support and who are we going to lift up and what are those vehicles?
(25:51):
Sure, it may be tilting at windmills, but we need to do more and more of that.
So positive frame, asset-based, solutions-focused. So that's thing one.
I don't know how to do that. And this region and the folks here are are buried
by that like everybody else is.
But I do have a couple hypotheses.
One of these is we do ourselves no favors by saying that the world is always
(26:16):
coming to an end when in fact it's not and it's getting better.
So you look at climate change now, which I spent my entire career working on.
I wrote a grad school thesis on the thing in 1992 and was working on it before
that. And it is just not true that we haven't made progress.
In fact, we are winning on climate change.
(26:38):
And the we is like society and the better of the world that we're going to move in.
There are only two problems. One is the goalpost keeps on moving because the
impacts are sliding closer and closer to us than a lot of folks imagined.
It's kind of the worst case scenario, and that scientists can tell you about that.
And the second one is because of that, we simply have to win faster,
but we are still winning.
(26:58):
20 years ago, the projections for what warming would look like were multiple
degrees higher than they are now.
Well, who knows that? Nobody. Because the people who actually should be celebrating it don't do it.
But why should we be celebrating it? We have to celebrate it because we actually
know how to get this done.
And there are phenomenal people that have actually succeeded in getting this
along the way. And it means we can go further.
(27:19):
So we have to make that happen. So that's an example. Here's another example.
This was a Nick Kristof column. And once a year, Nick Kristof in the Times essentially
says, I'm going to write you the optimistic column because I spend so much time
necessarily being pessimistic.
So he writes at the end of last year, and this blew me away.
But the lowest percentage of children in the world failing to get to or through
(27:43):
their teenage years in the history of the world was last year.
In the history of the world, we've got fewer kids not making it through than
ever in the history of the world. Well, who knows that?
Nobody? All right. So we've got a responsibility to build on those things.
And I think, again, there's a role for philanthropy to be able to make that happen.
(28:04):
And then I think the last thing I'll say on this is we also just don't know
the indicators that would tell us if we were getting to that hopeful,
optimistic future. Sure.
All the indicators we have look backwards and say what's happening right now,
and then what's lousy or all that kind of stuff in the trend line.
The only thing that supposedly tells us whether we're doing well are gross national
(28:26):
product, gross domestic product numbers.
And those have nothing to do with happiness and utility for human beings.
All the data says that got disconnected along about 1970.
So philanthropy, again, where are those indicators? What are we tracking?
And can we commit to those things so you could actually say,
hey, hey, we're making progress or not.
So you asked me, why is this so hard? Or what am I learning? Or what are we doing?
(28:48):
And I am super interested in those types of questions because philanthropy uniquely
can afford to take the risks on sorting those out.
So that would be one way of answering your question. Now you'd be like,
Chris, that's not the question I meant. I meant this one. No, that was good.
So given that you are at the center of the universe.
(29:11):
Yep. and you have a couple of billion dollars to use to advance these kinds of ideas.
And frankly, it being a regional foundation, you're extremely kind of relative
to the economy around you.
You have at least the spending power that you probably had at the Backard Foundation given the venue.
(29:33):
Fair enough. Yeah. Where are you going with this? How are you going to kind
of create that kind of leverage and move these kinds of issues?
How do you think about doing that in philanthropy? to be. I think you're exactly
right on what you just laid out.
I think one of the things that's exciting about Pittsburgh is the center of
the universe is that Pittsburgh actually used to be even more center of the
universe in the industrial age.
And there's a lot of latent commitment, talent, capacity, and resources.
(29:56):
And one of those is this philanthropic abundance that is here.
So I think one of the questions here that is the hardest thing in the world
is if there's is an organization that exists,
and in a trust-based philanthropy way, we should be listening,
understanding, general support grants over a number of years to help them achieve their mission.
(30:19):
And they need to go through transformation, just like this whole region in our
society needs to go through transformation.
How do you know in philanthropy if the dollars you are giving is helping that
nonprofit organization have the space to go through the transformation, transformation,
or are they buffering that organization from the market forces they would otherwise be receiving,
(30:41):
telling them to go through the transformation?
I think that's A, the one of most critical questions for philanthropy in this moment in time.
And now you got to do the wisdom to know the difference question.
And how are you going to get the wisdom to know the difference? It's people.
It's people and it's relationship. relationship and this is
my this is what i ask and people around here every moment is i as i go in and
(31:05):
i'm like here's what i'm committed to doing eric i am committed to earning your
trust so that you will at some point when you feel ready tell me the twenty
percent of the stuff in your head that is the important stuff for me to know.
But you're not going to go there yet until you believe I'm actually trustworthy
to utilize that in relationship with you.
(31:26):
I think about that in every single conversation I have with everybody here at
the endowments and in the region, because I believe that's probably the only
real answer to your question.
That's a pretty good one. Well, as we kind of wind down here,
just a couple other questions for you.
And I guess this one is a little existential, but having gotten to where you
(31:50):
are now and And really, I mean, it's a great achievement. It just is.
But if you knew back then when you were at Fenton or EMS or Packard along the
way, if you knew then what you now know,
because I do think that you have a very sensitive and thoughtful approach to this work,
obviously informed by many years, what would you have done differently?
(32:13):
You know, one thing, you and I are being of a certain age, you can always look
backwards and tell a more coherent story than was happening at the time,
right, in your journey. Everybody can do that in their life.
So anything I would have done differently, I actually am not somebody that spends
a lot of time looking at like regrets, or I wish I'd done that,
you know, exit A as opposed to exit B in this.
(32:38):
If I earlier on could have recognized that there are things that I am good at
and they have shadow sides, and if I could have been better about understanding
those shadow sides and being curious about them.
So I am good at talking. I'm good at explaining stuff. I am good at taking a
bunch of information and kind of putting it together in real time.
(32:59):
But you can mask a lot of problems with that. that.
One of the reasons, frankly, that I never became a journalist was recognizing that in myself.
And I got an award for a piece that I wrote for the Daily Cardinal,
shout out University of Wisconsin Journalism School and Daily Cardinal, fabulous.
(33:19):
Tons of us came through there and learned a lot. But I got an award for a piece
that I wrote, and it was about a music festival that was going on in Madison.
And I was supposed to go in and follow a couple of the headline acts and then
interview them and this kind of stuff.
And I didn't really have the courage to go in there and as an undergrad do that.
(33:39):
But I came across a busker on the street during that festival and I interviewed him.
And I loved the juxtaposition about his life. It was happening all the time
while this music festival was going on. I wrote this piece.
I wrote this award about there was award winning, right?
But I had to also be honest with myself that I didn't have have the courage
to ask the hard question.
I wrote around the holes in my reporting and I got lucky.
(34:05):
And I had to be honest with myself about that. And frankly, I'm glad I wasn't
a journalist because journalists at the moment of truth have to be jerks and
they have to be willing to be jerks.
And that's a little hard for me to be intentionally sometimes.
I'm unintentionally a jerk a bunch, I'm sure.
But at any rate, you asked me the question, what knowing then as opposed to
now? And I think it is the understanding and looking at the shadow sides that
(34:29):
I had. And then I suppose with a little compassion.
All right. Last question. How do you feel about the Pirates this year?
I knew you were going to get to that.
So when you just said you were so excited that I was here and that I moved to
Pittsburgh, it's because the one thing you think the Mets probably can do is
finish higher in the standings than the Pirates.
So I actually, PNC Park is fabulous. It's a jewel of the downtown Pittsburgh.
(34:53):
We have an incredible set of resources
to build on. We've got a cultural district right across the river.
Folks, come and visit. It is the center of the universe, and it's also really fun.
Seeing a Pirates game is great. You get to watch the pierogies racing around on the outfield fence.
You just can't not see that many wins. Well, but they at least have a young
team with some cool players that they decided to sign long-term and commit to.
(35:15):
And I think if you're a sports team, this is back to an old Seinfeld episode.
Basically, free agents come and go and ownership comes and goes.
You're basically just rooting for the laundry, right?
I think this is better than rooting for the laundered. And I will spare you
my diatribe against the Mets, which you have fully embodied anyway.
(35:36):
Well, you are the St.
Jude, the patron saint of lost
causes. You were the Orioles when they were terrible. Yes, absolutely.
And the A's. Absolutely right. Yes, I've picked centers of the universe,
D.C., Silicon Valley, and now Pittsburgh, which I fundamentally believe have
a baseball crisis associated with them.
(35:56):
Some professor can run the regression analysis about why that is.
Well, this has been such a fun conversation. It has been.
Thank you, Eric. For folks out there who are, for you foundation presidents
in the Sanctum Sanctorum,
I would hope you take Chris's advice and thoughts to heart about how to integrate
communications at the beginning and understand how issues move.
(36:20):
I know you do, but there are so many tools at your disposal and you,
Chris, have had this incredible communications career that you're turning into,
I think, the opportunity to really make huge change.
And as you say, and I'm now a convert, Pittsburgh is the center of the universe.
I can't think of anybody more adept at navigating that universe than you.
(36:43):
I just thank you, Chris, so much for talking with us. Thanks for what you're
doing. And you know, I'm a convert.
Well, I really appreciate it, Eric. And thank you. Thank you for the time. Give my best to Kirk.
You get all the glory on this podcast, but I know Kirk is coming next,
so I'm going to butter him up. So he's kind to me on this.
It's been great to be with you. Thank you. It's great to have you.
Chris DiCardi, president of the Heinz Endowments.
(37:08):
And we're back. So again, I'm going to say it again.
Nobody. Say it again. Nobody says it better. better. Nobody does it better than Chris Ducati.
You ask him why he's there. What is he doing? Pittsburgh is the center of the
universe. Here's why three steps. And you know what? He's absolutely right.
But you listen to that conversation of like, this is Jordan saying,
(37:28):
I'm going down the lane and I'm going to score the winning bucket.
This is just an all-time great.
It's so awesome. So how was it going to see Chris in Pittsburgh and seeing him
in his new surroundings?
The child of Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan. That's what he is. It's Chris Ducati.
That's right. That's right. It's a delight.
(37:49):
I had a chance to spend time with Chris recently, and it's so much fun to watch him in this element.
And what he's doing, yeah, I am sold that Pittsburgh is the center of the universe.
I mean, he makes a very good political case for why we have to understand and engage in.
And it's, you know, Pittsburgh, in a sense, is a proxy for a whole bunch of
(38:13):
transitioning, kind of politically transitioning regions, kind of purple places.
And it's it is quite true that we have huge communications challenges ahead
of us on things like what do jobs in the future look like and where are people
going to work and what kind of relationships are they going to have with their community?
(38:36):
And what effect does it have on the environment? What effect does it have on our quality of life?
Things like that. And that is front and center right now in Western Pennsylvania,
like it is in parts of Michigan, parts of Wisconsin.
Wisconsin, parts of Colorado, name your place where the old economies are giving
(38:56):
way to something that people don't fully trust yet and don't quite understand.
And our job is to build that trust and help promote that understanding.
And nobody knows this more than Chris.
Well, I can't imagine a better equipped, a better skilled, a better qualified
person to help facilitate that than Chris at the Heinz Endowment right now.
And so here he goes through his own trajectory, his own history of getting to where he's gotten.
(39:20):
You know, he starts with his journalism and communications, you know,
he's from the Midwest, by the way, start there.
He's already got lots of assets behind him. He's, he's, he's,
he's a Midwesterner and he goes to DC.
Works at Fenton, helps create the transcendent environmental media services,
which we can talk about a little bit, know that, know that, know that story
(39:41):
a little bit, but then moves on from there to the the foundation side and this
dynamic of harnessing all of this knowledge and expertise related to communications.
Now I'm going to jump into the foundation space, start on the comms desk.
Then I'm going to move to senior leadership.
The really talented people, they get promoted.
The highly mediocre stay in that job and then they become consultants.
(40:04):
Please continue. Here's my question though, because this is the trajectory I
wish that we saw more of in in philanthropic leadership coming out of this work,
this frontline work around communications.
And I keep, you know, I listened to somebody like Chris, and this is a question
I've had a few different times in this podcast.
Do you listen to Chris talk about this work? And I think, okay,
(40:25):
is there a system that we can replicate here?
Meaning that trajectory, that learning, that knowledge, that skillset that Chris
now brings to the work, or is this just Chris?
And it might just be Chris, you know, that ability to just bring these ideas together.
Other he's so clearly such a well-spoken can
take these issues and drill them down to their key element so
quickly but man i wish we had more people in philanthropic leadership on the
(40:48):
program side coming through this training ground this proving ground on the
communication side i feel like that's that's a process that could help achieve
this goal of trying to bring the comms piece further you know earlier into our
considerations when you think about strategy Yes.
And of course, the other famous ex-communications director is our pal Grant Oliphant.
(41:09):
Yes. Yes. But they're kind of few and far between.
If you look around at foundation leadership, not that many of them came out
of communications. Very, very few.
That's, it's an interesting, it's just an interesting phenomenon.
I think we absolutely put a premium on so-called program specific knowledge.
(41:30):
And then there's, you know, then there are the folks who are,
whatever they are, management consultants and that kind of thing.
I'm happy to see that more people are coming through activism,
people who are actually out there who did things.
And now those folks are becoming CEOs.
And that's a great development. But we need more of them, too,
(41:50):
because those folks understand communications as an integrated component into
that kind of work, into activism and rolling up your sleeves,
getting things done-ism.
So that you know it's true i would like to see better i won't call it better
but i would like to see more communications in leadership for sure well just
(42:11):
able to bring that sensibility forward you know i mean this this notion of a
hopeful optimistic economic vision for our future,
and that the highs and down ones are going to play a central role in advancing
that story in western pennsylvania that's going to have enormous positive implications
for so many things things we care about.
The big thing in that though, underneath that is that when we do that work,
(42:32):
we are part of your story. You're not part of ours.
We're trying to be part of your evolution, not trying to convince you of ours.
And I love that reflection you guys said.
Chris said, it's still amazing to me that our collective theory of change is
that they only do what I do. They do it the right thing.
And you better support these issues for my reasons, or I don't care. I'd rather lose.
(42:54):
Or if you don't support these issues because you share my values, I'd rather lose.
So I'm right, you're wrong. So that divide, crossing that divide and being like,
no, it's not us, it's them. There's no us in them.
Let's get aligned. We're not trying to convince you to join our club.
We're trying to understand where you're at.
Again, that just feels like a sensibility that Chris is just so deeply holds
and can show, can model for other foundations what that's going to look like,
(43:16):
regardless of the scale, regardless of the area where people are working.
We hear a lot about audience-centered design. And God bless the nice people
at the d.school at Stanford for coining a phrase about something that.
Good communications people have been doing for years is what does the audience care about?
And how do I create messages that speak to their values in ways that are consistent with my own goals?
(43:42):
They don't conflict with my goals, but they're consistent with them,
but it's about them, not us. And that is basically audience-centered design.
Good for them for helping to make people understand it in a different way.
But that is quite true. That is a communications mentality, which is who's my
audience and what do they care about? Now let's have a conversation.
(44:03):
Not who's my audience and how do I get them to put them in a headlock to make
them do the thing I want them to do, even though they don't care about it.
It doesn't tend to work so well.
Well, and it's this challenge of, it's a communications problem first,
even before you know what the problem is.
I love Chris's reflection, this thing about, I have this event report study
(44:23):
person, please make it the center of my campaign.
Chris is like, Like, why don't we think about the goal first?
I remember, you know, back in the day when EMS was turning into Environmental
Media Services West and then it became, you know, what we named it, Resource Media.
Yeah, you ran. So here's where the roads converge.
And Chris was my first meeting when I first took that job to help run what was
(44:46):
that, Environmental Media Services West.
But the big refrain back then, people were calling a week before the press release was due.
And a week wasn't a long enough to create a good press release.
We wanted to be called two weeks before the, before the press releases do.
And I remember having the first meeting with the entire staff team,
which is really then just a random collection of consultants. And I do think.
(45:08):
You know, there's a, there's a hidden story here around all this stuff,
which we won't talk about today, but none of this works if you can't get hired,
you know, so you can be as lofty and as loud, you know, auditory around all
this stuff that you want, but you've got to figure out ways to get this into the ecosystem.
But, you know, we had this conversation and I, and I said to this team,
you know, we've got to be upstream.
We've got to be right on day one. We have to be part of the conversation just
(45:28):
as it's getting started.
Nobody in the room knew what that meant because it's so hard to bridge that
conversation when when things are so vague and so uncertain.
So again, I think back to a Krista Cardi and think about his capacity to bring
people together and facilitate those conversations way up front.
It almost seems like part of this leadership role we need is the ability to
(45:52):
facilitate and mediate and moderate those kinds of conversations,
you know, just so that people can get aligned before you kind of even know what
the, what is of these campaigns.
Well, I've always said that communications is not an activity. It's a mindset.
Yeah. And that a program officer or a CEO or anyone will say,
well, what is it I'm trying to achieve and how does communications help move towards that?
(46:15):
How do I use communications to do that? You have to have a communications mindset
in order to be able to ask that question,
not just I'm going to do a whole bunch of stuff and I want you to promote it
as if that's going to magically make anything happen at all.
So that I've always said that if an organization has a communications mindset,
(46:35):
it doesn't matter whether you have two or 20 communications people there,
you're going to succeed because you're going to understand how things how things
move and how many times, you know, we all have our own values.
We have all of our own goals that we pursue.
As just individuals that we care about. And people don't have a lot of time
and energy to take on somebody else's hobby horse.
(46:58):
It's our own thing. And so the trick is, how do we marshal all of this energy.
That overlaps and use that overlap to move something forward?
That's how you build like real cool coalitions, partnerships and all that stuff.
Well, I'll continue making the pitch that these foundations
(47:19):
consider should consider themselves to be media and
communications enterprises first and everything else
second and i love that chris is
taking on the podcast at the heisen downwards and and i and i actually love
that this is a new thing he gets to do it's a new skill set he gets to hone
but he's also there he's like yeah actually i get it like you know it's been
(47:40):
interesting seeing this proliferation of this media but every institution institution
practically now could use something like this,
which is a direct voice we create and cultivate so that we're actually putting
a spotlight on and sharing the stories about the things that we care about most.
We're not trying to have millions of listeners.
Maybe that'll happen. I wouldn't put it past Chris to actually create that outcome.
But for the people who do listen, this is going to be important.
(48:02):
It's going to be consequential. So how do you think Chris is going to do as a podcast host?
Because I think this is like, man, this is like going to be his next career
after the Heisendom. He's going to be a celebrity.
Well, I would say that it's a very difficult skill to be a good podcaster,
to be a good interviewer.
You have to be so tuned in and perceptive and you have to be able to stir,
(48:27):
steer and otherwise going to rotate your conversation. No, he'll do great.
He's got the kind of curiosity and the kind of enthusiasm that I think it takes
to make these things work. I will take issue with the fact that I don't,
with your contention that foundations should be media entities.
I happen to agree with that. I think that sometimes it might be useful.
(48:49):
It worked for the Kaiser Family Foundation, which literally started its own media operation.
But some foundations don't need that at all. They need to understand how communications
moves and fund those things that will get them there.
And it may be them, it may not be them. Some foundations sometimes are not great
messengers for certain things.
The people who are doing this, the so-called actual real people doing real work,
(49:12):
those are often a better messenger.
So I take minor issue. But I do think that understanding how communications
drives issues, drives change, that you have to have from the get-go or else you're just guessing.
Well it's funny and fair enough because we heard recently that
you know sometimes it's important for foundations to like pay for
(49:33):
the child care and pay for the transportation so there's a lot of stuff that foundations
can leverage the dollars to support so that's a fair point i will say though
there was an aside chris had just a little aside that was a little chilling
for me this is conspiracy kirk enters the room it's one of my favorite kirks
is conspiracy kirk it's an important such an important point though i completely
(49:53):
and i share the sensibility because Because Chris was like,
you know, I know the strategic questions related to communications,
and those remain the same.
Then he started talking about some of the truisms that have been with us for all these years.
But on tactics, because of how the communications landscape has changed,
on tactics, Chris said he's useless. I would probably...
Debate that. I'm sure he's not useless, but there's something important in there,
(50:15):
which is, I think it's possible that none of us, not one person in the entire communications field,
progressive communications field actually understands how tactical delivery
of communications is actually working in today's social media ecosystem,
that we understand parts of it, but the social media enterprises are such black
(50:38):
boxes of what's going in and what's coming out.
That we cannot actually know. And so this piece where Chris is feeling,
yeah, I don't get the tactics.
I actually think in a weird way, we all are probably vulnerable to that in some respect.
And that actually tips me over to, again, the importance of the work that Chris
is doing because Chris is in the field now in places that most of us will never
(51:02):
go to, never think about, and most philanthropic dollars will never reach.
And we wonder what's happening in those places and how are people's opinions and views being shaped?
And then why do they act or behave certain ways? Well, in my experience is one
of the reasons things go the way they go is because those areas are being utterly ignored.
Even though we talk about it, there's so few people that are actually showing up.
To do that hard spade work. But what do you think about that?
(51:24):
I mean, I think this notion that we kind of don't get our, you know,
it's not, it's not, we got page one above the fold on the New York Times anymore.
And we know that's going to have a certain, you know, number of points in the
whole, it's a totally different consideration now.
Yeah. Some geek in his grandmother's basement just changed the algorithm by
one word that caused us to succeed instead of fail.
(51:46):
That's interesting. And by the way, that little aluminum foil hat looks lovely
on you. Well, and hopefully this
is because hopefully it's a geek in the grandmother's basement, right?
Hopefully it's not one million bots, right? Exactly.
It's not some auto system running. And what we're calling the social media conversation
is actually a completely manufactured creation that we don't even know where
(52:09):
it's coming from, where it's going,
except that it's affecting people in their lives in terms of how they view the world.
We have no idea to what extent that's shaping opinion in key parts of the country,
including Western Pennsylvania.
At least that's what I think. What do you think about that? Thank you for ruining my day.
Thanks for that. I was having a perfectly good day, and now you've dropped a bomb on me.
(52:32):
Hey, so I will say you are getting good at this interview thing.
You're getting good at this.
Here's my question for you. You're getting good at it. It's only taken six years,
but you're getting really good at it.
How was it interviewing a dear friend? And did you, how'd you prep for that?
Like, did you have to come in with questions?
Did you just, you know, did you just, you know, how was that?
Cause you actually got, you covered some really good ground that I do want to
(52:53):
talk about what Chris had to say about kind of the, the balance of messaging
and, you know, the, the negative versus positive vision we're trying to create.
But how was it talking to Chris like that?
Well, I mean, the only thing I can say is that you have to make sure that you
talk about something substantive and not just talk smack about whatever your
fantasy baseball team or something like that. So in that sense,
(53:14):
I was trying to keep it professional.
But it's always great to interview somebody,
whom you know well, because you can cut to the chase. There's no,
you know, he talked about this notion of trust.
And when you, and I think that we all have these colleagues in our fields whom
we trust implicitly and to whom we can say anything, any stupid idea and not feel bad about it.
(53:40):
And I think that building those kinds of relationships are essential.
I think also that Zoom and the pandemic and
this dislocation and disconnection that
many people feel are are making that more problematic
but because we go back so far i i
can tell them anything and i can tell them that's a stupid idea i can tell them
(54:01):
that's a great idea and if i say it's a great idea he actually knows that i
think it's a great idea instead of i'm the president of the heinz endowment
everybody's gonna they're gonna tell me i'm fabulous and so in that sense having
surrounding yourself with people who will actually actually tell you you stink.
Is good.
It's lucky. And I strive to have those people in my life as well.
(54:22):
Not because people tell me I'm smart or good or anything, because I don't work
for a foundation anymore.
I got stupider, by the way, when I left the Hewlett Foundation.
But there were a bunch of people who could tell me I was stupid and I believed them.
And then if they told me that I was smart, then I really believed them because
no one would tell me that.
So, but Chris's reflection at the end.
(54:46):
He's so committed to building these trusting relationships so that people will tell him what's true.
And I can't imagine a better person equipped to actually build relationships like that.
And how smart, how savvy it is to be thoughtful in that way to say my role here,
first and foremost, is to build trust.
And I do think that's an interesting challenge he's reflecting on,
you know, as philanthropy provides dollars to help organizations grow and evolve
(55:10):
and provide general operating support over multiple years.
Are we helping organizations transform in the ways they need to because they're
remaining sensitive and responsive to circumstances as they evolve in front of them?
Or are we actually inoculating them to a certain extent from their need to change?
What a challenging thing to sort out.
And again, the depth and breadth of experience that Chris brings,
his integrity, his authenticity, but his ability to actually develop these real
(55:34):
relationships with people, I feel like is going to be an incredible asset to
him as he tries to sort out key questions like that.
Yeah, that's right. Right. You just have to have a pretty good BS meter and
you have to be kind of humble because I imagine that it must be a little tricky
when everyone is telling you you're so fabulous.
As I said this a million times, Paul Brass, president of the Hewlett Foundation,
when I got there, had this little plaque on his desk that said,
(55:55):
with money in your pocket, you're handsome, you're funny, and you sing well, too.
And Paul always had that sense of reality that people were going to say he was those things.
And he was. No, but it was.
And yeah, like I say, Chris, I think has the right temperament for this kind of job.
(56:16):
And and of course, he's smart and he's a great communicator.
Yeah, he's I've and he follows in the the excellent footsteps of Grant Oliphant,
who who helped build Heinz into a regional force in so many ways and helped
develop a lot of really, really great grant making over there.
So it's kind of like the best of all worlds, if you ask me.
(56:39):
Well, and I can't wait to see him, we'll leave on this, but I can't wait to
see him attack this issue he's talking about around communications and storytelling
and how we have such an overabundance of deficit-based stories.
The bad stuff always leads, it leads, it leads.
And philanthropy being in the business of hope, how do we reorient our communications
to this positive frame, this solutions-focused, asset-based communications framework? and work.
(57:04):
And it's interesting in places like Western Pennsylvania, as much as it's true,
there are so many areas where we've made progress. There's so many places we're making great strides.
These communities are also under enormous stress and strain.
They're losing local newspaper outlets. They're losing local healthcare.
They're kind of being drained of their vitality in so many ways.
(57:25):
And for a hopeful, optimistic, partnership-based entity to come forward like
the the Heinz endowments and say, we care about you.
We're going to focus on you. We're going to lift you up, tell us how we can
help and turn those stories into place-based stories of hope and optimism.
That's going to be transformational work. And so, you know, so again,
I mean, back to Chris's first point, he stands at the center of the universe
(57:46):
and I can't imagine a better person to actually be standing right at the center
there with all of his partners, all of his colleagues, the board,
the trustees, but he is putting his hand up to say, I want to be part of something
that's really important,
but also incredibly difficult to work ahead for Chris in the Heinz Endowment. Incredibly difficult.
Well, if it was easy, anyone could do it. And by the way, Kirk,
I have to say that you have become quite the excellent play-by-play man.
(58:07):
What are you saying? What are you talking about? If I do the color commentary,
you're an excellent play-by-play. You're helping make sense of things.
You really listen to the interviews.
You pull out the best bits of it. Well done, sir.
This is what we need. We need a podcast so we can talk about why these people
are great. It'll never work.
Chris Ducardi is great. Chris Ducardi is great. He deserves to hear that.
(58:30):
He deserves to be recognized.
He deserves to be acknowledged. We need the field that could put a positive
spotlight on ourselves and say, thank you and congratulations.
So yes, thank you. I'll take it. I'll take it.
All right. Chris, you're great. I'm going to send you a small packet of Thorazine.
There you go. Well, Chris Ducati, president of the Heinz Endowments.
(58:52):
My goodness, Chris, thank you for joining us on Let's Hear It.
Thank you for all the work you've done. There are billions of people who will
never beat you that can say thank you for standing up Climate Works,
not to mention all the other work you did at the Packard Foundation.
You touched millions and millions of people in a positive way,
and you'll never say it or cop to it because you're a modest Midwestern nerd,
but my goodness, Chris. And Eric, what a conversation. That was awesome.
(59:13):
Well, that was really fun. And yeah, I just, I really cherish Chris.
If it weren't for him, I probably wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.
For that, I am deeply grateful, but I'm also grateful the work that he is doing
and the work that he will do.
Awesome. Well, thank you, Eric. Thank you, Chris. And thank you all for listening.
We'll see you next time on Let's Hear It.
Okay, everybody, that's it for this episode. Please let us know if you have
(59:36):
any thoughts about what you heard today or people we should have on this show.
And that definitely includes yourself. And we'd like to thank our indefatigable
producer, Harper Brown.
John Ali, the tuneful and inspiring composer of our theme music.
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation.
And please check out Lumina's terrific podcast, Today's Students, Tomorrow's Talent.
(59:57):
And you can find that at luminafoundation.org. We certainly thank today's guest
and, of course, all of you.
And most importantly, thank you, Mr. Brown.
Oh, no, no, no, no. Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Music.
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