144 - BIBFRAME must die - librarypunk

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin: I'm Justin. I'm Skullcom Librarian. My pronouns are he and they. (00:25):
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Sadie: I'm Sadie. I work IT at a public library, and my pronouns are they, them. (00:28):
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Jay: And I'm Jay. I'm a cataloging librarian, and my pronouns are he, him. (00:32):
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Justin: No guests, just the crew. I also didn't get any library news for this one, (00:36):
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Justin: but what happened with the Proton guy? I didn't really understand it from the (00:42):
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Justin: Mastodon DMs or whatever, the Mastodon posts. (00:47):
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Jay: Oh, just that he's like, J.D. Vance is good, actually, and the Republicans are (00:50):
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Jay: better about lobbying against big tech TM than the Democrats. (00:55):
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Justin: Sounds like Cope. (01:01):
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Jay: Yeah. (01:02):
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Justin: Sadie, you were muted. (01:03):
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Sadie: Oh, yeah. So that was pretty much my understanding. It's just the shilling for J.D. Vance. Gross. (01:04):
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Justin: Yeah. (01:12):
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Jay: It's kind of what i was. (01:12):
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Justin: Worried about when you told me that proton has like the storage stuff and i (01:13):
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Justin: was like but what if the proton people are like even worse weirdos. (01:18):
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Jay: They do have like you can do like they have a crypto wallet yeah yeah but like (01:22):
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Jay: all the privacy people weirdly are like into crypto because you can pay for (01:27):
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Jay: vpns without leaving a paper trail or something i don't know like mulvad accepts (01:31):
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Jay: bitcoin as a form of payment but. (01:36):
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Justin: There is a paper trail it's literally a distributed ledger it's everywhere. (01:38):
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Jay: You can also literally mail them cash in an envelope which is like literally (01:42):
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Jay: why mulvad like they're like the only like the the true heads know like if you (01:47):
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Jay: really don't want to do anything you just mail five dollars in an envelope to (01:52):
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Jay: mulvad for your account our. (01:56):
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Justin: Sponsor this week is mulvad send them cash. (02:00):
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Jay: I weirdly used to see mulvad like bought (02:03):
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Jay: ads for the for the tea like in (02:06):
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Jay: the mbta stations there would be like change up (02:09):
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Jay: your like your location tracking like (02:12):
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Jay: get off at a different stop than you usually do mulvad (02:16):
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Jay: like it was like weirdly like little privacy tips (02:20):
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Jay: and then it'd be like mulvad vpn or like they have a new browser now that's (02:23):
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Jay: basically tor and i think they do it with tor but instead of it being a tor (02:27):
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Jay: network it's a mulvad vpn like Like if you want the version of Tor that's a (02:31):
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Jay: VPN instead of an Onion router, Amolvad made one. (02:36):
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Jay: That's apparently pretty good. It's still based off of the same Mozilla Thunder backing. (02:40):
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Justin: The Mozilla VPN thing or the Mozilla Tor? (02:45):
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Jay: Browser. (02:49):
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Jay: Yeah, like Tor is based off of a Mozilla browser, right? (02:51):
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Sadie: I think so. (02:54):
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Jay: Yeah. (02:54):
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Justin: Makes sense. Yeah, I've been thinking about switching up my browsers again. (02:55):
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Justin: Because I feel like Brave just doesn't do anything all that impressive. (02:58):
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Jay: I just use Safari. It mainly, and this is going to sound so stupid, (03:02):
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Jay: because on my computer I can do Apple Pay with it. (03:07):
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Jay: And also, if I have to get a verification code sent to me via text, (03:09):
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Jay: it will auto-load it into the field and mark the messages read like it does on my phone. (03:13):
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Justin: That's good. Maybe I should use Safari on my phone more. With ecosystem. (03:20):
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Jay: I mean, on your phone, it'll do it no matter what you're in. (03:24):
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Jay: But on your computer, like Safari, (03:27):
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Jay: you have to be using Safari for that to work. But on your phone, yeah. (03:30):
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Justin: Oh, is that Apple doing that? I thought that was Bitwarden and LastPass were doing that. (03:34):
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Jay: No, that's Apple doing that. (03:39):
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Justin: I only noticed it after I put LastPass on my phone. So maybe I also was around (03:41):
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Justin: the same time I got an update. (03:45):
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Jay: Yeah. And it's not like the multi-factor (03:47):
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Jay: authentication where it's an authenticator sending you a code. (03:50):
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Jay: It's like if you get a code texted to you. Yeah. What Apple will do will be (03:53):
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Jay: like, here's the code that just got texted to you, and then mark the message (03:57):
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Jay: as read, so you don't have to go click the stupid message. (04:01):
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Jay: I'm lazy, is the thing. (04:05):
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Sadie: I think most people are. (04:08):
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Justin: Speaking of notifications, I got a notification that Guillermo del Toro was (04:10):
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Justin: following us on Blue Sky, because I went through everyone Jay was following (04:14):
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Justin: and just started following them, because I was kind of getting bored with my feed. (04:18):
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Justin: So I was just like, all right, well, if Jay's already following the person, I'll just follow them. (04:22):
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Justin: And I think Guillermo del Toro was on that list. (04:26):
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Justin: And I think I accidentally hit follow back when looking at his notifications (04:29):
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Justin: and followed us for a second. (04:32):
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Justin: Because as soon as I saw it, I was like, who called himself Guillermo del Toro? (04:35):
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Justin: And then I clicked on it and I was like, there's no notification there. (04:38):
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Justin: And I looked it up like, oh, it was him. (04:42):
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Sadie: For a brief moment. (04:44):
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Jay: Very funny. (04:46):
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Sadie: It was glorious. (04:47):
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Justin: That or he didn't like what he saw. The bear followed by a couple of like well-known (04:49):
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Justin: people. So we're followed by a lot of authors and stuff who I'm like, (04:52):
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Justin: I don't know your books. I don't know who you are. (04:56):
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Justin: I think because we have David and Chuck following us, a lot of authors are like, oh, okay. (04:59):
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Jay: They're librarians. We like those. (05:04):
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Sadie: Yeah. (05:05):
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Jay: In theory. (05:05):
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Sadie: They must talk about books. (05:06):
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Sadie: Sometimes. (05:08):
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Justin: So what are we going to talk about today? Not books. (05:10):
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Jay: Yeah. We're going to talk about Bibframe, but actually we're going to talk about (05:13):
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Jay: these three and there's probably going to be more. (05:18):
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Jay: But so far, as of yet, there have been three non-scholarly articles titled Bib (05:21):
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Jay: Frame Must Die by a cataloger, I believe you pinned. (05:29):
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Jay: And yeah, I have read these. And then I've also in the Radcat listserv, (05:35):
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Jay: which if you're a cataloging librarian and you're not on the Radcat listserv, (05:40):
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Jay: you should get on the Radcat listserv. (05:43):
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Jay: It's where all of the people who aren't libs go to talk about cataloging stuff. (05:46):
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Jay: It's it's auto cap but good and yeah (05:51):
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Jay: so then people have been talking about about these and (05:56):
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Jay: i want to talk about them because like i agree (05:59):
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Jay: with them but i also have some critiques tm of them and jeff edmonds uh if you're (06:03):
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Jay: if you happen to listen to this ever thank you for writing these and getting (06:11):
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Jay: people talking about this and i hope you take our criticisms in good faith the (06:15):
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Jay: way we And if you're a cataloger out there, (06:20):
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Jay: shouts out, join the Discord, let us know what you think about these. (06:22):
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Jay: Because I'm honestly curious what other cataloging librarians think of this. (06:26):
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Jay: Yeah, because like, I will come right out the gate and say that I'm a bit of (06:31):
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Jay: an RDA apologist. Gasp, I know. (06:36):
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Jay: And these articles should be retitled, Why RDA Must Die, not Why BitBrain Must Die. (06:40):
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Jay: But I, yeah, so I'm a bit of an RDA apologist, but the reasons I like RDA are (06:48):
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Jay: all to do with the original RDA Toolkit and not the official RDA Toolkit TM. (06:56):
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Jay: Anyway, I lost my train of thought there. Okay. (07:02):
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Jay: And I'm going out of order. So Justin, do you want to do this or you want me to do this? (07:05):
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Justin: Yeah, we can start off with what is BibFrame? So we did an episode 135 about (07:09):
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Justin: linked open data, and I think we talked about BibFrame in that. (07:14):
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Justin: But BibFrame is a linked data plan to be a replacement for Mark, (07:17):
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Justin: but now it's discussed more as a successor to Mark because Mark is old and therefore bad. (07:24):
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Justin: And you got to use three number digit fields like in the olden days of computers. (07:30):
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Justin: And I mean Mark does have problems that are kind. (07:35):
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Jay: Of like unsolvable. (07:39):
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Justin: Because it's so ubiquitous so it's like well what are you gonna do about it (07:40):
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Justin: it's why a lot of legacy stuff lives on Fortran still because it's like well (07:43):
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Justin: unless there's a Y2K about to happen we really don't have a reason to fix this (07:48):
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Justin: or spend all the money to fix it. (07:53):
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Jay: Yeah and I will say that like link data in (07:55):
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Jay: libraries is not a totally out there (07:58):
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Jay: idea because like i remember when i was in grad school (08:01):
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Jay: and just to let people know this was 2015 to (08:04):
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Jay: 2017 that like the way (08:07):
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Jay: that we were taught like linked data because i took an ontology development (08:10):
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Jay: course like i made a linked data ontology in (08:13):
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Jay: grad school i've been in the right and i (08:16):
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Jay: also like took a metadata like in theory and praxis (08:19):
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Jay: course praxis huh practice i just (08:22):
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Jay: got back from an organizing meeting so you know it's on my head right now and it (08:25):
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Jay: was like you know in premise and all this they use (08:28):
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Jay: like URIs right they're like linked data ontologies (08:31):
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Jay: even if they're not right and I will say (08:35):
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Jay: that like especially in Europe digital libraries so libraries (08:37):
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Jay: have like scanned special collections and archives or like fine arts especially (08:40):
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Jay: in Europe have been doing linked data for a long time like the Europeana which (08:45):
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Jay: is like their version of the DPLA has been like a linked data environment I (08:50):
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Jay: don't think it was ever a bib frame but it was like using the concept of URIs (08:53):
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Jay: and like semantic linking shit together. (08:58):
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Jay: And then when we learned about BibFrame, especially like I've (09:00):
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Jay: been at conferences where there have been like BibFrame shills doing presentations (09:03):
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Jay: and their main selling point was if you have a patron from your library who (09:08):
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Jay: is searching for a book on Google in the little knowledge bar in this side. (09:15):
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Jay: It will show up that your library has the book and they can get it. (09:21):
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Jay: That basically using linked data is a way to expose your collections to search indexing. (09:26):
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Jay: And that was the main selling point of BibFrame when I was in grad school. (09:32):
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Jay: People didn't give a shit about connecting shit. It was expose your collections (09:37):
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Jay: to Google so that people can find them on Google. And that was like it. (09:42):
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Jay: That was what people cared about. So I'm curious how you two heard about BibFrame (09:47):
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Jay: or how it was like sold to you ever at any point. (09:53):
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Sadie: That's kind of pretty much the same thing that I always thought was that I was (09:57):
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Sadie: just like, oh, it'll pull it out and put it in places people are already looking. (10:01):
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Sadie: And like, I feel like that's the purpose of a lot of discovery layers these days. (10:05):
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Jay: Discovery layers don't even really do that. They'll expose it to Google Scholar. (10:12):
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Sadie: Huh. (10:16):
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Jay: Well, but discovery layers mainly just bring in journal articles along with your books. Yeah. (10:17):
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Sadie: Well, yeah. And I think I've always kind of struggled to figure out what exactly (10:23):
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Sadie: the purpose of BibFrame is. (10:28):
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Sadie: I remember at one point in time trying to read about it, launching off of something (10:31):
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Sadie: that I read on Tumblr and was like, I don't get this. (10:35):
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Sadie: I don't think I can wrap my head around this. (10:38):
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Sadie: Like some parts of it, the open link data, like the previous episode we had, (10:41):
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Sadie: got that. But BibFrames in particular, I don't really understand. (10:46):
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Sadie: I'm going to be honest here. What's RDA? (10:50):
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Jay: We will get into that. (10:52):
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Sadie: Okay. (10:54):
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Jay: Yeah. Yeah. (10:54):
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Sadie: Because I don't remember what RDA is. (10:55):
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Jay: Put a pin in it. (10:57):
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Sadie: Justin. (10:58):
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Jay: What's your BibFrame relationship? (10:59):
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Justin: I don't know if we really ever talked about it in library school that much, (11:02):
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Justin: except that Mark was old and BibFrame was supposed to be a replacement for it. (11:06):
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Justin: And BibFrame could link more things together because a Mark record is just a (11:13):
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Justin: document and it has access points. (11:20):
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Justin: So it acts like a physical document, whereas BibFrame could link things. (11:22):
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Justin: And really the way it was explained to us more was like the whole semantic web (11:26):
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Justin: would be making the web understand human types, like what we talked about in the last episode, (11:31):
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Justin: where the real thing was allowing computers to actually reason through things (11:39):
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Justin: because you could form triples and you could make sentences and data would be linked together. (11:45):
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Justin: And like librarians and stuff would be the ones like cataloging books and publishers (11:51):
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Justin: would catalog books this way. (11:56):
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Justin: And that would link all of like publications together, which was always like, (11:58):
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Justin: I always thought, well, that's a whole lot of labor. (12:03):
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Justin: And I don't think librarians could do all of that, but it would be nice. (12:05):
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Justin: And I always thought, you know, kind of the brute force way that we do it now, (12:09):
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Justin: which is like through full text searching and like algorithmic matching and (12:14):
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Justin: just cramming more and more data in there was kind of like the stupid semantic web because like it. (12:19):
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Justin: It doesn't really teach the connections between things. (12:26):
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Jay: But I think it also is limited by just like, what do you do with a print collection? (12:30):
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Jay: If something's not scanned, then full text searching does shit for that, right? (12:35):
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Jay: This is a preview into my main grievance with this whole conversation. (12:38):
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Justin: Yeah. But when I mentioned that in the last episode as well, (12:45):
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Justin: it's kind of like, yeah, but this, (12:50):
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Justin: type of linking through big data (12:53):
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Justin: is just what's going to happen because it's (12:56):
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Justin: actually cheaper and easier to do even if (13:00):
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Justin: it's messier and creates like it's just (13:03):
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Justin: good enough linking but kind of for most (13:05):
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Justin: use cases you only need good enough so as we are learning with generative ai (13:09):
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Justin: it doesn't matter if it's accurate 90 of the time but if it's 80 of the time (13:13):
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Justin: that's good enough for people to use it and say like oh well if it's only wrong (13:19):
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Justin: one in five times who cares. (13:25):
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Jay: And it. (13:26):
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Justin: Turns out yeah people don't care yeah. (13:28):
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Jay: And so these articles some of (13:29):
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Jay: their main arguments against bibframe are that (13:33):
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Jay: like they argue that it's already outdated because bibframe was (13:36):
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Jay: conceptualized before like algorithmic (13:39):
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Jay: searching really came into fruition right (13:43):
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Jay: like back when you could actually still use boolean on google you (13:46):
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Jay: cannot use boolean on google anymore like you can still use some (13:49):
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Jay: of the operators like the wild cards and shit but (13:52):
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Jay: you can't the google foo that we used to call it or whatever isn't really a (13:55):
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Jay: much of a thing anymore but bitframe imagined that google would still sort of (14:00):
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Jay: like yeah google was always an algorithm but not it not the natural language (14:05):
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Jay: processing kind algorithm that it is now. (14:11):
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Jay: And so Bitframe already didn't anticipate the way that people search for information, (14:14):
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Jay: including in library catalogs, for the most part. (14:19):
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Jay: People don't use library catalogs the way we want them to. (14:22):
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Jay: People will copy-paste citations, people will ask questions and type sentences. (14:25):
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Jay: Yeah, like people don't search the way that we librarians envisioned that they (14:30):
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Jay: would, no matter how much we try to teach them otherwise. (14:35):
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Jay: And so, Sadie, you had a comment in the notes. Would you please explain your comment? (14:39):
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Sadie: I just, that one line made me laugh. It's seemingly enamored of the auricular (14:45):
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Sadie: pronouncements of Tim Berners-Lee. (14:50):
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Sadie: Proponents of bid frame have advanced an agenda divorced from reality. (14:52):
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Sadie: Like, that's particularly cutting to me, it seems like. (14:56):
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Sadie: Like, you dissed Tim Berners-Lee, you dissed everybody who believed in bid frame. (15:00):
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Sadie: It's just an excellent sentence all around. (15:05):
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Jay: Now imagine the world if instead of Tim Berners-Lee being the guy who shaved (15:08):
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Jay: linked data, it was our boy Ted Nelson. (15:16):
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Jay: Imagine how good Bibframe could have been if it was inspired by our boy. Shout out to Ted. (15:18):
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Jay: Yeah, because Tim Berners-Lee was all about, the way I've described it, (15:25):
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Jay: is reconstructing a pre-Towerbabel divine language. (15:29):
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Jay: Everything is these URIs that the computer understands. (15:34):
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Jay: No matter what language, it's all just numbers. And I'm like, (15:40):
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Jay: no, that's not how this should be. Damn it. (15:43):
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Jay: So yeah that's a cool idea yeah bit frame (15:46):
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Jay: and also bit frame is of the link (15:50):
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Jay: data forms i think it's rdf i believe is the format bit frame uses uh i think (15:53):
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Jay: the name the edit of the editor that most that i think like loc uses is sinopia (16:00):
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Jay: or something like that i don't fucking know you can do bit frame and mark edit (16:05):
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Jay: too by the way fun fact and so use mark edit. (16:09):
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Justin: Every day and notice. (16:13):
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Jay: I haven't opened. (16:15):
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Justin: Mark at it in like a couple of years. Yeah. (16:15):
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Jay: So yeah, that's BibFrame. I can go ahead and answer the question, (16:18):
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Jay: what is RDA now as well, I think. (16:21):
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Jay: So RDA stands for Resource Description and Access. (16:24):
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Jay: And in cataloging, there are like standards and there are like schema and then (16:29):
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Jay: there are vocabularies, right? (16:36):
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Jay: Mark 21 is a schema. (16:38):
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Jay: BibFrame is a schema. Dublin Core is a schema. (16:41):
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Jay: This is the structure, the house that the metadata lives in, right? (16:45):
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Jay: And then standards are things like RDA or AACR2 or descriptive cataloging for (16:52):
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Jay: rare materials or whatever it's called. (16:59):
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Jay: How do you put things in the house? That's what the standards do. And RDA is (17:02):
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Jay: replaced, kind of, again, kind (17:09):
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Jay: of, AACR2, which stand for Anglo-American cataloging rules or whatever. (17:13):
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Jay: I never learned AACR2 because RDA had already happened by the time I learned how to catalog. (17:19):
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Jay: However, most catalogs in this world are mixed between RDA and AACR2, (17:25):
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Jay: and the Library of Congress has not officially adopted RDA yet. (17:30):
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Jay: So if you are in connection and you find a (17:35):
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Jay: Library congress record it will not have the (17:38):
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Jay: 040 subfield e rda the two (17:41):
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Jay: six instead of a 264 for the publication info (17:45):
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Jay: it will have the two the old school 260 etc they (17:48):
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Jay: have not officially adopted rda and like back in the day you just like buy a (17:51):
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Jay: fucking aacr2 book and be like here here's how you catalog your standards for (17:56):
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Jay: cataloging and mark 21 have at you aacr2 was functional but also had some stupid (18:00):
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Jay: rules like abbreviating everything. (18:06):
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Jay: Including making abbreviations into Latin and then people complain that RDA (18:09):
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Jay: is too hard, but then they expect you to do all these Latin stupid abbreviations for AACR2. (18:13):
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Jay: This is why I'm like, most of the people who are mad in this conversation are (18:19):
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Jay: also wrong about other things, and I'm the only one who's right. (18:23):
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Jay: RDA is a genuine improvement in a lot of ways over AACR2 despite its very significant (18:28):
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Jay: flaws because I agree with a lot of the criticisms of RDA, but I think people (18:34):
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Jay: also aren't noticing where RDA is right sometimes. (18:38):
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Jay: And so RDA comes along and it's like, hey, what if instead of just cataloging (18:43):
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Jay: for mark, we instead created these rules of description that can be applied to all kinds of schema, (18:47):
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Jay: like Dublin Core or whatever they use in Europe or whatever. (18:54):
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Jay: Here are like the ideas, like what's a title statement? (18:59):
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Jay: What's an imprint statement? What's an addition statement? So instead of cataloging (19:06):
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Jay: for mark tags, you get these chunks of information, right? (19:11):
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Jay: And the chunks of information follow chunks of information about a work, (19:15):
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Jay: chunks of information about an entity, chunks of information about a manifestation, (19:20):
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Jay: and chunks of information about an item. Wimmy. (19:25):
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Jay: Everyone can understand what the I means. (19:29):
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Jay: The item is this exact copy of The Philosophy of Social Ecology by Marie Bookchin (19:33):
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Jay: that I just grabbed off my bed, right? (19:41):
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Jay: This is an item, right? the work is (19:43):
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Jay: when you go to a catalog in a (19:48):
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Jay: library and you search for the philosophy of (19:50):
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Jay: social ecology you kind of don't care if it's this (19:53):
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Jay: exact item you care about like the concept of this book that you think it right (19:56):
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Jay: then there are entities and manifestations and i never really understood the (20:03):
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Jay: difference between them except manifestation is like all of the the books that (20:07):
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Jay: like are printed exactly like this, (20:12):
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Jay: like this edition and everything, (20:15):
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Jay: but I have this item. (20:17):
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Jay: But all of the ones that are just like this, like if I bought a second exact (20:19):
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Jay: copy, those would be of the same manifestation, but they're two different items. (20:23):
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Jay: Stupid bullshit like that. That's not really helpful. (20:28):
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Jay: Movie's dumb. And that's not how people live. (20:32):
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Jay: And notoriously, Wimmy is really bad for things like music. (20:35):
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Jay: If you've got Le Nozze de Figaro, that is the work. But then manifestations (20:40):
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Jay: and bullshit include like a cast recording. It includes the score. (20:44):
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Jay: It includes the libretto that doesn't have the score. (20:50):
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Jay: It includes a videotape. It includes like all of that is technically the same (20:53):
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Jay: work, La Nozze de Figaro. And so in Primo, I would always have music librarians (20:59):
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Jay: yelling at me when I managed it, being like, why is it so bad with music? (21:03):
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Jay: And I'm like, that's not my fault. And I can either turn it on or off. (21:07):
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Jay: Harvard turned theirs off because it's so bad with music. And that's the reason why, for example. (21:11):
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Jay: But rda thinks in wimmy you have like recording bullshit about the work recording (21:17):
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Jay: bullshit about the entity recording bullshit about the manifestation and recording (21:22):
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Jay: bullshit about the item and that's like how you do rda right rda also thinks (21:26):
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Jay: about like how things are connected to other resources right, (21:31):
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Jay: which now Mark does. There are fields in Mark that connect it to other resources (21:36):
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Jay: that can hyperlink in catalogs because of RDA, I think. (21:40):
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Jay: Does that answer your question as to what RDA is? The main problem with RDA (21:46):
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Jay: is that it costs money as a subscription. (21:50):
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Sadie: Who owns it? Who do you subscribe to? Who are you subscribing to? (21:53):
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Jay: RDA. It's a company, like the RDA steering committee or something. (21:58):
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Jay: So it's, yeah, it's proprietary. And also I learned original RDA, (22:04):
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Jay: which is pretty functional, I would argue, and maps very clearly to Mark. (22:09):
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Jay: If you go on the RDA website now and look at their example records. (22:13):
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Jay: They, these are pre-official RDA. (22:18):
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Jay: These are original RDA. They haven't been updated since like 2016. (22:21):
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Jay: In 2017, so right when I'm finishing grad school, (22:25):
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Jay: we start getting official rda original (22:28):
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Jay: rda has not been updated since then (22:32):
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Jay: is still available it is the one i have been (22:35):
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Jay: instructed to use as a cataloger i didn't know official (22:38):
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Jay: rda was a thing because i haven't done cataloging since my (22:41):
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Jay: grad school or had access to rda toolkit right official (22:44):
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Jay: rda is the most incomprehensible bullshit (22:47):
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Jay: i have ever seen in my life (22:51):
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Jay: because it's so hyper focused on the linked data aspect now (22:54):
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Jay: instead of just like a different way of thinking about describing (22:57):
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Jay: resources right because like the thing i like about rda (23:01):
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Jay: is like the resource explains itself right (23:03):
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Jay: you don't do abbreviations and bullshit you don't abbreviate the title you transcribe (23:07):
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Jay: exactly as the resource is listed on the resource there's a typo in that fucking (23:12):
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Jay: title you type that typo and then you provide an alternate title but like the (23:16):
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Jay: point stands you transcribe the the the resource describes itself. (23:21):
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Jay: Whereas at ACR2, you abbreviate and put dot, dot, dots and all sorts of stupid shit. I like that. (23:25):
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Jay: Official RDA, I can't even figure out how to use the website. (23:32):
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Jay: I don't know where I'm supposed to start. (23:35):
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Jay: I have tried. I'm like, what is going on here? (23:37):
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Jay: So that's bad. So official RDA, I think, is what these three articles is really mad about. (23:40):
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Jay: Sorry to derail us, but yeah. (23:48):
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Sadie: So it's not even BibFrame, really? (23:51):
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Jay: No, because no one fucking uses BibFrame except for Library of Congress in Europe. (23:53):
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Jay: Probably University of Washington or some stupid shit. (23:58):
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Jay: Like because like in primo for example (24:00):
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Jay: in alma primo they can like crosswalk mark (24:03):
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Jay: to bib frame for you right so like or (24:07):
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Jay: like people are doing mark xml instead of just (24:10):
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Jay: mark right they're doing xml records fancy mark (24:13):
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Jay: xml is really complicated and stupid no one (24:16):
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Jay: actually uses it but you know uses bib frame (24:19):
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Jay: it's stupid no one likes it it's hard i (24:22):
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Jay: think it's like europe and library of congress uses bib frame (24:26):
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Jay: t b fucking h but everyone's got (24:29):
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Jay: their panties in a twist about rda and have since (24:32):
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Jay: i've been in cataloging like since i was in (24:35):
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Jay: grad school like and i always and like (24:38):
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Jay: no one ever argued for like oh a cr2 was better for patrons they just complained (24:41):
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Jay: about how they didn't like it it was hard for them to understand because there's (24:47):
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Jay: some like rda is more theoretical right There's some like theory that you need (24:52):
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Jay: to understand kind of for RDA to make sense. (24:56):
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Jay: And I was in grad school and so I was taught it. And so I was like, (25:01):
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Jay: okay, this makes sense to me. (25:04):
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Jay: And this is the weird kind of conceptual bullshit I like. Cool, I'm on board with this. (25:06):
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Jay: But like, you know, no one pays for professional continuing development, right? (25:10):
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Jay: No one pays for that shit, which is an argument I'll get into later. (25:16):
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Jay: Anyway, I see the user tasks thing, which honestly, I learned about Ferber in (25:18):
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Jay: grad school, and I don't remember any of it. (25:22):
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Jay: I was like, Ferber, yeah, whatever, fucking with me. I don't remember what any (25:28):
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Jay: of this user tasks IFLA bullshit is. (25:32):
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Jay: So, Justin, do you want to illuminate for us? (25:35):
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Justin: Yeah, well, Ferber is the entity relationship model. (25:39):
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Jay: Right. Okay, yes, which I kind of agree with. (25:44):
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Justin: So a user tasks of retrieval and access in online library catalogs and databases (25:48):
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Justin: from a user's perspective. (25:53):
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Justin: And it's separate from cataloging standards. It's a model that explains work (25:55):
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Justin: expression manifestation item, which is WEMI. (26:01):
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Justin: So it explains how work is a work or item is an exemplar of a manifestation, (26:04):
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Justin: which is an embodiment of an expression, which is a realization of a work. (26:12):
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Jay: Which is very Buddhist, I have to say. This is like Vajrayana emanations out (26:15):
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Jay: of the ground of being bullshit. (26:20):
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Jay: Like the Dalai Lama is an item. (26:22):
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Justin: So a work is like a work. An expression might be additions or drafts. (26:27):
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Justin: And a manifestation would be the physical embodiment. (26:31):
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Justin: And then an item is a singular manifestation. (26:34):
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Justin: So one particular book. So copy one, copy two, copy three in your library. (26:38):
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Jay: Yeah. (26:44):
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Justin: So like the item record, basically. And who owns... (26:45):
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Justin: Official RDA toolkit is owned by ALA, CLA, and CILIP. (26:49):
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Jay: That's right. (26:54):
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Justin: I don't know what's, I don't remember what KILIP, I don't, Chartered Institute (26:55):
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Justin: of Library and Information Professionals, but I don't know. (26:59):
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Jay: That's the UK. (27:02):
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Justin: Okay. So I guess the three of them own it together. (27:03):
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Jay: Yeah. (27:07):
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Justin: And then Bibframe is Library of Congress, Stanford, UPenn, and U of Alberta (27:07):
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Justin: have adopted, or have been pushing Bibframe and are involved in it. (27:12):
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Jay: That's like it. (27:17):
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Justin: Basically so the argument in (27:19):
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Justin: the bit premise die papers is that (27:23):
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Justin: the works expressions manifestation items is (27:26):
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Justin: kind of absurd probably always was yeah users have record-based thinking and (27:29):
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Justin: which is like they think in a mark-like way so they think kind of like a card (27:33):
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Justin: catalog which is they want a record with a single resource and bib frame turns (27:38):
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Justin: it into a cloud of entities and relationships between them. (27:44):
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Jay: Right, which is why it's so annoying for music. (27:48):
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Justin: Right. So people don't really think about it that way. They think more like, (27:50):
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Justin: okay, this item, this record represents this item, and here's the information (27:54):
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Justin: about that item, and it's all one thing. (28:00):
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Justin: So most users don't have a need for those conceptual manifestations. (28:03):
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Justin: Kind of the only reason that I ever understood was the purpose of it was to (28:08):
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Justin: say like, well, this particular item is in this library and this item's in another one. (28:12):
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Justin: And if you wanted to know like where every single version of this edition of (28:17):
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Justin: Hamlet was, then you could find all the connected libraries that have this exact edition. (28:21):
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Justin: And you could find every single one that has how many copies of it. (28:26):
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Justin: But like who, who needs that information? You just need to know what's at your library. (28:30):
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Jay: Whereas like, I would argue that like one of (28:34):
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Jay: the use cases for this that would make sense weirdly is (28:37):
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Jay: where holds are concerned so (28:41):
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Jay: like this just came up at my library like last week (28:45):
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Jay: where there was some hot new book that won (28:48):
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Jay: a stupid award or something and we had to (28:51):
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Jay: buy a bunch of copies of it from a local bookstore because it was so popular (28:54):
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Jay: that it was on back order through our suppliers right and they gave us a paperback (29:00):
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Jay: instead of a hardcover and we had already hardcovers of it and the paperback (29:05):
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Jay: sometimes you'll see in OCLC, (29:12):
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Jay: a record, as long as it's the same page numbers. (29:14):
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Jay: And as long as it's not different editions will include the hardcover and the (29:19):
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Jay: paperback as one record and we'll just list both ISBNs with this is the hardback (29:22):
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Jay: ISBN, this is the paperback ISBN, right? (29:27):
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Jay: If they're not different editions they can share the same thing as long as the (29:29):
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Jay: pagination is not wildly different, which it shouldn't be (29:34):
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Jay: This one said in it both first paperback edition and first hardcover edition. (29:37):
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Jay: It had both edition statements in the thing. (29:44):
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Jay: And we had found that another library had made a record for this paperback one. (29:48):
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Jay: And we were like, if we did that, if we used that record and brought it in, (29:54):
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Jay: this would not help our holds situation. (29:59):
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Jay: Because we couldn't then use these to fulfill the holds. (30:02):
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Jay: On the other one and there's a lot of fucking holds (30:07):
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Jay: on that other one and we bought a lot of these (30:10):
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Jay: so we're like you know what it's the same page like (30:13):
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Jay: fuck it we're just putting it on our hardcover one because we can't differentiate (30:16):
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Jay: between paperback and hardcover to fulfill holds right like unless someone like (30:22):
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Jay: has a fucking reason but for this it's like we don't give them make that choice. (30:28):
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Jay: So if they were actually separate editions and separate records and everything, (30:33):
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Jay: then we couldn't do that. (30:38):
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Jay: But yeah, holds are like ILL. I feel like this is where this makes sense. (30:40):
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Jay: Sadie, were you going to say something? (30:45):
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Sadie: Yeah, I was going to ask, how do you treat large print editions different from that? (30:46):
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Sadie: Because that is one use case that I see people being like no i want this very specific like well. (30:53):
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Jay: That's a separate edition. (30:59):
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Sadie: It's just considered a separate edition okay i think (31:00):
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Sadie: so yeah i've seen very similar things happen (31:03):
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Sadie: in like that's a pretty i think perennial public (31:06):
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Sadie: library deal is like which ones are (31:09):
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Sadie: going to satisfy which holds so people don't get pissed off (31:12):
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Sadie: or when is it the last copy of something when you (31:15):
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Sadie: actually have like five hardbacks still left but you're out of paperbacks (31:18):
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Sadie: like so is it the last copy or is it the not last (31:21):
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Sadie: copy kind of kind of thing so but there (31:24):
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Sadie: are people who are like no i want the heart back and (31:27):
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Sadie: we say we don't care yeah and and you kind (31:30):
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Sadie: of have to just make yeah the judgment call on that like oops sorry (31:32):
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Sadie: you get what you get when it's super popular when it calms down you can probably (31:35):
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Sadie: have a better chance at what the exact physical manifestation you want but yeah (31:39):
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Sadie: no i just large print is one of those things that come also comes up in discussions (31:45):
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Sadie: like this so but yeah it's a separate edition makes sense. (31:49):
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Jay: But would academic librarians have thought of that? (31:54):
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Sadie: No, that's the other thing. Yeah. (31:57):
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Jay: And that is my main criticism with these pieces, is they are so firmly rooted (32:00):
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Jay: in academic library thinking, of which I used to be guilty because I did not (32:06):
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Jay: yet work in public libraries. (32:11):
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Jay: But now that I have been on the other, I have crossed the Rubicon or whatever the fuck. (32:13):
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Jay: I've noticed some shit now. I'm like, oh, like these people don't think about anything. (32:19):
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Jay: And to be fair, not a lot of public libraries do their own cataloging anymore. (32:24):
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Jay: They either buy them from Ingram or Baker and Taylor already cataloged or there's (32:28):
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Jay: consortium like cataloging consortiums that'll do it. (32:34):
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Jay: But if you do have catalogers at your library, like still like this is a use case. (32:37):
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Jay: And like, I feel like this entire discussion has been dominated by academic librarians. (32:43):
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Jay: And that's that's one such instance where I'm like, ha ha, then more will come (32:48):
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Jay: up. Not least the fact, and I will reveal my big trump card at the end, (32:53):
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Jay: that I put at the end of the notes. (32:57):
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Jay: But, yeah. the next thing bullet (32:59):
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Jay: point though is the labor costs which i think is (33:02):
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Jay: the real actual issue here in that (33:05):
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Jay: like i mean to quote like the (33:08):
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Jay: guiding principle or whatever that justin brought out i'm (33:11):
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Jay: making things easier for computers at the expense of people but that's not really (33:14):
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Jay: a labor cost thing that's just we're changing the way that we frame what this (33:19):
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Jay: is actually for the real labor cost is like the IMLS grants or whatever for (33:24):
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Jay: implementing RDA aren't existing anymore. (33:30):
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Jay: RDA costs money to subscribe to, and not every library can afford that. And also... (33:33):
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Jay: This is, I think, is the other actual, actual, actual problem, (33:38):
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Jay: is we don't pay for professional development and continuing education. (33:42):
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Jay: And catalogers don't leave their fucking jobs ever. (33:45):
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Jay: And so the only people who are learning RDA are library school students who (33:49):
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Jay: then can't get jobs in cataloging if they don't already have experience in cataloging. (33:55):
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Jay: And then how do they get experience in cataloging? (34:00):
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Jay: But there just aren't jobs doing cataloging. (34:02):
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Jay: And if there are, they don't pay shit or they expect you to know their specific (34:06):
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Jay: ILS or to know how to already do all of this shit because they will not pay (34:11):
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Jay: to teach it to you or to train you or anything like that. (34:18):
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Jay: And I think that's the real labor cost here is we aren't training people who (34:22):
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Jay: are already in jobs how to learn this stuff. (34:26):
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Jay: Because shit does evolve. Shit does change. (34:29):
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Jay: And I think sometimes people are just being sticks in the fucking mud. (34:33):
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Jay: But part of that is that they're not being taught and paid to learn how this (34:36):
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Jay: works or to be part of changing it. (34:43):
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Jay: And I think that's one of the actual labor costs here. like just teach people (34:46):
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Jay: OG RDA and then also make it free or like a book you can buy which I think it (34:51):
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Jay: can be a book you could buy but still by. (34:59):
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Justin: Itself wouldn't get people into using BibFrame because the labor. (35:03):
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Jay: Costs yeah. (35:08):
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Justin: Getting over to BibFrame has dubious benefits and it requires recataloging pretty much everything. (35:10):
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Justin: And there's already so much cataloging work that needs to be done to make things discoverable. (35:19):
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Justin: So yeah, the thing I always bring up is (35:26):
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Justin: It's a paper, it's called More Product, Less Process, and it's about the fact (35:28):
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Justin: that people are over-describing things in special collections, (35:33):
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Justin: and then most special collections still have items that never get cataloged (35:37):
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Justin: at all, so no one knows that they exist. (35:41):
undefined

Justin: So it's better to just have a minimalist catalog record or a minimalist finding (35:44):
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Justin: aid rather than nothing, because if it's nothing, no one knows that it exists, (35:50):
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Justin: probably not even the librarians. (35:56):
undefined

Justin: So, I mean, I remember one time we were looking for something and it was at (35:58):
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Justin: the bottom of like a pile on a bookshelf that had like just a ton of like postcards (36:02):
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Justin: and newspapers on top of it. (36:10):
undefined

Justin: And it was like really important donor material that we couldn't find. (36:12):
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Justin: And my supervisor was the kind of guy who just like piles stuff on his desk like a mile high. (36:17):
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Justin: So it ended up on the bottom of one of his piles. (36:23):
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Jay: Yeah, like one of the core texts, my sort of shaping ethos as a cataloger is (36:26):
undefined

Jay: called Making Keywords Work, (36:33):
undefined

Jay: which makes the argument that like really rich catalog records are good or know (36:35):
undefined

Jay: that subject headings are still valuable in a keyword searching environment (36:41):
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Jay: because we don't make artisanal records. (36:46):
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Jay: The main thing that keyword searches are pulling from (36:49):
undefined

Jay: are just subject headings still and so (36:52):
undefined

Jay: doing subject authority work is still important (36:55):
undefined

Jay: for that reason you have to make the keywords work not that you have to make (36:58):
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Jay: artisanal records but if a keyword search is going to work and you don't have (37:02):
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Jay: all this full text to be pulling from it has to pull from somewhere so like (37:07):
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Jay: thinking about your access points is what's actually important for. (37:12):
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Justin: Discovery or just relying on (37:16):
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Justin: a shared vocabulary so like the paper (37:20):
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Justin: i wrote about keywords and archaeoornithology paper with (37:23):
undefined

Justin: a with a biology professor it was because basically (37:26):
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Justin: this subgroup of scientists needed to (37:29):
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Justin: come to an agreement on what they were calling things and (37:32):
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Justin: they needed their own vocabulary and to start tagging their (37:36):
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Justin: papers with it so they could find each other's work and (37:39):
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Justin: stick to it so they needed they needed a (37:42):
undefined

Justin: common vocabulary and they needed to implement it in (37:45):
undefined

Justin: the keywords for their papers when they submitted authors supplied keywords (37:48):
undefined

Justin: yeah so yeah that was another reason why i had to accept that linked up with (37:51):
undefined

Justin: data is not a good idea because unless we had state-sponsored jobs to clean (37:57):
undefined

Justin: metadata around the world all day which would be good it would be a good make (38:02):
undefined

Justin: work job if we needed full employment, (38:06):
undefined

Justin: but there's probably other things we could ask people to do like rake forest debris and (38:08):
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Justin: do others you know wpa kind of jobs rather than. (38:13):
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Jay: Converting the world. (38:17):
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Justin: To bib frame. (38:18):
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Jay: Yeah i mean and that's and again like this is bib frame must die but actually (38:19):
undefined

Jay: it's argument against rda. (38:24):
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Jay: In a listserv i'm in and i won't (38:26):
undefined

Jay: say who's had a one of the arguments against rda that (38:29):
undefined

Jay: this person who i think is correct in all (38:32):
undefined

Jay: things said that like one (38:35):
undefined

Jay: of the main problems with rda or that there's the (38:38):
undefined

Jay: main problem with rda again is that it like costs money and so (38:41):
undefined

Jay: this is a class issue like again not all (38:44):
undefined

Jay: libraries can afford it but also because then (38:47):
undefined

Jay: not all libraries can afford to use it it causes (38:50):
undefined

Jay: disparities amongst records so not (38:53):
undefined

Jay: all libraries are cataloging to the same standard and (38:55):
undefined

Jay: this is ignoring the fact that like rare books has its (38:58):
undefined

Jay: own bullshit standards that it follows right like (39:01):
undefined

Jay: you'll see like dcrm or dcrb (39:04):
undefined

Jay: whatever like records in worldcat basically but (39:07):
undefined

Jay: that like my catalog has a acr2 and (39:11):
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Jay: rda in it and we have been instructed like for time's sake not to correct a (39:14):
undefined

Jay: acr2 records to be rda compliant unless we're already doing a lot of work to (39:20):
undefined

Jay: the record like if we're already there okay make the changes but if not just (39:25):
undefined

Jay: like fucking leave it because it still works. (39:30):
undefined

Jay: But because between ACR2 and RDA, (39:32):
undefined

Jay: there are some differences in how you approach describing things, (39:35):
undefined

Jay: this then causes inconsistencies and disparities between places, (39:40):
undefined

Jay: including indexing issues. (39:45):
undefined

Jay: If you correct a record in WorldCat. (39:47):
undefined

Jay: To be RDA compliant, and this changes the title, then that causes a discrepancy (39:51):
undefined

Jay: between that record and then every library who uses that record, right? (39:57):
undefined

Jay: Which could be an API issue. It could be like there's all sorts of issues that (40:03):
undefined

Jay: this could cause or upstream if it gets pushed to them and stuff, right? (40:08):
undefined

Jay: So that was one of the main arguments with RDA is that it causes messy metadata (40:12):
undefined

Jay: because not everyone can afford or understand of. (40:18):
undefined

Jay: Including Library of Congress. They don't even officially, they haven't officially adopted RDA. (40:21):
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Jay: They still see those 260s everywhere and they piss me off. I'm like, So. (40:26):
undefined

Justin: One of the points this article makes is that discovery layers already do a lot (40:30):
undefined

Justin: of what we would want BibFrame to do, which is to pull in data that is out in (40:34):
undefined

Justin: the open web, I guess, or in other places. (40:40):
undefined

Justin: The point that he makes is that mark data is far less important than full text (40:43):
undefined

Justin: and other sources of indexable data. (40:48):
undefined

Justin: 80% of all records displayed in search results come from non-Mark records, (40:50):
undefined

Justin: even though non-Mark records are only 60% of the database. (40:54):
undefined

Justin: And I grabbed that study and I threw that in the notes, but I didn't have time to read it. (40:59):
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Jay: And I would say that's an academic library. (41:04):
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Justin: Discovery writ large happens elsewhere, either in discovery layers or in Google or on the open web. (41:06):
undefined

Justin: And also I would say a lot of people either, especially in academic libraries (41:11):
undefined

Justin: that use IP authentication, never even really go through the library because (41:16):
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Justin: they're already IP authenticated on campus or on the VPN. (41:21):
undefined

Justin: So a lot of people don't really know how to use our discovery layer when they're (41:25):
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Justin: off campus to get access to things or just the way that (41:29):
undefined

Justin: primo is supposed to work is it like tracks your cookies (41:34):
undefined

Justin: or something and keeps you logged in i don't really understand (41:37):
undefined

Justin: it but it's supposed to keep your browser logged in yeah supposed (41:40):
undefined

Justin: to keep your browser logged in so that you don't have to keep logging (41:43):
undefined

Justin: in so you don't even notice when you're using your library subscription (41:46):
undefined

Justin: sometimes and also the same thing where google scholar will say your library (41:50):
undefined

Justin: has this because you set it to your library and then it'll take you straight (41:54):
undefined

Justin: to your library's copy of that article and authenticate you in which is you (41:57):
undefined

Justin: know a problem i always had when I was working my first job because all of our (42:01):
undefined

Justin: students were off-campus commuters and did a lot of their work off-campus. (42:04):
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Justin: And so I always had to make sure that the proxy was in the URLs that we shared (42:09):
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Justin: out because that's what forces them to log in when they're off-campus. (42:13):
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Justin: And so I also had to start teaching people that again in 2020 when people were (42:20):
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Justin: off-campus for the first time and saying, (42:23):
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Justin: okay, you really need to click the share button because that's going to inject (42:26):
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Justin: our proxy into the link before you share it out to your students because they're (42:30):
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Justin: going to ask you, why can't I read this? (42:34):
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Justin: So when you're sharing something from the library, get the share button because (42:36):
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Justin: that's going to throw the little special URL that's going to tell it you need to log in. (42:39):
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Jay: You should be doing that anyway because not all library authentication is IP-based. (42:44):
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Justin: Yeah, I know you should, but I'm just saying use your behavior. (42:49):
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Jay: Yeah. (42:52):
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Justin: We also have LibKey, which is, I don't know how many people use it, (42:52):
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Justin: but it works really well. (42:56):
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Justin: And of course on Paywall, If you're logged in, it will shine green when you (42:58):
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Justin: have access to it. So it'll take you straight to the PDF with one click. (43:03):
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Justin: So even if you do work at an academic library and have access and don't need (43:07):
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Justin: them paywall that much, it still is the easiest way to get a one click PDF because (43:12):
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Justin: it'll just show up as green. (43:16):
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Justin: And you can just click and go straight to the PDF. So you don't have to click around five times. (43:18):
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Jay: Yeah. Yeah, which like, again, my main argument, my main arguments here are (43:22):
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Jay: that that's still so academic focused because the majority, because even the (43:27):
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Jay: public library where I work uses a discovery layer. (43:32):
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Jay: It's a public library discovery layer called BiblioCommons. (43:36):
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Jay: And there are other public libraries that use it and it will bring in Hoopla (43:40):
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Jay: stuff and Libby stuff and other. (43:44):
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Jay: I don't think we have it set up so that articles show up in it. (43:48):
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Jay: But it also is like what our website backend is. (43:51):
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Jay: So like reading lists will show up in your search results, for example. (43:55):
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Jay: But that discovery layer is powered by the fact that like all of our like Hoopla (44:01):
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Jay: stuff is also Mark records in our ILS, right? (44:05):
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Jay: So all of our discovery layer is Mark results. (44:11):
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Jay: Unlike in academic libraries where (44:16):
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Jay: it's all just database results book (44:19):
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Jay: reviews public libraries even if yeah in public libraries even (44:23):
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Jay: if even if they have like ebooks (44:26):
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Jay: and stuff like a lot of it is still (44:30):
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Jay: going to be physical materials or and (44:33):
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Jay: or mark even in a discovery layer environment so (44:37):
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Jay: i don't and also with discovery layers like bringing stuff from outside the (44:40):
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Jay: web someone has to set that up it's not going to bring in google search results (44:45):
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Jay: and it's also not going to expose your stuff elsewhere stuff has to have an (44:49):
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Jay: oai feed or be part of some community. (44:54):
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Jay: Content zone or whatever that you have to turn on it's a pain in the fucking (44:59):
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Jay: ass to Because I've had to do it in two separate discovery layers to set up (45:04):
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Jay: all of the external shit. And it's a pain in the ass. (45:10):
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Jay: Proprietary ones don't play nice. Primo doesn't play well with EBSCO and vice (45:14):
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Jay: versa. EBSCO doesn't play well with ProQuest. (45:19):
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Jay: WMS, in theory, plays nice with all of them because it is provider neutral in (45:22):
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Jay: theory. But it doesn't have all the databases in there. (45:27):
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Jay: So I don't even I don't think discovery layers and bib and bib frame like I (45:31):
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Jay: don't even think that's a correct comparison to be making. (45:36):
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Jay: To be honest, like I don't discovery layers aren't about connection. (45:39):
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Jay: Discovery layers are about just putting everything in one place, (45:45):
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Jay: but not about this sort of like linked environment where things connect to other (45:48):
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Jay: things. And like, yeah, I don't know. (45:53):
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Jay: So I just like don't even agree with bringing that argument fundamentally. (45:56):
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Jay: Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. (46:01):
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Jay: Are we looking through the rest of the bullet notes? (46:06):
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Justin: Another thing the articles bring up is the duopoly problem. (46:09):
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Justin: So the creation and maintenance of descriptive and authorities metadata in such (46:13):
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Justin: an environment, a duopoly, is more challenging than it was. (46:19):
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Justin: Ownership and control of collections have been shifted from libraries in the (46:24):
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Justin: print age to multinational corporations. (46:27):
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Justin: Does it make sense to overhaul the practice of cataloging in such a way that (46:30):
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Justin: only minimally affects the system? (46:33):
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Justin: And he's talking particularly about big e-book collections in which collections (46:35):
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Justin: shift in and out of your discovery layer and your collections that you own because (46:40):
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Justin: they are big packages of e-books. (46:45):
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Justin: So I go to buy e-books sometimes and we already have the book, (46:48):
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Justin: even if it just came out this year. (46:52):
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Justin: So when I'm selecting for the sciences, it's actually very hard for me to spend (46:53):
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Justin: my money because we usually have books pretty much automatically from the point (46:57):
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Justin: in which they're published because we get them in big databases. (47:02):
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Justin: So I have to go looking for books about teaching science or critiques of the (47:06):
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Justin: field and stuff that isn't pushed out by Rutledge or Elsevier or any of the (47:13):
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Justin: main publishers that we get big bundles from. (47:17):
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Justin: So part of it is... (47:20):
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Justin: And it's, I guess, the idea of having, I didn't copy these notes over very well, (47:22):
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Justin: but it was, it's going to be very difficult to convince these companies to switch (47:27):
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Justin: over to a linked data model, which benefits everyone minimally. (47:33):
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Justin: And Jay has a note that this is public focused, public libraries still buy a ton of materials. (47:37):
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Justin: In the paper, he talks about how everything is basically just a strip mall, (47:42):
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Justin: like everyone's got the same books. (47:46):
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Justin: Collections aren't unique. (47:49):
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Jay: I still disagree with that. (47:50):
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Justin: Yeah, there's a particular part about special collections, which are physical (47:51):
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Justin: assets that are genuinely unique. (47:56):
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Justin: And it's also the ones that BibFrame are least suited to describe because it (47:59):
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Justin: was conceived to serve an interconnected online world rather than an analog (48:05):
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Justin: one. So the data is too homogenous. (48:09):
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Jay: I still disagree with that, though. Academic libraries might all have the same (48:11):
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Jay: collections because they all subscribe to the same databases, (48:17):
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Jay: but even that's not true because some universities can't afford to subscribe (48:21):
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Jay: to all of the databases, and some might just have only JSTOR or might just have this other thing. (48:26):
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Jay: So like with books, maybe that makes sense for academic libraries. (48:32):
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Jay: A lot of them do have exactly the same thing. Public libraries, (48:37):
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Jay: even if there's a lot of overlap, they're still, at least for physical materials, (48:41):
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Jay: like largely curated. There are still collection development librarians. (48:46):
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Jay: And when I was at the Gerber Hart, for example, all of those were donation-based, (48:51):
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Jay: and that included a lot of self-published authors, which academic or public (48:57):
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Jay: libraries will collect a lot of self-published stuff, actually. (49:02):
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Jay: And, you know, those get catalog records or like independent publishers. (49:06):
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Jay: So like, I also just disagree with, I think this argument is still so academic (49:12):
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Jay: focused, like the homogeneity of connection. (49:18):
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Jay: Like it's, then what's the point of WorldCat if not to see how collections differ (49:21):
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Jay: between libraries if we all have the same thing? Like, you know, (49:26):
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Jay: like, I don't know, like, I didn't understand this argument. (49:31):
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Jay: And also, a special collection, there are things in my library, (49:34):
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Jay: which probably should be in special collections, but which aren't, (49:39):
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Jay: because a curator hasn't gone that special and put it in the special collection. (49:43):
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Jay: But they're very rare, quote unquote, materials that aren't in special collections. (49:47):
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Jay: So don't get cataloged as such. (49:52):
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Jay: Special collections is a marketing term. (49:56):
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Jay: Public libraries, and not even just mine, public libraries have like community materials, right? (49:59):
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Jay: They could be the only library in the world that has that thing. (50:06):
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Jay: Special collections is a marketing term. is a self-published (50:10):
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Jay: romance novel that a patron printed out (50:14):
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Jay: like got published and now their public library has it (50:17):
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Jay: and maybe that's the only library is that not a rare book like (50:19):
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Jay: and that's cataloged according to rda and not whatever (50:22):
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Jay: rare book thing that rare book (50:26):
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Jay: catalogers use where they over explain the shit out of (50:28):
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Jay: everything like i i just (50:31):
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Jay: i don't like this argument and i think it's very got blinders on to the realities (50:34):
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Jay: of how things get described and why things might be in special collections versus (50:39):
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Jay: not also our special collections we have shit that other libraries have not (50:44):
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Jay: everything in a special collections is unique yeah. (50:49):
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Justin: Well i think the whole point is he's talking about distinct collections of the physical ones and so. (50:51):
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Jay: Not even with special collections, (50:57):
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Jay: like yeah a lot of libraries have like (50:59):
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Jay: overlap but that doesn't mean every single (51:02):
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Jay: library if every library had all the same exact shit we (51:05):
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Jay: wouldn't need interlibrary loan even among (51:08):
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Jay: academic libraries you know if it was just special (51:11):
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Jay: collections that was the unique thing which doesn't get interlibrary (51:15):
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Jay: loan you know i just like didn't understand this (51:18):
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Jay: argument and i just thought it was like to (51:21):
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Jay: me this gets as like theory brained as (51:24):
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Jay: this art this article is trying to argue against it's (51:28):
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Jay: like oh rda was is conceptually about (51:31):
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Jay: linking digital materials and unique (51:34):
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Jay: whatever but we're all too fucking homogenous now (51:38):
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Jay: and the only distinct things are physical i was like shut up like this doesn't (51:41):
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Jay: this isn't making your point about why bib frame is bad this is a like i don't (51:46):
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Jay: know a like a retention policy problem this is a collection development argument. (51:52):
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Jay: This is a like, let us own things or curate our own ebooks and articles argument. (51:58):
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Jay: Like this is unrelated to a metadata standard, I think. (52:05):
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Justin: Yeah, I think the second article has a hard time connecting it back to BibFrame. (52:11):
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Justin: I think it's focused on why RDA data doesn't work with all of the proprietary (52:16):
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Justin: data that we get from our ebook collections. I think that's the connection there. (52:23):
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Jay: Which like with rda like if you look at an aacr2 mark record and an rda mark (52:28):
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Jay: record do you want to know what the difference is the main big difference it's (52:37):
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Jay: the 260 field it's the main one i swear to god that's the main thing for publishing information. (52:41):
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Jay: Aacr2 is a 260 and lumps it all together into one thing including copyright (52:48):
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Jay: info and the 264 has all these stupid fucking second indicators that indicate (52:53):
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Jay: whether it's publication or manufacture or copyright or I forget the fourth one. I don't care. (52:58):
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Jay: Because you only ever use one of four unless you're a nerd. (53:04):
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Jay: Four is just for copyright. That's literally all it's for. (53:07):
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Jay: And that's like the main difference. That and the abbreviations. (53:10):
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Jay: And like the article makes this point that most libraries who say they are doing RDA, (53:14):
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Jay: what that means is that they have put the 336, 7, and 8 in their records, (53:18):
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Jay: which is like automatic and OCLC now. (53:24):
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Jay: And like also that they do a 264 field instead of a 260 field. (53:26):
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Jay: That's like it. That is the big difference between RDA and ACR2. (53:32):
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Jay: Or you put like a subfield E author (53:37):
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Jay: in your 100 field and a subfield e editor in (53:42):
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Jay: your 700 field or whatever like you say how (53:45):
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Jay: the person like what relationship the person has to (53:48):
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Jay: the thing being described did this person write it did (53:51):
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Jay: they illustrate it i think that's nice i like (53:54):
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Jay: that i think we should keep that that's good actually that's so fucking i'm (53:57):
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Jay: so annoyed at people who get mad at this even though i agree with them but they're (54:03):
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Jay: they're fucking stupid nerds there's no difference it's all mixed in. (54:08):
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Jay: It's all mixed together this no (54:16):
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Jay: literally this was going to be one of the points and one day maybe (54:18):
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Jay: i'll write this the erotics of metadata article i want to (54:21):
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Jay: write we're talking about the main reason why i don't like doubling cores because (54:24):
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Jay: i think it's boring and doesn't look good even though i actually (54:27):
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Jay: also have structural issues with it i just i don't (54:30):
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Jay: like that it doesn't nest and i like nested xml (54:33):
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Jay: records and like aesthetically i (54:36):
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Jay: don't like dublin core but i made the argument about like (54:40):
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Jay: the pleasure of cataloging and that most people (54:42):
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Jay: their their their gripe with rda is an aesthetic one (54:46):
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Jay: because they don't like it because it's not fun for them (54:49):
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Jay: or they don't understand it or it makes them feel stupid like outside (54:52):
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Jay: of the labor thing and the money thing most catalogers probably (54:55):
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Jay: aren't thinking of that most are just like i don't understand what (54:58):
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Jay: a gnomon is or i don't understand what like (55:01):
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Jay: an entity is like i don't know what all (55:05):
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Jay: the theory is and like why would they right and (55:09):
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Jay: especially in official the official rda is just like incomprehensible it's stupid (55:12):
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Jay: it's it's dumb it's bad but that like when i tried looking up like actual tests (55:17):
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Jay: of like rda versus acr2 for like user studies there weren't any right which (55:24):
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Jay: should tell you something. (55:30):
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Jay: But like, also these people weren't like making that argument. (55:31):
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Jay: They weren't thinking about like, well, is this better for the way that patrons (55:35):
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Jay: search or not? It was just, I don't like it. (55:38):
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Jay: I think this is bad. Which like, there is something to be said for authority, right? And expertise. (55:40):
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Jay: But like, I was like, the main reason people don't like RDA is because it's (55:45):
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Jay: not fun for them personally. (55:49):
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Jay: If you just like take your blinders off and you go, what (55:51):
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Jay: if I just changes to 62 to 264 and then (55:54):
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Jay: change the second indicator congratulations it's rda (55:57):
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Jay: now basically i know that's grossly oversimplifying it (56:00):
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Jay: but that is in most libraries that is the way that people interact with rda (56:03):
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Jay: is a 260 versus a 264 and then some like relationship designators i'm not even (56:08):
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Jay: making this up damn it i kind of love. (56:15):
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Sadie: That you're on the public side of the public library side of things now, Jay. (56:22):
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Jay: I'm so spicy now. I'm like these fucking bourgeois. (56:25):
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Justin: You're that guy in... (56:32):
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Justin: In Party Girl. (56:35):
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Jay: Oh, God, I am. (56:36):
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Justin: When they're sitting there talking about, do you go public or academic? (56:38):
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Jay: Howard doesn't approve of academia. He thinks it's for wimps. It is. Yeah. (56:41):
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Jay: No, I was talking with my roommate about that because he loves that movie. (56:46):
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Jay: And he showed it to one of his boyfriends. (56:49):
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Jay: And I was like, oh, yeah, the part where they're at the table, (56:52):
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Jay: like, bitching about public libraries versus academic libraries. (56:54):
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Jay: And I'm like, I understand the public people now. (56:58):
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Jay: Like, they're right. (57:02):
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Jay: Academic librarians are up their own asses i (57:05):
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Jay: i i was part of the problem but i (57:08):
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Jay: mean it is true that most of the original cataloging at (57:11):
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Jay: scale that gets done is academic libraries especially at like you know fucking (57:14):
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Jay: princeton or yale or upenn or university of washington like even outside of (57:20):
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Jay: special collections like that's where you're gonna get a lot of like really artisanal it, but, (57:27):
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Jay: and not every public, again, some public libraries don't even have cataloguers. (57:33):
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Jay: It's done at a consortial level, or they just buy everything pre-catalogued. (57:38):
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Jay: Like, it's true that, you know, most of the cataloging labor that happens in (57:43):
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Jay: this country is probably happening at academic libraries, at least for people (57:49):
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Jay: who might be doing like original cataloging, right? (57:53):
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Jay: Or like more advanced copy cataloging. (57:56):
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Jay: That's going to be happening in academic libraries. (57:59):
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Jay: But, still, people use libraries at public libraries, damn it. (58:02):
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Jay: Me and Sadie are going to take over the podcast from you, Justin. (58:09):
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Justin: Well, it's, I mean, when I worked at my first university, we had no physical (58:13):
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Justin: acquisitions because we didn't have any money for them, so... (58:18):
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Justin: The library was so starved that it was really just evidence-based acquisitions, (58:22):
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Justin: and it was all just knowledge-based data that flowed in and flowed out. (58:26):
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Justin: So, you know, I would talk to people at bigger universities and say, (58:30):
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Justin: like, you know, you could run a library without catalogers because you just (58:33):
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Justin: run it on a shoestring and everything just comes to you from the vendors. (58:38):
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Justin: And they, like, didn't believe me. And I was like, I don't know. (58:42):
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Justin: And then I know a lot of big universities that, like, don't have catalogers. (58:45):
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Justin: And so it's like a you know it was (58:49):
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Justin: i was trying to explain like the precarity of their position but (58:52):
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Justin: they just got mad at me like i was saying their job didn't matter i (58:55):
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Justin: was like no it does it's just that like you like you (58:58):
undefined

Justin: can get by without it if you are like small enough (59:01):
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Justin: if you're big you have to have a cataloger but if (59:04):
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Justin: you're like a small community college like they might (59:07):
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Justin: not have one and i i don't know i (59:10):
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Justin: think that was kind of the point they was making in the second article about (59:13):
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Justin: we don't own our data and so like why make it (59:16):
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Justin: linked open data because i think he was saying like why (59:19):
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Justin: why fix mark because like why do (59:22):
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Justin: we need our data to be linked and open in this ecosystem where it's dominated (59:24):
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Justin: by two companies so i think that was the connection he was trying to make because (59:28):
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Justin: i wanted to like get that point out because i didn't want to like be unfair (59:32):
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Justin: to this article it was just i was trying to like i think it's not quite clear (59:36):
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Justin: what the connection is in that one i think that one's kind of the weaker part (59:39):
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Justin: of his argument where it just kind of right. (59:42):
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Jay: And I agree with that point, like, especially like, again, I think the argument (59:44):
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Jay: is beyond, it's not a bib frame. (59:49):
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Jay: It's like the problem isn't necessarily bib frame. The problem isn't, (59:52):
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Jay: oh, because some of the problem is RDA. (59:57):
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Jay: But the problem is more so like, because like, I feel like, you know, (59:59):
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Jay: bib frame isn't like there are other link data on there are other like link (01:00:04):
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Jay: data ontologies like used in libraries or like schemas. and stuff like (01:00:09):
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Jay: It's not like completely unheard of. (01:00:16):
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Jay: It's just that most of it's not describing stuff you would use Mark records (01:00:19):
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Jay: for. Most of it is in digital library spaces. (01:00:23):
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Jay: Again, so like digitized special collections and digitized archives, (01:00:27):
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Jay: but not like Tom Clancy novels. (01:00:30):
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Jay: Bibframe is for Tom Clancy novels, you know, like Bibframe is meant to replace Mark. (01:00:33):
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Jay: Bibframe is meant to replace cataloging and not metadata. (01:00:39):
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Jay: That distinction, kind of. and then they make (01:00:43):
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Jay: everything bib frame but yeah like i agree with (01:00:46):
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Jay: like i think bib frame is a i used to be like rooting and tooting for bib frame (01:00:49):
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Jay: i was like yeah this sounds like cool this sounds like a cool idea this sounds (01:00:54):
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Jay: good like sure why not fuck it let's go i was for it but like it was being developed (01:00:57):
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Jay: by like lc or something and then got it's like a private company now or something. (01:01:03):
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Jay: And so just like the development of it got put (01:01:08):
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Jay: into private hands i think or corporate hands or (01:01:11):
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Jay: something and i just think it's a failed project that (01:01:13):
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Jay: took too long and didn't evolve at (01:01:16):
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Jay: the speed of information retrieval because again (01:01:20):
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Jay: like i said in europe they were using linked data for fucking ever i mean it (01:01:23):
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Jay: was fine like that's what i was always taught like european digital libraries (01:01:26):
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Jay: were ahead of the game in a way that we just never did over here like i don't (01:01:30):
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Jay: i think what the actual problems are in this article in these articles if we can like summarize them, (01:01:34):
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Jay: is like the cost, which is around like the cost of like RDA. (01:01:43):
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Jay: Like if we're going to use RDA, it should not be a closed standard. (01:01:49):
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Jay: It should not be a proprietary standard. (01:01:52):
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Jay: It should be open so that all of the libraries can use it. And it shouldn't be incomprehensible. (01:01:54):
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Jay: It's incomprehensible right now. It's pretty fucking dumb. (01:02:00):
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Justin: And there is the open rules for cataloging out there. People have tried to make. (01:02:04):
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Jay: Yes, but I feel like it's (01:02:08):
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Jay: going to be hard for a library to make an (01:02:11):
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Jay: argument to actually use it like we would (01:02:14):
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Jay: we would need to like all as a profession be like reusing this now is how do (01:02:17):
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Jay: you code for it right unless it's basically replicating rda and then i feel (01:02:23):
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Jay: like the other problem is like bib frame and And RDA and like all of these standards, (01:02:28):
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Jay: not just that they left out public librarians and stuff like in their conception, (01:02:36):
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Jay: but they just like left out most librarians when they were being developed. (01:02:42):
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Jay: Like like input from them and everything like (01:02:47):
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Jay: the majority of the profession was not part (01:02:50):
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Jay: of creating these standards or (01:02:53):
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Jay: saying we're going with this now and so like of course like it's not going to (01:02:56):
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Jay: be in touch with the way that people actually search because people who work (01:03:02):
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Jay: with patrons didn't develop it you know like that that's why it's so theory (01:03:05):
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Jay: and conceptual without being tied to anything. (01:03:10):
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Jay: It's not grounded at all. To me, it feels like when people, like, (01:03:14):
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Jay: you have to add a fancy computer thing in order for people to care about it anymore. (01:03:20):
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Jay: We saw this with the digital humanities, which I like, but still. (01:03:24):
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Jay: And then now we're seeing it with AI, you have to add in the new computer shiny (01:03:27):
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Jay: to get money. I feel like that's what just this whole endeavor was. (01:03:30):
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Jay: I feel like these things, like BibFrame and RDA and all this, (01:03:36):
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Jay: they aren't necessarily the problem, their symptoms of a problem. (01:03:40):
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Jay: I feel like these articles are trying to get at. But like I make in my fucking (01:03:44):
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Jay: notes, why aren't we also mad at OCLC? (01:03:48):
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Jay: I know some of us are, but they're also gatekeeping. (01:03:52):
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Jay: You got to pay them to use their MARC records, right? You got to pay them to be in WorldCat. (01:03:55):
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Jay: That gate keeps like 90% of interlibrary loan, no matter which sort of method (01:04:01):
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Jay: of interlibrary loan you're doing. (01:04:06):
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Jay: If you're not a fucking OCLC member, they're too fucking bad, I guess. (01:04:07):
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Jay: Like at least you can access like mark and then (01:04:11):
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Jay: the oclc sort of explanation of mark (01:04:14):
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Jay: like for free and i actually think their explanation is better (01:04:17):
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Jay: than library of congress's like i prefer the oclc bib formats (01:04:20):
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Jay: website over the mark 21 website tbh (01:04:23):
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Jay: but like you still gotta pay oclc if (01:04:26):
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Jay: you want because like there are web browser extensions (01:04:30):
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Jay: for like amazon and shit or even (01:04:33):
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Jay: like what do you think google or whatever or (01:04:36):
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Jay: any of these things is pulling from for the little widgets that (01:04:39):
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Jay: are like oh you're trying to buy this book on amazon but like your library (01:04:43):
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Jay: has it or if you're in goodreads it's like find this in (01:04:46):
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Jay: the library or like any of that shit it's just like worldcat (01:04:49):
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Jay: data that's all that is that's just searching worldcat (01:04:52):
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Jay: that's what that's all we want for bibframe is just to replicate what worldcat (01:04:55):
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Jay: already does in a widget right but we gotta pay oclc for that to even work so (01:05:00):
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Jay: why aren't we also mad at oclc why aren't we saying oclc must die you know you know i. (01:05:06):
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Sadie: Mean there are there are definitely people who are saying oclc must die like. (01:05:12):
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Jay: But not as many as are saying rda must die i i. (01:05:19):
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Sadie: Believe you on that front. (01:05:22):
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Jay: But i. (01:05:24):
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Sadie: See oclc and i'm like oh god what now, (01:05:25):
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Sadie: Yeah. (01:05:29):
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Justin: I wasn't really taught AACR2 or RDA because they knew RDA was literally about (01:05:30):
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Justin: to come out my second year of library school. (01:05:36):
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Justin: So they're like, here's AACR2, don't get used to it, but RDA is not out yet, (01:05:39):
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Justin: so we can't teach it to you. So I never had any real interest in cataloging (01:05:44):
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Justin: because they were like, well, I guess I'll figure it out eventually. (01:05:49):
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Justin: And then I remember they made all the librarians like on the same day do like (01:05:52):
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Justin: an eight hour RDA training. (01:05:56):
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Justin: And our cataloger was pissed. She had to be in that meeting all day on her computer. (01:05:58):
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Jay: How else do you do professional development and continuing education? (01:06:04):
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Justin: Well, she just didn't want to be on an eight hour meeting. (01:06:08):
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Jay: Going to school sucks. I don't know what to say. Like, wow, you got to learn (01:06:13):
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Jay: shit somehow. God damn it. (01:06:16):
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Justin: Well, she'd rather be cataloging books and getting them cataloged for the first (01:06:20):
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Justin: time because it was a dark archive. (01:06:24):
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Jay: Yeah, well, like even non-RDA, like standards, standards should be living and be able to change. (01:06:26):
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Jay: And you got to learn that when those changes happen. (01:06:32):
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Sadie: I don't know. (01:06:35):
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Jay: People get so like, I learned the thing once. I know it forever. (01:06:36):
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Jay: It's like, no, you don't. (01:06:39):
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Sadie: It sounds like a labor issue, honestly. I'd rather be doing this thing. (01:06:41):
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Sadie: It sounds like you need another cataloger. (01:06:46):
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Jay: Yeah, so that you can go take your professional development. (01:06:48):
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Jay: Anyway, it's got me riled up more than I was expecting. (01:06:51):
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Jay: I also want to say I did a control F in all three articles. (01:06:54):
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Jay: And at least referring to public libraries, the word public shows up a grand (01:06:59):
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Jay: total of zero times across all three articles. (01:07:05):
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Jay: Whereas large academic library shows up like six times in one of them and then (01:07:09):
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Jay: shows up a couple times in the others. Just saying. (01:07:16):
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Justin: All right. (01:07:20):
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Jay: God damn it. (01:07:22):
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Justin: I also went through the open rules for (01:07:23):
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Justin: cataloging page and like a lot of them (01:07:27):
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Justin: are blank but it looks like they're still active but (01:07:30):
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Justin: the idea is they're filling in gaps for areas of cataloging that are not freely (01:07:33):
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Justin: available so if there's already a freely available version of the rules or description (01:07:39):
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Justin: type we're going to skip it for now and focus on areas that are not really available. (01:07:45):
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Jay: Yeah like i think the rare books description stuff is freely available or like (01:07:50):
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Jay: the archives one is freely available so that probably wouldn't be in there yeah but this. (01:07:57):
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Justin: Looks pretty active like provide feedback by january 31st 2025 they've got new (01:08:02):
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Justin: committee members as of november. (01:08:06):
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Jay: 2024 so yeah because i know one of the leading people who did that is no longer (01:08:08):
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Jay: a librarian because i'm friends with them i was gonna say they're a friend of (01:08:13):
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Jay: the pod but i don't think they've been on ever before but i've i've done things (01:08:17):
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Jay: with them i know them friend. (01:08:20):
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Justin: Of the you. (01:08:23):
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Jay: Friend of the me. (01:08:24):
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Justin: Okay. Well, maybe we'll do an Open Rules for Cataloging episode and dive into (01:08:26):
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Justin: what that is more and see if that's something people should learn about. (01:08:30):
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Jay: And if you disagree with my takes, join the Discord and we'll talk. (01:08:33):
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Justin: Because I can be convinced. (01:08:39):
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Jay: Actually, when I'm wrong. I weirdly can't have my opinion changed if I learn (01:08:40):
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Jay: more. I just sound cranky right now. (01:08:45):
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Justin: Don't forget to ring the bell. (01:08:48):
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Jay: Sure. On YouTube, where we get cross-posted. (01:08:49):
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Justin: Her. (01:08:52):
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Jay: Comments open on our youtube videos. (01:08:53):
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Justin: Yeah we get comments sometimes nothing interesting (01:08:56):
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Justin: oh shit oh usually just like that's cool or peanut sorts in bio i don't know (01:08:59):
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Justin: it's usually like spam or just like nothing interesting like great episode cool (01:09:06):
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Justin: so yeah comment great episode yeah learn about vpns london. (01:09:11):
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Jay: Fog ice cream bar now. (01:09:16):
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Justin: People kept tagging me in discord while we were recording so i was i thought (01:09:18):
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Justin: maybe breaking news was happening in library world but no it's just i've been (01:09:23):
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Justin: in discord all day and people are following up with shit i've been saying all right good night. (01:09:26):
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144 - BIBFRAME must die

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}144 - BIBFRAME must die