148 - Censorship is a Drag feat. Jason and Jordan - librarypunk

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sadie: I'm Justin, I'm a free agent and my pronouns are he and they. (00:28):
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Sadie: I'm Sadie. I work IT at a public library, and my pronouns are they, them. (00:33):
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Jay: I'm Jay. I'm a cataloging librarian, and my pronouns are he, (00:37):
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Jay: him. And we have guests. Would you like. (00:40):
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Jason: To introduce yourselves? My name is Jason. My pronouns are he, (00:43):
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Jason: him, and I'm an academic librarian in public services. (00:47):
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Jordan: I'm Jordan. My pronouns are he, him, and I'm a director of library services. (00:52):
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Jordan: Thank you all right director of library services is that like access services (01:00):
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Jordan: or you're the full director of the whole thing director the whole shebang yeah (01:04):
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Jordan: right i'm i'm just really keen on job titles right now because i'm doing all (01:08):
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Jordan: this job hunting so everything. (01:12):
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Jason: Comes up and it's like oh you're the director slash ceo of this job it's like (01:13):
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Jason: okay well which is it throws me off certainly that job did not have a salary commensurate. (01:18):
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Jason: Would you tell me a little bit about yourself and why you decide to be an editor for this book? (01:34):
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Jason: Let's see. I'm a small town boy from Alabama that finished his master's in history (01:41):
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Jason: and knew that I didn't want to go on to get my PhD. (01:46):
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Jason: So I got kind of pointed in the direction of library school. (01:50):
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Jason: I really enjoyed the research and the idea of helping others with their research. (01:53):
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Jason: So I've kind of bounced around a few places over the years. (01:58):
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Jason: Landed here about three years ago. Had a career, you know, active in the LGBTQ (02:02):
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Jason: community, both professionally and And personally, both Jordan and I served (02:09):
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Jason: together on the board of Inequality Center. (02:13):
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Jason: That was some fun times. (02:16):
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Jason: For me, this book was kind of, it was cathartic after several experiences that (02:18):
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Jason: Jordan and I shared together when we were working together at our previous university (02:25):
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Jason: or my previous university. (02:30):
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Jason: And one thing that kind of kept with me was the thought that someday this will be useful to you. (02:32):
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Jason: And then we just kind of reached this moment of critical mass with all the things (02:38):
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Jason: going on, that it seemed like a moment right to come out with a book to kind (02:44):
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Jason: of talk about the experiences we had. (02:50):
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Jason: And I'll just kind of stop there and let Jordan kind of catch up. (02:52):
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Jason: And then we'll talk a little bit more about the origins of the book. (02:55):
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Jordan: Yeah, I guess my story is kind of similar to Jason's. I've been in libraries (02:58):
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Jordan: since I was 16, so it's been a minute. (03:02):
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Jordan: And honestly, I think part of my reason for being in libraries, (03:05):
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Jordan: it's kind of the common story. I like helping people, etc. (03:08):
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Jordan: But I also, from my youngest years, I've hated censorship. I can't with it. (03:11):
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Jordan: I know that's not silly, but there's a lot to say. (03:17):
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Jordan: I've edited a book about it. I kind of want to gather my thoughts here. (03:21):
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Jordan: I guess my interest in fighting censorship didn't directly connect to my interest (03:23):
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Jordan: in libraries and my professional work until, like Jason has just hinted at, (03:29):
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Jordan: we had these shared professional experiences at Jason's previous job and at (03:33):
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Jordan: my current workplace where censorship did come into play. (03:37):
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Jordan: And then in the last couple of years, you know, moms, I keep doing this Freudian (03:40):
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Jordan: slip, Moms Against Liberty. (03:44):
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Jordan: I'll do the right thing, call it Moms for Liberty. (03:46):
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Jordan: Started doing their thing. And I think that might have been a little bit of (03:48):
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Jordan: the catalyst for our deciding to edit this book was seeing that, (03:52):
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Jordan: yeah, we've had these experiences and it's going on at an institutional level of other places. (03:55):
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Jordan: And let's gather some thoughts around it. Yeah, we did a whole episode about (04:00):
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Jordan: Moms Against Liberty. And I'm going to take that now because I think it's. (04:03):
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Jason: To Emily Drabinsky's book series. So why don't you tell us how the books got started? (04:35):
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Jason: So I had a contribution in an earlier book in that series, Out Behind the Desk. (04:40):
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Jason: So that was kind of an end that, you know, oh, let's start here. (04:47):
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Jason: And so Jordan and I, our original idea was we wanted to do this book about academic libraries, (04:53):
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Jason: instances of censorship of LGBTQ materials and services and academic libraries, (05:01):
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Jason: because there's not a lot of scholarship out there about it. (05:07):
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Jason: And really, the most thorough treatment of it came from Carmichael's work in the 90s. (05:12):
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Jason: And there hasn't really been much since then in terms of academic libraries. (05:18):
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Jason: So that was our initial thought. We did our call for proposals and had just (05:22):
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Jason: such a tremendous response to that from school librarians, public librarians, (05:27):
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Jason: archivists, that we decided to expand the scope of the book to just cover libraries (05:33):
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Jason: in general because there was so much there that could be said and that needed to be said. Jordan? (05:38):
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Jordan: I think that's about right. Yeah, we began with this idea that we would be, (05:45):
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Jordan: you know, working in new territory if we were targeting academic libraries specifically. (05:48):
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Jordan: And then it became very clear as we began, you know, doing a lit review. (05:53):
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Jordan: And kind of, I think, honestly, as submissions started rolling in, (05:58):
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Jordan: in response to our initial CFP, (06:02):
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Jordan: that this was going to be a much more comprehensive project, (06:04):
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Jordan: that it was going to incorporate lots of different kinds of libraries and different (06:10):
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Jordan: kinds of censorship, honestly, (06:14):
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Jordan: because I think one concept that we get at is there are various ways to censor things. (06:15):
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Jordan: So yeah, it was maybe a little bit of mission creep at the outset, (06:20):
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Jordan: but I think that it ended up going in a more thorough direction, I hope. (06:22):
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Jason: One thing that that was important is we wanted to have kind of this toolkit (06:27):
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Jason: component to each of the chapters. (06:34):
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Jason: You know, we didn't just want to tell stories. (06:36):
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Jason: We wanted people to be able to have kind of something to take away from it. (06:39):
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Jason: Like, how can I use this in my situation? (06:43):
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Jason: So that's something that I'm hopeful will be helpful in this present moment. (06:47):
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Jason: Another important thing, and we had to kind of go separate from some great contributions (06:52):
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Jason: we got along the way, is that we wanted these chapters to be accessible to as (06:58):
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Jason: many people as possible. (07:04):
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Jason: And I think some of our colleagues, particularly those in academic librarianship, (07:05):
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Jason: have kind of this academic voice, (07:10):
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Jason: if you will, when they're writing, that is not very clear or understandable (07:13):
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Jason: to people that don't read and speak in that academic voice. (07:18):
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Jason: And so we had some contributions that were just kind of really up there in the (07:22):
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Jason: ether, and we tried to maybe tone it down a little bit. (07:25):
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Jason: And ultimately, we just had to kind of part ways. (07:29):
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Jason: But it was important to us that we wanted this book to be accessible to everyone. (07:32):
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Jason: And so that's something else that I want to kind of plug in for. (07:37):
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Sadie: And when did the final draft come in? (07:40):
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Jay: Like what time of year? Like when did the book stop updating, basically? (07:43):
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Jordan: Oh, gosh. (07:48):
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Jason: We got the final chapters in December of 23. (07:48):
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Jordan: 23, yeah. And then there was a full year of basically our final edits to the (07:55):
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Jordan: chapters and back and forth to the publisher before it went to press. (08:01):
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Jason: Litwin and Library Juice Press, they were also impacted by Hurricane Helene. (08:05):
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Jason: I think a lot of their operations are based out of Asheville, North Carolina. (08:11):
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Jason: So that also kind of slowed down the publication process. (08:14):
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Sadie: And I'm not actually entirely certain that we have said the name of the book yet so far. (08:18):
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Jay: We're so good at this. (08:25):
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Sadie: We're so good at this. So yeah, why don't you give us the bare bones of the (08:26):
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Sadie: metadata of the book, if you will? (08:31):
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Jason: Well, as you can see from the front cover, the title of the book is Censorship (08:33):
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Jason: is a Drag, LGBTQ Materials and Programming Under Siege in Libraries. (08:38):
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Jason: And for folks at home that can't see, I'm holding up a copy of the book. (08:43):
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Jason: And the cover itself has the title, has Jordan and I as co-editors, (08:47):
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Jason: but it's been marked out with a black marker. And that was a very deliberate (08:52):
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Jason: choice that we and the publisher made as part of this statement. (08:56):
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Jason: Great. Yeah, thank you for the description. I found out recently that we have a deaf listener. (09:02):
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Jay: So that'll really help if we do more description of any visual stuff. (09:06):
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Jay: It reminds me of those banned book talks. Yeah, you can get. (09:12):
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Jay: Okay so since this this book (09:18):
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Jay: kind of wrapped before the election obviously we're (09:21):
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Jay: a little behind and um i mean obviously (09:25):
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Jay: all the chapters are very prescient but didn't really know (09:27):
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Jay: like the flooding of issues that we were going to be dealing with on all different (09:30):
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Jay: sorts of levels although most of them guessed pretty correctly i would say i (09:35):
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Jay: think there is um i would definitely love to see like a volume two where people (09:40):
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Jay: update you know based on what happens during. (09:45):
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Jason: The next year because you know a lot's changing (09:48):
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Jason: very quickly you know it's funny (09:51):
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Jason: that you point that out this is a conversation jordan and (09:54):
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Jason: i have had together and with our (09:57):
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Jason: series editor emily drubinsky whom i (10:00):
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Jason: can't say enough good things about she's good people that (10:02):
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Jason: when when we sent the manuscript to the publisher (10:06):
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Jason: in march of 24 and then (10:09):
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Jason: kind of through the year jordan and i had kind of the feeling (10:12):
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Jason: that you know maybe maybe as a country maybe maybe we were about to turn a corner (10:15):
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Jason: on things you know maybe this was just going to be kind of an inflection point (10:20):
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Jason: and and this would just be kind of a book of history documenting what happened (10:25):
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Jason: and and sadly that was not the case so. (10:30):
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Jordan: Like and actually there's something in i think it's our introduction chapter? (10:33):
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Jordan: Yeah, that I wanted to point to. (10:37):
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Jordan: And this is a passage that I think I wrote. While we've seen encouraging signs (10:39):
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Jordan: that the oppressive measures of the past several years are facing real pushback (10:43):
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Jordan: and even exhaustion within the ranks, as one mom for liberty noted in early (10:46):
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Jordan: 2024, I guess there wasn't as much willingness to do the work that's required (10:49):
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Jordan: to propel the movement forward. (10:52):
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Jordan: There's no reason this can't happen again. So like, I think we're definitely (10:54):
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Jordan: riding kind of under the assumption that, you know, like the election wouldn't (10:56):
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Jordan: fix everything. Obviously, elections don't fix everything. (11:00):
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Jordan: But under the idea that maybe, be, you know, this sort of, you know, (11:02):
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Jordan: moms for liberty movement and kind of, you know, the tensions and the pressures (11:05):
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Jordan: that we were discussing in our book had maybe, you know, reached their highest (11:10):
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Jordan: point and then were beginning to burn themselves out. (11:14):
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Jordan: And then everything else started happening. And we've had the developments, (11:16):
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Jordan: you know, at this like whiplash speed just in the past couple of months. (11:19):
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Jordan: So we did definitely kind of go from the sense of the book being not just a historical document, (11:21):
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Jordan: but in part a historical document to being, I optimistically think kind of a, (11:28):
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Jordan: you know, part of a continuing conversation that we don't want to continue because (11:33):
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Jordan: it means censorship is still ongoing, but it's going on whether we like it or not. (11:36):
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Jordan: Yeah. (11:41):
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Jay: It's funny you mention the burnout of these movements. (11:43):
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Jay: So one thing we actually did when we were talking, it would have been 2022. (11:47):
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Jason: We actually brought on a comedian to talk about sort of right-wing engagement on the. (11:51):
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Jay: Changed everyone's talking points immediately. (12:17):
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Jay: And so one thing that we were talking about was, you know, who is going to continue (12:20):
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Jay: doing the day-to-day work of this? Because you can have rabble-rousers who are (12:26):
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Jay: big people, like Libs of TikTok, (12:29):
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Jay: 5,000 across the country by himself. We still are going to have that. (12:37):
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Jay: Who's going to, you know, the Baptist churches or particularly Southern Baptists. (12:41):
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Jay: I'm not trying to paint all Baptists with the same brush, but what I said at the time, (12:46):
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Jay: of how it's regained traction through the election of Trump. (13:00):
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Jay: And it's kind of amazing to me how much the momentum has installed on attacks on libraries, because, (13:05):
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Jay: the week, they'll move on to the next target. But they're really impressively (13:14):
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Jay: hitting on every target and keeping up the momentum just through the sheer force (13:18):
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Jay: of maintaining, you know. (13:23):
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Jason: Months, but they are really keeping their targets in sight. And it's unfortunate. (13:28):
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Jason: It we started out the book with a chapter on (13:33):
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Jason: stoicastic terrorism written by bren nilson (13:36):
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Jason: and man a chapter like i went back and (13:39):
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Jason: re-read it again today and it just really knocks it out of (13:42):
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Jason: the park just kind of setting up this intellectual framework of how and why (13:45):
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Jason: this is going on you know kind of this three-legged stool you're having the (13:49):
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Jason: pundit having the medium in this case being the internet and then having the (13:53):
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Jason: activity and it just you know it feels like the internet for all it's good, (13:57):
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Jason: has unleashed these forces that allow that fire to continue to burn. (14:03):
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Jason: Yeah. Even then, without, you know, it's really kind of interesting how. (14:08):
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Jay: Like, Moms Against Celebrity is, like, still doing the day-to-day work. (14:14):
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Jay: You know, I really thought this is just going to go to the Facebook grandmas, (14:16):
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Jay: and they'll be the ones writing the letters and stuff, but it's not going to (14:20):
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Jay: be, you know, essentially an extension of the Ron DeSantis campaign. But that's not true. (14:23):
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Jay: It's kept up, and that's really not something I expected. (14:28):
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Jay: Yeah, and even beyond just censorship of queer materials, (14:31):
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Jay: with the rise of the on-campus protests and encampments against the genocide in Palestine. (14:38):
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Jay: You're seeing now library administrators censoring their employees. (14:48):
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Jay: There was so recently there was (14:54):
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Jay: a harvard employee fired for tearing (14:57):
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Jay: down one of those like free the hostage posters and (15:00):
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Jay: he was wearing his badge at the time and so that's (15:04):
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Jay: how they knew it was him and they fired him he was a cataloging librarian (15:06):
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Jay: at harvard that one of the heads of (15:10):
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Jay: or whoever's like high like their university librarian or (15:13):
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Jay: whatever also was like banning library (15:16):
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Jay: employees from like entering the building when they were (15:19):
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Jay: supporting students and faculties like silent (15:22):
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Jay: like protests in the library so it's (15:25):
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Jay: even beyond just the materials now it's like any sort of dissent of speech if (15:29):
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Jay: the library doesn't agree with it because apparently that's not what libraries (15:34):
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Jay: are for now that's news to me but so it's even just beyond materials like employees (15:38):
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Jay: are being censored or just straight up fired now so. (15:44):
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Jordan: Honestly like that connect i mean there's a there's an experience that i think it's. (15:48):
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Jay: Jason l. (15:52):
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Jordan: But that we recount in the book about i mean jason the the incident. (15:53):
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Jay: Which one yeah which one um relatable yeah. (15:57):
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Jordan: A good librarian does not you know oh. (16:03):
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Jason: Dear god yeah so that anecdote, (16:05):
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Jason: So that's really kind of at the root of this book, is that inspired this book. (16:09):
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Jason: These things will be useful for you later. to just (16:15):
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Jason: briefly summarize we had a new librarian start guess (16:18):
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Jason: in like 2015 who wanted to to (16:21):
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Jason: start doing a banned books display and so (16:25):
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Jason: i did a search in our catalog and they say the collection wasn't (16:28):
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Jason: great because we just transitioned not long before (16:31):
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Jason: from a community college to a four-year university (16:34):
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Jason: and had largely relied on donations from the state library or from the community (16:38):
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Jason: so the collection wasn't great so of course we don't have a lot of the banned (16:44):
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Jason: books so i used some retrospective collection development funds from a project (16:47):
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Jason: i got approval for to purchase every title available. (16:51):
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Jason: On amazon because that was the book jobber we were using at the time all the (16:56):
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Jason: banned books from the banned books list including the joy of gay sex which became (17:01):
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Jason: kind of the cause of great Fuhrer and the library for several years. (17:06):
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Jason: One of the library employees objected to adding the book to the collection, (17:12):
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Jason: brought the book to a meeting. (17:17):
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Jason: And we went through this whole rigmarole of, you know, explaining why this book is being added. (17:19):
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Jason: We got faculty to weigh in on the value of this book in our collection and the (17:24):
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Jason: staff member just continued to refuse to accept it. (17:29):
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Jason: And one day in a moment of frustration, the library director at the time, not Jordan, (17:32):
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Jason: Jordan's wonderful, I was a library director at the time, came into my office (17:36):
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Jason: and just simply said that a good librarian does not do anything to jeopardize (17:41):
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Jason: their library or the place of their paycheck. (17:48):
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Jason: I kind of took that as a veiled threat. (17:51):
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Jason: And that was kind of the seed for that particular chapter. (17:54):
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Jason: Academic. (18:01):
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Jay: Libraries have so much porn in them though like have they not heard of like (18:01):
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Jay: a women's studies department like of the libraries that have porn it's usually (18:06):
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Jay: academic libraries like this is not new this is not controversial like and. (18:10):
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Jason: What's really funny is joy of sex in the collection yeah. (18:16):
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Jordan: Of course and like i don't like i'm (18:19):
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Jordan: i'm a movie guy and i donate like old dvds (18:22):
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Jordan: of mine to the library that have absolutely filthy stuff in (18:25):
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Jordan: them and i know and like the (18:28):
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Jordan: staff member never objected to that stuff because apparently she wasn't watching (18:31):
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Jordan: the movies but she was able to you know go through this one-off book and find (18:34):
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Jordan: it has graphic illustrations but they're nothing more graphic than you would (18:39):
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Jordan: find in you know the heterosexual counterpart to the book um yeah and i mean (18:43):
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Jordan: it's it's an acknowledged classic you know it's whether she likes it or not (18:48):
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Jordan: it's a classic so but beyond. (18:51):
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Jason: That you had ordered a book that she added to the collection without question tulsa i. (18:53):
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Jordan: Ordered yeah tulsa by larry clark and like i'm sorry that book is every bit (18:58):
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Jordan: as graphic as anything in the edmund white book but maybe she liked me better i don't know. (19:02):
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Jason: I i have what i like to call a resting beer face um that has won me few friends over the years well. (19:06):
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Sadie: It depends depends. (19:20):
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Jason: Where you are at the time but sadie. (19:21):
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Jay: Just shot me. (19:26):
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Jason: Such a look, (19:26):
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Jason: um i've lost my oh but i remember in the story uh (19:32):
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Jason: you were i believe it was you who jason who (19:36):
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Jason: was ordering books and the person was (19:39):
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Jason: not ordering them yeah we talk about that (19:41):
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Jason: in our building collection development policy chapter (19:44):
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Jason: so as i mentioned we were (19:47):
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Jason: using amazon as our jobber so what (19:50):
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Jason: we would do is we would send amazon links (19:53):
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Jason: to a librarian in the library (19:57):
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Jason: who was responsible for actually purchasing (20:00):
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Jason: them and and doing all the technical (20:03):
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Jason: processing to add them to the collection so i (20:06):
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Jason: faithfully sent um i think one year like (20:09):
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Jason: i let me back up we were doing this retrospective collection (20:12):
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Jason: development project i got approval for so each (20:15):
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Jason: year i would pick an underserved community to (20:18):
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Jason: buy books for so one year african americans one year (20:21):
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Jason: native americans and so on and so the year came around i did start out with (20:24):
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Jason: the gays because that would just be a little too on the nose but you know i (20:29):
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Jason: started i you know one year i ordered or requested a whole slew of titles from (20:33):
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Jason: the Stonewall Book Awards and the Lando Awards, so award-winning titles. (20:38):
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Jason: And set them faithfully on, thinking that these books were being ordered for the collection. (20:44):
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Jason: And it was only later, when we were putting together a book display for Pride (20:49):
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Jason: Month, that I realized that (20:54):
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Jason: actually know the books were never ordered and (20:56):
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Jason: this was the single person just sort of vetoing (20:59):
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Jason: it on their own with and and sometimes going to the director to (21:03):
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Jason: be yeah i i think and this was kind of before the whole rigmarole about the (21:06):
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Jason: joy of gay sex because again i bought that for that band books week project (21:12):
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Jason: but i i don't know if it was the director that tacitly said no or if it was (21:16):
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Jason: just this librarian exercising their prerogative. (21:22):
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Jason: But in either case, the books were not ordered. (21:25):
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Sadie: And something that I really like how the stochastic terrorism and stochastic actions chapter is so. (21:30):
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Jason: High up in the book, early in the book, because I think it pulls together a. (21:38):
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Jason: Lot of the chapters by explaining how this whole thing is connected. (21:42):
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Jordan: Giving everyone the opportunity to be nasty to queer people. (23:14):
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Jordan: And there's also, I think, a component where people are almost forced to internalize this stuff. (23:19):
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Jordan: So it goes back to the idea of community standards, right? If you're working (23:25):
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Jordan: within these sort of widely accepted, or what somebody says is widely accepted (23:29):
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Jordan: parameters, community standards, eventually you're going to internalize that (23:33):
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Jordan: as part of your practice. (23:36):
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Jordan: And it's almost like this panopticon thing (23:37):
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Jordan: where you end up you know with this perception (23:40):
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Jordan: that oh this some force outside of me is going to attack me if i don't adhere (23:43):
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Jordan: to this and so you don't end up taking these risks right like jason did you (23:49):
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Jordan: after these events happened like did you get more you know outgoing with your (23:53):
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Jordan: lgbtq oriented purchasing or did you kind of keep your head down you know. (23:58):
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Jason: Uh i absolutely did not (24:01):
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Jason: like i i i remember (24:04):
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Jason: when i was like heading out the door i was really tempted to buy (24:07):
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Jason: another copy of the joy of gay sex because the copy (24:10):
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Jason: that we bought just disappeared of course it was (24:13):
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Jason: never having a lot of fun yeah yeah it as an aside the employee that challenged (24:16):
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Jason: adding that book allegedly was not homophobic because they have a gay cousin (24:23):
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Jason: that they're very fond of of course so maybe they they gave it to their their cousin um. (24:29):
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Jay: I think they're the gay cousin. (24:39):
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Jason: So, (24:45):
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Jason: it has had a chilling effect for sure. Like when I, I left, I left the job. (24:48):
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Jason: I moved on. I was content to stay there for the rest of my career. (24:54):
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Jason: I still miss that community. I had like a community of scholars that we have (24:59):
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Jason: a group chat that is active every single day. (25:04):
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Jason: I miss working with those people. But I left and I talk about this and in one (25:07):
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Jason: of our other book chapters, look at the title list or no, I've got it in our little sheet here. (25:13):
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Sadie: Is it at what cost? (25:20):
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Jason: Yes, at what cost? I talk about this with queer battle fatigue, (25:22):
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Jason: that that's the result of not even just being an advocate, being a gay person (25:28):
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Jason: in a situation where you're being asked to explain something, (25:34):
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Jason: being asked to defend something, it takes a toll. (25:38):
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Jason: But when you are an advocate, you know, buying books, doing programming, (25:42):
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Jason: and you experience this backlash, you know, it takes a professional and personal toll. (25:47):
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Jason: You know, for three years, I had to go on anti-anxiety medications because of (25:54):
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Jason: everything, like just the culmination of it all. And this was even before the pandemic. (25:58):
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Jason: So it takes a toll. And I, I've kind of recalibrated my scholarship, (26:03):
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Jason: my service since then, you know, I reached out to, (26:10):
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Jason: well, when we had it here in Florida, um, reached out to the sponsor, (26:15):
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Jason: oh gosh, (26:20):
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Jason: the, the safe zone training on campus. (26:22):
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Jason: Cause I was, I used to be a safe zone trainer and I, you know, (26:24):
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Jason: I was interested in doing that here and, you know, kind of getting involved. (26:27):
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Jason: But I said, I do not want to be the face person. (26:31):
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Jason: You know, I'm happy to work behind the scenes. I don't want to be the face person. (26:34):
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Jason: I had, you know, these bad experiences before and I'm happy to be a worker bee, (26:38):
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Jason: but please don't put me up front. (26:43):
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Jason: Yeah. Jordan, you mentioned community standards. (26:46):
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Jordan: To say in terms of this anti-queer movement? (27:06):
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Jordan: I think it, well, I mean, I guess for one thing, it kind of brings us to this (27:13):
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Jordan: sinister incident for the drag story time that we had, where I think community (27:17):
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Jordan: standards also came into play as a concept. (27:20):
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Jordan: So basically, I want to say that it was the end of 2018. We had the idea that (27:23):
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Jordan: we should do a drag story time in our academic library, that this would be a (27:28):
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Jordan: fun kind of offbeat event for finals. It would be a stress buster, (27:32):
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Jordan: and it would be definitely a way of getting attention. (27:35):
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Jordan: It drew the wrong kind of attention it got the attention of a state legislature (27:38):
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Jordan: who effectively said i think this are not the kinds of events that we should (27:41):
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Jordan: be supporting certainly not with taxpayer money so and really jason you should (27:46):
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Jordan: be you and this is more straight for you because i think you ended up kind of (27:50):
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Jordan: taking the administrative brunt of this didn't you. (27:54):
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Jason: I you know and i wasn't even the one that initially organized (27:56):
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Jason: the event wasn't even my idea or on my radar (27:59):
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Jason: but i was the sponsor of the student (28:02):
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Jason: group pride at uafs at the time so (28:05):
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Jason: you know we had the idea of hey let's get the student group (28:09):
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Jason: to sponsor this and we'll just house it in the library and (28:12):
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Jason: and that kind of put me front and center i remember there was you know everything (28:16):
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Jason: was fine we our library director at the time had gotten approval from her immediate (28:20):
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Jason: supervisor everything seemed fine and then And, you know, when the state legislator, (28:26):
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Jason: who ironically or not so ironically, is now on the state library board. (28:33):
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Jason: Got wind of it and all these things started blowing up (28:38):
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Jason: and then you know the university was getting pressure (28:41):
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Jason: from the local community and from alumni you know (28:45):
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Jason: at that point things started to hit the fan and i (28:48):
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Jason: had both the provost and the associate provost come over to my (28:51):
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Jason: office i had never seen either of them in the library (28:54):
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Jason: before much less in my office and that (28:57):
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Jason: was really kind of daunting to have both of them sit down and (29:00):
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Jason: you know go over the particulars of this event with me and we (29:03):
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Jason: talk about this in some detail particularly in our toolkit of (29:06):
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Jason: if you're gonna do it this is how you should do (29:09):
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Jason: it and part of the issue was is that (29:12):
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Jason: we had included the library's logo on the flyer and (29:15):
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Jason: so you know the legislator had really latched on to that and said that the university (29:19):
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Jason: was endorsing this event because the library logo was on the flyer and so ultimately (29:24):
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Jason: you know the decision was made to just take the logo off the flyer and everything (29:29):
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Jason: would go forward But it was a real stressful time. (29:33):
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Jordan: But I also think going back to the ADF community standards, that was sort of (29:37):
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Jordan: the cliche that came into play a little bit. (29:40):
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Jordan: And I don't remember whether that phrase was actually articulated in the whole (29:43):
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Jordan: thing. Certainly the concept was. (29:45):
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Jordan: But it wasn't the community getting upset. It was one or two people in the community (29:47):
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Jordan: maybe getting a few of their online followers stirred up about the whole thing. (29:51):
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Jordan: But the community's reaction really, it seemed positive to me. (29:55):
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Jordan: People did not seem to take the event. It wasn't like, you know, (29:59):
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Jordan: like small town rises up to oppress, you know, the, you know, the gays within. (30:02):
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Jordan: It was really, you know, this agreeable event is happening. (30:07):
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Jordan: People who want to show up are going to show up. Those who don't will avoid it. (30:10):
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Jordan: But it ended up, I think the opposition kind of painted themselves as being, (30:13):
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Jordan: you know, the voice of the community in this whole thing. And I think that's (30:17):
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Jordan: what happens a lot of time with community standards. (30:19):
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Jordan: Somebody who's vehemently against something will represent themselves as being, (30:21):
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Jordan: you know, the authority on it. (30:25):
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Jordan: They are the ones who speak for the community, whereas the gays or the minorities, (30:26):
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Jordan: whatever, are not, you know, by dint of being minorities, they cannot speak for the community. (30:30):
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Jordan: That's the dynamic that I think was in play in this event. I think that's the (30:36):
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Jordan: dynamic that's in play so much in so many of these situations where, (30:39):
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Jordan: the community really a minority within the community is there to the press materials programming whatever. (30:43):
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Jason: It ended up being a really lovely event and a news crew had come to film it (30:48):
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Jason: and they actually packed up and left early because it was so anticlimactic you (30:53):
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Jason: know in the in the height of all the drama that led up to i mean with all the (30:58):
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Jason: drama you would have thought a drag queen was planning it but. (31:02):
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Jay: Um and like (31:05):
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Jay: i think a mistake that people make (31:09):
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Jay: when these kinds of things happen is to like actually (31:12):
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Jay: take the argument as valid like oh (31:16):
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Jay: how dare they have a drag queen around the children (31:19):
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Jay: don't that's why would why do the drag (31:23):
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Jay: queens only go to the children and not the like elderly and stuff it's because (31:25):
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Jay: they're all pedophiles and we go no no we're not and it's like that's that's (31:29):
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Jay: actually not the way that you tackle this because then you're like giving their (31:33):
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Jay: argument any validity at all and that's just not what we should be doing by (31:37):
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Jay: like having this like Like, (31:42):
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Jay: oh, we're squeaky clean, like sexless figures. (31:43):
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Jay: Like, we're okay to be in your community. It's like, no. Like, well, that's bullshit. (31:46):
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Sadie: Something kind of similar happened at one of my former library systems where (31:52):
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Sadie: they organized a drag story hour for the first time. (31:57):
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Sadie: And the area was very, very rural, but surprisingly democratic in the places (32:01):
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Sadie: where there were actually people. (32:10):
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Sadie: And the library that was holding the event was the (32:12):
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Sadie: biggest city in the area and they (32:15):
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Sadie: kind of did that where people were all up on the (32:19):
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Sadie: facebook being like well blah blah blah why is this you know why is this pervert (32:21):
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Sadie: reading to our children etc etc and for some reason the idea that somebody got (32:26):
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Sadie: was to go okay but she's a local school teacher to be like this is this is something that, you know, (32:34):
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Sadie: she's, you know, this is just something she does on this, but this is like, (32:40):
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Sadie: she has the, you know, she has the qualifications to be doing this just as well (32:44):
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Sadie: as one of our like children's librarians kind of thing. What's the thought process? (32:49):
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Sadie: But then as soon as they were like, well, no, she's a local school teacher, (32:52):
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Sadie: like nothing about this is going to be inappropriate. (32:57):
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Sadie: The first thing that got asked was what school does she teach at? (33:00):
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Sadie: Right. Which then is just escalates it immediately. (33:04):
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Jay: Why is she a schoolteacher? She wants to be around the children. (33:07):
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Sadie: At that point, the PR fucking shut down. (33:12):
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Sadie: Like they thankfully just shut down that line of questioning whatsoever. (33:15):
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Sadie: And we're just like, we're we're not talking. (33:19):
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Sadie: We're not answering any more questions about this. We are going ahead with the (33:23):
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Sadie: event as scheduled, you know, not answering any more questions about this. (33:25):
undefined

Sadie: If you want to come, come if you don't. (33:29):
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Sadie: And it went off without a hitch because it was like three people. Right. (33:30):
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Sadie: Who probably didn't even live in that part of the county. They probably lived (33:34):
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Sadie: like an hour and a half away or whatever. (33:37):
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Sadie: But like that, I cannot imagine being that person being like, (33:39):
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Sadie: I'm going to spend my time doing this thing for my community and representing (33:44):
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Sadie: my community only to have to be like, well, where is your job at? (33:49):
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Sadie: Right like that's fucking terrifying even (33:52):
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Sadie: if ultimately the event goes perfectly (33:56):
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Sadie: smoothly like you said jason it's still like it's still it's queer battle fatigue (34:00):
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Sadie: that's probably the best like way i can that's such a good term for it but yeah (34:05):
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Sadie: the don't don't pretend like their arguments are valid is really the thing and yeah we. (34:10):
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Jason: Are are circling around it's perfect because You know, just don't accept the premise. (34:17):
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Sadie: Yep. (34:23):
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Jason: And and unfortunately, you know, the university being a public institution, (34:24):
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Jason: they had to accept the premise because one of the people throwing dust up in (34:28):
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Jason: the air about it in the legislature was chair of the committee responsible for (34:32):
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Jason: the university's state funding. (34:36):
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Jason: But, you know, to their credit, and I really, you know, if anyone from there (34:39):
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Jason: hears this podcast, I do want to give credit. They did continue with the event. (34:43):
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Jason: You know, we did get asked a ton of questions afterwards. (34:48):
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Jason: You know, how is this event funded? (34:51):
undefined

Jason: Was any public funds used for the event? (34:53):
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Jason: That God none were, or I'm sure someone would have gotten fired. (34:56):
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Jason: So all of it had either come from the local nonprofit, the quality center, (35:00):
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Jason: or from the student group. (35:06):
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Jason: Yeah. Yeah, it's on the topic of community standards. (35:08):
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Jay: I there's another way we can approach it, which is when someone is saying that (35:12):
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Jay: they speak for the community. (35:17):
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Jay: I think also a lot of people, particularly like liberal minded people, (35:18):
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Jay: think less of their community. (35:22):
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Jay: But you shouldn't think that in yourself either. I think you should kind of assume the best. (35:28):
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Jay: These are just really loud, annoying people. (35:34):
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Jason: Um it puts people on the defensive and what i one thing i was thinking of was years. (35:36):
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Sadie: Alabamans who are queer in alabama like it's about them you know you can't how (35:59):
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Sadie: could it get more about alabamans right yeah and so exactly saying like we're (36:05):
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Sadie: having a drag story hour in our. (36:11):
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Jason: Think circumvent a lot of the argument by saying this is all run locally this (36:22):
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Jason: is your community and it's we touch on that and the collection development chapter because, (36:26):
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Jason: you know, like you were saying, this university is located in kind of a rural area. (36:33):
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Jason: It's the biggest town in that part of the state. (36:39):
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Jason: And so, you know, the library is the only place that some of these people are (36:42):
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Jason: going to find these books, the only place they're going to see themselves represented. (36:47):
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Jason: Otherwise, you know, we had, I think, one gay bar in town and that was it. (36:50):
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Jason: We had our, you know, quality center. (36:55):
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Jason: We were small but mighty. And so it's so important to have these materials, (36:57):
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Jason: to have these programming, because we're part of the community. (37:01):
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Jason: You know, community standards were part of the community. (37:05):
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Jason: That's why we also were collecting materials about the Hispanic community, (37:09):
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Jason: because that part of Arkansas has a huge Hispanic population. (37:13):
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Jason: That's why we got books about the Native American community, (37:17):
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Jason: because we're next door to the Choctaw Reservation. (37:20):
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Jason: And I think that needs to be the angle that we push back with, (37:24):
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Jason: is that if you want to talk about community standards, we are part of the community. (37:27):
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Jason: Yeah, I think people are hesitant to believe that because they want. (37:31):
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Jay: Why a lot of this centers around parents and children, because there's this (37:41):
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Jay: sort of fear that a lot of people have that their children are going to go off (37:44):
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Jay: and do something that they don't quite understand. But that, (37:51):
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Jay: experience is so curtailed as a child. (38:05):
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Jay: Like when we talked about the rights of children to read and know things, (38:08):
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Jay: you know, you can say there's like. (38:13):
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Jason: This is an extreme minority in our community, but you don't know. Yeah. (38:14):
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Jay: Even if there's only one person, that person exists, you know. (38:19):
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Jordan: Like during our time in this area where I'm still there and Jason has since (38:24):
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Jordan: left, but we we've known multiple people who, you know, like married a woman (38:28):
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Jordan: young and then came out later in life. (38:32):
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Jordan: Like that's, that's a story that is common here because people don't have, (38:34):
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Jordan: they don't have access to this crucial aspect of their identities. (38:38):
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Jordan: And I'm not going to say that having these materials and libraries to represent (38:42):
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Jordan: the entire community would necessarily be the cure all for that, (38:45):
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Jordan: but it wouldn't be a problem. (38:48):
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Jordan: It would help at the very least, you know? Oh, yeah. (38:49):
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Jordan: Yeah, we've done tons of episodes where we've said, you know, (38:52):
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Jordan: how did you find information about being. (38:55):
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Jason: Also, I just saw a book at the library. You'd be surprised how often the library comes up. (39:01):
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Jason: That was the case for me when I was kind of coming of age, finding a book in the library. (39:06):
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Jason: I still remember that moment, a light came on and I realized that I'm not a (39:13):
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Jason: freak, that there's not something wrong with me. (39:18):
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Jason: And I don't think the people screaming about community standards appreciate (39:21):
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Jason: that, how lonely and scary it can be to grow up as a queer person, (39:26):
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Jason: or at least, you know, when I was growing up. (39:30):
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Jordan: Or maybe they do to some degree. Oh, go on. Yeah. And why it takes them having like a gay child to. (39:33):
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Jason: But they can't imagine beforehand what that reality would actually feel like. (39:43):
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Jay: It can also be important to be a little bit i (39:48):
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Jay: don't know if prefigurative is the right word but like (39:52):
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Jay: even if you don't know if there are queer people in your community (39:55):
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Jay: which there are but even if they're say there weren't is it so horrible to have (39:57):
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Jay: books about queer people in your collection even if they're not quote in your (40:03):
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Jay: community like the books what's in a library and who's in a community doesn't (40:07):
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Jay: have to map like one-to-one like there might one day be queer people. (40:12):
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Jay: People might want to learn about queer people. (40:17):
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Jay: Like, queer people are just cool and we should know about them. I don't know. (40:19):
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Jay: Like, this whole thing that a library's collections have to perfectly map onto (40:22):
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Jay: the community members, I think sometimes gets us into problems like this. (40:26):
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Jordan: And that's kind of what collection development is about, right? (40:31):
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Jordan: It's about foreseeing the needs of your community before they're explicitly articulated to you. (40:33):
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Jordan: You know, like, that's a good job of collection development. (40:39):
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Jordan: Yeah, and it's why it starts at the school libraries. (40:42):
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Jason: Because that has a. (40:45):
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Jay: I'm missing the word. But you have, when you learn things in public school, (40:47):
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Jay: you are forced to learn them and forced to learn about them. (40:53):
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Jay: In a public library, you're sort of free to learn about it. There's a coercion aspect to public. (40:56):
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Jason: Unforced force of being interested in something or a better argument. (41:33):
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Jason: When you're talking about queer battle. (41:39):
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Jay: Fatigue i also wanted to talk about like creating division why are you creating (41:41):
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Jay: division in your community when you talk about, (41:47):
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Jay: focal point of it though because we bring attention to it, but we're not starting these things. (42:00):
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Jay: And I think maybe people can feel a little, I don't know if it will help with (42:07):
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Jay: the battle fatigue, but realizing that you are going to be seen itself rather (42:10):
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Jay: than a person who's just trying to explain the conflict to other people. (42:15):
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Jay: Sarah Ahmed talks about, like writes about this phenomenon a lot, especially around like, (42:19):
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Jay: Like being a killjoy, like a feminist killjoy, like, or like being a troublemaker (42:26):
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Jay: because she's the one who would like bring up issues around like racism or sexual (42:32):
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Jay: assault in like faculty settings and stuff. (42:37):
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Jay: And that there's a quality to like complaining that is sticky, (42:40):
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Jay: right? It sticks to the person who's doing it. (42:47):
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Jay: And then they're seen as the source of the problem. she writes about this a (42:49):
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Jay: lot i highly recommend her work yeah if folks are interested in this kind of (42:53):
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Jay: phenomenon of like what why am i seen as the problem when. (42:58):
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Jason: I'm just pointing out the problem and. (43:02):
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Jay: It's because complaining has this sticky quality to it you know. (43:04):
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Jason: It's funny you know it's good i'm reaching (43:07):
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Jason: for a pen and pad to write that down that that (43:11):
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Jason: happens um and i touch on it in (43:14):
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Jason: the queer battle fatigue chapter that as the sponsor (43:17):
undefined

Jason: of the credit uafs um group (43:20):
undefined

Jason: you know the students came to me with a question about gender (43:23):
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Jason: neutral bathrooms and so i you know wearing my hat as the faculty sponsor i (43:26):
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Jason: went to a senior administrator with the question of do we have gender neutral (43:33):
undefined

Jason: restrooms on this campus and what is our policy about gender neutral restrooms (43:38):
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Jason: And I never got a reply from him. (43:42):
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Jason: So, you know, I was diligent and, you know, followed up three times. (43:45):
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Jason: And he finally just said, tell the students to use the bathroom that they're (43:49):
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Jason: most comfortable using. (43:53):
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Jason: But at his next staff meeting, he said, Jason Phillips is a troublemaker. (43:54):
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Jason: Yeah and i wasn't i wasn't trying to stir (44:00):
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Jason: up the issue and that was actually an issue that had created some national attention (44:02):
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Jason: for the university a few years before about the question of you know accommodating (44:07):
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Jason: a trans student so i wasn't even stirring up trouble i just was asking a question (44:12):
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Jason: what is our policy but asking the question meant i was a troublemaker it. (44:16):
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Jay: Means you're the source of the problem because people didn't know there was (44:21):
undefined

Jay: a problem until you brought it up. (44:23):
undefined

Jason: Yes yeah yeah Yeah. I also, to remind everyone, I do try and make a list of (44:25):
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Jason: everything that we mentioned in an episode. So. (44:32):
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Jay: Amit's books and The Joy of Gay Sex and everything else we've mentioned. (44:39):
undefined

Jay: So those will all be linked in the notes. If you're a librarian, (44:42):
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Jay: buy them for your collection. (44:45):
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Jay: Exactly. Buy like three copies of The Joy of Gay Sex so everyone knows how good it is. (44:47):
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Jordan: And also buy several copies of Censorship is a Drag. (44:52):
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Jay: Yes, that too. Wink. (44:55):
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Sadie: The library punk recommended reading list for your library. (44:58):
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Jay: And remember, you are also a patron of your library. Even if you don't do collection (45:03):
undefined

Jay: development, you are also a patron and you can request things. (45:07):
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Jordan: But to be honest, I have not bought a copy of our book for our library yet. And here's why. (45:10):
undefined

Jordan: Honestly, I'm still working at the place where these experiences happen. And I... (45:15):
undefined

Jordan: I think the atmosphere is distinctly more sympathetic. (45:20):
undefined

Jordan: It's distinctly more sympathetic to diversity now, but I'm still mindful that (45:24):
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Jordan: I'm working in the South and that is a region that still has all these tensions, (45:28):
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Jordan: these pressures, these increasing, you know, aggressions toward LGBTQ people. (45:33):
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Jordan: And I have administrative support in this thing. You know, our, (45:38):
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Jordan: our, our chancellor bought a copy and brought it to me to sign it. (45:41):
undefined

Jordan: And I was touched by that. (45:44):
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Jordan: Um, but at the same time i'm like do i want to (45:45):
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Jordan: put a target on my back if i don't necessarily have to in this case you know (45:48):
undefined

Jordan: and like it hurts me not to have a copy of my own book and the library where (45:52):
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Jordan: i work but also i'm like maybe this is best for now maybe maybe the situation (45:55):
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Jordan: will feel different in a few years and i'll finally you know steal my nerve (45:59):
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Jordan: and do it but up to this point i haven't felt comfortable with it yeah. (46:02):
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Jay: Yeah picking your fights. (46:05):
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Sadie: Is important um it really is i've always talked about that i mean on the whole (46:06):
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Sadie: range of issues of like you know. (46:11):
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Jason: In terms of like that kind of thing happening which is a strange sentence to (46:48):
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Jason: say but it's true like no one has come around with a list of like here's every (46:51):
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Jason: time your your website says gay or lgbtq, (46:55):
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Jason: I'll be the face of this because it's fine. (47:25):
undefined

Jason: But that's a line I'm willing to draw, but it's, it's, you know, (47:29):
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Jason: it's also because like, I'm willing to move. (47:32):
undefined

Jason: I'm willing to get a new job. I'm, you know, that's, that's not everyone's position. (47:34):
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Jay: One of the, actually, this is good. One of the things that comes up multiple (47:41):
undefined

Jay: times in the book is the political nature of libraries. (47:46):
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Jason: As a big thing of saying the ALA is against this because this is an attack on (48:21):
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Jason: all queer people existing. (48:26):
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Jason: It's not a library-specific issue, but we're going to talk about it from the library perspective. (48:28):
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Jay: This sort of the fear, the failure of neutrality as a policy, (48:33):
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Jay: which is never really a policy. (48:39):
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Jay: In fact, it doesn't really come up anywhere in most libraries, (48:40):
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Jay: codes of conduct or anything. (48:43):
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Jay: And it made me think there was a discussion recently in the SkullCom Shit Talk. (48:45):
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Jason: Things like that from their website because they work directly with the federal (48:57):
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Jason: government to get grants. (49:01):
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Jason: And we were going back and forth about, is this a sound move? Is this too. (49:03):
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Jay: Know, I think most people actually lean towards saying, yeah, (49:14):
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Jay: it was a good strategy because of the direct nature of their work with the federal. (49:17):
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Jay: Government at this moment. (49:21):
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Jason: It was a good retreat. But I don't, again, I still, it's the same thing with (49:22):
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Jason: that DEI collection. I don't know how I feel about like that. (49:27):
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Jason: Like, I think that might be a line for. (49:30):
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Jason: Think about strategic retreats, I guess? I know it's a difficult one. (49:34):
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Jason: It's funny you mention that i'm on a ala committee and the chair of the committee, (49:38):
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Jason: is a librarian with the federal government and they (49:45):
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Jason: recently said that their term is up in june and they are not staying on the (49:49):
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Jason: committee and i don't think they're staying involved or active with ala and (49:54):
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Jason: i think that largely has to do with with what's going on and that that is kind (49:58):
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Jason: of a strategic retreat for her in this situation and i i feel badly but It's tough. (50:02):
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Jason: It's really tough because we talk about in one of our chapters, (50:09):
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Jason: if we had to do the drag story time again, would we have done it? (50:13):
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Jason: And no, I would not have after having lived through that. (50:18):
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Jason: And that's the line that we have to kind of draw is that we are professionals, (50:22):
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Jason: but yeah, I got to keep a roof over my head for my four cats and two dogs. (50:26):
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Jason: They're bums and they depend on me. (50:32):
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Jason: So i i understand some of these (50:36):
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Jason: decisions that they got to keep the lights on they got to they got (50:38):
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Jason: to keep the grants rolling in or they got to do this but it's (50:41):
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Jason: also it's a scary time because what what's going to get lost in this process (50:44):
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Jason: and you know assuming you know god willing four years from now we inaugurate (50:49):
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Jason: someone new and different and better are we going to be able to kind of wind (50:54):
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Jason: back the clock on this or how much of it's going to be sticking around with this for a while. (50:58):
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Jordan: Yeah I think that's my, (51:03):
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Jordan: And I think, I mean, these are things that, you know, we thought, (51:05):
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Jordan: we thought it was, we thought it was on the way and we thought it was going (51:08):
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Jordan: away, but it's, it's not, you know, and like one thing that came up recently (51:10):
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Jordan: is we were doing these like kind of like book talks on YouTube for our press. (51:14):
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Jordan: And somebody asked the question in the chat about how does how does this stuff, (51:19):
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Jordan: you know, sort of echo or rhyme with the NEA censorship of the 80s and 90s, (51:23):
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Jordan: you know, works of art being censored, you know, the government is funding, (51:28):
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Jordan: you know, works by, you know, Andre Serrano or whatever. (51:30):
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Jordan: And we can't allow that to happen. It's the same conversation again. (51:33):
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Jordan: So even if we get somebody better in office who maybe doesn't actively hate (51:37):
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Jordan: libraries and gay people, that's not to say that this sort of tensions driving (51:42):
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Jordan: moms against liberty and similar things are going to fade. (51:46):
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Jordan: I'm afraid these are battles we're going to have to fight again and again, (51:50):
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Jordan: and it sucks. But each time we're going to have to choose our role within the battle. (51:53):
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Jason: I reckon some real politicians are going to use the IMLS like they used to use the NEA. (51:57):
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Jay: Oh, go ahead, Jordan. (52:04):
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Jordan: So look at what's happening now with the ALA, where it's literally being weaponized (52:07):
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Jordan: against entire state libraries because of one remark that the former president of the ALA made. (52:10):
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Jordan: The ALA before this was, I think it was widely seen as this unimpeachable organization. It's the ALA. (52:17):
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Jordan: How could we possibly think anything bad of it? (52:23):
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Jordan: But now it's being weaponized against states. (52:25):
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Jordan: If a state library association mentions a connection to the ALA, (52:28):
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Jordan: there's legislation to defund that. (52:32):
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Jordan: That's happening, what was it, Montana? It's happening in Arkansas. (52:34):
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Jordan: So these former authorities are no longer really, whether or not they're fighting (52:38):
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Jordan: on behalf of librarians, they're not leveraged in the same way that they were (52:44):
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Jordan: before. The authorities themselves are under attack. (52:48):
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Jay: And like with the sort of like being where do you draw the line between like (52:51):
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Jay: what's being strategic versus what's bending the knee or, you know, (52:58):
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Jay: where do we make these decisions and how and why? (53:04):
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Jay: It's it's sort of like does taking (53:07):
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Jay: language off a website mean you can't do the work anymore is sort of where i (53:10):
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Jay: would like if if me taking a word off of a website means that i don't have the (53:14):
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Jay: fuzz on my tail but i still do the work like it's more about like like. (53:20):
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Jay: Be like people who need to know can know it (53:28):
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Jay: you know i know there's like (53:32):
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Jay: this feels like maybe like related to like discussions of (53:35):
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Jay: the closet right and like visibility and (53:38):
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Jay: representation like this happens with with trans people a (53:41):
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Jay: lot like what is representation versus what's (53:44):
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Jay: putting a target on us like there's a (53:47):
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Jay: reason why trans women are so visible and (53:50):
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Jay: so attacked it's because they're so visible right like (53:53):
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Jay: there's a lot to do with like the politics (53:57):
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Jay: of the closet and of representation and people (54:00):
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Jay: being like no i have to be visible and i'm (54:03):
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Jay: like i am visible to the people (54:08):
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Jay: who matter to me and everything and it's (54:11):
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Jay: like and i i'm not saying like we should all go back in (54:14):
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Jay: the closet because fuck no we shouldn't we should do sodomy in (54:16):
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Jay: their faces but like you know if i if i can take a word off a website and that's (54:19):
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Jay: going to keep me my job like i'll take a word off a website you know like that (54:25):
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Jay: that's where i would draw that line but being organized is what's important (54:29):
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Jay: here is what's very important yes sadie yeah. (54:33):
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Sadie: Well and i also just kind of think of it as like again like individual lines. (54:37):
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Jay: What's the line. (54:43):
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Sadie: For me gonna be but also like what hits am i willing to take so other people don't have to take them. (54:44):
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Jay: Like like. (54:51):
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Sadie: In the past couple of months i've been thinking really (54:52):
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Sadie: like you know everybody's talking about moving to canada and all (54:56):
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Sadie: of this shit right which has been a very difficult topic but i have three trans (54:58):
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Sadie: nibblings who are teenagers living through this time and i'm thinking you know (55:06):
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Sadie: if i stay and fight even if they somehow go to a supposedly better country, (55:11):
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Sadie: I'm fighting so they can come back, right? (55:19):
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Sadie: For their future. So I'm willing to take those hits. I'm willing to be the visible queer that I am. (55:23):
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Sadie: So they could possibly be safer in the future kind of thing. (55:28):
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Sadie: And like, that can also apply to our jobs and our communities. (55:32):
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Sadie: Like maybe you keep your head down at your job because you need to keep your (55:36):
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Sadie: job and you're not going to push the envelope there, but maybe outside of your (55:39):
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Sadie: job, you volunteer helping with like immigrants find legal help and teaching, (55:42):
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Sadie: you know, learning Spanish so you can help your neighbors stay, (55:50):
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Sadie: you know, stay away from ice. (55:53):
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Jay: You know? (55:55):
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Sadie: So it's like, it's not, it's not that zero sum game, (55:56):
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Sadie: but we all do have to play it individually, but we all also have to know which (55:59):
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Sadie: part of our communities we can take the best hit for and which ones are too (56:03):
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Sadie: personal for us to withstand, if that makes sense at all. (56:08):
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Jay: Also unionize. (56:13):
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Sadie: Also unionize, like seriously, like I feel like a lot of that is like, (56:14):
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Sadie: so so much of that right now is like voting rights and unionize work on voting (56:18):
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Sadie: rights and unionize maybe then like yeah anyways that's devolving but you know (56:24):
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Sadie: that's kind of where i'm at at this point. (56:31):
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Jason: The jordan and i were involved with (56:32):
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Jason: and i want to like i want to (56:35):
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Jason: say this about arkansas when i moved to arkansas in 2013 like (56:38):
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Jason: yeah it's conservative state there's a lot of religious conservatives there (56:42):
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Jason: but there was also kind of this really broad streak (56:45):
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Jason: of libertarianism where i never (56:48):
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Jason: felt uncomfortable being openly gay in arkansas (56:52):
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Jason: because people were very live and let live there for a time and so when we would (56:55):
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Jason: do interviews with the press we would always say the most important thing that (57:02):
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Jason: we can do for our community is to be out and open to show people in the closet that it's okay. (57:08):
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Jay: Yeah. (57:16):
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Jason: So even if that's what it takes doing is just being out and open and just finding (57:16):
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Jason: small ways to help the community, (57:23):
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Jason: that will still be enough for our brothers and sisters that are in the closet (57:27):
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Jason: or that are running scared. Yeah. (57:32):
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Jay: Yeah, I was always very like, even like early in my transition, (57:36):
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Jay: when I would do instruction, I was very open about the fact that I was queer, (57:41):
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Jay: because like I wanted, because my first career, my first job at a library school, I lived in Utah. (57:46):
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Jay: And like, I wanted the people who, I mean, because like, contrary to popular (57:54):
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Jay: belief, like less than half of the people in Salt Lake City are practicing Mormons. (57:59):
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Jay: And the Mormons I did meet there were like, kind of cool. like i went on a date (58:03):
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Jay: with a socialist mormon one time that was kind of fun they're there i promise (58:06):
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Jay: wild you're fucking wild. (58:10):
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Jay: But like i was always (58:14):
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Jay: very open about the fact that i was queer (58:19):
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Jay: and that i was trans because i (58:22):
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Jay: knew that there were probably kids there who were exposed (58:25):
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Jay: to that when they were younger and like i wanted (58:28):
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Jay: to show them that it was okay and also to challenge them because (58:31):
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Jay: sometimes you would run into people who needed to be challenged (58:34):
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Jay: but that's why they were there and not at brigham young university so that (58:37):
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Jay: they could be challenged so yeah full shade (58:41):
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Jay: on brigham young but you know yeah of course the the one thing that i worry (58:45):
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Jay: about with because you know a website is just a poster board that is the outside (58:52):
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Jay: face of your organization it doesn't say you know i would prefer spark. (58:58):
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Jason: Feels like i think we might sometimes overestimate how clever we are in terms (59:08):
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Jason: of well we'll back down here but that means they won't. (59:14):
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Jay: Target us and you get targeted anyway and and every time you see something on (59:17):
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Jay: social media where they're like oh they back down on this but it was strategic (59:21):
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Jay: don't you know it's the criminology, (59:24):
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Jay: got they still you know they know that these organizations are their enemies (59:29):
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Jay: they know that the ala is ultimately not on their side so it doesn't really (59:34):
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Jay: matter if the ala takes a stand or not so there's there's definitely times when (59:37):
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Jay: we have to pick our organizations to be actually saying the things that they need. (59:42):
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Jason: To say because you need something to rally around. (59:47):
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Jay: The homosaurus ain't changing shit for the record. That'd be very funny to try (59:49):
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Jay: it and anti-clear the homosaurus. (59:54):
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Jay: You just take it down at that point. (59:56):
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Jason: And there's several references to that source in our book too. (59:59):
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Jay: Hell yeah. Yeah. Jay is our local homosaurus board member. (01:00:03):
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Jay: We're turning into a collective and you can apply to be on one of the several (01:00:08):
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Jay: little committees. And if you're so interested in being involved, (01:00:12):
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Jay: Brie Watson put a bunch of links to things in various listservs. Cough. (01:00:15):
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Jay: Help us, we're only like six. (01:00:21):
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Jay: Give us your free labor. (01:00:25):
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Jason: I got my start in librarianship as a copy cataloger, so I may have to. (01:00:28):
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Jay: Hell yeah, let's fucking go. (01:00:32):
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Jason: I'm going to light. (01:00:34):
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Jason: Yeah, we talked with the Queer. (01:00:36):
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Jay: Liberation Library folks. They're all they're all moonlighting on on that whole (01:00:37):
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Jay: project and they have no institutional support. It's all local, (01:00:41):
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Jay: to, you know, very quickly rewrite their stuff in order to get the next round (01:00:56):
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Jay: of grant funding. But how long can we rely on that? (01:01:00):
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Jay: Do we need to start looking at other forms of funding, you know, (01:01:03):
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Jay: union funds or crowdfunding or things outside of the government? (01:01:07):
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Jay: Because right now the government's not. (01:01:13):
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Jason: A reliable funder. Can I just say that drag queens are really great fundraisers? (01:01:14):
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Jay: Hell yes, they are. that. (01:01:21):
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Jason: That's another lesson jordan and i took from the equality center is we used (01:01:23):
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Jason: to host an annual gala featuring like at least five or six drag queens and that (01:01:27):
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Jason: was that was such a bomb fundraiser. (01:01:33):
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Jay: Everyone loves a lady who's very pretty but looks a little bit like a venus (01:01:36):
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Jay: flytrap being a little bit mean to them that's like a universal like the maslow's (01:01:42):
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Jay: like hierarchy of needs that's like the The bottom one is like a lady being (01:01:46):
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Jay: mean to me and she looks like a monster a little bit. (01:01:50):
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Sadie: A little bit of a predator. (01:01:55):
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Jay: Yeah. So, pro tip. (01:01:58):
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Sadie: Maybe not that word, yeah. (01:02:02):
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Jay: Yeah, and also local funding sources. You know, public libraries are funded (01:02:05):
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Jay: locally, making sure you have your community on your side. (01:02:10):
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Jason: And it's a difficult tightrope, but it's important. (01:02:13):
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Jay: I think to your union like the (01:02:16):
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Jay: the support of your community members is what gives you as (01:02:20):
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Jay: a union power you can't go on (01:02:23):
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Jay: a quote i mean when there's no such thing as an illegal strike the only illegal (01:02:26):
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Jay: strike is a failed strike remember that kids but if you go on a strike even (01:02:29):
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Jay: if you're not allowed to cough the way you do that is by having community support (01:02:33):
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Jay: so that you don't piss them off by being a public servant who is now on strike (01:02:37):
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Jay: right and you show them how it's, (01:02:41):
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Jay: inconvenience, but they're like, yeah, it is inconvenient, and they're mad at (01:02:43):
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Jay: the right people and not you. (01:02:46):
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Jason: Right. (01:02:48):
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Jordan: And I think that's something that we kind of harp on in one of our chapters (01:02:49):
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Jordan: where we talk about, is it building and defending, Jason, where we talk about (01:02:53):
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Jordan: how you have to have an investment in your community before anything goes wrong. (01:02:56):
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Jordan: I mean, obviously, there are situations where that won't necessarily help because (01:03:00):
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Jordan: obviously there are plenty of libraries who think they have community support and then, (01:03:04):
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Jordan: surprise, the rug's pulled out from under them by some cranks (01:03:08):
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Jordan: or whatever but if you have a foothold in (01:03:11):
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Jordan: your community people really recognize the the value of your resources that (01:03:14):
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Jordan: will at least give you people beyond your staff who will fight for you if the (01:03:18):
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Jordan: shit hits the fan like you don't want to be left alone fending your for yourself (01:03:22):
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Jordan: in these situations you want to have people writing letters on your behalf and (01:03:26):
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Jordan: making noise to the state well jason you haven't you, (01:03:30):
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Jordan: You have an example close to home about this, don't you, from Alabama, (01:03:34):
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Jordan: just the last couple of days. (01:03:37):
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Jason: Yes, I was going to mention that. To Jordan's point there real quick, we talk about that. (01:03:38):
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Jason: He actually wrote that part of that chapter talking about how librarians and (01:03:43):
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Jason: libraries were not really built or poised to sort of defend ourselves because it's not our mindset. (01:03:48):
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Jason: And so that's why it's really essential to develop these communities of support and allies. (01:03:54):
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Jason: And in the academic setting, you know, that's your faculty and your faculty senate. (01:04:00):
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Jason: What Jordan mentioned, though, is, and this kind of goes back to what we were (01:04:07):
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Jason: talking about earlier, how things are different in 2025 from when we started out with this in 2022, (01:04:11):
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Jason: is, you know, the bans and the protest has become more institutionalized. (01:04:18):
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Jason: You know, they're taking over school boards, they're taking over library boards, (01:04:23):
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Jason: they're taking over the state library board, which happened in Alabama. (01:04:27):
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Jason: Chair of the library board in Alabama is also the Republican Party leader of Alabama. (01:04:31):
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Jason: They just fired the state director of libraries because there were libraries (01:04:37):
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Jason: that were getting funded from the state library that had these banned books in their collections. (01:04:41):
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Jason: The notable example being Fairhope Public Library, which Fairhope is neighbor (01:04:47):
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Jason: of the small town I grew up in and Daphne. (01:04:52):
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Jason: And the community has rallied around this public library. (01:04:55):
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Jason: They had a city council meeting where basically one of the city councilmen gave (01:04:59):
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Jason: a full-throated defense of the public library and said, we don't need outsiders (01:05:03):
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Jason: telling us how to run our library. (01:05:08):
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Jason: And that has been so effective in the defense of this library. (01:05:11):
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Jason: And the amount of money they're getting from the state that's been suspended (01:05:14):
undefined

Jason: is kind of minimal from what they're getting locally. (01:05:17):
undefined

Jason: But I think that's kind of the thing is like rallying the community support (01:05:21):
undefined

Jason: that we don't need outsiders telling us what to do. (01:05:25):
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Jason: And the people protesting and challenging these books aren't even members of our community. (01:05:29):
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Jason: And I think really kind of rallying around that kind of particular perspective could be effective. (01:05:35):
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Jason: So there was an issue that me and Jay were talking about. (01:05:42):
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Jay: And I wanted to, I think this would be the best time to pull it into the podcast, (01:05:46):
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Jay: which is the discussions about the Library of Congress subject headings and (01:05:52):
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Jay: the difference between that and local cataloging. So. (01:05:57):
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Jay: Source in order to make sure that things are still discoverable. (01:06:15):
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Jay: Especially with the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of America, and Denali back to (01:06:21):
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Jay: Mount McKinley is the main two things that happened recently. (01:06:25):
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Jay: Yeah, but there's labor issues. (01:06:29):
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Jay: Jay, why don't you go ahead and say what you were thinking. (01:06:32):
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Jay: So, yes, it is absolutely true. you do not have to (01:06:35):
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Jay: like go into your catalog and change all of (01:06:38):
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Jay: these over i saw a lot of people going like you're complying (01:06:41):
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Jay: in advance if you don't do anything and (01:06:44):
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Jay: to that i say do you actually know what doing authority (01:06:48):
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Jay: work in a catalog is like especially at scale (01:06:51):
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Jay: and also do you know all of the plate like are (01:06:54):
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Jay: you not using oclc records because oclc will (01:06:58):
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Jay: change them over and other people will add them in (01:07:01):
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Jay: are you going to always change them when they come over do you have an (01:07:04):
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Jay: automatic process do you pay a third-party vendor (01:07:07):
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Jay: to do this for you are you in an academic library and (01:07:10):
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Jay: so you don't think about these things like do you have (01:07:14):
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Jay: electronic resources like ebooks and stuff that come in through a discovery (01:07:17):
undefined

Jay: layer where the mark record never even touches your catalog these headings are (01:07:20):
undefined

Jay: going to get into your catalog whether you like it or not which sucks this is (01:07:24):
undefined

Jay: bad and i hate it and it's bad that we rely on lc so much including internationally. (01:07:29):
undefined

Jay: Like lc stuff affects does it like (01:07:36):
undefined

Jay: affects cataloging at an international scale right and (01:07:38):
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Jay: so when the people were like well if you don't use local headings (01:07:42):
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Jay: if you just sit back and you're complying (01:07:45):
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Jay: in advance and like who's doing their authority control and and so like these (01:07:48):
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Jay: questions of like labor around censorship and around like stuff this this particular (01:07:54):
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Jay: regime is trying to impede upon libraries like, (01:08:02):
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Jay: there's only so much you can do as an individual, (01:08:06):
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Jay: and this is why organizing and stuff is so important because it's like if, (01:08:09):
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Jay: libraries won't even pay for us to do the authority control if they want to (01:08:13):
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Jay: shell out a third party to do it like, (01:08:18):
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Jay: They're not going to fund just doing, okay, well, Denali is now Mount McKinley, (01:08:21):
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Jay: so we want to make sure it's not Denali again. (01:08:26):
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Jay: To which I want to say, why aren't you doing that for every single place name (01:08:29):
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Jay: in your catalog that has an indigenous counterpart to it? (01:08:34):
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Jay: Why don't you work with your local tribal communities to see what language they (01:08:37):
undefined

Jay: might actually want changed? (01:08:43):
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Jay: And it's because of money. We don't have the money to do that because that's (01:08:46):
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Jay: like a project and it's not necessarily (01:08:51):
undefined

Jay: sustainable unless you have money like in a budget line for it. (01:08:53):
undefined

Jay: And so, like, I guess with, like, some of these issues around, (01:08:58):
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Jay: like, complying in advance and there's only so much you can, (01:09:01):
undefined

Jay: quote, be an activist at work, (01:09:04):
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Jay: like, especially around, like, censorship, like, how much of this has to do (01:09:06):
undefined

Jay: with just, like, we aren't given, we don't have, we aren't given the money to (01:09:09):
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Jay: actually put the labor towards this problem the way it deserves. (01:09:14):
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Jason: It's it's not you don't have the institutional power to do this institute do this, (01:09:19):
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Jason: authority control so i don't know i just wanted to run that (01:09:36):
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Jason: past you two and see if you had any thoughts i you (01:09:39):
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Jason: know i mentioned earlier that i started out my career as copy (01:09:43):
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Jason: cataloger while i was finishing up grad school and i (01:09:45):
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Jason: was i started out in that time where you know (01:09:49):
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Jason: cataloging departments used to have a ton of copy catalogers to do this kind (01:09:52):
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Jason: of authority control to do these kind of record updates and they you know started (01:09:56):
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Jason: losing these positions through attrition and and people retiring and you know (01:10:01):
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Jason: they started relying more on vendor records that they were getting from their book jobbers. (01:10:07):
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Jason: So if we're going to make this change, who's going to be there to do it? (01:10:12):
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Jason: You know, we're cataloging departments, technical services departments are less (01:10:17):
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Jason: than half what they were 20 years ago in terms of staffing. So it's a huge labor issue. (01:10:22):
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Jay: And I feel like this has touched on something like in our discord, (01:10:28):
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Jay: especially when the election first happened, we had a lot of people being like, (01:10:31):
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Jay: what can I do at work? Right? (01:10:36):
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Jay: How can I make sure that my library, that people in my community know that the (01:10:39):
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Jay: library is there for them. (01:10:43):
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Jay: And I think our broad answer was, like, a lot of this is going to have to happen outside of work. (01:10:45):
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Jay: Like, you're just going to have to start organizing in your community and not just at work. Like... (01:10:51):
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Jay: I hate to say that, but there's only so much you can be an activist at work sometimes. (01:10:56):
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Jay: My politics do not align with the politics of my workplace. (01:11:01):
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Jay: I have to do shit outside of work to feel like I'm doing something in my community (01:11:05):
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Jay: sometimes. Like I can do stuff in my union, right? (01:11:10):
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Jay: And I can mitigate at work. (01:11:14):
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Jay: But like, if I want my library, like if I, what I should be doing is like, (01:11:17):
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Jay: well, how can I encourage groups to maybe use the library? Or how can I make (01:11:23):
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Jay: sure those dialogues are set up? (01:11:27):
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Jay: But like, sometimes things are going to have to happen outside of the approved (01:11:29):
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Jay: realms of the state apparatus, you know? (01:11:34):
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Jason: And maybe that's one of the answers or one of the solutions is that for those (01:11:38):
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Jason: of us that are kind of, what can we do? (01:11:43):
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Jason: How can we feel effective? (01:11:46):
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Jason: How can we give in a way that doesn't jeopardize our jobs and our livelihoods? (01:11:48):
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Jason: But how can we push back or what can we do to make things better? (01:11:55):
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Jason: And maybe that's it. Maybe it's just it's the volunteerism of pitching and rolling (01:11:59):
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Jason: up your sleeves and doing the work, like volunteering with Homo Soros. (01:12:03):
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Jason: Or, you know, is there an equivalent to homosaurus for the Native American community? (01:12:07):
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Jason: And if there isn't, you know, let's start that up. I'm working with there. (01:12:11):
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Jay: There are several, actually. (01:12:15):
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Jason: Oh, good. Good. (01:12:16):
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Jay: Mainly coming out of the Pacific Northwest and places like New Zealand. (01:12:18):
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Jason: So you're rolling up your sleeves and doing that. And the government doesn't control the Internet. (01:12:23):
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Jason: The state of Florida does not control the Internet. So we, you know, (01:12:28):
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Jason: that is a space that we can have freedom to push back in, hopefully without retribution. (01:12:31):
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Jason: To at least keep the fight going and to at least make some kind of positive progress. (01:12:37):
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Jordan: And there's still, I think we still go back to this principle too of self-protection. (01:12:44):
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Jordan: You can't do everything. You can't be everything to everybody. (01:12:48):
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Jordan: You have to protect your own interests first and foremost because you're not (01:12:52):
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Jordan: going to do any good if you ruin yourself. (01:12:55):
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Jordan: You have to, again, cliche, but you have to pick your battles and sometimes (01:12:58):
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Jordan: you have to sort of mindfully pass your battles upward to people who are able to fight them for you. (01:13:01):
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Jordan: There are certainly battles that I wouldn't fight, but I might encourage higher (01:13:07):
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Jordan: leadership levels to fight them on my behalf because they're in a position where they can do that. (01:13:11):
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Jordan: It's a sad reality, but I can't be at the front lines of everything. I can't. (01:13:17):
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Jason: And we talked about this in the virtual book talks last week that Litwin and (01:13:22):
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Jason: Library Chiefs Press hosted. (01:13:29):
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Jason: Those of us that are living in kind of red states, southern states, (01:13:30):
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Jason: conservative states, we don't necessarily have the same freedom of action. (01:13:34):
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Jason: So those of us who live in blue states or who are in secure positions may have (01:13:39):
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Jason: to fight the battle for us for a time. (01:13:47):
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Jay: And I will say that those of us in blue states have a lot to learn from our (01:13:49):
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Jay: comrades in the red states as far as how do you do labor organizing in states (01:13:57):
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Jay: which are hostile towards labor organizing? (01:14:04):
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Jay: Because like it is not illegal to be (01:14:07):
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Jay: unionized in those states but that is the propaganda that (01:14:11):
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Jay: it is just because you can't do collective bargaining agreements a (01:14:15):
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Jay: lot of the time but that doesn't mean you can't unionize it doesn't mean you don't have (01:14:18):
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Jay: protections and as you know who knows what's going to happen to the nlrb and (01:14:21):
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Jay: everything but like the power of your union doesn't come from the nlrb you know (01:14:26):
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Jay: the only reason we have an nlrb is because we're like well I guess we'll stop (01:14:32):
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Jay: shooting the boss in the middle of the night, I guess. (01:14:37):
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Jay: That's why we have that shit now. (01:14:42):
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Jay: So i don't know but like there's like you (01:14:45):
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Jay: know there's like the do you think the the teachers in (01:14:48):
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Jay: west virginia who went on strike like had (01:14:51):
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Jay: like legal protections to do that absolutely not (01:14:55):
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Jay: did a single one of them get fired afterwards no (01:14:58):
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Jay: because they had built enough power to be (01:15:02):
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Jay: able to do that so yeah like we in the north like there's so many people are (01:15:04):
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Jay: like oh the nlrb it's like i give a fuck about the nlrb like that's that's not (01:15:10):
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Jay: what gives my union power and like we should we have a lot to learn from our (01:15:16):
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Jay: our comrades in the south i. (01:15:20):
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Jason: Was surprised to that when i came here that the state university system florida has a union united. (01:15:23):
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Jay: Faculty and. (01:15:31):
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Jason: I immediately like i was such an easy sell on joining the union when i got here (01:15:32):
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Jason: like they you know one of my colleagues was kind of starting to give me the (01:15:40):
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Jason: pitch and i was like where do i sign up like i'm i'm ready and i'm on the the (01:15:43):
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Jason: the union's bargaining team with the administration. (01:15:48):
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Jay: Let's fucking go that's yeah um and i tell you like you know it's. (01:15:52):
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Jason: Not that far in the past that that there there was union activism in the south (01:15:58):
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Jason: so if people would just kind of reach back to you know the days of their parents (01:16:02):
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Jason: their grandparents and for the younger generation their great-grandparents you (01:16:07):
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Jason: know the the labor was strong once upon a time and it can be again. (01:16:11):
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Jay: Yeah my grandpa was a coal miner and i (01:16:16):
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Jay: went he took me to united mine workers of america like union picnics when i (01:16:18):
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Jay: was a kid and i was reared on stories of slashing scab tires and all sorts of (01:16:24):
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Jay: shit like people used to go hardcore like let's slash scab tires again it's (01:16:30):
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Jay: a good pastime teach it to your kids it'll be great and. (01:16:34):
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Jason: As the u.s south is looked to as sort of an internal frontier. (01:16:38):
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Jay: To move on to talking about the advice that you both gave in the toolkit. (01:17:17):
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Jay: Given the changes that have happened. (01:17:23):
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Jason: Since the book has come out, is there anything that you would change. (01:17:25):
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Jordan: About that toolkit? (01:17:28):
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Jordan: I think that we kind of priced in the precarity, like the sort of like deliberate (01:17:30):
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Jordan: precarity that people are feeling at this point. (01:17:35):
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Jordan: Like, I think, I mean, that I think has, I mean, that's changed a little bit, (01:17:38):
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Jordan: you know, like in November before the election, people probably felt their jobs (01:17:42):
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Jordan: were significantly more secure than they do now. (01:17:46):
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Jordan: But I think we have sort of acknowledged that there's a real feeling of risk (01:17:48):
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Jordan: to fighting some of these battles. (01:17:56):
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Jordan: And again, choose your battles, work with other people, collaborate, (01:17:58):
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Jordan: collaborate, collaborate with other people, including your community, (01:18:01):
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Jordan: including people who have fought these battles before to be able to do this more effectively. (01:18:04):
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Jason: Um i think organizing with the community (01:18:10):
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Jason: i think that's something that i would really play (01:18:13):
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Jason: up more you know building that support in the community hell (01:18:16):
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Jason: i'd probably devote an entire chapter to that now um (01:18:19):
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Jason: particularly seeing instances like what happened in (01:18:23):
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Jason: pharaoh oh the fundamentals are there (01:18:25):
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Jason: though regardless of we went from (01:18:28):
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Jason: bad to worse but i think the fundamentals are there to (01:18:31):
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Jason: scale up and in jordan and i you know when we were (01:18:34):
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Jason: kind of preparing for this we had a conversation i'm (01:18:37):
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Jason: gonna pull that out because i had it flagged where we (01:18:40):
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Jason: were talking about like you know what what would (01:18:43):
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Jason: we do in volume two of this you know in the next book if if you know and maybe (01:18:46):
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Jason: we'll we'll we'll write that jordan let's put that in the hopper we're already (01:18:52):
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Jason: working on our next book project but one thing that jordan had mentioned is (01:18:55):
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Jason: scaling up from the idea of individual self-preservation to institutional self-preservation. (01:19:00):
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Jason: So that's something that I think we would definitely kind of pivot and also address. (01:19:06):
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Jason: Could you expand on what you mean by scaling up to institutional preservation? (01:19:11):
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Jordan: I think we're at a point where libraries, like, I mean, as like this collective (01:19:16):
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Jordan: entity, which sounds weird to say because libraries are made of people, right? (01:19:19):
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Jordan: But if we can sort of conceptualize libraries as being this collective thing, (01:19:23):
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Jordan: I think libraries do feel like there's this sort of existential threat? (01:19:27):
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Jordan: You know, is funding going to demolish their entire ability to carry out their mission? (01:19:30):
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Jordan: To what degree are libraries still going to be, even in, you know, (01:19:34):
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Jordan: a couple of years, to what degree are libraries still going to be, (01:19:38):
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Jordan: you know, what they are now? (01:19:40):
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Jordan: And how can libraries, you know, leveraging the individuals within, (01:19:42):
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Jordan: you know, how do we fight against that? (01:19:47):
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Jordan: You want to be able to keep yourself safe. You want to keep your interests safe as a person. (01:19:50):
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Jordan: But if you can reach some Maslow's baseline of having done that, (01:19:56):
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Jordan: where do you go from there to keep your library the active vital thing that (01:20:01):
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Jordan: hopefully it's always been? (01:20:06):
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Jason: You know it's not just the librarian advocates (01:20:07):
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Jason: with targets on their backs now but i think libraries (01:20:10):
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Jason: as as a whole you know with the elimination of (01:20:13):
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Jason: the imls potentially you know (01:20:16):
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Jason: the the effects of that are going to be devastating and and the work that it (01:20:19):
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Jason: was doing what it was funding that's going to be devastating especially for (01:20:23):
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Jason: small communities you know is the next step going to be that we're going to (01:20:27):
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Jason: be issued you know an approved book list by some organization and if books aren't (01:20:30):
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Jason: on this list, they've got to go. (01:20:36):
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Jordan: Okay, so there's legislation right now in Arkansas about that. (01:20:37):
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Jordan: It's effectively trying to do away with the Arkansas State Library and put the (01:20:41):
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Jordan: control of the State Library under the Department of Education. (01:20:45):
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Jordan: And this would basically allow community standards and what the mechanisms funding (01:20:49):
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Jordan: libraries would be entirely dictated by, if there's adult content in libraries, (01:20:54):
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Jordan: which we all know what adult content means, they would lose funding. (01:21:00):
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Jordan: And I mean, that alone is an existential threat to libraries. (01:21:02):
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Jordan: And like before, maybe before the 2024 election, what was the worst thing that (01:21:06):
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Jordan: an individual librarian could be called? A groomer, right? (01:21:11):
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Jordan: But now you have people thinking that libraries themselves are doing the grooming. (01:21:14):
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Jordan: Libraries, not just like some bad individual within the library, (01:21:18):
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Jordan: but the entire institution of the library itself is doing this. (01:21:23):
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Jordan: How do you fight against that? I don't have the answer to that question. I wish I did. (01:21:26):
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Jason: And then another point that had come up was looking at dear Emily Trebensky (01:21:29):
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Jason: and kind of what happened to her during her term as president of ALA. (01:21:36):
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Jason: And she talks about this in her forward audience at home. (01:21:40):
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Jason: If you read nothing else in the book, read her forward, because I think that (01:21:45):
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Jason: that's really the threat that we're facing is, you know, ALA itself did not (01:21:49):
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Jason: stand behind our president. (01:21:54):
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Jason: You know she was old she was censored she was (01:21:55):
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Jason: put in a corner she helped they practically tried to shove her back in (01:21:59):
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Jason: the closet um and jordan had kind of had (01:22:01):
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Jason: put this in our text thread this tension between (01:22:04):
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Jason: i've done nothing wrong and i shouldn't have done this and it circles back to (01:22:07):
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Jason: that quote from earlier that a good librarian doesn't jeopardize his library (01:22:14):
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Jason: and so are our actions as librarians are they causing harm to our libraries (01:22:19):
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Jason: you know is The actions of, you know, (01:22:24):
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Jason: Emily, dear Emily Drabinski, you know, which has unfortunately cast a pall on ALA. (01:22:28):
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Jason: You know, how long a shadow is that going to cast over libraries in this country? (01:22:33):
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Jordan: And I think we have something in our, again, our building and defending chapter (01:22:40):
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Jordan: where we essentially try to reframe the cliche about a good library has something (01:22:42):
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Jordan: to offend everybody to a good library represents its entire community. (01:22:46):
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Jordan: It's not about offending people. (01:22:51):
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Jordan: It's about making sure that everybody feels represented and welcome. (01:22:52):
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Jay: Yeah. And I was just going to say it is it has been this podcast position since (01:22:56):
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Jay: that'll happen that it is cool and great that Emily is a Marxist and a lesbian (01:23:00):
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Jay: and she should be loud and proud about both of those things. (01:23:06):
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Jay: And no one should have been going, no, she's fine to be president. (01:23:09):
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Jay: Like, no, it's cool that she's both of those things. And I feel like we didn't (01:23:12):
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Jay: see enough people in this profession stand behind her and say, (01:23:16):
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Jay: no, it's cool that she is both of those things. (01:23:21):
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Jay: It is okay that she is both of those things at the same time and that she is open about that. (01:23:23):
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Sadie: We voted her because we wanted her to be these things. (01:23:29):
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Jay: Yes. I believe she was the only candidate for president that we've ever had (01:23:33):
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Jay: on because we generally don't care about ALA shit. (01:23:38):
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Jay: But like i wouldn't be the librarian i (01:23:42):
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Jay: am today without emily drabinsky like i i cite (01:23:45):
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Jay: queer in the catalog and everything i fucking do like she's (01:23:48):
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Jay: like my hero i love her and like (01:23:52):
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Jay: it was the coolest shit in the world when she was on here (01:23:55):
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Jay: and yeah like it was so shocking to (01:23:58):
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Jay: me that more people were doing that no it's okay (01:24:01):
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Jay: like she's fine she's not a groomer like it's (01:24:04):
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Jay: fine we're not socialists we're not communists have been (01:24:07):
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Jay: said of standing behind what she said and saying it's okay that she's those (01:24:09):
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Jay: things like yeah it was bad of our profession to not stand behind her and i (01:24:12):
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Jay: think that more generally when we're because a theme that runs through the book (01:24:17):
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Jay: is again this disgust towards queer people is the driving force of all. (01:24:22):
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Jason: Of these other things in the culture as far as, you know, they might try to defund your local power. (01:24:28):
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Jay: Plant co-op because they have a DEI statement. I mean, this is a really, you know, I'm a wobbly. (01:24:35):
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Jason: I'm always going to go back to industrial unionism. You know, why not have, you know, a. (01:24:42):
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Jordan: Conversation with all the other public service. (01:24:49):
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Jay: Workers who are under threat? You know, just because libraries and information (01:24:51):
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Jay: source doesn't mean you can't work, (01:24:57):
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Jay: service or anything else that's going to have a clean environment. (01:25:07):
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Jay: It's going to be a target. Make rents. (01:25:10):
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Jay: But yeah, the thing has always been, it's cool. Like, gay people are cool, (01:25:14):
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Jay: was of what we were saying at the time. (01:25:18):
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Jay: That should be the response to saying there's gay stuff in your library, (01:25:20):
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Jay: saying, yeah, gay people are cool. (01:25:24):
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Sadie: We fucking rock. Yeah. (01:25:25):
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Jay: I am trying to recruit. (01:25:30):
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Jay: You're right. (01:25:34):
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Sadie: Could be one of the, you know, is one of the ongoing threads of this podcast. (01:25:37):
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Jason: Like no i. (01:25:44):
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Jay: Am a crazy pervert you're right about that and that's okay. (01:25:46):
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Sadie: So we've gone a little long but i think we covered everything we wanted to so (01:25:53):
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Sadie: i'm really glad that you both. (01:25:58):
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Jason: People can look for any anywhere (01:26:05):
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Jason: they can follow you don't follow me (01:26:08):
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Jason: i'm okay with yeah i'm salty i post (01:26:11):
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Jason: pictures of cats on my social media usually (01:26:17):
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Jason: my cats i i've i've so checked (01:26:20):
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Jason: out of social media these days i've really (01:26:23):
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Jason: just since november i've checked out of every fucking thing (01:26:26):
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Jason: and have just focused on the work because that's (01:26:29):
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Jason: hard that's tough enough right now i'll say that (01:26:33):
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Jason: jordan and i i alluded to this earlier but (01:26:36):
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Jason: we're already deep in our next project maybe y'all (01:26:39):
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Jason: will bring us back for that we are co-editing a (01:26:42):
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Jason: two-volume book about the role and place that jk rowling and the harry potter (01:26:45):
undefined

Jason: wizarding world has post 2020 (01:26:52):
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Jason: and you know her whole unmasking as just a terrifying, terrible bigot. (01:26:56):
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Jay: Nice. The queen of Turf Island. (01:27:03):
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Jason: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. We'll have you. (01:27:06):
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Jordan: Back on to talk about that. This project, like, we are, like, (01:27:09):
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Jordan: we finished the censorship book, and we're excited that's going on, but, like, (01:27:13):
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Jordan: My mind is like exploding every day when I look at the list of things like so (01:27:17):
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Jordan: we have like 50 contributions to this Harry Potter book ranging like all over the spectrum. (01:27:21):
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Jordan: It's incredible. Like, I'm so excited about this project. (01:27:26):
undefined

Jordan: Like the censorship book is I'm happy that we did this. But like the Harry Potter (01:27:29):
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Jordan: one is going to be next level just because it just coalesces so many different (01:27:32):
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Jordan: like it's like this prismatic thing about libraries. (01:27:36):
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Jordan: Right. Like there's, you know, like the well-natured, you know, (01:27:39):
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Jordan: like liberalism of, oh, Harry Potter, you know, childhood literacy and everything (01:27:42):
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Jordan: versus what happened in 2020. (01:27:45):
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Jordan: And like, it feels, it feels like it feels emblematic of something. (01:27:47):
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Jordan: And I'm, we're writing, we're editing this book, I think, in part to find out (01:27:52):
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Jordan: what that is. So there's our little preview of that project. (01:27:55):
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Jay: My chapter would be Ursula Le Guin's right there. (01:27:58):
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Jordan: Yes. (01:28:02):
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Jay: Is what my chapter would be. (01:28:05):
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Jason: I i think actually i'm co-authoring it we're i'm gonna do like an annotated (01:28:08):
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Jason: bib of you know don't do harry potter look at these as alternatives okay. (01:28:12):
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Jay: Yeah it really always was weird when other people in the library were like we're gonna have a. (01:28:18):
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Jason: Harry potter themed uh extended hours for finals and it's like do you not google (01:28:25):
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Jason: anything about this person like what what what's going on here like i i get that. (01:28:31):
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Jay: Everyone's age regressing but come on man read another book it's like terrible (01:28:38):
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Jay: people can make good art harry potter's is also not good art though yeah jk (01:28:44):
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Jay: rowling is not one of them. (01:28:49):
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Jason: Yeah we're co-editing this book with with another colleague of mine current (01:28:50):
undefined

Jason: colleague of jordan's and we have like this this group chat and they both recently (01:28:58):
undefined

Jason: tackled reading Harry Potter, (01:29:04):
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Jason: Jordan, for the first time, and just, like, his commentary through that journey. (01:29:06):
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Jay: It was fucking awful. (01:29:11):
undefined

Jason: Yeah, he couldn't even finish. (01:29:13):
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Jay: You saint. (01:29:15):
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Jason: He couldn't even finish. I've read them several times, so like, (01:29:17):
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Jason: before the whole Turfism. (01:29:21):
undefined

Jason: So I actually, I did try to reread it in preparation for this, and I just couldn't. (01:29:24):
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Jason: I couldn't. I couldn't get back into it. (01:29:30):
undefined

Jay: Hmm. (01:29:33):
undefined

Jason: All right. Well, thank you both. Thank y'all so much. (01:29:35):
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Jordan: Thank you. (01:29:39):
undefined

Jay: Oh, thank you. (01:29:39):
undefined

Sadie: Thanks for coming on. (01:29:41):
undefined

Jason: I was looking at y'all's previous podcast and like, just really flipping out (01:29:43):
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Jason: when I saw some of the ones that y'all done, like the leather archives and then (01:29:48):
undefined

Jason: interviewing one of the hosts of bad gaze. (01:29:52):
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Jason: Like that is my go-to podcast when I'm doing road trips. (01:29:55):
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Jason: So I like Jordan and I, we were just, we were just, spinning at the thought (01:30:01):
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Jason: of doing this. So thank you. (01:30:06):
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Jordan: I saw that you guys did an episode about Kiarostami's close-up, (01:30:08):
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Jordan: and I am the world's biggest Kiarostami fan, so I was like, I'm going to get that tomorrow morning. (01:30:11):
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Jay: Half of this podcast is like, hey, we don't have an episode. (01:30:17):
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Jay: Jay, which weird art house film can you try to force into a podcast context? (01:30:20):
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Jay: I'm like, I got close-up. Let's go. (01:30:24):
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Jordan: My husband will not let me watch Certified Copy anymore because he's so sick (01:30:26):
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Jordan: of me watching that movie. (01:30:29):
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Jason: Jordan's partner, he is so. (01:30:32):
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Jay: Long-suffering because Jordan and his esoteric taste in films it's hilarious incredible. (01:30:34):
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Jordan: The Criterion Closet Boyfriend yeah. (01:30:42):
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Jay: Yeah it was Criterion Movie Boyfriend it was like an Instagram reel of some (01:30:47):
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Jay: chick being like I'm dating a Criterion guy, (01:30:53):
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Jay: so you watch it for fake and I was like I make people watch it for fake, (01:30:57):
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Jay: but jay has good taste in movies so it's fine that's true y'all are both lovely (01:31:06):
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Jay: please come out again to know about harry potter and and that'll be great or (01:31:11):
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Jay: just any other things y'all are great yeah this. (01:31:16):
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Jason: Was great i i really enjoyed this (01:31:20):
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Jason: and keep up the good work i i've really enjoyed this experience always. (01:31:22):
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Sadie: Happy to hear that good night. (01:31:28):
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148 - Censorship is a Drag feat. Jason and Jordan

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}148 - Censorship is a Drag feat. Jason and Jordan