November 29, 2023 • 37 mins
Let's take a journey together, diving deep into the complexities of our interracial, queer, and gentle parenting relationship. We're peeling back the layers on difficult conversations and experiences that arise from navigating race, gender, privilege, and parenting, all while managing chronic pain and neurodivergence.
Are you a true ally, or do you sidestep the necessary conversations? We're challenging the concept of allyship within the queer community, offering insights from our personal experiences. We pose the question: what does real allyship look like? We're not just talking – we're encouraging active participation in the fight for a more inclusive, equal society. Let's take a stand against performative allyship and work towards genuine change.
We're celebrating the beauty of queer identities and advocating for acceptance and love in the face of differences. Our guest, Spencer Helms, joins us to share their journey towards self-love and acceptance of their non-binary identity. They share the joys and challenges of their interracial relationship, their struggle with societal expectations, and their peace with God. And we're not stopping there - we're taking on children's literature, pushing for representation of diverse families and identities, because every child deserves to see their story told. Join us in our fight for acceptance, representation, and above all, love. [END SHOW NOTES]
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
From the other side of toxic Christianity.
I found myself faced with onequestion, now, what this podcast
is about that question?
We have conversations withfolks who are asking themselves
the same things.
We're picking up the pieces ofa fractured and fragmented faith
.
We're finding treasure in whatthe church called trash, beauty
(00:21):
and solidarity in people andplaces we were told to fear,
reject and dismiss.
I'm Tamise Spencer Helms, andthis is Life After Levelling.
What's up everybody?
Welcome back to another episodeof Life After Levelling.
I'm your host, tamise SpencerHelms, and I'm joined by the one
and the only Alison DietrichSpencer Helms.
(00:45):
Love of my Life, my A-SpoonCoon, my Sweet, sweet well, I've
never tried sweetheart my, yeah, I don't know what are
non-gendered terms of endearment?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.
Yeah, my bae, bae, we have aspecial episode.
Was it come out once a month?
Every other week, I don'tremember.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
You forgot to do that part.
Bae, you forgot to do that part.
I don't do that.
Bae, bae, bae, bae Cool.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Come on, bae, all right, so, moving on, we have a
special and we talk about ourlife and I think today I'm kind
of talking about what it meansto be an ally, and I'm going to
be focusing on me in the senseof what I can speak to.
I can't speak to yourexperience, I can't speak to
(01:49):
being a person of color, a blackperson, and I can speak to my
marginalization is what I'mtrying to say but we have had
lots of conversation about whatit means to be in an interracial
marriage, for both non-binaryin different ways.
And we're parenting, we'regentle parenting, we're doing
attachment parenting.
We have different preferences.
(02:11):
We have a very rowdy dog who islike Bae, can you let us what
is that?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
is that my charger?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yep Life.
Life is always hopping overhere.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
That's all I can say, and we're talking about it, but
I mean more than that, like Ithink, what I think we've
realized in our conversationsabout spirituality, about
growing up or at least beingmost of our adult lives
Christian.
We have those intersections.
We've got your chronic pain,your neurodivergence.
(02:44):
We've got black conversations,white conversations,
conversations about oppression,olympics and what does that mean
?
Transphobia and ableism and allof these ways that these
conversations are happening inthe midst of our relationship.
What does it mean to still haveto interact with my abuser
Because my kid's father is stillalive?
(03:06):
Those are types of things thatwe navigate, that we work
through and I think I don't knowsometimes, based on the last
episode that we did, I thinkpeople are interested in the
ways that we're kind of learningand walking some of this out.
So we're starting a show thatis only for patrons, right, and
it's once a month.
You said, bae, yeah, once Idon't remember, it happens.
(03:30):
Let's just say it'll be a week'sworth it happens on a
semi-regular basis and we'rejust going to talk about life,
about what's coming up, maybeeven stuff that we thought about
that week, because, shout outto Crystal, we even fight a lot
better.
Couple's therapy is great.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Couple's therapist.
They're not married yet.
You want to get married.
What was it they used to likechurches do?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I'm not saying it's bad being a marital counseling.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, but it's like you are a counselor, you're an
counselor and then the post wassuper helpful.
Yeah, and talking aboutespecially, we have very honest
conversations.
I hate when people are like,well, I'm married to a black
person, as if that gives them anexcuse because I'm like me too.
Guess what?
I hate being confronted with mywhiteness every day.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
You actually get confronted with it more right.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, I have to do deeper work, and that doesn't
mean I can talk any better, Ijust know how deep it goes.
And actually I don't know howdeep it goes because sometimes
I'm like god damn it, therecomes again.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
But on the flip side of that, my experience has been
I've never been in love.
In love and committed fully andraising a kid and married to a
white person.
They've always been a group ofpeople who were always a few
steps removed from my personallife and from intimacy in a lot
(04:54):
of ways.
So dealing with whiteness,dealing with whiteness, was
always very external.
It wasn't like I'm having tograpple with the ways that I
dismiss areas that you'remarginalized, where you
experience marginalization,because I'm so trying to come
(05:14):
after white Jesus and whitenessthat I haven't realized that
there are ways that whitenesshas shown up in me being really
misogynistic at times, orableist or transphobic and all
of those things.
So those are the conversationsthat we get in about how do we
navigate and become the bestversion of ourselves in the
midst of a family and arelationship with so many
(05:39):
intersections?
I mean, if we go to Target,it's hard to know whether we're
getting looked at because we'requeer or interracial, or we're
both masks or we're a gentleparent, like I mean it's hard to
know like which marginalizationare we being judged on or
rejected by today.
And so I think that thoseconversations are a lot of fun
(06:01):
to have, and so we're just gonnahave them on air for patrons.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
We just have these really deep conversations about
things and I think we're justgonna.
We decided one day like, hey,let's stick a mic in our faces
and see what happens and butkind of leading from that
talking about with this seasonit's been really great and I've
loved there's been moments wherepeople say things that you
(06:28):
could kind of take away likethank you, okay, you're welcome
If you're gonna be an ally, likeseeing the split that bisexual
people can have of what thatlooks like to not be one or the
other and fully accepted, orsome great things from E about
how same for me you sociallyconditioned as a white woman
(06:54):
growing up, so you still havethat in you and the
conversations we have and kindof applies to this is like it's
not an oppression Olympics.
I'm not trying to be like mybutton's bigger than yours.
If I can ignore it or if I giveyou enough of a sob story, I
can oppress you.
(07:15):
And I was not in a lot of queerspaces until we were dating,
partially because I came outduring the beginning of the
pandemic, but you pretty quicklyhelped me see like they're very
white spaces and they're notsuper open.
So I'm not open but they dothink about like okay, yes, we
(07:36):
are queer, but you are not blackand queer.
You are queer, we're not transand queer, and I've experienced
that, I've had to learn justbecause you're going to a queer
event does not mean you won'tget misgendered and all of those
fun stuff.
Just don't assume.
So I think, like I've beenthinking about this a lot,
(07:58):
because I'm a fan, I just assoon as it comes out, I'm
listening to it on the waythey're from work and because I
have like a decent commute, I'llthen kind of think in my head
you said you wanted to do anepisode with me and I kept.
Allyship came coming up.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So I have a lot.
What's your favorite episode?
First, we favor two episodes,three episodes a season.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I don't know and I don't think that's fair to
anyone.
They were all great, so let'sjust leave it there, but I think
that's going back.
Like you can just stop me, mylittle neurodivergent brain that
goes on tangent.
Someone wants to finisheverything.
I know we all have a set amountof time.
(08:44):
Excuse me, I've had a cold, I'mjust getting over it and anyway
.
So, allyship, the things I wasthinking of and I'm just gonna
kind of go off of them right now, kind of my teacher slash group
therapy person, like I'm justgonna, I'm just going to talk, I
don't know how to say it, heybuddy, I'm Sapio, so we might
(09:07):
hit pause.
And I probably shouldn't saywhat I always say on air about
my I love that you can say it onthe other show, the Patreon
show.
Yep, oh, anyway.
So, yes, allyship.
(09:27):
I think about 10 years ago Iheard someone speak on this I'm
such a random like how I heardthem and but one thing stuck
with me was that you shouldnever call yourself an ally, but
other people should assign thatto you.
(09:49):
Because what does Allyshipreally mean?
Like?
Is there an actual definition,quantification, and so when
people say ally, a lot of timesI feel like it's being given as
an excuse or an out.
You know well, I'm an ally.
Okay, cool, you're an ally, butyou're not being one right now
and you've just kind ofdismissed the conversation and I
(10:11):
really wish I could rememberher name.
I heard someone else recentlysay when you call yourself or
when you're being an ally,you're still holding the power.
You still have all the power.
You need to be, you need tohave deference, you know.
So you need to give up thatpower to the person.
(10:31):
And it's kind of this I'm gonnacall my way down, call your way
up Again.
I don't want to take credit forthat.
I heard somebody else say that,but I've been thinking about
how it really.
What would it mean to say Iwill, I'm willing to go as as
low as society has put you.
That is lower than I should be,you know, because you might be
oppressed too for supportingpeople in order for us both to
(10:55):
rise up.
Because what if everybody?
That's the only way thesystem's gonna change.
I'm gonna use my money.
As a white person, I have a lotof social capital that the
black community does not have.
So how am I gonna use my socialcapital?
Am I going to give to somethinglike I don't know, subculture
(11:17):
to help students get subcultureSubculture?
Pippa, pippa, pippa, pippa.
But it really is that like whatam I gonna do?
Am I going to be willing evento put my life in danger if I
need be?
And I think about you, know, ifyou have any connection to
(11:39):
Christianity or the belief that,like Jesus is God that they
sent their child here to earthto make it a better place.
I don't agree with the wholesynatomic thing, but whatever
way you look at it.
Jesus' death had an impact.
He was willing to go to deathto make the world a better place
(12:02):
.
Yeah, that's fair.
So God does this.
Why am I not doing this too?
I think you can even have sometheological reasons for it.
But so, starting there, andlike I said, what is an ally?
(12:25):
How can you call yourself that?
What does it require?
And I think it's less about canI call myself that or am I
living a life worthy of beingseen as doing the work?
And, like I said, that work isdeep, because even if I get out
of the burning building, there'sstill smoke in my lungs.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Okay, babe.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Bars and I wanna speak directly, I think, to
those like.
We've heard a lot ofexperiences of people who are
actually queer or trans, and Iwanna speak for our community in
the sense of like how, ifyou're listening to this and
you're not part of the community, how you can be an ally,
(13:10):
because I think for queer people, particularly those who come
from like, spiritual Christianbackground, that insular, you
know, I didn't even know beinggay wasn't a choice.
I was part of what.
I could suppress it.
I was told it was a choice, soit was all on me and when I came
(13:32):
out, I lost a lot.
I lost a lot of connections andpeople.
You too, you lost money overthis.
You know you lost so much, Ilost so much, and I think that
is a common experience and Ihave talked to a lot of people
(13:54):
who walk the same road as I doand I think, for maybe, if your
marginalization is more of afamily type thing, like being a
person of color, your familyexperience is the same thing and
you have to navigate it frombirth or from a young age and so
you find your connections.
(14:14):
Yeah Well, I'm a 30 and I'vehad not 30 now, but when I came
out I was 30.
And what do I do?
I've got a.
I don't have support.
Thankfully I had a few andwe've become family and it's
incredible, but I lost my family.
I lost half my family.
(14:35):
Thank God I have a big familyand a few of them stayed, but
people have come to believe me.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, buddy, just losing half of them.
Joke is, you still got kind oflike a normal, regular size.
You got a lot of siblings.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I do Not as many not as smaller compared to the
homeschool movement.
Let's just be family.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
That's what I'm saying You're shiny, happy
people with Jason.
Let's keep it real.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yes, yes, very much.
So we.
I am now to the point where Idon't believe that there's one
side or the other.
Right, there's been side A,side B, all these other.
No, I am a human.
You do not get to decide myhumanity, Cause I think allies
like society has suppressedpeople so much that people think
(15:20):
they're an ally for seeing you,saying you should have basic
human rights, or seeing you ashuman, and that's not.
That is the bare minimum.
So I'm like no, the bareminimum now is that I get to be
myself.
The bare minimum is that youdon't get to tell me I'm wrong.
(15:40):
I'm not wrong.
You don't get to tell me that,but I will respect the fact that
your religion says I cannot.
We're not even your religioncause, I'm sorry, Christianity
does not say that.
Your tradition says I cannot bemyself why Jesus?
Yes, fake Jesus cannot be myself, but I and I know so many
(16:02):
people that are willing to walkthat line.
It's not a support.
I'm willing to walk the linewhere we agree to disagree and
what's amazing is the personputting me down won't do that.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
And I have spent so many days I think it was Kyle
who said previously in hisepisode like thinking about this
daily.
I think about this daily, Igrieve daily.
I watch nieces and nephews beborn that I will probably never
get to meet.
I watch family events happenthat I can't go to, friendships
(16:38):
lost, things that don't happen,and it breaks my heart when I
have sometimes boundariesbecause I will protect my family
first, but I don't care.
I just want you to agree, todisagree and to love each other.
I am willing to love you as youare.
Why can't you love me as I am?
Like I'm willing to love you.
If you wanna be an asshole, whycan't you love me?
(17:00):
Because I'm doing my best lifeand I'm not calling any one
particular person an asshole,but we definitely know how
people can act towards queerpeople and they can be assholes,
and indeed so I think for thosewho want to be affirming and
want to be allies, I think youneed to know we set such a slow
(17:20):
bar for what it means to beaffirming.
If you're like, oh yeah, gaymarriage, whatever, but then
when we go and we have familiesand our children go to school
with yours, my child can't learnabout it now.
And I mean some are and they'relike oh yeah, my whatever.
But I think there's an amountof like, acceptance is how we
(17:40):
see it instead of celebration.
And I get, people can go toofar the other way, but can they?
Because, I'm sorry, I almostlost my life over this.
So I'm gonna celebrate mebecause maybe me celebrating me
is gonna allow a kid to live.
I'm gonna be my full selfbecause I see too many of me's
(18:01):
in the acute psych ward justhaving tried to end their life
Like we deserve to live, and I'mgonna live out loud and proud
Hope one day Harlem doesn't haveto come out and can just bring
home whoever she wants or canjust use whatever pronouns she
wants.
Sure, do I think that we're alltechnically non binary and we
(18:22):
just can use whatever pronouns?
Yeah, do I think that there's alittle too many labels?
Yes, but you know what?
If it makes you happy and ithelps you find community, go for
it.
I will celebrate you.
If you wanna be a cis whitewoman, go for it.
Well, you can't really chooseyour whiteness, but don't be a
white woman, be whatevernational Norwegian.
(18:42):
Yeah, I will celebrate you.
That is who you are Like.
Just think on the flip side.
Think about I think it was youand me on the episode having
that conversation about beingyour true self.
But you should be excited whensomeone comes out to you,
celebrate them and I just one ofthe most helpful things someone
(19:04):
said to me was you don't haveto let someone process their
grief about you.
With you and I've had peopleI've only known you, as are you
here Something happened.
Yeah, okay, I've only known youas this gender, this name, this
(19:28):
whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
And I know we've had that conversation.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, you had that of a little bit of a grieving
process.
But yeah, you were likewhatever, whatever is your true
self.
I want to meet that.
Yeah, I know, I know, I know, Iknow you were like partie.
How do I吗?
You know, how do I marry before?
Speaker 1 (19:50):
My mother and son are my best friends, their revving,
and family members too.
So, yeah, that, so it's exactlywhat happened.
You know, then she?
I mean you know like you can goto their legitopity, you can
make your guy talk, make themlove you, um, but I mean we, we
love you more than you.
(20:11):
We were like a ghost.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah.
Or even when you were like, hey, I think that I'm non-binary, I
want to live into mymasculinity, I was excited
because you get to be you.
And when you say, how do I lookin this?
And you wore a men's buttondown and more masculine shorts
and a backwards hat, like you'rewearing now, honestly, the look
(20:39):
on your face made you moreattractive.
I mean, you look hot, I'm justgoing to say.
But I think it's the way tobury yourself and you feel and I
used to hate clothes and nowI'm like, ooh, what am I going
to wear today?
Because I'm wearing my trueself and I used to put myself
down all the time.
I'd get upset and dysregulatedand I would say my dead name is
(21:02):
a bitch.
And then, when I changed myname, I got upset and my dead
name came out of my mouth and itmade me like I hated myself.
I love me.
Now I'm still learning to loveme.
I've always been me.
You know way back, I knew who Iwas and it got like
systematically pulled out of me.
(21:22):
So you need to know, as astraight or a cis person, that
you also need to celebrate usand who we are and we need this
round.
It's not a and it's not like oh, I want my kid to be gay
Because you're still notsupporting the.
Let them be who they are, yeah,and you need to understand that
(21:45):
.
But if it's not hurting anyone,let them be their identity
Right, but to be themselves.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And figure it out.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yeah, and I think too I was thinking about this from
a parenting perspective too,because Harlem, in a way, is
connected to the queer community.
Yeah sure Auntie's an uncle shehas who are queer and her
parents are queer and it's funto see her perspective and like
(22:16):
two adults can be married, itdoesn't matter.
But then the struggle we haveto see representation in books.
We already have a struggle.
A lot of books.
If they have a black character,it's some side and you know, ok
, cool, we drew a blackcharacter.
It's a white person Writing abook and it's like oh, you just
(22:36):
made a stereotype.
And it's the same with most ofthe queer books out there, for
kids are like let's celebratethe different families, not just
a normal everyday life or funbook which shout out to both the
(22:56):
book and the TV show Not QuiteNarwhal, because they're so
brilliant, because it is writtenby a non-binary person, turn
into a TV show which is about anarwhal quote unquote who finds
out they're actually.
They call themselves a Cunicorn because they've looked
different from their family, butthey don't identify as the
unicorn, they don't identify asnarwhal, they're in between.
(23:18):
So they're a C unicorn andthey're just themselves and the
way their family is like oh, wealways knew something was
different.
Now, we love knowing there's aname.
Was just this mind blowing likeand what's beautiful?
What is beautiful aboutsupporting everyone and doing
whatever is best for the leastof these?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
And then when?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I think of these we have created the least of these.
It's the whole of societybenefits.
Come on, babe, now any outcastkid is going to connect with the
show.
I mean, let's just takedisabilities for a hot second.
When things are created to bemore accessible, everybody
benefits.
(23:59):
The sidewalks coming down sothat wheelchairs can get on, now
we can put it.
Strollers can go up and downeasily, now scooters can.
You've got the bumps on there toindicate that the road's coming
soon.
That's a safety thing.
There was this area where theyhad put like on the sidewalk
towards the side it's outside ofGallaudet University.
(24:21):
They had put a differentmaterial, so it was bumpy, and
the idea was, if two people arelooking at each other and
signing, they're signing andthey feel that they're not going
to go like fall into the road.
It's more safe.
But it's safer for everyonebecause people get distracted
(24:42):
and you know everything thatcomes up.
It's more.
Things are created and theneveryone goes.
Hey, I like that too.
I mean, think about a toilet.
Who wants to sit on a tiny asstoilet.
A lot of new homes just comewith ADA toilets because they're
so much more comfortable.
Sorry, I went on a tangentthere too, but I'm glad you're
(25:08):
in just society, reflectedsociety, and we're not just
special books here.
And I was thinking too.
I had this interaction recentlywith a mom who was like so, so
proud of herself for how liberalshe was and is a white family
and is telling us what to say.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Are they of the Caucasian persuasion by chance?
Speaker 2 (25:32):
And it's just like, yeah, well, well, my kids know
about this and my kids knowabout that and they know to
basically hate America and allof these things.
In my mind it was like, cool,but you're still indoctrinating
them.
Because, guess what?
I'm trying to teach my childthat we live on indigenous lands
and we're having thoseconversations.
She's still too young to makethe match with, like she thinks,
(25:54):
the Pledge of Allegiance is thebest thing ever, like the
newest DJ Khaled song.
We have to stop and we have tosay it, and it drives me nuts
and she won't.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Oh my gosh cringy.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, but I'm not going to indoctrinate my child.
I'm hoping she can learn.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
She puts it together.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
We live on on indigenous land.
We, the government, has done alot of this stuff and then she
can make her own decisions.
But there was so much cockinessand what was said and like they
get everyone's pronouns rightand I know I'm kind of probably
mocking the person I didn't, I'mnot trying to and like they had
a genuine heart in a sense.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
They always do.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Two things that came out of.
It was then there was aninteraction with you and another
person of color and that personof color was complimenting you
and saying I see you and I hearyou, and I was kind of standing
back so I was waiting for you,and this person had come up,
butted themselves into theconversation and then took it
(26:56):
over to say how they had notonly done exactly what you did
but done it more.
And then we're kind ofpersecuted for it because
someone told them to stop.
And I just saw the conversation.
I saw this moment between twopeople of color saying I see you
and it died.
I don't know if you rememberthat conversation.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, refresh my memory, what city?
Speaker 2 (27:17):
where we in.
They're most recent trip.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, okay, and it was interesting because I had
previously this person had beentalking to them and I was like
it just doesn't sit right whatyou're saying.
And I was like, oh, and this iswhere the problem with ally
ship comes.
This person is telling me whata great ally they are, how their
kids defend it and you knowwhat.
That's great that your kids areout there they're defending and
they're going to be friendswith my daughter.
(27:47):
That is cool, but what you aredoing is still being Can you
drop it yeah.
Like come on, man yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
So I think there's this amount where you use that
ally ship to keep the power.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I don't want to give up that.
I'm a white woman, so I'm goingto be a great white woman.
Who's who's going to be?
You know, your your caretakerhere, and I've also seen people
who genuinely teach theirchildren, but they don't teach
them.
This amount of like humility ofyou know, I think that's one
thing I always have to keep isthis humility.
(28:25):
If it could be me, I could be.
That white person I identify asGerman doesn't make me now
white still so in society.
Yeah, and I have to keep thishumility of like I can make
those mistakes I have done thatbefore.
I have been in times where iteven seems like it, like one
time I was like I'm going to bea white woman, I'm going to be a
(28:46):
white woman, I'm going to be awhite woman, I'm going to be a
white woman.
It even seems like it, like onetime I got nervous and you know
, one of your meetings and Itook over.
It was horrible.
Afterwards I was like I justassociated and just started
talking.
Yes, Whiteness was stillinvolved, and so what was
(29:09):
interesting about that Cause, Ithink then what can happen is to
raise these kids To think thatthey they're not any part of the
problem.
You need to reach your kids tosee that they are part of the
problem, and then they end upfinding you know, making the
(29:30):
same, they're making the samemistakes because you know like
no, you're teaching them theirstuff like Beacon.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
do not eat the microphone.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Teach them.
They're still white and anyway.
So I was gonna say the secondthing that happened was the next
day, Harlem, who has atransparent, has two non binary
parents, right.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Speaking of Harlem, we got to get it from the bus in
10 minutes.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Right.
And then when we got to the busshe goes up to our trans friend
and tells her she sounds like aman.
And then that friend handles itbeautifully and it was like
that that hurts, that's not true.
Came up and said is trying tojustify herself and then went
and had a pity party becausethis friend is not, was like I
(30:20):
don't really want to be aroundyou right now.
Basically, it was like I heardit and it was like this is the
most wonderful thing.
Like that person handled itbeautifully and my first
reaction is like my child, likeoh my God, how I was.
But I was like you know she'sstill curious and she's
wondering and we had to have aconversation later.
Well, why don't my friends havea daddy?
(30:41):
Not all people have daddy's.
Like you have literally saidsomebody's two moms who was like
not, it was just like mom and afriend and you assume.
But you still live in a worldwhere you're socially
conditioned for this and youknow we didn't handle.
I was like I'm going to handlethis in a way where it's going
(31:02):
to be a learning moment andseven embarrassment and knowing
like my child is going to besocially exposed and society is
going to hold greater amountsuntil she's she's made these
mistakes and learning compassioncomes from like a different
place than than pride and power,and so that also made me then
(31:27):
think of that person was likehere you are a straight cis
person saying that your kids areamazing allies.
Well, guess what?
I don't think you know howamazing they are, how, like what
you were doing awesome onteaching them acceptance cool,
but keep an amount of humility,because a child with transparent
(31:49):
Mm, hmm.
It's still influenced by thesociety.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I mean definitely.
They carry that whiteevangelical audacity right over
into progressivism andliberalism.
It's like yo.
What we're going for here isholding space for people's
humanity, humility, making moreroom at the table.
We're not going for we becomethe new us in them.
(32:15):
You're not just switching sidesand now the then becomes the us
.
That's not what we're doing.
We're trying to erase thebinary, not reinforce it.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, and I know that we have to finish up.
But one thing I was going tosay about that too is, if you
are a straight family, if you'rea cis family, expose your kids.
They do these tests of whitedolls and black dolls in
preference.
I'm sure if they did thosetests there would be a
preference for a mommy and adaddy when you play.
That's what kids do and I thinkthat just purposely by those
(32:48):
books, have those conversations.
Because also recently I met upwith an old friend and her kids
have exposure, some of theirparents sibling, I don't know
how to.
It's technically it's piblingsbecause and uncle don't always
(33:09):
fit, but they are exposed to.
Some of them are queer andtrans and all of that.
But there was no conversationabout me Are you a boy, are you
a girl?
And the boy was wearing pinkand the girl was wearing at one
(33:30):
point more mask.
Both of them just wore whatthey wanted or they do.
That was the first time we met.
I was thinking like wow, theyaccept.
It wasn't like, well, who areyou to, harlem and all this
stuff.
It just was and I think thatwould rather you be.
The kids don't need to knoweverything, they just need to be
(33:51):
like cool and I don't mind themasking questions if they're
like, okay, cool and they moveon.
And I think that's where yourgoal should be is like these are
humans.
Help me understand.
Oh, you're not binary.
Oh, you go by, they thempronouns.
Oh, she calls you know, be cool.
And then they run off and play,you know?
Just let your kids see me ashuman and know that society
(34:14):
doesn't as they get older.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah, but you're increasing their reference
points for what it means to behuman, and I think that's what
the goal of it is for show.
All right, before we go get onthe bus or go get her off the
bus, what are some takeawaysfrom this season that you want
people to take away, since youlisten to them all?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
This is a lot I've seen about this with atlaship to
.
There are a lot ofintersections.
You might think, oh great, I'mnot really good at this one.
Yet when you are is you'regrowing.
The goal is imperfectionism isgrowing because, you know, I can
get overwhelmed with like, oh,I need to be more disabled,
(35:02):
friendly kind of.
You know, oh, this and that,and you know, does everything I
have have captions and you know,am I being a good white person?
Kind of like no, no, no, I'mnot trying to be a good white
person, I'm trying to grow andstay humble.
So, grow and stay humble.
I love what you said about youknow, own your whiteness.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
You were socially conditioned.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
You can't change your past.
You can just change who you are.
I heard someone else say it'snot about your reaction, it's
not about your initial reaction,it's about what you do after
that, and I think that just makesome friends, be a friend and
(35:47):
let go of wanting to be seen asgood.
Just be yourself.
Just be good.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
I don't want to be seen as good.
Just be good yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
And lastly, because listening and hearing you say
you know there might be peoplesneak listening.
I think that people need toknow there can come a point
where you don't have to justifyyourself.
You can just be.
I spent so long reading everypossible book that I could to
justify myself using the Bible,when I can justify myself
(36:20):
because God made me and I am whoI am.
So, be yourself.
That would be my word to liveby.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Hey, I love you so much.
I lucked out we got to get thebaby off the bus.
But for those who want to kindof follow us in our journey of
love and marriage and thewildness that is the Spencer
Helms home, join us on what dowe call it?
Non-binary love in black andwhite, In the right.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Non-binary love in black and white.
See, we're so put together.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
We are.
We got it all together and ourhouse was clean yesterday and
now here we are, if you'rewatching.
Thank you everybody.
This has been a really, really,really great season.
Excited to have everybody backnext season.
We are going to announce thatin a couple of weeks, but for
now, thanks for listening toLife After Levin.
(37:13):
Thank you for listening thepicture.
Money in your heart is donateto Subquatcher Inc and clear the
path for black students today.
From the other side of toxic Christianity.
I found myself faced with onequestion, now, what this podcast
is about that question?
We have conversations withfolks who are asking themselves
the same things.
We're picking up the pieces ofa fractured and fragmented faith
.
We're finding treasure in whatthe church called trash, beauty
(00:21):
and solidarity in people andplaces we were told to fear,
reject and dismiss.
I'm Tamise Spencer Helms, andthis is Life After Levelling.
What's up everybody?
Welcome back to another episodeof Life After Levelling.
I'm your host, tamise SpencerHelms, and I'm joined by the one
and the only Alison DietrichSpencer Helms.
(00:45):
Love of my Life, my A-SpoonCoon, my Sweet, sweet well, I've
never tried sweetheart my, yeah, I don't know what are
non-gendered terms of endearment?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.
Yeah, my bae, bae, we have aspecial episode.
Was it come out once a month?
Every other week, I don'tremember.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
You forgot to do that part.
Bae, you forgot to do that part.
I don't do that.
Bae, bae, bae, bae Cool.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Come on, bae, all right, so, moving on, we have a
special and we talk about ourlife and I think today I'm kind
of talking about what it meansto be an ally, and I'm going to
be focusing on me in the senseof what I can speak to.
I can't speak to yourexperience, I can't speak to
(01:49):
being a person of color, a blackperson, and I can speak to my
marginalization is what I'mtrying to say but we have had
lots of conversation about whatit means to be in an interracial
marriage, for both non-binaryin different ways.
And we're parenting, we'regentle parenting, we're doing
attachment parenting.
We have different preferences.
(02:11):
We have a very rowdy dog who islike Bae, can you let us what
is that?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
is that my charger?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yep Life.
Life is always hopping overhere.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
That's all I can say, and we're talking about it, but
I mean more than that, like Ithink, what I think we've
realized in our conversationsabout spirituality, about
growing up or at least beingmost of our adult lives
Christian.
We have those intersections.
We've got your chronic pain,your neurodivergence.
(02:44):
We've got black conversations,white conversations,
conversations about oppression,olympics and what does that mean
?
Transphobia and ableism and allof these ways that these
conversations are happening inthe midst of our relationship.
What does it mean to still haveto interact with my abuser
Because my kid's father is stillalive?
(03:06):
Those are types of things thatwe navigate, that we work
through and I think I don't knowsometimes, based on the last
episode that we did, I thinkpeople are interested in the
ways that we're kind of learningand walking some of this out.
So we're starting a show thatis only for patrons, right, and
it's once a month.
You said, bae, yeah, once Idon't remember, it happens.
(03:30):
Let's just say it'll be a week'sworth it happens on a
semi-regular basis and we'rejust going to talk about life,
about what's coming up, maybeeven stuff that we thought about
that week, because, shout outto Crystal, we even fight a lot
better.
Couple's therapy is great.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Couple's therapist.
They're not married yet.
You want to get married.
What was it they used to likechurches do?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I'm not saying it's bad being a marital counseling.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, but it's like you are a counselor, you're an
counselor and then the post wassuper helpful.
Yeah, and talking aboutespecially, we have very honest
conversations.
I hate when people are like,well, I'm married to a black
person, as if that gives them anexcuse because I'm like me too.
Guess what?
I hate being confronted with mywhiteness every day.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
You actually get confronted with it more right.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, I have to do deeper work, and that doesn't
mean I can talk any better, Ijust know how deep it goes.
And actually I don't know howdeep it goes because sometimes
I'm like god damn it, therecomes again.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
But on the flip side of that, my experience has been
I've never been in love.
In love and committed fully andraising a kid and married to a
white person.
They've always been a group ofpeople who were always a few
steps removed from my personallife and from intimacy in a lot
(04:54):
of ways.
So dealing with whiteness,dealing with whiteness, was
always very external.
It wasn't like I'm having tograpple with the ways that I
dismiss areas that you'remarginalized, where you
experience marginalization,because I'm so trying to come
(05:14):
after white Jesus and whitenessthat I haven't realized that
there are ways that whitenesshas shown up in me being really
misogynistic at times, orableist or transphobic and all
of those things.
So those are the conversationsthat we get in about how do we
navigate and become the bestversion of ourselves in the
midst of a family and arelationship with so many
(05:39):
intersections?
I mean, if we go to Target,it's hard to know whether we're
getting looked at because we'requeer or interracial, or we're
both masks or we're a gentleparent, like I mean it's hard to
know like which marginalizationare we being judged on or
rejected by today.
And so I think that thoseconversations are a lot of fun
(06:01):
to have, and so we're just gonnahave them on air for patrons.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
We just have these really deep conversations about
things and I think we're justgonna.
We decided one day like, hey,let's stick a mic in our faces
and see what happens and butkind of leading from that
talking about with this seasonit's been really great and I've
loved there's been moments wherepeople say things that you
(06:28):
could kind of take away likethank you, okay, you're welcome
If you're gonna be an ally, likeseeing the split that bisexual
people can have of what thatlooks like to not be one or the
other and fully accepted, orsome great things from E about
how same for me you sociallyconditioned as a white woman
(06:54):
growing up, so you still havethat in you and the
conversations we have and kindof applies to this is like it's
not an oppression Olympics.
I'm not trying to be like mybutton's bigger than yours.
If I can ignore it or if I giveyou enough of a sob story, I
can oppress you.
(07:15):
And I was not in a lot of queerspaces until we were dating,
partially because I came outduring the beginning of the
pandemic, but you pretty quicklyhelped me see like they're very
white spaces and they're notsuper open.
So I'm not open but they dothink about like okay, yes, we
(07:36):
are queer, but you are not blackand queer.
You are queer, we're not transand queer, and I've experienced
that, I've had to learn justbecause you're going to a queer
event does not mean you won'tget misgendered and all of those
fun stuff.
Just don't assume.
So I think, like I've beenthinking about this a lot,
(07:58):
because I'm a fan, I just assoon as it comes out, I'm
listening to it on the waythey're from work and because I
have like a decent commute, I'llthen kind of think in my head
you said you wanted to do anepisode with me and I kept.
Allyship came coming up.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So I have a lot.
What's your favorite episode?
First, we favor two episodes,three episodes a season.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I don't know and I don't think that's fair to
anyone.
They were all great, so let'sjust leave it there, but I think
that's going back.
Like you can just stop me, mylittle neurodivergent brain that
goes on tangent.
Someone wants to finisheverything.
I know we all have a set amountof time.
(08:44):
Excuse me, I've had a cold, I'mjust getting over it and anyway
.
So, allyship, the things I wasthinking of and I'm just gonna
kind of go off of them right now, kind of my teacher slash group
therapy person, like I'm justgonna, I'm just going to talk, I
don't know how to say it, heybuddy, I'm Sapio, so we might
(09:07):
hit pause.
And I probably shouldn't saywhat I always say on air about
my I love that you can say it onthe other show, the Patreon
show.
Yep, oh, anyway.
So, yes, allyship.
(09:27):
I think about 10 years ago Iheard someone speak on this I'm
such a random like how I heardthem and but one thing stuck
with me was that you shouldnever call yourself an ally, but
other people should assign thatto you.
(09:49):
Because what does Allyshipreally mean?
Like?
Is there an actual definition,quantification, and so when
people say ally, a lot of timesI feel like it's being given as
an excuse or an out.
You know well, I'm an ally.
Okay, cool, you're an ally, butyou're not being one right now
and you've just kind ofdismissed the conversation and I
(10:11):
really wish I could rememberher name.
I heard someone else recentlysay when you call yourself or
when you're being an ally,you're still holding the power.
You still have all the power.
You need to be, you need tohave deference, you know.
So you need to give up thatpower to the person.
(10:31):
And it's kind of this I'm gonnacall my way down, call your way
up Again.
I don't want to take credit forthat.
I heard somebody else say that,but I've been thinking about
how it really.
What would it mean to say Iwill, I'm willing to go as as
low as society has put you.
That is lower than I should be,you know, because you might be
oppressed too for supportingpeople in order for us both to
(10:55):
rise up.
Because what if everybody?
That's the only way thesystem's gonna change.
I'm gonna use my money.
As a white person, I have a lotof social capital that the
black community does not have.
So how am I gonna use my socialcapital?
Am I going to give to somethinglike I don't know, subculture
(11:17):
to help students get subcultureSubculture?
Pippa, pippa, pippa, pippa.
But it really is that like whatam I gonna do?
Am I going to be willing evento put my life in danger if I
need be?
And I think about you, know, ifyou have any connection to
(11:39):
Christianity or the belief that,like Jesus is God that they
sent their child here to earthto make it a better place.
I don't agree with the wholesynatomic thing, but whatever
way you look at it.
Jesus' death had an impact.
He was willing to go to deathto make the world a better place
(12:02):
.
Yeah, that's fair.
So God does this.
Why am I not doing this too?
I think you can even have sometheological reasons for it.
But so, starting there, andlike I said, what is an ally?
(12:25):
How can you call yourself that?
What does it require?
And I think it's less about canI call myself that or am I
living a life worthy of beingseen as doing the work?
And, like I said, that work isdeep, because even if I get out
of the burning building, there'sstill smoke in my lungs.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Okay, babe.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Bars and I wanna speak directly, I think, to
those like.
We've heard a lot ofexperiences of people who are
actually queer or trans, and Iwanna speak for our community in
the sense of like how, ifyou're listening to this and
you're not part of the community, how you can be an ally,
(13:10):
because I think for queer people, particularly those who come
from like, spiritual Christianbackground, that insular, you
know, I didn't even know beinggay wasn't a choice.
I was part of what.
I could suppress it.
I was told it was a choice, soit was all on me and when I came
(13:32):
out, I lost a lot.
I lost a lot of connections andpeople.
You too, you lost money overthis.
You know you lost so much, Ilost so much, and I think that
is a common experience and Ihave talked to a lot of people
(13:54):
who walk the same road as I doand I think, for maybe, if your
marginalization is more of afamily type thing, like being a
person of color, your familyexperience is the same thing and
you have to navigate it frombirth or from a young age and so
you find your connections.
(14:14):
Yeah Well, I'm a 30 and I'vehad not 30 now, but when I came
out I was 30.
And what do I do?
I've got a.
I don't have support.
Thankfully I had a few andwe've become family and it's
incredible, but I lost my family.
I lost half my family.
(14:35):
Thank God I have a big familyand a few of them stayed, but
people have come to believe me.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, buddy, just losing half of them.
Joke is, you still got kind oflike a normal, regular size.
You got a lot of siblings.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I do Not as many not as smaller compared to the
homeschool movement.
Let's just be family.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
That's what I'm saying You're shiny, happy
people with Jason.
Let's keep it real.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yes, yes, very much.
So we.
I am now to the point where Idon't believe that there's one
side or the other.
Right, there's been side A,side B, all these other.
No, I am a human.
You do not get to decide myhumanity, Cause I think allies
like society has suppressedpeople so much that people think
(15:20):
they're an ally for seeing you,saying you should have basic
human rights, or seeing you ashuman, and that's not.
That is the bare minimum.
So I'm like no, the bareminimum now is that I get to be
myself.
The bare minimum is that youdon't get to tell me I'm wrong.
(15:40):
I'm not wrong.
You don't get to tell me that,but I will respect the fact that
your religion says I cannot.
We're not even your religioncause, I'm sorry, Christianity
does not say that.
Your tradition says I cannot bemyself why Jesus?
Yes, fake Jesus cannot be myself, but I and I know so many
(16:02):
people that are willing to walkthat line.
It's not a support.
I'm willing to walk the linewhere we agree to disagree and
what's amazing is the personputting me down won't do that.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
And I have spent so many days I think it was Kyle
who said previously in hisepisode like thinking about this
daily.
I think about this daily, Igrieve daily.
I watch nieces and nephews beborn that I will probably never
get to meet.
I watch family events happenthat I can't go to, friendships
(16:38):
lost, things that don't happen,and it breaks my heart when I
have sometimes boundariesbecause I will protect my family
first, but I don't care.
I just want you to agree, todisagree and to love each other.
I am willing to love you as youare.
Why can't you love me as I am?
Like I'm willing to love you.
If you wanna be an asshole, whycan't you love me?
(17:00):
Because I'm doing my best lifeand I'm not calling any one
particular person an asshole,but we definitely know how
people can act towards queerpeople and they can be assholes,
and indeed so I think for thosewho want to be affirming and
want to be allies, I think youneed to know we set such a slow
(17:20):
bar for what it means to beaffirming.
If you're like, oh yeah, gaymarriage, whatever, but then
when we go and we have familiesand our children go to school
with yours, my child can't learnabout it now.
And I mean some are and they'relike oh yeah, my whatever.
But I think there's an amountof like, acceptance is how we
(17:40):
see it instead of celebration.
And I get, people can go toofar the other way, but can they?
Because, I'm sorry, I almostlost my life over this.
So I'm gonna celebrate mebecause maybe me celebrating me
is gonna allow a kid to live.
I'm gonna be my full selfbecause I see too many of me's
(18:01):
in the acute psych ward justhaving tried to end their life
Like we deserve to live, and I'mgonna live out loud and proud
Hope one day Harlem doesn't haveto come out and can just bring
home whoever she wants or canjust use whatever pronouns she
wants.
Sure, do I think that we're alltechnically non binary and we
(18:22):
just can use whatever pronouns?
Yeah, do I think that there's alittle too many labels?
Yes, but you know what?
If it makes you happy and ithelps you find community, go for
it.
I will celebrate you.
If you wanna be a cis whitewoman, go for it.
Well, you can't really chooseyour whiteness, but don't be a
white woman, be whatevernational Norwegian.
(18:42):
Yeah, I will celebrate you.
That is who you are Like.
Just think on the flip side.
Think about I think it was youand me on the episode having
that conversation about beingyour true self.
But you should be excited whensomeone comes out to you,
celebrate them and I just one ofthe most helpful things someone
(19:04):
said to me was you don't haveto let someone process their
grief about you.
With you and I've had peopleI've only known you, as are you
here Something happened.
Yeah, okay, I've only known youas this gender, this name, this
(19:28):
whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
And I know we've had that conversation.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, you had that of a little bit of a grieving
process.
But yeah, you were likewhatever, whatever is your true
self.
I want to meet that.
Yeah, I know, I know, I know, Iknow you were like partie.
How do I吗?
You know, how do I marry before?
Speaker 1 (19:50):
My mother and son are my best friends, their revving,
and family members too.
So, yeah, that, so it's exactlywhat happened.
You know, then she?
I mean you know like you can goto their legitopity, you can
make your guy talk, make themlove you, um, but I mean we, we
love you more than you.
(20:11):
We were like a ghost.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah.
Or even when you were like, hey, I think that I'm non-binary, I
want to live into mymasculinity, I was excited
because you get to be you.
And when you say, how do I lookin this?
And you wore a men's buttondown and more masculine shorts
and a backwards hat, like you'rewearing now, honestly, the look
(20:39):
on your face made you moreattractive.
I mean, you look hot, I'm justgoing to say.
But I think it's the way tobury yourself and you feel and I
used to hate clothes and nowI'm like, ooh, what am I going
to wear today?
Because I'm wearing my trueself and I used to put myself
down all the time.
I'd get upset and dysregulatedand I would say my dead name is
(21:02):
a bitch.
And then, when I changed myname, I got upset and my dead
name came out of my mouth and itmade me like I hated myself.
I love me.
Now I'm still learning to loveme.
I've always been me.
You know way back, I knew who Iwas and it got like
systematically pulled out of me.
(21:22):
So you need to know, as astraight or a cis person, that
you also need to celebrate usand who we are and we need this
round.
It's not a and it's not like oh, I want my kid to be gay
Because you're still notsupporting the.
Let them be who they are, yeah,and you need to understand that
(21:45):
.
But if it's not hurting anyone,let them be their identity
Right, but to be themselves.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And figure it out.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yeah, and I think too I was thinking about this from
a parenting perspective too,because Harlem, in a way, is
connected to the queer community.
Yeah sure Auntie's an uncle shehas who are queer and her
parents are queer and it's funto see her perspective and like
(22:16):
two adults can be married, itdoesn't matter.
But then the struggle we haveto see representation in books.
We already have a struggle.
A lot of books.
If they have a black character,it's some side and you know, ok
, cool, we drew a blackcharacter.
It's a white person Writing abook and it's like oh, you just
(22:36):
made a stereotype.
And it's the same with most ofthe queer books out there, for
kids are like let's celebratethe different families, not just
a normal everyday life or funbook which shout out to both the
(22:56):
book and the TV show Not QuiteNarwhal, because they're so
brilliant, because it is writtenby a non-binary person, turn
into a TV show which is about anarwhal quote unquote who finds
out they're actually.
They call themselves a Cunicorn because they've looked
different from their family, butthey don't identify as the
unicorn, they don't identify asnarwhal, they're in between.
(23:18):
So they're a C unicorn andthey're just themselves and the
way their family is like oh, wealways knew something was
different.
Now, we love knowing there's aname.
Was just this mind blowing likeand what's beautiful?
What is beautiful aboutsupporting everyone and doing
whatever is best for the leastof these?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
And then when?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I think of these we have created the least of these.
It's the whole of societybenefits.
Come on, babe, now any outcastkid is going to connect with the
show.
I mean, let's just takedisabilities for a hot second.
When things are created to bemore accessible, everybody
benefits.
(23:59):
The sidewalks coming down sothat wheelchairs can get on, now
we can put it.
Strollers can go up and downeasily, now scooters can.
You've got the bumps on there toindicate that the road's coming
soon.
That's a safety thing.
There was this area where theyhad put like on the sidewalk
towards the side it's outside ofGallaudet University.
(24:21):
They had put a differentmaterial, so it was bumpy, and
the idea was, if two people arelooking at each other and
signing, they're signing andthey feel that they're not going
to go like fall into the road.
It's more safe.
But it's safer for everyonebecause people get distracted
(24:42):
and you know everything thatcomes up.
It's more.
Things are created and theneveryone goes.
Hey, I like that too.
I mean, think about a toilet.
Who wants to sit on a tiny asstoilet.
A lot of new homes just comewith ADA toilets because they're
so much more comfortable.
Sorry, I went on a tangentthere too, but I'm glad you're
(25:08):
in just society, reflectedsociety, and we're not just
special books here.
And I was thinking too.
I had this interaction recentlywith a mom who was like so, so
proud of herself for how liberalshe was and is a white family
and is telling us what to say.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Are they of the Caucasian persuasion by chance?
Speaker 2 (25:32):
And it's just like, yeah, well, well, my kids know
about this and my kids knowabout that and they know to
basically hate America and allof these things.
In my mind it was like, cool,but you're still indoctrinating
them.
Because, guess what?
I'm trying to teach my childthat we live on indigenous lands
and we're having thoseconversations.
She's still too young to makethe match with, like she thinks,
(25:54):
the Pledge of Allegiance is thebest thing ever, like the
newest DJ Khaled song.
We have to stop and we have tosay it, and it drives me nuts
and she won't.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Oh my gosh cringy.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, but I'm not going to indoctrinate my child.
I'm hoping she can learn.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
She puts it together.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
We live on on indigenous land.
We, the government, has done alot of this stuff and then she
can make her own decisions.
But there was so much cockinessand what was said and like they
get everyone's pronouns rightand I know I'm kind of probably
mocking the person I didn't, I'mnot trying to and like they had
a genuine heart in a sense.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
They always do.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Two things that came out of.
It was then there was aninteraction with you and another
person of color and that personof color was complimenting you
and saying I see you and I hearyou, and I was kind of standing
back so I was waiting for you,and this person had come up,
butted themselves into theconversation and then took it
(26:56):
over to say how they had notonly done exactly what you did
but done it more.
And then we're kind ofpersecuted for it because
someone told them to stop.
And I just saw the conversation.
I saw this moment between twopeople of color saying I see you
and it died.
I don't know if you rememberthat conversation.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, refresh my memory, what city?
Speaker 2 (27:17):
where we in.
They're most recent trip.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, okay, and it was interesting because I had
previously this person had beentalking to them and I was like
it just doesn't sit right whatyou're saying.
And I was like, oh, and this iswhere the problem with ally
ship comes.
This person is telling me whata great ally they are, how their
kids defend it and you knowwhat.
That's great that your kids areout there they're defending and
they're going to be friendswith my daughter.
(27:47):
That is cool, but what you aredoing is still being Can you
drop it yeah.
Like come on, man yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
So I think there's this amount where you use that
ally ship to keep the power.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I don't want to give up that.
I'm a white woman, so I'm goingto be a great white woman.
Who's who's going to be?
You know, your your caretakerhere, and I've also seen people
who genuinely teach theirchildren, but they don't teach
them.
This amount of like humility ofyou know, I think that's one
thing I always have to keep isthis humility.
(28:25):
If it could be me, I could be.
That white person I identify asGerman doesn't make me now
white still so in society.
Yeah, and I have to keep thishumility of like I can make
those mistakes I have done thatbefore.
I have been in times where iteven seems like it, like one
time I was like I'm going to bea white woman, I'm going to be a
(28:46):
white woman, I'm going to be awhite woman, I'm going to be a
white woman.
It even seems like it, like onetime I got nervous and you know
, one of your meetings and Itook over.
It was horrible.
Afterwards I was like I justassociated and just started
talking.
Yes, Whiteness was stillinvolved, and so what was
(29:09):
interesting about that Cause, Ithink then what can happen is to
raise these kids To think thatthey they're not any part of the
problem.
You need to reach your kids tosee that they are part of the
problem, and then they end upfinding you know, making the
(29:30):
same, they're making the samemistakes because you know like
no, you're teaching them theirstuff like Beacon.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
do not eat the microphone.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Teach them.
They're still white and anyway.
So I was gonna say the secondthing that happened was the next
day, Harlem, who has atransparent, has two non binary
parents, right.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Speaking of Harlem, we got to get it from the bus in
10 minutes.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Right.
And then when we got to the busshe goes up to our trans friend
and tells her she sounds like aman.
And then that friend handles itbeautifully and it was like
that that hurts, that's not true.
Came up and said is trying tojustify herself and then went
and had a pity party becausethis friend is not, was like I
(30:20):
don't really want to be aroundyou right now.
Basically, it was like I heardit and it was like this is the
most wonderful thing.
Like that person handled itbeautifully and my first
reaction is like my child, likeoh my God, how I was.
But I was like you know she'sstill curious and she's
wondering and we had to have aconversation later.
Well, why don't my friends havea daddy?
(30:41):
Not all people have daddy's.
Like you have literally saidsomebody's two moms who was like
not, it was just like mom and afriend and you assume.
But you still live in a worldwhere you're socially
conditioned for this and youknow we didn't handle.
I was like I'm going to handlethis in a way where it's going
(31:02):
to be a learning moment andseven embarrassment and knowing
like my child is going to besocially exposed and society is
going to hold greater amountsuntil she's she's made these
mistakes and learning compassioncomes from like a different
place than than pride and power,and so that also made me then
(31:27):
think of that person was likehere you are a straight cis
person saying that your kids areamazing allies.
Well, guess what?
I don't think you know howamazing they are, how, like what
you were doing awesome onteaching them acceptance cool,
but keep an amount of humility,because a child with transparent
(31:49):
Mm, hmm.
It's still influenced by thesociety.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I mean definitely.
They carry that whiteevangelical audacity right over
into progressivism andliberalism.
It's like yo.
What we're going for here isholding space for people's
humanity, humility, making moreroom at the table.
We're not going for we becomethe new us in them.
(32:15):
You're not just switching sidesand now the then becomes the us
.
That's not what we're doing.
We're trying to erase thebinary, not reinforce it.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, and I know that we have to finish up.
But one thing I was going tosay about that too is, if you
are a straight family, if you'rea cis family, expose your kids.
They do these tests of whitedolls and black dolls in
preference.
I'm sure if they did thosetests there would be a
preference for a mommy and adaddy when you play.
That's what kids do and I thinkthat just purposely by those
(32:48):
books, have those conversations.
Because also recently I met upwith an old friend and her kids
have exposure, some of theirparents sibling, I don't know
how to.
It's technically it's piblingsbecause and uncle don't always
(33:09):
fit, but they are exposed to.
Some of them are queer andtrans and all of that.
But there was no conversationabout me Are you a boy, are you
a girl?
And the boy was wearing pinkand the girl was wearing at one
(33:30):
point more mask.
Both of them just wore whatthey wanted or they do.
That was the first time we met.
I was thinking like wow, theyaccept.
It wasn't like, well, who areyou to, harlem and all this
stuff.
It just was and I think thatwould rather you be.
The kids don't need to knoweverything, they just need to be
(33:51):
like cool and I don't mind themasking questions if they're
like, okay, cool and they moveon.
And I think that's where yourgoal should be is like these are
humans.
Help me understand.
Oh, you're not binary.
Oh, you go by, they thempronouns.
Oh, she calls you know, be cool.
And then they run off and play,you know?
Just let your kids see me ashuman and know that society
(34:14):
doesn't as they get older.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah, but you're increasing their reference
points for what it means to behuman, and I think that's what
the goal of it is for show.
All right, before we go get onthe bus or go get her off the
bus, what are some takeawaysfrom this season that you want
people to take away, since youlisten to them all?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
This is a lot I've seen about this with atlaship to
.
There are a lot ofintersections.
You might think, oh great, I'mnot really good at this one.
Yet when you are is you'regrowing.
The goal is imperfectionism isgrowing because, you know, I can
get overwhelmed with like, oh,I need to be more disabled,
(35:02):
friendly kind of.
You know, oh, this and that,and you know, does everything I
have have captions and you know,am I being a good white person?
Kind of like no, no, no, I'mnot trying to be a good white
person, I'm trying to grow andstay humble.
So, grow and stay humble.
I love what you said about youknow, own your whiteness.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
You were socially conditioned.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
You can't change your past.
You can just change who you are.
I heard someone else say it'snot about your reaction, it's
not about your initial reaction,it's about what you do after
that, and I think that just makesome friends, be a friend and
(35:47):
let go of wanting to be seen asgood.
Just be yourself.
Just be good.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
I don't want to be seen as good.
Just be good yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
And lastly, because listening and hearing you say
you know there might be peoplesneak listening.
I think that people need toknow there can come a point
where you don't have to justifyyourself.
You can just be.
I spent so long reading everypossible book that I could to
justify myself using the Bible,when I can justify myself
(36:20):
because God made me and I am whoI am.
So, be yourself.
That would be my word to liveby.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Hey, I love you so much.
I lucked out we got to get thebaby off the bus.
But for those who want to kindof follow us in our journey of
love and marriage and thewildness that is the Spencer
Helms home, join us on what dowe call it?
Non-binary love in black andwhite, In the right.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Non-binary love in black and white.
See, we're so put together.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
We are.
We got it all together and ourhouse was clean yesterday and
now here we are, if you'rewatching.
Thank you everybody.
This has been a really, really,really great season.
Excited to have everybody backnext season.
We are going to announce thatin a couple of weeks, but for
now, thanks for listening toLife After Levin.
(37:13):
Thank you for listening thepicture.
Money in your heart is donateto Subquatcher Inc and clear the
path for black students today.
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