February 1, 2024 • 39 mins
When Dr. Christena Cleveland steps into the space of spiritual discourse, she carries with her an air of transformation that's both inspiring and deeply moving. Her journey, marked by a pilgrimage to the Black Madonna and the profound revelations documented in "God is a Black Woman," opens up a dialogue about spiritual liberation that transcends institutional confines. Together, we traverse the landscape of her evolution, from navigating the evangelical church's power imbalances to awakening to a deeper truth, offering listeners an intimate look at the quest for hope and the significance of embracing the fullness of one's body and spirituality.
Confronting the complexities of identity within the realm of spirituality presents its own set of challenges and triumphs. As I relate my own experiences with internalized misogyny and reconciling a non-binary identity with the divine feminine, Dr. Cleveland and I share an exchange that affirms the sacredness inherent in each of us. This conversation stretches beyond the roles we're often prescribed in white-dominated religious communities, shining a light on the necessity of finding internal validation and redefining what's traditionally considered sacred within our identities. Expect to be guided through a maze of resistance and pushback, and emerge with a reaffirmed belief in the inherent worth of blackness, femininity, and non-binary-ness.
Dr. Cleveland's insights serve as a beacon for those navigating their way through the complex tapestry of spirituality and identity, offering a path towards liberation that is both personal and universal.
Christena Cleveland, Ph.D. is a social psychologist, public theologian, author, and activist. She is the founder and director of the Center for Justice + Renewal which supports a more equitable world by nurturing skillful justice advocacy and the depth to act on it. An award-winning researcher and author, former professor at Duke University’s Divinity School, Dr. Cleveland is an avid student of embodied wisdom.
Dr. Cleveland’s Patreon learning community: https://www.patreon.com/cscleve
Dr. Cleveland’s website: https://www.christenacleveland.com/
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, what's up everybody?
Welcome back to this episode ofLife After Levin.
I'm your host, tamise SpencerHelms, and I'm joined by the one
and only Dr Christina Cleveland.
I'm gonna read the bio at theend of the episode, but I just
wanna introduce Dr Cleveland.
Have you say whatever you'rewanting people to know about you
today?
So then we can jump into thisepisode of how just really
(00:24):
grateful I am to you and whatyou've put out into the world so
welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you, it's an honor to be here.
Thank you for having me andyou're kind of from like the
before.
Yes, so it's nice the beforetime, so it's nice to connect
with people from the before timewho are also still in the after
time, Cause a lot of thosefolks wrote me some hate mail
and then pieced out out of mylife which I mean good riddance
(00:51):
but also there's a lot oftransition and change.
That happens when we go on aliberation journey and not
everyone is able to come with us, so it's nice to be on a
journey with you Likewise.
So, everyone.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I met Dr Cleveland.
I obviously knew who she was,but I was a part of the 2019, I
think cohort.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
CJR Before the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I know yes, right, and I mean literally had just
moved from Atlanta back toVirginia, had just gotten my kid
out of the NICU, and I don'tknow even what it was.
I think it might have been aconversation we had offline.
It was like some sort ofinteraction.
I was like I think I want tolearn in this direction from
here on out.
And then I got invited to dothe cohort, did the cohort and
(01:39):
learned about so many differentways of doing spirituality.
I mean, you introduced me toAngel Keota Williams, pixie
Light.
It was just like these ways ofbeing that initially felt new to
me but I think eventuallypretty much saved me out of an
abusive marriage.
So I was married when I came inand I was in a very, very
(02:00):
abusive marriage when I came in2019.
But I think that that time forme was so pivotal because it was
the first time anyone asked me.
I remember being in there andthinking are we about to come
with our theology and stuff likethat?
And we were just around thehouse talking about like clothes
and food.
And then you're like, all right, everybody, we're just gonna
listen to our bodies.
(02:21):
I was like, what Like?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
if the devil is a lie .
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I don't know.
Listen to our what.
I was talking about the body andevil I mean literally that was
the first time anyone invited mybody into any kind of spiritual
or religious space, and notthat that was a religious space,
but just it was the first timemy body was invited anywhere.
And so what I mean I end uptalking about in the book and
(02:47):
what I've been constantlytalking about is like that
initial it makes I was emotionalcoming into the thing.
So if I get emotional it's fine, but that initial experience
was the first time somebody saidyour body is a part of this
process, and so I'm just soappreciative to you for that.
And you've just written thisbook God is a Black woman, which
(03:12):
is just profoundly propheticand powerful, and I think I'd
love to talk a little bit about,like the pilgrimage that led up
to that and kind of the thesisbehind that and where it came
from.
Where did the book come from foryou?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, well, I think it came from this question that
I had is there any hope?
I mean, I think maybe you firstencountered me at Urbana, which
was, I think, in 2016,.
But I was sort of like peakevangelical house Negro, and so
(03:49):
I had worked for my early 30s tomy mid 30s to build a platform,
hopefully of positive influence.
I'd written a widely read bookfor the church.
I was doing so much to try tomake a difference in the
evangelical church didn'trealize at the time that I was
just getting played.
It became increasingly aware,but at the very beginning I just
(04:13):
thought oh, I just wanna helppeople.
I wanna be at thesemulti-ethnic church conferences
and help people.
I'm surely the only reason whythey aren't doing better is
because they don't know better.
Like that was because I'm avery earnest person, and so it's
like, oh, now I know better,Okay, I'm gonna do better, like
that.
But in over time I started torealize, oh, they, they, they
(04:36):
are actively rejecting the truthbecause they're holding on to
power.
And so I was basically as highas you could possibly go in the
evangelical world and still havea vagina.
It's like that part.
You know, I was, and actuallysomeone recently right around,
when I went on my Black Madonnapilgrimage, someone interviewed
me who was writing a book aboutwomen and power in the church,
(04:59):
and I was in the like outlierschapter.
Because their whole thesis oftheir book was that if you're a
woman and you want to have powerin the Christian church,
particularly the evangelicalchurch, you have to either be
married to a man who has poweror you have to be backed by an
institution that has power.
So like they had done all thisresearch where it's like, oh,
lisa Sharon Harper has a voicebecause she's backed by
(05:20):
sojourners, or like I forget hername but like the wife of the
mega church pastor in Chicago,it's like she has power but it's
because she's married to thismega church.
You know, so I was in the weirdochapter of like women who
randomly had some power, eventhough we weren't associated
with any man or institution.
Yeah, and so you know I wasdoing all the things.
(05:43):
But then, between the BlackLives Matter movement and Me Too
and Trump getting elected, Iwas just like, okay, this is a
dead end.
Like it was almost my spiritknew, but that was the writing
on the wall, the culmination ofall of those events.
So around 2015, 2016,.
At that point I was still.
(06:04):
I had like I was booking like18 months out.
So I was still speaking atthese events, even though I like
didn't believe any of thethings.
Like inside.
I'm praying during, like theworship time.
You know what I mean?
It's like these totally grosslyrics that I completely
disagree with.
(06:24):
But I'm here anyway cause Igotta make money.
Exactly, I had alreadycommitted.
So that's really.
I was just so disillusioned, sohurt, and I've just finally
woke up to the reality that Iwas just getting played, that I
was just a mascot.
I mean, it's kind of similar toMalcolm X's autobiography where
(06:46):
he's just like I'm just amascot here.
And MLK eventually realized yes, you know, when he went to the
Congo and was like, oh, liberalwhite people are still the worst
.
Okay, I actually need to startcaring about poor black people,
pure black people.
And then he was killed, youknow.
But you know it's interesting,cause my awakening was right
(07:07):
around the same time of MLK.
So I'm like, okay, I'm right ontime.
I'm like I'm in the 40s, I'venot thought about that?
Wow, no, okay, Cause you knowit's easy to think.
Not, I think time is anillusion anyway, but in a
linearity is obviously a figmentof the white patriarchal
imagination.
But it's, you know, it's niceto just be reminded.
(07:28):
Like we all, our journey issacred.
Yeah, no matter when you knowwhen we get to the truth.
But so I just was like I need,I need, I need.
I need an image of the divinethat relates to my experience as
a black woman.
And so that's why I went,that's why I started looking for
those images.
Pretty quickly I found theblack Madonna.
I was shocked that she's outthere and I hadn't heard of her.
(07:52):
I mean, I didn't grow upCatholic but still I mean she's
quite famous.
It felt, it felt like aconspiracy.
I hadn't heard of her,especially given how many white
Jesuses there are and how whiteJesus is completely not real.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, so I just so that, yeah, it was, but it was
desperation.
It was like can I believe that?
Like you know, we're taughtthat God is with us, but is.
God with us and who?
If so, who is that God?
And also I need an image ofthat guy Like I.
You know it was helpful.
I read a ton of liberationtheology before I went on my
(08:35):
personal journey to the blackMadonna, so you know that was
empowering.
To read the mi hatistas, toread the black feminists and the
womanists, to read the JamesCones, to read the Palestinian
liberation theologian and the ornaim matig, naim matig, and
yeah, and so like it was helpfulfor me to see.
Okay, I can essentially breathemy own embodied imagination into
(09:00):
this text and pull out thethemes that heal me.
I had seen that with theseother liberation theologies and
so I knew this is.
I think at the time I wasconcerned is this legal?
You know what I mean Like isthis something that I can
(09:20):
actually do?
But now I'm not even concernedabout that anymore.
I'm like not if it feels good,because I think feeling good is
a little too consumeristic.
But now my litmus test is doesit open me to love Love for
myself, love for others or lovefor the divine?
(09:42):
If that's a yes, we're gonnakeep going, regardless of
whether tradition agrees orsociety agrees or patriarchy
agrees or even if my body I meaneven if I feel scared it's like
, oh, I can feel it opening meto love, so let's keep going.
It's a totally differentapproach than well.
(10:04):
This isn't in the creed, it'smore.
Or this isn't what my pastorsaid, this isn't you know.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
It's so interesting because I'm seeing so many
people begin to be like, wait aminute, the math is like.
The math is not mathy and, ifI'm honest, math is mathy for a
really long time.
And there's so many people inthat space of like.
I feel like even in my writing,in the way that I'm trying to
put things out in the worldright now, it's about like look,
(10:35):
you've got the courage and thepermission to leave this.
It's toxic and you know it'stoxic.
You can feel that it's toxic.
It's not producing life and wedon't have objective certainty
about any of these things.
And so why would we hold tosomething that is like
oppressive to someone or violent, when you don't even have like
actual, absolute, objectivetruth to back that up and like?
(10:59):
So how many people like namethat cognitive dissonance and
then also see like even in thetext of like well, what are the
scriptures say?
How do you read them?
Like that's in the text, likethere's this real permission to
like figure out what this issaying to you, and like I feel
like there's so much of a needfor the I guess that gap to be
(11:19):
bridged between people who arelike starting to feel
uncomfortable and like lookingacross and seeing all of these
bodies of work and being like Idon't even know how to make it
to that body of work.
I'm trying to kind of likebuild the bridge, to like there
is so much out here.
Just keep on coming, you know.
Just keep coming, you'll findit.
I feel like that's whathappened with me in 2019 and
(11:40):
2020.
And then I think about, inparticular, dealing with the
divine feminine and howtroublesome that was to me until
I read the book, because Ididn't realize how much well,
there was two things I didn'trealize obviously how much
misogyny was embedded in meright Like that's number one.
(12:01):
But then there was this weirdrelationship that I've just
started to have theseconversations with myself about
oh, like being non-binary andfeeling like how do I relate to
black women, black womenists?
I don't feel like I'm a blackwhen I don't feel like I'm a
woman.
And so even reading, like evenreading your book like I have
(12:21):
maintained this idea, I am ablack woman because
ontologically I'm a black woman,like I feel like I live and
move in the world that way, evenif I don't feel like that's my
gender identity right, like Ithink it's more than a gender.
At this point, being a blackwoman is like magic or some sort
(12:43):
of like.
I don't even know how I woulddescribe it.
But what was that journey likefor you?
Because I know that you'vetalked before about how you've
basically and actually at thething you said, my blackness is
not up for debate and you werelike pushing back on you living
into that, like can you say alittle bit more about that, your
(13:03):
own relationship with yourblackness?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, well, I think one of the reasons why
encountering the black Madonnahas been important for me is
because it's taught me that I'msacred too, and I think that's
why so many of us were in thosewhite spaces for so long,
(13:29):
because we thought that oursacredness was contingent upon
us serving in those spaces andbeing faithful, being useful,
giving, serving, doing ministry,taking up our cross.
(13:51):
I remember getting abused overand over and over again in those
spaces and holding on to thistoxic truth that this black
evangelical taught me, which wasthat, well, reconcilers are
bridges and bridges get steppedon.
And so I was like, okay, like Ihave a whole spirituality to
(14:11):
support this abuse, like I'm,you know, I was just like, okay,
then that's what I need to be,is be that person who gets
stepped on.
And so I think, when I wastalking about you know, whenever
I would say something like myblackness is not for debate, or
my femaleness or, in your case,my non-binary-ness, I can be
whoever I wanna be in any moment, and that's not up for debate.
(14:32):
It comes from an internalconnection to my sacredness,
which is not up for debate.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And so any.
I love what James Cone said.
He said blackness is the imageof God and black people, and I
think that black, like I thinkof the black Madonna as the
image of God, and blackfemininity.
Which people of all genders?
Yeah, well, she represents allof us, you know, regardless of
(15:06):
our gender identity.
And so if my sacredness is notup for debate because the divine
is in me, then my blackness isnot up for debate because that's
just the divine working throughthis particular aspect of my
identity.
Well, yeah, which isn't to saythat, like, everything that
comes out of my expression ofblackness is inherently good.
(15:28):
Right, we still need to be incommunity and be accountable,
but I think this idea thatthere's some hierarchy that's
telling me whether I'm good ornot, as opposed to that coming
from my internal process andthen in loving community with
people who know me well and loveme well and are not problematic
(15:49):
, speaking truth and oraffirmation right, and sometimes
it can be both.
And so there's just so muchthat I'm not like.
I just look back at like beforeI left the evangelical church I
was serving at.
This one church claimed to be amulti-ethnic church, don't they
all do right?
In retrospect.
(16:10):
I'm like every ministry.
There were no ministries for me.
Every minute, I started everyministry in that church that was
for me.
I started a ministry for singlepeople, even though the church
was over half single, of coursethey had no ministry for single
people.
I started that.
Hundreds of people were goingto the ministry that I volunteer
led.
I started a ministry for blackpeople and no point.
(16:35):
I was so disconnected from mysacredness and my embodied truth
that at no point did I askmyself why am I doing the most
for a church that's doingnothing for me?
Why do I go to a church whereliterally I have to create the
ministries that are for me, whenon the masthead it says
(16:57):
multi-ethnic or whatever?
And I'm still interested intracking down that church
because I was givingsacrificially in quote to their
building fund In voice Okay,most interest but we used to
talk about that as an investment.
I was an investor and I want tosell my shares and get out.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
That was good to show .
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I thought that my sacredness came from.
I think I wrote a linesomething like this in my book
faithfulness meant beingfaithful to everyone but myself.
That part, yeah, and Iliterally thought that that was
where my salvation, my goodness,was coming from and that's why
I think so many of us were inthose spaces for so long and
(17:44):
that's why there are a lot ofpeople who are still in those
spaces.
The number one okay, the mostpushback I get from anybody
around my book is obviouslywhite women.
I think white men don't eventhey're so triggered by the
title they don't even come nearit.
White men are like straight uptriggered by the title, like
just seeing it in Barnes andNoble or whatever, I saw a
(18:08):
monster like a goblin.
That's so true.
White women have issues with itbecause white women love the
Black Madonna and they don'tlike that.
I said she's not.
I don't know what you're tryingto do with her, but I'm not
there for it.
But the second largestcontention of people who have
(18:31):
issues with my book are churchblack women, and I can relate to
that.
I mean, if I had handed 25 yearold Christina my book, how did
they get behind me saying likewhat is this?
Like this, is that slipperyslope they're talking about?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
It is right here.
This is it right here.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
This is that slippery slope they're talking about and
this is why we can't reallylisten to women, because women
are so straight.
So I get it, because I think,you know, many of us were not
taught.
We don't have the tools to bespiritually adventurous.
Yeah, we don't have the toolsto ask questions beyond what
(19:17):
we've been taught to ask, and wedon't have a divine who can
hold space for all that Scarymonster controlling God.
And we learn pretty quickly.
You know, I think I tellstories in my book, but almost
everyone's like oh, I know thatstory, like the.
You know the woman who getspregnant out of wedlock and how
(19:38):
the church treats her, whetherit's officially or unofficially,
or you know, you just see yousee this happens when you don't
follow the rules Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
I feel like I'm like you.
So you mentioned somethingabout is this legal?
And I want to go back there.
But I was thinking about how aperson gets to this place where
they feels I'm going to mumblethrough this a little bit but
like it feels very much like youget to the end and like white
evangelicalism, whiteness,patriarchy all that toxicity
(20:10):
took so much from me that I hadnothing left and in this place
of just being completely like,run down and empty, I had to
resurrect myself.
Like I had to decide whether Iwas going to live like this or
get up and like just completelydifferent.
And there was something verypowerful about saying what I
would not worship anymore.
(20:30):
I just won't worship that Godand the agency it was almost
like every little bit of agencyI took.
It was like, oh my gosh, likeI'm coming alive, like I'm being
resurrected in a way, but itwasn't an external thing that
was resurrecting me, was likeI'm not going to stay down for
this, I'm not going to put upfor this and I'm not going to
(20:51):
worship a God who does this like, and for me that felt like some
similar to the like.
Is this legal?
But I wonder if, like, peoplejust get driven like.
They get driven to the point oflike.
I cannot.
This is taking too much of mylife from me, is taking too much
of my vitality for me.
And you talked about, like,that question of like.
(21:12):
Is this legal for me to do?
I know one story.
There was definitely likestepping over the thing and run
by the long to go, but like interms of like in terms of like
is this radical?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
is this yes?
And also, you know, I meanearly on I had questions about
my salvation and I think that'sthat's one of the first blocks
that people have, because we'reso scared of going to hell that
we don't even ask ourselves ifwe believe in hell.
It's so true, we believe in adivine being who would send us
(21:46):
to hell.
We believe in a divine beingwho you know.
So I think, in that sense,early on, it was like is this
legal?
Like because I was concernedthat my salvation was on the
line.
Yeah, and I know people who arein that place.
It's terrifying.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Okay, so I know that we're like hitting our 30 minute
mark, so I don't even know howto do this in a cute way, but I
want to talk about a little bitmore about the historical roots
of like black Madonna and wherethe trips are coming from, like
what, what goes into them andwhat are you hoping that that
people gain from that.
What are you trying to curatein that way?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah.
So when, when I firstencountered the black Madonna, I
want to say in like 2016 wasprobably the first time my whole
my whole body chemistry changed.
I feel like I feel like I wasfrom viewing images online.
I realized I had been holdingin my breath my whole life.
Wow.
And in that moment of justseeing this sacred being who
(22:55):
looks like me, and then startingto read the stories, the
historical stories about theseblack Virgin Mary's that are
like technically housed in theCatholic church but are we like
in Catholic really?
I mean, like it's they'recreated by all sorts of folks
and like I just I was sotransformed just by knowing that
(23:21):
they exist.
I had just been surrounded bynegative images of black women,
the media or what's even said inpulpits.
I mean, I don't know if you'veread Tamara Lomax's book,
Jezebel Unhinged, but shebasically wrote a whole book
about like misogyny in the blackchurch Good, and she her other.
(23:43):
So there's one about misogynyin the black church that's
called Jezebel Unhinged, and herother book is about Tyler Perry
and how he's misogynistic, andso like she's really interested
in which, I'm like I see no lie.
Like she's really interested inlooking at misogyny within
black spaces, and so I'mrealizing I'm not safe from the
(24:05):
white male God gaze, even in myhome or even in black churches.
That was.
It was so powerful for me toencounter this image of the
divine that stands against thoseugly representations that we
have.
And you know, honestly, itwasn't until one month before my
book came out that I evenlearned that in 2006, Bell Hooks
(24:29):
wrote that black people need toreclaim the black Madonna.
Wow, and I didn't know that.
She actually had this likereally strong devotion to the
black Madonna and wastransformed when she went to go
visit a black Madonna when shewas in college.
She went to visit the blackMadonna of Montserrat and had
this like really powerfulexperience, and so she wrote
black Americans need to reclaimher to stand as an icon of
(24:53):
resistance against all the ugly,hateful representations that
black women deal with.
Wow.
And so when I went on my walkingpilgrimage 400 miles to visit
18 different black Madonna's inFrance, every single one of them
changed me.
Every single one has adifferent story, has a different
look, has a different vibe, hasa different, and so you can
(25:15):
just stand before them, and thisis where I'm grateful for my
Pentecostal roots, because Icould just be like okay, God,
I'm here, do something, I'm home, I'm home.
The people ask me what of yourroots do you really appreciate?
And I'm like there's no way Icould have gone on that
pilgrimage without being aPentecostal kid, Like because
you were like Kojik Worlds.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
He won one of those.
Oh, totally exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
You know, and it's like, if you know, it wasn't the
Calvinist church that God diddo anything.
That part, yeah, it's like.
That's so Pentecostal, to justbe like, okay, like I don't
really know what we're doinghere, but I know we're gonna do
something, yeah.
And so that's what I did, and Ihad these really powerful
(25:58):
experiences, and so now Ifinally have the opportunity to
take black women and blacknon-binary people, who the black
Madonna's, and to, just as acommunity, be with them and do
that work that all hooks ourancestors telling us to do,
which is reclaim them forourselves.
It is a matter what the churchsays about the black Madonna.
It doesn't even matter what Isay about the black Madonna.
(26:19):
All that matters is like whatdo we need now?
How is she moving through usand how can we be in
conversation with that?
So, yeah, that's why, in May,I'm taking our first trip.
It's just opened up black womenand black non-binary binary
people, but I'd love to be ableto open it to any black people
eventually.
Yeah, we're just so few spacesfor black women and non-binary
(26:41):
folks that I wanted to make surethat we held that sacred.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, and there's something honestly to me.
I'm thinking about just beingin France and how so many people
who were like freedom fightersor who offered ideas to America
like, took respite Listen youknow what?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
It's an interesting place because I don't think
there's a country that's moreracist than France.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Honestly, or more problematic than France.
Even Britain, like I meanFrance's colonial history is
like yes, I mean I guess wedon't need to play oppression
politics.
I mean Olympics, but I mean Ijust remember even last week
when the US was like the onecountry that voted against the
(27:25):
referendum to do a ceasefire inGaza and France voted for the
ceasefire and people were likeeven France would France would
Right, I love you.
I think historically, france isusually on the worst side ever,
and so it is interesting thatblack Americans have often found
(27:51):
I wouldn't call it a safe spacebut, a space.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yeah, I just find that interesting, yeah,
especially artists and creators.
We're just being in the Stateswas just too much for the US,
making it impossible for them toeven create.
Yeah, and you see the JamesBaldwin's and the Josephine
Bakers and the folks going overto France and I think I enjoy
(28:18):
that privilege too.
When people first see me, theyassume I'm North African there,
and once they hear me speakingEnglish or they see my passport,
it's like an entirely differentinteraction.
So it's very anti-black, butthere's a space for black
Americans due to our privilegeas Americans.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah Well, thank you so much for just who you are and
the way that you.
I'm not used to people being sokind and joyful and filled with
light, but also so fierce, andI hate to say it, but there
seems to be an aesthetic in ourheads but for you to be such a
(29:00):
person of so much light and tobe light you bring that kind of
an energy but to be so fierceand to say I mean, the name of
the book is God is a Black woman, that's a big fuck.
You, I mean, and I just waslike yes, and so I just
appreciate that, because I thinkthere are people who need that
(29:21):
now and who will be glad itexists once they finally get
brave enough to leave as well.
They'll be glad that it's therefor them, waiting for them to
tell them you're OK, it's OK.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, you know what I actuallyhad planned on telling much of
my story in the book when Ifirst wrote the proposal.
It was just like most.
It was basically just going tobe like a practical theology,
you know, much like this.
But then my editor saidactually we want you to share
about your pilgrimage too.
So I actually went on thepilgrimage just for me and
(29:52):
didn't have any intention toshare it.
But then I ended up sharing mystory and I'm glad I did,
because I think other people'sstories of liberation have
inspired me.
So I'm glad that my book is astory so that people can see
that they can do this themselves.
(30:13):
And I don't really care ifpeople believe if that God is a
black woman, like I mean.
I think it's good for all of usto believe that.
For a lot of reasons but Ireally I just want people to
know that they can go on ajourney to find their sacredness
and find themselves in thedivine.
And when that happens,everything changes.
(30:35):
And what you said about beinglight and kind even though I'm
fierce that wasn't always thecase, I mean, that's come from
me finding myself in the divineI'm just a lot less scared.
The world is less scary to mebecause God is a black woman.
(30:55):
And if God is a black woman,it's handled Like frankly, when
people say, how do you know forsure that God is a black woman,
I'm like I don't, just like youdon't know for sure, just like
you don't know for sure thatwhite Jesus is white.
And also you never asked thatquestion, you never asked the
white Jesus people out and youknow for sure that he's white.
(31:16):
So anyway, but I don't and I'mnot invested in everyone
believing that.
I just know that when I believethat I'm a kinder, softer, more
hopeful person and maybe that'swhat spirituality is about,
maybe that's what spiritualityis is helping us find a way to
move through this really complexand scary world with hope, with
(31:38):
joy, with generosity towardsothers.
My brother recently.
I'm close with my siblings,even though their journeys are
like, so different than mine.
And my sister's the best.
Every time she comes to visitbecause I have black Madonna's
all over my face she's alwayslike everywhere I go, I just see
graven images.
I just think ever.
I'm like oh, that's such a likethrowback.
(32:05):
We're in graven, you know.
But I'm still close with bothmy siblings and both of them say
like you know, you're sodifferent, you're so different
now.
Now, when we disagree, you speakyour truth and I don't feel
like there's something wrongwith me.
You're speaking your truth Likeyou're not.
(32:27):
You know, I don't feel likeyou're judging me.
I don't feel like I have to beon your team or else you're not
gonna.
And I used to be more like thatbecause I was raised by White
Mill God.
I was like well, if you don'tagree with me, then you're
banished.
Wow, because that's how I wastreated.
(32:48):
That's what spiritualleadership was.
It was being in charge of otherpeople's path.
Yes, wow, it was rebuking.
I mean, spiritual leadership'sfavorite tool is the rebuke.
It's so true.
Oh, my gosh, I hadn't eventhought about that.
Correction.
It's correction.
It's correction, you know.
And now I don't even.
(33:09):
I mean, when I first encounteredthe Black Madonna.
I was really drawn to the likemotherhood side of her and I
think that's because I was soabused by Father God that I just
needed something else.
And in my book I tell some ofthe story about how White Mill
God shows up in my dad, and sopart of that too was I just like
(33:30):
needed a whole differentparenting relationship.
But more recently and I lovethe Black Madonna as mother and
there's like so much that youcan do with that but more
recently I've been like okay,but now I actually want to move
into a consensual relationshipwhere you're my teacher too and
(33:51):
bring on the correction, bringon the guidance, bring on the
hey, christina, you know that'sdone.
After we already have a secureattachment.
I know that you love me, I knowthat you're here for me, I know
that you accept me, no matterwhat.
Wow, and I feel like I'm beinginvited into this more.
(34:13):
I mean hierarchical, but not ina consensual way where it's
like no, like you're my elder,you're older than your wiser,
and I have full autonomy here.
And I'm concerned with thisrelationship where I'm asking
you for guidance and I'm askingfor feedback, even if they don't
feel good all the time, youknow, and to just even notice
(34:37):
that, like my heart is longingfor that, after I've like done
them that, oh, she's my mommy,she's got me, she's protecting
me, now it's like, okay, butwhat do you have to teach me?
But I don't already know, likeI'm not this, like fully
self-actualized human being, andnow I'm not in any.
(35:00):
I mean, I dab, I'm in a fewdifferent spiritual communities
but I'm not in it like I used to, where it's like you know I'm
covering, I'm covering it allover there, so I don't have that
structure andthat's healthy, you know.
I think it's good to be on ourown for a while and to go out
(35:22):
and get clear about boundaries.
We all still need community,and we still need teachers and
we still need elders and westill need all these things that
white supremacy has stolen fromthe black community.
Like you know, in a perfectworld we'd be surrounded by
amazing older black women whoaren't bitter and aren't
traumatized and aren't barelymaking ends meet, and so they
(35:46):
actually have the spaciousnessto make us a cup of tea and sit
and listen to us and tell usstories about the olden days and
what they experienced.
But there's so few of thatbecause of white supremacy.
I have lots of neighbors who arelike elders, like they're
battling addiction or they're,you know, trying to retire but
(36:09):
still working three jobs,because now they're taking care
of their grandbabies too, andyou know it's just complicated,
right, and so they've never hadtherapy a day in their life,
right?
And so what comes out of theirmouth is always the most
life-giving, even though there'slife inside of them.
So I think we have to do thatwork of creating those
(36:30):
communities, and I'm gratefulfor just an idea of that, you
know, in a way.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
So Thank you so much for like coming on and like
giving up your time, and I dohave to say that you created
that kind of a space for me.
Even back then, in thebeginning of all of this, like
the space that you curated forjust a few days was
(36:57):
life-changing for me.
So thank you very much.
Oh, I'm so glad.
Love or retreat that part Ilove or retreat you too?
Yeah, all right.
And I still got my little cup,my little CJR.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Oh good, I still have mine too.
Those are almost vintage.
They're about to be vintage.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I know you were very clear Do not put it in the
microwave.
I was like I still rememberthat from 2019.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Oh, my good, I love that I have that voice.
Every time you go to themicrowave you're like mm-mm.
All right, what's up everybody?
Welcome back to this episode ofLife After Levin.
I'm your host, tamise SpencerHelms, and I'm joined by the one
and only Dr Christina Cleveland.
I'm gonna read the bio at theend of the episode, but I just
wanna introduce Dr Cleveland.
Have you say whatever you'rewanting people to know about you
today?
So then we can jump into thisepisode of how just really
(00:24):
grateful I am to you and whatyou've put out into the world so
welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you, it's an honor to be here.
Thank you for having me andyou're kind of from like the
before.
Yes, so it's nice the beforetime, so it's nice to connect
with people from the before timewho are also still in the after
time, Cause a lot of thosefolks wrote me some hate mail
and then pieced out out of mylife which I mean good riddance
(00:51):
but also there's a lot oftransition and change.
That happens when we go on aliberation journey and not
everyone is able to come with us, so it's nice to be on a
journey with you Likewise.
So, everyone.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I met Dr Cleveland.
I obviously knew who she was,but I was a part of the 2019, I
think cohort.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
CJR Before the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I know yes, right, and I mean literally had just
moved from Atlanta back toVirginia, had just gotten my kid
out of the NICU, and I don'tknow even what it was.
I think it might have been aconversation we had offline.
It was like some sort ofinteraction.
I was like I think I want tolearn in this direction from
here on out.
And then I got invited to dothe cohort, did the cohort and
(01:39):
learned about so many differentways of doing spirituality.
I mean, you introduced me toAngel Keota Williams, pixie
Light.
It was just like these ways ofbeing that initially felt new to
me but I think eventuallypretty much saved me out of an
abusive marriage.
So I was married when I came inand I was in a very, very
(02:00):
abusive marriage when I came in2019.
But I think that that time forme was so pivotal because it was
the first time anyone asked me.
I remember being in there andthinking are we about to come
with our theology and stuff likethat?
And we were just around thehouse talking about like clothes
and food.
And then you're like, all right, everybody, we're just gonna
listen to our bodies.
(02:21):
I was like, what Like?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
if the devil is a lie .
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I don't know.
Listen to our what.
I was talking about the body andevil I mean literally that was
the first time anyone invited mybody into any kind of spiritual
or religious space, and notthat that was a religious space,
but just it was the first timemy body was invited anywhere.
And so what I mean I end uptalking about in the book and
(02:47):
what I've been constantlytalking about is like that
initial it makes I was emotionalcoming into the thing.
So if I get emotional it's fine, but that initial experience
was the first time somebody saidyour body is a part of this
process, and so I'm just soappreciative to you for that.
And you've just written thisbook God is a Black woman, which
(03:12):
is just profoundly propheticand powerful, and I think I'd
love to talk a little bit about,like the pilgrimage that led up
to that and kind of the thesisbehind that and where it came
from.
Where did the book come from foryou?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, well, I think it came from this question that
I had is there any hope?
I mean, I think maybe you firstencountered me at Urbana, which
was, I think, in 2016,.
But I was sort of like peakevangelical house Negro, and so
(03:49):
I had worked for my early 30s tomy mid 30s to build a platform,
hopefully of positive influence.
I'd written a widely read bookfor the church.
I was doing so much to try tomake a difference in the
evangelical church didn'trealize at the time that I was
just getting played.
It became increasingly aware,but at the very beginning I just
(04:13):
thought oh, I just wanna helppeople.
I wanna be at thesemulti-ethnic church conferences
and help people.
I'm surely the only reason whythey aren't doing better is
because they don't know better.
Like that was because I'm avery earnest person, and so it's
like, oh, now I know better,Okay, I'm gonna do better, like
that.
But in over time I started torealize, oh, they, they, they
(04:36):
are actively rejecting the truthbecause they're holding on to
power.
And so I was basically as highas you could possibly go in the
evangelical world and still havea vagina.
It's like that part.
You know, I was, and actuallysomeone recently right around,
when I went on my Black Madonnapilgrimage, someone interviewed
me who was writing a book aboutwomen and power in the church,
(04:59):
and I was in the like outlierschapter.
Because their whole thesis oftheir book was that if you're a
woman and you want to have powerin the Christian church,
particularly the evangelicalchurch, you have to either be
married to a man who has poweror you have to be backed by an
institution that has power.
So like they had done all thisresearch where it's like, oh,
lisa Sharon Harper has a voicebecause she's backed by
(05:20):
sojourners, or like I forget hername but like the wife of the
mega church pastor in Chicago,it's like she has power but it's
because she's married to thismega church.
You know, so I was in the weirdochapter of like women who
randomly had some power, eventhough we weren't associated
with any man or institution.
Yeah, and so you know I wasdoing all the things.
(05:43):
But then, between the BlackLives Matter movement and Me Too
and Trump getting elected, Iwas just like, okay, this is a
dead end.
Like it was almost my spiritknew, but that was the writing
on the wall, the culmination ofall of those events.
So around 2015, 2016,.
At that point I was still.
(06:04):
I had like I was booking like18 months out.
So I was still speaking atthese events, even though I like
didn't believe any of thethings.
Like inside.
I'm praying during, like theworship time.
You know what I mean?
It's like these totally grosslyrics that I completely
disagree with.
(06:24):
But I'm here anyway cause Igotta make money.
Exactly, I had alreadycommitted.
So that's really.
I was just so disillusioned, sohurt, and I've just finally
woke up to the reality that Iwas just getting played, that I
was just a mascot.
I mean, it's kind of similar toMalcolm X's autobiography where
(06:46):
he's just like I'm just amascot here.
And MLK eventually realized yes, you know, when he went to the
Congo and was like, oh, liberalwhite people are still the worst
.
Okay, I actually need to startcaring about poor black people,
pure black people.
And then he was killed, youknow.
But you know it's interesting,cause my awakening was right
(07:07):
around the same time of MLK.
So I'm like, okay, I'm right ontime.
I'm like I'm in the 40s, I'venot thought about that?
Wow, no, okay, Cause you knowit's easy to think.
Not, I think time is anillusion anyway, but in a
linearity is obviously a figmentof the white patriarchal
imagination.
But it's, you know, it's niceto just be reminded.
(07:28):
Like we all, our journey issacred.
Yeah, no matter when you knowwhen we get to the truth.
But so I just was like I need,I need, I need.
I need an image of the divinethat relates to my experience as
a black woman.
And so that's why I went,that's why I started looking for
those images.
Pretty quickly I found theblack Madonna.
I was shocked that she's outthere and I hadn't heard of her.
(07:52):
I mean, I didn't grow upCatholic but still I mean she's
quite famous.
It felt, it felt like aconspiracy.
I hadn't heard of her,especially given how many white
Jesuses there are and how whiteJesus is completely not real.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, so I just so that, yeah, it was, but it was
desperation.
It was like can I believe that?
Like you know, we're taughtthat God is with us, but is.
God with us and who?
If so, who is that God?
And also I need an image ofthat guy Like I.
You know it was helpful.
I read a ton of liberationtheology before I went on my
(08:35):
personal journey to the blackMadonna, so you know that was
empowering.
To read the mi hatistas, toread the black feminists and the
womanists, to read the JamesCones, to read the Palestinian
liberation theologian and the ornaim matig, naim matig, and
yeah, and so like it was helpfulfor me to see.
Okay, I can essentially breathemy own embodied imagination into
(09:00):
this text and pull out thethemes that heal me.
I had seen that with theseother liberation theologies and
so I knew this is.
I think at the time I wasconcerned is this legal?
You know what I mean Like isthis something that I can
(09:20):
actually do?
But now I'm not even concernedabout that anymore.
I'm like not if it feels good,because I think feeling good is
a little too consumeristic.
But now my litmus test is doesit open me to love Love for
myself, love for others or lovefor the divine?
(09:42):
If that's a yes, we're gonnakeep going, regardless of
whether tradition agrees orsociety agrees or patriarchy
agrees or even if my body I meaneven if I feel scared it's like
, oh, I can feel it opening meto love, so let's keep going.
It's a totally differentapproach than well.
(10:04):
This isn't in the creed, it'smore.
Or this isn't what my pastorsaid, this isn't you know.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
It's so interesting because I'm seeing so many
people begin to be like, wait aminute, the math is like.
The math is not mathy and, ifI'm honest, math is mathy for a
really long time.
And there's so many people inthat space of like.
I feel like even in my writing,in the way that I'm trying to
put things out in the worldright now, it's about like look,
(10:35):
you've got the courage and thepermission to leave this.
It's toxic and you know it'stoxic.
You can feel that it's toxic.
It's not producing life and wedon't have objective certainty
about any of these things.
And so why would we hold tosomething that is like
oppressive to someone or violent, when you don't even have like
actual, absolute, objectivetruth to back that up and like?
(10:59):
So how many people like namethat cognitive dissonance and
then also see like even in thetext of like well, what are the
scriptures say?
How do you read them?
Like that's in the text, likethere's this real permission to
like figure out what this issaying to you, and like I feel
like there's so much of a needfor the I guess that gap to be
(11:19):
bridged between people who arelike starting to feel
uncomfortable and like lookingacross and seeing all of these
bodies of work and being like Idon't even know how to make it
to that body of work.
I'm trying to kind of likebuild the bridge, to like there
is so much out here.
Just keep on coming, you know.
Just keep coming, you'll findit.
I feel like that's whathappened with me in 2019 and
(11:40):
2020.
And then I think about, inparticular, dealing with the
divine feminine and howtroublesome that was to me until
I read the book, because Ididn't realize how much well,
there was two things I didn'trealize obviously how much
misogyny was embedded in meright Like that's number one.
(12:01):
But then there was this weirdrelationship that I've just
started to have theseconversations with myself about
oh, like being non-binary andfeeling like how do I relate to
black women, black womenists?
I don't feel like I'm a blackwhen I don't feel like I'm a
woman.
And so even reading, like evenreading your book like I have
(12:21):
maintained this idea, I am ablack woman because
ontologically I'm a black woman,like I feel like I live and
move in the world that way, evenif I don't feel like that's my
gender identity right, like Ithink it's more than a gender.
At this point, being a blackwoman is like magic or some sort
(12:43):
of like.
I don't even know how I woulddescribe it.
But what was that journey likefor you?
Because I know that you'vetalked before about how you've
basically and actually at thething you said, my blackness is
not up for debate and you werelike pushing back on you living
into that, like can you say alittle bit more about that, your
(13:03):
own relationship with yourblackness?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, well, I think one of the reasons why
encountering the black Madonnahas been important for me is
because it's taught me that I'msacred too, and I think that's
why so many of us were in thosewhite spaces for so long,
(13:29):
because we thought that oursacredness was contingent upon
us serving in those spaces andbeing faithful, being useful,
giving, serving, doing ministry,taking up our cross.
(13:51):
I remember getting abused overand over and over again in those
spaces and holding on to thistoxic truth that this black
evangelical taught me, which wasthat, well, reconcilers are
bridges and bridges get steppedon.
And so I was like, okay, like Ihave a whole spirituality to
(14:11):
support this abuse, like I'm,you know, I was just like, okay,
then that's what I need to be,is be that person who gets
stepped on.
And so I think, when I wastalking about you know, whenever
I would say something like myblackness is not for debate, or
my femaleness or, in your case,my non-binary-ness, I can be
whoever I wanna be in any moment, and that's not up for debate.
(14:32):
It comes from an internalconnection to my sacredness,
which is not up for debate.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And so any.
I love what James Cone said.
He said blackness is the imageof God and black people, and I
think that black, like I thinkof the black Madonna as the
image of God, and blackfemininity.
Which people of all genders?
Yeah, well, she represents allof us, you know, regardless of
(15:06):
our gender identity.
And so if my sacredness is notup for debate because the divine
is in me, then my blackness isnot up for debate because that's
just the divine working throughthis particular aspect of my
identity.
Well, yeah, which isn't to saythat, like, everything that
comes out of my expression ofblackness is inherently good.
(15:28):
Right, we still need to be incommunity and be accountable,
but I think this idea thatthere's some hierarchy that's
telling me whether I'm good ornot, as opposed to that coming
from my internal process andthen in loving community with
people who know me well and loveme well and are not problematic
(15:49):
, speaking truth and oraffirmation right, and sometimes
it can be both.
And so there's just so muchthat I'm not like.
I just look back at like beforeI left the evangelical church I
was serving at.
This one church claimed to be amulti-ethnic church, don't they
all do right?
In retrospect.
(16:10):
I'm like every ministry.
There were no ministries for me.
Every minute, I started everyministry in that church that was
for me.
I started a ministry for singlepeople, even though the church
was over half single, of coursethey had no ministry for single
people.
I started that.
Hundreds of people were goingto the ministry that I volunteer
led.
I started a ministry for blackpeople and no point.
(16:35):
I was so disconnected from mysacredness and my embodied truth
that at no point did I askmyself why am I doing the most
for a church that's doingnothing for me?
Why do I go to a church whereliterally I have to create the
ministries that are for me, whenon the masthead it says
(16:57):
multi-ethnic or whatever?
And I'm still interested intracking down that church
because I was givingsacrificially in quote to their
building fund In voice Okay,most interest but we used to
talk about that as an investment.
I was an investor and I want tosell my shares and get out.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
That was good to show .
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I thought that my sacredness came from.
I think I wrote a linesomething like this in my book
faithfulness meant beingfaithful to everyone but myself.
That part, yeah, and Iliterally thought that that was
where my salvation, my goodness,was coming from and that's why
I think so many of us were inthose spaces for so long and
(17:44):
that's why there are a lot ofpeople who are still in those
spaces.
The number one okay, the mostpushback I get from anybody
around my book is obviouslywhite women.
I think white men don't eventhey're so triggered by the
title they don't even come nearit.
White men are like straight uptriggered by the title, like
just seeing it in Barnes andNoble or whatever, I saw a
(18:08):
monster like a goblin.
That's so true.
White women have issues with itbecause white women love the
Black Madonna and they don'tlike that.
I said she's not.
I don't know what you're tryingto do with her, but I'm not
there for it.
But the second largestcontention of people who have
(18:31):
issues with my book are churchblack women, and I can relate to
that.
I mean, if I had handed 25 yearold Christina my book, how did
they get behind me saying likewhat is this?
Like this, is that slipperyslope they're talking about?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
It is right here.
This is it right here.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
This is that slippery slope they're talking about and
this is why we can't reallylisten to women, because women
are so straight.
So I get it, because I think,you know, many of us were not
taught.
We don't have the tools to bespiritually adventurous.
Yeah, we don't have the toolsto ask questions beyond what
(19:17):
we've been taught to ask, and wedon't have a divine who can
hold space for all that Scarymonster controlling God.
And we learn pretty quickly.
You know, I think I tellstories in my book, but almost
everyone's like oh, I know thatstory, like the.
You know the woman who getspregnant out of wedlock and how
(19:38):
the church treats her, whetherit's officially or unofficially,
or you know, you just see yousee this happens when you don't
follow the rules Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
I feel like I'm like you.
So you mentioned somethingabout is this legal?
And I want to go back there.
But I was thinking about how aperson gets to this place where
they feels I'm going to mumblethrough this a little bit but
like it feels very much like youget to the end and like white
evangelicalism, whiteness,patriarchy all that toxicity
(20:10):
took so much from me that I hadnothing left and in this place
of just being completely like,run down and empty, I had to
resurrect myself.
Like I had to decide whether Iwas going to live like this or
get up and like just completelydifferent.
And there was something verypowerful about saying what I
would not worship anymore.
(20:30):
I just won't worship that Godand the agency it was almost
like every little bit of agencyI took.
It was like, oh my gosh, likeI'm coming alive, like I'm being
resurrected in a way, but itwasn't an external thing that
was resurrecting me, was likeI'm not going to stay down for
this, I'm not going to put upfor this and I'm not going to
(20:51):
worship a God who does this like, and for me that felt like some
similar to the like.
Is this legal?
But I wonder if, like, peoplejust get driven like.
They get driven to the point oflike.
I cannot.
This is taking too much of mylife from me, is taking too much
of my vitality for me.
And you talked about, like,that question of like.
(21:12):
Is this legal for me to do?
I know one story.
There was definitely likestepping over the thing and run
by the long to go, but like interms of like in terms of like
is this radical?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
is this yes?
And also, you know, I meanearly on I had questions about
my salvation and I think that'sthat's one of the first blocks
that people have, because we'reso scared of going to hell that
we don't even ask ourselves ifwe believe in hell.
It's so true, we believe in adivine being who would send us
(21:46):
to hell.
We believe in a divine beingwho you know.
So I think, in that sense,early on, it was like is this
legal?
Like because I was concernedthat my salvation was on the
line.
Yeah, and I know people who arein that place.
It's terrifying.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Okay, so I know that we're like hitting our 30 minute
mark, so I don't even know howto do this in a cute way, but I
want to talk about a little bitmore about the historical roots
of like black Madonna and wherethe trips are coming from, like
what, what goes into them andwhat are you hoping that that
people gain from that.
What are you trying to curatein that way?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah.
So when, when I firstencountered the black Madonna, I
want to say in like 2016 wasprobably the first time my whole
my whole body chemistry changed.
I feel like I feel like I wasfrom viewing images online.
I realized I had been holdingin my breath my whole life.
Wow.
And in that moment of justseeing this sacred being who
(22:55):
looks like me, and then startingto read the stories, the
historical stories about theseblack Virgin Mary's that are
like technically housed in theCatholic church but are we like
in Catholic really?
I mean, like it's they'recreated by all sorts of folks
and like I just I was sotransformed just by knowing that
(23:21):
they exist.
I had just been surrounded bynegative images of black women,
the media or what's even said inpulpits.
I mean, I don't know if you'veread Tamara Lomax's book,
Jezebel Unhinged, but shebasically wrote a whole book
about like misogyny in the blackchurch Good, and she her other.
(23:43):
So there's one about misogynyin the black church that's
called Jezebel Unhinged, and herother book is about Tyler Perry
and how he's misogynistic, andso like she's really interested
in which, I'm like I see no lie.
Like she's really interested inlooking at misogyny within
black spaces, and so I'mrealizing I'm not safe from the
(24:05):
white male God gaze, even in myhome or even in black churches.
That was.
It was so powerful for me toencounter this image of the
divine that stands against thoseugly representations that we
have.
And you know, honestly, itwasn't until one month before my
book came out that I evenlearned that in 2006, Bell Hooks
(24:29):
wrote that black people need toreclaim the black Madonna.
Wow, and I didn't know that.
She actually had this likereally strong devotion to the
black Madonna and wastransformed when she went to go
visit a black Madonna when shewas in college.
She went to visit the blackMadonna of Montserrat and had
this like really powerfulexperience, and so she wrote
black Americans need to reclaimher to stand as an icon of
(24:53):
resistance against all the ugly,hateful representations that
black women deal with.
Wow.
And so when I went on my walkingpilgrimage 400 miles to visit
18 different black Madonna's inFrance, every single one of them
changed me.
Every single one has adifferent story, has a different
look, has a different vibe, hasa different, and so you can
(25:15):
just stand before them, and thisis where I'm grateful for my
Pentecostal roots, because Icould just be like okay, God,
I'm here, do something, I'm home, I'm home.
The people ask me what of yourroots do you really appreciate?
And I'm like there's no way Icould have gone on that
pilgrimage without being aPentecostal kid, Like because
you were like Kojik Worlds.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
He won one of those.
Oh, totally exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
You know, and it's like, if you know, it wasn't the
Calvinist church that God diddo anything.
That part, yeah, it's like.
That's so Pentecostal, to justbe like, okay, like I don't
really know what we're doinghere, but I know we're gonna do
something, yeah.
And so that's what I did, and Ihad these really powerful
(25:58):
experiences, and so now Ifinally have the opportunity to
take black women and blacknon-binary people, who the black
Madonna's, and to, just as acommunity, be with them and do
that work that all hooks ourancestors telling us to do,
which is reclaim them forourselves.
It is a matter what the churchsays about the black Madonna.
It doesn't even matter what Isay about the black Madonna.
(26:19):
All that matters is like whatdo we need now?
How is she moving through usand how can we be in
conversation with that?
So, yeah, that's why, in May,I'm taking our first trip.
It's just opened up black womenand black non-binary binary
people, but I'd love to be ableto open it to any black people
eventually.
Yeah, we're just so few spacesfor black women and non-binary
(26:41):
folks that I wanted to make surethat we held that sacred.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, and there's something honestly to me.
I'm thinking about just beingin France and how so many people
who were like freedom fightersor who offered ideas to America
like, took respite Listen youknow what?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
It's an interesting place because I don't think
there's a country that's moreracist than France.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Honestly, or more problematic than France.
Even Britain, like I meanFrance's colonial history is
like yes, I mean I guess wedon't need to play oppression
politics.
I mean Olympics, but I mean Ijust remember even last week
when the US was like the onecountry that voted against the
(27:25):
referendum to do a ceasefire inGaza and France voted for the
ceasefire and people were likeeven France would France would
Right, I love you.
I think historically, france isusually on the worst side ever,
and so it is interesting thatblack Americans have often found
(27:51):
I wouldn't call it a safe spacebut, a space.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yeah, I just find that interesting, yeah,
especially artists and creators.
We're just being in the Stateswas just too much for the US,
making it impossible for them toeven create.
Yeah, and you see the JamesBaldwin's and the Josephine
Bakers and the folks going overto France and I think I enjoy
(28:18):
that privilege too.
When people first see me, theyassume I'm North African there,
and once they hear me speakingEnglish or they see my passport,
it's like an entirely differentinteraction.
So it's very anti-black, butthere's a space for black
Americans due to our privilegeas Americans.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah Well, thank you so much for just who you are and
the way that you.
I'm not used to people being sokind and joyful and filled with
light, but also so fierce, andI hate to say it, but there
seems to be an aesthetic in ourheads but for you to be such a
(29:00):
person of so much light and tobe light you bring that kind of
an energy but to be so fierceand to say I mean, the name of
the book is God is a Black woman, that's a big fuck.
You, I mean, and I just waslike yes, and so I just
appreciate that, because I thinkthere are people who need that
(29:21):
now and who will be glad itexists once they finally get
brave enough to leave as well.
They'll be glad that it's therefor them, waiting for them to
tell them you're OK, it's OK.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, you know what I actuallyhad planned on telling much of
my story in the book when Ifirst wrote the proposal.
It was just like most.
It was basically just going tobe like a practical theology,
you know, much like this.
But then my editor saidactually we want you to share
about your pilgrimage too.
So I actually went on thepilgrimage just for me and
(29:52):
didn't have any intention toshare it.
But then I ended up sharing mystory and I'm glad I did,
because I think other people'sstories of liberation have
inspired me.
So I'm glad that my book is astory so that people can see
that they can do this themselves.
(30:13):
And I don't really care ifpeople believe if that God is a
black woman, like I mean.
I think it's good for all of usto believe that.
For a lot of reasons but Ireally I just want people to
know that they can go on ajourney to find their sacredness
and find themselves in thedivine.
And when that happens,everything changes.
(30:35):
And what you said about beinglight and kind even though I'm
fierce that wasn't always thecase, I mean, that's come from
me finding myself in the divineI'm just a lot less scared.
The world is less scary to mebecause God is a black woman.
(30:55):
And if God is a black woman,it's handled Like frankly, when
people say, how do you know forsure that God is a black woman,
I'm like I don't, just like youdon't know for sure, just like
you don't know for sure thatwhite Jesus is white.
And also you never asked thatquestion, you never asked the
white Jesus people out and youknow for sure that he's white.
(31:16):
So anyway, but I don't and I'mnot invested in everyone
believing that.
I just know that when I believethat I'm a kinder, softer, more
hopeful person and maybe that'swhat spirituality is about,
maybe that's what spiritualityis is helping us find a way to
move through this really complexand scary world with hope, with
(31:38):
joy, with generosity towardsothers.
My brother recently.
I'm close with my siblings,even though their journeys are
like, so different than mine.
And my sister's the best.
Every time she comes to visitbecause I have black Madonna's
all over my face she's alwayslike everywhere I go, I just see
graven images.
I just think ever.
I'm like oh, that's such a likethrowback.
(32:05):
We're in graven, you know.
But I'm still close with bothmy siblings and both of them say
like you know, you're sodifferent, you're so different
now.
Now, when we disagree, you speakyour truth and I don't feel
like there's something wrongwith me.
You're speaking your truth Likeyou're not.
(32:27):
You know, I don't feel likeyou're judging me.
I don't feel like I have to beon your team or else you're not
gonna.
And I used to be more like thatbecause I was raised by White
Mill God.
I was like well, if you don'tagree with me, then you're
banished.
Wow, because that's how I wastreated.
(32:48):
That's what spiritualleadership was.
It was being in charge of otherpeople's path.
Yes, wow, it was rebuking.
I mean, spiritual leadership'sfavorite tool is the rebuke.
It's so true.
Oh, my gosh, I hadn't eventhought about that.
Correction.
It's correction.
It's correction, you know.
And now I don't even.
(33:09):
I mean, when I first encounteredthe Black Madonna.
I was really drawn to the likemotherhood side of her and I
think that's because I was soabused by Father God that I just
needed something else.
And in my book I tell some ofthe story about how White Mill
God shows up in my dad, and sopart of that too was I just like
(33:30):
needed a whole differentparenting relationship.
But more recently and I lovethe Black Madonna as mother and
there's like so much that youcan do with that but more
recently I've been like okay,but now I actually want to move
into a consensual relationshipwhere you're my teacher too and
(33:51):
bring on the correction, bringon the guidance, bring on the
hey, christina, you know that'sdone.
After we already have a secureattachment.
I know that you love me, I knowthat you're here for me, I know
that you accept me, no matterwhat.
Wow, and I feel like I'm beinginvited into this more.
(34:13):
I mean hierarchical, but not ina consensual way where it's
like no, like you're my elder,you're older than your wiser,
and I have full autonomy here.
And I'm concerned with thisrelationship where I'm asking
you for guidance and I'm askingfor feedback, even if they don't
feel good all the time, youknow, and to just even notice
(34:37):
that, like my heart is longingfor that, after I've like done
them that, oh, she's my mommy,she's got me, she's protecting
me, now it's like, okay, butwhat do you have to teach me?
But I don't already know, likeI'm not this, like fully
self-actualized human being, andnow I'm not in any.
(35:00):
I mean, I dab, I'm in a fewdifferent spiritual communities
but I'm not in it like I used to, where it's like you know I'm
covering, I'm covering it allover there, so I don't have that
structure andthat's healthy, you know.
I think it's good to be on ourown for a while and to go out
(35:22):
and get clear about boundaries.
We all still need community,and we still need teachers and
we still need elders and westill need all these things that
white supremacy has stolen fromthe black community.
Like you know, in a perfectworld we'd be surrounded by
amazing older black women whoaren't bitter and aren't
traumatized and aren't barelymaking ends meet, and so they
(35:46):
actually have the spaciousnessto make us a cup of tea and sit
and listen to us and tell usstories about the olden days and
what they experienced.
But there's so few of thatbecause of white supremacy.
I have lots of neighbors who arelike elders, like they're
battling addiction or they're,you know, trying to retire but
(36:09):
still working three jobs,because now they're taking care
of their grandbabies too, andyou know it's just complicated,
right, and so they've never hadtherapy a day in their life,
right?
And so what comes out of theirmouth is always the most
life-giving, even though there'slife inside of them.
So I think we have to do thatwork of creating those
(36:30):
communities, and I'm gratefulfor just an idea of that, you
know, in a way.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
So Thank you so much for like coming on and like
giving up your time, and I dohave to say that you created
that kind of a space for me.
Even back then, in thebeginning of all of this, like
the space that you curated forjust a few days was
(36:57):
life-changing for me.
So thank you very much.
Oh, I'm so glad.
Love or retreat that part Ilove or retreat you too?
Yeah, all right.
And I still got my little cup,my little CJR.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Oh good, I still have mine too.
Those are almost vintage.
They're about to be vintage.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I know you were very clear Do not put it in the
microwave.
I was like I still rememberthat from 2019.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Oh, my good, I love that I have that voice.
Every time you go to themicrowave you're like mm-mm.
Popular Podcasts
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com