June 5, 2024 • 31 mins
How does a near-miss car accident transform your belief in God? Join Tamice Spencer-Helms and her mother, Lori Hasty, as they take you on an intimate journey through personal faith transformations and evolving family dynamics. Lori shares her profound shift from traditional Catholicism to a deeply personal relationship with God during a time of deep depression, where the Lord's Prayer became her beacon of hope and healing. This pivotal change significantly shaped Tamee's own spiritual path, revealing how faith can intertwine and strengthen familial bonds, even amidst challenges and resistance.
In the latter part of the episode, we highlight the nurturing and transformative environment of Mount Lebanon Church and the remarkable influence of Bishop Kim Brown. We'll recount our journey to discovering this inclusive community, how Bishop Brown's recognition and cultivation of our gifts have profoundly impacted our lives, and the resonance of the church’s values with our own. Through touching personal anecdotes, we underscore the importance of finding a faith community that truly feels like home, where personal growth, acceptance, and spiritual understanding flourish. Don't miss this heartfelt exploration of faith, family, and the quest for belonging.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up everybody, welcome back to this episode of
Life After 11.
I'm your host, tameeSpencer-Helms, and this week
y'all I am joined by thehonorable, the one and only the
maker of me, lori Hasty, my ownmother.
As y'all know, this is the 40thbirthday anniversary special,
so what I'm doing isinterviewing people who play a
(00:22):
significant role in my life, whoshaped me spiritually.
If you know and have read FaithUnleavened, then you know about
the chapter that takes place inmy mom's 1984 Audi, and so we
are going to meet the womanherself, lori Hasty.
Welcome to the show.
Hi, mommy, hi, how are you?
I'm great, I'm great, I'm great, I'm great, and so I think you
(01:01):
know.
People, obviously that haveread the book know that you saw
that, showed me that God wasreal, because I watched the ways
that your life changed.
Can you tell me a little bitabout your own story leading up
to the moment where you kind ofgave yourself to God?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, I was raised pretty much.
Well, I'll say that my familyalways went to church.
I always remember church beingin my life and I have loved God
since I was a little girl for avery long time.
But I would say that I was alsoraised in a very traditional
(01:46):
Catholic parochial school and inCatholic parochial school there
were a lot of rules and moresthat I learned to follow.
So I love God.
I always wanted to please God.
I've always had a prayer life.
But as I grew older and laterinto my adulthood although I was
practicing um Catholicism tosome extent, but I actually
(02:11):
actually I um went over and tobe a Methodist after I got
married.
So I was active in theMethodist church.
As you know, always had you alldoing something and singing in
the choir, doing something inthe Methodist church.
So, again, I've always lovedGod.
But it wasn't until I began toexperience an extremely deep
(02:33):
depression I mean a really,really deep depression that I
can now identify as probably adepression that would have taken
me out.
I believe that that that Godspoke to me.
And at that time, the mostmiraculous thing happened.
The only scripture I reallyknew at that time, the only one
(02:55):
that I had really memorized, wasthe Lord is my shepherd.
I just repeated that over andover again, and I just repeated
that over and over again.
Let's make a long story short.
I went to a conference thatjust quote happened to be in my
area and you all you and yourdad and your brothers have never
(03:17):
been away from me.
Just so happened that weekendyou all were away.
I went to the conference and Igave my life to Christ.
Now, what that did for me wasgive me a more real relationship
.
It wasn't a service kind ofprayer, confession, go to church
relationship.
It became a very personalrelationship with Christ.
(03:37):
So that's pretty much my story.
Ever since then I feel likeI've had a personal relationship
.
It's had ups and downs, but Ibelieve that my relationship
with God is a lot different anda lot more personable than it
was when I was growing up.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
It does, mommy, great job.
Just be you.
It's great.
And this is good for me toobecause it helps it.
It adds so much.
Now in my own life as I lookback on on my own experiences
with God.
Kind of looking at what youwere going through has been
helpful to go Like I think Iknow God because you stayed
around, because God kept youaround.
So I mean I think mine and mybrother's and even my father's
(04:22):
life wouldn't have beendifferent if God would have been
different, if God had notintervened in that place of
sadness for you.
So when you started to kind ofgrow in your relationship with
God, where did you feel like youwere meant to take your family?
I know?
For a while there we were allkind of like Mom, what are you
talking about?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I remember you having my friends come in and pray,
and I mean just, I mean all mypothead friends, all my
brother's friends.
I mean we had to come aroundthe table and pray.
What were you thinking at thattime about what it meant to
bring your family along?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Hmm, you know what?
I don't know that I wasactually thinking that I had to
bring my family around.
I think that I was just sooverjoyed and so astounded by
what I was learning that Iwanted you all to learn it too.
(05:20):
You know I wanted to share it.
I wanted to be quote thewitness that they're talking
about.
You know, everybody's supposedto be a witness.
So you know, I wanted to bethis witness and I wanted to be
the witness in my, in my ownhousehold.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, it's funny because you, you were, but we
were real mad.
Some stuff started changing.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I was mad.
I remember you all having tosit around the kitchen table and
do these forced Bible studiesthat I would make you all do, so
you know it was all in mylearning, the Bible was opening
up to me so richly and I waslike, oh my goodness, my family
(06:01):
needs to hear this too, you know.
So that's where that was yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
so let's talk about, let's talk about, um, the moment
in the car.
So I don't know if you rememberthis, but uh, for those you
know, we, I wrote about itbecause it's really important me
to to ground people in thisunderstanding that I knew God
before I met white Jesus and tomake that very clear, because in
(06:33):
a lot of ways, the rejection ofany kind of knowing of God
apart from white Jesus meant arejection of my family, and not
just that, but a rejection ofthe ways that God has shown up
for me in my own sort ofcultural context.
And so I just want to know,kind of, what you were thinking.
So you're in the car with me.
We almost T-boned this car.
Do you remember this story?
Can you tell it from yourperspective?
The story of the bumper sticker?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
What I remember about that is that I was like Lord.
What am I going to say to thischild?
That's what I remember, becauseyou asked me Mom, how do I know
that God is real?
And I remember thinking, oh, oh, how would she know that God is
real?
And I said because I believe,because he has shown me he was
(07:20):
real.
And I believe that if you askhim he will show you.
And it was just as much asurprise to me as it was to you
to look in front of us and seethat license plate that said God
is real.
So I mean it was like whoa, hereally is real.
(07:40):
So I think it just shows howmuch you love both of us for
that moment in that way.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Mm.
Hmm, yeah, I say I mean I justthink about that.
That was powerful and I thinkthere's there's such richness
there as I'm thinking about andI'm writing.
There's a whole chapter namedafter you in this new book and I
think that like just payinghomage to you and to our
tradition.
But I was thinking about it.
So tell me what you noticed.
I'd love to hear from yourperspective what it was like for
(08:10):
you to watch me go into whiteevangelicalism.
Now it's all out, now that Ihave KC as a cult it's shut down
, mike Bickle has been exposed,all the leadership has been
exposed, and so that's not asecret.
But I'd love to hear from yourperspective what it was like for
you from the day I came homeand told you I was saved.
(08:32):
Now, after we had spent allthose years together talking
about God and me hearing fromGod and being like mommy what
does this mean?
And to going to now I'm saved,now I know God, and it's about
this white Jesus I met at thisplay I just went to.
So can you tell me from yourperspective, what was it like to
watch me sort of go towards amore white evangelicalism in my
(08:53):
faith?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
oh, my gosh right on time indeed indeed.
I guess that's really what itwas.
I need to go to Jesus.
Indeed, indeed.
I guess that's really what itwas.
I need to know what it isBecause let me see To me, you
have always been a veryprecocious child and you have
(09:37):
always had a mind of your own,which I have encouraged.
Okay, Even to the point ofsometimes I would say to myself
oh Lord, I told her that, but Ididn't really know that she was
going to actually do it, youknow.
So I was concerned.
(09:58):
I think is the word I wasconcerned, I think is the word I
was concerned.
I wasn't so much worried aboutthe God part, because I've
always believed that God willtake care of us, but I was very
concerned about the moving tothe right, extreme right and
(10:20):
moving away from what you havealways known and what I consider
to be trusted resources, okay,and so it was very hard for me.
You're not worried about you.
I didn't know what was going on.
You know your views seem to bevery extreme and changing from
(10:43):
what I felt like your foundationwas, and so it was difficult,
and all in the context ofknowing that you love God.
So, I was worried about you.
I didn't want you to be there.
I wanted you to come home andcome back and go to our church
(11:07):
and be like a normal Christian,you know.
But I also know and I'm holdingmy hands like this because I
also know that God holds you aswell.
So it was very hard, but theonly way, and the only way I
really got through it was withthe faith that God has hold
(11:30):
holds you, asha, all right.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well, you mentioned something I'd love to talk about
.
Let's talk about our church.
I think one thing that man youmentioned something earlier when
we were talking.
You said when you met God itwas like.
This is so astounding andexciting.
I just want y'all to know, andI will never forget, that I
started to come into contactwith this this at the time.
(11:56):
His name was Pastor Brown andhe was the only person that I
could hear talk about scripturein a way that made sense and
that touched me deeply and kindof like you were talking about,
like this sort of foundationalresources.
And Pastor Brown is now Bishop.
Kim Brown goes by Bishop and tomy dying day I will say that was
the place that called out giftsin me.
(12:17):
And to my dying day, I will saythat was the place that called
out gifts in me.
I remember him saying to me onetime you're an evangelist and
you know it's very true.
Now I think about with anythingthat I do, if I'm finding that
it's life giving and that it'sfreeing, I'm not talking about
it.
And he called that out in meway back, way back before I met
white Jesus.
(12:42):
But the other thing that I loveabout Bishop um, it's just the
way he does church.
So tell us a little bit aboutMount Lebanon, talk to us about
Elder Brown and kind of what'shappening there.
I know there's been a um, atransition recently, which is
even more exciting, but itspeaks to um the fact that I
will never say I never had agood example of um Christ-like
leadership in my life that wasgrounded and connected to
(13:04):
community and to the spirit.
And now I mean I'll go intosome of the conversations in a
little bit, but tell us aboutMount Lebanon, tell us about the
Mount.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
You know, we got to the Mount because of you.
You had heard Pastor Brown atthat time, um, speaking, and we
were going to another church,but I always wanted us to go to
church together.
So, you know, we started, we wehad been to this particular
church, um, we had been to MountLebanon every New Year's, cause
(13:35):
we have friends who went thereon New Year's Eve.
So we had started going thereon New Year's Eve, but you were
the one who said oh, y'all haveto come to this church on Sunday
.
This pastor is on fire.
So we started to come and again, and what I loved about the
(13:58):
Mount, and still love about theMount, is that it it kind of
exemplifies for me what Jesus isall about and what church
should be.
The model of the Mount ischurches should change lives.
And church is a model.
(14:19):
We do change lives at the Mount, but even more than that,
bishop now has a unique gift ofseeing things that are there
that you might not evenrecognize or see, and so I
wanted to join the Mount mount,but he said wait for your
(14:41):
husband to join.
And so even that talks abouthow family and how he looks at
family.
So your dad one Sunday, you know, took my hand and we all went
up like hasties and we joinedthe mount.
The thing, uh, also about theMount is I don't feel like
(15:04):
Bishop and Elder are afraid tochange.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I feel like.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
I feel like we all love traditional church and what
we were brought up intraditional church, but it gave
us a foundation for change aswell, and it speaks from the
word.
And now LJ, which is his son,is now the pastor and the word
is spoken.
(15:31):
It might not be spoken in theold ways, but it's spoken.
Even the music is different,but the word is in the music.
And to me that's extremelyimportant, you know it goes
through all of the generations.
So that's what I like about theMount.
It's always been that way.
Bishop respects the olderpeople in church, as well as the
(15:56):
younger people in church.
You know there's a place therefor everybody, and that's what I
love about it.
And I could go on and on.
I don't feel judged at themouth, that's for sure.
You know, I have four kids, allwith individual issues.
(16:17):
And I don't feel judged orgossiped about you know, I just
feel comfortable there, so itreally is my home church.
It's not perfect but it doeschange lives and I feel like our
family fits well into thatfamily of the Mount or at the
Mount Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
It does, and it's a perfect way, I think, for folks.
So for those of you who arelistening who are wondering okay
, so what do I do?
I've kind of I've walked awayfrom toxic religion but don't
know where I want to go.
I think what my mom just saidis a really helpful frame to go.
Where does my family fit best?
Where can we feel not judged?
(16:59):
And I think it's okay to returnto the places that we may have
left, as long as all of us isallowed and as long as all of us
feels welcome in that space.
And I wanted to kind of narrowdown on that because I remember
the role that church and BishopBrown has played has been
(17:19):
life-changing for me on severalfronts.
So I remember when I went toIHOP, I came to Bishop and told
him about it and he furrowed hiseyebrow and was like all right,
just keep in touch.
You know I come back.
And at this point I come backand I start going to the Mount
Well regularly.
I'm home, I'm married and Ihave a baby and a completely
different life stage, and Bishopand I still connected and I
(17:42):
think he knew what was going onwith me and he had a way to
speak to the deepest things onthe inside of me.
That caused me to like kind ofsee some things.
And so I was there when Istarted subculture.
I was there when I got adivorce.
I was there.
As you know, I healed in myprocess.
And then I was there when I wasouted and I want to talk about
(18:05):
that a little bit before I askyou those questions.
But I remember going to Bishopand finding out that he already
knew I was queer, that I hadbeen outed to him and I had been
waiting to kind of talk to himabout it.
Because in a situation likethat, when a person has a
realization, it's a very smallcircle of people you feel safe
(18:26):
to tell that with, because somany things about your
relationships change.
People ask questions aboutthings from history and it's
like a process that you want tobe in control of.
But my process I wasn't reallyin control of.
So there was a lot of runningaround, finding who knew, trying
to explain to people and it wasa hard time.
And I remember talking to Bishopand Bishop saying you know
(18:48):
where I'm at, but I know you,love God.
That was literally it.
He didn't condemn me.
He didn't judge me.
He affirmed my love for God.
My love for God, and I thinkthat was the moment I needed to
really feel like I am seen andknown and I'm loved, because it
had been a hard bout ofconversations with people who
were saying really horrible,horrific, hurtful things to me.
(19:10):
So to have Bishop look at megave me so much confidence and
that's when I moved to Richmond.
It was almost like I needed theclosure because so much had been
said over me, but somethingthat never happens and I think
you know I have a lot of peoplewho are ex-evangelicals that
listen.
I have a lot of people who areprogressives that listen.
I have a lot of people who arelike I don't know what I am.
(19:33):
And then I have a lot of peoplewho are still figuring out
their own identities and I thinkit would be helpful for them to
hear from you what that waslike for you, my coming out
process, and I think what I'dlike for you to talk about is
(19:54):
what God, in particular, said toyou around that you around that
it's your fault.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
You told me to think it's been difficult.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Be as honest as possible.
Don't hold back.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
It's been difficult, but I would say that a few years
ago, when this whole, when yououted, as you say, I was at a
whole different place than I amnow, you know.
(20:41):
Now, well, let me take thisI've been praying and I, you
know, I prayed when you firstcame out.
I've been praying all the whileand I'm still praying about it
because, um, because it's hard.
And you, what God, I believe,has said to me is that I don't
(21:07):
have a heaven and I don't have ahell to put anybody in.
You are their mother and all Iwant you to do is love them.
And that's what I believe andthat's what I am working toward
(21:31):
doing Now.
Earlier in the broadcast, I saidwhen you first left, I felt
like God was holding you in hishands.
It hasn't changed.
I still feel like God isholding you in his hands.
It hasn't changed.
I still feel like God isholding you in his hands and I
love you, no matter what.
(21:52):
So the way God talks to me islike and you know I said it all
Christianity, he said, but whathe said was listen, you don't
have a heaven or hell to putthat child in.
So all I want, okay so you knowwhat, what else, but that I'm
holding her.
I'm holding you, you're hermother, you know.
(22:14):
And what can I?
You know?
What else is there to say?
I'm not where I was two yearsago.
You know, I'm just growing andlearning, and growing and
learning, and growing andlearning.
And I'll say one more thing myscripture, even from the time I
(22:37):
don't know when I was given thisscripture, but I've always had
it in my heart, and it's Psalm24.
The earth is the Lord's, andthe fullness thereof and all who
live in it belong to him, andso that's the scripture that
came to mind.
(22:57):
The earth is the Lord's, and thefullness thereof and everything
in it, and so he's the judge.
He's the one, not me all I cando is love god, love my children
and my family and keep itmoving.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I hope that answers the question it does, and I
remember you telling me that youalso felt a heart for the
parents, right Like God askingyou where are the mothers?
Do you want to say more aboutthat or not right now?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
To me feel like I'm a quiet leader.
In a way I'm a quiet example,and I do sort of feel like I
(23:58):
don't know how to put it inwords I don't know, you may have
to edit this because I do sortof feel like there are not
enough mothers willing to standup for not 100% perfect kids and
(24:20):
I think perfect kids lightly,it's not just kids who are queer
or gay, it's kids who haveissues, it's kids who may have
drug problems, it's kids who maybe out on the street, it's kids
who are carrying guns.
I mean, I see negatives, but Iwould love to see more mothers
(24:46):
who are rooted and rounded,rooted and grounded in God and
out there really just loving thekids and so I don't know what
that means for me.
Yet, like I said, god has justgiven me kind of a glimmer or a
glance of that, but I've learnedwith God.
Glimmer and glances for meusually turn out to be something
(25:10):
that I do, so that's how I feelabout that.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
That's so good and so what I would love.
I know that when I post thisepisode between me and my
brother, jt, and my brotherReggie and my other sister,
markeia, between us and all ourcommunities and friends all of
us can say we were mothered well, I mean extremely well.
(25:36):
There's just nobody like you.
We are so lucky to have had you.
You, we are so lucky to havehad you, and I think that
there's so much that you offerto so many, not just directly in
us but like through us, theways, the things that you've
taught us and the lessons.
And I think about my brother andthe ways how compassionate he
(25:57):
is, and I think about my otherbrother and how soft-spoken and
observant he is.
And Markeia is just herself,you know, and I'm like we got
that from you and from daddy andI'm really, really grateful for
you.
And as we like start to kind oflike land the plane a little
bit, I want to know, kind of,what you're chewing on these
days, what.
So when we do these episodes,we ask everybody, you know, what
(26:20):
are you bringing from the rebel?
What are you binging?
So?
Is there something that you'vebeen?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
reading or watching or that's fascinating you right
now, and then what are somewords to live by?
So, whenever you're ready andwhatever, or feel free to answer
those questions, um, let's see,I am really uh, I will call it
kind of expanding what I what Iread, um, I'm reading bishop's
book, of course, on boiling ourchildren, but I'm also getting
(27:01):
very interested in the works ofChristina Cleveland, who wrote
God is a Black Woman, and alsothe book Too Heavy a Yoke.
So I'm reading those.
But in addition to that andit's kind of like maybe an
(27:21):
awesome moral I'm also umreading and chewing on live long
, finish strong by gloriacopeland.
So, um, you know, I've alwaysdone that, I've always been an
avid reader, and so those arethe things that I'm kind of
chopping on now.
And I would just say, as far aswords to live by, my favorite
(27:47):
scripture is Hebrews 35.
Do not throw away your perfectconfidence, for in it there's
great reward.
You have need to persevere, allright, so you will receive the
reward after you have done whatGod has promised, after you have
done his will for you.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
You're welcome everybody.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Perseverance.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Asha, you're incredible.
I'm glad forever I have yourDNA.
I'm glad forever I have yourDNA.
And next week, after this one,I'm going to play an episode
with Uncle Demi on it, talkingabout our ancestry and the story
of our family.
Yeah, it's time for people tomeet my people.
You know, nice, it's importantfor people to know who I am and
(28:41):
the foundations that areresponsible for me.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Can I redo my scripture?
Do it again?
Yeah, Because I misspoke.
He was 1035.
Okay, and it is.
Do not throw away yourconfidence, for in it there is
great reward.
You have need to persevere, foryou will receive the rewards of
(29:11):
God after you have done what hehas asked you.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I see, okay.
Thank you, mommy, you'rewelcome.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Love you too.
Bye.
You're welcome.
Love you too.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to pickyour money and your heart is
donate to subcluture inc andclear the path for black
students today.
What's up everybody, welcome back to this episode of
Life After 11.
I'm your host, tameeSpencer-Helms, and this week
y'all I am joined by thehonorable, the one and only the
maker of me, lori Hasty, my ownmother.
As y'all know, this is the 40thbirthday anniversary special,
so what I'm doing isinterviewing people who play a
(00:22):
significant role in my life, whoshaped me spiritually.
If you know and have read FaithUnleavened, then you know about
the chapter that takes place inmy mom's 1984 Audi, and so we
are going to meet the womanherself, lori Hasty.
Welcome to the show.
Hi, mommy, hi, how are you?
I'm great, I'm great, I'm great, I'm great, and so I think you
(01:01):
know.
People, obviously that haveread the book know that you saw
that, showed me that God wasreal, because I watched the ways
that your life changed.
Can you tell me a little bitabout your own story leading up
to the moment where you kind ofgave yourself to God?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, I was raised pretty much.
Well, I'll say that my familyalways went to church.
I always remember church beingin my life and I have loved God
since I was a little girl for avery long time.
But I would say that I was alsoraised in a very traditional
(01:46):
Catholic parochial school and inCatholic parochial school there
were a lot of rules and moresthat I learned to follow.
So I love God.
I always wanted to please God.
I've always had a prayer life.
But as I grew older and laterinto my adulthood although I was
practicing um Catholicism tosome extent, but I actually
(02:11):
actually I um went over and tobe a Methodist after I got
married.
So I was active in theMethodist church.
As you know, always had you alldoing something and singing in
the choir, doing something inthe Methodist church.
So, again, I've always lovedGod.
But it wasn't until I began toexperience an extremely deep
(02:33):
depression I mean a really,really deep depression that I
can now identify as probably adepression that would have taken
me out.
I believe that that that Godspoke to me.
And at that time, the mostmiraculous thing happened.
The only scripture I reallyknew at that time, the only one
(02:55):
that I had really memorized, wasthe Lord is my shepherd.
I just repeated that over andover again, and I just repeated
that over and over again.
Let's make a long story short.
I went to a conference thatjust quote happened to be in my
area and you all you and yourdad and your brothers have never
(03:17):
been away from me.
Just so happened that weekendyou all were away.
I went to the conference and Igave my life to Christ.
Now, what that did for me wasgive me a more real relationship
.
It wasn't a service kind ofprayer, confession, go to church
relationship.
It became a very personalrelationship with Christ.
(03:37):
So that's pretty much my story.
Ever since then I feel likeI've had a personal relationship
.
It's had ups and downs, but Ibelieve that my relationship
with God is a lot different anda lot more personable than it
was when I was growing up.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
It does, mommy, great job.
Just be you.
It's great.
And this is good for me toobecause it helps it.
It adds so much.
Now in my own life as I lookback on on my own experiences
with God.
Kind of looking at what youwere going through has been
helpful to go Like I think Iknow God because you stayed
around, because God kept youaround.
So I mean I think mine and mybrother's and even my father's
(04:22):
life wouldn't have beendifferent if God would have been
different, if God had notintervened in that place of
sadness for you.
So when you started to kind ofgrow in your relationship with
God, where did you feel like youwere meant to take your family?
I know?
For a while there we were allkind of like Mom, what are you
talking about?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I remember you having my friends come in and pray,
and I mean just, I mean all mypothead friends, all my
brother's friends.
I mean we had to come aroundthe table and pray.
What were you thinking at thattime about what it meant to
bring your family along?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Hmm, you know what?
I don't know that I wasactually thinking that I had to
bring my family around.
I think that I was just sooverjoyed and so astounded by
what I was learning that Iwanted you all to learn it too.
(05:20):
You know I wanted to share it.
I wanted to be quote thewitness that they're talking
about.
You know, everybody's supposedto be a witness.
So you know, I wanted to bethis witness and I wanted to be
the witness in my, in my ownhousehold.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, it's funny because you, you were, but we
were real mad.
Some stuff started changing.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I was mad.
I remember you all having tosit around the kitchen table and
do these forced Bible studiesthat I would make you all do, so
you know it was all in mylearning, the Bible was opening
up to me so richly and I waslike, oh my goodness, my family
(06:01):
needs to hear this too, you know.
So that's where that was yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
so let's talk about, let's talk about, um, the moment
in the car.
So I don't know if you rememberthis, but uh, for those you
know, we, I wrote about itbecause it's really important me
to to ground people in thisunderstanding that I knew God
before I met white Jesus and tomake that very clear, because in
(06:33):
a lot of ways, the rejection ofany kind of knowing of God
apart from white Jesus meant arejection of my family, and not
just that, but a rejection ofthe ways that God has shown up
for me in my own sort ofcultural context.
And so I just want to know,kind of, what you were thinking.
So you're in the car with me.
We almost T-boned this car.
Do you remember this story?
Can you tell it from yourperspective?
The story of the bumper sticker?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
What I remember about that is that I was like Lord.
What am I going to say to thischild?
That's what I remember, becauseyou asked me Mom, how do I know
that God is real?
And I remember thinking, oh, oh, how would she know that God is
real?
And I said because I believe,because he has shown me he was
(07:20):
real.
And I believe that if you askhim he will show you.
And it was just as much asurprise to me as it was to you
to look in front of us and seethat license plate that said God
is real.
So I mean it was like whoa, hereally is real.
(07:40):
So I think it just shows howmuch you love both of us for
that moment in that way.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Mm.
Hmm, yeah, I say I mean I justthink about that.
That was powerful and I thinkthere's there's such richness
there as I'm thinking about andI'm writing.
There's a whole chapter namedafter you in this new book and I
think that like just payinghomage to you and to our
tradition.
But I was thinking about it.
So tell me what you noticed.
I'd love to hear from yourperspective what it was like for
(08:10):
you to watch me go into whiteevangelicalism.
Now it's all out, now that Ihave KC as a cult it's shut down
, mike Bickle has been exposed,all the leadership has been
exposed, and so that's not asecret.
But I'd love to hear from yourperspective what it was like for
you from the day I came homeand told you I was saved.
(08:32):
Now, after we had spent allthose years together talking
about God and me hearing fromGod and being like mommy what
does this mean?
And to going to now I'm saved,now I know God, and it's about
this white Jesus I met at thisplay I just went to.
So can you tell me from yourperspective, what was it like to
watch me sort of go towards amore white evangelicalism in my
(08:53):
faith?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
oh, my gosh right on time indeed indeed.
I guess that's really what itwas.
I need to go to Jesus.
Indeed, indeed.
I guess that's really what itwas.
I need to know what it isBecause let me see To me, you
have always been a veryprecocious child and you have
(09:37):
always had a mind of your own,which I have encouraged.
Okay, Even to the point ofsometimes I would say to myself
oh Lord, I told her that, but Ididn't really know that she was
going to actually do it, youknow.
So I was concerned.
(09:58):
I think is the word I wasconcerned, I think is the word I
was concerned.
I wasn't so much worried aboutthe God part, because I've
always believed that God willtake care of us, but I was very
concerned about the moving tothe right, extreme right and
(10:20):
moving away from what you havealways known and what I consider
to be trusted resources, okay,and so it was very hard for me.
You're not worried about you.
I didn't know what was going on.
You know your views seem to bevery extreme and changing from
(10:43):
what I felt like your foundationwas, and so it was difficult,
and all in the context ofknowing that you love God.
So, I was worried about you.
I didn't want you to be there.
I wanted you to come home andcome back and go to our church
(11:07):
and be like a normal Christian,you know.
But I also know and I'm holdingmy hands like this because I
also know that God holds you aswell.
So it was very hard, but theonly way, and the only way I
really got through it was withthe faith that God has hold
(11:30):
holds you, asha, all right.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well, you mentioned something I'd love to talk about
.
Let's talk about our church.
I think one thing that man youmentioned something earlier when
we were talking.
You said when you met God itwas like.
This is so astounding andexciting.
I just want y'all to know, andI will never forget, that I
started to come into contactwith this this at the time.
(11:56):
His name was Pastor Brown andhe was the only person that I
could hear talk about scripturein a way that made sense and
that touched me deeply and kindof like you were talking about,
like this sort of foundationalresources.
And Pastor Brown is now Bishop.
Kim Brown goes by Bishop and tomy dying day I will say that was
the place that called out giftsin me.
(12:17):
And to my dying day, I will saythat was the place that called
out gifts in me.
I remember him saying to me onetime you're an evangelist and
you know it's very true.
Now I think about with anythingthat I do, if I'm finding that
it's life giving and that it'sfreeing, I'm not talking about
it.
And he called that out in meway back, way back before I met
white Jesus.
(12:42):
But the other thing that I loveabout Bishop um, it's just the
way he does church.
So tell us a little bit aboutMount Lebanon, talk to us about
Elder Brown and kind of what'shappening there.
I know there's been a um, atransition recently, which is
even more exciting, but itspeaks to um the fact that I
will never say I never had agood example of um Christ-like
leadership in my life that wasgrounded and connected to
(13:04):
community and to the spirit.
And now I mean I'll go intosome of the conversations in a
little bit, but tell us aboutMount Lebanon, tell us about the
Mount.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
You know, we got to the Mount because of you.
You had heard Pastor Brown atthat time, um, speaking, and we
were going to another church,but I always wanted us to go to
church together.
So, you know, we started, we wehad been to this particular
church, um, we had been to MountLebanon every New Year's, cause
(13:35):
we have friends who went thereon New Year's Eve.
So we had started going thereon New Year's Eve, but you were
the one who said oh, y'all haveto come to this church on Sunday
.
This pastor is on fire.
So we started to come and again, and what I loved about the
(13:58):
Mount, and still love about theMount, is that it it kind of
exemplifies for me what Jesus isall about and what church
should be.
The model of the Mount ischurches should change lives.
And church is a model.
(14:19):
We do change lives at the Mount, but even more than that,
bishop now has a unique gift ofseeing things that are there
that you might not evenrecognize or see, and so I
wanted to join the Mount mount,but he said wait for your
(14:41):
husband to join.
And so even that talks abouthow family and how he looks at
family.
So your dad one Sunday, you know, took my hand and we all went
up like hasties and we joinedthe mount.
The thing, uh, also about theMount is I don't feel like
(15:04):
Bishop and Elder are afraid tochange.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I feel like.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
I feel like we all love traditional church and what
we were brought up intraditional church, but it gave
us a foundation for change aswell, and it speaks from the
word.
And now LJ, which is his son,is now the pastor and the word
is spoken.
(15:31):
It might not be spoken in theold ways, but it's spoken.
Even the music is different,but the word is in the music.
And to me that's extremelyimportant, you know it goes
through all of the generations.
So that's what I like about theMount.
It's always been that way.
Bishop respects the olderpeople in church, as well as the
(15:56):
younger people in church.
You know there's a place therefor everybody, and that's what I
love about it.
And I could go on and on.
I don't feel judged at themouth, that's for sure.
You know, I have four kids, allwith individual issues.
(16:17):
And I don't feel judged orgossiped about you know, I just
feel comfortable there, so itreally is my home church.
It's not perfect but it doeschange lives and I feel like our
family fits well into thatfamily of the Mount or at the
Mount Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
It does, and it's a perfect way, I think, for folks.
So for those of you who arelistening who are wondering okay
, so what do I do?
I've kind of I've walked awayfrom toxic religion but don't
know where I want to go.
I think what my mom just saidis a really helpful frame to go.
Where does my family fit best?
Where can we feel not judged?
(16:59):
And I think it's okay to returnto the places that we may have
left, as long as all of us isallowed and as long as all of us
feels welcome in that space.
And I wanted to kind of narrowdown on that because I remember
the role that church and BishopBrown has played has been
(17:19):
life-changing for me on severalfronts.
So I remember when I went toIHOP, I came to Bishop and told
him about it and he furrowed hiseyebrow and was like all right,
just keep in touch.
You know I come back.
And at this point I come backand I start going to the Mount
Well regularly.
I'm home, I'm married and Ihave a baby and a completely
different life stage, and Bishopand I still connected and I
(17:42):
think he knew what was going onwith me and he had a way to
speak to the deepest things onthe inside of me.
That caused me to like kind ofsee some things.
And so I was there when Istarted subculture.
I was there when I got adivorce.
I was there.
As you know, I healed in myprocess.
And then I was there when I wasouted and I want to talk about
(18:05):
that a little bit before I askyou those questions.
But I remember going to Bishopand finding out that he already
knew I was queer, that I hadbeen outed to him and I had been
waiting to kind of talk to himabout it.
Because in a situation likethat, when a person has a
realization, it's a very smallcircle of people you feel safe
(18:26):
to tell that with, because somany things about your
relationships change.
People ask questions aboutthings from history and it's
like a process that you want tobe in control of.
But my process I wasn't reallyin control of.
So there was a lot of runningaround, finding who knew, trying
to explain to people and it wasa hard time.
And I remember talking to Bishopand Bishop saying you know
(18:48):
where I'm at, but I know you,love God.
That was literally it.
He didn't condemn me.
He didn't judge me.
He affirmed my love for God.
My love for God, and I thinkthat was the moment I needed to
really feel like I am seen andknown and I'm loved, because it
had been a hard bout ofconversations with people who
were saying really horrible,horrific, hurtful things to me.
(19:10):
So to have Bishop look at megave me so much confidence and
that's when I moved to Richmond.
It was almost like I needed theclosure because so much had been
said over me, but somethingthat never happens and I think
you know I have a lot of peoplewho are ex-evangelicals that
listen.
I have a lot of people who areprogressives that listen.
I have a lot of people who arelike I don't know what I am.
(19:33):
And then I have a lot of peoplewho are still figuring out
their own identities and I thinkit would be helpful for them to
hear from you what that waslike for you, my coming out
process, and I think what I'dlike for you to talk about is
(19:54):
what God, in particular, said toyou around that you around that
it's your fault.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
You told me to think it's been difficult.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Be as honest as possible.
Don't hold back.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
It's been difficult, but I would say that a few years
ago, when this whole, when yououted, as you say, I was at a
whole different place than I amnow, you know.
(20:41):
Now, well, let me take thisI've been praying and I, you
know, I prayed when you firstcame out.
I've been praying all the whileand I'm still praying about it
because, um, because it's hard.
And you, what God, I believe,has said to me is that I don't
(21:07):
have a heaven and I don't have ahell to put anybody in.
You are their mother and all Iwant you to do is love them.
And that's what I believe andthat's what I am working toward
(21:31):
doing Now.
Earlier in the broadcast, I saidwhen you first left, I felt
like God was holding you in hishands.
It hasn't changed.
I still feel like God isholding you in his hands.
It hasn't changed.
I still feel like God isholding you in his hands and I
love you, no matter what.
(21:52):
So the way God talks to me islike and you know I said it all
Christianity, he said, but whathe said was listen, you don't
have a heaven or hell to putthat child in.
So all I want, okay so you knowwhat, what else, but that I'm
holding her.
I'm holding you, you're hermother, you know.
(22:14):
And what can I?
You know?
What else is there to say?
I'm not where I was two yearsago.
You know, I'm just growing andlearning, and growing and
learning, and growing andlearning.
And I'll say one more thing myscripture, even from the time I
(22:37):
don't know when I was given thisscripture, but I've always had
it in my heart, and it's Psalm24.
The earth is the Lord's, andthe fullness thereof and all who
live in it belong to him, andso that's the scripture that
came to mind.
(22:57):
The earth is the Lord's, and thefullness thereof and everything
in it, and so he's the judge.
He's the one, not me all I cando is love god, love my children
and my family and keep itmoving.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I hope that answers the question it does, and I
remember you telling me that youalso felt a heart for the
parents, right Like God askingyou where are the mothers?
Do you want to say more aboutthat or not right now?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
To me feel like I'm a quiet leader.
In a way I'm a quiet example,and I do sort of feel like I
(23:58):
don't know how to put it inwords I don't know, you may have
to edit this because I do sortof feel like there are not
enough mothers willing to standup for not 100% perfect kids and
(24:20):
I think perfect kids lightly,it's not just kids who are queer
or gay, it's kids who haveissues, it's kids who may have
drug problems, it's kids who maybe out on the street, it's kids
who are carrying guns.
I mean, I see negatives, but Iwould love to see more mothers
(24:46):
who are rooted and rounded,rooted and grounded in God and
out there really just loving thekids and so I don't know what
that means for me.
Yet, like I said, god has justgiven me kind of a glimmer or a
glance of that, but I've learnedwith God.
Glimmer and glances for meusually turn out to be something
(25:10):
that I do, so that's how I feelabout that.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
That's so good and so what I would love.
I know that when I post thisepisode between me and my
brother, jt, and my brotherReggie and my other sister,
markeia, between us and all ourcommunities and friends all of
us can say we were mothered well, I mean extremely well.
(25:36):
There's just nobody like you.
We are so lucky to have had you.
You, we are so lucky to havehad you, and I think that
there's so much that you offerto so many, not just directly in
us but like through us, theways, the things that you've
taught us and the lessons.
And I think about my brother andthe ways how compassionate he
(25:57):
is, and I think about my otherbrother and how soft-spoken and
observant he is.
And Markeia is just herself,you know, and I'm like we got
that from you and from daddy andI'm really, really grateful for
you.
And as we like start to kind oflike land the plane a little
bit, I want to know, kind of,what you're chewing on these
days, what.
So when we do these episodes,we ask everybody, you know, what
(26:20):
are you bringing from the rebel?
What are you binging?
So?
Is there something that you'vebeen?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
reading or watching or that's fascinating you right
now, and then what are somewords to live by?
So, whenever you're ready andwhatever, or feel free to answer
those questions, um, let's see,I am really uh, I will call it
kind of expanding what I what Iread, um, I'm reading bishop's
book, of course, on boiling ourchildren, but I'm also getting
(27:01):
very interested in the works ofChristina Cleveland, who wrote
God is a Black Woman, and alsothe book Too Heavy a Yoke.
So I'm reading those.
But in addition to that andit's kind of like maybe an
(27:21):
awesome moral I'm also umreading and chewing on live long
, finish strong by gloriacopeland.
So, um, you know, I've alwaysdone that, I've always been an
avid reader, and so those arethe things that I'm kind of
chopping on now.
And I would just say, as far aswords to live by, my favorite
(27:47):
scripture is Hebrews 35.
Do not throw away your perfectconfidence, for in it there's
great reward.
You have need to persevere, allright, so you will receive the
reward after you have done whatGod has promised, after you have
done his will for you.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
You're welcome everybody.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Perseverance.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Asha, you're incredible.
I'm glad forever I have yourDNA.
I'm glad forever I have yourDNA.
And next week, after this one,I'm going to play an episode
with Uncle Demi on it, talkingabout our ancestry and the story
of our family.
Yeah, it's time for people tomeet my people.
You know, nice, it's importantfor people to know who I am and
(28:41):
the foundations that areresponsible for me.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Can I redo my scripture?
Do it again?
Yeah, Because I misspoke.
He was 1035.
Okay, and it is.
Do not throw away yourconfidence, for in it there is
great reward.
You have need to persevere, foryou will receive the rewards of
(29:11):
God after you have done what hehas asked you.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I see, okay.
Thank you, mommy, you'rewelcome.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Love you too.
Bye.
You're welcome.
Love you too.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to pickyour money and your heart is
donate to subcluture inc andclear the path for black
students today.
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