November 23, 2023 • 50 mins
Can you imagine standing up against white supremacy, enduring the aftermath of such a brave act and then coming out of it with a renewed commitment to justice and truth? Join us for a profound conversation with Michelle Higgins, a senior pastor and co-founder of Action St Louis and Faith for Justice. Michelle takes us through her inspiring journey, reflecting on her powerful 2015 Urbana speech and the journey that followed. Her respect for stalwarts like Ella Baker and Fannie Lou Hamer lights the way as we confront the complexities of faith and black radicalism.
The conversation takes a deeper turn as we navigate the uneasy intersection of blackness, queerness, and Christianity. We delve into the troubling reality of how the church has been infiltrated by the evils born from an identity of massacre - whiteness. Edie Smith's personal journey of rejection and acceptance paves a path to understanding the connection between blackness, queerness, and Jesus. Our discussion with Reverend Tracy Blackman further emphasizes the need to dismantle arrogance and pride, revealing the importance of humility and righteousness on our anti-racism journey.
As we wrap up our spirited dialogue, we accentuate the essence of queer liberation and the supportive environment necessary to traverse this journey. We invite you to lean into your doubts and questions, embracing the divine presence through it all. We end our session instilling the power of love as a tool and weapon, encouraging listeners to be rooted in faith, hope, and love. Let's remember the love that flows through our ancestors and descendants as we continue the fight for justice. Tune in, be challenged, be inspired, and above all, be encouraged.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What's up everybody.
Welcome back to this episode ofLife.
After Levin, I'm your host tome, spencer Helms, and my guest
today needs no introduction, butfor those of y'all who are
sleep, I want you to meetMichelle Higgins.
I'm going to have Michelleintroduce herself and tell us a
little about who she is and whatshe does and where you live.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, hey everybody.
Oh, I'm so grateful to be here.
My name is Michelle I use herpronouns.
I'm the senior pastor at StJohn's Church, the beloved
community on the north side ofSt Louis City, and I'm very
proud of that, in no small partbecause St John's is the place
(00:40):
where Action St Louis was born.
Action St Louis is the largestblack radical political power
home in the state of Missouri,and being co-founder there is a
real source of pride and joy forme.
I'm also a co-founder of Faithfor Justice, which is a
Christian advocacy organizationthat travels around and does a
(01:01):
lot of work in the state andalso nationally, and probably
most folks will remember or knowme from having spoken at Urbana
in 2015.
And it's not something I everwant or need to live down, but I
really appreciate all of theopportunities that have come
(01:22):
from that.
Some podcast history, a formerco-host of Truth's Table but now
living squarely in the midst ofworking with the movement for
Black Lives, mostly in electoraljustice, but generally working
through those interfaithdimensions at the intersections
of faith and black radicalismand how do we really see power
(01:46):
for people without apology,without shame and with a lot of
joy.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So let me just jump in because I have to lay some
groundwork here.
I'm a little I'm fangirlingagain this week, but there's a
little bit of a backstory in acontext to why I wanted to have
you on the show.
Because you were veryinstrumental in the very
beginning of my process ofcoming out as queer and coming
out to well being outed andowning that basically.
But what.
(02:15):
I wanted to talk to you aboutwas so in the book I wrote.
So the podcast is named aftermy book, faith Unleavened, and
in the book I talk about whenyou spoke I don't name you, but
for those who have the book,this is the person who was
speaking on the stage and I tellthe story about how I was in
the.
I was actually in theintercession space at Urbana and
(02:38):
got hit with travail likereally hard and, needless to say
, it was right at the momentwhere you called out white
supremacy and I got hit withtravail because I felt like the
organization itself was notgoing to respond the way a lot
of the black staff would havehoped they would have responded.
And so you know it ends uphappening and we're getting text
(03:00):
messages.
You know pray, we're losingdonors.
You know they lost milliondollar donors and all that kind
of stuff, which was the firsttime I realized, oh, this
whiteness is up and througheverything.
So it was very for it to be inFerguson or for it to be in St
Louis and for us to not so faraway from Ferguson, right about
(03:20):
a year after Mike Brown, for theorganization to respond that
way was really shocking for alot of us and for me.
I think that that marked thebeginning of an end for me in
terms of the trust I had in theleaven that exists in some
organizations.
And so fast forward.
I knew who you were, I followedyou to truth table and then, in
(03:43):
adversity, released their paperon humans, on sexuality.
And that was the last kind ofstraw for me, because it felt to
me like a very much aconcession that, because they
had gotten in trouble fortalking about whiteness, the
concession was we'll come outagainst the gaze.
You know a little bit of areciprocity there.
(04:05):
And so I wanted to talk through.
Talk through some of thosethings.
What was going on for you atthe Urbana conference?
Was it something that God kindof dropped on you, or had you
planned to speak that way?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I knew from being asked.
First of all, I think it's nota secret amongst planners, folks
who have been with adversity,it's not a secret that I was
sort of their d list ask,because it's just really hard to
say yes to something like thatand also a number of our really
(04:41):
esteemed group that we callfurkets and clergy.
A number of them were, like youknow, in.
Adversity has never been aspace where blackness connects
with power in a way that'sspoken of.
You know they were still heardabout Tom Skinner and that makes
sense to me.
Right, he was the Paul Robisonof Urbana conference, you know,
(05:05):
just driven to places where itreally was the example of we
really kill and cannibalizearound our own and that history
had not left our people.
And a number of our burkets andclergy are in the denomination
that I now serve, the UnitedChurch of Christ.
And they weren't going to touchon adversity, not within all.
(05:26):
The black people in them saidno, okay.
I was working with anevangelical church and
organization at the time and Ifelt particularly called to be
culturally bilingual.
And I also felt the power ofbringing a scalpel to some,
assas to others, and I felt veryproud that I had the
(05:49):
opportunity to to be more of anobody, which is the preference
of Ella Baker, who I organizeafter she's the ancestral name
that that I call in myorganizing work, fannie Lou
Hamer, who was first andforemost a worshiper, first and
foremost a prayer warrior, andpeople that I have no, no
(06:12):
problem calling their names andremembering their work, because
it is their work, it is theirdedication that meant more to
them and also their willingnessto say hard things.
Right.
Ella Baker said hard things toDr King, fannie Lou Hamer said
hard things to the president atthe time and I felt called to do
(06:35):
that and I knew I was beingasked to speak because I had
done work with organizationsthat were born out of the fires
of Ferguson, so I knew it wasgoing to be about white
supremacy.
I knew it was.
I was being asked to to kind ofhelp make things feel better
for black staff, and I wantedthe black staff to know I wasn't
(06:56):
going to come in and make theorganization leads feel better.
I wanted to come and to comfortand to minister to them, to the
black folks in the crowd, justlike the Bible is saying always
about y'all, but truth is forall, and I think that's that's
(07:17):
part of my task.
So yeah, the original speechwas much harsher.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Edited back a couple times.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Oh, my goodness, so.
So I know in situations likethat, they they typically will
have you submit your your sermonahead of time and they'll edit
it and things like that.
But I just have to tell youthat, like you stand as a hero
for me, I think that I didn'texpect to get emotional, but I
think what I saw because I wentback and watch it.
(07:46):
Obviously I was in the prayerroom during the talk.
I went back and watched it andthought I want to be like that,
like I want to be able to be soGrounded in who I am, in the
legacy I come from, a propheticlegacy that I come from, with my
ancestors Standing in God,standing in Jesus and going.
(08:07):
I will not bend to Empire.
I will say what needs to besaid and I just felt like I
watched you do it.
You were glowing, it was justsuch a.
The moment is hard to explainbecause I saw two things at work
.
I saw a witness and I sawEmpire even in the thing that I
was kind of involved in.
(08:27):
And so when they go and Say,you know, if you're affirming,
you have to leave staff, therewas this, this real Um
experience for me, a fear aroundprovision, and so you know you
have to sign this thing and say,you know I'm going to like be
non affirming and call this sinand all of those things.
And then turns out I'm gay, soI get, I was married.
(08:51):
Oddly enough, I met the guy Imarried at that Urbana
conference and by the time, bythe time I came out, I was
divorced.
And so I was thinking throughthe realities that happened,
where the, the agenda that theysay is out here, in the way that
they kind of posited themselvesas Folks who are on the
(09:16):
defensive.
I'm realizing that a lot ofthese orgs, that whiteness
itself is always on theoffensive and that the agenda
that exists Doesn't belong tothe queer community.
They just want to live and letlive.
And so I reached out to youright after that and I said, hey
, I'm struggling.
You said, sis, I am absolutelyaffirming, you are made in the
(09:41):
image of God.
And it was like because of Ihad, because of what I saw when
you spoke, and wanting to kindof be that type of a person that
, no matter what, speaks truth.
If you to say that over me saysit was a, it was a very
galvanizing moment for mepersonally and and it really
(10:02):
kind of Removes any types ofquestions.
It's almost like a one-and-donelike okay, I'm not having
conversations with anybody elseabout whether or not I can be
queer and Christian.
Yeah, I wouldn't say now, nowwe're having conversations about
Christianity with.
That's another podcast, right.
So I want to talk a little bitabout how.
Where did that come from?
Was that a tradition that yougrew up in?
(10:24):
Was it always affirming, or wasit a decision you made?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, interestingly, I grew up in the church of God
and Christ and we have a songthat unchanged it now, girl, but
the song used to be you can'tjoin it, you have to be born in
it, coach.
It was just very locked downbut it was a don't ask, don't
tell culture.
And I, I'm a worship leader,been a worship leader almost all
(10:51):
my life and I learned how toharmonize.
I learned every Gospel lick andad lib and roll and trill that
I know from queer people, myplay uncles, my play aunties and
people who were Genderexpansive before gender
expansive was really a phrase inthe 80s.
I Know and love Gospel music,even the music that is sung by
(11:18):
bigots.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Still know and love it because of queer people.
And During the AIDS epidemic inthe 1980s, I would tell my mom
and dad, who were both Kojicpreachers, I would say we got to
go to the hospital and sit withUncle Jerry and sit with you
Know so and so and folks thatwere perishing, who were dying
(11:41):
of AIDS, and the church wasnowhere to be found and I'll
never forget it.
But I was six years old, maybeseven, when we lost people who
were very precious to me, peoplewho we knew were queer and
people who had chosen to sign onthe dotted line, much in the
ways that you're sayingUniversity was making folks to
(12:01):
do.
And yet they, they loved whothey loved, they lived how they
lived.
Our brother Bayard Rustin, oursibling Polly Murray, they, they
mean everything to me because Iwatched their direct
descendants go through,descendants in the faith, go
through things and sing Zionsongs, presence of people who
(12:25):
claim to be friends and can andactually were opposition and
maybe even enemies, folks thatdid not care that they were
perishing.
So I've been radical about theintersections of blackness and
queerness since I was sevenyears old and I watched last
breath and I tended to lesionsand I Stayed up weeping and
(12:46):
crying all night in ways thatnobody cared the pastors.
It was shocking to me that achurch born out of Black
struggle, born out of black joy,born out of hush harbor
experiences, didn't care about awhole group of people within.
And I you know I sit here andI'm a stop after this, but you
(13:10):
know my preacher so I Know I'mon with it I think about Jesus
opening the scroll at hishometown church and Saying today
, right here, this message toyou, this prophecy is being
fulfilled.
We're people in black churchesand I have to shout out my
brothers, don and Calvin, atPride in the pews, who are
(13:32):
working to see the eight allblack, historic black
denominations come to bear withthe fact that there are already
queer people in yourdenominations.
Why do you stop them out loud?
So, yeah, I highly recommendPride in the pews for anybody
that's listening and wonderingwhat do I do next?
But I was a little girl Thinkingabout Jesus opening the scroll
(13:54):
at his hometown church andspeaking a word about the
captive, about the oppressed, toa people who were oppressed,
and they got that.
If that ain't blackness andqueerness, I don't know what is
wow.
And queer people are leadingworship and they're singing and
they're writing songs the songtitles I could give you that I
know gay people wrote.
(14:15):
You wouldn't believe.
And yet when queer people speakthe gospel and live the gospel,
it's rejected, almost as if thesame folks at Jesus hometown
that wanted to stone him anddrove him to a cliff.
I have been radicalized Sectionfrom my whole.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
You.
Just I'm blown away with thisidea that that, the idea that
blackness and queerness is likeJesus telling in a press group
of people and the Responses tothat.
I just watched Truth be told.
It was a documentary and itjust came out about queerness in
the church and Edie Smith itwas on there, I think in Georgia
(15:04):
, and he said something to thefact of.
I mean, it was just so preciousthe way he talked about his own
journey, which was I had aminister, a deacon, in my church
who had been there years andyears and years.
His son came to drop somethingoff and he says I never met this
son and the deacon says well,it's cuz he's gay.
So you know, I just didn't tellanybody about him and that was
(15:26):
the moment he was like, wait aminute, what?
Like you, you don't have arelationship with your own son
because of Queerness, and sothat was his journey.
And I think for a lot of people,what we're seeing right now is
lived Experience, is shiftingpeople's theology, because the
people that you're saying aredrinking poison and all of those
things.
They're not.
(15:47):
They're not dying for manypoison, they're happy and
they're thriving and they'rethriving in a faith walk like
they're thriving in the midst ofDiscipleship, whereas there are
some folks and I want aquestion about this because I'm
finding that a lot of whitefolks when they go on this
deconstruction journey that thatkind of adds in the queerness
(16:08):
aspect, the trajectory istypically away from faith.
Um, but for me I'm stillwrestling with whether or not
Christianity is the right kindof title for me, but I do.
I can't imagine giving up Jesusand I'm trying to figure out
(16:29):
whether that you think that thatcomes from maybe our history,
or like, where does that comefrom, this idea that black folks
are really tethered to thespiritual?
I mean, the more I've come intoqueerness, the more I've come
into ancestry, the more I'vecome into all kinds of
indigenous practice that havemade me feel so much more
connected to Jesus than I everthought.
(16:49):
I mean, the white church didnot give that to me.
The way that I am encounteringthe Lord right now with these
practices where I invite myancestors and I, you know, we
light incense and we sage and wedo all of the things and we do
it in the name of Jesus, and youknow, and we do these
experiences, we come and we goin the name of Jesus.
(17:11):
What's the missing piece do youthink for folks who are white
and progressive, who typicallytend away from faith?
Do you have a thought aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, the interesting thing about any discussion on
whiteness is going to be I ambiased concerning the
definitions of whiteness andblackness.
Obviously, I'm more of a baldwinnie in, as they say.
Then I believe that whitenesshad to force itself to exist and
because people descended fromEurope refused to be the global
(17:48):
minority, and it is simply factsthat culturally they are.
Blackness made itself out ofstruggle and power and
realization that we have alwaysbeen united.
But whiteness is forced.
We wouldn't have Italiansversus Irish people and then,
all of a sudden, they're allwhite and united, and
(18:12):
spiritually I believe thatwhiteness is obsolete and it is
one of the things that in theeschatological future right,
they're already not.
Yet.
White folks are experiencingtensions because they live in
the midst of something that Godis, in the great renewal, going
to cast out, and all of a sudden, all of the blandness and shame
(18:37):
and confusion and terribletruths of the past and history
of whiteness, they'll be able tocome face to face with them and
be proud that they are nolonger clinging to an identity
that was made from massacre, andso that's the problem there.
Anytime a church loveswhiteness, they're Ichabod, as
(19:01):
the Old Testament says.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Glory to the heart.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, ain't no glory in nothing.
There's no glory in nothing.
I don't care if you mainlineprogressive as anything and have
Pride month, rainbow facepainting in your Sunday school
class, I don't care.
Whiteness will destroy you.
Because whiteness is theeasiest way for that old devil
(19:26):
who looks a lot like aconservative voter dressing up,
coming in the church Because youlook docile and you know, I
think through a lot of thethings that Carol and Bryant,
who was the reason that, emmettTill, all that happened.
And then Sarah I can't rememberthe white girl's name that was
the main complainant before themassacre in Oklahoma, greenwood
(19:52):
kind of started off, kicked off,yes, years of tension, but it
really kicked off because awhite lady got in an elevator
with a black man.
And what does it look like whenthose white folk go to church?
Who were the white folksscreaming at the little rock?
Nine, who were desegregatingschools?
They're grandparents, they'regreat grandparents.
(20:14):
What are they teaching?
And the thing that they don'twant to let go of, the thing
that they feel can be redeemed,is actually something that God
is calling a source of harm.
It's obsolete.
So that may be the biggestissue with as white folks
deconstruct, they think of theirmemories in church growing up
(20:35):
and there is nothing redeemableabout them.
They are not wrong.
They're not wrong.
The great departure, the great,you know, move, leaving out
loud.
What is it?
Just getting rid of church andgetting rid of Christianity and
calling the gospel detrimentalto their spiritual health.
They're not wrong because theirchurches probably taught more
(20:56):
whiteness than the witness ofChrist, and so one of the
reasons that your experience isdifferent is maybe similar to
mine, where I saw my queersiblings and queer elders love
the truth, love the story ofJesus, a man who did not have to
bind himself to a woman inorder to call himself worthy.
(21:20):
Look at the original pastor,the original prophet, not
needing a pastor's wife.
Look at the original prophetspending time with women,
letting women wash his feet and,you know, not getting in
trouble with them.
Not a person in ministry withouta scandal.
We've never heard of that, butJesus did it.
And Jesus did it withoutexalting marriage, without
(21:45):
exalting heteronormativity and,for goodness sake, how he didn't
exalt capitalism.
It's confusing If you're anAmerican Christian, how is that
possible?
But we saw it because blacknesscame to Christ.
In a way that kind of provesthat we might have brought it
(22:05):
with us a little bit.
Why do those rituals bring youcloser to Jesus?
I think because Jesus was onthe boat, in the bottom of the
boat with us during the message.
Jesus gave a home meter, madeamazing grace, famous and rhoded
.
That drifted up from the songsand moans of our people.
(22:27):
Everything good, every possiblegood gift that came from
anything any white person did inthe church in the United States
came from a person of color,and that is simply the core
truth that is able to show usthat our ancestral practices
connect us to our common creatorand they don't disconnect us
(22:54):
from any story we could callwrong, except that they
disconnect us from carceralChristianity, from Confederate
Christianity and from capitalistChristianity.
And since those are the onlythree things that are taught in
whiteness loving churches, oncewhite folks or even black people
who grew up right in thesewhiteness loving churches, once
(23:16):
they disconnect from carceral,confederate or capitalist
Christianity, they aredisconnecting from the only
thing they have known aboutChristianity itself.
And we're not.
We've always known more.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
So I always say by now, people who are listening
know that when something hits me, I just let it hang for a
minute before I move, because Ijust wanna acknowledge and say I
say when I feel wisdom.
So thank you for that.
I'm trying to navigate, wantingto ask you my questions for my
(23:58):
own sanity, but I want to askyou we have listeners, because
the listeners I think are folkswho are.
I think we have a couple ofpeople we have.
We obviously have trolls, butwe have folks who are deciding
enough is enough.
Like I've been in this too longand I like how you mentioned
before of being a.
(24:19):
I think you said a crosscultural when you talked to
speaking to two audiences.
How did you frame that?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, like being bilingual.
Yeah, absolutely bilingual.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yes, I feel that I feel some bit of that in my own
work, and so when I hear, whenI'm having conversations like
this, I'm trying to model whatit means to receive wisdom
instead of extorting right orlike having a quick sound bite.
I'm wondering now about what todo about Christianity.
(24:52):
So I'm just asking my questionsbecause, even though the season
is about queerness, I'm queer,so it counts Always.
How do we even I've been goingaround saying I'm wearing a
light jacket called Christianitythere are people who are like I
(25:13):
want nothing to do with it.
There are other people who arelike no, we need to reclaim it,
and stuff like that.
And I think about what I'mwrestling with is I don't know
if the Christianity I was givencan be redeemed, like you're
saying.
I don't know if being called aChristian is counterintuitive or
not, because it just doesn'tlook anything like Jesus.
(25:36):
Nothing that I was given in thename of Christianity looks like
Jesus reminds me of Jesus andJesus wasn't Christian.
But at the same time thinkingIs there benefit in some
adjacency there?
How are you navigating that?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
I think this is an excellent question and so
crucial for someone in thepastorate.
I'm a solo pastor.
I have a very strong network ofleaders that I connect with,
people that I trust and mentorby, and I have wonderful leaders
in the local church, but manyof the people that we love and
(26:15):
people that are members, they'rewrestling with this.
I obviously could call thispart of the progressive
Christian movement, so thewrestling is out loud and the
wrestling is across the diningroom table.
I have always clung to thegospel of Jesus.
I hold a view of necessaryatonement.
(26:36):
It may not be substitutionary,but I am viewed as very
conservative in my atonementtheology and I'm fine with that.
I believe atonement wasnecessary.
However, I really appreciatethe struggles and the wrestling
and the questions that drive usto a core of the theology of
(27:01):
humility and that is generallymy answer when I'm in
discussions like this to say themajor thing that you are
dismantling has to be arrogance,has to be pride, has to be
worship of a fragile God.
The Reverend Tracy Blackman isa beloved mentor of mine and she
(27:23):
has said multiple times why dowe think God is so fragile that
they have to be named aparticular name, that they have
to be identified by a particularrelationship with a country, by
a particular relationship witha particular religion?
(27:43):
Jesus is all the world to me,but Jesus may not be all the
world to other folks.
And that does not mean that Idon't worship a Jesus to whom
everyone means all the world,and that's more important than
me claiming, proclaiming andeven making sure I am aligned
(28:08):
with those who agree with me andnot aligned with those who
disagree.
I would say working in themovement has maybe been a bit
more impactful for ministry thanseminary was Don't tell anybody
.
But working in the movement hasmade ministry more meaningful
(28:29):
versus a lot of the theologicalwork and things that I presumed
I was being prepared for,because what I really needed to
be prepared for, what everyministry leader needs to be
prepared for, is to answer thequestions of those who are
doubting without saying well,the first thing you need to deal
with is your doubt, because,from where I say, the first
(28:53):
thing that we all need to dealwith is our arrogance.
How is the dismantling and thedeconstructing humbling you and
what scriptures are youwrestling with that you say
ain't no way.
I think that God is it this way?
You're striking people downlike that man.
What and how do we feelemboldened to question, and
(29:20):
where are the spaces that willnot shame us because we can't
sing the same thing or we don'twant to jump and run around and
we don't shout no more.
And these are the places whereI think even our black beloved
our family.
We say, well, we're not in thespirit anymore and people just
aren't saved and we're notseeking righteousness.
(29:43):
But if we're seeking humilityand harm reduction and a
re-centering, a re-grounding inlove, is that not righteous?
Or are we really dismantlingall of the things, all of the
boxes that we were called totake off?
We were told?
(30:03):
This is righteousness, becausethe first thing that I believe
is happening, maybe in your lifeand perhaps in the lives of
many others, is that not onlyare you saying I cannot be part
of a culture that says you maynot live as God made you,
because God made you queer.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
The.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Lord willed that you would be beautifully, fearfully
and wonderfully made as a queerperson, and if you're in a
culture that says you can't dothat, you can't live this way,
then you have every right toquestion the spirituality of a
culture that tells you whatrighteousness is and doesn't
(30:42):
invite you to get in touch withand crawl up into the bosom of
the God who is righteousness.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Oh, ok, I am wondering about this
multilingual thing and I havecome into contact with lots of
progressives that it does seemlike none of that stuff.
They took all of the whitenesswith them and just left the
(31:14):
doctrines.
And I think for me thatarrogance piece, that piece of
coming out swinging, has been alittle bit bothersome and I
haven't known how to name that.
And in these spaces, because ofthe book, getting into some of
these white spaces, progressivespaces, and really feeling
(31:35):
inspired by you, really feelingthe challenge to call out
whiteness, like ha ha, kiki, yes, we're all gay, but whiteness
has to go, and I think a lot ofit.
You know, as I'm conversatingwith these folks, it's like, you
know, I do think it is a senseof like who will I be?
Because, right, whiteness isn'trooted, it's not rooted in
(31:57):
anything.
So what would be your word to awhite person who's like Okay, I
want to divest, I don't knowwhere to go from here?
Like, what do I do when I knowwhiteness is bad?
And here I am?
My whole family I mean thepeople I've been talking to has
given me a lot of compassion, Imean homeschool families and you
know, it goes off like a bombin the family, like.
(32:19):
So there are costs, I think, topeople divesting, white people
divesting, or people who havebeen raised white divesting of
that whiteness.
What would be a word for themif they're listening.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, I always, always lean more towards
congratulations versus gratitude, and that may be just my
radicalism, but I'm not going totell no white person who
decided to be anti racist.
(32:56):
Oh, thank you, because we'regonna get free whether or not
you convert to the truth.
But what I can do iscongratulate you Honestly, to
sincerely say congratulations,you have.
You have moved out of thematrix and, yeah, life is harder
(33:18):
out here and maybe I, maybe thematrix is the reference is too
old now because I don't know howmany people even seen the first
one, the first movie.
But congratulations is due.
And this, this reconstruction ofknowing your worth without
(33:39):
having to prove to anyone thatyou can carry the weight of the
world, is probably one of theirbiggest conversion experiences
that there is.
You know, white folkunfortunately have the burden of
acting like I'm subhuman.
I'm so humble, but really whatthey're doing is proving that
they're superhuman, and this isthe same cycle that they put
(34:02):
black folk through.
We are either subhuman orsuperhuman, and if, if, we do
not need white people, thatmakes us the greatest enemy.
And so I think that to offercongratulations to our white
cousins and friends and newcommunity members is more than
(34:23):
an order what they've lost andwhat they might suffer is.
It is, in many ways, going toteach them and those wounds are
precious to God, but their placein movement, their place in
moving towards that ultimateanti racism journey, which is to
(34:45):
finally realize that it iswhiteness itself you may be
fighting against, is to reallylean into what they feel their
spiritual practice ought to be.
Have you rejected Jesus becauseyou're mad at your Sunday
School teacher?
Are you abolishing differentparts of relationships that are
(35:07):
actually helpful for you justbecause you mad?
And to ask the question is yourqueerness, your identity or
your weapon, just to put yourfamily off the Thanksgiving?
Because that's not life, that'snot love?
Now, if you, if you're livingand your family's mad, that's
(35:28):
one thing, but I'm going to tellyou right now that who we are
is not your little triviaquestion.
So just tell someone how dumbthey are.
Don't use all the struggle I'vebeen through to make you feel
better about telling a bigotabout themselves.
(35:48):
Use your own testimony.
Dare to speak about your ownchange, because that is what's
required of you.
And it makes me.
You know many more than justwhite folk are going through
that.
They want to feel validated,they want to feel appreciated,
but congratulations has to bethe thing that they appreciate
(36:12):
most, because we don't.
We don't have time to offerthem gratitude, and the truth is
that God is proud of them andthat has never satisfied any
white Christian that I know.
For some odd reason, they can'tbe satisfied by God being proud
of them because it's nottangible, it's not in their
(36:35):
faces and it doesn't make themany money.
Who want to be anti racist?
I would dare them to.
To become anti capitalist?
I would dare them to see theabolitionist God.
And then then you're startingto move towards what black
people have done that wouldstill that still live under
capitalism.
They still can't be totallycapitalist because capitalism
(36:58):
hates us.
But, in short, I would ask ourcommunity members who are white
to find the testimonies and thestruggles and the advisement
from people that are also white.
I would ask them to Google itand not bother like you or me,
(37:22):
and I would ask them how theyare coming humbly, to sit and to
learn, and how they are lookingat the generation coming behind
them, not raise anothergeneration of oops.
I didn't know I was racist.
How are they raising ageneration that it looks very
different from oops?
Is that bigoted?
How are they refusing to leavetheir family behind?
(37:48):
Build your boundaries as youhave to, but what is your role
in being an ally and how are yougathering your people in the
same way that Jesus gathered hispeople?
The examples are all there andI don't I really don't think
(38:09):
that you have to expect blackpeople to do all the work, even
in advisement.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Indeed.
Oh, my goodness, kind of.
You're already kind of headingtowards the final question, so
I'm gonna, I'm gonna see if Ican't ask you these kind of
consecutively person who is aperson of color, a queer person
of color who, for me, duringthat, that time that I was
(38:37):
hearing you, had no idea that itwas okay to be queer and love
God and be loved by God.
I had no idea.
I did know I was very pissedoff about whiteness and about
black lives and I knew thatthere was something in me that
needed to be said.
I felt something in me thatthat needed to come out, to come
(38:58):
forth.
So for for folks who arelistening, who are in their late
20s, early 30s, who feel likethere's something in them, you
were very much for me a personthat goes that I saw I was like
that's what I want to do, that'swhat I want to be Truthful,
honest, no matter what.
What would you say to a personwho feels like, yeah, there's
(39:20):
something stirring in me as well.
I don't know how to identify it.
I haven't maybe tapped into ityet, but what would your word be
to people of color, youngleaders of color, who are
navigating all of this?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah, oh, my city is very loud today.
I'm sorry it's a hoot.
Listen, the sirens are goingoff and somebody's soul, right.
You know you got to turneverything into a sermon.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Thank you for the lights going off.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
That's right Now listen if your alarm bells are
also ringing.
They say.
They tell me trust your gut,and I think it is OK to freely
go and question and to learn theway the same thing that you did
.
Our siblings need to do thattoo.
(40:11):
They need to reach out tosomeone.
Is there someone that you'relooking at that you trust?
Is there someone that you thinkwho?
I want to at least try this andtalk to them.
Whether or not that persongives you good advice, you will
feel something, you will be ledto something, because if the
spirit is speaking to you, thespirit can use even the worst,
(40:35):
most dastardly person in yourlife to say here's what you run
from.
And the spirit can also use awonderful pastoral presence in
your life to say here's what yourun to.
So I would encourage oursiblings don't do this alone.
You have probably been thinkingand meddling and wrestling and
(40:56):
really just sitting in this fora long time by yourself longer
than you think and one of thethings that I believe God
themselves does is everythingcoordinated together.
I believe God is three people,and so why in the world would
God want you to go through thiskind of journey alone If there
(41:17):
are organizations around youthat really spearhead the work
of queer liberation, especiallyas it pertains to people of
color, black people especiallythen those are the spaces you
want to go to in terms of reallyseeking out and living in your
identity.
If you're having any doubtissues spiritually, sit in that
(41:40):
doubt, ask those questions andhear me when I say that God is
joining you in your doubt.
God is with you in that doubtand God will not forsake you,
even if you decide that youcan't hang out with God right
now.
God is never going to leave youand you can receive that from
(42:03):
an ordained preacher who hadlost people because they decided
they can't hang out with God.
But a good church, a goodpastor, a good friend, a good
family member will only love youmore for being honest with them
, and that is what God will do.
They will only love you morefor being honest about what God
(42:24):
already knew about.
Now, if you are going throughdoubt and you feel you're going
to come out in need of a space,that's where things can get
tricky, because any church yougo to may have a bigoted
undertone that turns into anovertone Then you may be the
lesson that a particular churchor ministry space goes through
(42:44):
to decide oh, we are going toput out a statement whether a
sister, beloved, so-and-so washere and we didn't think we
needed a statement on queernessbefore, but now they showed up.
Prepare your heart for troubleand find a space.
Like I recommended Pride andthe Pews already, I recommend
that people reach out to medirectly.
(43:05):
You never know who folks mightknow, in whatever state,
whatever city, and I truly wantto encourage our siblings that,
while they must not go throughthis alone, they absolutely have
to realize that this path willbe lonely.
This is why we still havehangouts, conferences, chat
(43:26):
rooms and you know chats,because if you are also called
to leadership on the other sideof this, then it will be you
that is preparing theirtestimony.
I like in my call to the callof Ezekiel, where the Lord told
the prophet now I'm going totake you out of the church and
I'm going to put you out amongthe people and I'm going to give
(43:49):
you a message that is the truth, and you will speak the truth
and people will hate you.
But if you concentrate on thehatred of the people who hate
the truth, and if that hatredcauses you to stop speaking,
then when I show up and I tearthese folks up, that blood will
(44:13):
be on your hands, because youknew the truth but you were so
terrified of being hated.
Anyone that knows and feels thetruth has to still speak it,
because the only person, theonly person that you owe any
explanation to, is the God thatput the truth within you.
(44:36):
It's okay to be afraid, but itis not okay to be empowered or
disempowered by people's hateand fear.
Lean into the stories of PaulyBaird.
Lean into the story of JimmyJames.
Baldwin hated the church, buteverything could be a churchy.
(44:59):
I mean the cross of Christ,redemption fire next to come on.
Everything he did was churchy.
Lean on in and in the words ofour brother James Baldwin.
Please remember, pleaseremember the words that Baldwin
actually got from the ApostlePaul with his misogynist behind.
The crown is bought and paidfor.
(45:21):
Your name tag says Saint andnot sinner.
Your crown is bought and paidfor.
Reach up, reach up, reachthrough all of the mess, pull it
down on your head, grow into itand wear it.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
I'm just gonna end it there.
There's nothing else I can't.
Would you, Santurin or Danepastor, would you give us a
benediction?
Speaker 2 (45:49):
for this episode.
Yes, yes, oh, wow, well belovedour our good anthropologist
sister, zora Neale Hurston, whoreally wanted nothing to do with
God, religion or people whoneeded religion to survive.
Right, she still gave us wisdomand she said there are so many
(46:14):
years that ask questions andyears that bring answers.
And she also encouraged us tobring a, a very carefully placed
tool, with us everywhere we go.
And I want us to look ahead.
I want us to look ahead to thefuture, where all of our weapons
(46:36):
will be turned in to tools ofbuilding.
Everything that you have had touse to defend yourself, to
defend people you love, everyweapon you have had to use to
bust through the mess, the muckand the mire, every weapon that
you're now arming yourself with,as you are discovering, you
(46:58):
didn't know you were in a closet, you didn't know you were in a
cave, but now you're walkingtowards a particular kind of
light.
Everything that you fear andknow you will have to fight with
, those are the same things thatGod is going to turn into tools
that will build the house thatyour designs, your blueprints.
(47:23):
God is planting them in you andsoon, and very soon, you will
become a builder, just like theCreator, and so my blessing for
us is this that you would berooted in the God who was far
ahead of you, that you rememberthat faith, hope and love are
(47:46):
the great seeds that God plantswithin us.
Someday, soon, faith willbecome sight, your hopes will be
fulfilled and you won't needfaith and hope anymore.
But love, love will neverchange the future.
Perfection, renewal, theeschatological gift that is
(48:10):
ahead of us All of you have anexperience right now is the same
love that came from yourancestors, who loved you before
they knew you, and it flowsthrough your descendants, who
you love without knowing them.
So the future is in your heartright now, because you possess
(48:32):
the very love that is a weaponto protect yourself and those
that you love, and it is alsothe tool that will build the
house where you can finallyfinally study war no more.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Thank you, sis.
I am so appreciative of you.
It's been amazing to have aconversation with someone I
consider a hero, a person of.
I'm reading books right now.
I'm reading a book called Loveand Rage and it talks about
acknowledging lineage and peoplewho are ancestors, who speak
wisdom and truth to you, thattheir words are like a text, a
(49:12):
wisdom text, and I just have tosay it to your face that you
have been for me, a forerunnerin the pursuit of freedom.
I feel like, even just watchingyou in the way that you glow,
which I know that you deal withprofound.
It is very costly to do whatyou do, but I just need you to
(49:36):
know that it has been so lifegiving for so many of us and I'm
grateful to you.
I look up to you, I admire you,and thanks for being on the
show.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
I'm so glad, I'm so, so grateful, truly, truly.
And you know I tell you everytime we know quick text.
I'm praying for you.
You are in my heart and I amvery, very proud of the path
that you were forging and thepath that you've been very proud
.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Thank you so much I'm going to pause this or end this
.
What's up everybody.
Welcome back to this episode ofLife.
After Levin, I'm your host tome, spencer Helms, and my guest
today needs no introduction, butfor those of y'all who are
sleep, I want you to meetMichelle Higgins.
I'm going to have Michelleintroduce herself and tell us a
little about who she is and whatshe does and where you live.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, hey everybody.
Oh, I'm so grateful to be here.
My name is Michelle I use herpronouns.
I'm the senior pastor at StJohn's Church, the beloved
community on the north side ofSt Louis City, and I'm very
proud of that, in no small partbecause St John's is the place
(00:40):
where Action St Louis was born.
Action St Louis is the largestblack radical political power
home in the state of Missouri,and being co-founder there is a
real source of pride and joy forme.
I'm also a co-founder of Faithfor Justice, which is a
Christian advocacy organizationthat travels around and does a
(01:01):
lot of work in the state andalso nationally, and probably
most folks will remember or knowme from having spoken at Urbana
in 2015.
And it's not something I everwant or need to live down, but I
really appreciate all of theopportunities that have come
(01:22):
from that.
Some podcast history, a formerco-host of Truth's Table but now
living squarely in the midst ofworking with the movement for
Black Lives, mostly in electoraljustice, but generally working
through those interfaithdimensions at the intersections
of faith and black radicalismand how do we really see power
(01:46):
for people without apology,without shame and with a lot of
joy.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So let me just jump in because I have to lay some
groundwork here.
I'm a little I'm fangirlingagain this week, but there's a
little bit of a backstory in acontext to why I wanted to have
you on the show.
Because you were veryinstrumental in the very
beginning of my process ofcoming out as queer and coming
out to well being outed andowning that basically.
But what.
(02:15):
I wanted to talk to you aboutwas so in the book I wrote.
So the podcast is named aftermy book, faith Unleavened, and
in the book I talk about whenyou spoke I don't name you, but
for those who have the book,this is the person who was
speaking on the stage and I tellthe story about how I was in
the.
I was actually in theintercession space at Urbana and
(02:38):
got hit with travail likereally hard and, needless to say
, it was right at the momentwhere you called out white
supremacy and I got hit withtravail because I felt like the
organization itself was notgoing to respond the way a lot
of the black staff would havehoped they would have responded.
And so you know it ends uphappening and we're getting text
(03:00):
messages.
You know pray, we're losingdonors.
You know they lost milliondollar donors and all that kind
of stuff, which was the firsttime I realized, oh, this
whiteness is up and througheverything.
So it was very for it to be inFerguson or for it to be in St
Louis and for us to not so faraway from Ferguson, right about
(03:20):
a year after Mike Brown, for theorganization to respond that
way was really shocking for alot of us and for me.
I think that that marked thebeginning of an end for me in
terms of the trust I had in theleaven that exists in some
organizations.
And so fast forward.
I knew who you were, I followedyou to truth table and then, in
(03:43):
adversity, released their paperon humans, on sexuality.
And that was the last kind ofstraw for me, because it felt to
me like a very much aconcession that, because they
had gotten in trouble fortalking about whiteness, the
concession was we'll come outagainst the gaze.
You know a little bit of areciprocity there.
(04:05):
And so I wanted to talk through.
Talk through some of thosethings.
What was going on for you atthe Urbana conference?
Was it something that God kindof dropped on you, or had you
planned to speak that way?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I knew from being asked.
First of all, I think it's nota secret amongst planners, folks
who have been with adversity,it's not a secret that I was
sort of their d list ask,because it's just really hard to
say yes to something like thatand also a number of our really
(04:41):
esteemed group that we callfurkets and clergy.
A number of them were, like youknow, in.
Adversity has never been aspace where blackness connects
with power in a way that'sspoken of.
You know they were still heardabout Tom Skinner and that makes
sense to me.
Right, he was the Paul Robisonof Urbana conference, you know,
(05:05):
just driven to places where itreally was the example of we
really kill and cannibalizearound our own and that history
had not left our people.
And a number of our burkets andclergy are in the denomination
that I now serve, the UnitedChurch of Christ.
And they weren't going to touchon adversity, not within all.
(05:26):
The black people in them saidno, okay.
I was working with anevangelical church and
organization at the time and Ifelt particularly called to be
culturally bilingual.
And I also felt the power ofbringing a scalpel to some,
assas to others, and I felt veryproud that I had the
(05:49):
opportunity to to be more of anobody, which is the preference
of Ella Baker, who I organizeafter she's the ancestral name
that that I call in myorganizing work, fannie Lou
Hamer, who was first andforemost a worshiper, first and
foremost a prayer warrior, andpeople that I have no, no
(06:12):
problem calling their names andremembering their work, because
it is their work, it is theirdedication that meant more to
them and also their willingnessto say hard things.
Right.
Ella Baker said hard things toDr King, fannie Lou Hamer said
hard things to the president atthe time and I felt called to do
(06:35):
that and I knew I was beingasked to speak because I had
done work with organizationsthat were born out of the fires
of Ferguson, so I knew it wasgoing to be about white
supremacy.
I knew it was.
I was being asked to to kind ofhelp make things feel better
for black staff, and I wantedthe black staff to know I wasn't
(06:56):
going to come in and make theorganization leads feel better.
I wanted to come and to comfortand to minister to them, to the
black folks in the crowd, justlike the Bible is saying always
about y'all, but truth is forall, and I think that's that's
(07:17):
part of my task.
So yeah, the original speechwas much harsher.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Edited back a couple times.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Oh, my goodness, so.
So I know in situations likethat, they they typically will
have you submit your your sermonahead of time and they'll edit
it and things like that.
But I just have to tell youthat, like you stand as a hero
for me, I think that I didn'texpect to get emotional, but I
think what I saw because I wentback and watch it.
(07:46):
Obviously I was in the prayerroom during the talk.
I went back and watched it andthought I want to be like that,
like I want to be able to be soGrounded in who I am, in the
legacy I come from, a propheticlegacy that I come from, with my
ancestors Standing in God,standing in Jesus and going.
(08:07):
I will not bend to Empire.
I will say what needs to besaid and I just felt like I
watched you do it.
You were glowing, it was justsuch a.
The moment is hard to explainbecause I saw two things at work
.
I saw a witness and I sawEmpire even in the thing that I
was kind of involved in.
(08:27):
And so when they go and Say,you know, if you're affirming,
you have to leave staff, therewas this, this real Um
experience for me, a fear aroundprovision, and so you know you
have to sign this thing and say,you know I'm going to like be
non affirming and call this sinand all of those things.
And then turns out I'm gay, soI get, I was married.
(08:51):
Oddly enough, I met the guy Imarried at that Urbana
conference and by the time, bythe time I came out, I was
divorced.
And so I was thinking throughthe realities that happened,
where the, the agenda that theysay is out here, in the way that
they kind of posited themselvesas Folks who are on the
(09:16):
defensive.
I'm realizing that a lot ofthese orgs, that whiteness
itself is always on theoffensive and that the agenda
that exists Doesn't belong tothe queer community.
They just want to live and letlive.
And so I reached out to youright after that and I said, hey
, I'm struggling.
You said, sis, I am absolutelyaffirming, you are made in the
(09:41):
image of God.
And it was like because of Ihad, because of what I saw when
you spoke, and wanting to kindof be that type of a person that
, no matter what, speaks truth.
If you to say that over me saysit was a, it was a very
galvanizing moment for mepersonally and and it really
(10:02):
kind of Removes any types ofquestions.
It's almost like a one-and-donelike okay, I'm not having
conversations with anybody elseabout whether or not I can be
queer and Christian.
Yeah, I wouldn't say now, nowwe're having conversations about
Christianity with.
That's another podcast, right.
So I want to talk a little bitabout how.
Where did that come from?
Was that a tradition that yougrew up in?
(10:24):
Was it always affirming, or wasit a decision you made?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, interestingly, I grew up in the church of God
and Christ and we have a songthat unchanged it now, girl, but
the song used to be you can'tjoin it, you have to be born in
it, coach.
It was just very locked downbut it was a don't ask, don't
tell culture.
And I, I'm a worship leader,been a worship leader almost all
(10:51):
my life and I learned how toharmonize.
I learned every Gospel lick andad lib and roll and trill that
I know from queer people, myplay uncles, my play aunties and
people who were Genderexpansive before gender
expansive was really a phrase inthe 80s.
I Know and love Gospel music,even the music that is sung by
(11:18):
bigots.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Still know and love it because of queer people.
And During the AIDS epidemic inthe 1980s, I would tell my mom
and dad, who were both Kojicpreachers, I would say we got to
go to the hospital and sit withUncle Jerry and sit with you
Know so and so and folks thatwere perishing, who were dying
(11:41):
of AIDS, and the church wasnowhere to be found and I'll
never forget it.
But I was six years old, maybeseven, when we lost people who
were very precious to me, peoplewho we knew were queer and
people who had chosen to sign onthe dotted line, much in the
ways that you're sayingUniversity was making folks to
(12:01):
do.
And yet they, they loved whothey loved, they lived how they
lived.
Our brother Bayard Rustin, oursibling Polly Murray, they, they
mean everything to me because Iwatched their direct
descendants go through,descendants in the faith, go
through things and sing Zionsongs, presence of people who
(12:25):
claim to be friends and can andactually were opposition and
maybe even enemies, folks thatdid not care that they were
perishing.
So I've been radical about theintersections of blackness and
queerness since I was sevenyears old and I watched last
breath and I tended to lesionsand I Stayed up weeping and
(12:46):
crying all night in ways thatnobody cared the pastors.
It was shocking to me that achurch born out of Black
struggle, born out of black joy,born out of hush harbor
experiences, didn't care about awhole group of people within.
And I you know I sit here andI'm a stop after this, but you
(13:10):
know my preacher so I Know I'mon with it I think about Jesus
opening the scroll at hishometown church and Saying today
, right here, this message toyou, this prophecy is being
fulfilled.
We're people in black churchesand I have to shout out my
brothers, don and Calvin, atPride in the pews, who are
(13:32):
working to see the eight allblack, historic black
denominations come to bear withthe fact that there are already
queer people in yourdenominations.
Why do you stop them out loud?
So, yeah, I highly recommendPride in the pews for anybody
that's listening and wonderingwhat do I do next?
But I was a little girl Thinkingabout Jesus opening the scroll
(13:54):
at his hometown church andspeaking a word about the
captive, about the oppressed, toa people who were oppressed,
and they got that.
If that ain't blackness andqueerness, I don't know what is
wow.
And queer people are leadingworship and they're singing and
they're writing songs the songtitles I could give you that I
know gay people wrote.
(14:15):
You wouldn't believe.
And yet when queer people speakthe gospel and live the gospel,
it's rejected, almost as if thesame folks at Jesus hometown
that wanted to stone him anddrove him to a cliff.
I have been radicalized Sectionfrom my whole.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
You.
Just I'm blown away with thisidea that that, the idea that
blackness and queerness is likeJesus telling in a press group
of people and the Responses tothat.
I just watched Truth be told.
It was a documentary and itjust came out about queerness in
the church and Edie Smith itwas on there, I think in Georgia
(15:04):
, and he said something to thefact of.
I mean, it was just so preciousthe way he talked about his own
journey, which was I had aminister, a deacon, in my church
who had been there years andyears and years.
His son came to drop somethingoff and he says I never met this
son and the deacon says well,it's cuz he's gay.
So you know, I just didn't tellanybody about him and that was
(15:26):
the moment he was like, wait aminute, what?
Like you, you don't have arelationship with your own son
because of Queerness, and sothat was his journey.
And I think for a lot of people,what we're seeing right now is
lived Experience, is shiftingpeople's theology, because the
people that you're saying aredrinking poison and all of those
things.
They're not.
(15:47):
They're not dying for manypoison, they're happy and
they're thriving and they'rethriving in a faith walk like
they're thriving in the midst ofDiscipleship, whereas there are
some folks and I want aquestion about this because I'm
finding that a lot of whitefolks when they go on this
deconstruction journey that thatkind of adds in the queerness
(16:08):
aspect, the trajectory istypically away from faith.
Um, but for me I'm stillwrestling with whether or not
Christianity is the right kindof title for me, but I do.
I can't imagine giving up Jesusand I'm trying to figure out
(16:29):
whether that you think that thatcomes from maybe our history,
or like, where does that comefrom, this idea that black folks
are really tethered to thespiritual?
I mean, the more I've come intoqueerness, the more I've come
into ancestry, the more I'vecome into all kinds of
indigenous practice that havemade me feel so much more
connected to Jesus than I everthought.
(16:49):
I mean, the white church didnot give that to me.
The way that I am encounteringthe Lord right now with these
practices where I invite myancestors and I, you know, we
light incense and we sage and wedo all of the things and we do
it in the name of Jesus, and youknow, and we do these
experiences, we come and we goin the name of Jesus.
(17:11):
What's the missing piece do youthink for folks who are white
and progressive, who typicallytend away from faith?
Do you have a thought aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, the interesting thing about any discussion on
whiteness is going to be I ambiased concerning the
definitions of whiteness andblackness.
Obviously, I'm more of a baldwinnie in, as they say.
Then I believe that whitenesshad to force itself to exist and
because people descended fromEurope refused to be the global
(17:48):
minority, and it is simply factsthat culturally they are.
Blackness made itself out ofstruggle and power and
realization that we have alwaysbeen united.
But whiteness is forced.
We wouldn't have Italiansversus Irish people and then,
all of a sudden, they're allwhite and united, and
(18:12):
spiritually I believe thatwhiteness is obsolete and it is
one of the things that in theeschatological future right,
they're already not.
Yet.
White folks are experiencingtensions because they live in
the midst of something that Godis, in the great renewal, going
to cast out, and all of a sudden, all of the blandness and shame
(18:37):
and confusion and terribletruths of the past and history
of whiteness, they'll be able tocome face to face with them and
be proud that they are nolonger clinging to an identity
that was made from massacre, andso that's the problem there.
Anytime a church loveswhiteness, they're Ichabod, as
(19:01):
the Old Testament says.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Glory to the heart.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, ain't no glory in nothing.
There's no glory in nothing.
I don't care if you mainlineprogressive as anything and have
Pride month, rainbow facepainting in your Sunday school
class, I don't care.
Whiteness will destroy you.
Because whiteness is theeasiest way for that old devil
(19:26):
who looks a lot like aconservative voter dressing up,
coming in the church Because youlook docile and you know, I
think through a lot of thethings that Carol and Bryant,
who was the reason that, emmettTill, all that happened.
And then Sarah I can't rememberthe white girl's name that was
the main complainant before themassacre in Oklahoma, greenwood
(19:52):
kind of started off, kicked off,yes, years of tension, but it
really kicked off because awhite lady got in an elevator
with a black man.
And what does it look like whenthose white folk go to church?
Who were the white folksscreaming at the little rock?
Nine, who were desegregatingschools?
They're grandparents, they'regreat grandparents.
(20:14):
What are they teaching?
And the thing that they don'twant to let go of, the thing
that they feel can be redeemed,is actually something that God
is calling a source of harm.
It's obsolete.
So that may be the biggestissue with as white folks
deconstruct, they think of theirmemories in church growing up
(20:35):
and there is nothing redeemableabout them.
They are not wrong.
They're not wrong.
The great departure, the great,you know, move, leaving out
loud.
What is it?
Just getting rid of church andgetting rid of Christianity and
calling the gospel detrimentalto their spiritual health.
They're not wrong because theirchurches probably taught more
(20:56):
whiteness than the witness ofChrist, and so one of the
reasons that your experience isdifferent is maybe similar to
mine, where I saw my queersiblings and queer elders love
the truth, love the story ofJesus, a man who did not have to
bind himself to a woman inorder to call himself worthy.
(21:20):
Look at the original pastor,the original prophet, not
needing a pastor's wife.
Look at the original prophetspending time with women,
letting women wash his feet and,you know, not getting in
trouble with them.
Not a person in ministry withouta scandal.
We've never heard of that, butJesus did it.
And Jesus did it withoutexalting marriage, without
(21:45):
exalting heteronormativity and,for goodness sake, how he didn't
exalt capitalism.
It's confusing If you're anAmerican Christian, how is that
possible?
But we saw it because blacknesscame to Christ.
In a way that kind of provesthat we might have brought it
(22:05):
with us a little bit.
Why do those rituals bring youcloser to Jesus?
I think because Jesus was onthe boat, in the bottom of the
boat with us during the message.
Jesus gave a home meter, madeamazing grace, famous and rhoded
.
That drifted up from the songsand moans of our people.
(22:27):
Everything good, every possiblegood gift that came from
anything any white person did inthe church in the United States
came from a person of color,and that is simply the core
truth that is able to show usthat our ancestral practices
connect us to our common creatorand they don't disconnect us
(22:54):
from any story we could callwrong, except that they
disconnect us from carceralChristianity, from Confederate
Christianity and from capitalistChristianity.
And since those are the onlythree things that are taught in
whiteness loving churches, oncewhite folks or even black people
who grew up right in thesewhiteness loving churches, once
(23:16):
they disconnect from carceral,confederate or capitalist
Christianity, they aredisconnecting from the only
thing they have known aboutChristianity itself.
And we're not.
We've always known more.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
So I always say by now, people who are listening
know that when something hits me, I just let it hang for a
minute before I move, because Ijust wanna acknowledge and say I
say when I feel wisdom.
So thank you for that.
I'm trying to navigate, wantingto ask you my questions for my
(23:58):
own sanity, but I want to askyou we have listeners, because
the listeners I think are folkswho are.
I think we have a couple ofpeople we have.
We obviously have trolls, butwe have folks who are deciding
enough is enough.
Like I've been in this too longand I like how you mentioned
before of being a.
(24:19):
I think you said a crosscultural when you talked to
speaking to two audiences.
How did you frame that?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, like being bilingual.
Yeah, absolutely bilingual.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yes, I feel that I feel some bit of that in my own
work, and so when I hear, whenI'm having conversations like
this, I'm trying to model whatit means to receive wisdom
instead of extorting right orlike having a quick sound bite.
I'm wondering now about what todo about Christianity.
(24:52):
So I'm just asking my questionsbecause, even though the season
is about queerness, I'm queer,so it counts Always.
How do we even I've been goingaround saying I'm wearing a
light jacket called Christianitythere are people who are like I
(25:13):
want nothing to do with it.
There are other people who arelike no, we need to reclaim it,
and stuff like that.
And I think about what I'mwrestling with is I don't know
if the Christianity I was givencan be redeemed, like you're
saying.
I don't know if being called aChristian is counterintuitive or
not, because it just doesn'tlook anything like Jesus.
(25:36):
Nothing that I was given in thename of Christianity looks like
Jesus reminds me of Jesus andJesus wasn't Christian.
But at the same time thinkingIs there benefit in some
adjacency there?
How are you navigating that?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
I think this is an excellent question and so
crucial for someone in thepastorate.
I'm a solo pastor.
I have a very strong network ofleaders that I connect with,
people that I trust and mentorby, and I have wonderful leaders
in the local church, but manyof the people that we love and
(26:15):
people that are members, they'rewrestling with this.
I obviously could call thispart of the progressive
Christian movement, so thewrestling is out loud and the
wrestling is across the diningroom table.
I have always clung to thegospel of Jesus.
I hold a view of necessaryatonement.
(26:36):
It may not be substitutionary,but I am viewed as very
conservative in my atonementtheology and I'm fine with that.
I believe atonement wasnecessary.
However, I really appreciatethe struggles and the wrestling
and the questions that drive usto a core of the theology of
(27:01):
humility and that is generallymy answer when I'm in
discussions like this to say themajor thing that you are
dismantling has to be arrogance,has to be pride, has to be
worship of a fragile God.
The Reverend Tracy Blackman isa beloved mentor of mine and she
(27:23):
has said multiple times why dowe think God is so fragile that
they have to be named aparticular name, that they have
to be identified by a particularrelationship with a country, by
a particular relationship witha particular religion?
(27:43):
Jesus is all the world to me,but Jesus may not be all the
world to other folks.
And that does not mean that Idon't worship a Jesus to whom
everyone means all the world,and that's more important than
me claiming, proclaiming andeven making sure I am aligned
(28:08):
with those who agree with me andnot aligned with those who
disagree.
I would say working in themovement has maybe been a bit
more impactful for ministry thanseminary was Don't tell anybody
.
But working in the movement hasmade ministry more meaningful
(28:29):
versus a lot of the theologicalwork and things that I presumed
I was being prepared for,because what I really needed to
be prepared for, what everyministry leader needs to be
prepared for, is to answer thequestions of those who are
doubting without saying well,the first thing you need to deal
with is your doubt, because,from where I say, the first
(28:53):
thing that we all need to dealwith is our arrogance.
How is the dismantling and thedeconstructing humbling you and
what scriptures are youwrestling with that you say
ain't no way.
I think that God is it this way?
You're striking people downlike that man.
What and how do we feelemboldened to question, and
(29:20):
where are the spaces that willnot shame us because we can't
sing the same thing or we don'twant to jump and run around and
we don't shout no more.
And these are the places whereI think even our black beloved
our family.
We say, well, we're not in thespirit anymore and people just
aren't saved and we're notseeking righteousness.
(29:43):
But if we're seeking humilityand harm reduction and a
re-centering, a re-grounding inlove, is that not righteous?
Or are we really dismantlingall of the things, all of the
boxes that we were called totake off?
We were told?
(30:03):
This is righteousness, becausethe first thing that I believe
is happening, maybe in your lifeand perhaps in the lives of
many others, is that not onlyare you saying I cannot be part
of a culture that says you maynot live as God made you,
because God made you queer.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
The.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Lord willed that you would be beautifully, fearfully
and wonderfully made as a queerperson, and if you're in a
culture that says you can't dothat, you can't live this way,
then you have every right toquestion the spirituality of a
culture that tells you whatrighteousness is and doesn't
(30:42):
invite you to get in touch withand crawl up into the bosom of
the God who is righteousness.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Oh, ok, I am wondering about this
multilingual thing and I havecome into contact with lots of
progressives that it does seemlike none of that stuff.
They took all of the whitenesswith them and just left the
(31:14):
doctrines.
And I think for me thatarrogance piece, that piece of
coming out swinging, has been alittle bit bothersome and I
haven't known how to name that.
And in these spaces, because ofthe book, getting into some of
these white spaces, progressivespaces, and really feeling
(31:35):
inspired by you, really feelingthe challenge to call out
whiteness, like ha ha, kiki, yes, we're all gay, but whiteness
has to go, and I think a lot ofit.
You know, as I'm conversatingwith these folks, it's like, you
know, I do think it is a senseof like who will I be?
Because, right, whiteness isn'trooted, it's not rooted in
(31:57):
anything.
So what would be your word to awhite person who's like Okay, I
want to divest, I don't knowwhere to go from here?
Like, what do I do when I knowwhiteness is bad?
And here I am?
My whole family I mean thepeople I've been talking to has
given me a lot of compassion, Imean homeschool families and you
know, it goes off like a bombin the family, like.
(32:19):
So there are costs, I think, topeople divesting, white people
divesting, or people who havebeen raised white divesting of
that whiteness.
What would be a word for themif they're listening.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, I always, always lean more towards
congratulations versus gratitude, and that may be just my
radicalism, but I'm not going totell no white person who
decided to be anti racist.
(32:56):
Oh, thank you, because we'regonna get free whether or not
you convert to the truth.
But what I can do iscongratulate you Honestly, to
sincerely say congratulations,you have.
You have moved out of thematrix and, yeah, life is harder
(33:18):
out here and maybe I, maybe thematrix is the reference is too
old now because I don't know howmany people even seen the first
one, the first movie.
But congratulations is due.
And this, this reconstruction ofknowing your worth without
(33:39):
having to prove to anyone thatyou can carry the weight of the
world, is probably one of theirbiggest conversion experiences
that there is.
You know, white folkunfortunately have the burden of
acting like I'm subhuman.
I'm so humble, but really whatthey're doing is proving that
they're superhuman, and this isthe same cycle that they put
(34:02):
black folk through.
We are either subhuman orsuperhuman, and if, if, we do
not need white people, thatmakes us the greatest enemy.
And so I think that to offercongratulations to our white
cousins and friends and newcommunity members is more than
(34:23):
an order what they've lost andwhat they might suffer is.
It is, in many ways, going toteach them and those wounds are
precious to God, but their placein movement, their place in
moving towards that ultimateanti racism journey, which is to
(34:45):
finally realize that it iswhiteness itself you may be
fighting against, is to reallylean into what they feel their
spiritual practice ought to be.
Have you rejected Jesus becauseyou're mad at your Sunday
School teacher?
Are you abolishing differentparts of relationships that are
(35:07):
actually helpful for you justbecause you mad?
And to ask the question is yourqueerness, your identity or
your weapon, just to put yourfamily off the Thanksgiving?
Because that's not life, that'snot love?
Now, if you, if you're livingand your family's mad, that's
(35:28):
one thing, but I'm going to tellyou right now that who we are
is not your little triviaquestion.
So just tell someone how dumbthey are.
Don't use all the struggle I'vebeen through to make you feel
better about telling a bigotabout themselves.
(35:48):
Use your own testimony.
Dare to speak about your ownchange, because that is what's
required of you.
And it makes me.
You know many more than justwhite folk are going through
that.
They want to feel validated,they want to feel appreciated,
but congratulations has to bethe thing that they appreciate
(36:12):
most, because we don't.
We don't have time to offerthem gratitude, and the truth is
that God is proud of them andthat has never satisfied any
white Christian that I know.
For some odd reason, they can'tbe satisfied by God being proud
of them because it's nottangible, it's not in their
(36:35):
faces and it doesn't make themany money.
Who want to be anti racist?
I would dare them to.
To become anti capitalist?
I would dare them to see theabolitionist God.
And then then you're startingto move towards what black
people have done that wouldstill that still live under
capitalism.
They still can't be totallycapitalist because capitalism
(36:58):
hates us.
But, in short, I would ask ourcommunity members who are white
to find the testimonies and thestruggles and the advisement
from people that are also white.
I would ask them to Google itand not bother like you or me,
(37:22):
and I would ask them how theyare coming humbly, to sit and to
learn, and how they are lookingat the generation coming behind
them, not raise anothergeneration of oops.
I didn't know I was racist.
How are they raising ageneration that it looks very
different from oops?
Is that bigoted?
How are they refusing to leavetheir family behind?
(37:48):
Build your boundaries as youhave to, but what is your role
in being an ally and how are yougathering your people in the
same way that Jesus gathered hispeople?
The examples are all there andI don't I really don't think
(38:09):
that you have to expect blackpeople to do all the work, even
in advisement.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Indeed.
Oh, my goodness, kind of.
You're already kind of headingtowards the final question, so
I'm gonna, I'm gonna see if Ican't ask you these kind of
consecutively person who is aperson of color, a queer person
of color who, for me, duringthat, that time that I was
(38:37):
hearing you, had no idea that itwas okay to be queer and love
God and be loved by God.
I had no idea.
I did know I was very pissedoff about whiteness and about
black lives and I knew thatthere was something in me that
needed to be said.
I felt something in me thatthat needed to come out, to come
(38:58):
forth.
So for for folks who arelistening, who are in their late
20s, early 30s, who feel likethere's something in them, you
were very much for me a personthat goes that I saw I was like
that's what I want to do, that'swhat I want to be Truthful,
honest, no matter what.
What would you say to a personwho feels like, yeah, there's
(39:20):
something stirring in me as well.
I don't know how to identify it.
I haven't maybe tapped into ityet, but what would your word be
to people of color, youngleaders of color, who are
navigating all of this?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah, oh, my city is very loud today.
I'm sorry it's a hoot.
Listen, the sirens are goingoff and somebody's soul, right.
You know you got to turneverything into a sermon.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Thank you for the lights going off.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
That's right Now listen if your alarm bells are
also ringing.
They say.
They tell me trust your gut,and I think it is OK to freely
go and question and to learn theway the same thing that you did
.
Our siblings need to do thattoo.
(40:11):
They need to reach out tosomeone.
Is there someone that you'relooking at that you trust?
Is there someone that you thinkwho?
I want to at least try this andtalk to them.
Whether or not that persongives you good advice, you will
feel something, you will be ledto something, because if the
spirit is speaking to you, thespirit can use even the worst,
(40:35):
most dastardly person in yourlife to say here's what you run
from.
And the spirit can also use awonderful pastoral presence in
your life to say here's what yourun to.
So I would encourage oursiblings don't do this alone.
You have probably been thinkingand meddling and wrestling and
(40:56):
really just sitting in this fora long time by yourself longer
than you think and one of thethings that I believe God
themselves does is everythingcoordinated together.
I believe God is three people,and so why in the world would
God want you to go through thiskind of journey alone If there
(41:17):
are organizations around youthat really spearhead the work
of queer liberation, especiallyas it pertains to people of
color, black people especiallythen those are the spaces you
want to go to in terms of reallyseeking out and living in your
identity.
If you're having any doubtissues spiritually, sit in that
(41:40):
doubt, ask those questions andhear me when I say that God is
joining you in your doubt.
God is with you in that doubtand God will not forsake you,
even if you decide that youcan't hang out with God right
now.
God is never going to leave youand you can receive that from
(42:03):
an ordained preacher who hadlost people because they decided
they can't hang out with God.
But a good church, a goodpastor, a good friend, a good
family member will only love youmore for being honest with them
, and that is what God will do.
They will only love you morefor being honest about what God
(42:24):
already knew about.
Now, if you are going throughdoubt and you feel you're going
to come out in need of a space,that's where things can get
tricky, because any church yougo to may have a bigoted
undertone that turns into anovertone Then you may be the
lesson that a particular churchor ministry space goes through
(42:44):
to decide oh, we are going toput out a statement whether a
sister, beloved, so-and-so washere and we didn't think we
needed a statement on queernessbefore, but now they showed up.
Prepare your heart for troubleand find a space.
Like I recommended Pride andthe Pews already, I recommend
that people reach out to medirectly.
(43:05):
You never know who folks mightknow, in whatever state,
whatever city, and I truly wantto encourage our siblings that,
while they must not go throughthis alone, they absolutely have
to realize that this path willbe lonely.
This is why we still havehangouts, conferences, chat
(43:26):
rooms and you know chats,because if you are also called
to leadership on the other sideof this, then it will be you
that is preparing theirtestimony.
I like in my call to the callof Ezekiel, where the Lord told
the prophet now I'm going totake you out of the church and
I'm going to put you out amongthe people and I'm going to give
(43:49):
you a message that is the truth, and you will speak the truth
and people will hate you.
But if you concentrate on thehatred of the people who hate
the truth, and if that hatredcauses you to stop speaking,
then when I show up and I tearthese folks up, that blood will
(44:13):
be on your hands, because youknew the truth but you were so
terrified of being hated.
Anyone that knows and feels thetruth has to still speak it,
because the only person, theonly person that you owe any
explanation to, is the God thatput the truth within you.
(44:36):
It's okay to be afraid, but itis not okay to be empowered or
disempowered by people's hateand fear.
Lean into the stories of PaulyBaird.
Lean into the story of JimmyJames.
Baldwin hated the church, buteverything could be a churchy.
(44:59):
I mean the cross of Christ,redemption fire next to come on.
Everything he did was churchy.
Lean on in and in the words ofour brother James Baldwin.
Please remember, pleaseremember the words that Baldwin
actually got from the ApostlePaul with his misogynist behind.
The crown is bought and paidfor.
(45:21):
Your name tag says Saint andnot sinner.
Your crown is bought and paidfor.
Reach up, reach up, reachthrough all of the mess, pull it
down on your head, grow into itand wear it.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
I'm just gonna end it there.
There's nothing else I can't.
Would you, Santurin or Danepastor, would you give us a
benediction?
Speaker 2 (45:49):
for this episode.
Yes, yes, oh, wow, well belovedour our good anthropologist
sister, zora Neale Hurston, whoreally wanted nothing to do with
God, religion or people whoneeded religion to survive.
Right, she still gave us wisdomand she said there are so many
(46:14):
years that ask questions andyears that bring answers.
And she also encouraged us tobring a, a very carefully placed
tool, with us everywhere we go.
And I want us to look ahead.
I want us to look ahead to thefuture, where all of our weapons
(46:36):
will be turned in to tools ofbuilding.
Everything that you have had touse to defend yourself, to
defend people you love, everyweapon you have had to use to
bust through the mess, the muckand the mire, every weapon that
you're now arming yourself with,as you are discovering, you
(46:58):
didn't know you were in a closet, you didn't know you were in a
cave, but now you're walkingtowards a particular kind of
light.
Everything that you fear andknow you will have to fight with
, those are the same things thatGod is going to turn into tools
that will build the house thatyour designs, your blueprints.
(47:23):
God is planting them in you andsoon, and very soon, you will
become a builder, just like theCreator, and so my blessing for
us is this that you would berooted in the God who was far
ahead of you, that you rememberthat faith, hope and love are
(47:46):
the great seeds that God plantswithin us.
Someday, soon, faith willbecome sight, your hopes will be
fulfilled and you won't needfaith and hope anymore.
But love, love will neverchange the future.
Perfection, renewal, theeschatological gift that is
(48:10):
ahead of us All of you have anexperience right now is the same
love that came from yourancestors, who loved you before
they knew you, and it flowsthrough your descendants, who
you love without knowing them.
So the future is in your heartright now, because you possess
(48:32):
the very love that is a weaponto protect yourself and those
that you love, and it is alsothe tool that will build the
house where you can finallyfinally study war no more.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Thank you, sis.
I am so appreciative of you.
It's been amazing to have aconversation with someone I
consider a hero, a person of.
I'm reading books right now.
I'm reading a book called Loveand Rage and it talks about
acknowledging lineage and peoplewho are ancestors, who speak
wisdom and truth to you, thattheir words are like a text, a
(49:12):
wisdom text, and I just have tosay it to your face that you
have been for me, a forerunnerin the pursuit of freedom.
I feel like, even just watchingyou in the way that you glow,
which I know that you deal withprofound.
It is very costly to do whatyou do, but I just need you to
(49:36):
know that it has been so lifegiving for so many of us and I'm
grateful to you.
I look up to you, I admire you,and thanks for being on the
show.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
I'm so glad, I'm so, so grateful, truly, truly.
And you know I tell you everytime we know quick text.
I'm praying for you.
You are in my heart and I amvery, very proud of the path
that you were forging and thepath that you've been very proud
.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Thank you so much I'm going to pause this or end this
.
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