October 26, 2023 • 47 mins
Have you ever questioned the role of communication and clarity in shaping our identity and relationships? This intriguing exploration with E Corey Cole, a dear friend of mine, brings to light the intricacies of non-binary identity and polyamory, particularly how these aspects of personal identity have been influenced by western Christianity. We unravel the spiritual world of mysticism, psychedelics, and crystals, as invaluable tools in gaining insight into non-binary identity, and discuss the power of cultural humility, the necessity of de-colonizing our minds, and the journey to connect more deeply with fellow humans, varied cultures, and the land.
Navigating non-binary identity and polyamory is not without challenges; the social cost can be great. So, how does one maneuver this journey? E Corey Cole shares personal experiences, shedding light on their path to self-discovery, the role of rituals in marking their transformation, and the balancing act of individualism and collectivism. We delve into the potential impact of gentle parenting on children and how non-conventional parenting styles can shape a child's worldview.
Our conversation also uncovers the power of rituals, like poetry and autobiographical books, in initiating healing and personal transformation. E Corey Cole offers profound insights into these processes, illuminating the beauty of participating in each other's stories. So, join us on this journey, as we peel back the layers of non-binary identity and polyamory, challenging preconceived ideas, and stepping into a world of self-exploration, acceptance, and understanding.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the other side of toxic Christianity.
I found myself faced with onequestion, now, what this podcast
is about that question?
We have conversations withfolks who are asking themselves
the same things.
We're picking up the pieces ofa fractured and fragmented faith
.
We're finding treasure in whatthe church called trash, beauty
(00:21):
and solidarity in people andplaces we were told to fear,
reject and dismiss.
I'm Tamise Spencer-Helms, andthis is Life After Leaven.
What's up everybody?
Welcome back to this episode ofLife After Leaven.
I'm your host, tamiseSpencer-Helms, and I'm joined by
my homie.
You probably already heard themspeak on the first season, so
(00:43):
we're not going to do all thethings we typically do in an
episode, but E is here.
I'm going to have you introduceyourself, tell us who you are,
what you do, and then we'regoing to jump in and just talk
like friends.
Okay, because we are.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
We're so, we're so happy.
We're soul friends.
I go by E Corey Cole.
I live in Rhode Island, aoriginally unwelcome guest on
the unseated lands of theNarragansett and the Wampanoag
people.
I love these lands and I'm verygrateful to be on them,
building a relationship withthem.
(01:15):
I am a birth and death doula.
I am also working in higher edright now, but doing diversity,
equity and inclusion work, asmany of us do when we're
recycling our trauma fromevangelicalism Indeed indeed and
trying to make a way in theworld.
I feel very complicated aboutDEI.
Maybe we can get into that,even on the pod.
(01:38):
But I'm also grateful to,mostly for the people that I
advocate, for the students, thestaff, the faculty I work with,
and for LGBTQ folks in aCatholic context right now.
So I'm a parent.
I have two beautiful tinyhumans that I co-parent with my
(02:00):
ex and I live with my platoniclife partner in this funky
little house where we raise ourkids together.
So I have a beautiful life andI'm making my way.
I'm making my way after yearsof white evangelicalism.
So, I'm glad to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
You are.
I think you're one of myfavorite people to talk to
because we've known each otherthrough so many moons of life,
and so there's a couple ofthings that I wouldn't want to
have anyone else speak aboutbesides you.
But I want to talk about someissues.
This season, obviously, isabout queerness.
The title is we're here andwe're Queer, so we've covered a
ton of stuff this season, butwhat I want to talk about is
(02:46):
something that we haven'ttouched on, which is polyamory
right, and this journey towardsbecoming non-binary or coming
out as non-binary, which I haveexperienced with as well.
So I want to just talk about it.
Tell us a little bit about howyou got there.
You and I, a few years back,had conversations about poly, so
talk to me a little bit aboutwhat you went from, who you were
(03:08):
sort of mourning the first timewe had you on the podcast and
who you are now.
Give us that story, thattrajectory, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
What an invitation.
Thank you, you're welcome.
Well, I think that if there'sone through line through all of
these changes, it has beenunderstanding white Western
Christianity's role incolonization and peeling back
that layer.
And when you peel back thelayer that the church as I knew,
(03:38):
it was like a nested dollinside of a much bigger system
and a much bigger project.
It really does impact everyarea of life, including who we
love and how we love, and so Iwas just broaching this
conversation in a very funnyintergenerational moment with my
(03:59):
mom and my aunt and justsharing that.
I think that our generation inparticular is chasing some very
old ways of being andresurrecting ways that humans
have always sensed or knowncould be possible.
So when we think aboutpolyamory, I don't think about
polyamory as a more evolvedstate of humanity.
(04:21):
I think a lot of poly peoplecan be a little obnoxious.
However, I do think it takessome consciousness to get there
and simply put, simply placed,polyamory is about loving
multiple people at the same time.
And for me, that doesn't meanexplicitly sexual connections.
(04:43):
Some people may look on and seepolyamory as a way to have all
the cake and eat it too.
What I'm learning in very Iwant to be clear.
I'm new here.
I'm new here on so many fronts,but what I'm learning is that
these are ways of being that arevery old, that also require an
(05:06):
incredible amount ofcommunication clarity clarity of
knowing what you want andclarity of letting other folks
know and constantly checking in.
So I am and in my polycule,which is the network of loving
relationships in my life.
Some of them are romantic andplatonic queer relationships.
(05:28):
Some of them have sexualdynamics to the partnership,
some of them are comets likeI'll see you when I see you, and
some of them are dailyrelationships.
So what it does, I think itblows open which it queers, the
lines around commitment andfidelity and community.
(05:50):
And I would say, like mostthings in my life, I learned or
became attracted to poly byfirst critiquing it and being
really pissed about it.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Wow, wait.
I'm so interested to hear thisbecause I think one of the ways
that we talked about it was itjust made sense.
So you're saying that you'renew here, but I'm wondering, as
I think about you being queer orbeing non-binary, am I really
new here?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
or am.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I just out in the world.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
And how does that feel for you?
Was it something that when youheard this sort of I've talked
about it before, but like whensomething isn't on the menu you
can't order it right.
So was it something to whereyou hear about polyamory and
it's like that makes sense of me?
Is that kind of how youexperienced it?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I think when I first started listening to and
engaging with content frompeople who are polyamorous
online, it felt like a bit likea homecoming, of like oh, I
understand what you're sayingand I understand the capacity
you're talking about.
I think I've always been andwe've talked about this I've
always been someone with thecapacity to have many loves and
(07:06):
really like a very deep,intimate relationships with
people.
And because of being in whiteevangelicalism, romantic or
sexual dynamics to thoserelationships probably hovered
under the surface and were notnamed and certainly not embodied
.
And so when I say I was pissedabout and like annoyed with this
(07:30):
concept, I remember someone inone of my church communities who
was very passionate as a singleperson of challenging the norms
of what intimacy looked likefor single people, and what I
would say now is they weregetting into some queer shit.
But it was so offensive to myspirit in two ways One, because
of the cognitive dissonance ofbeing told that that was
(07:53):
inappropriate and sinful, andthen the second was because I
wanted that.
That's what I wanted.
I wanted us to be able tochallenge heteronormativity and
the worship of marriage and theways we center.
Romantic connection is the onlyor the most important, and I
(08:14):
think a lot of us are coming tothe consciousness that if you
put all your eggs in theromantic basket, you will surely
be disappointed.
That is not the, it's not theonly ingredient to a fruitful
life.
So there are many, many ways toconnect with people and
relationships can ebb and flow.
So I think, if I'm thinkingabout it, that if we're going
(08:38):
always back to thecharacteristics of white
supremacy around control andpower and being able to track
and property comes in here butmaybe we'll get that eventually
and the passing on of property,private property being a core
(08:59):
tenant of this whole system, Iget why you're socialized to
fear the blurring or thecombining or the crossing of
boundaries of differentrelationships.
And the way I found myself inpolyamorous circles was by
(09:20):
listening to my body, and that'sanother thing we're dissuaded
from and really getting criticalabout what makes me come alive
and makes me hopeful and makesme feel expansive and I find for
myself, a Polyamorousrelationship structure helps me
prioritize the agency ofeveryone, including myself,
(09:40):
mm-hmm, that I am primarily in arelationship with myself and
with others.
Wow, and Monogamy has not ledme to that path and I think
that's that's part of that istrauma and I'm very open to that
being healed and I might findmyself in another Monogamous
relationship in my life.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Wow, wow.
That polyamory is first aboutyou being in a relationship with
yourself is mind-blowing to me.
And it makes sense because Iremember when we talked about it
and you said something to theeffect of I just have, I've
always had a capacity for love,a deep, large, big capacity for
(10:22):
love, and I was like, yes, thismakes so much sense, like, and
it just was such an interestingshift in my mind because it made
sense for, for someone that Iknow, like you, who has so much
Wisdom and depth and ability torelate to folks, I'm kind of
like, yeah, this is somethingthat I Wasn't even thinking of,
(10:44):
polly, like that.
But now that I actually knowsomeone, it's like, yeah, it's
not what it's being caricature,caricature to be.
So it's like, with that, now Iknow, but maybe the audience
doesn't know, was it that first,or was it the gender journey
first?
What, what, what precipitatedwhat?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Great question.
They were both happening at thesame time, but I was not ready
for the social costs ofpolyamory.
So, I do think there's a reallybizarre.
It's an.
It's a bizarre experience in awhite body that benefits from a
lot of these systems to Keepcoming out as more and more
(11:28):
pathologized identities, to comeout as queer initially I'm like
classic, I'm like bisexual tolesbian, to non-binary, trans,
non-binary pipeline and I Ithink, with with each coming out
, is a Exposure to morevulnerability, right, exposure
(11:51):
to more resource vulnerability.
And you and I are both Businessowners, your nonprofit I'm a
business owner like trying tofigure out how do we do this in
a world that Really despises us,right, despises your blackness
and despises my queerness.
And so holding and for you,your queerness and your
blackness, like holding allthese intersections together.
(12:12):
I Think I really appreciateyour observation that these are
not like are we new here?
Because I think for me, andsomething my spiritual director
and I have named, is like it'snot that there's a seed inside
of me that now gets room,there's an oak inside of me that
now is like being revealed.
So that can be a very Shockingexperience for people who have
(12:36):
known me when I was hidingMm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Indeed, I feel like that's probably the hardest part
about the non-binary likeleaning more and more into my
masculinity and being so excitedand so at home in my skin and
having people's reactions belike well, like, wait a minute,
like we don't, we don't know youlike this but people love me or
(13:03):
like, yeah, you've always beenthis person.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I'm glad you're here, I Hope it's okay to say I
remember seeing pictures of your, your first wedding, and
feeling that dissonance and andfeeling like I was watching you
perform something you felt youwere supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Absolutely did 100%.
Now, like I know that that weboth actually have we have exes,
we have kids from our exitnavigating.
Well, you're navigatingco-parenting.
I'm navigating something.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, Lord.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
So so what if you don't mind talking about that,
the beauty in the story with youand your ex?
I Would love for you to shareanything you'd love to share
about that, because I think it'sso.
Here's why I want to talk aboutthat, and again, we're having a
conversation, so there's notreally a topic.
But what I love about it islike when people like you're
(13:59):
saying my life is so full, it isso Rich and it's beautiful, my
relationships are deep andLife-giving and at the same time
, there are these elements thatare just thorny all around my
life.
But I've been thinking about howpeople, when they really come
(14:19):
into who they are and when theyreally love a person, it's
almost like you're very excitedto see that person thrive and
come into who they are andfinally have their own freedom
and stuff like that.
And so that's what I've watchedwith you and your ex like just
in that whole journey, and Iwould love for you to share it,
just because I think people needhope.
I think you know some folks arekind of considering, like, do
we stay together?
(14:39):
He's like in his 50s, is atrans woman, so he's still using
he him.
Yeah they're going, they'rehaving these conversations yeah,
he's that, he's a she, yeah,and his wife and him have been
married for like 38 years, right, and so they're navigating this
(15:00):
and and his conversation was welove each other so much that we
can't imagine getting in theway Of each other's freedom.
And so they're like do we, arewe roommates?
Like how do?
Yeah, yeah, each other right.
So yeah, talk to me about that.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Okay, which I will.
I just want to say, like, if wecan, if we can be open with
poking monogamy and seeingwhat's there a situation like
that, there are infinitepossibilities for connection.
And I think, if I think oftoxic monogamy, what it does,
and again, all this through awhite, western, colonizing
(15:36):
perspective, again aroundprivate property and the
tracking of it and it going fromgeneration to generation, like
those are the primary ways thatmarriage as we know it was
constructed in a political way,it's wild.
It's wild, right, right.
So if you, just if you start topoke that, what is?
There's so many possibilities,like there is a multiverse where
(16:01):
I wouldn't even have had to getdivorced if that felt
attainable and it did not for us, and that's okay and that's
what ended up happening.
But there are worlds thatpeople are co-creating right now
where kids live in a householdwith their parents and their
parents have their partners intheir lives and there is no
divorce process.
And it does blow open ourcreativity to co-create the
(16:26):
world we want to.
And I wanna add, I'm quite a bitof a relationship anarchist
because, as I've pulled on thisthread, I define poly as the
ability to love multiple peopleat the same time.
That's what we all do, that'swhat you do.
You are in a monogamousromantic relationship, but you,
literally you also have a hugecapacity of love we all do.
And where it gets very taboo isaround sexual partners and
(16:50):
romantic loves and because ofthe ways that that activates our
attachment systems, where wedon't know that we will be
secure.
So I do wanna point thelisteners to there isn't I wanna
make sure that I tag themcorrectly there's an amazing
creator on Instagram and on onTikTok, decolonizing Love and
(17:18):
yeah, millie and Nick and theyeducate on polyamory and how
European colonization changedhow we love and their content is
great.
They're interracial, neuro,spicy people doing poly and
teaching us so much so justwanna highlight that resource.
But many of the ways that Ihave learned to relate to people
(17:39):
through a polyamorous frameworkI apply to my relationship with
my ex-husband and his partner,which is to say that more is
possible and that we need to bedirect in our communication
around our boundaries, and sowhat we have navigated is
teamwork.
We are all a team.
My kids, they proudly say theyhave three homes Mommy's house,
(18:03):
daddy's house and Mimi andPapa's my parents' home.
And my ex-husband is still veryclose with my parents.
They are a core resource in oursurvival and in parenting the
kids and helping us that we areso fortunate not everyone has
that kind of assistant and my exand I are very different people
and part of one of the thingsthat he said to me that I hold
(18:27):
on to at the end of our marriageI caused a lot of harm at the
end, did not act in integrity,and so there was quite a repair
process ahead of us and he toldme it wasn't the harm that you
caused that taint our marriage.
It was when you told me youcouldn't be your full self in
this marriage.
And that's love, frankly.
(18:47):
Like that is the love I love.
Belle Hook's definition she justputs it into words like love is
my investment in your spiritualwellbeing, in your wholeness.
Like and that doesn't mean areligious, you know sense of
wellbeing.
It's about your integration andyour flourishing and I take
that into every partnership inmy life and that means that I
(19:09):
hold people with an open handand that kind of detachment is
not an avoid.
I'm sure it can feed avoidantpractices right.
You could fear that way and belike I'm just.
You can come in and outwhenever, I don't care.
You know like no, I care.
I care I'm invested, butultimately I have to hold all of
(19:29):
my relationships with an openhand to know that my love is an
investment in who you are andwho you are becoming, and if
that means that we will nolonger share proximity, that we
will escalate and de-escalateour relationship as needed
infinite possibilities.
But what I will say, what isnecessary is a healthy amount of
(19:53):
ego death and ego dissolution.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Ooh gosh, the ego death machine.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yes so, and part of that ego death.
So case in point with myex-husband and his partner is is
, for me, being secure in myrole as a parent in my child's
life and knowing that no otherrelationship has to threaten
that that relationships addvalue.
(20:20):
So having another loving adultin my kid's life is a beautiful
and a good thing and I think theway that we set it up at the
time both my ex-husband and I weboth had girlfriends, which was
really sweet for a period oftime, and we both met each
other's partners privately.
So I was not there when Chrismet my then-girlfriend and was
not there when I met hisgirlfriend and his partner and
(20:43):
we established relationship andbuild relationship and have
honored direct communication andboundaries have been crossed
and you don't know when yourboundaries are gonna be, crossed
, so when they are, we commit tocommunicating them.
That changes.
How often are we gathering?
Where are we gathering?
When are we gathering?
I'm playing the long game herefor intimacy and connection and
(21:06):
for the kids.
So I do think, like thepolyamory has given me the gift
of really examining my ownattachment system and
understanding when I'm trippedup and what's going on, and
being really open to expansivecreativity, that there are many
different kinds of connectionsthat are possible in
(21:27):
relationships.
Whew.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I just wanna hold that for a sec Because it's just
it's.
I really do believe that, likewhere we're going in society,
the imagination for where we'regoing is just starting to bud
and to me, if I find it reallyexciting like Ellison and I talk
(21:53):
a lot about like where thingscould possibly go they kind of
think like it's a returning tothe earth and I agree, I'm like
I think Harlem's generation isgonna create ways to, I don't
know, have oxygen somehowmanifesting out of a hologram.
It's like it's something I justfeel like the creativity and
(22:14):
the technology and theanti-racism and the
decolonization, like I think allof that stuff could come
together to create somethingbeautiful and, at the end of the
day, like this is all a lessonin imagination, like all of it
is about and it's so funnybecause this morning I still I'm
(22:35):
wearing this light jacket, butlike this morning I woke up in
it and what popped in my mindwas that passage that talks
about how there are many morethings I need to tell you, but
you can't bear them right now,which is a weird thing to think
about, because what theirteacher was telling them was
like your imagination cannotstretch to the things that I
(22:59):
could tell you are true andreality and you can't bear them.
So there's two things happening.
There's way more than we got inscripture, and so also Jesus
sets it up that there's stuffI'm gonna say beyond this right,
and so to me that feels soexciting because I haven't had a
hard time navigating newspiritual experiences,
(23:22):
navigating new language,navigating new containers and
grounding those in my past andgrounding those in my history
and grounding those and evenalmost like my container comes
with me.
Like you know, I can have aview of all of these things and
they make a complete sense to me, even given, like the past
(23:43):
worldview I held in a lot ofways, or at least the non-white
one.
So I think that this is helpfuland you're saying what I hear
you saying is like thedecolonization journey is
actually important.
Before you ever enter into thissort of sexuality and gender
journey, would you agree with?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
that?
Yes, I would.
I wanna read you a poem, Ifthat's okay, just hitting on
what you just said, and then wecan jump.
I would love to jump back moreinto that, and this is from a
German poet, no less, reinerMaria Erilke, and this is a poem
that I have rewritten manytimes and painted, and it's
(24:20):
right on my mirror, so I look atit every day, and this has been
the thesis that has carried methe last two to five years of
deconstruction and rebirth Bepatient toward all that is
unsolved in your heart and tryto love the questions themselves
, like locked rooms and likebooks that are now written in a
(24:43):
very foreign tongue.
Do not now seek the answerswhich cannot be given you
because you would not be able tolive them, and the point is to
live everything.
Live the questions now.
Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live
(25:04):
along some distant day into theanswer.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
And that'll do it in civilized way.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Give the earth Literally, and I love your tie
to Jesus' words because Jesuswas a mystic.
I think the spiritual journeyI've been on is about mysticism
and poets are mystics.
I am a poet, I am a writer andan artist, and I love the weird
ones.
I love the ones who prophesy.
(25:35):
Sometimes I wonder if John wason psychedelics when he wrote
Revelation.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah, you know the word that's used there for what
John is on and also Peter, whenPeter has Peter's vision, the
ecstasy is like where we get thephrase ecstasy.
Like they were, there wassomething else going on there
and I mean people don't talkabout it, but mandrakes and all
that kind of stuff, like thatstuff was like psychedelics,
(26:02):
like they really it wasn't.
People just don't look intothat stuff.
That's why I'm like you knowwhat?
It makes sense to me, becauseeven this is a side note, but
thinking about like spiritualpractice and stuff, like I've
started to get into crystals andall those types of things and
like, yep, I got my ring.
Oh, my goodness, you're RoseQuartz, I got Rose Quartz soon.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Cute pictures and Jesus loves us.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Indeed, and it's so funny because, like when you
read Revelation 4, right, and Ihad to memorize it when I lived
in Kansas City, you know, I wasin the Spirit on the Lord's day
and I heard a trumpet and hegoes up and he looks and he's
like and behold, I saw one.
I saw a throne and on the oneon the throne was one seated and
(26:50):
he looked like or the one thatwas seated doesn't even
genderize, the one that wassitting there looked like Jasper
and Sardias and Carnillion.
And then there's an emeraldrainbow.
I'm like he is talking aboutcrystals.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It's all connected, baby.
It is all connected.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
I'm like y'all keep trying to say that this is like
what you've kind of deduced downto why Jesus, but like he's
describing crystals, which to melike going on that journey of
understanding crystals and howthey work and what they
represent, is so interesting tome because now even that passage
has way more meaning, becausenow that I know what Jasper and
Sardias and Carnillion andemerald means, like the way that
(27:34):
they function as crystals, I'mlike yo, john is trying to tell
you so much more about theGodhead than like there's going
to be this violent uprising atthe end of days, Like this
formation here that he's seeing.
That is like all you have arewhat Lightning's thunderings,
(27:55):
voices.
You've got vibration, vibration, baby.
You've got lights and you'vegot crystals Right in Revelation
4.
I'm saying like it's reallyfunny to think about how so much
of I had to take off my shoes,I had to touch the ground.
I'm just saying like there's somany things that that we have
(28:19):
happened upon in saying you know, I'll speak for myself happened
upon in the name of leavingwhite Jesus.
It brought so much life.
Yes, and it's like, oh my God,like I don't I still haven't had
to throw away Jesus, like youknow, like not that Jesus is
throwing, but you know what Imean.
It's like, whoa, you're heretoo, you're buying this door and
(28:41):
that door and this door.
And it's like, oh my God, likewe were in a very small system.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
It was very earlier this year I worked up the
courage to do my first tarotcard reading experience and yeah
, I grew up in a castle, youknow.
You know the level of barrierto exploring any of that kind of
spirituality and on my firstpull, one of it was like an
Oracle deck with a differentmostly, I believe, hindu gods
(29:09):
and goddesses, and it talkedabout Shekinah.
And I was cracking up becauseI'm like Shekinah in this card
was about the divine feminine, avery, very powerful spirit, and
I'm all thinking about aShekinah glory and I'm like yo,
we've really like, we've reallystole this shit, yes, and
(29:29):
repackaged it, but it's, there'ssomething.
I mean Richard Rohr, you knowthis white Catholic mystic, he's
talked about it too.
He's like the more you foldinto love and suffering, the
more universal this gets.
And it's not in like a whitemiddle class unitarian
flattening way.
I don't.
It's not a coexist bumpersticker.
(29:50):
I'm not about that.
It is about distinctiveness andflavor and texture and mosaic.
But I think the culturalhumility that I'm experiencing,
as I encounter parts of thedivine that were baptized in one
form of language and I see themapparent in another culture,
like that connects me to otherhumans and other cultures into
(30:11):
the land, and, yeah, I.
So I think that that journeyand the decolonizing, so sucking
out the poison, life after 11.
To your point, like I guess, asa white person and descendant of
colonizers, I always have myI'm always looking over my
(30:33):
shoulder to be vigilant.
If there's something I want tobe hyper vigilant about, I want
to be hyper vigilant aboutrecreating whiteness wherever I
go.
So I think when it comes topolyamory and my gender journey,
I always say like I've beencoming out as trans, non binary
for about a year, but I alwayssay that my socialization as a
(30:57):
white woman will always with me.
I don't get to evolve out ofthe political role that white
women have to play and upholdingoppression and anti blackness.
So that feels very important asa white queer person that my
whiteness is the heaviest thingabout me.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
And that's just reality.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
It's like being in an AA meeting, you know.
It's like it's just beingreally sober about what I carry
in my body and what I'mcomplicit in.
So the gender expansiveness Ithink I fear that it can
sometimes be a way that whitefolks are trying to distance
ourselves from our owncomplicity in oppressive shit.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Oh man but and but and it is.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Also.
It is good to get really clearabout who you are and where you
begin and where you end, and Ifeel pretty gender expansive and
inclusive.
I think there will be a daywhere all pronouns feel fine for
me.
She, her pronouns have feltpretty like quite dysphoric for
(32:07):
a little bit, and so I've justbeen asking my community to use
they pronouns and I present itin a pretty fluid way and this
is the best way to address mefor now, because I am.
I am nothing if not committedto revision for the sake of
authenticity and people know.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
you know that though.
Yeah, like I feel like that's,that's what I've been on for and
it's like you know, justthinking about, my new
epistemology in life is honesty,oh beautiful, Just radical
honesty and just be honest, tellthe truth, like you know as
much as I know to be true, as asas I know the truth today, and
(32:45):
like I feel like that's been sohelpful because thinking about,
obviously you know my partner'stransmask and when we met they
were using a different name,they were using a different,
even presenting differently in away, and so it was like it's so
beautiful to watch someone likeyou're saying the oak inside of
someone finally have the spaceto stand and to be.
(33:08):
It's just been like it's justbeen a very beautiful thing to
watch because it's like, oh,this is you, like this is you,
and you're getting to see likesomeone become themselves, like
become who they, who they'vealways been, because they have
the safety and the permission todo that.
That's right.
It's been a really, reallybeautiful journey.
I just feel like there's thereis a ton of stuff that you can
(33:32):
talk about.
I love the idea of us.
You said something about themore you lean into love and
suffering, the more universalthis becomes, and something
about that, when you weretalking about holding your
whiteness and being cognizantabout that, and it almost feels
like, okay, so there is thesolidarity right, Because black
(33:54):
people are constantly remindedof how they live and move in a
space and so for a person to say, I understand my whiteness is
currency, the New Evangelicalsbook club yesterday like came up
with that phrase.
They were like because it.
I was like you know, I wastrying to figure out what phrase
do we use?
Do we use like technology?
Do we use property?
(34:15):
We weren't sure, but they werelike we should use currency
because it encompasses all ofthat, encompasses class.
So, thinking through all ofthose things and going, the more
you strip that, the more thingsfold into themselves and you
get to this idea of God is, allin all and all, correct, correct
(34:37):
, correct.
I mean where else are you goingto go from?
I mean you.
I mean like you know, yeah, Iknow.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I've been thinking a lot about the relationship
between the individual and thecollective and I think what I've
really had the privilege oflearning from collectivist
cultures, from indigenous folksand leaders about our collective
role and the ways thatcollectivism can obscure the
individual in ways that areharmful and the ways that
individualism can obscure thecollective in ways that are
(35:07):
harmful.
And I guess for me on thegender journey it has really
been about just understandingwhere I begin and where I end,
that I'm a, I'm a limited, um,human being, um, I.
There have always been waysthat woman, this has chafed
against something in my spiritas not quite right.
Um, and you, you, youinterrogate that right.
(35:30):
You're like, oh, is this likemy internalized misogyny?
Is this this, is it that?
And I think just coming, I meana local feminine is like one of
the most beautiful prophets inthis area.
Everything that they have tosay about gender makes me weep,
especially because they arerooted in such an abolitionist
love ethic that I don't carevery often.
Like that, they talk about thegendered world as violent and
(35:54):
the ways that it does violent tocis people and it does violence
to all of us to not be able tojust play Like I shaved all my
hair off on the spring equinoxthis year in total ritual and
ceremony.
It was witchy and Jesusy as allget out, and I had my beloveds
(36:15):
in the room with me.
Months prior I had just umended a relationship with one of
the loves of my life, who Istill love deeply first queer
relationship and I knew that Ineeded an external marker of the
internal shifts and that itwould be like a sacrament for me
(36:35):
as a mystic to sacrifice thefeminine.
Like I had some good.
I had, you know, some goodwhite girl hair, the swoopy
swoopies, and I felt very sexywith that hair and it was a
shield and it was a socializedthing.
It was a way to fawn towardspowerful people.
(36:57):
Like it in my own little whiteway.
Like shaving all my hair offhas confronted me with a lot of
isms, a lot of privilege and alot of ways that, especially in
my workplace, I'm likephysically embodying the thing
that they despise.
Like I am becoming more close toa thing that is despised and
that is so fucking powerful toexperience in your body and to
(37:21):
say, like I, I am on a journeyto the root and I need somatic,
ritual and tangible ways tomeasure that and experience that
.
And maybe this is like a littlemasochistic, but I was just
like I need to not be able tohide, and it does feel very
exposing and very horrible toplay with your gender expression
(37:44):
and to do so publicly and mykids carry grief over it.
I think all kids do Like.
I've heard stories of kids whosedads shaved their beard off and
kids are weeping.
They're like Daddy, no, youknow.
Like kids feel safety andsecurity and a consistent sense
of their parent.
And my kids are like, when isyour hair going to grow back?
(38:05):
We miss this version of you andI have to believe that I am
modeling for them something,something courageous, that it is
okay.
It is okay to take these thingson in your body and it's okay
to play and to figure out whoyou are and, yeah, they in that.
(38:28):
And I think it's important totalk about the kids in this
journey and I this is only oneperspective on like, as they get
older they'll tell their ownstories, but they in their
little lives have had to makeroom in their worldview for a
lot of different possibilities.
You know and they hop to in away that's very interesting.
(38:52):
My four year old was like it'sreally cool that we call you mom
E, because it has your name init E mom.
E you know, like they just findcreative ways to connect with
me in the way that I am sharingmyself with them, and I was.
They had gotten me a Mother'sDay book with from Bluey that is
about Bluey's mom and you knowshe her pronouns through the
(39:14):
whole book and Parker was likecorrecting the pronouns as we
went.
He's like, well, for you, itwould be that they get on the
floor and play with me.
I like never do, but you know Iwas like, oh, that's amazing.
So just these little flexiblepeople that teach me a lot
no-transcript.
I think my kids in this time inmy life are teaching me a lot
period.
The way that they move throughtheir emotions and then snap
(39:35):
back.
They're just like, yeah, thatwas a feeling that was brutal.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
I'm good now, like yeah, yeah, we're doing that
with Harlem the attachment styleparenting and gentle parenting,
and it's.
It's really incredible to watchsomeone feel they live in a
house where there is no shameallowed, you know, and to see
(39:58):
the level of confidence and likejust life that she lives with
when she goes out of our house.
I mean, harlem is a life forceLike there's no other way to
describe her she it's likeraising a bonfire, you know,
like she is fire and and I loveit and she's.
(40:19):
She's thoughtful and deep andcourageous and emotional and
loud and she just all of thesethings to just watch like and
you kind of, as a parent, you'relike you're witnessing
something very holy, in myopinion.
I'm witnessing a person becomethemself on a number of levels
(40:40):
in our house and thinking abouthow she corrects everybody.
My nobi is not a she, it's they,and it's just like duh, like,
and it's been so interesting towatch her respond to all of this
stuff and be like it's not thatbig of a deal for her Hop to
hop to, it's just like no,they're they.
And like the things that she'sbeen exposed to at her age and
(41:04):
like all of Ellison's likechosen family, is deaf or hard
of hearing, or or went toGallaudet and then on top of
that, they're all.
Most of them are all queer.
So all Harlem is around isconversations about access,
conversations about queerness,conversations about different
ways of doing spirituality andlife, and it's just been such a
(41:26):
beautiful thing to just watch.
It's magical.
It is magical.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
You know, and look at like frankly, look at you in
the middle of that ecosystem,like, and your countenance, I
think the things that have beenshed like literally, like when I
think of you, I think of thisto this, which I don't know if
the listeners are not gonna seethat, but I'm just like
contorting, kind of like a cat.
Cat contorting my body inwardand then exhaling outward, and
(41:55):
that, I think, was the point Iwas making a little bit back is,
when you start decolonizing,you understand that my role as
an individual in the collectiveis to have a clear sense of who
I am and to fully embody that,that that is loving to my
community.
And then I communicate myboundaries and my needs and mute
(42:16):
and we then are tied in a webof mutual care and connection
with each other and everyonedeserves that.
Everyone deserves that selfdetermination and that agency.
And it's not and I think wherewhiteness got it so wrong was
like we're just going toprioritize these people being
able to live and move and havetheir being at the expense and
(42:37):
exploitation of everyone else,and that's wrong, it's so wrong.
So, yeah, just the I.
So I think the secure, thesecure self in a white body is
to say I do take up space, but Itake up a very particular
amount of space.
Like I don't self flagellateright False humility and try to
(42:58):
contort myself to somehow atone.
I do repair and make reparationand I do take up the space that
I take up and it's exactly thismuch so that you can also have
exactly this much, you know andeveryone can embody what we're
meant to be.
There's this kind of readanother poem Sorry, I'm full.
Of course.
This is from Audrey Lord.
(43:20):
Oh, yeah, and it is when shewas pregnant with her daughter.
I'm sorry if it takes me amoment to pull it.
Yeah, it's called now that I amforever with child and Audrey
(43:44):
Lord what a saint right.
Saint like.
I yeah, when I it's.
It can be hard as a whiteperson to find good ancestors
and I don't.
I don't get to claim Audrey asmy ancestor, but as someone who
mentors me, absolutely who I getto look at and learn from.
So this is, this is her poem,now that I am forever with child
(44:08):
.
How the days went while youwere blooming within me.
I remember, each upon each, theswelling, changed planes of my
body and how you first fluttered, then jumped and I thought it
was my heart.
How the days wound down and theturning of winter.
(44:28):
I recall, with you growingheavy against the wind, I
thought.
Now her hands are formed andher hair has started to curl.
Now her teeth are done, now shesneezes.
Then the seed opened and I boreyou one morning, just before
spring, my head rang like afiery piston.
(44:50):
My legs were towers betweenwhich a new world was passing.
Since then, I can onlydistinguish one thread within
running hours you flowingthrough selves toward you.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Hmm, Well say la my God, my God Wow.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
There's a beautiful biographical book that I'm
reading about people who areparents, mostly cis women who
are mothers, but it includesessays on Audrey Lord and Alice
Walker and how most of them werepoly navigating their
creativity, their parenting,their sex lives and romantic
(45:40):
lives, and their wholeness inthe freaking 40s and 50s, like,
yes, you know, like in thatbackdrop and that poem you
running, like through selves, toyou feels like such good
medicine for the, for theseevolutions.
(46:01):
You know and what we're talkingabout.
And for me, that's the genderjourney, that's exploring
polyamory, it's queerness, it'svocation, you know, and it's
finding my place in the familyof things.
It's finding that I have a rolein the collective, and it's not
always about me.
I get to participate in otherpeople's stories and it's a
(46:24):
beautiful thing.
It's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
And you are a beautiful person.
I love talking to you and thereare like so many things we
could talk about.
Like it's, you'll be back,you'll probably be regular, so I
love it.
Thank you for this vestige ofwisdom.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
It's so good to be with you.
Love you, friend.
I love you.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Thank you for listening.
To paint your money in yourheart is donate to Subquatcher
Inc and clear the path for blackstudents today.
On the other side of toxic Christianity.
I found myself faced with onequestion, now, what this podcast
is about that question?
We have conversations withfolks who are asking themselves
the same things.
We're picking up the pieces ofa fractured and fragmented faith
.
We're finding treasure in whatthe church called trash, beauty
(00:21):
and solidarity in people andplaces we were told to fear,
reject and dismiss.
I'm Tamise Spencer-Helms, andthis is Life After Leaven.
What's up everybody?
Welcome back to this episode ofLife After Leaven.
I'm your host, tamiseSpencer-Helms, and I'm joined by
my homie.
You probably already heard themspeak on the first season, so
(00:43):
we're not going to do all thethings we typically do in an
episode, but E is here.
I'm going to have you introduceyourself, tell us who you are,
what you do, and then we'regoing to jump in and just talk
like friends.
Okay, because we are.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
We're so, we're so happy.
We're soul friends.
I go by E Corey Cole.
I live in Rhode Island, aoriginally unwelcome guest on
the unseated lands of theNarragansett and the Wampanoag
people.
I love these lands and I'm verygrateful to be on them,
building a relationship withthem.
(01:15):
I am a birth and death doula.
I am also working in higher edright now, but doing diversity,
equity and inclusion work, asmany of us do when we're
recycling our trauma fromevangelicalism Indeed indeed and
trying to make a way in theworld.
I feel very complicated aboutDEI.
Maybe we can get into that,even on the pod.
(01:38):
But I'm also grateful to,mostly for the people that I
advocate, for the students, thestaff, the faculty I work with,
and for LGBTQ folks in aCatholic context right now.
So I'm a parent.
I have two beautiful tinyhumans that I co-parent with my
(02:00):
ex and I live with my platoniclife partner in this funky
little house where we raise ourkids together.
So I have a beautiful life andI'm making my way.
I'm making my way after yearsof white evangelicalism.
So, I'm glad to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
You are.
I think you're one of myfavorite people to talk to
because we've known each otherthrough so many moons of life,
and so there's a couple ofthings that I wouldn't want to
have anyone else speak aboutbesides you.
But I want to talk about someissues.
This season, obviously, isabout queerness.
The title is we're here andwe're Queer, so we've covered a
ton of stuff this season, butwhat I want to talk about is
(02:46):
something that we haven'ttouched on, which is polyamory
right, and this journey towardsbecoming non-binary or coming
out as non-binary, which I haveexperienced with as well.
So I want to just talk about it.
Tell us a little bit about howyou got there.
You and I, a few years back,had conversations about poly, so
talk to me a little bit aboutwhat you went from, who you were
(03:08):
sort of mourning the first timewe had you on the podcast and
who you are now.
Give us that story, thattrajectory, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
What an invitation.
Thank you, you're welcome.
Well, I think that if there'sone through line through all of
these changes, it has beenunderstanding white Western
Christianity's role incolonization and peeling back
that layer.
And when you peel back thelayer that the church as I knew,
(03:38):
it was like a nested dollinside of a much bigger system
and a much bigger project.
It really does impact everyarea of life, including who we
love and how we love, and so Iwas just broaching this
conversation in a very funnyintergenerational moment with my
(03:59):
mom and my aunt and justsharing that.
I think that our generation inparticular is chasing some very
old ways of being andresurrecting ways that humans
have always sensed or knowncould be possible.
So when we think aboutpolyamory, I don't think about
polyamory as a more evolvedstate of humanity.
(04:21):
I think a lot of poly peoplecan be a little obnoxious.
However, I do think it takessome consciousness to get there
and simply put, simply placed,polyamory is about loving
multiple people at the same time.
And for me, that doesn't meanexplicitly sexual connections.
(04:43):
Some people may look on and seepolyamory as a way to have all
the cake and eat it too.
What I'm learning in very Iwant to be clear.
I'm new here.
I'm new here on so many fronts,but what I'm learning is that
these are ways of being that arevery old, that also require an
(05:06):
incredible amount ofcommunication clarity clarity of
knowing what you want andclarity of letting other folks
know and constantly checking in.
So I am and in my polycule,which is the network of loving
relationships in my life.
Some of them are romantic andplatonic queer relationships.
(05:28):
Some of them have sexualdynamics to the partnership,
some of them are comets likeI'll see you when I see you, and
some of them are dailyrelationships.
So what it does, I think itblows open which it queers, the
lines around commitment andfidelity and community.
(05:50):
And I would say, like mostthings in my life, I learned or
became attracted to poly byfirst critiquing it and being
really pissed about it.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Wow, wait.
I'm so interested to hear thisbecause I think one of the ways
that we talked about it was itjust made sense.
So you're saying that you'renew here, but I'm wondering, as
I think about you being queer orbeing non-binary, am I really
new here?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
or am.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I just out in the world.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
And how does that feel for you?
Was it something that when youheard this sort of I've talked
about it before, but like whensomething isn't on the menu you
can't order it right.
So was it something to whereyou hear about polyamory and
it's like that makes sense of me?
Is that kind of how youexperienced it?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I think when I first started listening to and
engaging with content frompeople who are polyamorous
online, it felt like a bit likea homecoming, of like oh, I
understand what you're sayingand I understand the capacity
you're talking about.
I think I've always been andwe've talked about this I've
always been someone with thecapacity to have many loves and
(07:06):
really like a very deep,intimate relationships with
people.
And because of being in whiteevangelicalism, romantic or
sexual dynamics to thoserelationships probably hovered
under the surface and were notnamed and certainly not embodied
.
And so when I say I was pissedabout and like annoyed with this
(07:30):
concept, I remember someone inone of my church communities who
was very passionate as a singleperson of challenging the norms
of what intimacy looked likefor single people, and what I
would say now is they weregetting into some queer shit.
But it was so offensive to myspirit in two ways One, because
of the cognitive dissonance ofbeing told that that was
(07:53):
inappropriate and sinful, andthen the second was because I
wanted that.
That's what I wanted.
I wanted us to be able tochallenge heteronormativity and
the worship of marriage and theways we center.
Romantic connection is the onlyor the most important, and I
(08:14):
think a lot of us are coming tothe consciousness that if you
put all your eggs in theromantic basket, you will surely
be disappointed.
That is not the, it's not theonly ingredient to a fruitful
life.
So there are many, many ways toconnect with people and
relationships can ebb and flow.
So I think, if I'm thinkingabout it, that if we're going
(08:38):
always back to thecharacteristics of white
supremacy around control andpower and being able to track
and property comes in here butmaybe we'll get that eventually
and the passing on of property,private property being a core
(08:59):
tenant of this whole system, Iget why you're socialized to
fear the blurring or thecombining or the crossing of
boundaries of differentrelationships.
And the way I found myself inpolyamorous circles was by
(09:20):
listening to my body, and that'sanother thing we're dissuaded
from and really getting criticalabout what makes me come alive
and makes me hopeful and makesme feel expansive and I find for
myself, a Polyamorousrelationship structure helps me
prioritize the agency ofeveryone, including myself,
(09:40):
mm-hmm, that I am primarily in arelationship with myself and
with others.
Wow, and Monogamy has not ledme to that path and I think
that's that's part of that istrauma and I'm very open to that
being healed and I might findmyself in another Monogamous
relationship in my life.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Wow, wow.
That polyamory is first aboutyou being in a relationship with
yourself is mind-blowing to me.
And it makes sense because Iremember when we talked about it
and you said something to theeffect of I just have, I've
always had a capacity for love,a deep, large, big capacity for
(10:22):
love, and I was like, yes, thismakes so much sense, like, and
it just was such an interestingshift in my mind because it made
sense for, for someone that Iknow, like you, who has so much
Wisdom and depth and ability torelate to folks, I'm kind of
like, yeah, this is somethingthat I Wasn't even thinking of,
(10:44):
polly, like that.
But now that I actually knowsomeone, it's like, yeah, it's
not what it's being caricature,caricature to be.
So it's like, with that, now Iknow, but maybe the audience
doesn't know, was it that first,or was it the gender journey
first?
What, what, what precipitatedwhat?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Great question.
They were both happening at thesame time, but I was not ready
for the social costs ofpolyamory.
So, I do think there's a reallybizarre.
It's an.
It's a bizarre experience in awhite body that benefits from a
lot of these systems to Keepcoming out as more and more
(11:28):
pathologized identities, to comeout as queer initially I'm like
classic, I'm like bisexual tolesbian, to non-binary, trans,
non-binary pipeline and I Ithink, with with each coming out
, is a Exposure to morevulnerability, right, exposure
(11:51):
to more resource vulnerability.
And you and I are both Businessowners, your nonprofit I'm a
business owner like trying tofigure out how do we do this in
a world that Really despises us,right, despises your blackness
and despises my queerness.
And so holding and for you,your queerness and your
blackness, like holding allthese intersections together.
(12:12):
I Think I really appreciateyour observation that these are
not like are we new here?
Because I think for me, andsomething my spiritual director
and I have named, is like it'snot that there's a seed inside
of me that now gets room,there's an oak inside of me that
now is like being revealed.
So that can be a very Shockingexperience for people who have
(12:36):
known me when I was hidingMm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Indeed, I feel like that's probably the hardest part
about the non-binary likeleaning more and more into my
masculinity and being so excitedand so at home in my skin and
having people's reactions belike well, like, wait a minute,
like we don't, we don't know youlike this but people love me or
(13:03):
like, yeah, you've always beenthis person.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I'm glad you're here, I Hope it's okay to say I
remember seeing pictures of your, your first wedding, and
feeling that dissonance and andfeeling like I was watching you
perform something you felt youwere supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Absolutely did 100%.
Now, like I know that that weboth actually have we have exes,
we have kids from our exitnavigating.
Well, you're navigatingco-parenting.
I'm navigating something.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, Lord.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
So so what if you don't mind talking about that,
the beauty in the story with youand your ex?
I Would love for you to shareanything you'd love to share
about that, because I think it'sso.
Here's why I want to talk aboutthat, and again, we're having a
conversation, so there's notreally a topic.
But what I love about it islike when people like you're
(13:59):
saying my life is so full, it isso Rich and it's beautiful, my
relationships are deep andLife-giving and at the same time
, there are these elements thatare just thorny all around my
life.
But I've been thinking about howpeople, when they really come
(14:19):
into who they are and when theyreally love a person, it's
almost like you're very excitedto see that person thrive and
come into who they are andfinally have their own freedom
and stuff like that.
And so that's what I've watchedwith you and your ex like just
in that whole journey, and Iwould love for you to share it,
just because I think people needhope.
I think you know some folks arekind of considering, like, do
we stay together?
(14:39):
He's like in his 50s, is atrans woman, so he's still using
he him.
Yeah they're going, they'rehaving these conversations yeah,
he's that, he's a she, yeah,and his wife and him have been
married for like 38 years, right, and so they're navigating this
(15:00):
and and his conversation was welove each other so much that we
can't imagine getting in theway Of each other's freedom.
And so they're like do we, arewe roommates?
Like how do?
Yeah, yeah, each other right.
So yeah, talk to me about that.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Okay, which I will.
I just want to say, like, if wecan, if we can be open with
poking monogamy and seeingwhat's there a situation like
that, there are infinitepossibilities for connection.
And I think, if I think oftoxic monogamy, what it does,
and again, all this through awhite, western, colonizing
(15:36):
perspective, again aroundprivate property and the
tracking of it and it going fromgeneration to generation, like
those are the primary ways thatmarriage as we know it was
constructed in a political way,it's wild.
It's wild, right, right.
So if you, just if you start topoke that, what is?
There's so many possibilities,like there is a multiverse where
(16:01):
I wouldn't even have had to getdivorced if that felt
attainable and it did not for us, and that's okay and that's
what ended up happening.
But there are worlds thatpeople are co-creating right now
where kids live in a householdwith their parents and their
parents have their partners intheir lives and there is no
divorce process.
And it does blow open ourcreativity to co-create the
(16:26):
world we want to.
And I wanna add, I'm quite a bitof a relationship anarchist
because, as I've pulled on thisthread, I define poly as the
ability to love multiple peopleat the same time.
That's what we all do, that'swhat you do.
You are in a monogamousromantic relationship, but you,
literally you also have a hugecapacity of love we all do.
And where it gets very taboo isaround sexual partners and
(16:50):
romantic loves and because ofthe ways that that activates our
attachment systems, where wedon't know that we will be
secure.
So I do wanna point thelisteners to there isn't I wanna
make sure that I tag themcorrectly there's an amazing
creator on Instagram and on onTikTok, decolonizing Love and
(17:18):
yeah, millie and Nick and theyeducate on polyamory and how
European colonization changedhow we love and their content is
great.
They're interracial, neuro,spicy people doing poly and
teaching us so much so justwanna highlight that resource.
But many of the ways that Ihave learned to relate to people
(17:39):
through a polyamorous frameworkI apply to my relationship with
my ex-husband and his partner,which is to say that more is
possible and that we need to bedirect in our communication
around our boundaries, and sowhat we have navigated is
teamwork.
We are all a team.
My kids, they proudly say theyhave three homes Mommy's house,
(18:03):
daddy's house and Mimi andPapa's my parents' home.
And my ex-husband is still veryclose with my parents.
They are a core resource in oursurvival and in parenting the
kids and helping us that we areso fortunate not everyone has
that kind of assistant and my exand I are very different people
and part of one of the thingsthat he said to me that I hold
(18:27):
on to at the end of our marriageI caused a lot of harm at the
end, did not act in integrity,and so there was quite a repair
process ahead of us and he toldme it wasn't the harm that you
caused that taint our marriage.
It was when you told me youcouldn't be your full self in
this marriage.
And that's love, frankly.
(18:47):
Like that is the love I love.
Belle Hook's definition she justputs it into words like love is
my investment in your spiritualwellbeing, in your wholeness.
Like and that doesn't mean areligious, you know sense of
wellbeing.
It's about your integration andyour flourishing and I take
that into every partnership inmy life and that means that I
(19:09):
hold people with an open handand that kind of detachment is
not an avoid.
I'm sure it can feed avoidantpractices right.
You could fear that way and belike I'm just.
You can come in and outwhenever, I don't care.
You know like no, I care.
I care I'm invested, butultimately I have to hold all of
(19:29):
my relationships with an openhand to know that my love is an
investment in who you are andwho you are becoming, and if
that means that we will nolonger share proximity, that we
will escalate and de-escalateour relationship as needed
infinite possibilities.
But what I will say, what isnecessary is a healthy amount of
(19:53):
ego death and ego dissolution.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Ooh gosh, the ego death machine.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yes so, and part of that ego death.
So case in point with myex-husband and his partner is is
, for me, being secure in myrole as a parent in my child's
life and knowing that no otherrelationship has to threaten
that that relationships addvalue.
(20:20):
So having another loving adultin my kid's life is a beautiful
and a good thing and I think theway that we set it up at the
time both my ex-husband and I weboth had girlfriends, which was
really sweet for a period oftime, and we both met each
other's partners privately.
So I was not there when Chrismet my then-girlfriend and was
not there when I met hisgirlfriend and his partner and
(20:43):
we established relationship andbuild relationship and have
honored direct communication andboundaries have been crossed
and you don't know when yourboundaries are gonna be, crossed
, so when they are, we commit tocommunicating them.
That changes.
How often are we gathering?
Where are we gathering?
When are we gathering?
I'm playing the long game herefor intimacy and connection and
(21:06):
for the kids.
So I do think, like thepolyamory has given me the gift
of really examining my ownattachment system and
understanding when I'm trippedup and what's going on, and
being really open to expansivecreativity, that there are many
different kinds of connectionsthat are possible in
(21:27):
relationships.
Whew.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I just wanna hold that for a sec Because it's just
it's.
I really do believe that, likewhere we're going in society,
the imagination for where we'regoing is just starting to bud
and to me, if I find it reallyexciting like Ellison and I talk
(21:53):
a lot about like where thingscould possibly go they kind of
think like it's a returning tothe earth and I agree, I'm like
I think Harlem's generation isgonna create ways to, I don't
know, have oxygen somehowmanifesting out of a hologram.
It's like it's something I justfeel like the creativity and
(22:14):
the technology and theanti-racism and the
decolonization, like I think allof that stuff could come
together to create somethingbeautiful and, at the end of the
day, like this is all a lessonin imagination, like all of it
is about and it's so funnybecause this morning I still I'm
(22:35):
wearing this light jacket, butlike this morning I woke up in
it and what popped in my mindwas that passage that talks
about how there are many morethings I need to tell you, but
you can't bear them right now,which is a weird thing to think
about, because what theirteacher was telling them was
like your imagination cannotstretch to the things that I
(22:59):
could tell you are true andreality and you can't bear them.
So there's two things happening.
There's way more than we got inscripture, and so also Jesus
sets it up that there's stuffI'm gonna say beyond this right,
and so to me that feels soexciting because I haven't had a
hard time navigating newspiritual experiences,
(23:22):
navigating new language,navigating new containers and
grounding those in my past andgrounding those in my history
and grounding those and evenalmost like my container comes
with me.
Like you know, I can have aview of all of these things and
they make a complete sense to me, even given, like the past
(23:43):
worldview I held in a lot ofways, or at least the non-white
one.
So I think that this is helpfuland you're saying what I hear
you saying is like thedecolonization journey is
actually important.
Before you ever enter into thissort of sexuality and gender
journey, would you agree with?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
that?
Yes, I would.
I wanna read you a poem, Ifthat's okay, just hitting on
what you just said, and then wecan jump.
I would love to jump back moreinto that, and this is from a
German poet, no less, reinerMaria Erilke, and this is a poem
that I have rewritten manytimes and painted, and it's
(24:20):
right on my mirror, so I look atit every day, and this has been
the thesis that has carried methe last two to five years of
deconstruction and rebirth Bepatient toward all that is
unsolved in your heart and tryto love the questions themselves
, like locked rooms and likebooks that are now written in a
(24:43):
very foreign tongue.
Do not now seek the answerswhich cannot be given you
because you would not be able tolive them, and the point is to
live everything.
Live the questions now.
Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live
(25:04):
along some distant day into theanswer.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
And that'll do it in civilized way.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Give the earth Literally, and I love your tie
to Jesus' words because Jesuswas a mystic.
I think the spiritual journeyI've been on is about mysticism
and poets are mystics.
I am a poet, I am a writer andan artist, and I love the weird
ones.
I love the ones who prophesy.
(25:35):
Sometimes I wonder if John wason psychedelics when he wrote
Revelation.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah, you know the word that's used there for what
John is on and also Peter, whenPeter has Peter's vision, the
ecstasy is like where we get thephrase ecstasy.
Like they were, there wassomething else going on there
and I mean people don't talkabout it, but mandrakes and all
that kind of stuff, like thatstuff was like psychedelics,
(26:02):
like they really it wasn't.
People just don't look intothat stuff.
That's why I'm like you knowwhat?
It makes sense to me, becauseeven this is a side note, but
thinking about like spiritualpractice and stuff, like I've
started to get into crystals andall those types of things and
like, yep, I got my ring.
Oh, my goodness, you're RoseQuartz, I got Rose Quartz soon.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Cute pictures and Jesus loves us.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Indeed, and it's so funny because, like when you
read Revelation 4, right, and Ihad to memorize it when I lived
in Kansas City, you know, I wasin the Spirit on the Lord's day
and I heard a trumpet and hegoes up and he looks and he's
like and behold, I saw one.
I saw a throne and on the oneon the throne was one seated and
(26:50):
he looked like or the one thatwas seated doesn't even
genderize, the one that wassitting there looked like Jasper
and Sardias and Carnillion.
And then there's an emeraldrainbow.
I'm like he is talking aboutcrystals.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It's all connected, baby.
It is all connected.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
I'm like y'all keep trying to say that this is like
what you've kind of deduced downto why Jesus, but like he's
describing crystals, which to melike going on that journey of
understanding crystals and howthey work and what they
represent, is so interesting tome because now even that passage
has way more meaning, becausenow that I know what Jasper and
Sardias and Carnillion andemerald means, like the way that
(27:34):
they function as crystals, I'mlike yo, john is trying to tell
you so much more about theGodhead than like there's going
to be this violent uprising atthe end of days, Like this
formation here that he's seeing.
That is like all you have arewhat Lightning's thunderings,
(27:55):
voices.
You've got vibration, vibration, baby.
You've got lights and you'vegot crystals Right in Revelation
4.
I'm saying like it's reallyfunny to think about how so much
of I had to take off my shoes,I had to touch the ground.
I'm just saying like there's somany things that that we have
(28:19):
happened upon in saying you know, I'll speak for myself happened
upon in the name of leavingwhite Jesus.
It brought so much life.
Yes, and it's like, oh my God,like I don't I still haven't had
to throw away Jesus, like youknow, like not that Jesus is
throwing, but you know what Imean.
It's like, whoa, you're heretoo, you're buying this door and
(28:41):
that door and this door.
And it's like, oh my God, likewe were in a very small system.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
It was very earlier this year I worked up the
courage to do my first tarotcard reading experience and yeah
, I grew up in a castle, youknow.
You know the level of barrierto exploring any of that kind of
spirituality and on my firstpull, one of it was like an
Oracle deck with a differentmostly, I believe, hindu gods
(29:09):
and goddesses, and it talkedabout Shekinah.
And I was cracking up becauseI'm like Shekinah in this card
was about the divine feminine, avery, very powerful spirit, and
I'm all thinking about aShekinah glory and I'm like yo,
we've really like, we've reallystole this shit, yes, and
(29:29):
repackaged it, but it's, there'ssomething.
I mean Richard Rohr, you knowthis white Catholic mystic, he's
talked about it too.
He's like the more you foldinto love and suffering, the
more universal this gets.
And it's not in like a whitemiddle class unitarian
flattening way.
I don't.
It's not a coexist bumpersticker.
(29:50):
I'm not about that.
It is about distinctiveness andflavor and texture and mosaic.
But I think the culturalhumility that I'm experiencing,
as I encounter parts of thedivine that were baptized in one
form of language and I see themapparent in another culture,
like that connects me to otherhumans and other cultures into
(30:11):
the land, and, yeah, I.
So I think that that journeyand the decolonizing, so sucking
out the poison, life after 11.
To your point, like I guess, asa white person and descendant of
colonizers, I always have myI'm always looking over my
(30:33):
shoulder to be vigilant.
If there's something I want tobe hyper vigilant about, I want
to be hyper vigilant aboutrecreating whiteness wherever I
go.
So I think when it comes topolyamory and my gender journey,
I always say like I've beencoming out as trans, non binary
for about a year, but I alwayssay that my socialization as a
(30:57):
white woman will always with me.
I don't get to evolve out ofthe political role that white
women have to play and upholdingoppression and anti blackness.
So that feels very important asa white queer person that my
whiteness is the heaviest thingabout me.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
And that's just reality.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
It's like being in an AA meeting, you know.
It's like it's just beingreally sober about what I carry
in my body and what I'mcomplicit in.
So the gender expansiveness Ithink I fear that it can
sometimes be a way that whitefolks are trying to distance
ourselves from our owncomplicity in oppressive shit.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Oh man but and but and it is.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Also.
It is good to get really clearabout who you are and where you
begin and where you end, and Ifeel pretty gender expansive and
inclusive.
I think there will be a daywhere all pronouns feel fine for
me.
She, her pronouns have feltpretty like quite dysphoric for
(32:07):
a little bit, and so I've justbeen asking my community to use
they pronouns and I present itin a pretty fluid way and this
is the best way to address mefor now, because I am.
I am nothing if not committedto revision for the sake of
authenticity and people know.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
you know that though.
Yeah, like I feel like that's,that's what I've been on for and
it's like you know, justthinking about, my new
epistemology in life is honesty,oh beautiful, Just radical
honesty and just be honest, tellthe truth, like you know as
much as I know to be true, as asas I know the truth today, and
(32:45):
like I feel like that's been sohelpful because thinking about,
obviously you know my partner'stransmask and when we met they
were using a different name,they were using a different,
even presenting differently in away, and so it was like it's so
beautiful to watch someone likeyou're saying the oak inside of
someone finally have the spaceto stand and to be.
(33:08):
It's just been like it's justbeen a very beautiful thing to
watch because it's like, oh,this is you, like this is you,
and you're getting to see likesomeone become themselves, like
become who they, who they'vealways been, because they have
the safety and the permission todo that.
That's right.
It's been a really, reallybeautiful journey.
I just feel like there's thereis a ton of stuff that you can
(33:32):
talk about.
I love the idea of us.
You said something about themore you lean into love and
suffering, the more universalthis becomes, and something
about that, when you weretalking about holding your
whiteness and being cognizantabout that, and it almost feels
like, okay, so there is thesolidarity right, Because black
(33:54):
people are constantly remindedof how they live and move in a
space and so for a person to say, I understand my whiteness is
currency, the New Evangelicalsbook club yesterday like came up
with that phrase.
They were like because it.
I was like you know, I wastrying to figure out what phrase
do we use?
Do we use like technology?
Do we use property?
(34:15):
We weren't sure, but they werelike we should use currency
because it encompasses all ofthat, encompasses class.
So, thinking through all ofthose things and going, the more
you strip that, the more thingsfold into themselves and you
get to this idea of God is, allin all and all, correct, correct
(34:37):
, correct.
I mean where else are you goingto go from?
I mean you.
I mean like you know, yeah, Iknow.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I've been thinking a lot about the relationship
between the individual and thecollective and I think what I've
really had the privilege oflearning from collectivist
cultures, from indigenous folksand leaders about our collective
role and the ways thatcollectivism can obscure the
individual in ways that areharmful and the ways that
individualism can obscure thecollective in ways that are
(35:07):
harmful.
And I guess for me on thegender journey it has really
been about just understandingwhere I begin and where I end,
that I'm a, I'm a limited, um,human being, um, I.
There have always been waysthat woman, this has chafed
against something in my spiritas not quite right.
Um, and you, you, youinterrogate that right.
(35:30):
You're like, oh, is this likemy internalized misogyny?
Is this this, is it that?
And I think just coming, I meana local feminine is like one of
the most beautiful prophets inthis area.
Everything that they have tosay about gender makes me weep,
especially because they arerooted in such an abolitionist
love ethic that I don't carevery often.
Like that, they talk about thegendered world as violent and
(35:54):
the ways that it does violent tocis people and it does violence
to all of us to not be able tojust play Like I shaved all my
hair off on the spring equinoxthis year in total ritual and
ceremony.
It was witchy and Jesusy as allget out, and I had my beloveds
(36:15):
in the room with me.
Months prior I had just umended a relationship with one of
the loves of my life, who Istill love deeply first queer
relationship and I knew that Ineeded an external marker of the
internal shifts and that itwould be like a sacrament for me
(36:35):
as a mystic to sacrifice thefeminine.
Like I had some good.
I had, you know, some goodwhite girl hair, the swoopy
swoopies, and I felt very sexywith that hair and it was a
shield and it was a socializedthing.
It was a way to fawn towardspowerful people.
(36:57):
Like it in my own little whiteway.
Like shaving all my hair offhas confronted me with a lot of
isms, a lot of privilege and alot of ways that, especially in
my workplace, I'm likephysically embodying the thing
that they despise.
Like I am becoming more close toa thing that is despised and
that is so fucking powerful toexperience in your body and to
(37:21):
say, like I, I am on a journeyto the root and I need somatic,
ritual and tangible ways tomeasure that and experience that
.
And maybe this is like a littlemasochistic, but I was just
like I need to not be able tohide, and it does feel very
exposing and very horrible toplay with your gender expression
(37:44):
and to do so publicly and mykids carry grief over it.
I think all kids do Like.
I've heard stories of kids whosedads shaved their beard off and
kids are weeping.
They're like Daddy, no, youknow.
Like kids feel safety andsecurity and a consistent sense
of their parent.
And my kids are like, when isyour hair going to grow back?
(38:05):
We miss this version of you andI have to believe that I am
modeling for them something,something courageous, that it is
okay.
It is okay to take these thingson in your body and it's okay
to play and to figure out whoyou are and, yeah, they in that.
(38:28):
And I think it's important totalk about the kids in this
journey and I this is only oneperspective on like, as they get
older they'll tell their ownstories, but they in their
little lives have had to makeroom in their worldview for a
lot of different possibilities.
You know and they hop to in away that's very interesting.
(38:52):
My four year old was like it'sreally cool that we call you mom
E, because it has your name init E mom.
E you know, like they just findcreative ways to connect with
me in the way that I am sharingmyself with them, and I was.
They had gotten me a Mother'sDay book with from Bluey that is
about Bluey's mom and you knowshe her pronouns through the
(39:14):
whole book and Parker was likecorrecting the pronouns as we
went.
He's like, well, for you, itwould be that they get on the
floor and play with me.
I like never do, but you know Iwas like, oh, that's amazing.
So just these little flexiblepeople that teach me a lot
no-transcript.
I think my kids in this time inmy life are teaching me a lot
period.
The way that they move throughtheir emotions and then snap
(39:35):
back.
They're just like, yeah, thatwas a feeling that was brutal.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
I'm good now, like yeah, yeah, we're doing that
with Harlem the attachment styleparenting and gentle parenting,
and it's.
It's really incredible to watchsomeone feel they live in a
house where there is no shameallowed, you know, and to see
(39:58):
the level of confidence and likejust life that she lives with
when she goes out of our house.
I mean, harlem is a life forceLike there's no other way to
describe her she it's likeraising a bonfire, you know,
like she is fire and and I loveit and she's.
(40:19):
She's thoughtful and deep andcourageous and emotional and
loud and she just all of thesethings to just watch like and
you kind of, as a parent, you'relike you're witnessing
something very holy, in myopinion.
I'm witnessing a person becomethemself on a number of levels
(40:40):
in our house and thinking abouthow she corrects everybody.
My nobi is not a she, it's they,and it's just like duh, like,
and it's been so interesting towatch her respond to all of this
stuff and be like it's not thatbig of a deal for her Hop to
hop to, it's just like no,they're they.
And like the things that she'sbeen exposed to at her age and
(41:04):
like all of Ellison's likechosen family, is deaf or hard
of hearing, or or went toGallaudet and then on top of
that, they're all.
Most of them are all queer.
So all Harlem is around isconversations about access,
conversations about queerness,conversations about different
ways of doing spirituality andlife, and it's just been such a
(41:26):
beautiful thing to just watch.
It's magical.
It is magical.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
You know, and look at like frankly, look at you in
the middle of that ecosystem,like, and your countenance, I
think the things that have beenshed like literally, like when I
think of you, I think of thisto this, which I don't know if
the listeners are not gonna seethat, but I'm just like
contorting, kind of like a cat.
Cat contorting my body inwardand then exhaling outward, and
(41:55):
that, I think, was the point Iwas making a little bit back is,
when you start decolonizing,you understand that my role as
an individual in the collectiveis to have a clear sense of who
I am and to fully embody that,that that is loving to my
community.
And then I communicate myboundaries and my needs and mute
(42:16):
and we then are tied in a webof mutual care and connection
with each other and everyonedeserves that.
Everyone deserves that selfdetermination and that agency.
And it's not and I think wherewhiteness got it so wrong was
like we're just going toprioritize these people being
able to live and move and havetheir being at the expense and
(42:37):
exploitation of everyone else,and that's wrong, it's so wrong.
So, yeah, just the I.
So I think the secure, thesecure self in a white body is
to say I do take up space, but Itake up a very particular
amount of space.
Like I don't self flagellateright False humility and try to
(42:58):
contort myself to somehow atone.
I do repair and make reparationand I do take up the space that
I take up and it's exactly thismuch so that you can also have
exactly this much, you know andeveryone can embody what we're
meant to be.
There's this kind of readanother poem Sorry, I'm full.
Of course.
This is from Audrey Lord.
(43:20):
Oh, yeah, and it is when shewas pregnant with her daughter.
I'm sorry if it takes me amoment to pull it.
Yeah, it's called now that I amforever with child and Audrey
(43:44):
Lord what a saint right.
Saint like.
I yeah, when I it's.
It can be hard as a whiteperson to find good ancestors
and I don't.
I don't get to claim Audrey asmy ancestor, but as someone who
mentors me, absolutely who I getto look at and learn from.
So this is, this is her poem,now that I am forever with child
(44:08):
.
How the days went while youwere blooming within me.
I remember, each upon each, theswelling, changed planes of my
body and how you first fluttered, then jumped and I thought it
was my heart.
How the days wound down and theturning of winter.
(44:28):
I recall, with you growingheavy against the wind, I
thought.
Now her hands are formed andher hair has started to curl.
Now her teeth are done, now shesneezes.
Then the seed opened and I boreyou one morning, just before
spring, my head rang like afiery piston.
(44:50):
My legs were towers betweenwhich a new world was passing.
Since then, I can onlydistinguish one thread within
running hours you flowingthrough selves toward you.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Hmm, Well say la my God, my God Wow.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
There's a beautiful biographical book that I'm
reading about people who areparents, mostly cis women who
are mothers, but it includesessays on Audrey Lord and Alice
Walker and how most of them werepoly navigating their
creativity, their parenting,their sex lives and romantic
(45:40):
lives, and their wholeness inthe freaking 40s and 50s, like,
yes, you know, like in thatbackdrop and that poem you
running, like through selves, toyou feels like such good
medicine for the, for theseevolutions.
(46:01):
You know and what we're talkingabout.
And for me, that's the genderjourney, that's exploring
polyamory, it's queerness, it'svocation, you know, and it's
finding my place in the familyof things.
It's finding that I have a rolein the collective, and it's not
always about me.
I get to participate in otherpeople's stories and it's a
(46:24):
beautiful thing.
It's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
And you are a beautiful person.
I love talking to you and thereare like so many things we
could talk about.
Like it's, you'll be back,you'll probably be regular, so I
love it.
Thank you for this vestige ofwisdom.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
It's so good to be with you.
Love you, friend.
I love you.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Thank you for listening.
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Inc and clear the path for blackstudents today.
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