November 2, 2023 • 50 mins
Join us for an engaging and enlightening conversation with Brian G Murphy and Father Shannon T L Kearns from Queer Theology - the brave souls on a mission to make queer theology and queer sacred storytelling available to all. We journey into the intersection of queerness and spirituality, providing not only a healing balm but also a potent platform for activism. You'll discover how understanding scriptures through a queer lens can be transformative and learn about the pivotal role our identities play in interpreting these sacred texts.
Venture with us as we traverse the diverse landscapes of faith and identity within Christianity. Alongside Brian and Father Shannon, we'll learn from black, womanist, and trans theology insights, emphasizing the significance of embracing Christianity in its entirety, complexity, and liberating ourselves from limiting frameworks. Hear firsthand about their personal conversion stories and how their queer identities have widened the realm of possibilities within Christianity.
As our conversation deepens, we address why some queer individuals choose to stay within Christianity, and the ways to do so that foster health, wholeness, and life. Unveiling the enduring power of the Jesus story, the tenacity of claiming tradition, and the importance of a spiritual practice, we hope to inspire. As we express our gratitude and promote learning, we reflect on the connections we make, and the role money plays in our lives. Join us on this inspiring exploration, and come away with new perspectives and a strengthened faith.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
From the other side of toxic Christianity.
I found myself faced with onequestion Now what this podcast
is about that question?
We have conversations withfolks who are asking themselves
the same things.
We're picking up the pieces ofa fractured and fragmented faith
.
We're finding treasure in whatthe church called trash, beauty
(00:21):
and solidarity in people andplaces we were told to fear,
reject and dismiss.
I'm Tamise Spencer-Helms andthis is Life After Leaven.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
What's up everybody.
Welcome back to this episode ofLife After Leaven.
I'm your sick host, tamiseSpencer-Helms, and I'm joined by
the team at Queer Theology andI know I've talked a lot about
them when we've done book stuffand I'm so excited to have them
on the show.
Brian and Shay, I'm going tohave you introduce yourselves
and then tell us who you are andwhat you do.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
for those who don't know you, Sure, my name is Brian
G Murphy, he, him or they thenpronounce both fuel great for me
.
I am Jewish, I'm a queer sacredstoryteller, I am bisexual, I am
polyamorous and for the past 10years I've been working with
(01:16):
Shay, with Father Shannon,queertheologycom, to do two
things really, sort of like makethe beauty that is queer
theology and queer sacredstorytelling and the sort of the
sort of like new insights tothe behind the happen when you
fuse queerness and theologytogether accessible to everyone.
(01:36):
And then also to teach folkshow to do their own queer
theologizing, even if they'rejust, you know, quote, unquote,
like regular folks at home, notnot pastors, not theolog, not,
like you know, officialtheologians, not academics, but
like.
I think there's power ineveryone.
Telling their story andclaiming their story, both in a
(02:00):
healing sort of way, can be veryhealing process for folks, but
it also can be a source of likebeing prophetic and activism,
moving conversation forward.
It's both looking backwards andlooking forwards to sort of
like harness the intersectionsof queerness and spirituality
and story.
Wow, that's my elevator pitch.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
It's beautiful, father Shannon.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
So I'm Father Shannon T L Kearns I use he him his
pronouns.
I am a writer and a theologianand a storyteller as well and,
yeah, like Brian said, we'vebeen doing this for for 10 years
and I think that you know the.
The goal of this was alwaysabout creating a movement, right
(02:44):
, and it was always about beingcontent creators or providing
resources, necessarily for folks, but it was really about, like,
building a movement of queerand trans people who could?
really integrate queerness andtransness and spirituality and,
like Brian said, really move theconversation forward in both an
(03:08):
activist spirit but also in atheological spirit.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, oh, man, and like you said, you've, you guys
have been going for 10 years andI'm using guys in the
proverbial sense, but you soyou've been doing this, you know
, 10 years and I really was.
So a lot of my listeners ifyou've been listening to any of
the stuff I've done for the book, you know that when I first
came out, I Googled queertheology and you all popped up
(03:38):
because both things well, onewas new to me, the other one
wasn't.
I had always considered myselfa theologian, love theological
study, love studying religionsand things like that, and didn't
know if I could fuse those twothings together, like fully be
myself and also love digginginto things like that.
And so this was the firstorganization I found.
(03:58):
When I, when I came out, it waslike the a day later when I was
thinking about how can I live aqueer life and also stay
connected to something thatbrings me life, which is the
study of theology.
So I'm wondering can you tellus a story?
How did you get started andwhere are you now, after 10
years?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Yeah.
So I mean the.
The story of the website iskind of funny in that you know
Brian and I were on a probably aSkype call at that point maybe
Google hangouts this before zoomand you know we would.
We would get on a call, youknow, once a week just to kind
of talk and and to be incommunity and to talk about
(04:40):
creativity and spirituality, andwe're both watching the
conversations that werehappening in the Christian space
in particular at that time andfrustrated frustrated that it
seemed to be really stuck inlike is it okay to be LGBTQ plus
and Christian?
And like we weren't eventalking at that point about like
(05:02):
and what does that look like,if it is okay?
It was really just like, is itokay?
And both of us have been deeplymoved by the work of queer
theologians but found that workto be often really inaccessible.
It's very very academic andheady and hard to read.
And one night on one of thosecalls I was like I wonder who
(05:24):
owns the domain queertheologycom.
And we Google and realize thatno one had it.
And so we were like, oh, okay,well, we need to get that right
now.
And so we really bought itwithout a sense of what we were
going to do with it, but justfelt like this, we need to have
this domain and figure out whatthere was something there, yeah,
(05:47):
and so we started then a couplemonths later by doing a course
on Google Hangouts with people,because you could only have 10
and we work two people to doreading queery, which was like
what happens when we read theBible from a queer perspective,
(06:08):
and the energy and that Google'sroom was so good, we were like
oh, this is this is the work.
It's not about like is it okayto be queer and Christian or
trans and Christian?
It's not even like well, how dowe work to get people to let us
into their churches?
It's like no, we have goodnessand richness right here amongst
(06:32):
us Right now as we're reading,and like this is can be
transformative for us and forthe church and for the world.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Wow, yeah, how did you all meet?
How did you all get connected?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
We met through a friend of a like.
We had a mutual like bestfriend in common when we were
all the three of us living inNew York and so our friend Micah
like, introduced us like atsome group hangs a few times,
shake him over to my apartment.
I went over, I was like I sawhim preach for the first time.
I remember the first time I sawhim preach I was like not his
(07:06):
first time preaching, it was myfirst time seeing him preach but
I remember like I was likeseeing him preach and being like
oh man, this is like really,really cool.
You know a lot of like a lot ofpastors when they preach it
sort of like their version oflike something that like they
heard someone else tell which islike, which they like run a
(07:27):
book, which like, and the personwith the book heard from
someone else, right, so it'slike.
But I was like it's kind oflike remix theology where I was
like.
Oh, she is like creating likebrand new theology in front of
my eyes.
This is wild.
I want more of this.
I want to do this myself.
This is so powerful.
And so then we just like kindof became friends and Shane
(07:47):
moved to Minnesota and so wekind of kept in touch loosely
and then probably startedtexting more and emailing more
and ranting more about the stateof like LGBT Christian down and
then started, like she wassaying, meeting up on zoom, yeah
, just sort of like.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Huh, so 10 years ago.
Okay, I want you to describe 10years ago what was the state of
LGBTQ plus Christendom, andwhat is it like now?
What would you say has been themajor change?
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Yeah, it's so funny that you asked that, because so
for our podcast we just inviteda bunch of people to like record
little messages reflecting backon what it was like for them
personally 10 years ago and alsosort of like where the movement
was 10 years ago.
I think like 10 years ago theprevailing conversation was is
it okay to be LGBTQ andChristian?
(08:40):
The primary concern for thoseof folks, just the fact that
there was a debate at all, likethe great debate site A versus
site.
B.
The whole thing was likedebating.
Getting like gays to debateamongst themselves was like
which one was right, Just messyright, and then even amongst
people who were like it's okayto be gay.
(09:01):
The primary concern was likegetting let into majority
straight, straight runinstitutional churches and sort
of like conforming, like tryingto like keep everything the same
but just like a lot likewhatever, like gay and also that
right.
So like there's sort of likediscussion around purity culture
(09:22):
.
Deconstruction was juststarting to happen.
We get one of our earlywebinars.
We had Lola on who does a lotof work on pretty culture.
You know the idea of like beingsex positive and Christian was
like pretty fringe.
No one was talking aboutpolyamory until we started
(09:43):
talking about it.
If you use them to the project,the trans really talking about
trans stuff?
Yeah, it was like an add on oran afterthought, like it was
really like LGBT focused, reallyfocused on sort of like acting
on your homosexuality and likewhether or not that is okay, and
(10:04):
and so yes, that was, that was10 years ago.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Oh my goodness.
So no conversations about trans, really kind of pitting
different views of the Ihesitate to say issue, but side
a, side B conversation.
And now, where are we now?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I mean access, and also 10 years ago, like access
international still exists, likepeople were, like it was, like
said a side.
B side X like side B wassupposed to be like the
compassionate thing.
That was like better thantherapy.
People are still going to XPtherapy, and maybe a few hours
today, but like it was just likea different, such a different
world.
Not really no conversationsaround trans folks or bisexual
(10:45):
folks, but it was.
You know, bisexuality and somuch as it is like you are
oppressed by homophobia and liketransgender and so much as like
well, like you seem kind of gay, like like it's just some sort
of like right.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
I think I'm going to name the podcast that I think we
also need to remember like thisis before you could get married
in the United States.
Wow, and you know this is inmany, in a lot of places.
This was like before you couldget ordained as an openly LGBTQ
plus person in many, manytraditions not all of them, but
(11:28):
like in a lot, most probably,yeah.
And even if you could like, theodds of you getting hired in a
church were slim to none.
When I went to seminary andstarting in 2006, I was only the
second out trans person to liketransition in my seminary,
(11:48):
right.
So like this is, this is I wastalking to someone the other day
who's like yeah, like almost myentire class is like queer and
trans and seminary.
Yeah, like we are in a, we arein a radically different place
and I think that, like now, aswe look at the conversation, you
know there are still peoplethat are trying to debate side a
and side b or claim celibacy orwhatever, but like that is not
(12:12):
the forefront of what we'retalking about.
Like what does it look like towelcome polyamorous families
into our communities?
What does it look like forclergy to be openly polyamorous?
What does it look like to, youknow, really like center queer
and trans voices and folks?
It's not about like come to ourstraight church and be the
(12:35):
token.
It's about what does?
it look like to have a communitythat is, like, centered on your
experiences.
That straightens this.
Folks are welcome to join.
And also it feels important toalso say that, like since the
2016 election and having folks,you know, jumping ship on
(12:56):
evangelicalism in greaternumbers than ever before, indeed
a circling back to some of theconversations that we were
talking about 10 years ago andso this is also like
encouragement for folks that aremaybe new to this conversation
or just entering in to reallypay attention to the work that's
been done at theseconversations and happening for
(13:16):
a really long time, and thatthere you might find a lot more
movement and joy and freedom byjumping out of some of the
conversations you're in andjumping ahead right.
That that we don't need torehash side a, side b.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Please, let's not do that again.
Moving on, moving on.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
I love.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Okay, so here's what I want to do.
Okay, Brian, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I think it's like so much more interesting to focus
on the gifts that queer peoplebring and that queerness brings
rather than sort of being inthis defensive posture and I
think it also allows more roomfor like exploring and
celebrating our various like,for instance, I'm bisexual,
right, and so when we focus onlike my oppression, I'm like
primarily oppressed on like theaxis of like my quote unquote.
(14:06):
Like gay sex right.
Like homophobes don't reallycare if I'm married to a woman,
they care if I'm married to aman right and so like debating
on those terms.
Like limits my identity because,like LGBT oppression that I
experienced is like homophobia,right, but like when I get to
say like, but that's like notall of me, though.
And like what does it look liketo be attracted to like
(14:28):
multiple, multiple genders?
And how does the experience oflike being in gay spaces but not
like totally gay and instraight spaces but not totally
straight, like?
What is that like?
What's your like nuance?
Like might I bring to theconversation?
Or like when we're not justsort of stuck on like it's okay
to be gay, like how does sex,you know, impact our theology?
(14:50):
What is like like?
What's the theology of likehooking up, and how does that
like translate into welcomeright, how people taken, you
know, taking care of one another, how have like lesbians taking
care of gay men's, and howbisexuals and trans folks been
historic allies and bridgebuilding.
And how does like race andgender and immigration status
and should be sad as all sort oflike intersect, like it all.
(15:12):
It's just like such a morericher, full, I think, both more
human and also more divineconversation then.
Like yeah, can I please come toyour church.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, I do feel like we've definitely moved on from
that question I can't I can'timagine there being churches, or
I mean, they're up.
Let me rephrase that there aredefinitely churches that are
still anti, but I'm like at thispoint, are you all serious?
It's just, it's 2023.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Like I, just feel the gospel is not there, right,
like you're there, like I don'twant to go to that.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, there is like like you're saying like humanity
is not represented here andit's kind of like you know, I
was talking to someone one timeand I'm like you know you talk
about the church being thisplace of community and stuff
like that, but like hardlyanybody in your zip code could
come into your house for onereason or another, whether it be
that they're queer, whether itbe that they're queer, they're
(16:06):
fornicators, they're on drugslike all of these things like we
talk about the church beingthis open space, but it but it
really isn't.
And I really found, like I foundyour theology in particular,
father Shannon, to be reallyhelpful, as I was kind of
figuring out how do I kind oflook at some passages that used
to mean things to me, that usedto move me, that like moved me
(16:31):
in very, very profound ways, butnot knowing exactly how to how
to kind of embrace thosepassages, and it took me a
really long time even to getback into scripture, took years
for me to even like want to openscripture again.
Can you talk to us about whatit's like to get back into that
place and what does it mean tohave queer perspective?
You said a queer theology orqueer theological perspective.
(16:54):
For folks that don't know whatthat is, what is that?
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Yeah, I think for many of us, especially who grew
up in maybe more conservative orevangelical traditions,
denominations, many of usthought that we were really
studying the Bible becausethat's what we were taught right
that if you read the Bible alot, if you go to Bible studies,
if you go and listen to yourpastor and preaching that, you
(17:21):
are doing deep Bible study andthat is like true-ish right In
that you know a lot about whatis in the Bible but you don't
actually have any tools tounderstand that outside of, like
your evangelical, conservativeteaching.
And so one of the things thathas been really important for me
(17:45):
is to make scholarly tools forreading and understanding
scripture accessible to folks,Because a lot of folks feel like
you have to either, like you dothat deep evangelical Bible
study or you like have to go toseminary, that there's no middle
ground and it's actuallypossible to get a lot of
(18:07):
scholarly information withoutgoing to seminary and without
like reading heavy tomes aboutbiblical studies.
But you do have to actuallylearn some things about like
historical context of scriptureand the context of empire and
exile, for instance.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
And also which resources to trust and which
resources not to trust.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Exactly exactly.
Just Google and like trust thefirst thing that comes up right,
which is the other way thatpeople were taught to study the
Bible, right?
We got a hate comment onTwitter the other day that was
like linked toBiblestudytoolsorg, and I wanted
to be like if you are linkingme to Biblestudytoolsorg A,
(18:50):
these are not like actual Biblestudy tools and.
B think you haven't done yourwork, Like this is not they were
claiming that they had donelots of research.
Anyway, I think that, likethere's that piece of like
learning some of the ways thatscholars read scripture, that is
really important, and then thesecond piece of that is that
(19:11):
many of us have been taught thatwe somehow corrupt the text,
that by bringing our full selvesto the text, that we are doing
it dishonestly, that we are justreading into the things that we
want to hear, or that thinkingthe text say what we want it to
say, but like the truth is thatwe all read from a particular
(19:35):
context.
It's just that queer and transfolks and black folks and Latinx
folks, like we name the placethat we're doing.
the reading from and we'resaying actually it matters that
we do theology from thisparticular place and that none
of us are doing theology from aneutral place, and so queer
(19:56):
theology is just naming like weare reading the scripture as
queer folks.
We are reading the scripture astrans folks.
For me, it's also important toname that like I read scripture
as a white trans man from theUnited States.
I cannot divorce my identityand the context I live in from
how I'm interpreting scripture,and that's why it's so important
(20:17):
that I never read scripturealone, right, that I'm always
studying it While also readingwomanist theology and black
theology and theology written bypeople that are not from the
United States, so that I amgetting a fuller sense of what
these texts mean, what theycould mean.
And I think that somethingreally powerful happens when we
(20:38):
put all of our identities andall of our ways of reading
scripture together.
And we also need the old whiteguys from Europe Like that.
That's important.
Some of them are right, some ofthem are right and they helped
us get where we are for good andfor ill.
And so we have to understandthat, but like we have to do
this work and it's morecomplicated, right Then picking
(21:01):
up and opening the Bible andlike pointing to a verse and
saying this is gonna be theverse that's gonna speak to me
today, yeah, and also it's muchmore beautiful and rich and, I
think, leaves us less at risk ofreading something that's really
gonna wreck us because we don'tunderstand the context that it
comes from.
(21:22):
We've had these experiencesright Of being quote unquote
convicted by something, yes, butit's because we're reading
something that was neveractually meant for us or it was
not meant in this way and like.
So it's important.
It does less damage to read itin this way too.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Well, I think yeah.
That's okay, good, no, do youhave anything to add?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, yeah, I see this journey that folks go on.
They sort of like when you'releaving reading scripture in a
conservative way, whether that'sconservative, protestant,
specifically evangelical also,like Catholic also, orthodox
Also.
Sometimes you go to like aliberal mainline church but like
they didn't teach you how toread the Bible particularly well
(22:04):
, or maybe you've just sort ofabsorbed the evangelical way of
reading it through culture.
And so lots of folks haveevangelical understandings of
the Bible without beingevangelicals themselves.
So that's just like a pin inthat.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
That is so good.
Say that again.
You gotta say that again, Brian.
I think you gotta say that.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Lots of folks have evangelical readings of the
Bible without the evangelicalsthemselves, because evangelical
Christianity has so dominatedthe narrative around what
Christianity is in general andwhat the Bible is in particular
that folks, those are the onlytools folks have and they're
just like what they've absorbedwithout thinking, without
(22:41):
realizing their osmosis.
They don't know thealternatives are out there.
So, like the number of times wemeet people at progressive,
liberal, mainline Protestantchurches that like don't realize
lots of people think that theflood was a myth, that like
think that penal substitutionarytorment, which is like God is
angry at you for sitting in, soJesus had to die in your place,
(23:02):
is like the only way ofunderstanding what happened like
on the cross and how salvationhappens.
Right, that's like us too bigand common, too big to a big,
common example.
Right, we see this progressionof like your.
So you first you're reading theBible in a conservative way and
then, for whatever reason, likethat stops working for you.
Maybe it's because you realizeyou're queer, maybe because
(23:22):
you're like a black person or awoman in America.
I'm like Donald Trump becomespresident, you're like holy shit
, right, and so there's.
I think the first step is likethe Bible is still right, but I
don't like it and I am rejectingit, but it's.
But I still can't like let go ofthe idea that, like the
conservative understanding ofthe Bible is correct, but I'm
(23:44):
just like angry at it.
And then like the next step, Ithink, is that people are like
the Bible is wrong, or like fuckPaul.
Or like I want to get, I wantto be a Jesus follower, not a
Christian right, and so there'ssort of like like cutting and
pasting parts of the Bible andparts of the Christian tradition
, which I think is notinherently a bad or a wrong
(24:07):
thing.
But I think that there's likethis really, if you can push
through that and break on to thenext level, you get to a place
where, like the whole Bible andall of Christianity and all of
its mess is like beautiful andavailable to you.
And so I think about like I cantrack the journey for me with
like Romans one, romans oneneeds to be scary.
(24:28):
Then I was like Romans onedoesn't count.
And now I'm like I love Romansone.
I could preach a queer sermonon Romans one and Romans two
Right.
And so, like the things that you, there's a.
I think there's a period oftime after folks have like come
out of conservative Christianity, where parts of the Bible or
parts of theology or parts offaith still feel scary or
(24:49):
prickly.
I'm like, maybe most of thetime you feel not scared and you
don't feel unsafe, but it'slike but I can't open that door
or I can't get too close to that, and we found that that still
is giving this like, even ifyou're all conservative, like
for your base base, like eveneven that is too much power if
you have to avoid it.
(25:10):
And so there's like not apassage in the Bible Christian,
or are you not afraid to be like, yeah, give me that and I can
like wrestle, I can wrestle withit, and that is part of the
process, and when you get tothere like anything, fucking
freedom.
Anything is possible.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, like I'm glad that you took me there.
I'm sorry Like I keep alwayscutting you off, cause I get
excited when I hear you talk,but this is beautiful because
you led me right where I wantedto go.
On the internet, the interwebs,I made a comment that got some
people in my DMs and I said youknow, I'm wearing a light jacket
called Christianity, and whenit gets uncomfortable or too hot
(25:49):
or too cold in here I just takethe thing off.
So I got a lot of commentsabout that.
But I wanted to ask you cause Iknow, brian, you did you
recently convert to Judaism?
Were you always Jewish Ifinally.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
So I grew up evangelical.
Well, I grew up Christian goingto the evangelical church.
I was sort of had like one footin the evangelical Christian
world and one foot in like thesecular world in Maryland.
Okay, but I it's been like amulti-year process that I
recently finalized maybe, but bythe time this episode comes out
, like half a year ago maybe.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Wow, yeah.
So what I'm going to ask you isand Fr Shana, are you still,
you're still identifying as aChristian?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
I am, oh he's all, in All in.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
They're going to have to write it from my cold dead
hand, cold dead hands, oreternally court consciousness?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
no, just kidding, definitely kidding.
So I was thinking what do we do?
There are some folks who arelike I still love Jesus, don't
know about the Jesus is Godthing.
There are people who are likeeven if Jesus is God, I don't
care, I don't want to be aChristian anymore.
There are people who are likeno, jesus is real.
(26:58):
I've had experience, but Idon't want to come near
Christianity with a 10 foot pole.
And other people are like Idon't believe in anything.
Others are like I don't knowanything, I'm just going to try
to be a good human.
Can you all talk to me aboutwhat led to first you, brian,
what led to your conversion, andthen, in Father Shannon, what
caused you to stay?
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yeah, so I think that I will start with.
I think that if you're queerand Christianity is important to
you, or like was important toyou and you want to continue
being important to you, I likebelieve that there is like an
important place in the churchfor you, and I might have like
converted to Judaism and likeofficially left Christianity,
(27:40):
but I'm still like right therein the trenches alongside of
y'all fighting for your placeand your voice and your mission
because it is like so Necessaryand I learned something about
the time through quick questionsand stuff.
Right, I think that one of thenice things about sort of like
doing this work with Shae for solong I learned in the past few
(28:02):
years as part of this process inJudaism is thing called a
Huffruta partner and it's likeyou have like one person, but
there's like it's a pair usuallyand you sort of like study
Torah, study Tom, literally talkabout theology together, and I
was like oh.
Shayla and doing that for 10.
But like, but so, and sort ofdoing it together in public
means that like for the entiretyof the curriculum has existed.
(28:22):
I've been like I don't know ifI count as a Christian, I don't
know if I believe in God MaybeI'm an atheist and she has
always been like if you want tobe Christian, like you're
Christian enough for me, right,and where she is like she is up,
like was in seminary and thenlike then working at churches,
now like an ordained priest,right, and so you kind of get
(28:42):
like this full spectrum ofbelief from ordained priests,
like kind of sort of Christianatheist, kind of agnostic, but
now Jewish, right, you also havea whole spectrum of like.
When we started, shae wascelibate.
Now he's an agonist.
I'm Paul Gamers and like apeople's spot, right, so there's
just like a wide all points inbetween sort of our possible.
(29:05):
I think that, like there's somany ways to be a Christian in
particular, and so I don't feellike I left Christianity because
my beliefs made it not possiblefor me to stay a Christian
right.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Like.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
I think that you can believe in, you can be a
Christian and have likequestions about the like, the
exact nature of like, jesus'sdivinity, right, like was he
always?
Speaker 4 (29:30):
God.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Is he God Like?
Is that a theological claim?
But he's like really God like.
How did his?
How did he understand himselfversus how did his like the
scripture?
I don't understand him.
Versus the Holy Church, versusus today, right, like there's
lots of different ways to be aChristian and that's coming just
on Jesus, quote unquote, asdivine right and so like, if
(29:54):
you're like I think that I wantto be a Christian, but I'm like
not sure if I can be quoteunquote because X, y, z, like do
some time really examining,like is that actually a just
qualifying thing for?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
you.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Like I think if you were, like I want to be a
Christian except, but like Iwant to be like a total asshole
and scorch the earth, and like Ialso believe in, like a
different God, like in mybedroom, like I don't know,
maybe that's not, maybeChristianity isn't for you, but
like.
So, like I think there are some, I think there are some women
to how big the tent can be, butit's a pretty frickin big tent
(30:34):
and so, and I have found thatwhen I was a Christian, like
queerness, like only enriched myfaith and like led me deeper
into faith, and I don't know ifI would have become Jewish had I
not gotten back into faith andlike reclaim my faith and not
(30:54):
been as scared of like sort oflike, made peace with being a
queer.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Christian.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
I was like I did this , that I can kind of move on my
journey to Judaism.
I was telling in the rabbiniccourt it's like two years or two
decades in the making, rightLike I, I I'm.
One of my earliest memories ismaking latkes.
I have always had a lot ofJewish friends in my sort of
(31:20):
like inner circle.
Many or most of my closefriends have been Jewish.
My first boyfriend was Jewish.
Like when I came out and myparents are being weird like two
, two friends, parents inparticular were like really sort
of like.
So I get parents to me theywere Jewish.
I grew up in a very Jewish area.
So like I went to a bar aboutMitzvah at least one every
(31:42):
weekend and all seventh grade,sometimes two or three Right so
I knew a lot of the prayers byheart.
In addition, in addition toChristianity sort of like
springing off of Judaism and sotherefore feeling familiar to a
lot of Christians, regardless oftheir exposure to like actual
modern day Judaism.
I also had a lot of exposure toactual practicing modern day
(32:04):
Judaism and so it has alwayssort of felt like a second home
to me that I had been curiousabout, like maybe I could make
that my permanent home, but Ihad like some own hangups around
, like what it means to convertto Judaism that I had to deal
(32:25):
with and I think also just likethis sense of unfinished
business within Christianity, Ididn't want to be like running
away from Christianity, right.
I wanted to make sure that I waslike running towards something
and so like I think that like ifJudaism didn't exist, like
heaven forbid, right.
Like I, like I think I couldhave been a Christian for my
(32:47):
whole life, right.
And also Judaism just felt likefor me personally, like on a
day to day practices and justlike communal gatherings
situation, like more like who Ifeel I am called to be, but like
I don't necessarily think thatis the path for everyone.
(33:08):
I don't think anyone needs tobecome Jewish right.
Like we don't, we don'tproselytize, like I don't think
that everyone needs to be Jewish.
I just like, as a person, likeyou don't have to become Jewish,
you can be Christian.
You can be not Christian, but Ido think that if you were
raised Christian like whateveryou decide to be spiritually if
(33:30):
you can do that from a place ofpower and freedom rather than
from a place of, like, fear andreactivity, you're going to be
your much better for you ingeneral, because there are a lot
of people also who are nolonger Christian but are still
scared of the God they don'tbelieve in.
Right, right, come on.
That's good, that doesn't.
(33:50):
That doesn't help anyone either, so like.
So one of the things that wefeel really passionate about is
like we want to help.
If you're a queer person whowas raised Christian and
Christianity is important to you, we want to help you, sort of
like, have the most vibrantqueer Christian faith that you
possibly can.
And for whatever reasonChristianity is, like, not a
good fit for you.
We want to help you leave well,we want to help you leave
(34:10):
healthfully.
We want to help you leave fully, so that you can go on and
thrive wherever you are, becauseit, like you, deserve so much
more than sort of like kind ofleaving but still being having
you put in the door, or kind ofleaving but still being scared
or triggered or reactive all thetime.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
You just like, want like freedom for all queer
people everywhere.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Well, Shay, I saw you .
I saw you nodding your headthat even if people want to
leave Christianity, you want tomake sure that people leave it.
Well, like what's making youstay?
Why are you still a Christian?
Speaker 4 (34:41):
Yeah, I mean, I think for me there's a.
There's a couple reasons, right.
One is that I am still verymuch captivated by the Jesus
story, right, that there issomething so deeply beautiful in
that story for me and in theways that Christians have
wrestled with and understoodthat story over millennia, and
(35:04):
so that is really that'simportant to me.
I find I find continued meaningin Christian practices and
Christian scripture andChristian stories.
So that's part of it.
Part of it is stubbornness of.
There is a sense of like.
You are not going to tell methat I cannot claim this
tradition because, whatever,that this is mine to, and that I
(35:28):
get to choose to be a part ofit.
And then, finally, I think it'sa sense of like I.
My life has been so deeply andradically impacted by
Christianity.
Right, childhood was centeredin the church.
My family history and storiesare stories of evangelical
(35:50):
Christianity.
The United States, for betteror for worse, has been shaped by
evangelical Christianity, likeindeed.
And so for me there's also apart of like.
I have to make sense of thistradition.
I have to really do the work tofigure it out, and I know that
for some people, doing that workmeans that they're like out
(36:12):
right, like I do not believe anyof this anymore and like full
again, like Brian said, fully,fully support that journey.
It's like this.
This, this story has been such aguiding principle in my life
that, like what I want to do isfigure out how to do it well and
how to do it, but I also wantto, I want to echo some of the
(36:35):
things that Brian said, becauseI think that they're so
important to say them twiceRight, which is that if you are
simply staying in Christianitybecause you're afraid, because
you're afraid of going to hell,because you're afraid that God
is going to smite you, like it'stime, because you're afraid of
your parents, like right, likefear is not a good reason to
(36:56):
stay.
And also like, if you areleaving but like you haven't
actually done the work to unpackhow this tradition has shaped
you and formed you, what it isthat you're leaving behind.
What we've seen over and overagain is people who have left
(37:16):
and then replicated evangelicalChristianity and whatever thing
that they've left to go towardsright, whether that's like
they've converted but like notreally.
Or they're an atheist but nowthey're an evangelical atheist
who's trying to get everyoneelse to sign on to the atheist
train, like the amount ofevangelical atheists we have had
(37:38):
.
I'm after.
Oh, my God, I'm like man.
Go in peace.
But like I have done my work, Ineed you to write.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
The sense of like.
Whatever tradition you're in,we I think both Brian and I
fully believe that you need somekind of practice.
We would call it.
Spiritual practice doesn'tnecessarily have to be.
You need some kind of practicethat roots your life.
You need some kind of communitythat centers, you need tools
(38:16):
that you can turn to before andduring and when things are hard.
Right, we believe that that'slike a universal.
Whatever tradition you findyourself in like, let that be a
tradition that is leadingtowards health and wholeness and
integration.
That is giving you more life,not less.
(38:37):
That is leading you in freedom,not fear.
That is operating from a placeof abundance, not scarcity.
That is the journey that wewant people to be on and we're
neither of us are really tied tolike what that looks like, we
just want help you get free.
And so if you come to us andyou say, and you do some work
(38:59):
and you're like actually likenow that I'm afraid of hell, I
don't think I care more, great,what is the thing then?
That's a big one, anchoring toyou and rooted, like what will
help you feel rooted.
That's what we're invested innot making sure that you stay
Christian or that you leaveChristianity, or that you're a
(39:22):
particular type of Christianlike, I don't care.
We find a story that orientsyou right and I really love that
.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
I love that so much.
I actually felt almostemotional because my partner and
I my partner went to Gallaudetand so fully immersed in the
deaf community and so theirchosen family has now become my
family and one of the people inour chosen family actually my
daughter's godmother now and oneof the things that has been so
(39:50):
beautiful about that is thereare Jewish people, pagans,
agnostics, atheists, like, andthe times that we have together
around ritual, around beinggrounded in community, the way
we take care of each other.
It's so beautiful to feel likeyou know and I will say you know
I'm doing the work too.
(40:11):
So I'm kind of like I'm notsure, I don't know where I would
go.
I feel very much compelled bythe story of Jesus, but
Christianity used to be like aonesie, and now it's just a
jacket right, like I don't feelas it's losing its grip on me
and it's not as necessary for meto fully live into what I feel
(40:32):
like Jesus has taught me right,but at the same time, like
you're saying, it's grounded inthis tradition of all of these
people trying to figure out whenyou find out that there are all
of these different types ofChristianities.
I agree with you.
I think we've got to do thatwork, like let's not just leave
evangelicalism.
I mean, what are the people inthe East talking about?
Like you know, what are theNakamati documents talking about
(40:55):
?
Those types of things I thinkmatter as we do this work.
So I appreciate you saying thatthat, like, let us leave, but
let us leave.
Well, because I have been, Ihave encountered folks who are
more the evangelical, atheisttype and they're just not fun
people to be around andtypically I mean honestly,
typically it's like they're justnot.
(41:16):
There's stuff that has not beendealt with when a number of
levels that I think maybe evenreligion couldn't cover over in
a lot of ways that now, like Idon't have anything and now you
just stuck with you and all thatunhealed shit is coming out on
all of us.
So, as we like, take the turntowards the coroner.
(41:37):
I think the people that listento this podcast they're in a
couple of different spaces Somehave just decided I'm done with
toxic Christianity, I'm leavingit Maybe not Christianity, but
I'm leaving toxicity, and Idon't know what that means.
And there are some folks whoare trolls, who are listening to
try to catch me in something.
And then there are those whoare sneak listening, who are in
(42:01):
situations where they have tokind of do this in the closet.
They're listening to thesethings in the closet for their
sustenance, and so I want you tothink about them.
As we think about the last threequestions I'm gonna ask you,
which are what are you bringing?
What are you bringing from therubble?
And obviously, father Shea,you're still a Christian, but I
know that for you, you said youhave rootedness and
(42:24):
evangelicalism, so we'll justkind of do have you unleavened
from evangelicalism, right?
And then, brian, like kind of,what are you keeping?
So what are you bringing fromthe rubble?
What are you binging?
Are you watching something,eating something, drinking
something?
And then what are some wordsfor us to live by?
And in any order you can eachgo.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
I was thinking about this the other day because
someone asked me what do youmiss from your evangelical days?
And so it's such a fascinatingquestion to me because there are
so many things that on thesurface I miss.
But I think that part of thework that we have to do is
really figuring out what isunder that thing that we say
(43:10):
that we miss.
Right, like when I think aboutcommunity, it's like sometimes I
miss the easy community, butit's also like that community
was really conditional and likeI don't miss that and so I have
right.
So it's just thinking aboutthat, but I do think that like
for me a deep love of scriptureis something that has remained a
(43:33):
constant for me, Even though Iread scripture in radically
different ways right.
In ways unrecognizable to mysmall evangelical self, but that
rootedness in language, inwords, in stories, in scripture
is definitely something that Ibring with me, even as I'm like
(43:58):
telling folks like you have tolearn to read differently, but
you can love scripture and youcan still be rooted in these
stories as you move intowhatever is next.
I'll stop there for a minuteand see if Brian wants to answer
that one.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
Yeah, this is such a great question.
It's also like a question thatone of the rabbis who was part
of my conversion process askedme like what are you bringing?
What are you gonna bring withyou?
So what a beautiful question.
I think that I'm bringing.
Oh, it's like so many things.
I'm bringing so many things.
I think that some of them are asense of that I am part of
(44:34):
something bigger than myself andthat I am responsible for
people other than myself a senseof community, a sense of
curiosity, a sense of the worldis not as it should be, and that
we can be a part of preparingthe world right.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Right.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
That's something that we see in Christianity energy
is in different ways right.
That like things got wrong andwe need to make things better,
and that there are like toolsthat I can tap into to help me
appreciate and savor like thejoys of my life and that can
(45:22):
help me get through like thehard valleys of my life, and
that all of this is like betterwhen we do it together and when
we take care of one another.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
So good.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
What I'm taking with me.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Beautiful.
What are y'all binging?
Speaker 3 (45:41):
I'm binging this Danish TV series called Rita
because I'm trying to get backinto my Danish, I think that's
great.
Inside of Sanctuary Collective,one of our members was talking
about watching Red, white andRoyal Blue and so I tried to
listen because it just came outwhen we're recording this on
Amazon and I was trying to readit in.
I was trying to listen to theaudiobook in Danish and I was
(46:03):
like I'm not good enough at myDanish.
Yet I was listening to theDanish version of Red, white and
Royal Blue, but that inspiredme to then like pivot, and so
I'm binging this Danish seriescalled Rita and I'm also, on a
more serious note, finishing upthis book that I've been reading
.
It feels like for forever.
I just keep putting it down,but it's so good.
It's called On Repentance andRepair by Robert Diner
(46:26):
Grutenberg.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Very good, that was great.
Speaker 4 (46:32):
I went to the drama bookshop when I was in New York
earlier this spring and boughtmore plays than I should have A
very large, large plays and soI've been making my way through
that stack and that's beenreally fun Reading plays by
people who are just reallyexperimenting with form and with
(46:53):
story.
And, yeah, like there's a playthat is told in tweets.
I have no idea how you wouldstage this thing.
Apparently it's being staged inplaces.
I'm just so fascinated.
So those are some of thebinging a bunch of plays right
now.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Wow, that's so good.
Okay, Words to Live by.
Think about our audience andI'll let you go whenever you're
ready.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
So I mean, I just I think for me this sense of for
folks that are well for thetrolls, like get a hug, properly
the one that is helpful to theworld.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
If you're gonna troll , join my Patreon.
Exactly put your money whereyou're about this.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
I think, for the folks that are feeling either
they're just beginning on ajourney or they're still in the
closet in some kind of way.
I remember being in that spaceand this sense, this deep fear
that it was always going to behard right, that it was always
(48:02):
gonna be terrible, it was alwaysgonna be a struggle, it was
always gonna be lonely, it wasalways gonna be plagued with
guilt and with shame.
And I just wanna say to thosefolks like that's not true, that
there is a future where thereis peace and abundance and
(48:23):
integration and wholeness andfreedom from fear and freedom
from shame, where you have acommunity that you couldn't even
have dreamed of, and so youjust have to keep going.
You have to keep going throughthis hard part.
Look for the allies, look forthe people who can walk with you
(48:44):
in this time, but just keepgoing, because a beautiful
future awaits if you don't win.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
So good right.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
I think that I would say that, whether you believe,
like, in a God who created allof this, or whether you just
believe that we're all productsof chance and evolution, that,
like you, being here is amiracle, that you are a product
of like millions and billions ofyears of creatures coming
together and creating somethingnew over and over and over and,
(49:18):
over and over again through theeons and that, like at your
heart center, like you are goodand you are curious and like, by
tapping into, like both ofthose things, like everything
else is figure out, figure oroutable, and like you will
figure it out and you will notbe the first nor the last person
(49:38):
to figure it out.
And there are people who areready to figure it out alongside
of you.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Well, thank you all so much for being on the show.
So thankful for you.
I'm so excited about 10 years,so congratulations.
Speaker 3 (49:55):
Thank you and.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
I'm hoping that you know a lot more people connect
with you all find you and learnfrom you.
I appreciate just the role youplayed in my own journey and
hopefully my listeners will too,so thanks for being on the show
.
Speaker 4 (50:08):
Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Thank you for listening.
To pick your money in yourheart is.
Don't need to sub.
Quack your ink and clean thepath for black students today.
From the other side of toxic Christianity.
I found myself faced with onequestion Now what this podcast
is about that question?
We have conversations withfolks who are asking themselves
the same things.
We're picking up the pieces ofa fractured and fragmented faith
.
We're finding treasure in whatthe church called trash, beauty
(00:21):
and solidarity in people andplaces we were told to fear,
reject and dismiss.
I'm Tamise Spencer-Helms andthis is Life After Leaven.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
What's up everybody.
Welcome back to this episode ofLife After Leaven.
I'm your sick host, tamiseSpencer-Helms, and I'm joined by
the team at Queer Theology andI know I've talked a lot about
them when we've done book stuffand I'm so excited to have them
on the show.
Brian and Shay, I'm going tohave you introduce yourselves
and then tell us who you are andwhat you do.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
for those who don't know you, Sure, my name is Brian
G Murphy, he, him or they thenpronounce both fuel great for me
.
I am Jewish, I'm a queer sacredstoryteller, I am bisexual, I am
polyamorous and for the past 10years I've been working with
(01:16):
Shay, with Father Shannon,queertheologycom, to do two
things really, sort of like makethe beauty that is queer
theology and queer sacredstorytelling and the sort of the
sort of like new insights tothe behind the happen when you
fuse queerness and theologytogether accessible to everyone.
(01:36):
And then also to teach folkshow to do their own queer
theologizing, even if they'rejust, you know, quote, unquote,
like regular folks at home, notnot pastors, not theolog, not,
like you know, officialtheologians, not academics, but
like.
I think there's power ineveryone.
Telling their story andclaiming their story, both in a
(02:00):
healing sort of way, can be veryhealing process for folks, but
it also can be a source of likebeing prophetic and activism,
moving conversation forward.
It's both looking backwards andlooking forwards to sort of
like harness the intersectionsof queerness and spirituality
and story.
Wow, that's my elevator pitch.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
It's beautiful, father Shannon.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
So I'm Father Shannon T L Kearns I use he him his
pronouns.
I am a writer and a theologianand a storyteller as well and,
yeah, like Brian said, we'vebeen doing this for for 10 years
and I think that you know the.
The goal of this was alwaysabout creating a movement, right
(02:44):
, and it was always about beingcontent creators or providing
resources, necessarily for folks, but it was really about, like,
building a movement of queerand trans people who could?
really integrate queerness andtransness and spirituality and,
like Brian said, really move theconversation forward in both an
(03:08):
activist spirit but also in atheological spirit.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, oh, man, and like you said, you've, you guys
have been going for 10 years andI'm using guys in the
proverbial sense, but you soyou've been doing this, you know
, 10 years and I really was.
So a lot of my listeners ifyou've been listening to any of
the stuff I've done for the book, you know that when I first
came out, I Googled queertheology and you all popped up
(03:38):
because both things well, onewas new to me, the other one
wasn't.
I had always considered myselfa theologian, love theological
study, love studying religionsand things like that, and didn't
know if I could fuse those twothings together, like fully be
myself and also love digginginto things like that.
And so this was the firstorganization I found.
(03:58):
When I, when I came out, it waslike the a day later when I was
thinking about how can I live aqueer life and also stay
connected to something thatbrings me life, which is the
study of theology.
So I'm wondering can you tellus a story?
How did you get started andwhere are you now, after 10
years?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Yeah.
So I mean the.
The story of the website iskind of funny in that you know
Brian and I were on a probably aSkype call at that point maybe
Google hangouts this before zoomand you know we would.
We would get on a call, youknow, once a week just to kind
of talk and and to be incommunity and to talk about
(04:40):
creativity and spirituality, andwe're both watching the
conversations that werehappening in the Christian space
in particular at that time andfrustrated frustrated that it
seemed to be really stuck inlike is it okay to be LGBTQ plus
and Christian?
And like we weren't eventalking at that point about like
(05:02):
and what does that look like,if it is okay?
It was really just like, is itokay?
And both of us have been deeplymoved by the work of queer
theologians but found that workto be often really inaccessible.
It's very very academic andheady and hard to read.
And one night on one of thosecalls I was like I wonder who
(05:24):
owns the domain queertheologycom.
And we Google and realize thatno one had it.
And so we were like, oh, okay,well, we need to get that right
now.
And so we really bought itwithout a sense of what we were
going to do with it, but justfelt like this, we need to have
this domain and figure out whatthere was something there, yeah,
(05:47):
and so we started then a couplemonths later by doing a course
on Google Hangouts with people,because you could only have 10
and we work two people to doreading queery, which was like
what happens when we read theBible from a queer perspective,
(06:08):
and the energy and that Google'sroom was so good, we were like
oh, this is this is the work.
It's not about like is it okayto be queer and Christian or
trans and Christian?
It's not even like well, how dowe work to get people to let us
into their churches?
It's like no, we have goodnessand richness right here amongst
(06:32):
us Right now as we're reading,and like this is can be
transformative for us and forthe church and for the world.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Wow, yeah, how did you all meet?
How did you all get connected?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
We met through a friend of a like.
We had a mutual like bestfriend in common when we were
all the three of us living inNew York and so our friend Micah
like, introduced us like atsome group hangs a few times,
shake him over to my apartment.
I went over, I was like I sawhim preach for the first time.
I remember the first time I sawhim preach I was like not his
(07:06):
first time preaching, it was myfirst time seeing him preach but
I remember like I was likeseeing him preach and being like
oh man, this is like really,really cool.
You know a lot of like a lot ofpastors when they preach it
sort of like their version oflike something that like they
heard someone else tell which islike, which they like run a
(07:27):
book, which like, and the personwith the book heard from
someone else, right, so it'slike.
But I was like it's kind oflike remix theology where I was
like.
Oh, she is like creating likebrand new theology in front of
my eyes.
This is wild.
I want more of this.
I want to do this myself.
This is so powerful.
And so then we just like kindof became friends and Shane
(07:47):
moved to Minnesota and so wekind of kept in touch loosely
and then probably startedtexting more and emailing more
and ranting more about the stateof like LGBT Christian down and
then started, like she wassaying, meeting up on zoom, yeah
, just sort of like.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Huh, so 10 years ago.
Okay, I want you to describe 10years ago what was the state of
LGBTQ plus Christendom, andwhat is it like now?
What would you say has been themajor change?
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Yeah, it's so funny that you asked that, because so
for our podcast we just inviteda bunch of people to like record
little messages reflecting backon what it was like for them
personally 10 years ago and alsosort of like where the movement
was 10 years ago.
I think like 10 years ago theprevailing conversation was is
it okay to be LGBTQ andChristian?
(08:40):
The primary concern for thoseof folks, just the fact that
there was a debate at all, likethe great debate site A versus
site.
B.
The whole thing was likedebating.
Getting like gays to debateamongst themselves was like
which one was right, Just messyright, and then even amongst
people who were like it's okayto be gay.
(09:01):
The primary concern was likegetting let into majority
straight, straight runinstitutional churches and sort
of like conforming, like tryingto like keep everything the same
but just like a lot likewhatever, like gay and also that
right.
So like there's sort of likediscussion around purity culture
(09:22):
.
Deconstruction was juststarting to happen.
We get one of our earlywebinars.
We had Lola on who does a lotof work on pretty culture.
You know the idea of like beingsex positive and Christian was
like pretty fringe.
No one was talking aboutpolyamory until we started
(09:43):
talking about it.
If you use them to the project,the trans really talking about
trans stuff?
Yeah, it was like an add on oran afterthought, like it was
really like LGBT focused, reallyfocused on sort of like acting
on your homosexuality and likewhether or not that is okay, and
(10:04):
and so yes, that was, that was10 years ago.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Oh my goodness.
So no conversations about trans, really kind of pitting
different views of the Ihesitate to say issue, but side
a, side B conversation.
And now, where are we now?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I mean access, and also 10 years ago, like access
international still exists, likepeople were, like it was, like
said a side.
B side X like side B wassupposed to be like the
compassionate thing.
That was like better thantherapy.
People are still going to XPtherapy, and maybe a few hours
today, but like it was just likea different, such a different
world.
Not really no conversationsaround trans folks or bisexual
(10:45):
folks, but it was.
You know, bisexuality and somuch as it is like you are
oppressed by homophobia and liketransgender and so much as like
well, like you seem kind of gay, like like it's just some sort
of like right.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
I think I'm going to name the podcast that I think we
also need to remember like thisis before you could get married
in the United States.
Wow, and you know this is inmany, in a lot of places.
This was like before you couldget ordained as an openly LGBTQ
plus person in many, manytraditions not all of them, but
(11:28):
like in a lot, most probably,yeah.
And even if you could like, theodds of you getting hired in a
church were slim to none.
When I went to seminary andstarting in 2006, I was only the
second out trans person to liketransition in my seminary,
(11:48):
right.
So like this is, this is I wastalking to someone the other day
who's like yeah, like almost myentire class is like queer and
trans and seminary.
Yeah, like we are in a, we arein a radically different place
and I think that, like now, aswe look at the conversation, you
know there are still peoplethat are trying to debate side a
and side b or claim celibacy orwhatever, but like that is not
(12:12):
the forefront of what we'retalking about.
Like what does it look like towelcome polyamorous families
into our communities?
What does it look like forclergy to be openly polyamorous?
What does it look like to, youknow, really like center queer
and trans voices and folks?
It's not about like come to ourstraight church and be the
(12:35):
token.
It's about what does?
it look like to have a communitythat is, like, centered on your
experiences.
That straightens this.
Folks are welcome to join.
And also it feels important toalso say that, like since the
2016 election and having folks,you know, jumping ship on
(12:56):
evangelicalism in greaternumbers than ever before, indeed
a circling back to some of theconversations that we were
talking about 10 years ago andso this is also like
encouragement for folks that aremaybe new to this conversation
or just entering in to reallypay attention to the work that's
been done at theseconversations and happening for
(13:16):
a really long time, and thatthere you might find a lot more
movement and joy and freedom byjumping out of some of the
conversations you're in andjumping ahead right.
That that we don't need torehash side a, side b.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Please, let's not do that again.
Moving on, moving on.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
I love.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Okay, so here's what I want to do.
Okay, Brian, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I think it's like so much more interesting to focus
on the gifts that queer peoplebring and that queerness brings
rather than sort of being inthis defensive posture and I
think it also allows more roomfor like exploring and
celebrating our various like,for instance, I'm bisexual,
right, and so when we focus onlike my oppression, I'm like
primarily oppressed on like theaxis of like my quote unquote.
(14:06):
Like gay sex right.
Like homophobes don't reallycare if I'm married to a woman,
they care if I'm married to aman right and so like debating
on those terms.
Like limits my identity because,like LGBT oppression that I
experienced is like homophobia,right, but like when I get to
say like, but that's like notall of me, though.
And like what does it look liketo be attracted to like
(14:28):
multiple, multiple genders?
And how does the experience oflike being in gay spaces but not
like totally gay and instraight spaces but not totally
straight, like?
What is that like?
What's your like nuance?
Like might I bring to theconversation?
Or like when we're not justsort of stuck on like it's okay
to be gay, like how does sex,you know, impact our theology?
(14:50):
What is like like?
What's the theology of likehooking up, and how does that
like translate into welcomeright, how people taken, you
know, taking care of one another, how have like lesbians taking
care of gay men's, and howbisexuals and trans folks been
historic allies and bridgebuilding.
And how does like race andgender and immigration status
and should be sad as all sort oflike intersect, like it all.
(15:12):
It's just like such a morericher, full, I think, both more
human and also more divineconversation then.
Like yeah, can I please come toyour church.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, I do feel like we've definitely moved on from
that question I can't I can'timagine there being churches, or
I mean, they're up.
Let me rephrase that there aredefinitely churches that are
still anti, but I'm like at thispoint, are you all serious?
It's just, it's 2023.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Like I, just feel the gospel is not there, right,
like you're there, like I don'twant to go to that.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, there is like like you're saying like humanity
is not represented here andit's kind of like you know, I
was talking to someone one timeand I'm like you know you talk
about the church being thisplace of community and stuff
like that, but like hardlyanybody in your zip code could
come into your house for onereason or another, whether it be
that they're queer, whether itbe that they're queer, they're
(16:06):
fornicators, they're on drugslike all of these things like we
talk about the church beingthis open space, but it but it
really isn't.
And I really found, like I foundyour theology in particular,
father Shannon, to be reallyhelpful, as I was kind of
figuring out how do I kind oflook at some passages that used
to mean things to me, that usedto move me, that like moved me
(16:31):
in very, very profound ways, butnot knowing exactly how to how
to kind of embrace thosepassages, and it took me a
really long time even to getback into scripture, took years
for me to even like want to openscripture again.
Can you talk to us about whatit's like to get back into that
place and what does it mean tohave queer perspective?
You said a queer theology orqueer theological perspective.
(16:54):
For folks that don't know whatthat is, what is that?
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Yeah, I think for many of us, especially who grew
up in maybe more conservative orevangelical traditions,
denominations, many of usthought that we were really
studying the Bible becausethat's what we were taught right
that if you read the Bible alot, if you go to Bible studies,
if you go and listen to yourpastor and preaching that, you
(17:21):
are doing deep Bible study andthat is like true-ish right In
that you know a lot about whatis in the Bible but you don't
actually have any tools tounderstand that outside of, like
your evangelical, conservativeteaching.
And so one of the things thathas been really important for me
(17:45):
is to make scholarly tools forreading and understanding
scripture accessible to folks,Because a lot of folks feel like
you have to either, like you dothat deep evangelical Bible
study or you like have to go toseminary, that there's no middle
ground and it's actuallypossible to get a lot of
(18:07):
scholarly information withoutgoing to seminary and without
like reading heavy tomes aboutbiblical studies.
But you do have to actuallylearn some things about like
historical context of scriptureand the context of empire and
exile, for instance.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
And also which resources to trust and which
resources not to trust.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Exactly exactly.
Just Google and like trust thefirst thing that comes up right,
which is the other way thatpeople were taught to study the
Bible, right?
We got a hate comment onTwitter the other day that was
like linked toBiblestudytoolsorg, and I wanted
to be like if you are linkingme to Biblestudytoolsorg A,
(18:50):
these are not like actual Biblestudy tools and.
B think you haven't done yourwork, Like this is not they were
claiming that they had donelots of research.
Anyway, I think that, likethere's that piece of like
learning some of the ways thatscholars read scripture, that is
really important, and then thesecond piece of that is that
(19:11):
many of us have been taught thatwe somehow corrupt the text,
that by bringing our full selvesto the text, that we are doing
it dishonestly, that we are justreading into the things that we
want to hear, or that thinkingthe text say what we want it to
say, but like the truth is thatwe all read from a particular
(19:35):
context.
It's just that queer and transfolks and black folks and Latinx
folks, like we name the placethat we're doing.
the reading from and we'resaying actually it matters that
we do theology from thisparticular place and that none
of us are doing theology from aneutral place, and so queer
(19:56):
theology is just naming like weare reading the scripture as
queer folks.
We are reading the scripture astrans folks.
For me, it's also important toname that like I read scripture
as a white trans man from theUnited States.
I cannot divorce my identityand the context I live in from
how I'm interpreting scripture,and that's why it's so important
(20:17):
that I never read scripturealone, right, that I'm always
studying it While also readingwomanist theology and black
theology and theology written bypeople that are not from the
United States, so that I amgetting a fuller sense of what
these texts mean, what theycould mean.
And I think that somethingreally powerful happens when we
(20:38):
put all of our identities andall of our ways of reading
scripture together.
And we also need the old whiteguys from Europe Like that.
That's important.
Some of them are right, some ofthem are right and they helped
us get where we are for good andfor ill.
And so we have to understandthat, but like we have to do
this work and it's morecomplicated, right Then picking
(21:01):
up and opening the Bible andlike pointing to a verse and
saying this is gonna be theverse that's gonna speak to me
today, yeah, and also it's muchmore beautiful and rich and, I
think, leaves us less at risk ofreading something that's really
gonna wreck us because we don'tunderstand the context that it
comes from.
(21:22):
We've had these experiencesright Of being quote unquote
convicted by something, yes, butit's because we're reading
something that was neveractually meant for us or it was
not meant in this way and like.
So it's important.
It does less damage to read itin this way too.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Well, I think yeah.
That's okay, good, no, do youhave anything to add?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, yeah, I see this journey that folks go on.
They sort of like when you'releaving reading scripture in a
conservative way, whether that'sconservative, protestant,
specifically evangelical also,like Catholic also, orthodox
Also.
Sometimes you go to like aliberal mainline church but like
they didn't teach you how toread the Bible particularly well
(22:04):
, or maybe you've just sort ofabsorbed the evangelical way of
reading it through culture.
And so lots of folks haveevangelical understandings of
the Bible without beingevangelicals themselves.
So that's just like a pin inthat.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
That is so good.
Say that again.
You gotta say that again, Brian.
I think you gotta say that.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Lots of folks have evangelical readings of the
Bible without the evangelicalsthemselves, because evangelical
Christianity has so dominatedthe narrative around what
Christianity is in general andwhat the Bible is in particular
that folks, those are the onlytools folks have and they're
just like what they've absorbedwithout thinking, without
(22:41):
realizing their osmosis.
They don't know thealternatives are out there.
So, like the number of times wemeet people at progressive,
liberal, mainline Protestantchurches that like don't realize
lots of people think that theflood was a myth, that like
think that penal substitutionarytorment, which is like God is
angry at you for sitting in, soJesus had to die in your place,
(23:02):
is like the only way ofunderstanding what happened like
on the cross and how salvationhappens.
Right, that's like us too bigand common, too big to a big,
common example.
Right, we see this progressionof like your.
So you first you're reading theBible in a conservative way and
then, for whatever reason, likethat stops working for you.
Maybe it's because you realizeyou're queer, maybe because
(23:22):
you're like a black person or awoman in America.
I'm like Donald Trump becomespresident, you're like holy shit
, right, and so there's.
I think the first step is likethe Bible is still right, but I
don't like it and I am rejectingit, but it's.
But I still can't like let go ofthe idea that, like the
conservative understanding ofthe Bible is correct, but I'm
(23:44):
just like angry at it.
And then like the next step, Ithink, is that people are like
the Bible is wrong, or like fuckPaul.
Or like I want to get, I wantto be a Jesus follower, not a
Christian right, and so there'ssort of like like cutting and
pasting parts of the Bible andparts of the Christian tradition
, which I think is notinherently a bad or a wrong
(24:07):
thing.
But I think that there's likethis really, if you can push
through that and break on to thenext level, you get to a place
where, like the whole Bible andall of Christianity and all of
its mess is like beautiful andavailable to you.
And so I think about like I cantrack the journey for me with
like Romans one, romans oneneeds to be scary.
(24:28):
Then I was like Romans onedoesn't count.
And now I'm like I love Romansone.
I could preach a queer sermonon Romans one and Romans two
Right.
And so, like the things that you, there's a.
I think there's a period oftime after folks have like come
out of conservative Christianity, where parts of the Bible or
parts of theology or parts offaith still feel scary or
(24:49):
prickly.
I'm like, maybe most of thetime you feel not scared and you
don't feel unsafe, but it'slike but I can't open that door
or I can't get too close to that, and we found that that still
is giving this like, even ifyou're all conservative, like
for your base base, like eveneven that is too much power if
you have to avoid it.
(25:10):
And so there's like not apassage in the Bible Christian,
or are you not afraid to be like, yeah, give me that and I can
like wrestle, I can wrestle withit, and that is part of the
process, and when you get tothere like anything, fucking
freedom.
Anything is possible.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, like I'm glad that you took me there.
I'm sorry Like I keep alwayscutting you off, cause I get
excited when I hear you talk,but this is beautiful because
you led me right where I wantedto go.
On the internet, the interwebs,I made a comment that got some
people in my DMs and I said youknow, I'm wearing a light jacket
called Christianity, and whenit gets uncomfortable or too hot
(25:49):
or too cold in here I just takethe thing off.
So I got a lot of commentsabout that.
But I wanted to ask you cause Iknow, brian, you did you
recently convert to Judaism?
Were you always Jewish Ifinally.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
So I grew up evangelical.
Well, I grew up Christian goingto the evangelical church.
I was sort of had like one footin the evangelical Christian
world and one foot in like thesecular world in Maryland.
Okay, but I it's been like amulti-year process that I
recently finalized maybe, but bythe time this episode comes out
, like half a year ago maybe.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Wow, yeah.
So what I'm going to ask you isand Fr Shana, are you still,
you're still identifying as aChristian?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
I am, oh he's all, in All in.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
They're going to have to write it from my cold dead
hand, cold dead hands, oreternally court consciousness?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
no, just kidding, definitely kidding.
So I was thinking what do we do?
There are some folks who arelike I still love Jesus, don't
know about the Jesus is Godthing.
There are people who are likeeven if Jesus is God, I don't
care, I don't want to be aChristian anymore.
There are people who are likeno, jesus is real.
(26:58):
I've had experience, but Idon't want to come near
Christianity with a 10 foot pole.
And other people are like Idon't believe in anything.
Others are like I don't knowanything, I'm just going to try
to be a good human.
Can you all talk to me aboutwhat led to first you, brian,
what led to your conversion, andthen, in Father Shannon, what
caused you to stay?
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yeah, so I think that I will start with.
I think that if you're queerand Christianity is important to
you, or like was important toyou and you want to continue
being important to you, I likebelieve that there is like an
important place in the churchfor you, and I might have like
converted to Judaism and likeofficially left Christianity,
(27:40):
but I'm still like right therein the trenches alongside of
y'all fighting for your placeand your voice and your mission
because it is like so Necessaryand I learned something about
the time through quick questionsand stuff.
Right, I think that one of thenice things about sort of like
doing this work with Shae for solong I learned in the past few
(28:02):
years as part of this process inJudaism is thing called a
Huffruta partner and it's likeyou have like one person, but
there's like it's a pair usuallyand you sort of like study
Torah, study Tom, literally talkabout theology together, and I
was like oh.
Shayla and doing that for 10.
But like, but so, and sort ofdoing it together in public
means that like for the entiretyof the curriculum has existed.
(28:22):
I've been like I don't know ifI count as a Christian, I don't
know if I believe in God MaybeI'm an atheist and she has
always been like if you want tobe Christian, like you're
Christian enough for me, right,and where she is like she is up,
like was in seminary and thenlike then working at churches,
now like an ordained priest,right, and so you kind of get
(28:42):
like this full spectrum ofbelief from ordained priests,
like kind of sort of Christianatheist, kind of agnostic, but
now Jewish, right, you also havea whole spectrum of like.
When we started, shae wascelibate.
Now he's an agonist.
I'm Paul Gamers and like apeople's spot, right, so there's
just like a wide all points inbetween sort of our possible.
(29:05):
I think that, like there's somany ways to be a Christian in
particular, and so I don't feellike I left Christianity because
my beliefs made it not possiblefor me to stay a Christian
right.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Like.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
I think that you can believe in, you can be a
Christian and have likequestions about the like, the
exact nature of like, jesus'sdivinity, right, like was he
always?
Speaker 4 (29:30):
God.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Is he God Like?
Is that a theological claim?
But he's like really God like.
How did his?
How did he understand himselfversus how did his like the
scripture?
I don't understand him.
Versus the Holy Church, versusus today, right, like there's
lots of different ways to be aChristian and that's coming just
on Jesus, quote unquote, asdivine right and so like, if
(29:54):
you're like I think that I wantto be a Christian, but I'm like
not sure if I can be quoteunquote because X, y, z, like do
some time really examining,like is that actually a just
qualifying thing for?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
you.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Like I think if you were, like I want to be a
Christian except, but like Iwant to be like a total asshole
and scorch the earth, and like Ialso believe in, like a
different God, like in mybedroom, like I don't know,
maybe that's not, maybeChristianity isn't for you, but
like.
So, like I think there are some, I think there are some women
to how big the tent can be, butit's a pretty frickin big tent
(30:34):
and so, and I have found thatwhen I was a Christian, like
queerness, like only enriched myfaith and like led me deeper
into faith, and I don't know ifI would have become Jewish had I
not gotten back into faith andlike reclaim my faith and not
(30:54):
been as scared of like sort oflike, made peace with being a
queer.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Christian.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
I was like I did this , that I can kind of move on my
journey to Judaism.
I was telling in the rabbiniccourt it's like two years or two
decades in the making, rightLike I, I I'm.
One of my earliest memories ismaking latkes.
I have always had a lot ofJewish friends in my sort of
(31:20):
like inner circle.
Many or most of my closefriends have been Jewish.
My first boyfriend was Jewish.
Like when I came out and myparents are being weird like two
, two friends, parents inparticular were like really sort
of like.
So I get parents to me theywere Jewish.
I grew up in a very Jewish area.
So like I went to a bar aboutMitzvah at least one every
(31:42):
weekend and all seventh grade,sometimes two or three Right so
I knew a lot of the prayers byheart.
In addition, in addition toChristianity sort of like
springing off of Judaism and sotherefore feeling familiar to a
lot of Christians, regardless oftheir exposure to like actual
modern day Judaism.
I also had a lot of exposure toactual practicing modern day
(32:04):
Judaism and so it has alwayssort of felt like a second home
to me that I had been curiousabout, like maybe I could make
that my permanent home, but Ihad like some own hangups around
, like what it means to convertto Judaism that I had to deal
(32:25):
with and I think also just likethis sense of unfinished
business within Christianity, Ididn't want to be like running
away from Christianity, right.
I wanted to make sure that I waslike running towards something
and so like I think that like ifJudaism didn't exist, like
heaven forbid, right.
Like I, like I think I couldhave been a Christian for my
(32:47):
whole life, right.
And also Judaism just felt likefor me personally, like on a
day to day practices and justlike communal gatherings
situation, like more like who Ifeel I am called to be, but like
I don't necessarily think thatis the path for everyone.
(33:08):
I don't think anyone needs tobecome Jewish right.
Like we don't, we don'tproselytize, like I don't think
that everyone needs to be Jewish.
I just like, as a person, likeyou don't have to become Jewish,
you can be Christian.
You can be not Christian, but Ido think that if you were
raised Christian like whateveryou decide to be spiritually if
(33:30):
you can do that from a place ofpower and freedom rather than
from a place of, like, fear andreactivity, you're going to be
your much better for you ingeneral, because there are a lot
of people also who are nolonger Christian but are still
scared of the God they don'tbelieve in.
Right, right, come on.
That's good, that doesn't.
(33:50):
That doesn't help anyone either, so like.
So one of the things that wefeel really passionate about is
like we want to help.
If you're a queer person whowas raised Christian and
Christianity is important to you, we want to help you, sort of
like, have the most vibrantqueer Christian faith that you
possibly can.
And for whatever reasonChristianity is, like, not a
good fit for you.
We want to help you leave well,we want to help you leave
(34:10):
healthfully.
We want to help you leave fully, so that you can go on and
thrive wherever you are, becauseit, like you, deserve so much
more than sort of like kind ofleaving but still being having
you put in the door, or kind ofleaving but still being scared
or triggered or reactive all thetime.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
You just like, want like freedom for all queer
people everywhere.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Well, Shay, I saw you .
I saw you nodding your headthat even if people want to
leave Christianity, you want tomake sure that people leave it.
Well, like what's making youstay?
Why are you still a Christian?
Speaker 4 (34:41):
Yeah, I mean, I think for me there's a.
There's a couple reasons, right.
One is that I am still verymuch captivated by the Jesus
story, right, that there issomething so deeply beautiful in
that story for me and in theways that Christians have
wrestled with and understoodthat story over millennia, and
(35:04):
so that is really that'simportant to me.
I find I find continued meaningin Christian practices and
Christian scripture andChristian stories.
So that's part of it.
Part of it is stubbornness of.
There is a sense of like.
You are not going to tell methat I cannot claim this
tradition because, whatever,that this is mine to, and that I
(35:28):
get to choose to be a part ofit.
And then, finally, I think it'sa sense of like I.
My life has been so deeply andradically impacted by
Christianity.
Right, childhood was centeredin the church.
My family history and storiesare stories of evangelical
(35:50):
Christianity.
The United States, for betteror for worse, has been shaped by
evangelical Christianity, likeindeed.
And so for me there's also apart of like.
I have to make sense of thistradition.
I have to really do the work tofigure it out, and I know that
for some people, doing that workmeans that they're like out
(36:12):
right, like I do not believe anyof this anymore and like full
again, like Brian said, fully,fully support that journey.
It's like this.
This, this story has been such aguiding principle in my life
that, like what I want to do isfigure out how to do it well and
how to do it, but I also wantto, I want to echo some of the
(36:35):
things that Brian said, becauseI think that they're so
important to say them twiceRight, which is that if you are
simply staying in Christianitybecause you're afraid, because
you're afraid of going to hell,because you're afraid that God
is going to smite you, like it'stime, because you're afraid of
your parents, like right, likefear is not a good reason to
(36:56):
stay.
And also like, if you areleaving but like you haven't
actually done the work to unpackhow this tradition has shaped
you and formed you, what it isthat you're leaving behind.
What we've seen over and overagain is people who have left
(37:16):
and then replicated evangelicalChristianity and whatever thing
that they've left to go towardsright, whether that's like
they've converted but like notreally.
Or they're an atheist but nowthey're an evangelical atheist
who's trying to get everyoneelse to sign on to the atheist
train, like the amount ofevangelical atheists we have had
(37:38):
.
I'm after.
Oh, my God, I'm like man.
Go in peace.
But like I have done my work, Ineed you to write.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
The sense of like.
Whatever tradition you're in,we I think both Brian and I
fully believe that you need somekind of practice.
We would call it.
Spiritual practice doesn'tnecessarily have to be.
You need some kind of practicethat roots your life.
You need some kind of communitythat centers, you need tools
(38:16):
that you can turn to before andduring and when things are hard.
Right, we believe that that'slike a universal.
Whatever tradition you findyourself in like, let that be a
tradition that is leadingtowards health and wholeness and
integration.
That is giving you more life,not less.
(38:37):
That is leading you in freedom,not fear.
That is operating from a placeof abundance, not scarcity.
That is the journey that wewant people to be on and we're
neither of us are really tied tolike what that looks like, we
just want help you get free.
And so if you come to us andyou say, and you do some work
(38:59):
and you're like actually likenow that I'm afraid of hell, I
don't think I care more, great,what is the thing then?
That's a big one, anchoring toyou and rooted, like what will
help you feel rooted.
That's what we're invested innot making sure that you stay
Christian or that you leaveChristianity, or that you're a
(39:22):
particular type of Christianlike, I don't care.
We find a story that orientsyou right and I really love that
.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
I love that so much.
I actually felt almostemotional because my partner and
I my partner went to Gallaudetand so fully immersed in the
deaf community and so theirchosen family has now become my
family and one of the people inour chosen family actually my
daughter's godmother now and oneof the things that has been so
(39:50):
beautiful about that is thereare Jewish people, pagans,
agnostics, atheists, like, andthe times that we have together
around ritual, around beinggrounded in community, the way
we take care of each other.
It's so beautiful to feel likeyou know and I will say you know
I'm doing the work too.
(40:11):
So I'm kind of like I'm notsure, I don't know where I would
go.
I feel very much compelled bythe story of Jesus, but
Christianity used to be like aonesie, and now it's just a
jacket right, like I don't feelas it's losing its grip on me
and it's not as necessary for meto fully live into what I feel
(40:32):
like Jesus has taught me right,but at the same time, like
you're saying, it's grounded inthis tradition of all of these
people trying to figure out whenyou find out that there are all
of these different types ofChristianities.
I agree with you.
I think we've got to do thatwork, like let's not just leave
evangelicalism.
I mean, what are the people inthe East talking about?
Like you know, what are theNakamati documents talking about
(40:55):
?
Those types of things I thinkmatter as we do this work.
So I appreciate you saying thatthat, like, let us leave, but
let us leave.
Well, because I have been, Ihave encountered folks who are
more the evangelical, atheisttype and they're just not fun
people to be around andtypically I mean honestly,
typically it's like they're justnot.
(41:16):
There's stuff that has not beendealt with when a number of
levels that I think maybe evenreligion couldn't cover over in
a lot of ways that now, like Idon't have anything and now you
just stuck with you and all thatunhealed shit is coming out on
all of us.
So, as we like, take the turntowards the coroner.
(41:37):
I think the people that listento this podcast they're in a
couple of different spaces Somehave just decided I'm done with
toxic Christianity, I'm leavingit Maybe not Christianity, but
I'm leaving toxicity, and Idon't know what that means.
And there are some folks whoare trolls, who are listening to
try to catch me in something.
And then there are those whoare sneak listening, who are in
(42:01):
situations where they have tokind of do this in the closet.
They're listening to thesethings in the closet for their
sustenance, and so I want you tothink about them.
As we think about the last threequestions I'm gonna ask you,
which are what are you bringing?
What are you bringing from therubble?
And obviously, father Shea,you're still a Christian, but I
know that for you, you said youhave rootedness and
(42:24):
evangelicalism, so we'll justkind of do have you unleavened
from evangelicalism, right?
And then, brian, like kind of,what are you keeping?
So what are you bringing fromthe rubble?
What are you binging?
Are you watching something,eating something, drinking
something?
And then what are some wordsfor us to live by?
And in any order you can eachgo.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
I was thinking about this the other day because
someone asked me what do youmiss from your evangelical days?
And so it's such a fascinatingquestion to me because there are
so many things that on thesurface I miss.
But I think that part of thework that we have to do is
really figuring out what isunder that thing that we say
(43:10):
that we miss.
Right, like when I think aboutcommunity, it's like sometimes I
miss the easy community, butit's also like that community
was really conditional and likeI don't miss that and so I have
right.
So it's just thinking aboutthat, but I do think that like
for me a deep love of scriptureis something that has remained a
(43:33):
constant for me, Even though Iread scripture in radically
different ways right.
In ways unrecognizable to mysmall evangelical self, but that
rootedness in language, inwords, in stories, in scripture
is definitely something that Ibring with me, even as I'm like
(43:58):
telling folks like you have tolearn to read differently, but
you can love scripture and youcan still be rooted in these
stories as you move intowhatever is next.
I'll stop there for a minuteand see if Brian wants to answer
that one.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
Yeah, this is such a great question.
It's also like a question thatone of the rabbis who was part
of my conversion process askedme like what are you bringing?
What are you gonna bring withyou?
So what a beautiful question.
I think that I'm bringing.
Oh, it's like so many things.
I'm bringing so many things.
I think that some of them are asense of that I am part of
(44:34):
something bigger than myself andthat I am responsible for
people other than myself a senseof community, a sense of
curiosity, a sense of the worldis not as it should be, and that
we can be a part of preparingthe world right.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Right.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
That's something that we see in Christianity energy
is in different ways right.
That like things got wrong andwe need to make things better,
and that there are like toolsthat I can tap into to help me
appreciate and savor like thejoys of my life and that can
(45:22):
help me get through like thehard valleys of my life, and
that all of this is like betterwhen we do it together and when
we take care of one another.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
So good.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
What I'm taking with me.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Beautiful.
What are y'all binging?
Speaker 3 (45:41):
I'm binging this Danish TV series called Rita
because I'm trying to get backinto my Danish, I think that's
great.
Inside of Sanctuary Collective,one of our members was talking
about watching Red, white andRoyal Blue and so I tried to
listen because it just came outwhen we're recording this on
Amazon and I was trying to readit in.
I was trying to listen to theaudiobook in Danish and I was
(46:03):
like I'm not good enough at myDanish.
Yet I was listening to theDanish version of Red, white and
Royal Blue, but that inspiredme to then like pivot, and so
I'm binging this Danish seriescalled Rita and I'm also, on a
more serious note, finishing upthis book that I've been reading
.
It feels like for forever.
I just keep putting it down,but it's so good.
It's called On Repentance andRepair by Robert Diner
(46:26):
Grutenberg.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Very good, that was great.
Speaker 4 (46:32):
I went to the drama bookshop when I was in New York
earlier this spring and boughtmore plays than I should have A
very large, large plays and soI've been making my way through
that stack and that's beenreally fun Reading plays by
people who are just reallyexperimenting with form and with
(46:53):
story.
And, yeah, like there's a playthat is told in tweets.
I have no idea how you wouldstage this thing.
Apparently it's being staged inplaces.
I'm just so fascinated.
So those are some of thebinging a bunch of plays right
now.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Wow, that's so good.
Okay, Words to Live by.
Think about our audience andI'll let you go whenever you're
ready.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
So I mean, I just I think for me this sense of for
folks that are well for thetrolls, like get a hug, properly
the one that is helpful to theworld.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
If you're gonna troll , join my Patreon.
Exactly put your money whereyou're about this.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
I think, for the folks that are feeling either
they're just beginning on ajourney or they're still in the
closet in some kind of way.
I remember being in that spaceand this sense, this deep fear
that it was always going to behard right, that it was always
(48:02):
gonna be terrible, it was alwaysgonna be a struggle, it was
always gonna be lonely, it wasalways gonna be plagued with
guilt and with shame.
And I just wanna say to thosefolks like that's not true, that
there is a future where thereis peace and abundance and
(48:23):
integration and wholeness andfreedom from fear and freedom
from shame, where you have acommunity that you couldn't even
have dreamed of, and so youjust have to keep going.
You have to keep going throughthis hard part.
Look for the allies, look forthe people who can walk with you
(48:44):
in this time, but just keepgoing, because a beautiful
future awaits if you don't win.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
So good right.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
I think that I would say that, whether you believe,
like, in a God who created allof this, or whether you just
believe that we're all productsof chance and evolution, that,
like you, being here is amiracle, that you are a product
of like millions and billions ofyears of creatures coming
together and creating somethingnew over and over and over and,
(49:18):
over and over again through theeons and that, like at your
heart center, like you are goodand you are curious and like, by
tapping into, like both ofthose things, like everything
else is figure out, figure oroutable, and like you will
figure it out and you will notbe the first nor the last person
(49:38):
to figure it out.
And there are people who areready to figure it out alongside
of you.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Well, thank you all so much for being on the show.
So thankful for you.
I'm so excited about 10 years,so congratulations.
Speaker 3 (49:55):
Thank you and.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
I'm hoping that you know a lot more people connect
with you all find you and learnfrom you.
I appreciate just the role youplayed in my own journey and
hopefully my listeners will too,so thanks for being on the show
.
Speaker 4 (50:08):
Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Thank you for listening.
To pick your money in yourheart is.
Don't need to sub.
Quack your ink and clean thepath for black students today.
Popular Podcasts
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com