March 28, 2024 • 48 mins
Embarking on a transformative journey requires a guide who embodies wisdom and compassion, something Emily Rowe, the founder of Invisible Napsack, brings in abundance. Our heartfelt conversation traverses her poignant shift from education to coaching amidst the whirlwind of 2020, fostering a space where growth and liberation intertwine. Inspired by her heritage and the enlightening works of feminist Peggy McIntosh, Emily delves deep into the essence of somatic coaching, offering a beacon of resilience for those daring to chase their true calling.
As your host, Tamee Spencer Helms, I open up about my personal voyage through decolonized spirituality, and the grounding effects of connecting with my ancestry. This grounding journey has reshaped my life, revealing the stark contrasts and unique synergies between somatic coaching and traditional therapy. By shedding light on the cyclical path of self-evolution, this episode promises to be a tapestry of stories and insights, celebrating the resilience of individuals who embrace their inner diversity and strive for harmony within.
The narrative culminates with an intimate exploration of Internal Family Systems Coaching, where Emily and I honor the multitudes each of us carries. Guests are privy to the rich conversations about the healing power of acknowledging and integrating the various parts of our egos. Embracing our wholeness, we reflect on the journey of healing and the connections that lead us to a deeper understanding of self. Through this episode, I extend my deepest gratitude for the growth I've witnessed and invite listeners to draw inspiration from the transformative potential that lies within Emily's coaching philosophy.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What's up everybody.
Welcome back to another episodeof Life After Levin.
I'm your host, tamee SpencerHelms, and y'all don't know, but
I know you're about to find out.
I'm joined this week by the oneand only Emily Rowe.
This is my somatic coach y'all.
This is the one I've beentelling y'all about on all my
TikToks and stuff.
I finally was able to convinceEmily to come on the show
because if you could get whatI'm getting, you would be glad.
(00:23):
So, emily, welcome and thanksfor doing this.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
I'm honored to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I'm so excited to jump in and talk to you.
I feel like one of the thingsI'm wanting to do this season,
with this particular season, isintroduce people to my world and
introduce people to eitherheroes or people who just made a
significant impact in my life.
And I had to have you because Ihave to explain how I found you
and then I would love for youto jump into what you're doing
(00:52):
at Invisible Napsack.
But I found you on DrCleveland's website.
So we just had Dr Cleveland onacouple of weeks ago and there
was some sort of cohort orsomething that she was doing and
she had this sort of pricingbreakdown and I went down, I
read the pricing breakdown andnever seen anything like it.
It was so thoughtful andthorough.
And then you know, obviouslybecause she's dope, she left the
(01:14):
credit there.
So it tags you and it says youknow, this comes from Emily Rowe
.
So I'm like, well, let me findout who created this.
I want to know the person whosebrain this came from.
So I went to your site and findout you're a coach, a somatic
coach, and this was about, Iguess, what was that like a year
or so ago, a little over a yearago where I found you and I
just feel like I'm a differentperson and we'll get into that.
(01:35):
But I would love for everybodyto know who you are kind of.
What is your background?
What kind of space do youoccupy in the world these days?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Oh, my oh, that's such a big question.
So yeah, it's so nice to behere.
I'm so excited to be here.
Where am I?
I currently live in the LosAngeles area.
I am sorry, can I back up?
Can you just edit out partsthat messed up?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
It's like, yeah, it's actually helpful if you tell me
to, because I can write it downand go straight to it.
We're good.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
So, yeah, I identify as a embodied, liberate
laboratory coach, meaning that,you know, the embodied really
speaks to the somatic piece.
I help people reconnect withthemselves through their bodies
and then coaching.
I am an ICF certified coach.
I reside in the ancestral lands, the unceded lands of the
(02:42):
Tongva Keach people, morecommonly known as Los Angeles.
I'm a mother, a partner.
What else about me?
I am the daughter of Koreanimmigrants.
I am, you know, just a complexhuman being, here to try to help
(03:02):
people, guide people towardsliberation and, you know, in
search of it myself.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
So you have a business called Invisible
Napsack and I'd love to hear howyou got there.
Was it something that was kindof?
Was it a?
I just want to know the storyLike how did you even start
Invisible Napsack?
Where did it come from?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, so my Invisible Napsack is actually a name
taken by taken from a famousessay, a famous feminist essay
written, I want to say, in theearly 80s by Peggy McIntosh.
It's called Unpacking myInvisible Napsack.
So the whole article is abouther, as a white woman, like
(03:44):
realizing I care around allthese privileges that I didn't
even know about and justrecognizing and naming them.
When I started my business, Iwas originally focused on
supporting.
Actually, let me backtrack fora second here.
So I used to work in educationspace more like, you know,
colleges and universities andthen I did some college access
(04:07):
work in the K-12 space, and thenI found out I was getting laid
off the same week that GeorgeFloyd was murdered.
So I remember very clearly lastweek of May 2020, you know just
the upheaval in my life and inthe world and I was so upset and
, even though I was like cryingand in all my feelings, I had
(04:31):
this sense, this intuitive,knowing that like one day I'm
going to look back on my lifeand say like, wow, if this
didn't happen, I want to bewhere I am today.
So, even though I was super sad,there was a sense of like there
was a greater hand, a greaterpurpose in this really painful
experience, and coaching wassomething that I'd always wanted
(04:54):
to try.
I felt a calling towards, butit like, it's risky, it feels
scary, you know starting my ownbusiness, but during that year
of the pandemic it reallyafforded me an opportunity to,
you know, do it while stillbeing supported.
Right, Because, you know,because I was laid off, I was
(05:14):
able to collect unemployment, soI had like some financial
support to do this thing.
I would have never done it.
My partner was fully on board.
He was so supportive and he waslike go do it you know, go do
it.
And so, yeah, that's that's whenI started my business.
I never wanted to be anentrepreneur, right?
That was never a life goal formyself, and I had to learn so
(05:39):
much of how to like navigate thesystem that we're in.
But, yeah, when I started mybusiness, I called my business
my invisible nevus app, becauseoriginally at the time, I was
like, you know, I see all thesewhite people in crisis, let me
help them.
Right, let me try to help them,and so that's where the name
came from.
But, you know, after I did thatwork, I just realized that,
(06:00):
just, it was taking such a hugetoll on me to do that work, and
so I've shifted away and now Iprimarily focus on black
indigenous people of colorleaders, change makers such as
yourself, diy practitioners andreally supporting them and, you
know, surviving the late stagecapitalist health scape we all
(06:23):
find ourselves in, right?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Indy.
Yeah, my gosh, wow.
I'm wondering about thisbecause I'm thinking about all
of the ways that so many of usaround George, where we're like
maybe it's backing up a littlebit from white folks.
I remember me like trying to doa lot of work and feeling like
it was taking a toll, and itjust was not the same type of
(06:48):
work.
It was work nonetheless, but itjust wasn't the same type and I
feel like the way that you dowhat you do, you've embodied
these principles.
You've embodied sort of antiracism and holding space.
Like every time I have acoaching session with you, it's
like I don't have to askquestions about what you value.
It just comes through, and evenin the questions you ask or the
(07:09):
things that you don't say, andso I just really appreciate
people who are like kind ofcensoring folks who have
typically been on the marginsand censoring the health of
people who are out here tryingto fight against all of this
capitalism and all of thiswhiteness and all of this mess
called the world.
I'm wondering, like, in terms ofa spiritual so obviously, life
(07:31):
After Levin is a podcast that isabout what we do with this,
like all of the broken fragmentsof a faith that we once had.
What do we do as we pick upthese pieces, as we're trying to
rebuild something that issustaining and life giving and
connected to something outsideof ourselves?
I know that a lot of folks areasking those questions, so could
(07:53):
you give us a little bit aboutyour religious history or your
spiritual history, that type ofstuff.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
So I was born into a, like I said, an immigrant
Korean household.
My grandmother converted toChristianity when she came here
and then, by extension, thenconverted my entire, her entire
family, my mother's whole family, and then my mom converted my
(08:22):
dad after they got married.
So, yeah, you know, but youknow it was really interesting
because the Christianity was allabout reinforcing, like culture
, korean culture and KoreanConfucian ideals.
So the things they emphasized,really emphasized, like the
(08:42):
things that aligned withConfucianism, right.
So, like you, know the story ofRuth right In the Old Testament,
how she, you know, her husbanddies and she follows her
mother-in-law and like servesher mother-in-law and all this
stuff Like that was reallyemphasized.
Because that's something that'slike again really emphasized
within the traditional Confuciancontext.
You know, when a woman marries,you're supposed to join your
(09:05):
husband's family, you're foreverpart of that family and you're
supposed to serve that familyfor the rest of your life.
So in the Confucian contextthat was considered like she was
like an ideal woman, right.
So that story would kind of betold as like an upholding of,
like the culture.
So for me growing up, you knowthe culture and the religion
(09:27):
were like this.
They were like completelyintertwined and it was really
hard for me to tease apart whatwas what Right, and you know it
was a lot of dogmas, a lot ofdoctrine.
There was a lot about obedience, right.
So especially as a young girl,right, in terms of like the
hierarchy of culture, I was verymuch, you know, on the bottom.
(09:50):
So my role was about serving andobeying and if you know me you
realize very quickly that's notwhat I'm about.
So, you know, in my teenageyears, you know I was in a
massive identity crisis.
I grew up in a pretty likewhite, like predominantly white
(10:11):
area of Los Angeles.
So even though we went tochurch, like it was like an hour
away, you know, maybe multipletimes a week during the weekday
which to me blows my mind as aparent now like driving an hour
during the weekday to go tochurch, like I don't know how
they did that, but yeah, theywould drive and go multiple
times a week.
And as I got older, you know Ijust really was absorbing, you
(10:35):
know, all the white supremacynorms, right, about who I was
and that I wasn't enough, that Iwasn't worthy, that I needed to
get, especially as an AsianAmerican woman, as close to
whiteness as possible to try tofind that acceptance and sense
of belonging.
But it was always like out ofreach, right, because I would
never be enough Because, youknow, I didn't come from the
(10:56):
right ethnic background andwhatnot, and so I had, like you
know, I had really lowself-esteem in high school, I
would say.
And so, like, I started, likebecause of that, I think,
pulling away from the church andthe culture Because, again, I
couldn't separate the two rightIn high school.
I would call myself a Twinkieor a Banana, so you know yellow
(11:17):
on the outside, white on theinside, and I didn't even
realize that was problematic,right Because?
that's what it was like in the90s for me.
So, yeah, exactly right, coconut, we all have our respective
terms that we use.
So, you know, even though I grewup in a religious household I
(11:39):
wouldn't say I grew up spiritualLike, right, like I remember
closing my eyes and praying andbeing like I don't know what's
going on, like I'm just sayingthese words in my head, Right,
like you know, the church would,the youth pastor would preach
having a personal relationshipwith God.
I had no idea what that meant.
Right, I was just followingalong, I was going to Bible, you
(11:59):
know, summer camp and doing allthose things, and yeah, so when
I stepped away, you know it was, you know all about trying to,
you know, find myself, and Ithink you know it wasn't until
(12:21):
so, like, okay, so I steppedaway from the church.
I had an identity crisis.
I went to college, I majored inAsian American studies, which
completely rocked my world andit was so powerful for me
because it was a really one, itwas a real intellectual
awakening.
And then, two, it really helpedme put my life in context in a
way that I had never experiencedbefore.
(12:42):
Like you know, when I took the,history class, I was like, oh, I
see my family for the firsttime reflected in what I'm
studying.
I understand how my family'simmigration story fits into this
larger arc of American history,of what was happening like
geopolitically between the USand Asia.
So it was, you know, and I gotreally upset, I got really angry
(13:05):
, I was like, why did it take meuntil college to learn these
things?
And so, you know, ever sincethen my work has had an emphasis
on social justice.
You know, mostly within theeducation space I've like taught
, I have done, like I said,supportive students in like LGBT
centers, multicultural centers,that sort of work.
But it wasn't until goodness,oh yes, I did a teaching
(13:29):
fellowship in.
I did a teaching fellowship inthe boonies of Colorado, in a
small tourist town in the rightnext to the Rocky Mountain
National Park.
I know you don't know thesethings about me.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
You're learning all sorts of things about me today.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Oh no, no, no, no, I didn't know anyone there, right,
it was a small alternativeschool.
It was very diverse, but it wasvery remote and isolated and I
was, you know, basically havinganxiety attacks the entire time
because I was just sooverwhelmed and I was so
disconnected from myself that Ididn't even realize what was
(14:04):
happening.
I had a hard time naming whatwas happening.
So I came back and like, when Icame back, I just had to, like,
process everything and that'swhen I found spirituality, I'll
say, for the first time in mysort of like mid to late
twenties, and I was like likethere's a greater purpose to all
this.
There's like, how do I makemeaning, how do I make sense of
(14:24):
this, like, how do I connect tosomething greater than myself?
So you know, that's when Istarted exploring Buddhism a
little bit.
I wouldn't call myself aBuddhist but I would say I'm
very much, like informed bythose, like values around
compassion, and you know, thatreally helped me to get through
(14:45):
a really rocky time and justsort of like the sense of like
connectedness, like that thesethings are not happening in like
isolation, in random, but likethere's a sense of purpose, even
when it's hard.
There's a purpose to all thisthat maybe I don't fathom or
understand right now.
And that's when I've become, Ithink, a spiritual person and
(15:07):
that's when I, you know, wasable to see how religion and
spirituality overlapped, kind oflike a Venn diagram, like cause
.
I know religious people like Icould recognize people who are
having, who are spiritual withinreligion, but not all religious
people are spiritual, right,right.
And then, in terms of where Iam now, like I'm really trying
(15:28):
to explore what it means todecolonize my spirituality.
What does it mean to decolonize?
As an Asian American womanliving on native land, and so
I'm trying to understand how andI'm trying to connect with how
my ancestors understoodspirituality and trying to tap
into that more.
So I've gotten a little morewitchy right, exploring the
(15:50):
interior and Oracle Ducks.
If you look behind me, there's,you know, my altar that I
recently built this year, whereI am, like you know, trying to
you know honor, you know theelements, the earth, and
connecting with my ancestors ina way that I've never explored
(16:10):
and what's been mind blowing tome.
The first time I built thisaltar and I did like daily
meditation for three daysstraight.
Unfortunately, I'm not that,I'm not always very good about
doing it every day, but thefirst three days I felt like so
much more grounded and it stayedwith me longer, like the night.
(16:30):
That and that completely caughtme off guard.
I did not expect that to happen.
So I think there's somethingthere and I'm just kind of
paying attention to what'shappening within me and and
using that as a way to figureout how to get grounded and how
to connect with my ancestors andhow to connect with spirit.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, I feel like that's such been such a huge
part of my own evolution change.
It's hard to kind of name and Iknow that, like when we do our
sessions, I'm like I am adifferent perk, like I recognize
this person in a way, but likeI am a completely different
(17:10):
person and it all has to do withhow I feel about myself, how I
feel about, like, the space thatI take up in the world and
actually feeling like, yeah, Ideserve to take up space, I
belong.
You know, like these are thingsthat I just never would have
said out loud and I feel likethere has been a sense in which
my own kind of movement towardsbeing more spiritual and being
(17:32):
open to connecting withancestors and connecting to the
spirit in all these other waysthat, like I do feel kind of
more grounded.
It feels like even the like I'mobviously people that listen to
the show know I came out ofevangelicalism, so you know this
idea that God is in control andthat everything is God ordained
and all these things, andthinking about how unsettling
(17:53):
that used to be and now that Ihave embraced mystery and
uncertainty and the fact that,like, actually the spirit, the
universe, is benevolent and kindand things do have kind of
meaning to them.
It's like so much less liketyranny, like and it's odd to
think about.
You know, when I used to thinkabout God in this way of being
(18:15):
like kind of overbearing andkind of, you know, puppet
stringy, that it was veryunsettling because I didn't feel
like I had much agency and Ididn't feel like I had much
involvement in the process.
But I think one of the thingsthat has come out like in my
time in our sessions has beenlike wow, like I'm a deeply
spiritual person, like all ofthose things are still here,
(18:38):
those things like you weresaying, like someone in religion
might be a spiritual person,but all religious people are not
spiritual and realizing, oh mygosh, I get to keep all of these
things that I loved about who Iwas and those parts are just
growing and becoming more a partof the way I live and I move in
the world.
So I'm like super grateful tothat and I would not have known
(19:00):
that you started around, georgeFloyd, because it feels to me
like really like ancient sagewhen we have our sessions.
I'm like, bro, how do you know,like, how do you know?
It's just, there's a way thatyou facilitate, because one of
the things I wanted to makeclear, too for folks is that
somatic coaching and therapy arenot the same thing, so this
(19:23):
isn't like a therapy session.
Can you talk about, like, thedifference between somatic
coaching and therapy?
What's the main difference thatyou see there?
Because you were very clear tomake sure I understood that
difference when we started.
I really appreciated that.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think again, I seeeverything as a Venn diagram.
Right, there's some overlap.
And I think coaching, you know,borrows a lot from therapy.
But there's some cleardifferences that I make.
One in therapy usually when youstart with a therapist, there's
like an intake session wherethey go over, sort of like, your
(19:58):
family history, your background, your past, right.
Coaching doesn't do any of that.
Coaching focuses on the present, what's here now, whereas
therapy tends to not all rightBecause there's so many
different kinds of therapies andschools of thought and whatnot.
But therapy tends to want tounderstand like the root causes,
(20:19):
like where did you know thingsoriginate from?
There's like a desire forexplanation.
It can.
Therapy can also be very heady.
I've noticed not all again, butyou know my experience with it
is that it can be very in ourheads, whereas, you know,
coaching, like I said, is abouthere and now.
I also make this very cleardistinction of like trauma work
(20:41):
around, because I've done somestudying around, like how trauma
stored in the body, what'shappening in our nervous systems
, and so, as a coach, we allexperienced trauma, we're all
living in traumatic times.
I mean, covid was a worldwidetrauma that we still haven't
(21:02):
healed from right.
But there's the differencebetween trauma, what I call
trauma with a big T right, whichis like the traumas that lead
to a formal mental healthdiagnosis of PTSD, those sorts
of things, and then trauma witha little T, where there's like
the everyday traumas of livingas a person of color in this
(21:23):
world and all the ways we haveto disconnect from ourselves,
all the ways we have tocompromise ourselves in order to
survive, and so that is a hugedistinction that I make.
You know, the work is healing,but it's not like focused on,
like unpacking trauma andunderstanding those recalls, as
in trying to do those things,all I'm trying to do in our
(21:45):
sessions really is help youconnect with yourself, help you
connect with that spark ofdivine within yourself, and then
I just sit back and want you todo the work, to be honest with
you.
You know, once I help you sortof untangle what's happening and
you get grounded again, likehonestly to me, so you're doing
most of the work.
I'm just listening and you know,honestly, I learned so much
(22:07):
from you and then I get to heala little in that process, just
by serving as a witness.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
It's really been like , really, one of the things I
think I could say definitivelyabout this process of
reconnecting with myself is that, like this evolution is
cyclical, and that was one ofthe main things that came up.
That I learned from you wasthat, hey, this is like you know
, you might pass by certainpoints again and again, but if
(22:37):
you pay attention to how you'refeeling it in your body, how
you're reacting to the situation, how you're thinking about the
situation, that is not exactlythe same right, and so you are
kind of cycling back.
You're cycling around and Ikind of think about that now to
where we'd be like, oh man, Ithought I did this work and I
was thinking of things like waymore linear.
Like I should start here and Ishould end there.
(22:59):
But I'm finding about myselfjust I can't even I've been
trying to name this, like withmy spouse and things like that,
but there is a sense in which Ifeel like I am integrating, like
I think there have been a lotof ways in which I was my own
enemy in a lot of ways, eitherbecause I didn't like a part of
(23:20):
myself or a part of myself wasnot allowed in a space, and I
feel like people who might belistening might be familiar with
that, and so we had beenworking together.
I don't know, maybe like ninemonths or something I start
taking this class.
Maybe it was a year, I don'tknow.
I start taking this class andit's a leadership class and we
read this book called no BadParts and I was like Emily, we
(23:44):
started reading this book andclass and then some of y'all
internal family systems and I'mlike that feels like what we
were doing.
You were like yeah, I'm tellingyou you can do it.
So can you talk a little bitabout that work and why is it so
?
I mean, it has beenrevolutionary for me to name
these parts of my ego and learnto kind of like and y'all don't
(24:09):
worry.
Emily knows I said I was gonnaput myself on the table here,
but, like, learn about theseparts of myself and invite all
of them to a table and not be soquick to judge or shut these
parts down, but listen and letthem hold a space for me.
Like, can you talk about thatfor people who might not know
what that is and how it works?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think this is where the
beauty of my business name, myinvisible knapsack, has really
evolved right Cause, in a peopleof color context, it's about
those parts of ourselves thatwe've kind of like stuffed aside
right, and then, like, the workof coaching them is like
allowing those parts to come out, allowing them to say their
(24:47):
piece right.
So, to answer your question, sointernal family systems is a
therapy modality that's used byactually quite a lot of coaches,
but the basic idea of it isthat we have a whole inner
community right Inside of everysingle one of us and each of
those parts, well, there's twokinds of parts there's
(25:09):
protectors and then there'sexile.
So the protectors are the onesthat tend to pop up first right.
For me, I have a very strongprotector that's like a very
critical, perfectionist typeright, and a lot of times it can
feel like we're at war withourselves because we're judging,
we don't like these parts ofourselves that exist, and so a
(25:31):
lot of what I do in coaching ishelping people embody those
parts, give those parts space tospeak their truth, take a more
compassionate stance towardstheir parts.
A key question I always ask islike, how's that part trying to
help?
What good intention does thatpart hold?
And there's always a goodintention, right?
(25:55):
That may not seem immediatelyobvious, but if we allow those
parts to speak, then we can bein communication, we can be in
conversation with those parts.
Then the relationship starts toshift.
It's not about getting rid ofthem, right?
It's about, like, changing therelationship to those parts,
(26:17):
befriending those parts so thatthey don't have to hold those
roles anymore, right, that theycan show up differently for us,
in ways that feel moreliberating than oppressive.
And so, and a lot of theseparts come up to protect us from
the world we live in, right,the systems of oppression that
we have to deal with, andsometimes those get internalized
(26:40):
and become our parts too.
And so, yeah, with you, it'severy time we learn about a part
and then you bring them to themetaphorical table, right?
Then the idea is to like, howdo we get this inner community
to become a team under theleadership of, like, your
(27:02):
highest self, your spirit,whatever you choose to call it,
rather than kind of like tryingto fight each other and bicker
like a dysfunctional family.
Andi yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
That's exactly right.
I just I am just likeincredibly grateful for you and
for the way.
So I think like the reason thatI wanted to have you in
particular to have you on thepodcast, is because I think
there's a way that you do itthat really I don't know it,
just the grounding, it andsomatic and the idea that I was
(27:37):
coaching.
So originally what I didn't saywas that I reached out to you
because the book was coming outand I knew I had so much
insecurity, like I don't know ifI had finished it yet.
But I just knew I'm about toput a book out soon and I know
that I've got to travel and talkabout it and talk about myself
and be in front of people, and Iknow how I'm wired and like I
(27:57):
don't want to ruin this formyself.
And so it was like a preemptivething that for me I was healed
enough at that point to know Ineeded a somatic coach to like,
hey, can you just help me getthrough this process without
sabotaging it?
Right, and I think about it nowand thinking about having you
in the folks that have startedto listen to the podcast because
(28:17):
of the book.
It's important for me for themto know that there's a beautiful
way that, like you, hold spacefor all of the spirituality I
bring to the table, and then allof the sort of the weird ways
that my parts and I are warring,and then just some of the just
normal day to day like hey, likeI had this kind of a thing
(28:39):
happen, and I'm not sure if it'sa big thing or a small thing.
I'm just like what I'm trying tosay is that the way that you do
it, I feel like people need tocome to you.
Like I feel like people need tofind you and sign up for
coaching with you, not becausecoaching but in particular,
emily Rowe, the way that you doit has been so.
(29:00):
I just I'm not the same and Iguess people like, when people
go through this type of likehealing and growth and change,
it's kind of the most excitingto that person because I'm just
like I know how I used to feelinside, I know what used to go
on in my head, I know how Iwould show up into a space and
(29:20):
that person is gone and it's notcontrived and I'm not striving
and I'm not faking it Like I'mdifferent.
So to be able to, like have aconversation and introduce my
listeners to the person thatreally played a massive role in.
That is just really importantto me.
Can you say a little bit moreabout the types of people, or
like, how might a person knowthey're ready for this type of
(29:43):
coaching?
Like, how might a person know,yeah, this is probably what I
need, more so than maybe goingto a therapist Not that therapy
is bad, but, like, what's thetype of person that should
choose into semantic coaching?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
I think there, well, the people who come to me first
of all tend to want to be ableto talk about oppression and how
it's shown up in their livesand how it's impacted their
lives.
So there's that piece, right.
And of course there aretherapists out there who will
absolutely support that as well,and I think you know they're
(30:19):
looking for someone who's notgoing to diagnose them, right,
because I'm not a mental healthprovider.
Right, there's definitelymental health effects, but I'm
not.
You know, I can't do any formaldiagnoses, I can't prescribe
anything, I can't do referrals,something like that, and I think
you know people who are, whoare drawn to the philosophy I
(30:44):
really try to embody.
So let me put a little contextto this.
There's an art Tema Okun wrotethis article years ago called
White Supremacy Culture Reallywell known.
So, first of all, like anyfamiliarity with that, like
people who know that are likeyou're probably in my like
client circle, right?
(31:05):
So she did a updated version,an updated website, and she
added this new characteristiccalled fear, and in it she talks
about how white supremacyculture uses fear to disconnect
us from ourselves, disconnect usfrom each other, disconnect us
from the earth, the plants andanimals, other living creatures
(31:25):
that inhabit the earth, and thenfrom spirit, right?
So when I read that, it waslike mind blown, it's like okay.
So it's all about reconnection,then, and that's the work I
focus on, and coaching Likesomeone who is ready to, who
really wants to reconnect withthemselves, maybe understand
(31:48):
themselves better, maybeunderstands that there are, like
, like there are voices in theirhead, right, it feels like
there are parts that are at warand they don't.
It's causing problems in theirlife that aren't showing up the
(32:09):
way they want to, in alignmentwith their values.
Right, because I know we've all, I'm sure, met those people,
the social justice warriors thatare just in a lot of pain and
then just lashing that pain outand people around them, even
though they don't want to, right.
But you know, so I really drawnto those people who want to
(32:32):
fully embody, you know, thevalues and the world they want
to live in and I just want tosupport that and so, yeah,
that's, that's that re-sense ofreconnection.
That's my whole philosophy, asI do as an individual coach, as
a team coach, and then I'm alsoexploring a.
I'm working with a collaboratorto create a space specifically
(32:56):
for DEI practitioners of color,more calling it the DEI public,
right, and that's all about justbeing right, not doing, not
about outcomes or, you know,overall lives or KPIs, but
really just like how can we justbe together and then just
collectively exhale and whatdoes that allow.
(33:16):
What does that create for us?
Speaker 1 (33:18):
in doing that.
Yo, I'm trying to tell y'all we, we see, we got.
I want to put the, the email Imean not the email the website
and all of this in the shownotes and I'm actually going to
go out on the limb and say thefirst person that DMs me, I will
pay for one session because Ithink that yeah, like I think
(33:40):
it's that important for me tolike have someone experience
what, what you offer and I knowthat's a wild thing, I ain't
even talking about my spells,I'm scared to look over there I
do get.
I get my $50 of fun money and,most of all, I will give
somebody my fun money to do asession with with Emily, because
(34:01):
it is that important to me that, like I am, so the way that I
feel as I'm navigating the worldright now, I just feel whole.
Like I feel whole and I feelstrong and I feel confident and
I feel like I'm getting to livemy life and I just would love
(34:22):
for folks who are angry aboutthe same things as me, who are
burdened by the same things asme, for those folks to have that
sense of wholeness as wenavigate, like this work.
I am incredibly, incrediblygrateful for you and like I'm
not going away because you knowthis is a cycle, you know these
are cycles, so don't nobody tryto take my spot on the on your
(34:45):
calendar, but I really, I reallydo appreciate that we, we land
as we sort of land.
We always ask each guest kindof what are some things that
you're bringing with you fromthe rubble if there was anything
worth keeping.
Or you could use this to say,like something that's really
been standing out to you aboutkind of going back towards
(35:05):
Buddhism.
And then I ask, like what areyou binging so like, is there a
TV show or some type of music orsomething that you're into?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
And then, yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, can I backtrack it just alittle bit?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The thing I want to just nameis that there are certain things
that show up in coaching overand over that I see people
struggle with, and it's not likeit's not what.
They come to me saying, right,they come to me saying I'm
having XYZ problem and this,this and that, but when we drill
(35:34):
down, the things that show upover and over, are people
struggling with a sense ofworthiness, with a sense of
belonging and with a sense ofsafety, and all those are
because of the systems ofoppression that are impacting us
.
Right?
I just want to say to all thelisteners out there you are
having a perfectly rational andlegitimate reaction to their
(35:56):
oppressive courses impactingyour life.
There's nothing wrong with you,right, you're already whole and
my job, my work, is reallyabout helping you step further
into your wholeness.
Right, to me, it's like thework we've done together.
I have now fixed you air quoteshere, right, right, right,
because all I've helped you dois reconnect with yourself and
(36:17):
your power.
Your healing has happenedthrough that reconnection and it
wasn't.
I wasn't telling you what to do, right, I was just helping and
holding space for you to reallymaybe face some of those parts
yourself that were too hard toface alone, right.
That are too scary to face alone, but all the wisdom came from
(36:38):
you.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
It's so true, because the way that you'll name like
one time I remember inparticular, I came in and I
thought I don't even rememberwhat it was, but in the session
you were like actually can Ijust name that?
Like you did what you thoughtyou were going to do.
Like it's been a month and youhaven't named that.
Like you did that thing thatyou thought you were going to do
.
And that's something I reallyappreciate from you is that the
(37:01):
way that you mirror back to methe ways that I have changed and
like sometimes people just needthat too, somebody to look at
them and go, no, no, no, wait,like get yourself a break.
Like look, look, look at, lookat what you've done.
Like I really, reallyappreciate that.
So thanks for naming that.
Like I, yeah, I'm just gratefulfor you, but yeah, I'm grateful
(37:22):
for you too, to me.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Like honestly, like I learned so much from my clients
, Like I think there are someclients that like I've had a
couple of sessions with and it'slike their entire lives go 180.
Just from like they take whatthey learn and they run with it.
You know, and I think you'vebeen one of those clients where
I, for sure you know, justhelped guide you and you've
(37:46):
really done the work to run withit, and so like that's like awe
inspiring to me.
I find it terribly ironic that,as a somatic coach, my go to is
disconnection, right.
So like it's really hard for mesometimes to like always.
Sometimes it's really hard forme to recognize what's happening
within myself or to evenrecognize that I'm like in
(38:09):
disconnection or numbness.
So like when, I see people likeyou and some of my other clients
who are just like so easilyjust are able to tap into what's
happening inside.
It's like my boy to me, becausethat does not come naturally to
me at all.
So there's this like reallyinteresting irony right that,
like you know, I'm really goodat holding space For other
(38:34):
people, yeah, but you know doingthat work for myself right is
constant practice and you knowthere's so many.
And I want to also say there'sno one way right.
Like my method is just onemethod to help you come into
your body.
But like I work with someone,or I've worked with someone who
was a restorative movementteacher and she helped me get
(38:56):
connected with my body throughlike physical movement, through
a very gentle physical movement,and that's also right.
when I am tuning into that, likeyou know, thoughts and images,
will you know, come up for meand then I, you know, make some
space to sit with that, so itdoesn't always have to be
through words, through coaching,Like there's like so many ways
(39:16):
to approach it.
But the whole idea is like justjust reconnect with what's
happening in our bodies, right,because the world wants us to
just stay at our head.
Right, the world teaches us toliterally dominate our bodies
with our mind.
Like that everything's supposedto like, that prefrontal cortex
is supposed to be the commandcenter and that's supposed to
just like override everythingelse.
(39:38):
And it's like no, there's likeall this wisdom that happens
below, right, and the science isstarting to catch up with what
you know many ancestors,indigenous cultures around the
world have already known, andyou know, the tapping into the
body as a source of wisdom andemotions as a source of wisdom.
(40:00):
Right is just, you know,stepping further into our
wholeness, into our humanity.
Right, because none of us arejust a head, none of us are just
a brain.
We exist, we live through ourbodies and through our feelings
as well.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
So, hmm, Hmm, oh, that's Shay, shhh.
Okay, so the last threequestions we ask every guest is
what are you bringing from therubble?
Was there anything worthkeeping from the ways that you
did spirituality?
The other one is like what areyou binging?
(40:41):
So are you watching orlistening, or anything like that
?
And then what are some words tolive by, so?
In any order, what are youbringing, what are you binging
and what are some words to liveby?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
OK, I'll start with the easy one.
So I am currently binging theGreat British Sewing Bee.
I recently got into sewing.
I'm super crafty.
I love like working with myhands.
I'm dabbled in almost every artform I can have access to, but
like sewing has really been mything lately.
(41:15):
So as I sew, I listen, slash,watch the Great British Sewing
Bee and it's really excitingbecause I'm like oh, I know what
that means.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Oh, I understand why that's so hard.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
I'm still very much a beginner, but you know I've
made a couple pieces of clothingfor my daughter.
It's very exciting to me.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Um.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
I like to joke with my friends that I'm in a
homesteading midlife crisisbecause I do things like make
jam and, you know, make clothes.
So you know one day.
I'll be able to go buy a plotof land out in the boonies and
go like, live my life off theland.
I don't know.
And OK, so what am I?
(41:56):
What am I bringing from therubble?
Is that what it was?
And the rubble meaning likespirituality?
Speaker 1 (42:02):
or religion.
Yeah, yeah, was there anythingworth keeping from the ways you
did spirituality before?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
You know, I will say the thing I miss most about the
church is the sense of community, and I think there's something
around again, it goes back tothat disconnection from each
other, and that community islike like I see my parents now,
I'm like the way that they showup for each other, and the
church is like like we need that, more of that in the world.
(42:31):
And you know it's so hard.
We live in a culture that hasgotten just more and more toxic
and focused on individuality andgreed.
Like you know, actually, I wasthinking about this the other
day.
Now that our culture, ourcountry, is so much less
religious, it feels like we'vejust replaced religion and
spirituality with materialismand wealth and that's what this
(42:53):
country worships now, and likethat's not great Right?
So no, absolutely not.
And it's destroying our worldquite literally.
And so, yeah, I think there's.
You know, that that sense ofcommunity, that sense of
belonging, I felt is something Idefinitely miss and have been
(43:13):
searching for since.
And then the last question wasthe last question.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
The last question is what are some words we can live
by?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Oh, words we can live by.
Hmm, I'm going to grab this andmy last job.
I got this as a gift.
I was on the CI workingcommunity and they had these
little framed quotes and thisone says you want to fly?
You got to give up the shitthat weighs you down.
(43:46):
Tony Morrison.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Ah shit, thank you so .
So so much, emily.
Is there anything else you wantto share before we go?
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Hmm, Now just profound sense of gratitude.
I'm so glad that our paths havecrossed, that you decided to
work with me.
I really have just enjoyed ourrelationship and it's it's
honestly inspiring to witnessand just serve as a guide for
your growth.
And like I'm so excited to seewhere you go Right, Like I
(44:24):
already feel like within a shortyear in some change, like the
transformation has been trulyincredible and so I'm just
really excited to see whathappens moving forward, because
I really truly believe thatthere's just more to come.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
I say I'll take it.
I'll take it.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening.
To pick your money in yourheart is donate to sub quatcher
Inc and clear the path for blackstudents today.
What's up everybody.
Welcome back to another episodeof Life After Levin.
I'm your host, tamee SpencerHelms, and y'all don't know, but
I know you're about to find out.
I'm joined this week by the oneand only Emily Rowe.
This is my somatic coach y'all.
This is the one I've beentelling y'all about on all my
TikToks and stuff.
I finally was able to convinceEmily to come on the show
because if you could get whatI'm getting, you would be glad.
(00:23):
So, emily, welcome and thanksfor doing this.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
I'm honored to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I'm so excited to jump in and talk to you.
I feel like one of the thingsI'm wanting to do this season,
with this particular season, isintroduce people to my world and
introduce people to eitherheroes or people who just made a
significant impact in my life.
And I had to have you because Ihave to explain how I found you
and then I would love for youto jump into what you're doing
(00:52):
at Invisible Napsack.
But I found you on DrCleveland's website.
So we just had Dr Cleveland onacouple of weeks ago and there
was some sort of cohort orsomething that she was doing and
she had this sort of pricingbreakdown and I went down, I
read the pricing breakdown andnever seen anything like it.
It was so thoughtful andthorough.
And then you know, obviouslybecause she's dope, she left the
(01:14):
credit there.
So it tags you and it says youknow, this comes from Emily Rowe
.
So I'm like, well, let me findout who created this.
I want to know the person whosebrain this came from.
So I went to your site and findout you're a coach, a somatic
coach, and this was about, Iguess, what was that like a year
or so ago, a little over a yearago where I found you and I
just feel like I'm a differentperson and we'll get into that.
(01:35):
But I would love for everybodyto know who you are kind of.
What is your background?
What kind of space do youoccupy in the world these days?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Oh, my oh, that's such a big question.
So yeah, it's so nice to behere.
I'm so excited to be here.
Where am I?
I currently live in the LosAngeles area.
I am sorry, can I back up?
Can you just edit out partsthat messed up?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
It's like, yeah, it's actually helpful if you tell me
to, because I can write it downand go straight to it.
We're good.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
So, yeah, I identify as a embodied, liberate
laboratory coach, meaning that,you know, the embodied really
speaks to the somatic piece.
I help people reconnect withthemselves through their bodies
and then coaching.
I am an ICF certified coach.
I reside in the ancestral lands, the unceded lands of the
(02:42):
Tongva Keach people, morecommonly known as Los Angeles.
I'm a mother, a partner.
What else about me?
I am the daughter of Koreanimmigrants.
I am, you know, just a complexhuman being, here to try to help
(03:02):
people, guide people towardsliberation and, you know, in
search of it myself.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
So you have a business called Invisible
Napsack and I'd love to hear howyou got there.
Was it something that was kindof?
Was it a?
I just want to know the storyLike how did you even start
Invisible Napsack?
Where did it come from?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, so my Invisible Napsack is actually a name
taken by taken from a famousessay, a famous feminist essay
written, I want to say, in theearly 80s by Peggy McIntosh.
It's called Unpacking myInvisible Napsack.
So the whole article is abouther, as a white woman, like
(03:44):
realizing I care around allthese privileges that I didn't
even know about and justrecognizing and naming them.
When I started my business, Iwas originally focused on
supporting.
Actually, let me backtrack fora second here.
So I used to work in educationspace more like, you know,
colleges and universities andthen I did some college access
(04:07):
work in the K-12 space, and thenI found out I was getting laid
off the same week that GeorgeFloyd was murdered.
So I remember very clearly lastweek of May 2020, you know just
the upheaval in my life and inthe world and I was so upset and
, even though I was like cryingand in all my feelings, I had
(04:31):
this sense, this intuitive,knowing that like one day I'm
going to look back on my lifeand say like, wow, if this
didn't happen, I want to bewhere I am today.
So, even though I was super sad,there was a sense of like there
was a greater hand, a greaterpurpose in this really painful
experience, and coaching wassomething that I'd always wanted
(04:54):
to try.
I felt a calling towards, butit like, it's risky, it feels
scary, you know starting my ownbusiness, but during that year
of the pandemic it reallyafforded me an opportunity to,
you know, do it while stillbeing supported.
Right, Because, you know,because I was laid off, I was
(05:14):
able to collect unemployment, soI had like some financial
support to do this thing.
I would have never done it.
My partner was fully on board.
He was so supportive and he waslike go do it you know, go do
it.
And so, yeah, that's that's whenI started my business.
I never wanted to be anentrepreneur, right?
That was never a life goal formyself, and I had to learn so
(05:39):
much of how to like navigate thesystem that we're in.
But, yeah, when I started mybusiness, I called my business
my invisible nevus app, becauseoriginally at the time, I was
like, you know, I see all thesewhite people in crisis, let me
help them.
Right, let me try to help them,and so that's where the name
came from.
But, you know, after I did thatwork, I just realized that,
(06:00):
just, it was taking such a hugetoll on me to do that work, and
so I've shifted away and now Iprimarily focus on black
indigenous people of colorleaders, change makers such as
yourself, diy practitioners andreally supporting them and, you
know, surviving the late stagecapitalist health scape we all
(06:23):
find ourselves in, right?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Indy.
Yeah, my gosh, wow.
I'm wondering about thisbecause I'm thinking about all
of the ways that so many of usaround George, where we're like
maybe it's backing up a littlebit from white folks.
I remember me like trying to doa lot of work and feeling like
it was taking a toll, and itjust was not the same type of
(06:48):
work.
It was work nonetheless, but itjust wasn't the same type and I
feel like the way that you dowhat you do, you've embodied
these principles.
You've embodied sort of antiracism and holding space.
Like every time I have acoaching session with you, it's
like I don't have to askquestions about what you value.
It just comes through, and evenin the questions you ask or the
(07:09):
things that you don't say, andso I just really appreciate
people who are like kind ofcensoring folks who have
typically been on the marginsand censoring the health of
people who are out here tryingto fight against all of this
capitalism and all of thiswhiteness and all of this mess
called the world.
I'm wondering, like, in terms ofa spiritual so obviously, life
(07:31):
After Levin is a podcast that isabout what we do with this,
like all of the broken fragmentsof a faith that we once had.
What do we do as we pick upthese pieces, as we're trying to
rebuild something that issustaining and life giving and
connected to something outsideof ourselves?
I know that a lot of folks areasking those questions, so could
(07:53):
you give us a little bit aboutyour religious history or your
spiritual history, that type ofstuff.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
So I was born into a, like I said, an immigrant
Korean household.
My grandmother converted toChristianity when she came here
and then, by extension, thenconverted my entire, her entire
family, my mother's whole family, and then my mom converted my
(08:22):
dad after they got married.
So, yeah, you know, but youknow it was really interesting
because the Christianity was allabout reinforcing, like culture
, korean culture and KoreanConfucian ideals.
So the things they emphasized,really emphasized, like the
(08:42):
things that aligned withConfucianism, right.
So, like you, know the story ofRuth right In the Old Testament,
how she, you know, her husbanddies and she follows her
mother-in-law and like servesher mother-in-law and all this
stuff Like that was reallyemphasized.
Because that's something that'slike again really emphasized
within the traditional Confuciancontext.
You know, when a woman marries,you're supposed to join your
(09:05):
husband's family, you're foreverpart of that family and you're
supposed to serve that familyfor the rest of your life.
So in the Confucian contextthat was considered like she was
like an ideal woman, right.
So that story would kind of betold as like an upholding of,
like the culture.
So for me growing up, you knowthe culture and the religion
(09:27):
were like this.
They were like completelyintertwined and it was really
hard for me to tease apart whatwas what Right, and you know it
was a lot of dogmas, a lot ofdoctrine.
There was a lot about obedience, right.
So especially as a young girl,right, in terms of like the
hierarchy of culture, I was verymuch, you know, on the bottom.
(09:50):
So my role was about serving andobeying and if you know me you
realize very quickly that's notwhat I'm about.
So, you know, in my teenageyears, you know I was in a
massive identity crisis.
I grew up in a pretty likewhite, like predominantly white
(10:11):
area of Los Angeles.
So even though we went tochurch, like it was like an hour
away, you know, maybe multipletimes a week during the weekday
which to me blows my mind as aparent now like driving an hour
during the weekday to go tochurch, like I don't know how
they did that, but yeah, theywould drive and go multiple
times a week.
And as I got older, you know Ijust really was absorbing, you
(10:35):
know, all the white supremacynorms, right, about who I was
and that I wasn't enough, that Iwasn't worthy, that I needed to
get, especially as an AsianAmerican woman, as close to
whiteness as possible to try tofind that acceptance and sense
of belonging.
But it was always like out ofreach, right, because I would
never be enough Because, youknow, I didn't come from the
(10:56):
right ethnic background andwhatnot, and so I had, like you
know, I had really lowself-esteem in high school, I
would say.
And so, like, I started, likebecause of that, I think,
pulling away from the church andthe culture Because, again, I
couldn't separate the two rightIn high school.
I would call myself a Twinkieor a Banana, so you know yellow
(11:17):
on the outside, white on theinside, and I didn't even
realize that was problematic,right Because?
that's what it was like in the90s for me.
So, yeah, exactly right, coconut, we all have our respective
terms that we use.
So, you know, even though I grewup in a religious household I
(11:39):
wouldn't say I grew up spiritualLike, right, like I remember
closing my eyes and praying andbeing like I don't know what's
going on, like I'm just sayingthese words in my head, Right,
like you know, the church would,the youth pastor would preach
having a personal relationshipwith God.
I had no idea what that meant.
Right, I was just followingalong, I was going to Bible, you
(11:59):
know, summer camp and doing allthose things, and yeah, so when
I stepped away, you know it was, you know all about trying to,
you know, find myself, and Ithink you know it wasn't until
(12:21):
so, like, okay, so I steppedaway from the church.
I had an identity crisis.
I went to college, I majored inAsian American studies, which
completely rocked my world andit was so powerful for me
because it was a really one, itwas a real intellectual
awakening.
And then, two, it really helpedme put my life in context in a
way that I had never experiencedbefore.
(12:42):
Like you know, when I took the,history class, I was like, oh, I
see my family for the firsttime reflected in what I'm
studying.
I understand how my family'simmigration story fits into this
larger arc of American history,of what was happening like
geopolitically between the USand Asia.
So it was, you know, and I gotreally upset, I got really angry
(13:05):
, I was like, why did it take meuntil college to learn these
things?
And so, you know, ever sincethen my work has had an emphasis
on social justice.
You know, mostly within theeducation space I've like taught
, I have done, like I said,supportive students in like LGBT
centers, multicultural centers,that sort of work.
But it wasn't until goodness,oh yes, I did a teaching
(13:29):
fellowship in.
I did a teaching fellowship inthe boonies of Colorado, in a
small tourist town in the rightnext to the Rocky Mountain
National Park.
I know you don't know thesethings about me.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
You're learning all sorts of things about me today.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Oh no, no, no, no, I didn't know anyone there, right,
it was a small alternativeschool.
It was very diverse, but it wasvery remote and isolated and I
was, you know, basically havinganxiety attacks the entire time
because I was just sooverwhelmed and I was so
disconnected from myself that Ididn't even realize what was
(14:04):
happening.
I had a hard time naming whatwas happening.
So I came back and like, when Icame back, I just had to, like,
process everything and that'swhen I found spirituality, I'll
say, for the first time in mysort of like mid to late
twenties, and I was like likethere's a greater purpose to all
this.
There's like, how do I makemeaning, how do I make sense of
(14:24):
this, like, how do I connect tosomething greater than myself?
So you know, that's when Istarted exploring Buddhism a
little bit.
I wouldn't call myself aBuddhist but I would say I'm
very much, like informed bythose, like values around
compassion, and you know, thatreally helped me to get through
(14:45):
a really rocky time and justsort of like the sense of like
connectedness, like that thesethings are not happening in like
isolation, in random, but likethere's a sense of purpose, even
when it's hard.
There's a purpose to all thisthat maybe I don't fathom or
understand right now.
And that's when I've become, Ithink, a spiritual person and
(15:07):
that's when I, you know, wasable to see how religion and
spirituality overlapped, kind oflike a Venn diagram, like cause
.
I know religious people like Icould recognize people who are
having, who are spiritual withinreligion, but not all religious
people are spiritual, right,right.
And then, in terms of where Iam now, like I'm really trying
(15:28):
to explore what it means todecolonize my spirituality.
What does it mean to decolonize?
As an Asian American womanliving on native land, and so
I'm trying to understand how andI'm trying to connect with how
my ancestors understoodspirituality and trying to tap
into that more.
So I've gotten a little morewitchy right, exploring the
(15:50):
interior and Oracle Ducks.
If you look behind me, there's,you know, my altar that I
recently built this year, whereI am, like you know, trying to
you know honor, you know theelements, the earth, and
connecting with my ancestors ina way that I've never explored
(16:10):
and what's been mind blowing tome.
The first time I built thisaltar and I did like daily
meditation for three daysstraight.
Unfortunately, I'm not that,I'm not always very good about
doing it every day, but thefirst three days I felt like so
much more grounded and it stayedwith me longer, like the night.
(16:30):
That and that completely caughtme off guard.
I did not expect that to happen.
So I think there's somethingthere and I'm just kind of
paying attention to what'shappening within me and and
using that as a way to figureout how to get grounded and how
to connect with my ancestors andhow to connect with spirit.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, I feel like that's such been such a huge
part of my own evolution change.
It's hard to kind of name and Iknow that, like when we do our
sessions, I'm like I am adifferent perk, like I recognize
this person in a way, but likeI am a completely different
(17:10):
person and it all has to do withhow I feel about myself, how I
feel about, like, the space thatI take up in the world and
actually feeling like, yeah, Ideserve to take up space, I
belong.
You know, like these are thingsthat I just never would have
said out loud and I feel likethere has been a sense in which
my own kind of movement towardsbeing more spiritual and being
(17:32):
open to connecting withancestors and connecting to the
spirit in all these other waysthat, like I do feel kind of
more grounded.
It feels like even the like I'mobviously people that listen to
the show know I came out ofevangelicalism, so you know this
idea that God is in control andthat everything is God ordained
and all these things, andthinking about how unsettling
(17:53):
that used to be and now that Ihave embraced mystery and
uncertainty and the fact that,like, actually the spirit, the
universe, is benevolent and kindand things do have kind of
meaning to them.
It's like so much less liketyranny, like and it's odd to
think about.
You know, when I used to thinkabout God in this way of being
(18:15):
like kind of overbearing andkind of, you know, puppet
stringy, that it was veryunsettling because I didn't feel
like I had much agency and Ididn't feel like I had much
involvement in the process.
But I think one of the thingsthat has come out like in my
time in our sessions has beenlike wow, like I'm a deeply
spiritual person, like all ofthose things are still here,
(18:38):
those things like you weresaying, like someone in religion
might be a spiritual person,but all religious people are not
spiritual and realizing, oh mygosh, I get to keep all of these
things that I loved about who Iwas and those parts are just
growing and becoming more a partof the way I live and I move in
the world.
So I'm like super grateful tothat and I would not have known
(19:00):
that you started around, georgeFloyd, because it feels to me
like really like ancient sagewhen we have our sessions.
I'm like, bro, how do you know,like, how do you know?
It's just, there's a way thatyou facilitate, because one of
the things I wanted to makeclear, too for folks is that
somatic coaching and therapy arenot the same thing, so this
(19:23):
isn't like a therapy session.
Can you talk about, like, thedifference between somatic
coaching and therapy?
What's the main difference thatyou see there?
Because you were very clear tomake sure I understood that
difference when we started.
I really appreciated that.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think again, I seeeverything as a Venn diagram.
Right, there's some overlap.
And I think coaching, you know,borrows a lot from therapy.
But there's some cleardifferences that I make.
One in therapy usually when youstart with a therapist, there's
like an intake session wherethey go over, sort of like, your
(19:58):
family history, your background, your past, right.
Coaching doesn't do any of that.
Coaching focuses on the present, what's here now, whereas
therapy tends to not all rightBecause there's so many
different kinds of therapies andschools of thought and whatnot.
But therapy tends to want tounderstand like the root causes,
(20:19):
like where did you know thingsoriginate from?
There's like a desire forexplanation.
It can.
Therapy can also be very heady.
I've noticed not all again, butyou know my experience with it
is that it can be very in ourheads, whereas, you know,
coaching, like I said, is abouthere and now.
I also make this very cleardistinction of like trauma work
(20:41):
around, because I've done somestudying around, like how trauma
stored in the body, what'shappening in our nervous systems
, and so, as a coach, we allexperienced trauma, we're all
living in traumatic times.
I mean, covid was a worldwidetrauma that we still haven't
(21:02):
healed from right.
But there's the differencebetween trauma, what I call
trauma with a big T right, whichis like the traumas that lead
to a formal mental healthdiagnosis of PTSD, those sorts
of things, and then trauma witha little T, where there's like
the everyday traumas of livingas a person of color in this
(21:23):
world and all the ways we haveto disconnect from ourselves,
all the ways we have tocompromise ourselves in order to
survive, and so that is a hugedistinction that I make.
You know, the work is healing,but it's not like focused on,
like unpacking trauma andunderstanding those recalls, as
in trying to do those things,all I'm trying to do in our
(21:45):
sessions really is help youconnect with yourself, help you
connect with that spark ofdivine within yourself, and then
I just sit back and want you todo the work, to be honest with
you.
You know, once I help you sortof untangle what's happening and
you get grounded again, likehonestly to me, so you're doing
most of the work.
I'm just listening and you know,honestly, I learned so much
(22:07):
from you and then I get to heala little in that process, just
by serving as a witness.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
It's really been like , really, one of the things I
think I could say definitivelyabout this process of
reconnecting with myself is that, like this evolution is
cyclical, and that was one ofthe main things that came up.
That I learned from you wasthat, hey, this is like you know
, you might pass by certainpoints again and again, but if
(22:37):
you pay attention to how you'refeeling it in your body, how
you're reacting to the situation, how you're thinking about the
situation, that is not exactlythe same right, and so you are
kind of cycling back.
You're cycling around and Ikind of think about that now to
where we'd be like, oh man, Ithought I did this work and I
was thinking of things like waymore linear.
Like I should start here and Ishould end there.
(22:59):
But I'm finding about myselfjust I can't even I've been
trying to name this, like withmy spouse and things like that,
but there is a sense in which Ifeel like I am integrating, like
I think there have been a lotof ways in which I was my own
enemy in a lot of ways, eitherbecause I didn't like a part of
(23:20):
myself or a part of myself wasnot allowed in a space, and I
feel like people who might belistening might be familiar with
that, and so we had beenworking together.
I don't know, maybe like ninemonths or something I start
taking this class.
Maybe it was a year, I don'tknow.
I start taking this class andit's a leadership class and we
read this book called no BadParts and I was like Emily, we
(23:44):
started reading this book andclass and then some of y'all
internal family systems and I'mlike that feels like what we
were doing.
You were like yeah, I'm tellingyou you can do it.
So can you talk a little bitabout that work and why is it so
?
I mean, it has beenrevolutionary for me to name
these parts of my ego and learnto kind of like and y'all don't
(24:09):
worry.
Emily knows I said I was gonnaput myself on the table here,
but, like, learn about theseparts of myself and invite all
of them to a table and not be soquick to judge or shut these
parts down, but listen and letthem hold a space for me.
Like, can you talk about thatfor people who might not know
what that is and how it works?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think this is where the
beauty of my business name, myinvisible knapsack, has really
evolved right Cause, in a peopleof color context, it's about
those parts of ourselves thatwe've kind of like stuffed aside
right, and then, like, the workof coaching them is like
allowing those parts to come out, allowing them to say their
(24:47):
piece right.
So, to answer your question, sointernal family systems is a
therapy modality that's used byactually quite a lot of coaches,
but the basic idea of it isthat we have a whole inner
community right Inside of everysingle one of us and each of
those parts, well, there's twokinds of parts there's
(25:09):
protectors and then there'sexile.
So the protectors are the onesthat tend to pop up first right.
For me, I have a very strongprotector that's like a very
critical, perfectionist typeright, and a lot of times it can
feel like we're at war withourselves because we're judging,
we don't like these parts ofourselves that exist, and so a
(25:31):
lot of what I do in coaching ishelping people embody those
parts, give those parts space tospeak their truth, take a more
compassionate stance towardstheir parts.
A key question I always ask islike, how's that part trying to
help?
What good intention does thatpart hold?
And there's always a goodintention, right?
(25:55):
That may not seem immediatelyobvious, but if we allow those
parts to speak, then we can bein communication, we can be in
conversation with those parts.
Then the relationship starts toshift.
It's not about getting rid ofthem, right?
It's about, like, changing therelationship to those parts,
(26:17):
befriending those parts so thatthey don't have to hold those
roles anymore, right, that theycan show up differently for us,
in ways that feel moreliberating than oppressive.
And so, and a lot of theseparts come up to protect us from
the world we live in, right,the systems of oppression that
we have to deal with, andsometimes those get internalized
(26:40):
and become our parts too.
And so, yeah, with you, it'severy time we learn about a part
and then you bring them to themetaphorical table, right?
Then the idea is to like, howdo we get this inner community
to become a team under theleadership of, like, your
(27:02):
highest self, your spirit,whatever you choose to call it,
rather than kind of like tryingto fight each other and bicker
like a dysfunctional family.
Andi yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
That's exactly right.
I just I am just likeincredibly grateful for you and
for the way.
So I think like the reason thatI wanted to have you in
particular to have you on thepodcast, is because I think
there's a way that you do itthat really I don't know it,
just the grounding, it andsomatic and the idea that I was
(27:37):
coaching.
So originally what I didn't saywas that I reached out to you
because the book was coming outand I knew I had so much
insecurity, like I don't know ifI had finished it yet.
But I just knew I'm about toput a book out soon and I know
that I've got to travel and talkabout it and talk about myself
and be in front of people, and Iknow how I'm wired and like I
(27:57):
don't want to ruin this formyself.
And so it was like a preemptivething that for me I was healed
enough at that point to know Ineeded a somatic coach to like,
hey, can you just help me getthrough this process without
sabotaging it?
Right, and I think about it nowand thinking about having you
in the folks that have startedto listen to the podcast because
(28:17):
of the book.
It's important for me for themto know that there's a beautiful
way that, like you, hold spacefor all of the spirituality I
bring to the table, and then allof the sort of the weird ways
that my parts and I are warring,and then just some of the just
normal day to day like hey, likeI had this kind of a thing
(28:39):
happen, and I'm not sure if it'sa big thing or a small thing.
I'm just like what I'm trying tosay is that the way that you do
it, I feel like people need tocome to you.
Like I feel like people need tofind you and sign up for
coaching with you, not becausecoaching but in particular,
emily Rowe, the way that you doit has been so.
(29:00):
I just I'm not the same and Iguess people like, when people
go through this type of likehealing and growth and change,
it's kind of the most excitingto that person because I'm just
like I know how I used to feelinside, I know what used to go
on in my head, I know how Iwould show up into a space and
(29:20):
that person is gone and it's notcontrived and I'm not striving
and I'm not faking it Like I'mdifferent.
So to be able to, like have aconversation and introduce my
listeners to the person thatreally played a massive role in.
That is just really importantto me.
Can you say a little bit moreabout the types of people, or
like, how might a person knowthey're ready for this type of
(29:43):
coaching?
Like, how might a person know,yeah, this is probably what I
need, more so than maybe goingto a therapist Not that therapy
is bad, but, like, what's thetype of person that should
choose into semantic coaching?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
I think there, well, the people who come to me first
of all tend to want to be ableto talk about oppression and how
it's shown up in their livesand how it's impacted their
lives.
So there's that piece, right.
And of course there aretherapists out there who will
absolutely support that as well,and I think you know they're
(30:19):
looking for someone who's notgoing to diagnose them, right,
because I'm not a mental healthprovider.
Right, there's definitelymental health effects, but I'm
not.
You know, I can't do any formaldiagnoses, I can't prescribe
anything, I can't do referrals,something like that, and I think
you know people who are, whoare drawn to the philosophy I
(30:44):
really try to embody.
So let me put a little contextto this.
There's an art Tema Okun wrotethis article years ago called
White Supremacy Culture Reallywell known.
So, first of all, like anyfamiliarity with that, like
people who know that are likeyou're probably in my like
client circle, right?
(31:05):
So she did a updated version,an updated website, and she
added this new characteristiccalled fear, and in it she talks
about how white supremacyculture uses fear to disconnect
us from ourselves, disconnect usfrom each other, disconnect us
from the earth, the plants andanimals, other living creatures
(31:25):
that inhabit the earth, and thenfrom spirit, right?
So when I read that, it waslike mind blown, it's like okay.
So it's all about reconnection,then, and that's the work I
focus on, and coaching Likesomeone who is ready to, who
really wants to reconnect withthemselves, maybe understand
(31:48):
themselves better, maybeunderstands that there are, like
, like there are voices in theirhead, right, it feels like
there are parts that are at warand they don't.
It's causing problems in theirlife that aren't showing up the
(32:09):
way they want to, in alignmentwith their values.
Right, because I know we've all, I'm sure, met those people,
the social justice warriors thatare just in a lot of pain and
then just lashing that pain outand people around them, even
though they don't want to, right.
But you know, so I really drawnto those people who want to
(32:32):
fully embody, you know, thevalues and the world they want
to live in and I just want tosupport that and so, yeah,
that's, that's that re-sense ofreconnection.
That's my whole philosophy, asI do as an individual coach, as
a team coach, and then I'm alsoexploring a.
I'm working with a collaboratorto create a space specifically
(32:56):
for DEI practitioners of color,more calling it the DEI public,
right, and that's all about justbeing right, not doing, not
about outcomes or, you know,overall lives or KPIs, but
really just like how can we justbe together and then just
collectively exhale and whatdoes that allow.
(33:16):
What does that create for us?
Speaker 1 (33:18):
in doing that.
Yo, I'm trying to tell y'all we, we see, we got.
I want to put the, the email Imean not the email the website
and all of this in the shownotes and I'm actually going to
go out on the limb and say thefirst person that DMs me, I will
pay for one session because Ithink that yeah, like I think
(33:40):
it's that important for me tolike have someone experience
what, what you offer and I knowthat's a wild thing, I ain't
even talking about my spells,I'm scared to look over there I
do get.
I get my $50 of fun money and,most of all, I will give
somebody my fun money to do asession with with Emily, because
(34:01):
it is that important to me that, like I am, so the way that I
feel as I'm navigating the worldright now, I just feel whole.
Like I feel whole and I feelstrong and I feel confident and
I feel like I'm getting to livemy life and I just would love
(34:22):
for folks who are angry aboutthe same things as me, who are
burdened by the same things asme, for those folks to have that
sense of wholeness as wenavigate, like this work.
I am incredibly, incrediblygrateful for you and like I'm
not going away because you knowthis is a cycle, you know these
are cycles, so don't nobody tryto take my spot on the on your
(34:45):
calendar, but I really, I reallydo appreciate that we, we land
as we sort of land.
We always ask each guest kindof what are some things that
you're bringing with you fromthe rubble if there was anything
worth keeping.
Or you could use this to say,like something that's really
been standing out to you aboutkind of going back towards
(35:05):
Buddhism.
And then I ask, like what areyou binging so like, is there a
TV show or some type of music orsomething that you're into?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
And then, yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, can I backtrack it just alittle bit?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The thing I want to just nameis that there are certain things
that show up in coaching overand over that I see people
struggle with, and it's not likeit's not what.
They come to me saying, right,they come to me saying I'm
having XYZ problem and this,this and that, but when we drill
(35:34):
down, the things that show upover and over, are people
struggling with a sense ofworthiness, with a sense of
belonging and with a sense ofsafety, and all those are
because of the systems ofoppression that are impacting us
.
Right?
I just want to say to all thelisteners out there you are
having a perfectly rational andlegitimate reaction to their
(35:56):
oppressive courses impactingyour life.
There's nothing wrong with you,right, you're already whole and
my job, my work, is reallyabout helping you step further
into your wholeness.
Right, to me, it's like thework we've done together.
I have now fixed you air quoteshere, right, right, right,
because all I've helped you dois reconnect with yourself and
(36:17):
your power.
Your healing has happenedthrough that reconnection and it
wasn't.
I wasn't telling you what to do, right, I was just helping and
holding space for you to reallymaybe face some of those parts
yourself that were too hard toface alone, right.
That are too scary to face alone, but all the wisdom came from
(36:38):
you.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
It's so true, because the way that you'll name like
one time I remember inparticular, I came in and I
thought I don't even rememberwhat it was, but in the session
you were like actually can Ijust name that?
Like you did what you thoughtyou were going to do.
Like it's been a month and youhaven't named that.
Like you did that thing thatyou thought you were going to do
.
And that's something I reallyappreciate from you is that the
(37:01):
way that you mirror back to methe ways that I have changed and
like sometimes people just needthat too, somebody to look at
them and go, no, no, no, wait,like get yourself a break.
Like look, look, look at, lookat what you've done.
Like I really, reallyappreciate that.
So thanks for naming that.
Like I, yeah, I'm just gratefulfor you, but yeah, I'm grateful
(37:22):
for you too, to me.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Like honestly, like I learned so much from my clients
, Like I think there are someclients that like I've had a
couple of sessions with and it'slike their entire lives go 180.
Just from like they take whatthey learn and they run with it.
You know, and I think you'vebeen one of those clients where
I, for sure you know, justhelped guide you and you've
(37:46):
really done the work to run withit, and so like that's like awe
inspiring to me.
I find it terribly ironic that,as a somatic coach, my go to is
disconnection, right.
So like it's really hard for mesometimes to like always.
Sometimes it's really hard forme to recognize what's happening
within myself or to evenrecognize that I'm like in
(38:09):
disconnection or numbness.
So like when, I see people likeyou and some of my other clients
who are just like so easilyjust are able to tap into what's
happening inside.
It's like my boy to me, becausethat does not come naturally to
me at all.
So there's this like reallyinteresting irony right that,
like you know, I'm really goodat holding space For other
(38:34):
people, yeah, but you know doingthat work for myself right is
constant practice and you knowthere's so many.
And I want to also say there'sno one way right.
Like my method is just onemethod to help you come into
your body.
But like I work with someone,or I've worked with someone who
was a restorative movementteacher and she helped me get
(38:56):
connected with my body throughlike physical movement, through
a very gentle physical movement,and that's also right.
when I am tuning into that, likeyou know, thoughts and images,
will you know, come up for meand then I, you know, make some
space to sit with that, so itdoesn't always have to be
through words, through coaching,Like there's like so many ways
(39:16):
to approach it.
But the whole idea is like justjust reconnect with what's
happening in our bodies, right,because the world wants us to
just stay at our head.
Right, the world teaches us toliterally dominate our bodies
with our mind.
Like that everything's supposedto like, that prefrontal cortex
is supposed to be the commandcenter and that's supposed to
just like override everythingelse.
(39:38):
And it's like no, there's likeall this wisdom that happens
below, right, and the science isstarting to catch up with what
you know many ancestors,indigenous cultures around the
world have already known, andyou know, the tapping into the
body as a source of wisdom andemotions as a source of wisdom.
(40:00):
Right is just, you know,stepping further into our
wholeness, into our humanity.
Right, because none of us arejust a head, none of us are just
a brain.
We exist, we live through ourbodies and through our feelings
as well.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
So, hmm, Hmm, oh, that's Shay, shhh.
Okay, so the last threequestions we ask every guest is
what are you bringing from therubble?
Was there anything worthkeeping from the ways that you
did spirituality?
The other one is like what areyou binging?
(40:41):
So are you watching orlistening, or anything like that
?
And then what are some words tolive by, so?
In any order, what are youbringing, what are you binging
and what are some words to liveby?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
OK, I'll start with the easy one.
So I am currently binging theGreat British Sewing Bee.
I recently got into sewing.
I'm super crafty.
I love like working with myhands.
I'm dabbled in almost every artform I can have access to, but
like sewing has really been mything lately.
(41:15):
So as I sew, I listen, slash,watch the Great British Sewing
Bee and it's really excitingbecause I'm like oh, I know what
that means.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Oh, I understand why that's so hard.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
I'm still very much a beginner, but you know I've
made a couple pieces of clothingfor my daughter.
It's very exciting to me.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Um.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
I like to joke with my friends that I'm in a
homesteading midlife crisisbecause I do things like make
jam and, you know, make clothes.
So you know one day.
I'll be able to go buy a plotof land out in the boonies and
go like, live my life off theland.
I don't know.
And OK, so what am I?
(41:56):
What am I bringing from therubble?
Is that what it was?
And the rubble meaning likespirituality?
Speaker 1 (42:02):
or religion.
Yeah, yeah, was there anythingworth keeping from the ways you
did spirituality before?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
You know, I will say the thing I miss most about the
church is the sense of community, and I think there's something
around again, it goes back tothat disconnection from each
other, and that community islike like I see my parents now,
I'm like the way that they showup for each other, and the
church is like like we need that, more of that in the world.
(42:31):
And you know it's so hard.
We live in a culture that hasgotten just more and more toxic
and focused on individuality andgreed.
Like you know, actually, I wasthinking about this the other
day.
Now that our culture, ourcountry, is so much less
religious, it feels like we'vejust replaced religion and
spirituality with materialismand wealth and that's what this
(42:53):
country worships now, and likethat's not great Right?
So no, absolutely not.
And it's destroying our worldquite literally.
And so, yeah, I think there's.
You know, that that sense ofcommunity, that sense of
belonging, I felt is something Idefinitely miss and have been
(43:13):
searching for since.
And then the last question wasthe last question.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
The last question is what are some words we can live
by?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Oh, words we can live by.
Hmm, I'm going to grab this andmy last job.
I got this as a gift.
I was on the CI workingcommunity and they had these
little framed quotes and thisone says you want to fly?
You got to give up the shitthat weighs you down.
(43:46):
Tony Morrison.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Ah shit, thank you so .
So so much, emily.
Is there anything else you wantto share before we go?
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Hmm, Now just profound sense of gratitude.
I'm so glad that our paths havecrossed, that you decided to
work with me.
I really have just enjoyed ourrelationship and it's it's
honestly inspiring to witnessand just serve as a guide for
your growth.
And like I'm so excited to seewhere you go Right, Like I
(44:24):
already feel like within a shortyear in some change, like the
transformation has been trulyincredible and so I'm just
really excited to see whathappens moving forward, because
I really truly believe thatthere's just more to come.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
I say I'll take it.
I'll take it.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening.
To pick your money in yourheart is donate to sub quatcher
Inc and clear the path for blackstudents today.
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