November 9, 2023 • 40 mins
Join me on a profound journey with Kyle Mitchell, a researcher passionate about creating a corner of acceptance for queer and transgender students in nonaffirming religious schools. This conversation will not only enlighten you about his incredible research but also give you a glimpse into Kyle's personal voyage of faith and queer identity. We'll discuss the hard truths of oppressive evangelicalism and the challenges of navigating queerness within religious families.
Imagine the internal conflict of grappling with your inherent goodness while being ensnared in a mixed-orientation marriage. Kyle candidly shares that struggle, and how his unwavering loyalty to God inspired hard, but necessary, choices. We'll also delve into his upcoming dissertation, exploring the importance of privacy during research and how it is crucial to safeguard the vulnerable.
Our conversation doesn't stop there. We shed light on the critical need to support Black students and the organizations making a difference in their lives. Kyle imparts his thoughts on faithfulness to God, a crux in his decision-making process. This episode is not just about research; it's about resilience, acceptance, and the courage to be true to oneself. Tune in and be a part of this transformative journey with Kyle Mitchell.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
From the other side of toxic Christianity.
I found myself faced with onequestion, now what this podcast
is about that question?
We have conversations withfolks who are asking themselves
the same things.
We're picking up the pieces ofa fractured and fragmented faith
.
We're finding treasure in whatthe church called trash, beauty
(00:21):
and solidarity in people andplaces we were told to fear,
reject and dismiss.
I'm Tamee Spencer Helms, andthis is Life After Leaven.
What's up everybody?
Welcome back to this episode ofLife After Leaven.
I'm your host, tamee SpencerHelms, and this week I'm joined
by Kyle Mitchell.
I have just met Kyle.
(00:42):
He is friends with my spouse,and so I wanted to kind of talk
to him about some of the thingsthat he's studying in school,
what his background is and howthat might play into our season
this time.
So welcome Kyle.
Why don't you tell us who youare, what you do, where you're
from?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Sure, so my name is Kyle.
As Tamee said, I'm getting adoctorate in psychology and I'm
one year from being donestudying out at Fuller
Theological Seminary and Schoolof Psychology in Pasadena,
california.
But as I'll probably talk abouta little bit, I grew up in the
Midwest, in Indiana.
(01:21):
So, yeah, that's me, that'swhere I'm at and I'm glad to be
here, excited I'm glad you'rehere.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
So I'm going to ask you what I asked everyone what
was life like before and afteryou unleavened your faith?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, it's such a good question because I feel
like it was just the water I wasswimming in before.
The first thing that comes tomind is like viewing myself as
bad, like that was thefundamental, like before faith
unleavened I was bad, like myexistence was bad, my flesh was
(01:56):
bad, my identity as a queerperson was bad.
It was hard to trust instinctsor impulses, things like that.
So, yeah, and it's sad to thinkabout, it's hard to think about
how pervasive that was and howmuch it colored my experience.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
That feels like the before.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And then I think that there were things about it that
I miss sometimes, like thesimplicity of kind of like the
structure and the rules, and Iclearly know this is wrong or
this is right.
You know, some things didn'tinvolve as much critical thought
, which felt easy at the time,although it's not, as we know,
(02:41):
probably how we want to live.
But there's that aspect of ittoo, not better but simpler.
And then I think the flip sideof that is, after unleavening
faith, recognizing myself andreally trying to instill this
(03:02):
belief in my inherent goodness,that I exist and that that is
enough, like my being isinherently good, things I can
create, things that flow from meare good and expansive.
Yeah, and I think then, as Imentioned also, it does
(03:24):
sometimes feel more complicatedand complex and there's layers
to like your existence andthere's impacts that you have in
the world.
That like what comes out of youcan also have negative impacts.
So there's responsibility to it, and it's not just you, it's
not your individual existence,but, like you, are part of this
(03:44):
collective sort of impact andthat comes with grief or guilt,
or confusion, complexity, allthe things that make existence
just more complicated and not assimple, but probably more or
(04:05):
more whole.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Thank you for bringing that up, and I know
that my first introduction toyou was in a call that was
taking place between my spouseand their siblings you and your
siblings kind of processing thatdocumentary that came out the
shiny, happy people documentaryand in the midst of that
conversation, ellison looks atme and goes you need to
(04:32):
interview Kyle, and so I wouldlove, love, love, to hear more
about what it is that you'restudying and what you're looking
into as it relates to queernessand faith.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, so I am working on research about how to care
better for queer and transgenderstudents in the university,
setting specifically in likebased nonaffirming schools,
which is most I shouldn't saymost, but a lot of religiously
(05:04):
affiliated schools can becategorized nonaffirming and
recognizing that schools andpolicies may not change or that
slow change happens often.
How can we intervene, how canwe better understand what's
going on and how can people thatare in charge of student care
(05:26):
or are supposed to oversee that,how can we do a better job of
care for those queer and transstudents that are there, whether
we welcome them or not, orwhether we fully welcome them or
not?
Speaker 1 (05:41):
So, yeah, that's the focus of my research yeah.
So what I mean, what kinds ofthings have you dug into?
What have you found in yourresearch so far related to that?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is that
there's a lack of clarityoftentimes in these communities.
So one of the first steps thatI recommend for these
nonaffirming institutions isimprove your clarity about the
type of belonging that a queeror trans student might be able
(06:12):
to achieve Can one day work atthe institution?
Can they have a same sexboyfriend, girlfriend or partner
while they're?
So?
I think in general, there'sjust a need to clarify language
and clarify the levels ofbelonging that people can have,
(06:35):
and that'd be a starting pointfor improving care.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah.
So I mean, when you, whenyou've talked to some of these
organizations about theirpolicies around that, do you
find that it's possible forstudents to feel safe and cared
for in a nonaffirming space?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Right.
So it's so tricky, because howmuch can we really expect people
to feel that they belong ifthere's a non-affirming umbrella
that they're existing under?
But what we know is that a lotof students go to those spaces
anyway and they might not feelat a point in their development
(07:15):
that they can go to a collegethat would be more forming or a
secular college.
There's many reasons why.
That is Like my parents payingfor this college, or I don't
want to separate my faithintegration process from my
sexuality.
I want to believe that theybelong.
(07:35):
Even though this communityisn't endorsing my experience or
my identity, there's a aspectof it that I'm still seeking out
or I'm drawn to, or forwhatever reason I find myself
there, and so I think that it'sthe ideal that you know that
we're working in this scenario.
Absolutely not, and it'sextremely draining and extremely
(07:58):
exhausting for me as a queerperson to be in these spaces,
but I, at the same time, feelreally passionate about trying
to move the needle a little bit.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, it does make sense, yeah, yeah.
What drew you to the work?
It's stuff.
What drew you to kind of wantto dig into this?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, it's kind of like how deep do we want to go?
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yes, deep as possible , deep as you can go in 23
minutes.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Okay, right, exactly.
So yeah, me being a queeridentifying person, growing up
in Indiana with a family thatwas not really like wouldn't
really talk about sexuality atall, let alone any like minority
sexual or gender experience.
So feeling just very likeconflicted myself about what is
(08:53):
going on for me, like how do Ibe a person of faith when I
don't feel like I belong at all?
So that being kind of mygrowing up, developmental
experience, and then going toundergrad it's a private
Christian school called theUniversity and it's okay, you've
(09:15):
heard of it.
It's in Tattanooga, tennessee,or near Tattanooga.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I used to work with Lee's students.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Oh really.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, when I was in Kansas City, we had a bunch of
Lee's students come out thereall the time because they were
building a prayer room out there, and so I trained a bunch of
the leaders of the prayer roomthat was there.
So interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
We should talk offline at some point, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I'm sure we know some of the same people yeah
probably.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
But I could just say my experience there was not
great and I encountered somelike traumatic events in
undergrad that were handled verypoorly, and I didn't even
(10:05):
really make some of thoseconnections until later on that
I'm doing this research and I'mlike why do I care so much
specifically about thisdevelopmental period for
undergrad students?
And then right now I'm doing myinternship at University
Counseling Center and Google isnot affirming and pretty
evangelical, kind ofconservative, but I'm still
(10:30):
saying all the time like I'mhere to take care of your queer
trans students.
I want to use those for them.
I want those clients to bereferred to me and to say that
publicly in these settings iskind of scary and at least kind
of draining.
People make faces.
But yeah, I think it feelsreally important to me to do
(10:55):
work that says no.
People have deep, importantfaith identities, spiritual
identities, and they're alsoqueer and trans.
That exists beautifully together.
In fact, a lot of us aremissing out by having those
(11:16):
people cut off from community.
So, yeah, individually,personally, for me it's like I
am that person, these not, youknow, disintegrated.
Everything connects and I wantto do work that recognizes that
(11:38):
that's happening for a lot ofpeople and and I think I feel
protected of some younger peoplewho want to have?
Faith and things like that.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I think that's really .
I think that's reallyinteresting when you think about
how, at that age, you know thatundergraduate age so much of
our life is wet cement and somuch of the way that we think
about ourselves, about the world, about God is wet cement.
Do you see a correlationbetween kind of some of these
ministry organizations andevangelical organizations and
(12:13):
their kind of obsession with,like, youth and young adults
sort of conferences andmessaging like?
What are your thoughts aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah, well, I think right away of again this shiny
happy people documentary and theways that we identify
vulnerable populations and tryto reach out to them and get
them to join a particular likeorganize around, a way of
believing your living communityand I do think that the kind of
(12:48):
liberal arts college I almostsaid the word agenda- but that's
what it is.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
It's so funny how they talk about the agenda that
they're fighting, but really theagenda is the one that they're
pushing.
Yeah, so interesting to me.
Yeah, you can say whatever youwant on this show guys.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
So, yeah, I do see that connection, yeah, and it
can be overwhelming to thinkabout honestly.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
How so.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Just like the amount of money that people spend I
think, like the way thatevangelicalism can kind of like
code switch Mm-hmm, yeah, soit's interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
I've never heard that before.
Even Joke-Alism can code switch.
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, I think, like we, you have like this way of
believing of organizing aroundcommunity, that maybe you're
raised up in that in your familysystem and then you put an
undergrad and then you have likeanother version of that.
(14:12):
Mm-hmm, yeah, what you'repursuing, or what the ultimate
good is, is still as maybeoppressive, but it's branded
differently, packageddifferently.
I think, like there's a lot ofalso progressive Christians that
do a similar thing, where, like, purity culture just takes a
(14:32):
shift, mm-hmm.
So like you're still focusingon purity, but maybe it's around
using like politically correctlanguage, or yeah, but you're
still not humanizing people,mm-hmm.
So I think, like the fruit canstill be the same.
I think that's what I mean bycode switching.
I'm kind of forgiving, I'm kindof processing this in real time
(14:55):
.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
But I think that's the code.
Switching that can happen islike purity culture just becomes
something else, or still a needfor control or there, or
hierarchy, or certainty, mm-hmmand so and we are drawn to
what's familiar to.
So again, the documentary orlistening to some other like
(15:21):
deconstruction materials.
Sometimes they're drawn to likefamiliar patterns, familiar
types of relationships orfamiliar ways of community, and
we don't even do it purpose asadults.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
So it's kind of like needing to do that healing work
where we let go of control andhierarchy and need for certainty
, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
And I think that's why I feel overwhelmed when I
think about that is becausethere are such big systems.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Right, yeah, yeah, and it's like they build on each
other.
It's like when we started theepisode you were talking about.
You know this idea that Imyself embed, and so it's almost
like when you start out with adepraved sense of self and like
or no sense of self.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
And then these messages come to you and you're
offered this forgiveness thatcomes from this person you never
met, but apparently you're introuble for something some
people did a long time ago whoate some fruit, and that's all
your fault, kind of too, and sonow it's your fault that God has
to kill his son, and then soyou better like worship and you
better receive this sacrifice,and there's so much that comes
(16:52):
at you like I think back tobeing 17 and getting the message
of the gospel and thinking well, I mean, of course I'm excited
that I'm saved, but I didn'tknow.
I was condemned at first.
You know, like they kind ofit's a very it's almost like
marketing, where they kind ofthey create the problem that
they're trying to solve, right,and so you're supposed to be
(17:16):
sort of grateful for this.
I'm wondering, though, becauseI know that for you, just like
with Ellison, you know you willhave a large family where you
all were homeschooled Right.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So and there's been a couple of people that I've come
in contact with as I've been,you know, talking about the book
and things like that who havethat background.
In particular, queerness andcoming out is a whole different
animal Because it really isexplosive in the family because
there is so much closeness andyou know, in some ways like
(17:51):
these homeschool families thatyou see sometimes even in the
IVIL they are insular, rightLike so they're.
You know they're not going tosecular colleges, they're not
going to secular schools.
Everyone they know is either intheir church or a part of their
like co-op group.
There isn't a whole lot ofexternal input in terms of the
(18:15):
kids lives, but they have thesereally close.
You know, sort of like tightknit families, and I know for
Ellison that it was that was areal painful part of this right
Part of coming in and sayingthis is who I am, this is my
name, and having to set thoseboundaries in a situation like
that.
(18:35):
Where do you think that thatcomes from?
I mean, there seems to be.
I talked to another girl acouple of weeks ago and it's the
same thing.
Her family was very close andshe's kind of just changed her
mind about Donald Trump.
She hasn't even touched on thequeerness yet, and it is like
dynamite in the family.
What is the way forward forfolks who have that background?
(18:57):
I mean, that's something that'sbeen relatively foreign to me,
but, as I've you know, I'vefallen in love with a home
schooler, so so I'm learning alot about that.
So, like what, what?
What do you think that comesfrom?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Hold on, Kyle.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
You're good.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Harlem Mommy's working right now.
Oh, sweetie, you're gonna haveto wait.
Okay, it's not an emergency,all right, so we'll jump back
into like where where you thinkthat comes from?
Sorry about that.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
You're good.
My mind sees so many differentlayers in that.
Yeah, and it's probably, hmm,yeah, I think of all these
different systems of oppressionwhiteness, patriarchy, dualism,
(19:58):
yes, you know all thesedifferent things that intersect
that, and then it's like kind oflike toxic individualism.
It's like, you know, it's justme, I'm a cowboy, I'm trying to
pay my own way, kind of thing.
Yeah, all those differentthings.
(20:19):
And the need for control it'sbest executed if things are
insular and you don't have.
You know it's, the best way tocontrol people is to kind of
like keep them inside of abubble and not allow them to be,
(20:42):
you know, tainted by otherbelief systems or other people
who are different from you.
And I think the whole coming outthing is so contradictory to
that, because then you say like,oh, there's people that are
different from us on the insideand that's a huge no, no, like
(21:06):
that.
That messes with the wholesystem, so people that want to
come out within your bubble areviewed as so threatening.
And so I think we have it'salmost like where does that come
from?
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Right, like, like, where did you get that from?
If we've closed all the windowsand all the doors, if we have,
you know, been in charge of whatyou watch, what you listen to,
what types of theology you'reexposed to, and you come to us
to say I'm queer, then it's kindof like who do you blame Unless
(21:42):
?
So at that point you have tolook at this person that you've
lived with your whole life orthat you've raised.
You've got to look that personin the eye and all of a sudden,
almost overnight, determine thatthere's someone that they're
not to make yourself feel betterabout your theology.
And that's what I've watchedhappen.
And it's really devastating,especially when there's no
(22:04):
outside input.
It's really no.
I feel like God is telling methat I'm okay To you.
Is that similar to kind of whatyour experience was?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I have a sister that'salso queer, and so both of us.
It was kind of very much like,yeah, and my family's a little
bit different than some maybe,in that they're more like sweep
(22:34):
things under the rug or don'trock the boat, and so masters at
like sins of omission, if youwill like, and so it was kind of
like we're going to hope thatthis goes away or we're just
going to continue forward andlike the system itself will take
care of staying in line orstaying good, but explode on you
(23:02):
because that's just not the waymy family did it.
Shame, yeah, but I mean, yeah,shame is pretty powerful on its
own without explicit messaging,so big motivator, so yeah, but I
(23:23):
think that's the beautifulthing about God and his belief
in like diversity of reflectionsof who God is is that it
actually can't be controlled andit can't be, like you know,
organized by an ideology or itjust doesn't work.
It's completely unmanageableand it will always like fall
(23:46):
apart.
And I think, yeah, no matterhow insular you are, it's like
human beings are just going tounapologetically like reflect
God, and so you know that's thesaving grace of it all, but it's
also for the for people thatare, you know, holders of a of a
(24:10):
aspect of God that is viewed asbad in whatever community
you're in, can be really painful, yeah, and hope people survive,
but sometimes we don't, youknow.
So I don't really even rememberwhat your question was per se
Like where does?
(24:30):
That.
Yeah, I think it's just thatthat God is diverse and creation
is diverse, and that can't becontained.
So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, certainly I'm wondering about the way forward
for folks who have that.
I do feel like that is a wholelike culture within
evangelicalism that I thinkpeople are not really aware of
how just inconvenient a queerkid in a homeschool family could
(25:03):
be.
And you watch so many things,so many hurtful things happen as
people are trying to makedecisions between being faithful
to what they believe is thetruth and then having to deal
with this person that's in frontof them, that is the same
person but is saying, hey, likeactually God accepts me, god
(25:24):
wants me this way, and to watchwhat people do in the name of
Jesus, the stories that I hear,it's really disheartening, it's
maddening and it really does putyou in a position of kind of
like saying you actually wantnothing to do with this religion
(25:45):
altogether, like if this iswhat faithfulness to your God
looks like to reject someone inthe name of Jesus, which I don't
.
So I don't even know how thatmakes sense to reject anyone in
the name of Jesus, or thatfaithfulness would mean that you
would write off your own kid,not come to their wedding, not
(26:05):
acknowledge their spouse, notacknowledge their kid, like
those types of things arehappening on levels that I think
would be like surprising forpeople and it really, it really
is a shame because it feels likevery much people are just stuck
in this bubble, like you'resaying, and at the same time,
(26:27):
that you can have compassionbecause it's like they're stuck
in a bubble, you know, likethere's not a whole lot of
opportunity besides, you knowpeople within that structure
having the courage and thehonesty to confront it from
within the structure and it is,it's just, it is.
It's very, very hard to watchand I think that I'm hoping that
(26:48):
typically, what starts tohappen is like one person begins
to be like well, I don't seethe fruit of what we're saying
is true, like in this person'slife.
You know and that's what Alisonand I appealed to our families
about Like would you look at thefruit of our relationship, the
fruit of our life?
And I know that, for for myparents, that was a helpful way
(27:12):
forward, being able to have thatconversation, and my mom is
starting to come around and haveconversations with me about
things and ask questions, so itgives me hope.
Do you feel like, where do yousee hope?
You know for situations likethis, are you and your family?
Are you guys good?
Are you estranged Like, how arethings?
And if not, do you see hopethere?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, so I see hope.
I think first and foremost in inhow I feel as a person and my
ability to be brave andcongruent in spaces and be in
(28:02):
places that I never thought Iwould be in terms of like
interpersonally, where I'm ableto just kind of say you know,
this is who I am, this is what Ibelieve to like a room of
people that it's a very crowd,and be like I'm fine and I don't
(28:23):
even need to take afternoon off, like you know, that kind of
thing, and I feel hope first inthat regard, where I'm at with
my family and I should.
I don't know if you're familiarwith this or if you're aware.
So like my sexuality isbisexual and I'm with a partner
(28:43):
that's a straight woman, so thiswhole like which this angers me
to no end, but like people willbe like oh, you picked the
right one, and so that's kind ofwhere a lot of my family will
land, or the narrative that theywill Some of them, sorry and I
(29:04):
have a big family, so people arein different places with that.
So, yeah, for me there's thiskind of like I have this
privilege because my familyaccepts me more than they would
if I was with a male partner ora partner that wasn't a straight
(29:25):
woman, but I also have thisconstant feeling of like
imposter syndrome or erasure oflike.
How you see me does not at allmatch my experience with the
world and it can be painful andI had like some version of
(29:48):
conversion therapy that, like myparents asked me to do when I
was 19, 20.
So there's all these kind oflike things that I work through
and I'm trying to navigate withmy family of like.
I know you see me this way as,like I arrived at where you
(30:09):
wanted me to be but, I feel thatway at all.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
And.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I've had painful conversations with my parents
and some conversations that Istill need to have, where I
would like to be extremely clearabout where I am and what I
believe, and so that work isstill ongoing, being able to
(30:37):
just kind of like voice thesethings in.
It's so funny.
I feel like a lot of us will gooff and do a ton of research,
get degrees, things like that,but the whole time we're
thinking about our family andlike I'm very far from my family
.
Now I'm out in LA and they'rein the West, but I think about
(31:00):
them every single day in regardto this conversation.
So it's like these parallel kindof narratives that happen, and
sometimes they intersect.
Sometimes I come up to them andI say, hey, like this is where
I'm at.
I really want to just be ableto tell you what I'm thinking,
feeling, believing.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Are they relatively receptive to that or?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
I think.
Well, again, it depends on thefamily member, but just going
with my parents, I would say notreally.
I think that there's such apull for, like, not rocking the
boat, not causing disruption,that a lot of guys get put into
(31:47):
this category of like I don'tneed to worry about this.
I heard that you said that.
But hey, you married a womanlike we wanted, wow.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
That's really hard Because in some ways it's almost
like there is a part of youridentity that is not being
acknowledged, you know, and thatcan feel hard.
How about, so your wife?
How was your wife with all ofthat?
Was it something that you kindof came out before you all got
married, or was it a situationwhere you realized afterwards
yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
So I came out before we got engaged and then we kind
of processed what some of thatmeant.
That was also, we were livingin Indiana at the time and then
we got married, moved to LA.
We got married 2019 and thenmoved to LA that same summer and
(32:45):
have had a lot of space now anda lot of invitation to explore,
like, what does it mean thatthis is my identity and this is
yours?
What does it mean that this isa mixed orientation and marriage
, which I like?
Sometimes I don't, but I thinksometimes it's a helpful term.
But so what does it mean?
(33:07):
That we're having verydifferent experiences in the
world and we communicate abouteverything, which I think is
very helpful, but it's time tofigure that out.
And then, yeah, there was alsoa point where we weren't
probably gonna make it Mm-hmm.
(33:28):
It was kind of height of thepandemic.
We were pretty isolated and ina new city, and so it was really
tricky to figure out.
How does all of this work?
Am I being true to myself?
Because I think here in LA too,there's a lot of pressure
(33:52):
sometimes on the other end whereit's like you need to know
exactly who you are and you needto have your life aligned with
that perfectly, and it didn'tfeel like there was room for me
to like figure out, you know Wowyeah, wow, that's very
interesting, like feeling like,well, you need the space to
actually get to know yourself.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I think that that's a work that I entered into after
getting married and realizing,oh wait, oh, there are aspects
of myself I did not know thatboth me and my spouse are being
introduced to, and so that's areally sacred process and I'm
glad that you guys are likeworking through what it means
(34:34):
for you to be fully you now andwhat that could mean in three
years and what that could meanin 30 years, and I just I think
that the work that is happeningin these mixed orientation
marriages and that's happeningbetween even just partners, it's
been really rich to see thetypes of conversations that are
(34:54):
having to be had at this time.
I'm really grateful that peopleare doing that.
But I'm gonna land our planeand ask you the three questions
I ask every guest, which is whatare you bringing from the
rubble?
So you know I've heard a littlebit about your story beforehand
, but if there was anythingworth keeping from before you
(35:15):
unleavened, what is that thing?
Is there anything that you'rebinging?
A TV show, a drink, a TV series?
And then what are some words wecan live by?
So whenever you're ready andyou feel like you wanna go in
any order, you can go ahead andgo.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Okay, so I'm ready, but I'll just take it slow, sure
, so what am I bringing from therubble?
Some kind of Actually you mightcry Some kind of belief in
innocence, because I think thatsometimes, like that I was
(36:02):
talking about the simplicity andthis sense of awe and wonder
about the world, or thoseexperiences of God like awe and
wonder.
I think that growing up andrealizing kind of all the
(36:25):
toxicity that we're swimming incan make you also deeply
mistrust in some things that arereally good.
So I don't know that I've fullyreclaimed that, but it feels
(36:46):
really important to reclaim thatsense of innocence.
On wonder, it can be reallyindicative of fully healing.
That would be a long journey,probably ongoing journey.
So yeah, I'll just say that.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
That's good, anything you're binging.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Binging.
I was trying to think myschedule has changed so much so
I'm kind of binging paperworkright now.
I get that that's been most ofmy time.
(37:38):
Yeah, I wish I was bingingother things, but haven't had
time for it at the moment.
I'm binging paperwork to me.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Binging paperwork.
That'll work.
That'll work.
Yeah, things are primed withthe honesty, for that for sure I
get that life Really going togive you an honest answer like
that.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I'm just looking at pieces of paper with black font
on them.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
As long as it's not comic sans, we're okay right.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah, it's usually time to throw in or something
anyway.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Give us some words.
Of web by Kyle.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, listen to your body.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Listen to your heart yeah.
It's okay.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Listen to yourself and then respond to what self is
telling you.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, it's really, really good.
I appreciate the work thatyou're doing.
I appreciate I can't wait toread more of your research and
what comes out with that.
I'm really glad that I had youon the show.
I think, Ella someone's right.
I think you brought aperspective that we haven't
heard yet onto the show.
I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Yeah, I'm like a therapist.
I'm not that public per se.
Listen to your podcast withEllison about not wanting to be
found.
I was like, yeah, that's me too.
There's things like Instagramthat's private because clients
(39:38):
stalk me.
I will say that my dissertationwill be published.
That's kind of like condensedarticle.
It should be out November.
Okay, october, november.
I can actually just follow upwith you Awesome, yeah and give
(40:00):
you information for any listenerthat would want to find that
work.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, I think that's the thing I would want people to
look for, not my social media.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, gotcha, so we'll be looking.
We'll want to look out for apaper from Dr Kyle Mitchell.
Hey.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Thank you for your hospitality and good questions
and good to meet you.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Likewise.
Thank you for listening thepicture.
Money in your heart is donateto Subquatcher Inc and clear the
path for black students today.
From the other side of toxic Christianity.
I found myself faced with onequestion, now what this podcast
is about that question?
We have conversations withfolks who are asking themselves
the same things.
We're picking up the pieces ofa fractured and fragmented faith
.
We're finding treasure in whatthe church called trash, beauty
(00:21):
and solidarity in people andplaces we were told to fear,
reject and dismiss.
I'm Tamee Spencer Helms, andthis is Life After Leaven.
What's up everybody?
Welcome back to this episode ofLife After Leaven.
I'm your host, tamee SpencerHelms, and this week I'm joined
by Kyle Mitchell.
I have just met Kyle.
(00:42):
He is friends with my spouse,and so I wanted to kind of talk
to him about some of the thingsthat he's studying in school,
what his background is and howthat might play into our season
this time.
So welcome Kyle.
Why don't you tell us who youare, what you do, where you're
from?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Sure, so my name is Kyle.
As Tamee said, I'm getting adoctorate in psychology and I'm
one year from being donestudying out at Fuller
Theological Seminary and Schoolof Psychology in Pasadena,
california.
But as I'll probably talk abouta little bit, I grew up in the
Midwest, in Indiana.
(01:21):
So, yeah, that's me, that'swhere I'm at and I'm glad to be
here, excited I'm glad you'rehere.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
So I'm going to ask you what I asked everyone what
was life like before and afteryou unleavened your faith?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, it's such a good question because I feel
like it was just the water I wasswimming in before.
The first thing that comes tomind is like viewing myself as
bad, like that was thefundamental, like before faith
unleavened I was bad, like myexistence was bad, my flesh was
(01:56):
bad, my identity as a queerperson was bad.
It was hard to trust instinctsor impulses, things like that.
So, yeah, and it's sad to thinkabout, it's hard to think about
how pervasive that was and howmuch it colored my experience.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
That feels like the before.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And then I think that there were things about it that
I miss sometimes, like thesimplicity of kind of like the
structure and the rules, and Iclearly know this is wrong or
this is right.
You know, some things didn'tinvolve as much critical thought
, which felt easy at the time,although it's not, as we know,
(02:41):
probably how we want to live.
But there's that aspect of ittoo, not better but simpler.
And then I think the flip sideof that is, after unleavening
faith, recognizing myself andreally trying to instill this
(03:02):
belief in my inherent goodness,that I exist and that that is
enough, like my being isinherently good, things I can
create, things that flow from meare good and expansive.
Yeah, and I think then, as Imentioned also, it does
(03:24):
sometimes feel more complicatedand complex and there's layers
to like your existence andthere's impacts that you have in
the world.
That like what comes out of youcan also have negative impacts.
So there's responsibility to it, and it's not just you, it's
not your individual existence,but, like you, are part of this
(03:44):
collective sort of impact andthat comes with grief or guilt,
or confusion, complexity, allthe things that make existence
just more complicated and not assimple, but probably more or
(04:05):
more whole.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Thank you for bringing that up, and I know
that my first introduction toyou was in a call that was
taking place between my spouseand their siblings you and your
siblings kind of processing thatdocumentary that came out the
shiny, happy people documentaryand in the midst of that
conversation, ellison looks atme and goes you need to
(04:32):
interview Kyle, and so I wouldlove, love, love, to hear more
about what it is that you'restudying and what you're looking
into as it relates to queernessand faith.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, so I am working on research about how to care
better for queer and transgenderstudents in the university,
setting specifically in likebased nonaffirming schools,
which is most I shouldn't saymost, but a lot of religiously
(05:04):
affiliated schools can becategorized nonaffirming and
recognizing that schools andpolicies may not change or that
slow change happens often.
How can we intervene, how canwe better understand what's
going on and how can people thatare in charge of student care
(05:26):
or are supposed to oversee that,how can we do a better job of
care for those queer and transstudents that are there, whether
we welcome them or not, orwhether we fully welcome them or
not?
Speaker 1 (05:41):
So, yeah, that's the focus of my research yeah.
So what I mean, what kinds ofthings have you dug into?
What have you found in yourresearch so far related to that?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is that
there's a lack of clarityoftentimes in these communities.
So one of the first steps thatI recommend for these
nonaffirming institutions isimprove your clarity about the
type of belonging that a queeror trans student might be able
(06:12):
to achieve Can one day work atthe institution?
Can they have a same sexboyfriend, girlfriend or partner
while they're?
So?
I think in general, there'sjust a need to clarify language
and clarify the levels ofbelonging that people can have,
(06:35):
and that'd be a starting pointfor improving care.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah.
So I mean, when you, whenyou've talked to some of these
organizations about theirpolicies around that, do you
find that it's possible forstudents to feel safe and cared
for in a nonaffirming space?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Right.
So it's so tricky, because howmuch can we really expect people
to feel that they belong ifthere's a non-affirming umbrella
that they're existing under?
But what we know is that a lotof students go to those spaces
anyway and they might not feelat a point in their development
(07:15):
that they can go to a collegethat would be more forming or a
secular college.
There's many reasons why.
That is Like my parents payingfor this college, or I don't
want to separate my faithintegration process from my
sexuality.
I want to believe that theybelong.
(07:35):
Even though this communityisn't endorsing my experience or
my identity, there's a aspectof it that I'm still seeking out
or I'm drawn to, or forwhatever reason I find myself
there, and so I think that it'sthe ideal that you know that
we're working in this scenario.
Absolutely not, and it'sextremely draining and extremely
(07:58):
exhausting for me as a queerperson to be in these spaces,
but I, at the same time, feelreally passionate about trying
to move the needle a little bit.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, it does make sense, yeah, yeah.
What drew you to the work?
It's stuff.
What drew you to kind of wantto dig into this?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, it's kind of like how deep do we want to go?
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yes, deep as possible , deep as you can go in 23
minutes.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Okay, right, exactly.
So yeah, me being a queeridentifying person, growing up
in Indiana with a family thatwas not really like wouldn't
really talk about sexuality atall, let alone any like minority
sexual or gender experience.
So feeling just very likeconflicted myself about what is
(08:53):
going on for me, like how do Ibe a person of faith when I
don't feel like I belong at all?
So that being kind of mygrowing up, developmental
experience, and then going toundergrad it's a private
Christian school called theUniversity and it's okay, you've
(09:15):
heard of it.
It's in Tattanooga, tennessee,or near Tattanooga.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I used to work with Lee's students.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Oh really.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, when I was in Kansas City, we had a bunch of
Lee's students come out thereall the time because they were
building a prayer room out there, and so I trained a bunch of
the leaders of the prayer roomthat was there.
So interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
We should talk offline at some point, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I'm sure we know some of the same people yeah
probably.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
But I could just say my experience there was not
great and I encountered somelike traumatic events in
undergrad that were handled verypoorly, and I didn't even
(10:05):
really make some of thoseconnections until later on that
I'm doing this research and I'mlike why do I care so much
specifically about thisdevelopmental period for
undergrad students?
And then right now I'm doing myinternship at University
Counseling Center and Google isnot affirming and pretty
evangelical, kind ofconservative, but I'm still
(10:30):
saying all the time like I'mhere to take care of your queer
trans students.
I want to use those for them.
I want those clients to bereferred to me and to say that
publicly in these settings iskind of scary and at least kind
of draining.
People make faces.
But yeah, I think it feelsreally important to me to do
(10:55):
work that says no.
People have deep, importantfaith identities, spiritual
identities, and they're alsoqueer and trans.
That exists beautifully together.
In fact, a lot of us aremissing out by having those
(11:16):
people cut off from community.
So, yeah, individually,personally, for me it's like I
am that person, these not, youknow, disintegrated.
Everything connects and I wantto do work that recognizes that
(11:38):
that's happening for a lot ofpeople and and I think I feel
protected of some younger peoplewho want to have?
Faith and things like that.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I think that's really .
I think that's reallyinteresting when you think about
how, at that age, you know thatundergraduate age so much of
our life is wet cement and somuch of the way that we think
about ourselves, about the world, about God is wet cement.
Do you see a correlationbetween kind of some of these
ministry organizations andevangelical organizations and
(12:13):
their kind of obsession with,like, youth and young adults
sort of conferences andmessaging like?
What are your thoughts aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah, well, I think right away of again this shiny
happy people documentary and theways that we identify
vulnerable populations and tryto reach out to them and get
them to join a particular likeorganize around, a way of
believing your living communityand I do think that the kind of
(12:48):
liberal arts college I almostsaid the word agenda- but that's
what it is.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
It's so funny how they talk about the agenda that
they're fighting, but really theagenda is the one that they're
pushing.
Yeah, so interesting to me.
Yeah, you can say whatever youwant on this show guys.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
So, yeah, I do see that connection, yeah, and it
can be overwhelming to thinkabout honestly.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
How so.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Just like the amount of money that people spend I
think, like the way thatevangelicalism can kind of like
code switch Mm-hmm, yeah, soit's interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
I've never heard that before.
Even Joke-Alism can code switch.
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, I think, like we, you have like this way of
believing of organizing aroundcommunity, that maybe you're
raised up in that in your familysystem and then you put an
undergrad and then you have likeanother version of that.
(14:12):
Mm-hmm, yeah, what you'repursuing, or what the ultimate
good is, is still as maybeoppressive, but it's branded
differently, packageddifferently.
I think, like there's a lot ofalso progressive Christians that
do a similar thing, where, like, purity culture just takes a
(14:32):
shift, mm-hmm.
So like you're still focusingon purity, but maybe it's around
using like politically correctlanguage, or yeah, but you're
still not humanizing people,mm-hmm.
So I think, like the fruit canstill be the same.
I think that's what I mean bycode switching.
I'm kind of forgiving, I'm kindof processing this in real time
(14:55):
.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
But I think that's the code.
Switching that can happen islike purity culture just becomes
something else, or still a needfor control or there, or
hierarchy, or certainty, mm-hmmand so and we are drawn to
what's familiar to.
So again, the documentary orlistening to some other like
(15:21):
deconstruction materials.
Sometimes they're drawn to likefamiliar patterns, familiar
types of relationships orfamiliar ways of community, and
we don't even do it purpose asadults.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
So it's kind of like needing to do that healing work
where we let go of control andhierarchy and need for certainty
, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
And I think that's why I feel overwhelmed when I
think about that is becausethere are such big systems.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Right, yeah, yeah, and it's like they build on each
other.
It's like when we started theepisode you were talking about.
You know this idea that Imyself embed, and so it's almost
like when you start out with adepraved sense of self and like
or no sense of self.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
And then these messages come to you and you're
offered this forgiveness thatcomes from this person you never
met, but apparently you're introuble for something some
people did a long time ago whoate some fruit, and that's all
your fault, kind of too, and sonow it's your fault that God has
to kill his son, and then soyou better like worship and you
better receive this sacrifice,and there's so much that comes
(16:52):
at you like I think back tobeing 17 and getting the message
of the gospel and thinking well, I mean, of course I'm excited
that I'm saved, but I didn'tknow.
I was condemned at first.
You know, like they kind ofit's a very it's almost like
marketing, where they kind ofthey create the problem that
they're trying to solve, right,and so you're supposed to be
(17:16):
sort of grateful for this.
I'm wondering, though, becauseI know that for you, just like
with Ellison, you know you willhave a large family where you
all were homeschooled Right.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So and there's been a couple of people that I've come
in contact with as I've been,you know, talking about the book
and things like that who havethat background.
In particular, queerness andcoming out is a whole different
animal Because it really isexplosive in the family because
there is so much closeness andyou know, in some ways like
(17:51):
these homeschool families thatyou see sometimes even in the
IVIL they are insular, rightLike so they're.
You know they're not going tosecular colleges, they're not
going to secular schools.
Everyone they know is either intheir church or a part of their
like co-op group.
There isn't a whole lot ofexternal input in terms of the
(18:15):
kids lives, but they have thesereally close.
You know, sort of like tightknit families, and I know for
Ellison that it was that was areal painful part of this right
Part of coming in and sayingthis is who I am, this is my
name, and having to set thoseboundaries in a situation like
that.
(18:35):
Where do you think that thatcomes from?
I mean, there seems to be.
I talked to another girl acouple of weeks ago and it's the
same thing.
Her family was very close andshe's kind of just changed her
mind about Donald Trump.
She hasn't even touched on thequeerness yet, and it is like
dynamite in the family.
What is the way forward forfolks who have that background?
(18:57):
I mean, that's something that'sbeen relatively foreign to me,
but, as I've you know, I'vefallen in love with a home
schooler, so so I'm learning alot about that.
So, like what, what?
What do you think that comesfrom?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Hold on, Kyle.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
You're good.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Harlem Mommy's working right now.
Oh, sweetie, you're gonna haveto wait.
Okay, it's not an emergency,all right, so we'll jump back
into like where where you thinkthat comes from?
Sorry about that.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
You're good.
My mind sees so many differentlayers in that.
Yeah, and it's probably, hmm,yeah, I think of all these
different systems of oppressionwhiteness, patriarchy, dualism,
(19:58):
yes, you know all thesedifferent things that intersect
that, and then it's like kind oflike toxic individualism.
It's like, you know, it's justme, I'm a cowboy, I'm trying to
pay my own way, kind of thing.
Yeah, all those differentthings.
(20:19):
And the need for control it'sbest executed if things are
insular and you don't have.
You know it's, the best way tocontrol people is to kind of
like keep them inside of abubble and not allow them to be,
(20:42):
you know, tainted by otherbelief systems or other people
who are different from you.
And I think the whole coming outthing is so contradictory to
that, because then you say like,oh, there's people that are
different from us on the insideand that's a huge no, no, like
(21:06):
that.
That messes with the wholesystem, so people that want to
come out within your bubble areviewed as so threatening.
And so I think we have it'salmost like where does that come
from?
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Right, like, like, where did you get that from?
If we've closed all the windowsand all the doors, if we have,
you know, been in charge of whatyou watch, what you listen to,
what types of theology you'reexposed to, and you come to us
to say I'm queer, then it's kindof like who do you blame Unless
(21:42):
?
So at that point you have tolook at this person that you've
lived with your whole life orthat you've raised.
You've got to look that personin the eye and all of a sudden,
almost overnight, determine thatthere's someone that they're
not to make yourself feel betterabout your theology.
And that's what I've watchedhappen.
And it's really devastating,especially when there's no
(22:04):
outside input.
It's really no.
I feel like God is telling methat I'm okay To you.
Is that similar to kind of whatyour experience was?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I have a sister that'salso queer, and so both of us.
It was kind of very much like,yeah, and my family's a little
bit different than some maybe,in that they're more like sweep
(22:34):
things under the rug or don'trock the boat, and so masters at
like sins of omission, if youwill like, and so it was kind of
like we're going to hope thatthis goes away or we're just
going to continue forward andlike the system itself will take
care of staying in line orstaying good, but explode on you
(23:02):
because that's just not the waymy family did it.
Shame, yeah, but I mean, yeah,shame is pretty powerful on its
own without explicit messaging,so big motivator, so yeah, but I
(23:23):
think that's the beautifulthing about God and his belief
in like diversity of reflectionsof who God is is that it
actually can't be controlled andit can't be, like you know,
organized by an ideology or itjust doesn't work.
It's completely unmanageableand it will always like fall
(23:46):
apart.
And I think, yeah, no matterhow insular you are, it's like
human beings are just going tounapologetically like reflect
God, and so you know that's thesaving grace of it all, but it's
also for the for people thatare, you know, holders of a of a
(24:10):
aspect of God that is viewed asbad in whatever community
you're in, can be really painful, yeah, and hope people survive,
but sometimes we don't, youknow.
So I don't really even rememberwhat your question was per se
Like where does?
(24:30):
That.
Yeah, I think it's just thatthat God is diverse and creation
is diverse, and that can't becontained.
So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, certainly I'm wondering about the way forward
for folks who have that.
I do feel like that is a wholelike culture within
evangelicalism that I thinkpeople are not really aware of
how just inconvenient a queerkid in a homeschool family could
(25:03):
be.
And you watch so many things,so many hurtful things happen as
people are trying to makedecisions between being faithful
to what they believe is thetruth and then having to deal
with this person that's in frontof them, that is the same
person but is saying, hey, likeactually God accepts me, god
(25:24):
wants me this way, and to watchwhat people do in the name of
Jesus, the stories that I hear,it's really disheartening, it's
maddening and it really does putyou in a position of kind of
like saying you actually wantnothing to do with this religion
(25:45):
altogether, like if this iswhat faithfulness to your God
looks like to reject someone inthe name of Jesus, which I don't
.
So I don't even know how thatmakes sense to reject anyone in
the name of Jesus, or thatfaithfulness would mean that you
would write off your own kid,not come to their wedding, not
(26:05):
acknowledge their spouse, notacknowledge their kid, like
those types of things arehappening on levels that I think
would be like surprising forpeople and it really, it really
is a shame because it feels likevery much people are just stuck
in this bubble, like you'resaying, and at the same time,
(26:27):
that you can have compassionbecause it's like they're stuck
in a bubble, you know, likethere's not a whole lot of
opportunity besides, you knowpeople within that structure
having the courage and thehonesty to confront it from
within the structure and it is,it's just, it is.
It's very, very hard to watchand I think that I'm hoping that
(26:48):
typically, what starts tohappen is like one person begins
to be like well, I don't seethe fruit of what we're saying
is true, like in this person'slife.
You know and that's what Alisonand I appealed to our families
about Like would you look at thefruit of our relationship, the
fruit of our life?
And I know that, for for myparents, that was a helpful way
(27:12):
forward, being able to have thatconversation, and my mom is
starting to come around and haveconversations with me about
things and ask questions, so itgives me hope.
Do you feel like, where do yousee hope?
You know for situations likethis, are you and your family?
Are you guys good?
Are you estranged Like, how arethings?
And if not, do you see hopethere?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, so I see hope.
I think first and foremost in inhow I feel as a person and my
ability to be brave andcongruent in spaces and be in
(28:02):
places that I never thought Iwould be in terms of like
interpersonally, where I'm ableto just kind of say you know,
this is who I am, this is what Ibelieve to like a room of
people that it's a very crowd,and be like I'm fine and I don't
(28:23):
even need to take afternoon off, like you know, that kind of
thing, and I feel hope first inthat regard, where I'm at with
my family and I should.
I don't know if you're familiarwith this or if you're aware.
So like my sexuality isbisexual and I'm with a partner
(28:43):
that's a straight woman, so thiswhole like which this angers me
to no end, but like people willbe like oh, you picked the
right one, and so that's kind ofwhere a lot of my family will
land, or the narrative that theywill Some of them, sorry and I
(29:04):
have a big family, so people arein different places with that.
So, yeah, for me there's thiskind of like I have this
privilege because my familyaccepts me more than they would
if I was with a male partner ora partner that wasn't a straight
(29:25):
woman, but I also have thisconstant feeling of like
imposter syndrome or erasure oflike.
How you see me does not at allmatch my experience with the
world and it can be painful andI had like some version of
(29:48):
conversion therapy that, like myparents asked me to do when I
was 19, 20.
So there's all these kind oflike things that I work through
and I'm trying to navigate withmy family of like.
I know you see me this way as,like I arrived at where you
(30:09):
wanted me to be but, I feel thatway at all.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
And.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I've had painful conversations with my parents
and some conversations that Istill need to have, where I
would like to be extremely clearabout where I am and what I
believe, and so that work isstill ongoing, being able to
(30:37):
just kind of like voice thesethings in.
It's so funny.
I feel like a lot of us will gooff and do a ton of research,
get degrees, things like that,but the whole time we're
thinking about our family andlike I'm very far from my family
.
Now I'm out in LA and they'rein the West, but I think about
(31:00):
them every single day in regardto this conversation.
So it's like these parallel kindof narratives that happen, and
sometimes they intersect.
Sometimes I come up to them andI say, hey, like this is where
I'm at.
I really want to just be ableto tell you what I'm thinking,
feeling, believing.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Are they relatively receptive to that or?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
I think.
Well, again, it depends on thefamily member, but just going
with my parents, I would say notreally.
I think that there's such apull for, like, not rocking the
boat, not causing disruption,that a lot of guys get put into
(31:47):
this category of like I don'tneed to worry about this.
I heard that you said that.
But hey, you married a womanlike we wanted, wow.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
That's really hard Because in some ways it's almost
like there is a part of youridentity that is not being
acknowledged, you know, and thatcan feel hard.
How about, so your wife?
How was your wife with all ofthat?
Was it something that you kindof came out before you all got
married, or was it a situationwhere you realized afterwards
yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
So I came out before we got engaged and then we kind
of processed what some of thatmeant.
That was also, we were livingin Indiana at the time and then
we got married, moved to LA.
We got married 2019 and thenmoved to LA that same summer and
(32:45):
have had a lot of space now anda lot of invitation to explore,
like, what does it mean thatthis is my identity and this is
yours?
What does it mean that this isa mixed orientation and marriage
, which I like?
Sometimes I don't, but I thinksometimes it's a helpful term.
But so what does it mean?
(33:07):
That we're having verydifferent experiences in the
world and we communicate abouteverything, which I think is
very helpful, but it's time tofigure that out.
And then, yeah, there was alsoa point where we weren't
probably gonna make it Mm-hmm.
(33:28):
It was kind of height of thepandemic.
We were pretty isolated and ina new city, and so it was really
tricky to figure out.
How does all of this work?
Am I being true to myself?
Because I think here in LA too,there's a lot of pressure
(33:52):
sometimes on the other end whereit's like you need to know
exactly who you are and you needto have your life aligned with
that perfectly, and it didn'tfeel like there was room for me
to like figure out, you know Wowyeah, wow, that's very
interesting, like feeling like,well, you need the space to
actually get to know yourself.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I think that that's a work that I entered into after
getting married and realizing,oh wait, oh, there are aspects
of myself I did not know thatboth me and my spouse are being
introduced to, and so that's areally sacred process and I'm
glad that you guys are likeworking through what it means
(34:34):
for you to be fully you now andwhat that could mean in three
years and what that could meanin 30 years, and I just I think
that the work that is happeningin these mixed orientation
marriages and that's happeningbetween even just partners, it's
been really rich to see thetypes of conversations that are
(34:54):
having to be had at this time.
I'm really grateful that peopleare doing that.
But I'm gonna land our planeand ask you the three questions
I ask every guest, which is whatare you bringing from the
rubble?
So you know I've heard a littlebit about your story beforehand
, but if there was anythingworth keeping from before you
(35:15):
unleavened, what is that thing?
Is there anything that you'rebinging?
A TV show, a drink, a TV series?
And then what are some words wecan live by?
So whenever you're ready andyou feel like you wanna go in
any order, you can go ahead andgo.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Okay, so I'm ready, but I'll just take it slow, sure
, so what am I bringing from therubble?
Some kind of Actually you mightcry Some kind of belief in
innocence, because I think thatsometimes, like that I was
(36:02):
talking about the simplicity andthis sense of awe and wonder
about the world, or thoseexperiences of God like awe and
wonder.
I think that growing up andrealizing kind of all the
(36:25):
toxicity that we're swimming incan make you also deeply
mistrust in some things that arereally good.
So I don't know that I've fullyreclaimed that, but it feels
(36:46):
really important to reclaim thatsense of innocence.
On wonder, it can be reallyindicative of fully healing.
That would be a long journey,probably ongoing journey.
So yeah, I'll just say that.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
That's good, anything you're binging.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Binging.
I was trying to think myschedule has changed so much so
I'm kind of binging paperworkright now.
I get that that's been most ofmy time.
(37:38):
Yeah, I wish I was bingingother things, but haven't had
time for it at the moment.
I'm binging paperwork to me.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Binging paperwork.
That'll work.
That'll work.
Yeah, things are primed withthe honesty, for that for sure I
get that life Really going togive you an honest answer like
that.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I'm just looking at pieces of paper with black font
on them.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
As long as it's not comic sans, we're okay right.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah, it's usually time to throw in or something
anyway.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Give us some words.
Of web by Kyle.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, listen to your body.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Listen to your heart yeah.
It's okay.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Listen to yourself and then respond to what self is
telling you.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, it's really, really good.
I appreciate the work thatyou're doing.
I appreciate I can't wait toread more of your research and
what comes out with that.
I'm really glad that I had youon the show.
I think, Ella someone's right.
I think you brought aperspective that we haven't
heard yet onto the show.
I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Yeah, I'm like a therapist.
I'm not that public per se.
Listen to your podcast withEllison about not wanting to be
found.
I was like, yeah, that's me too.
There's things like Instagramthat's private because clients
(39:38):
stalk me.
I will say that my dissertationwill be published.
That's kind of like condensedarticle.
It should be out November.
Okay, october, november.
I can actually just follow upwith you Awesome, yeah and give
(40:00):
you information for any listenerthat would want to find that
work.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, I think that's the thing I would want people to
look for, not my social media.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, gotcha, so we'll be looking.
We'll want to look out for apaper from Dr Kyle Mitchell.
Hey.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Thank you for your hospitality and good questions
and good to meet you.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Likewise.
Thank you for listening thepicture.
Money in your heart is donateto Subquatcher Inc and clear the
path for black students today.
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