July 4, 2024 • 44 mins
Have you ever felt the weight of an entire belief system bearing down on you? Join us on "Life After 11" as we, Tamisa Spencer-Helms, Robert, and Tamara, reunite to share our deeply personal journey from the confines of evangelicalism to the liberating embrace of a more inclusive faith. We kick things off by catching up on our lives and careers, but quickly shift gears to reflect on the mental and emotional toll of our evangelical past. From the absurdities of purity culture to the ultimate liberation we experienced, Tamara's humorous yet poignant declaration of leaving ministry for good sets the tone for a candid conversation about our ongoing healing process.
As we navigate our post-evangelical faith journeys, we discuss how our understanding of spirituality has evolved. Influenced by Black church traditions and womanist theologians, our conversation sheds light on the joy of worship in affirming spaces and the shedding of white evangelical pressures. We unpack the resilience and genuine devotion that remains despite our disillusionment with past teachings, celebrating a mature, unwavering love for God that has only grown stronger through life's hardships.
Throughout the episode, we also explore the immense power of imagination and the importance of rest, creativity, and pleasure. Personal anecdotes bring to life the physical and emotional exhaustion we faced within evangelical spaces, and we reflect on the liberating feeling of leaving toxic environments. Highlighting the significance of enduring friendships and the beauty of life beyond evangelicalism, we conclude with a sense of gratitude and joy, celebrating the camaraderie we share. Join us for a thought-provoking and heartfelt discussion that underscores the resilience and beauty of life after evangelicalism.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, I promise I won't talk about it.
All right, what's up everybody.
Welcome to this episode of LifeAfter 11.
I'm your host, tamisaSpencer-Helms, and I'm joined by
the original crew, the Where'sthe Lie crew, from years and
years ago, because we're all oldnow, we've all moved on.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I'm younger.
Hey guys, for the record, I'myounger, Just wanted to put that
out there.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And everyone is back in the same fashion.
It is so good to be with y'all.
These are the homies I've known.
I don't know how long we'veknown each other, at least what
like 15 years, something likethat.
Anyway, we did ministry a whileback together and somehow just
can't get rid of each other, andI'm so happy to have y'all in
(00:42):
my life.
So welcome Robert and Tamara,the original co-hosts of Where's
the Lie.
Say hello and introduceyourselves.
Where are you?
How are you occupying spacethese days?
Start with you, t.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's deep man.
I didn't know it was going tostart out the gate like that.
No, I am in Florida, back home,born and raised in Florida.
So I'm back home.
I am pursuing my career incorporate America, unfortunately
at the moment, but that is justthe way I'm occupying space.
Yeah that's all I got.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Hello brother mom.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Hey, hey, hey, hey.
I enjoy y'all.
I am a PhD student.
Try my best to get throughthese academic streets and
divest from white supremacy.
I think how I'm occupying spacethese days is June.
(01:38):
Jordan has this line where shesays I am black alive and
looking back at you.
That's where I'm at these days.
I don't know date.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So you all are my favorite people to cut up with
when it comes to the foolishnessthat is evangelicalism.
I know that we all dipped ourtoe in at one point and we're
even out here in these streetsbelieving it at one point.
So I think what would be cool.
One of the things I want to dowith this season in particular
this season is obviously becauseI turned 40, I am basically
(02:12):
making this whole season aboutme.
All the things I love, all thepeople I love, all the topics
I'm interested in, all thethings I want to learn about,
and so one of the things thatwas important to me was bring on
people that I love to haveconversations with, just in
general, and so I want to talk alittle bit about.
Obviously, we're in a spaceright now a lot of people feel
exiled.
A lot of Black people exitedevangelicalism between, probably
(02:35):
, trayvon and Donald Trump.
By the time George Floydhappened, most people were out.
But I kind of want to talk alittle bit about the experience
of being Black in evangelicalismwhat that's like for us, what
are the things that we have towork through, what are the
things we have to quiet down,and what does it feel like now
to be out of that.
What have you recovered sinceyou left?
(02:56):
So I'll let either one of y'allgo.
What was it like to be in it?
What's it like to be out?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
That's an emotional question, I think.
What was it like to be in it?
What's it like to be out?
That's an emotional question, Ithink.
What was it like to be in it?
Y'all this will go left if Iget too emotional, so I'm just
going to keep centered it.
I feel like it broke my.
My mind, like my, not just likemy mental health was low, it
was broken, it was shattered,and so I felt like there were
(03:26):
all of these rules that wereboth ambiguous and clear at the
same time, right Like of of, oftrying to walk this line to
prove that you're a Christian,to prove that you're a holy, and
I just there was something.
My body doesn't operate thatway, and so collapsing myself to
(03:49):
fit into this box that wasn'tdesigned for me was nonsense.
I'll give a perfect examplepurity culture.
I did not grow up like that andI didn't grow up in the church.
I grew up as a.
So people are like I kiss, dateand goodbye.
What is this nonsense?
(04:10):
Or every man's battle where Iwould be in these groups where
men were like I thought about awoman sexually.
Today I'm thinking what thehell?
I don't know if we can cuss onthis podcast, so I'm not going
to, most definitely, cuss onthis podcast.
Oh, okay, because I have apotty mouth.
So, yeah, you do, yeah, I do.
I was like what the fuck isthis?
(04:30):
I the things that people feltwere sinful were none of the
things that were concerns ofmine.
I was concerned with eating, Iwas concerned with, like, trying
to.
I was concerned with thesethings and people were like wow,
what do you do when you thinkabout women sexually?
(04:53):
I'm like yeah.
That's being in it, Then I thinkbeing yeah like being Getting.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I don't repent anymore of that, well, well well
.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Well, listen, I think being out of it has been a slow
process, right?
Like removing yourself doesn'tmean you remove the thought
processes and all of thebehavior that went into being in
bondage, right.
And so, for me, every year, Icannot believe how clear my mind
(05:33):
is Like when I'm not concernedwith all that bullshit.
Like my mind is so clear.
It's silence up here.
I can, yeah, so let me go there.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Go ahead, tamar, I'm going to ask you, tamar, you
know it's funny because of youknow exiting ministry and you
know working through thatprocess of exiting ministry
thinking like, oh my gosh, thisis what I'm going to be doing
for the rest of my life, tonever again.
I don't care who comes to me, Idon't care who talked to me.
(06:06):
Never again.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Not even Jesus on the white horse child.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Let me tell you I was like look, you're going to have
to do something.
A miracle, not even Jesus withthe garment stained red.
I hate you, I hate you so muchComing up, go ahead.
I can't talk to you um comingup, go ahead.
Um, I think I think for mecoming out of that swirl and you
(06:34):
know, hitting, you know mycontext is corporate america
right now, do you know what I?
mean, like I, everything I do isabout image and you have to
look a certain way.
You have to look a certain way,you have to sound a certain way
, you have to be political, youhave to be, you know, diplomatic
and all this different stuff.
And I realized I'd never beenthat my entire life.
And so the box that I was, youknow, trying to be in, like
(06:58):
Robert said, when I was inevangelicalism, never worked.
I was always called therebellious one.
I could never, ever fit.
I was always called therebellious one, even when I
wasn't being rebellious, I wasrebellious.
And so I think I've come to theconclusion of I am who I am.
I accept who I am.
(07:21):
I will always question asininebeliefs, I will always push back
against these thoughts of youhave to be this way, because I
don't see it in the Bible, youknow, funny enough.
So I grew up in the church I'mtalking about missionary Baptist
, you know singing in the choir,the deacons leading worship,
(07:44):
all this different stuff.
I actually went back to a lotof that All of a sudden, the
stuff that I threw away becausethe Black church wasn't enough
Right.
And then I realized I was like,why have I always believed that
my people weren't enough.
And that was where I gotconfronted with the white
(08:08):
evangelicalism in me, where Inever believed that my people
were enough or we were subpar inour understanding of who God is
.
We're subpar in our theologyand so I actually.
When I came out of ministry andwhite evangelicalism, I went
back to my good old roots ofbeing missionary Baptist, with a
church fan and the aircondition not working.
(08:30):
You know what I mean.
That's what I went back to thescriptures that I was raised in,
the memorization, the stuff andthe viewpoint of Black people
on certain scriptures that Igrew up in.
Do you know what I mean?
And so that's actually where Iwent and that's where I found my
peace, and it was back in thecradle.
(08:52):
It was back in the cradle ofAfrica, like it really was.
It was that idea, you know it's.
You know because I remembergrowing up and it's funny, but
growing up in church they hadthe white Jesus in the front and
the black Jesus with dreads inthe back.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
It was interesting and I always remember thinking
but the black Jesus with thedreads makes more sense than the
white I don't know what thatwas Jesus looked like.
You blow him and he falls overJesus, and I remember wrestling
with that as a child and then Iwent right back to that Russell
from childhood and grapplingwith all that stuff and so I
(09:35):
think, coming out of whiteevangelicalism, I honestly just
found the purity of the gospel.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, to me I'm so curious for you.
Like you know, at a formeriteration of your life you were
really concerned with being afriend of Jesus, right Like
being like that ever since I'veknown you, that was like the
banner.
Yeah, Like that was like and itwas.
You know, I was talking tosomebody about this recently,
using you as an example, likeyou're one of the most devoted
(10:09):
people that I've known in mylife, and so there was this
constant like I got to beJesus's friend and what I feel
in you these years is like itfeels like you realize, oh,
Jesus has always been my friendnow, so what do you think?
Where are you at with it?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm ex-evangelical.
I'm out here, I think, wearinga light jacket of Christianity.
I think that the idea of comingback to the cradle I love that,
Tamara, because I feel like theonly ways that I'm coming near
Jesus these days are at theguidance of womenists, Black
(10:51):
church, womenist theologians.
Those are the only people thatwill bring me within any kind of
proximity to anything calledChristian at this point.
Because, you're right, I was sodeeply formed by white
evangelicalism and then myoverachieving ass and my desire
to please.
It was just a really bad likekind of combination.
(11:13):
So for me to feel for the firsttime like I don't even care, I
mean to get to a point whereit's like I don't care if God
sends me to hell, I don't carewhat y'all think Like those
things are very new for me.
And in the midst of that,realizing, yes, that like Jesus
has been with me, like me andJesus are friends, We've been
friends, and that feels reallybeautiful, to feel like I don't
have to like name it in a way,but at the same time feeling
(11:37):
like there is this way thatscripture still shows up for me.
It's still kind of like framesthings that happened for me in
my life, Like I was thinking,the other day I was at Pride in
the Pews.
It was in Atlanta and it was a.
It was basically it's anonprofit dedicated to helping
black churches go on the journeyto becoming affirming and I was
(11:59):
there.
They were singing total praise.
I mean they were doing FredHamlin.
They were singing total praise.
I mean they were doing FredHamlin Like it was.
It was the first time I've been,like, yeah, in church, like
pacing up and down the hall andlike screaming and worshiping
with my body, um, for the firsttime, and it was.
It was a sister's chapel, so itwasn't necessarily a church,
(12:20):
but it was like if I'm comingnear Christianity, it will only
be through this door and it feltreally good to feel like there
was a part of sort of likeyou're saying, Tamar, this Black
church tradition that willalways be my roots and that I
can be OK with that and holdthat without having to feel a
pressure to explain it, um,explain it.
(12:47):
Um.
It's just been really beautifulto be able to hold and to think
about, um, specifically theblack church and what they
created.
I mean what they conjured overhere in terms of how they made
sense of Jesus and that kind ofan experience in this country,
and I'm like, yeah, who wouldpart with that?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Like I'm not parting with that and I'm like, yeah,
who would part with that?
Like I'm not parting with thatIs that what you mean, Rob?
Yeah, yeah, it is.
You sound like our advisor, DrGreen.
You sound exactly like youwould say I could tell you've
been dialoguing.
Yeah, I think for me I've seenthat piece come over you now and
(13:27):
like like you were trying tostruggle your whole life, like
God, notice me, I'm your friend,I'm your friend and you're just
real chill about it these daysand for me I all of those former
cares that white evangelicalismtold me were the litmus test to
(13:48):
loving God Child, those aregone by the wayside right now.
I don't understand God thesedays actually at all.
I'm going to be honest.
But I love God more than I everhave and I truly mean that.
Y'all asking me, y'all asked mesome shit, I don't know.
I mean I got opinions but likeI'm in a whole PhD program, but
(14:09):
I love God more now than I everhave.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, you know.
Some of it though too, Ibelieve, for us is age.
I think some of the justgrowing up out of that mess and
like being in our 40s now andbeing like okay, whatever that
was okay, and being like okay,but life is real, like just let
(14:38):
that sink in right.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So that's your evangelical self.
Life is real.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
I repeat life's hard.
Like I remember I was sittingone day, I was just talking to
the lord and I was like, bro,life is hard, true.
Like just just that.
That was all my prayer.
Like that I'm out like this,isn't it?
Speaker 3 (14:59):
funny that the people that were the hardest on us in
those evangelical spaces, whopreached the hardest, who told
us we weren't living up, ain't?
They lives a fucking mess now.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
A mess and I don't want to be petty.
Somebody bring me a meal and mydad's in the popcorn.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
America's got a problem.
Listen, a lot of those peoplewho are telling us if you don't
do this, you will not serve Godin your 30s, you won't serve God
and you won't survive.
A lot of them.
I'm going to just keep it hush.
I'm going to keep it serious,Keep it safe.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Can you look at me?
Speaker 3 (15:38):
now?
Yeah, I still love God.
How about that?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
But here's the thing, though, because we actually
genuinely love God.
How about that?
But here's the thing, though,because we actually genuinely
love God.
Like you realize that, becausewe all, because I'm looking at
some of my friends who I lovethem, I still hang out with them
, still talk to them, you know,visit them, all this different
stuff.
But like they're like yeah, Idon't bind to God anymore and I
was like fair, I get it, like Ilegit.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I tried to run away a few times.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
And I was like no, I like legit get it.
And you know, I rememberthinking back in a day I would
be like praying on my faceinterceding tears.
They're going to hell.
And now I'm just like I trustthe Holy Spirit.
Hell, and now I'm just like Itrust the Holy Spirit.
It'll work out.
Like, literally, that has beenmore.
I feel more of a confidence inthe ability of the Lord to
(16:33):
actually lead your life and keepyou than I ever have my entire
life, Because I'm like life issuper hard and if you, at 56
years old on your deathbed Idon't know why I chose 56, Jesus
, that's not that far away Ifyou 85, if you 85 on your
deathbed and you're like Jesus,I love you, Amen.
(16:54):
Like literally, that's all Igot.
I was like I don't care anymore, Like I don't.
I don't care what it looks like, I don't have an expectation or
a idea of what your faith walkshould look like.
I legit don't, Because I'mtrying to figure out what the
hell I'm doing.
I'd be able to tap dancingsometimes Like I hope this works
(17:14):
.
You know what I mean.
I'm trying to figure stuff outfor myself and, like
piggybacking off of Robert, Iliterally have no answers, but I
feel the most clarity withoutknowledge that I ever have my
entire life.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
So good the most clarity without knowledge.
And it's like you again, Ithink this is that rootedness in
the motherland of the justtruth is embodied we.
We know truth.
Right, we already know truthand the idea that, like you,
would need clarity to to get toit, I think was the trick.
(17:53):
And the trick is that truth isvery like.
Truth is very conspicuous whenyou come.
Even people that we weresupposed to be, like they
probably going to hell, was likewait a minute, but that song is
saying something more than weknow.
Or wait a minute, like we'renot supposed to be, like they
probably going to hell.
It's like wait a minute, butthat song is saying something
more than we know.
Or wait a minute, we're notsupposed to be reading this or
watching this, but there'ssomething more going on here and
(18:13):
I'm starting to find that,really, if you love truth, I
don't see how people who lovethe truth do not come into
contact with each other at onepoint or another, even if they
don't call God, even if theydon't even call God by the same
name, like that's the partthat's a trip.
To me is like the.
I think the hardest part or thescariest part, the part that
(18:35):
felt illegal was the exclusivismfor me Right?
So like the exclusivism ofChristianity.
If I don't talk about it inthat way, I am unfaithful and
again, like Rob was saying, likethis I wanting to be faithful
and wanting to be a friend ofJesus, and like I'm not fitting
to be out here lying on Jesus,like at that point in my life,
(18:55):
and then it's just like Jesus islike I'm used to being lied on.
It's all good, just do yourbest and be honest.
You know, like it's literallylike all you can do and I'm
feeling this real call.
But it just feels really sweetto feel like the black church is
where I fell in love with Godand the black church is where
(19:16):
I've landed Right In terms ofthat way of framing God.
It just feels very beautifuland kind of God to say, yeah,
you belong here and all of yougets to come this time.
That feels really special to me.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Yeah, I was thinking that, as you were talking like
one thing that I've done in myreclamation process is divest
and resign from being on God'sdefense team.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
And the peace that covers your mind.
Come on, listen first off.
The benefits suck for being onGod's defense team.
There's no 401k, it's ragged.
The 401k is not headed likethat.
I think for me, in hearing bothof your stories as you're
(20:07):
talking about this, call backwhat I realized I always had a
spirituality that never fitinside of a church, so I didn't
grow up in the church, I grew upas an atheist, but there was a
spirituality that I was reachingfor and a lot of it was around
fantasy and imagination andwhere are we going?
(20:31):
What happens when people like,make good things together, like.
Those were thoughts I washaving at six years old, and so
for me, a lot of my reclamationprocess has been finding God and
Star Trek discovery, or comicbooks, or finding it in
literature.
I love you know, right here,sitting right here, toni
(20:51):
Morrison's book Beloved.
That is a sacred text.
I find God there.
I truly do.
I'll read that clearing scene.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Just not the movie, right yeah, oh not the movie.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
No, I'm scared, I'm scared, I'm a punk.
Sorry about the clearance.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I would love to watch that.
Snuck watching it and hadnightmares.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, but the clearing scene when Baby Suggs
Holy, invites All of the blackmen and women and children In
there and says, laugh, cry,dance.
You know, I find God there,right?
And so I realized myimagination was always the
avenue, that I had to conceiveof something beyond myself, and
(21:36):
God sanctifies that rather thantells me not to do that or tries
to only locate it in the Bible.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
That's really good.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Go ahead.
I'm sorry, no no, I was aboutto ask you to jump in Because I
was going to say to me that'sliberation, because I am a
sci-fi nerd.
Okay, like anything andeverything, sci-fi fantasy, like
I love it, I eat it up and Ialways have and I've always had
a really big imagination.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
And when you're in white evangelicalism they leash
you like it's because they don'thave an imagination themselves
and it's corrupt and morallybankrupt.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
But go ahead, yeah no , I totally agree with you,
because I can sit and think offor hours on space, like you,
tell me something that wouldmake me weep.
I'm talking about feel thepresence of the Lord, the stars.
Bro, I'm gone Like I, I, Iwould be like, oh, god is real.
Do you know what I mean?
The cosmos.
But then it's more than thatand it's like what if there were
other beings, like what if this?
(22:42):
And then what if they builtthis?
And I don't see that as ungodly, unholy, unrighteous.
Do you know what I mean?
Cause then cause then.
What do you do with CS Lewis?
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Well, that's the that is so that's about as far as
they go.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yes, I know, know, but when you start actually
reading his stuff, his stuff,some of his stuff is a little
wild, and so what I don'tunderstand is why the yeah, yes,
I do yeah, you do well no, no,because I I know what it is.
I was like we as a people are sofreaking powerful that if they
(23:24):
were to allow us to use ourimaginations, we would rule them
.
And why would we need like?
Why would they want us to rulethem?
So now let's suppress.
Because here's the thing weknow this, we know that slavery
wasn't just a physical thing.
We know it was a mental thing.
But even within the mental, itwas the imagination.
We weren't even allowed todream of freedom.
(23:45):
We weren't even allowed todream of freedom.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
We weren't even allowed, did it anyway right,
like I remember reading thisbook.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
It was one of my favorite books as a kid, and I
don't quote, I can't rememberthe name right now, of course,
but it was about these slaves inthe field and they were working
in the field and all of asudden they begin to fly away
and it's I mean, it's a kid'sbook and it's such beautiful
illustrations and just I meanthe imagery of being able to fly
(24:14):
away.
And I understand, okay, well,they wanted to get away from
slavery and all sorts of stuff.
But I was like no, it was theimagination, it was the freedom
of their imaginations that we'renot allowed in evangelicalism
and it'sism, and it's very, it'svery unfortunate, but I think
that's why we exited and I thinkthat's where the artists you
(24:35):
know how they, oh, you know howcertain groups we were a part of
talked about, um, talked about,you know, uh, the artists, the
black artists that are going tocome forth and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I hate you, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
We can do a part.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
No let's just keep going.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I do want to say to that, like I think you know
Emily Towns talks about, likethe imagination of white
supremacy and whiteness, andright, Like it's not able to
bring forth generativity becauseall the fears and the supremacy
is wed up in that thing, Right.
And so part of the bondage ofwhite evangelicalism is you
(25:26):
can't even conceive of how freeyou can be.
You don't even know the lifethat you could have.
And I'll give this.
One example is I remember youknow a dear brother, Trey, a
couple of years ago posted onTwitter yeah, shout out to Trey.
He posted on Twitter this ideaof I can't wait till we're
(25:46):
really free because God neverdesigned us to work.
And when I tell you, the whitepastors, the leaders, people
were in them comments so mad, itwas the anger for me, right,
Like they had all.
No, if we don't work, what willwe do all?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
day.
What do you mean?
I will quit my job right now.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
They were saying like you're a heretic, how can you
be a pastor?
No, god wants people to work.
They could not even conceive inthe spirit of their mind life
beyond work.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I can't See, man, the amount of rage towards rest.
That is a very bad symptom ofwhiteness.
Like to be that enraged aboutrest I mean, just think, as a
pastor but like what issometimes called a shepherd huh,
say it.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
The scriptures say rest like I don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
You know good right now the bible is just.
It is a whole nother thingthese days.
But listen, the police didn'teven do what it said I mean.
So you know they're not readingthe Bible like that.
There's no way on.
Like the amount of imaginebeing that mad about somebody
saying we were created for rest.
Just imagine being in charge ofpeople's souls in one way or
(27:07):
another, people's spiritualreality in one way or another,
and you get that mad about theprospect of rest.
Everybody in your care is indanger.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
And we were, we were.
Can you think about I wanty'all to localize when you
actually stepped away from theinstitution of white
evangelicalism.
Didn't you feel tired?
Weren't you like literally Imean physically it took me years
to recover, Like I was so tiredfor years and I realized it's
(27:41):
exactly what you're saying to me.
People put that yoke on mebecause they had that framework
of God that God is an enemy.
It's not just rest y'all, godis an enemy of pleasure.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Indeed.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Like God is antithetical to pleasure, and
serving God is opposite.
You know, I'm thinking of Ageof Pleasure, Janelle Monae right
now.
But like pleasure is thisdemonized thing that we're not
meant to possess.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
We should just you got me thinking about Janet
Jackson, the principles ofpleasure.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
I'm sorry.
I was thinking of PleasurePrinciple and it was coming in
my mind right.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I only listen to Christian music and gospel music
and gospel music.
So, see, there you go.
See, you know what.
On that point, I remember beingin ministry and, uh, someone
saying to me, one of the leaderssaying you'll rest when you die
(28:44):
, and and I was like what thehell?
That's the only time we get torest and that was the reality
that they lived in, which is whya lot of them are.
Even their physical frames aretore up.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
It's giving chattel slavery babes.
It's giving chattel slave likeyou can rest when you die.
Is giving master slave chattelslave like you can rest when you
die.
Is giving master slave chattelslavery in the sweet by and by.
You can rest no.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Jesus I mean this particular person did suckle at
the teat of the master, so youknow.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
She's on the porch fixing the show, mister, listen,
okay, I'm thinking a lot aboutsomething that you said, rob,
this idea of obviously, peoplenot wanting to rest but the, the
weariness that you feel whenyou leave, I was thinking about
(29:46):
when you named it.
I I was reminded of the actualfeeling and you know, I felt
that feeling when I leftministry and evangelical spaces,
when I left my ex-husband andwhen I left toxic jobs.
I felt the same feeling of likethrowing off heavy garments and
being exhausted but alsodelighted, like like being able
(30:11):
to breathe.
And to me, I'm feeling like,I'm wondering about folks who
are like right on the edge ofcause.
One of the things I loved aboutwhen Is the Lie was like we were
grappling, like we were in thebeginning stages of this
grappling, and thoseconversations are so precious to
me because you can hear like usclinging to God and also being
(30:36):
honest about life being hard andshit not being fair.
And so when I think about itnow, a couple of years out from
then, at this point now, youknow, a couple of years out from
then, at this point, you knowall of us are a little more
settled, we're a little more atease.
So I'm thinking about people onthe precipice of like, where we
were right, who might belistening.
What would you say to thosepeople?
(30:57):
How would you encourage them interms of moving forward?
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Yeah, I would say one .
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
I didn't have the vision toknow how deep I was and how
locked up my mind was.
So it me, and that is like abible text for me, and it's like
been an anchor and coming allthe way out, like my heart is
(31:35):
not peripheral to me, at leastright like to me, and so part of
my, my unfolding, unbecomingand becoming again.
It's like no, that pleasureprinciple, that who am I really?
My heart isn't peripheral to meand I gave my heart to white
evangelicalism in ways that I'mashamed of, but it's okay, I'm
(32:02):
finding it.
You know I'm finding it.
You know, yeah, that's what Iwould say.
That'm finding it.
You know I'm finding it.
You know, yeah, that's what Iwould say.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
That's so good.
How about you, Fran?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I think I think there are a few things that kind of
roll in my head, cause I'm likesitting here really trying to
think what would I say tosomeone?
And it would be be patient withyourself to someone, and it
would be be patient withyourself acknowledge yourself,
acknowledge your feelings, yourthoughts, your, your, your, your
fears, your, your anger, yourhatred, your, you know.
(32:38):
Usually in christianity it'slike don't wallow in those
things and just you know, givethem all to the Lord, don't give
them to the Lord, sit in them.
I want to say sit there and beokay with not being okay and
being okay all at the same time,and then understand that there
(32:59):
is a real grief process Likethis isn't like a going back to
what Robert said.
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
This is grief.
Like you are going to havewaves and waves of grief.
You're going to feel shame,you're going to feel anger,
you're going to feel hatred,you're going to like we, you're,
(33:19):
you're going.
You're going to feel likesomething is dying.
Um, so good, but it is dying itis dying but but the whole idea
of the resurrection and andthere's something about the
resurrection it wasn't, you know, when Jesus died resurrection
and all that stuff, like thinkabout it, like that it really
(33:41):
will be a resurrection.
It would be like the Phoenixcoming out of the ashes kind of
aspect.
Resurrection.
It would be like the Phoenixcoming out of the ashes kind of
aspect.
But it's, it's a, it's amarathon.
You gotta be able to face thegrief, and a lot of my friends
that I've known have run from itinstead of running into it, and
when they've run from itthey've lost themselves further
(34:01):
and they don't know where theyare now.
And so I think I would just say, confronted, have one to two
friends I'm talking about one totwo Like that would look at you
and be like I know and it'd beokay and will hold space for you
(34:22):
and will be that safe space foryou.
I think those are the things,because I'm thinking about
what's gotten me through,literally, is the grief.
Going through the grief, thetherapy, the friendships, the
process, and it's been, it'sbeen what, seven years now and
I'm just starting to feel okay,like it's not a, it's a marathon
(34:47):
, it really is.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah, I'm thinking about when you're talking about
resurrection, and one thing thatI think stayed with me was the
way that passages used to pop inmy head, but this, that first
Corinthians three passage aboutit is the incorruptible things
that are raised, and thinkingabout how this, these waves of
grief like break over us andthey wash away false selves,
(35:15):
right like they wash away waysof being that were not authentic
.
And if, if they're notauthentic, I don't, I don't
think that they're holy, and soI'm wondering about like this
process of letting these wavesbreak over us is actually so
good for us, because youactually end up finding out like
(35:37):
who you actually are, and so itfeels very much like a
resurrection, absolutely.
It feels like being raised tonew life and raised in a
different way, you know, likeyou're just in a different.
You're a different person.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And that's okay.
And I think that's what we getafraid of is like, because I
remember being like, well, Idon't hear God's voice like I
used to.
And then it's not that Iquestioned whether well, some
things I questioned was Jesus,but you know, some things really
was okay.
But I'm in a different place inmy relationship with God, just
like if I was married I'd be ina different place with my spouse
(36:16):
.
You're not the same person youwere when you first met.
You're a different individualand you have to be OK with that
growth and that difference.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Yeah, I want to sneak this in here.
Like you know, like, as I waslistening to both of you, I
think what has helped me isbeing is meeting myself with
curiosity.
For so long I was trying to be,you know, essentially I was
trying to be a white man, likelet's just be clear Like it
(36:49):
wasn't.
I was trying to be many things,but that's not who I am.
And so now, part of thatresurrection and that washing
that you're talking about Tamiz,washing that you're talking
about Tamiz I've had to be sogracious to myself and I told
myself 15 years ago, you don'tknow who you are yet, and you?
(37:09):
know, even in the past seven,eight years.
I'm like you don't know yet youknow and so which feels
embarrassing because I'm 40 andI should, but I feel like I'm
just now.
I love the skin I'm in.
I love who I have become.
I actually even love the pastiterations of myself.
The funny thing is the Robertfrom 15 years ago, 20 years ago,
(37:33):
he would hate who I've become.
I have grace for that persontoo, right, like I know you
would hate me, you would thinkthat I'm heretical, you would
think that I'm not serious.
And, baby, I love that aboutyou.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Like I love you even there, right, and so making
peace with each younger Roberthas really helped me to say I
love the skin I'm in today.
I really do.
I'll be in here.
Beyonce just came out with anew song.
I was going to sneak it in.
I was in here.
When I tell you, I was in hereline dancing this morning.
(38:13):
The funny thing is I wasfeeling God's presence.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, when Beyonce was singing.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I don't know about all that first of all, actually
let me do this live on on theair.
Okay, let's wrap this up, baby,I'm doing this live and on the
air.
You two clown me over the queen.
I just want to say I'm takingit back.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Y'all.
No, tamiz, don't lie to thesefolks, don't do that Y'all told
me Beyonce was Illuminati.
We didn't say that.
We did say you were doing toomuch Hold on.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Alexa's mad Hold on.
Alexa's mad Hold on.
Talked about the Beyonce, soAlexa came up.
What was you saying?
Speaker 3 (39:04):
now, fran, tell the truth and shame the devil.
Shame, it wasn't just Beyonce,although we did.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Lauryn Hill.
I've always been on Lauryn Hill.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
I love.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Lauryn Hill unplugged .
Speaker 3 (39:18):
We talk a lot it's cause that album sucked.
But first of all, rob, sorry,sorry, let's wrap this up.
So where do we go from here,friends?
Speaker 2 (39:31):
oh wait, I do want to say one thing, and it's more of
a, it's not a challenge, butit's more of like a comfort
thing.
I want to say to people who arecoming out of evangelicalism
and trying to figure outeverything it's OK if you can't
read the Bible, it's OK if youtake a break, it's OK if because
(39:51):
I remember there was a timewhere I would open the passages
of the scriptures that I'vealways loved, you know, and I
would literally hear the voiceof different pastors and leaders
and I could not hear God'svoice or my voice and I would
just cry and I would haveanxiety attacks.
It's okay if you can't read theBible right now.
Let yourself off the hook.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yeah, and I'm going to sneak one more in there too
there is life after whiteevangelicalism.
There's a whole world out there, and I didn't know that.
you know, it was scary when Iwas leaving, and we're talking
about beliefs, bodyconsciousness, all these things
that we suffered exhaustion, but, but in order to leave, we left
(40:34):
community, we left people thatwe would have called you know,
our ride or die friends.
We love people that we mourn tothis day.
Right, there's a whole worldout there to experience and
explore, and people who willlove you, who you have not met
yet, and I wish somebody wouldhave told me like, baby is scary
(40:55):
right now.
There's a whole world out here.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
It's better to be alive than alone yes that's a
jump.
So let me say this, friends,I'll be corny.
So just thinking about how longwe've known each other and
thinking of how many differentseasons and like bank accounts,
right like that we had to walkjust seeing each other, just
(41:25):
seeing each other in all ofthese different spaces, I just
feel like saying, just offeringgratitude to God for the
faithfulness, because it'ssomething to sit across from
your friends and y'all lookmoisturized and happy and in
your skin, and it's like I'veseen you in other places, in
(41:45):
other seasons.
I've seen you be pained andhurt and angry, and so to see
how, how good we look, we lookgood.
I'm going to just say that welook really good and I'm proud
of us and I'm just really gladthat that, uh, like we had
Christina on here and Dr.
Dr Cleveland said not everybodymakes it to this point, right,
(42:09):
as you resurrect.
So to have people there everytime you resurrect, those are
good friends, you know.
So I'm just, I'm just gratefulthat I know you and that you
came on the show.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Thank you, Tamish.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
And I was right about Beyonce.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Never, girl, stop this recording before we beat
you.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Thank you for listening to pick your money in
your heart is donate tosubcluster, ink and clear the
path for black students today.
All right, I promise I won't talk about it.
All right, what's up everybody.
Welcome to this episode of LifeAfter 11.
I'm your host, tamisaSpencer-Helms, and I'm joined by
the original crew, the Where'sthe Lie crew, from years and
years ago, because we're all oldnow, we've all moved on.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I'm younger.
Hey guys, for the record, I'myounger, Just wanted to put that
out there.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And everyone is back in the same fashion.
It is so good to be with y'all.
These are the homies I've known.
I don't know how long we'veknown each other, at least what
like 15 years, something likethat.
Anyway, we did ministry a whileback together and somehow just
can't get rid of each other, andI'm so happy to have y'all in
(00:42):
my life.
So welcome Robert and Tamara,the original co-hosts of Where's
the Lie.
Say hello and introduceyourselves.
Where are you?
How are you occupying spacethese days?
Start with you, t.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's deep man.
I didn't know it was going tostart out the gate like that.
No, I am in Florida, back home,born and raised in Florida.
So I'm back home.
I am pursuing my career incorporate America, unfortunately
at the moment, but that is justthe way I'm occupying space.
Yeah that's all I got.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Hello brother mom.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Hey, hey, hey, hey.
I enjoy y'all.
I am a PhD student.
Try my best to get throughthese academic streets and
divest from white supremacy.
I think how I'm occupying spacethese days is June.
(01:38):
Jordan has this line where shesays I am black alive and
looking back at you.
That's where I'm at these days.
I don't know date.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So you all are my favorite people to cut up with
when it comes to the foolishnessthat is evangelicalism.
I know that we all dipped ourtoe in at one point and we're
even out here in these streetsbelieving it at one point.
So I think what would be cool.
One of the things I want to dowith this season in particular
this season is obviously becauseI turned 40, I am basically
(02:12):
making this whole season aboutme.
All the things I love, all thepeople I love, all the topics
I'm interested in, all thethings I want to learn about,
and so one of the things thatwas important to me was bring on
people that I love to haveconversations with, just in
general, and so I want to talk alittle bit about.
Obviously, we're in a spaceright now a lot of people feel
exiled.
A lot of Black people exitedevangelicalism between, probably
(02:35):
, trayvon and Donald Trump.
By the time George Floydhappened, most people were out.
But I kind of want to talk alittle bit about the experience
of being Black in evangelicalismwhat that's like for us, what
are the things that we have towork through, what are the
things we have to quiet down,and what does it feel like now
to be out of that.
What have you recovered sinceyou left?
(02:56):
So I'll let either one of y'allgo.
What was it like to be in it?
What's it like to be out?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
That's an emotional question, I think.
What was it like to be in it?
What's it like to be out?
That's an emotional question, Ithink.
What was it like to be in it?
Y'all this will go left if Iget too emotional, so I'm just
going to keep centered it.
I feel like it broke my.
My mind, like my, not just likemy mental health was low, it
was broken, it was shattered,and so I felt like there were
(03:26):
all of these rules that wereboth ambiguous and clear at the
same time, right Like of of, oftrying to walk this line to
prove that you're a Christian,to prove that you're a holy, and
I just there was something.
My body doesn't operate thatway, and so collapsing myself to
(03:49):
fit into this box that wasn'tdesigned for me was nonsense.
I'll give a perfect examplepurity culture.
I did not grow up like that andI didn't grow up in the church.
I grew up as a.
So people are like I kiss, dateand goodbye.
What is this nonsense?
(04:10):
Or every man's battle where Iwould be in these groups where
men were like I thought about awoman sexually.
Today I'm thinking what thehell?
I don't know if we can cuss onthis podcast, so I'm not going
to, most definitely, cuss onthis podcast.
Oh, okay, because I have apotty mouth.
So, yeah, you do, yeah, I do.
I was like what the fuck isthis?
(04:30):
I the things that people feltwere sinful were none of the
things that were concerns ofmine.
I was concerned with eating, Iwas concerned with, like, trying
to.
I was concerned with thesethings and people were like wow,
what do you do when you thinkabout women sexually?
(04:53):
I'm like yeah.
That's being in it, Then I thinkbeing yeah like being Getting.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I don't repent anymore of that, well, well well
.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Well, listen, I think being out of it has been a slow
process, right?
Like removing yourself doesn'tmean you remove the thought
processes and all of thebehavior that went into being in
bondage, right.
And so, for me, every year, Icannot believe how clear my mind
(05:33):
is Like when I'm not concernedwith all that bullshit.
Like my mind is so clear.
It's silence up here.
I can, yeah, so let me go there.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Go ahead, tamar, I'm going to ask you, tamar, you
know it's funny because of youknow exiting ministry and you
know working through thatprocess of exiting ministry
thinking like, oh my gosh, thisis what I'm going to be doing
for the rest of my life, tonever again.
I don't care who comes to me, Idon't care who talked to me.
(06:06):
Never again.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Not even Jesus on the white horse child.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Let me tell you I was like look, you're going to have
to do something.
A miracle, not even Jesus withthe garment stained red.
I hate you, I hate you so muchComing up, go ahead.
I can't talk to you um comingup, go ahead.
Um, I think I think for mecoming out of that swirl and you
(06:34):
know, hitting, you know mycontext is corporate america
right now, do you know what I?
mean, like I, everything I do isabout image and you have to
look a certain way.
You have to look a certain way,you have to sound a certain way
, you have to be political, youhave to be, you know, diplomatic
and all this different stuff.
And I realized I'd never beenthat my entire life.
And so the box that I was, youknow, trying to be in, like
(06:58):
Robert said, when I was inevangelicalism, never worked.
I was always called therebellious one.
I could never, ever fit.
I was always called therebellious one, even when I
wasn't being rebellious, I wasrebellious.
And so I think I've come to theconclusion of I am who I am.
I accept who I am.
(07:21):
I will always question asininebeliefs, I will always push back
against these thoughts of youhave to be this way, because I
don't see it in the Bible, youknow, funny enough.
So I grew up in the church I'mtalking about missionary Baptist
, you know singing in the choir,the deacons leading worship,
(07:44):
all this different stuff.
I actually went back to a lotof that All of a sudden, the
stuff that I threw away becausethe Black church wasn't enough
Right.
And then I realized I was like,why have I always believed that
my people weren't enough.
And that was where I gotconfronted with the white
(08:08):
evangelicalism in me, where Inever believed that my people
were enough or we were subpar inour understanding of who God is
.
We're subpar in our theologyand so I actually.
When I came out of ministry andwhite evangelicalism, I went
back to my good old roots ofbeing missionary Baptist, with a
church fan and the aircondition not working.
(08:30):
You know what I mean.
That's what I went back to thescriptures that I was raised in,
the memorization, the stuff andthe viewpoint of Black people
on certain scriptures that Igrew up in.
Do you know what I mean?
And so that's actually where Iwent and that's where I found my
peace, and it was back in thecradle.
(08:52):
It was back in the cradle ofAfrica, like it really was.
It was that idea, you know it's.
You know because I remembergrowing up and it's funny, but
growing up in church they hadthe white Jesus in the front and
the black Jesus with dreads inthe back.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
It was interesting and I always remember thinking
but the black Jesus with thedreads makes more sense than the
white I don't know what thatwas Jesus looked like.
You blow him and he falls overJesus, and I remember wrestling
with that as a child and then Iwent right back to that Russell
from childhood and grapplingwith all that stuff and so I
(09:35):
think, coming out of whiteevangelicalism, I honestly just
found the purity of the gospel.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, to me I'm so curious for you.
Like you know, at a formeriteration of your life you were
really concerned with being afriend of Jesus, right Like
being like that ever since I'veknown you, that was like the
banner.
Yeah, Like that was like and itwas.
You know, I was talking tosomebody about this recently,
using you as an example, likeyou're one of the most devoted
(10:09):
people that I've known in mylife, and so there was this
constant like I got to beJesus's friend and what I feel
in you these years is like itfeels like you realize, oh,
Jesus has always been my friendnow, so what do you think?
Where are you at with it?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm ex-evangelical.
I'm out here, I think, wearinga light jacket of Christianity.
I think that the idea of comingback to the cradle I love that,
Tamara, because I feel like theonly ways that I'm coming near
Jesus these days are at theguidance of womenists, Black
(10:51):
church, womenist theologians.
Those are the only people thatwill bring me within any kind of
proximity to anything calledChristian at this point.
Because, you're right, I was sodeeply formed by white
evangelicalism and then myoverachieving ass and my desire
to please.
It was just a really bad likekind of combination.
(11:13):
So for me to feel for the firsttime like I don't even care, I
mean to get to a point whereit's like I don't care if God
sends me to hell, I don't carewhat y'all think Like those
things are very new for me.
And in the midst of that,realizing, yes, that like Jesus
has been with me, like me andJesus are friends, We've been
friends, and that feels reallybeautiful, to feel like I don't
have to like name it in a way,but at the same time feeling
(11:37):
like there is this way thatscripture still shows up for me.
It's still kind of like framesthings that happened for me in
my life, Like I was thinking,the other day I was at Pride in
the Pews.
It was in Atlanta and it was a.
It was basically it's anonprofit dedicated to helping
black churches go on the journeyto becoming affirming and I was
(11:59):
there.
They were singing total praise.
I mean they were doing FredHamlin.
They were singing total praise.
I mean they were doing FredHamlin Like it was.
It was the first time I've been,like, yeah, in church, like
pacing up and down the hall andlike screaming and worshiping
with my body, um, for the firsttime, and it was.
It was a sister's chapel, so itwasn't necessarily a church,
(12:20):
but it was like if I'm comingnear Christianity, it will only
be through this door and it feltreally good to feel like there
was a part of sort of likeyou're saying, Tamar, this Black
church tradition that willalways be my roots and that I
can be OK with that and holdthat without having to feel a
pressure to explain it, um,explain it.
(12:47):
Um.
It's just been really beautifulto be able to hold and to think
about, um, specifically theblack church and what they
created.
I mean what they conjured overhere in terms of how they made
sense of Jesus and that kind ofan experience in this country,
and I'm like, yeah, who wouldpart with that?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Like I'm not parting with that and I'm like, yeah,
who would part with that?
Like I'm not parting with thatIs that what you mean, Rob?
Yeah, yeah, it is.
You sound like our advisor, DrGreen.
You sound exactly like youwould say I could tell you've
been dialoguing.
Yeah, I think for me I've seenthat piece come over you now and
(13:27):
like like you were trying tostruggle your whole life, like
God, notice me, I'm your friend,I'm your friend and you're just
real chill about it these daysand for me I all of those former
cares that white evangelicalismtold me were the litmus test to
(13:48):
loving God Child, those aregone by the wayside right now.
I don't understand God thesedays actually at all.
I'm going to be honest.
But I love God more than I everhave and I truly mean that.
Y'all asking me, y'all asked mesome shit, I don't know.
I mean I got opinions but likeI'm in a whole PhD program, but
(14:09):
I love God more now than I everhave.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, you know.
Some of it though too, Ibelieve, for us is age.
I think some of the justgrowing up out of that mess and
like being in our 40s now andbeing like okay, whatever that
was okay, and being like okay,but life is real, like just let
(14:38):
that sink in right.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So that's your evangelical self.
Life is real.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
I repeat life's hard.
Like I remember I was sittingone day, I was just talking to
the lord and I was like, bro,life is hard, true.
Like just just that.
That was all my prayer.
Like that I'm out like this,isn't it?
Speaker 3 (14:59):
funny that the people that were the hardest on us in
those evangelical spaces, whopreached the hardest, who told
us we weren't living up, ain't?
They lives a fucking mess now.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
A mess and I don't want to be petty.
Somebody bring me a meal and mydad's in the popcorn.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
America's got a problem.
Listen, a lot of those peoplewho are telling us if you don't
do this, you will not serve Godin your 30s, you won't serve God
and you won't survive.
A lot of them.
I'm going to just keep it hush.
I'm going to keep it serious,Keep it safe.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Can you look at me?
Speaker 3 (15:38):
now?
Yeah, I still love God.
How about that?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
But here's the thing, though, because we actually
genuinely love God.
How about that?
But here's the thing, though,because we actually genuinely
love God.
Like you realize that, becausewe all, because I'm looking at
some of my friends who I lovethem, I still hang out with them
, still talk to them, you know,visit them, all this different
stuff.
But like they're like yeah, Idon't bind to God anymore and I
was like fair, I get it, like Ilegit.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I tried to run away a few times.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
And I was like no, I like legit get it.
And you know, I rememberthinking back in a day I would
be like praying on my faceinterceding tears.
They're going to hell.
And now I'm just like I trustthe Holy Spirit.
Hell, and now I'm just like Itrust the Holy Spirit.
It'll work out.
Like, literally, that has beenmore.
I feel more of a confidence inthe ability of the Lord to
(16:33):
actually lead your life and keepyou than I ever have my entire
life, Because I'm like life issuper hard and if you, at 56
years old on your deathbed Idon't know why I chose 56, Jesus
, that's not that far away Ifyou 85, if you 85 on your
deathbed and you're like Jesus,I love you, Amen.
(16:54):
Like literally, that's all Igot.
I was like I don't care anymore, Like I don't.
I don't care what it looks like, I don't have an expectation or
a idea of what your faith walkshould look like.
I legit don't, Because I'mtrying to figure out what the
hell I'm doing.
I'd be able to tap dancingsometimes Like I hope this works
(17:14):
.
You know what I mean.
I'm trying to figure stuff outfor myself and, like
piggybacking off of Robert, Iliterally have no answers, but I
feel the most clarity withoutknowledge that I ever have my
entire life.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
So good the most clarity without knowledge.
And it's like you again, Ithink this is that rootedness in
the motherland of the justtruth is embodied we.
We know truth.
Right, we already know truthand the idea that, like you,
would need clarity to to get toit, I think was the trick.
(17:53):
And the trick is that truth isvery like.
Truth is very conspicuous whenyou come.
Even people that we weresupposed to be, like they
probably going to hell, was likewait a minute, but that song is
saying something more than weknow.
Or wait a minute, like we'renot supposed to be, like they
probably going to hell.
It's like wait a minute, butthat song is saying something
more than we know.
Or wait a minute, we're notsupposed to be reading this or
watching this, but there'ssomething more going on here and
(18:13):
I'm starting to find that,really, if you love truth, I
don't see how people who lovethe truth do not come into
contact with each other at onepoint or another, even if they
don't call God, even if theydon't even call God by the same
name, like that's the partthat's a trip.
To me is like the.
I think the hardest part or thescariest part, the part that
(18:35):
felt illegal was the exclusivismfor me Right?
So like the exclusivism ofChristianity.
If I don't talk about it inthat way, I am unfaithful and
again, like Rob was saying, likethis I wanting to be faithful
and wanting to be a friend ofJesus, and like I'm not fitting
to be out here lying on Jesus,like at that point in my life,
(18:55):
and then it's just like Jesus islike I'm used to being lied on.
It's all good, just do yourbest and be honest.
You know, like it's literallylike all you can do and I'm
feeling this real call.
But it just feels really sweetto feel like the black church is
where I fell in love with Godand the black church is where
(19:16):
I've landed Right In terms ofthat way of framing God.
It just feels very beautifuland kind of God to say, yeah,
you belong here and all of yougets to come this time.
That feels really special to me.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Yeah, I was thinking that, as you were talking like
one thing that I've done in myreclamation process is divest
and resign from being on God'sdefense team.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
And the peace that covers your mind.
Come on, listen first off.
The benefits suck for being onGod's defense team.
There's no 401k, it's ragged.
The 401k is not headed likethat.
I think for me, in hearing bothof your stories as you're
(20:07):
talking about this, call backwhat I realized I always had a
spirituality that never fitinside of a church, so I didn't
grow up in the church, I grew upas an atheist, but there was a
spirituality that I was reachingfor and a lot of it was around
fantasy and imagination andwhere are we going?
(20:31):
What happens when people like,make good things together, like.
Those were thoughts I washaving at six years old, and so
for me, a lot of my reclamationprocess has been finding God and
Star Trek discovery, or comicbooks, or finding it in
literature.
I love you know, right here,sitting right here, toni
(20:51):
Morrison's book Beloved.
That is a sacred text.
I find God there.
I truly do.
I'll read that clearing scene.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Just not the movie, right yeah, oh not the movie.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
No, I'm scared, I'm scared, I'm a punk.
Sorry about the clearance.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I would love to watch that.
Snuck watching it and hadnightmares.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, but the clearing scene when Baby Suggs
Holy, invites All of the blackmen and women and children In
there and says, laugh, cry,dance.
You know, I find God there,right?
And so I realized myimagination was always the
avenue, that I had to conceiveof something beyond myself, and
(21:36):
God sanctifies that rather thantells me not to do that or tries
to only locate it in the Bible.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
That's really good.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Go ahead.
I'm sorry, no no, I was aboutto ask you to jump in Because I
was going to say to me that'sliberation, because I am a
sci-fi nerd.
Okay, like anything andeverything, sci-fi fantasy, like
I love it, I eat it up and Ialways have and I've always had
a really big imagination.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
And when you're in white evangelicalism they leash
you like it's because they don'thave an imagination themselves
and it's corrupt and morallybankrupt.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
But go ahead, yeah no , I totally agree with you,
because I can sit and think offor hours on space, like you,
tell me something that wouldmake me weep.
I'm talking about feel thepresence of the Lord, the stars.
Bro, I'm gone Like I, I, Iwould be like, oh, god is real.
Do you know what I mean?
The cosmos.
But then it's more than thatand it's like what if there were
other beings, like what if this?
(22:42):
And then what if they builtthis?
And I don't see that as ungodly, unholy, unrighteous.
Do you know what I mean?
Cause then cause then.
What do you do with CS Lewis?
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Well, that's the that is so that's about as far as
they go.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yes, I know, know, but when you start actually
reading his stuff, his stuff,some of his stuff is a little
wild, and so what I don'tunderstand is why the yeah, yes,
I do yeah, you do well no, no,because I I know what it is.
I was like we as a people are sofreaking powerful that if they
(23:24):
were to allow us to use ourimaginations, we would rule them
.
And why would we need like?
Why would they want us to rulethem?
So now let's suppress.
Because here's the thing weknow this, we know that slavery
wasn't just a physical thing.
We know it was a mental thing.
But even within the mental, itwas the imagination.
We weren't even allowed todream of freedom.
(23:45):
We weren't even allowed todream of freedom.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
We weren't even allowed, did it anyway right,
like I remember reading thisbook.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
It was one of my favorite books as a kid, and I
don't quote, I can't rememberthe name right now, of course,
but it was about these slaves inthe field and they were working
in the field and all of asudden they begin to fly away
and it's I mean, it's a kid'sbook and it's such beautiful
illustrations and just I meanthe imagery of being able to fly
(24:14):
away.
And I understand, okay, well,they wanted to get away from
slavery and all sorts of stuff.
But I was like no, it was theimagination, it was the freedom
of their imaginations that we'renot allowed in evangelicalism
and it'sism, and it's very, it'svery unfortunate, but I think
that's why we exited and I thinkthat's where the artists you
(24:35):
know how they, oh, you know howcertain groups we were a part of
talked about, um, talked about,you know, uh, the artists, the
black artists that are going tocome forth and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I hate you, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
We can do a part.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
No let's just keep going.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I do want to say to that, like I think you know
Emily Towns talks about, likethe imagination of white
supremacy and whiteness, andright, Like it's not able to
bring forth generativity becauseall the fears and the supremacy
is wed up in that thing, Right.
And so part of the bondage ofwhite evangelicalism is you
(25:26):
can't even conceive of how freeyou can be.
You don't even know the lifethat you could have.
And I'll give this.
One example is I remember youknow a dear brother, Trey, a
couple of years ago posted onTwitter yeah, shout out to Trey.
He posted on Twitter this ideaof I can't wait till we're
(25:46):
really free because God neverdesigned us to work.
And when I tell you, the whitepastors, the leaders, people
were in them comments so mad, itwas the anger for me, right,
Like they had all.
No, if we don't work, what willwe do all?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
day.
What do you mean?
I will quit my job right now.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
They were saying like you're a heretic, how can you
be a pastor?
No, god wants people to work.
They could not even conceive inthe spirit of their mind life
beyond work.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I can't See, man, the amount of rage towards rest.
That is a very bad symptom ofwhiteness.
Like to be that enraged aboutrest I mean, just think, as a
pastor but like what issometimes called a shepherd huh,
say it.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
The scriptures say rest like I don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
You know good right now the bible is just.
It is a whole nother thingthese days.
But listen, the police didn'teven do what it said I mean.
So you know they're not readingthe Bible like that.
There's no way on.
Like the amount of imaginebeing that mad about somebody
saying we were created for rest.
Just imagine being in charge ofpeople's souls in one way or
(27:07):
another, people's spiritualreality in one way or another,
and you get that mad about theprospect of rest.
Everybody in your care is indanger.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
And we were, we were.
Can you think about I wanty'all to localize when you
actually stepped away from theinstitution of white
evangelicalism.
Didn't you feel tired?
Weren't you like literally Imean physically it took me years
to recover, Like I was so tiredfor years and I realized it's
(27:41):
exactly what you're saying to me.
People put that yoke on mebecause they had that framework
of God that God is an enemy.
It's not just rest y'all, godis an enemy of pleasure.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Indeed.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Like God is antithetical to pleasure, and
serving God is opposite.
You know, I'm thinking of Ageof Pleasure, Janelle Monae right
now.
But like pleasure is thisdemonized thing that we're not
meant to possess.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
We should just you got me thinking about Janet
Jackson, the principles ofpleasure.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
I'm sorry.
I was thinking of PleasurePrinciple and it was coming in
my mind right.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I only listen to Christian music and gospel music
and gospel music.
So, see, there you go.
See, you know what.
On that point, I remember beingin ministry and, uh, someone
saying to me, one of the leaderssaying you'll rest when you die
(28:44):
, and and I was like what thehell?
That's the only time we get torest and that was the reality
that they lived in, which is whya lot of them are.
Even their physical frames aretore up.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
It's giving chattel slavery babes.
It's giving chattel slave likeyou can rest when you die.
Is giving master slave chattelslave like you can rest when you
die.
Is giving master slave chattelslavery in the sweet by and by.
You can rest no.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Jesus I mean this particular person did suckle at
the teat of the master, so youknow.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
She's on the porch fixing the show, mister, listen,
okay, I'm thinking a lot aboutsomething that you said, rob,
this idea of obviously, peoplenot wanting to rest but the, the
weariness that you feel whenyou leave, I was thinking about
(29:46):
when you named it.
I I was reminded of the actualfeeling and you know, I felt
that feeling when I leftministry and evangelical spaces,
when I left my ex-husband andwhen I left toxic jobs.
I felt the same feeling of likethrowing off heavy garments and
being exhausted but alsodelighted, like like being able
(30:11):
to breathe.
And to me, I'm feeling like,I'm wondering about folks who
are like right on the edge ofcause.
One of the things I loved aboutwhen Is the Lie was like we were
grappling, like we were in thebeginning stages of this
grappling, and thoseconversations are so precious to
me because you can hear like usclinging to God and also being
(30:36):
honest about life being hard andshit not being fair.
And so when I think about itnow, a couple of years out from
then, at this point now, youknow, a couple of years out from
then, at this point, you knowall of us are a little more
settled, we're a little more atease.
So I'm thinking about people onthe precipice of like, where we
were right, who might belistening.
What would you say to thosepeople?
(30:57):
How would you encourage them interms of moving forward?
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Yeah, I would say one .
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
I didn't have the vision toknow how deep I was and how
locked up my mind was.
So it me, and that is like abible text for me, and it's like
been an anchor and coming allthe way out, like my heart is
(31:35):
not peripheral to me, at leastright like to me, and so part of
my, my unfolding, unbecomingand becoming again.
It's like no, that pleasureprinciple, that who am I really?
My heart isn't peripheral to meand I gave my heart to white
evangelicalism in ways that I'mashamed of, but it's okay, I'm
(32:02):
finding it.
You know I'm finding it.
You know, yeah, that's what Iwould say.
That'm finding it.
You know I'm finding it.
You know, yeah, that's what Iwould say.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
That's so good.
How about you, Fran?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I think I think there are a few things that kind of
roll in my head, cause I'm likesitting here really trying to
think what would I say tosomeone?
And it would be be patient withyourself to someone, and it
would be be patient withyourself acknowledge yourself,
acknowledge your feelings, yourthoughts, your, your, your, your
fears, your, your anger, yourhatred, your, you know.
(32:38):
Usually in christianity it'slike don't wallow in those
things and just you know, givethem all to the Lord, don't give
them to the Lord, sit in them.
I want to say sit there and beokay with not being okay and
being okay all at the same time,and then understand that there
(32:59):
is a real grief process Likethis isn't like a going back to
what Robert said.
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
This is grief.
Like you are going to havewaves and waves of grief.
You're going to feel shame,you're going to feel anger,
you're going to feel hatred,you're going to like we, you're,
(33:19):
you're going.
You're going to feel likesomething is dying.
Um, so good, but it is dying itis dying but but the whole idea
of the resurrection and andthere's something about the
resurrection it wasn't, you know, when Jesus died resurrection
and all that stuff, like thinkabout it, like that it really
(33:41):
will be a resurrection.
It would be like the Phoenixcoming out of the ashes kind of
aspect.
Resurrection.
It would be like the Phoenixcoming out of the ashes kind of
aspect.
But it's, it's a, it's amarathon.
You gotta be able to face thegrief, and a lot of my friends
that I've known have run from itinstead of running into it, and
when they've run from itthey've lost themselves further
(34:01):
and they don't know where theyare now.
And so I think I would just say, confronted, have one to two
friends I'm talking about one totwo Like that would look at you
and be like I know and it'd beokay and will hold space for you
(34:22):
and will be that safe space foryou.
I think those are the things,because I'm thinking about
what's gotten me through,literally, is the grief.
Going through the grief, thetherapy, the friendships, the
process, and it's been, it'sbeen what, seven years now and
I'm just starting to feel okay,like it's not a, it's a marathon
(34:47):
, it really is.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah, I'm thinking about when you're talking about
resurrection, and one thing thatI think stayed with me was the
way that passages used to pop inmy head, but this, that first
Corinthians three passage aboutit is the incorruptible things
that are raised, and thinkingabout how this, these waves of
grief like break over us andthey wash away false selves,
(35:15):
right like they wash away waysof being that were not authentic
.
And if, if they're notauthentic, I don't, I don't
think that they're holy, and soI'm wondering about like this
process of letting these wavesbreak over us is actually so
good for us, because youactually end up finding out like
(35:37):
who you actually are, and so itfeels very much like a
resurrection, absolutely.
It feels like being raised tonew life and raised in a
different way, you know, likeyou're just in a different.
You're a different person.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And that's okay.
And I think that's what we getafraid of is like, because I
remember being like, well, Idon't hear God's voice like I
used to.
And then it's not that Iquestioned whether well, some
things I questioned was Jesus,but you know, some things really
was okay.
But I'm in a different place inmy relationship with God, just
like if I was married I'd be ina different place with my spouse
(36:16):
.
You're not the same person youwere when you first met.
You're a different individualand you have to be OK with that
growth and that difference.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Yeah, I want to sneak this in here.
Like you know, like, as I waslistening to both of you, I
think what has helped me isbeing is meeting myself with
curiosity.
For so long I was trying to be,you know, essentially I was
trying to be a white man, likelet's just be clear Like it
(36:49):
wasn't.
I was trying to be many things,but that's not who I am.
And so now, part of thatresurrection and that washing
that you're talking about Tamiz,washing that you're talking
about Tamiz I've had to be sogracious to myself and I told
myself 15 years ago, you don'tknow who you are yet, and you?
(37:09):
know, even in the past seven,eight years.
I'm like you don't know yet youknow and so which feels
embarrassing because I'm 40 andI should, but I feel like I'm
just now.
I love the skin I'm in.
I love who I have become.
I actually even love the pastiterations of myself.
The funny thing is the Robertfrom 15 years ago, 20 years ago,
(37:33):
he would hate who I've become.
I have grace for that persontoo, right, like I know you
would hate me, you would thinkthat I'm heretical, you would
think that I'm not serious.
And, baby, I love that aboutyou.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Like I love you even there, right, and so making
peace with each younger Roberthas really helped me to say I
love the skin I'm in today.
I really do.
I'll be in here.
Beyonce just came out with anew song.
I was going to sneak it in.
I was in here.
When I tell you, I was in hereline dancing this morning.
(38:13):
The funny thing is I wasfeeling God's presence.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, when Beyonce was singing.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I don't know about all that first of all, actually
let me do this live on on theair.
Okay, let's wrap this up, baby,I'm doing this live and on the
air.
You two clown me over the queen.
I just want to say I'm takingit back.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Y'all.
No, tamiz, don't lie to thesefolks, don't do that Y'all told
me Beyonce was Illuminati.
We didn't say that.
We did say you were doing toomuch Hold on.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Alexa's mad Hold on.
Alexa's mad Hold on.
Talked about the Beyonce, soAlexa came up.
What was you saying?
Speaker 3 (39:04):
now, fran, tell the truth and shame the devil.
Shame, it wasn't just Beyonce,although we did.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Lauryn Hill.
I've always been on Lauryn Hill.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
I love.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Lauryn Hill unplugged .
Speaker 3 (39:18):
We talk a lot it's cause that album sucked.
But first of all, rob, sorry,sorry, let's wrap this up.
So where do we go from here,friends?
Speaker 2 (39:31):
oh wait, I do want to say one thing, and it's more of
a, it's not a challenge, butit's more of like a comfort
thing.
I want to say to people who arecoming out of evangelicalism
and trying to figure outeverything it's OK if you can't
read the Bible, it's OK if youtake a break, it's OK if because
(39:51):
I remember there was a timewhere I would open the passages
of the scriptures that I'vealways loved, you know, and I
would literally hear the voiceof different pastors and leaders
and I could not hear God'svoice or my voice and I would
just cry and I would haveanxiety attacks.
It's okay if you can't read theBible right now.
Let yourself off the hook.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yeah, and I'm going to sneak one more in there too
there is life after whiteevangelicalism.
There's a whole world out there, and I didn't know that.
you know, it was scary when Iwas leaving, and we're talking
about beliefs, bodyconsciousness, all these things
that we suffered exhaustion, but, but in order to leave, we left
(40:34):
community, we left people thatwe would have called you know,
our ride or die friends.
We love people that we mourn tothis day.
Right, there's a whole worldout there to experience and
explore, and people who willlove you, who you have not met
yet, and I wish somebody wouldhave told me like, baby is scary
(40:55):
right now.
There's a whole world out here.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
It's better to be alive than alone yes that's a
jump.
So let me say this, friends,I'll be corny.
So just thinking about how longwe've known each other and
thinking of how many differentseasons and like bank accounts,
right like that we had to walkjust seeing each other, just
(41:25):
seeing each other in all ofthese different spaces, I just
feel like saying, just offeringgratitude to God for the
faithfulness, because it'ssomething to sit across from
your friends and y'all lookmoisturized and happy and in
your skin, and it's like I'veseen you in other places, in
(41:45):
other seasons.
I've seen you be pained andhurt and angry, and so to see
how, how good we look, we lookgood.
I'm going to just say that welook really good and I'm proud
of us and I'm just really gladthat that, uh, like we had
Christina on here and Dr.
Dr Cleveland said not everybodymakes it to this point, right,
(42:09):
as you resurrect.
So to have people there everytime you resurrect, those are
good friends, you know.
So I'm just, I'm just gratefulthat I know you and that you
came on the show.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Thank you, Tamish.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
And I was right about Beyonce.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Never, girl, stop this recording before we beat
you.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Thank you for listening to pick your money in
your heart is donate tosubcluster, ink and clear the
path for black students today.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com