Cari Farver, Liz Golyar, and Dave Kroupa - Part 1

In the summer of 2012, Dave Kroupa of Omaha, Nebraska was getting back into the dating scene after the end of a long-term relationship. He was looking for something casual and fun, but instead he ended up being part of a deadly love triangle involving two women - Liz Golyar and Cari Farver. But who was the stalker and who was the victim? It would take investigators years to unravel the mystery in this story of love, jealousy and obsession.

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Sources:

• A Tangled Web, by Leslie Rule
• Dateline season 26, episode 1, Scorned
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l55FRpIk30E
• https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ne-supreme-court/1962008.html
• https://farverscholarship.org/
• https://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/police-develop-ruse-liz-golyar-admit-killing-cari-74549312
• https://www.perlego.com/book/3509844/the-cereal-killer-chronicles-of-battle-creek-pdf

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned
in over twenty years of marriage,some days you'll feel like killing your husband,
and some days you'll feel like killingyour wife. Welcome to love,
Mary Kill Hi, Tina, HeyRich, How are you? I'm great?

(00:27):
How are you? I'm great?Also, it's good we're on the
same page. I'm very excited tohear the story that you have to tell
me today. I know you've beenworking really hard. I am excited to
tell you because it's just a crazystory. But before we get to that,
I am also excited for another reason. You know why I do because
we have merch and we've been prettyto do it for a long time.

(00:49):
But we're just releasing just a fewpieces. We went with a local printer
because I really wanted to be ableto see and feel the fabrics and just
we have a couple of sweatshirts anda couple of T shirts. We have
like a unisex which our vendor reallydid not want to do the ladies cut,
but I was like, oh,I think we should do a ladies
cut, which is, you know, a smaller fit, and he just

(01:12):
was very cautious and said, well, make sure you tell everyone to order
at least one size up for theladies fit, if not two sizes up
if you want it to be alittle looser. Yeah. And you can
find the link to order this onour show notes or on our Instagram media.
Yeah, so it's exciting. Imean, who wouldn't want a love
Mary Kill sweatshirt for Christmas? Iknow I would be happy to get one,

(01:34):
So yeah. I sometimes I thinkI forget that people leave their houses
because I'm home so much and I'malways wearing a sweatshirt and sweatpants or joggers
or whatever. So yeah, youmight not want to wear it out of
the house, but if you do, that'd be great. But they're nice
quality, That's what I wanted tosay. They're really nice quality. I
think you'll be really happy if youorder, so check that out. The

(01:57):
store is open for a limited time. It closes on November twenty first at
twelve am, so Tuesday night,the twenty first is your last chance to
order. We will not be ableto extend it to get the shirts printed
in time for Christmas or just December. Cool, and you have one other
thing that we're working on. Also, I also had some stickers printed and

(02:19):
assuming that they turn out okay.If so the first hundred people that message
me and send me your address,I will be happy to mail you a
sticker, assuming that they turn outokay. But they're vinyl stickers and you
can put them on a lot ofthings. You can put them on your
car, my laptop, you couldput it on your water bottle, whatever.
And we are working on coffee mugsbecause a lot of people have asked

(02:40):
for those, but dang it,coffee mugs are a lot more complicated than
are complicated because our shirt guy doesn'tdoesn't make coffee mugs. He was like,
no, you know, which justbaffles me. But I'm like okay,
So anyway, we're working on that, but you have to order like
quite a few, and I don'twant to order seventy two coffee mugs because

(03:00):
I don't know if they're going toturn out. So it's we're working at
it, Yes we are. Okay, Sorry that was way too much business.
Yeah, well let's move on toa snack. So we have a
special snack today. We mentioned itlast week, but our listener, Kelly
from New Mexico, very kindly sentus some Kelly, we're just idiots.
Oh, they sat in our PObox for two months because we didn't check

(03:23):
our pof We thought that our POour post office would notify us if there
was something there, and they neverdid. They didn't. You would think
that the small town we live inthat they would not be too busy and
they'd be really excited to notify people. But no, yeah, it turns
out they don't do it. Butanyway, we're going to try these anyway.
And these are they're called Bisco cheetos, which is apparently a Southwestern holiday

(03:49):
tradition cookie of New Mexico. Itis the official state cookie of New Mexico,
and Kelly says that these cookies area holiday staple in the Southwest.
So we're going to try them outquick. Thank you so much, Kelly.
So sorry that we are idiots anddidn't check our PO box. If
anyone else wants to send us asnack, don't feel obligated. But our

(04:09):
PO box is PO box one oneone Dexter, Michigan for eight one three
zero. That's correct. Yeah,yeah cool. Let's take quick break and
we'll be right back. What didyou think of the Bisco cheeto. I
thought it was delicious. It wasreally good too, and you think that

(04:29):
maybe it'd be a little stale,but they, Kelly, they were.
They were really good. They're reallygood. I was afraid I wouldn't really
like them because the brochure it saysthey have a they're flavored with anise seed,
which I hate liquor, which isvery picky about spices. But it's
very uh some control that flavor.Yeah, but the texture is really delightful,
very good. Tasted like a likea spicy short bread. Yeah.

(04:53):
Yeah, well I guess it was. I tasted cinnamon mostly, yep.
Yeah, thank you so much,Kelly, Yeah, thank you. So
I did a little bit research thatI wanted to share because I was interested
the fact that it said this wasNew Mexico's state cookie. Love Mary kill.
We're always going to give you alittle more information than you want.
You probably want exactly. So Iwas curious, though, how many other
states have a state cookie? Howmany do you think? Well, I

(05:16):
would hope every state has a statecookie. Only three, Only three states
have an official state cookie. SoNew Mexico was the first with the Bisco
cheeto that became their official state cookie. In nineteen eighty nine, Massachusetts made
the chocolate chip cookie their official statecookie. Oh, I know, they
took the chocolate chip cookie. Imean everyone else is probably like mea up

(05:36):
bunkle, I know. And thenjust recently, in June of twenty twenty
three, Alabama's governor signed a billmaking the Yellowhammer their official state cookie.
You never heard of it? Well, they are giant, slightly soft oatmeal
cookies sandwiching a peanut buttery cream filling. Sounds all right, good? Yeah,
And I did check on Michigan,and there was a bill introduced in

(05:59):
Michigan in nineteen ninety four to namethe Michigan Treasure Cookie as the official state
cookie, which I had never heardof. You recently, Yeah, I
sent you the recipe a couple ofdays ago, but I had never heard
of it. Yeah, it's essentiallylike a chocolate chip cookie with cherries in
it. But the bill never passedtogether. Well, I am going to
get Rechen Whitmer on the phone,and I follow her on Instagram, so

(06:24):
and yeah, we're going to workon that. We will, Okay,
So today's case. I kind ofalluded to it earlier, but this is
probably the most insane story that I'veresearched so far. I've all the podcasts
I listened to about this. Everyonestarted with this story is the craziest story,
and I was like, yeah,whatever, it's a crazy story,
right. It's a story of jealousy, obsession, and cruelty that went on

(06:47):
way too long before some tenacious investigatorsfinally uncovered the truth. It actually reminds
me a little bit of the movieFatal Attraction, but it's crazier than that.
And it is kind of a longstory. It's going to be two
parter, and it's going to bea wild ride. So yes, buckle
up. Our story begins in thesummer of twenty twelve. Thirty four year

(07:09):
old Dave Krupa had recently ended along term relationship, like thirteen or fourteen
years long, with a woman namedAmy Flora, who was the mother of
his two children. Dave was agood guy, but not someone who wanted
to be tied down. While Amywanted to get married, Dave was never
on board with the idea, andeventually the couple decided to call it quits.

(07:30):
Dave moved out of their house inCouncil Bluffs, Iowa, to a
sparsely furnished bachelor pad apartment about twentyminutes away across the Missouri River in Omaha,
Nebraska, which was near where heworked managing an auto repair shop.
They agreed to work together for thesake of the kids, though, who
were eleven and nine at this time, Dave and Amy maintained a friendly relationship

(07:54):
and Dave saw the kids regularly.After Dave moved into his new apartment,
he decided it was time to getout there and start dating again. Even
though he hadn't been married, hehad been as good as married for the
last dozen or so years, sogetting back into the dating world was a
little bit scary. He quickly foundthat things had changed since he was last

(08:15):
on the market, because there wasa whole new world of dating apps out
there where one could meet and dateas many women as he wanted. This
suited Dave because while he wanted tohave fun and socialize, he absolutely did
not want commitment. He was independentand determined to stay that way. He
made it clear on his dating profilethat he was looking for something casual,

(08:37):
and he was up front with thatrequirement whenever he met anyone in person.
The first woman that Dave met onlinewas Shanna Gallier, better known as Liz.
She was about his age, hadtwo kids around the same age as
his, and they seemed to hither off. They saw each other four
or five times in the summer oftwenty twelve before Dave finally worked up the

(08:58):
new to kiss her. She askedwhat had taken him so long, and
he replied, because I don't knowwhat the fuck I'm doing. Their relationship
became intimate and they seemed to havechemistry together. Dave and Liz had fun
and the sex was good, buthe made it clear to her that he
was going to see other women,and he encouraged her to see other guys.
She said that just wasn't her style. Dave said, fine, but

(09:22):
don't expect me to change. DespiteDave setting clear boundaries up front, Liz
could be very clingy and she wasalways pushing him for more of a commitment.
She got jealous of amy when Davewould go over to her house to
spend time with his kids. Lizwould sometimes show up at Dave's apartment without
warning, and she would send himlong emails about their relationship and looking for

(09:45):
him to make a commitment. Ohboy, she would ask to just make
a one month commitment. Dave wouldsay no, or at times he would
half heartedly agree to some type ofshort term exclusivity just to kind of move
on from the discus. He caredabout Liz and he didn't want to hurt
her, so he kept the relationshipgoing, but he kept her at arm's

(10:05):
length while she kept pushing for more. Did Liz think that Dave was her
twin flame? I don't know.We should talk about twin Flames sometime.
We're watching to show on Amazon calledIt's not called twin Flames. It's based
on the podcast twin Flames. Wecan talk about that at the end.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy story.Actually, So Dave casually dated some other

(10:28):
women that he met online, butin the fall of twenty twelve, he
met Carrie Farvar in a more traditionalway. She came into his shop to
have some repair work done on herFord Explorer. He was instantly attracted to
her, and he sensed that shewas attracted to him as well. He
wanted to ask her out right there, but he thought, well, what
if I've misread the situation. Icould get into a lot of trouble at

(10:50):
work if I asked her out andshe's not interested, so he kept it
professional and she left the shop,but he didn't stop thinking about her,
and low and hold. Two weekslater, whose profile does he come across?
And his dating app Carrie Farver's.He sent her a message saying,
Hey, I know you. Sheresponded, and a little while later she

(11:11):
stopped back in his shop to chatand they exchanged phone numbers. It turned
out Dave hadn't misread the signals hewas getting from Carrie. In fact,
after she left the shop the firsttime, she actually created an account on
the plenty of Fish dating site,hoping that Dave was on the site and
that they would connect. Dave andCarrie's first date was on a Monday evening,

(11:33):
October twenty ninth of twenty twelve.They met at Applebee's in the mall
and they hit it off right away. Dave could see that Carrie was smart,
funny, and easygoing. She wasa software developer for a company called
West Corporation, which happened to belocated walking distance from Dave's apartment. Carrie
lived about thirty miles east of Omahain the small town of Macedonia, Iowa,

(11:58):
where she had grown up. Shewas thirty seven, twice married and
twice divorced, and she had fullcustody of her fourteen year old son Maxwell.
Her mom, Nancy and her stepdadMark also lived in Macedonia, and
they helped Carrie by having Maxwell staywith them whenever she needed. While they
were at Applebee's on their first date, Dave's phone started blowing up with texts

(12:22):
and calls. He saw that itwas Liz, and he did his best
to ignore it so as not tobe rude to carry. But after about
twenty texts and calls within a tenminute period, he thought that something might
be seriously wrong, so he excusedhimself and he called Liz back. She
said that she had less some thingsat his apartment and she really needed them
back. He told her that hewas on a date and that he was

(12:43):
sure it could wait. He hungup and went back to Carrie. They
finished eating, hung out a bitlonger, and then Dave asked Carrie if
she wanted to come back to hisplace, and she agreed. Once they
got back to Dave's apartment, hisphone started blowing up again, and soon
after that apartment intercom buzzer went off. It was Liz saying I need my

(13:03):
stuff now. Dave said, youdon't need to come in now. I'll
bring your stuff to you later.But Liz started crying and she wouldn't leave.
Do you know where Liz lived inrelation to Dave. I don't know
exactly, but she was in Omahaalso, so I think it was probably
relatively close. So she may havebeen like parked and saw him enter with
another woman. It's very possible.Yeah, So Dave explained the situation to

(13:28):
Carrie, and he apologized profusely.Carrie seemed to be a good sport about
it. She laughed it off.She said, in no worries, we've
all been there. Just give mea call when you've got things straightened out.
So Dave walked Carrie out, passedLiz, who was at the entrance
of the apartment. Awkward. Yeah, the two women didn't say anything to
each other. Liz came in toget her stuff, but she didn't want
to leave. She wanted to argue, but Dave just wanted to get rid

(13:52):
of her, which he finally didright away. After she left, he
called Carrie, who was not quitehome yet. She said, Hey,
why don't you come over to myplace? It was nine pm on a
Monday night and a forty minute drive, but Dave did not hesitate. Carrie
had a charming little two bedroom housebuilt in eighteen seventy that had belonged to
her grandparents. Maxwell her son wasstaying at Carrie's parents' house for the night,

(14:16):
so she and Dave had the placeto themselves. They had some coffee,
and soon they started kissing. Beforethings went any further, Carrie told
Dave that she wasn't looking for acommitment, that she just wanted something casual
and to have some fun. Davelater said, I felt like I hit
the jackpot. She was smart,fun, sexy, had her act kicked
together, and she wanted the exactsame thing out of a relationship that he

(14:39):
did. He ended up staying thenight and they saw each other regularly over
the next couple of weeks, inbetween work and kids. Between his chemistry
with Carrie and Liz's behavior, Davewas pretty much done with Liz, and
he told her that they should takea break, but Liz wasn't ready to
let go. A few days afterDave his first date with Carrie, Liz

(15:01):
send him a long, rambling email, I'm going to have you read just
a small part of it if youdon't mind, just so you can get
an idea of Liz's mindset. Iknow you don't know what will happen down
the road, and you really don'twant to think about it. Are you
asking for the long break so youcan forget everything? I'm going to give
it to you, so don't worry. I was just wondering. Sorry,

(15:22):
I guess I need closure. DoI forget everything about us? I'm going
to date others, but if noone catches my eye, do I get
to hope time makes the heart growfonder? Or do you want to go
and never come back. I'm notsaying we will ever get back together.
I'm just asking do I go andnever look back? I guess I hope,
even if you're dating others, thatyou look back and you'll smile when

(15:46):
you think of me, that somedayyou'll let me back in, no matter
what it be a friend or whatever. Good job. No man wants to
receive this, By the way,No, no, I shouldn't say man,
no one that you're dating, Like, if you break it off man
or woman, like you don't wantthis, you wouldn't be like, oh
yeah, let's give it another try. Yeap, No, that would solidify

(16:07):
your Yeah, I definitely want tobe done here for sure. So and
I think the email went on alot longer than that as well. It
was just a portion of it.She ended the email by saying she would
understand if he wanted to stop talkingto her, But then she emailed again
a few minutes later, saying thatshe hadn't hugged him the last time she'd
seen him because it would have feltlike a goodbye. Dave didn't reply to

(16:29):
either email. It didn't seem likea response was warranted. But that was
apparently not okay with Liz, becauseshe emailed him again the next day,
saying, well, thank you forno response to email. I get the
answer, that's it. Later afew days after this, Liz called him
saying she just remembered that she hadleft some pans at his place, so
he offered to bring them to her. When he got there, she got

(16:52):
very flirty and they ended up havingsex. Oh good God, Dave.
I know Dave is Yeah, he'snot the best at this whole thing.
He and Carrie. Dave and Carriehad both agreed that they weren't exclusive,
so he wasn't cheating on Carrie,and in his mind it was just one
last fling with Liz. But ofcourse she's an idiot, Yeah, she

(17:18):
emailed him. Lizzy emailed him afew days later asking if he would be
comfortable grabbing a drink or dinner withher sometime, just as friends, acting
very casual about it. So Carrieback to her She had a big project
going on at her work that wasgoing to require her to work long hours
for a week. Since Dave's apartmentwas so close to her work, he
offered to have her stay for afew nights, and she took him up

(17:41):
on it. This would save foralmost two hours of commuting time each day.
Her son Maxwell had a great relationshipwith her mom and stepdad, so
he was fine staying with them fora few days. On Tuesday, the
thirteenth of November, Dave had tobe at work by six point thirty in
the morning. When he left itsix twenty five, Carrie was in her

(18:02):
pajamas, sitting on his couch withher laptop out and a bunch of works
spread out around her on the couch. Dave gave her a kiss and said
he would see her later In theevening. She seemed happy and content.
He was looking forward to seeing herlater when he got back. They had
been seeing each other for two weeksand she seemed just about perfect to him.
He had no way of knowing atthat time how quickly and dramatically things

(18:26):
would change. Oh, here's whatwe know about Carrie Farver's actions. On
the morning of November thirteenth, atsix fifteen am, she called into her
work and she left a message withan update about the code that she was
working on. At six twenty five, as I mentioned, Dave left for
his job, leaving Carrie and herpajamas working on the couch. At six

(18:48):
thirty nine am, Carrie logged intoFacebook from her laptop. She had received
a friend request from someone named SamCarter, who claimed to be from her
hometown of Macedonia. She didn't knowhim, which was strange because Macedonia's population
was only around two hundred and fortypeople, plus he had spelled Macedonia wrong,
but she messaged him that morning askingdo I know you? And then

(19:11):
she logged off of Facebook at sixforty two am. At nine fifty four
am, Carrie's phone logged into Facebookand she unfriended Dave krupa h. Twenty
minutes later, a text came fromCarrie's phone to Dave asking if they should
move in together. Dave thought that'sweird because they had agreed to keep things

(19:33):
casual. He was busy at workas well, and so he just texted
back a one word response. Noseconds later, a text came back from
Carrie quote fine, fuck you.I'm seeing somebody else. Don't contact me
again. I hate you, goaway unquote oh boy. Dave was shocked,

(19:55):
but he was also busy at work, and so he put it aside
for the moment, and he didn'trespond. By mid morning, Carrie's supervisor
at work was surprised when she hadn'tshown up yet. She had gotten Carrie's
message that she had left at sixfifteen am, so it was clear that
Carrie was working on stuff that morning. Her supervisor called and left a message,
and tried again a few times laterin the day, but there was

(20:17):
no response. When Dave finished workfor the day and returned to his apartment,
he wasn't sure what to expect.Would Carrie be there, would they
fight? It was just so strangethe message that she had sent him earlier,
when things had been going so wellbetween them. He went into his
apartment and there was no trace ofCarrie. She and all her stuff were

(20:37):
gone, like she had never beenthere. He was baffled, but at
the same time, he thought tohimself, well, I guess I dodged
a bullet. It's hard to knowwhat a person is really like after just
a couple of weeks, and apparentlyhe had completely misread Carrie as someone who
was easy going, reasonable and dramafree, and this just reaffirmed his commitment

(20:59):
to not committing. He didn't needthe drama in his life. Meanwhile,
Carrie's mom, Nancy, started gettingworried when she hadn't heard from Carrie.
They normally talked or texted every day. Nancy tried calling Carrie several times to
see when she was going to pickup Max, but she never got a
response. When Carrie didn't show upfor her half brother's wedding that weekend,

(21:22):
Nancy became really concerned. She knewthat Carrie wouldn't miss the wedding. Carrie's
father, Nancy's ex husband, wasdying of stomach cancer, and her half
brother had pushed the wedding up sothat he could be there. But when
Carrie didn't show up to the rehearsaldinner or the wedding, Nancy reported her
missing. How long had she beenmissing? So Tuesday was the day that

(21:45):
she went missing, and then Ithink the rehearsal dinner was Friday, so
it was a few days. Okay. The officer who took the missing person's
report didn't seem too concerned. Afterall, Carrie was a grown woman.
She could do what she wanted.It wasn't long after Carrie's disappearance that the
harassment started. Dave started receiving angrytexts from Carrie's phone. Usually Liz was

(22:08):
the target of the texts, referringto her as a quote fat, ugly,
whore, and other nasty names.Liz also started getting texts and emails
from Carrie, and even worse,her garage was broken into and someone painted
the words whorror from Dave on hergarage wall. Liz also discovered that a
check book had been stolen, andshe reported both the theft and the vandalism

(22:32):
to the Omaha police. Dave hadn'treally planned on seeing Liz again, but
when she told him about the harassmentand the vandalism. He felt bad,
and he didn't blame her for beingupset. He felt guilty, after all,
he had brought this crazy carry womaninto their lives. Shortly after the
incident in Liz's garage, Nancy gota text from her daughter's phone with a

(22:55):
picture of a check made out toCarrie and signed with the name Shanna Gallier,
Liz It's legal name. The messagefrom Carrie said that she had sold
her bedroom set to Shanna and askedher mom to let Shanna into her house
to pick it up. Nancy didn'tbelieve that it was really Carrie, and
so she replied saying I need tohear your voice so I know it's really

(23:18):
you. The reply from Carrie's phonecalled Nancy a controlling, bad mother,
and there was no call to confirmor to hear Carrie's voice. Nancy followed
up with the police after this exchange, more certain now that something had happened
to Carrie or that someone had kidnappedher. The police again didn't seem too
worried. They took a copy ofthe text and the photo of the check,

(23:41):
and they added it to the file. While Nancy believed that Carrie hadn't
chosen to disappear. There was somedoubt in the back of her mind.
Carrie had been diagnosed with bipolar disorderyears earlier. Nancy had always doubted the
diagnosis, believing that Carrie suffered morefrom general anxiety as opposed to the extreme

(24:02):
mood swings that come with bipolar disorder. But maybe Carrie was having some type
of manic episode. She had lefther meds behind, after all. When
Nancy mentioned this to the police,they seemed to take this as a confirmation
that Carrie must have left on herown volition. I'm sorry, it seems
like the police have missed a fewsteps here. It seems like it.

(24:23):
But you know, at the sametime, the whole check incident is very
strange. Yeah, it is alittle strange. Although the police didn't seem
super concerned, they actually did dosome investigations. I'll talk about that now.
On Monday the nineteenth, so sixdays after Carrie had vanished and three
days after Nancy reported her missing,an officer interviewed Carrie's supervisor at West Corporation.

(24:47):
She told the officer that Carrie hadn'tshown up for work on Tuesday,
and then later in the week shehad gotten a text from Carrie saying that
she was resigning and moving to Kansasto take a new job. The police
also contacted contacted Verizon to get Carrie'sphone records and her ping locations. The
pings showed that her phone was stillin Omaha. They drove around the area

(25:08):
of the pings, which only providea rough location, to see if they
could spot her Ford Explorer, butthey came up empty. They also had
the photo of the check that Carrie'smom had shared. The checks were starter
checks. There was no name oraddress on them, but they could read
the signature clearly Shanna Gallier. Theydidn't know who this was, so keep
in mind the detectives investigating Carrie asa missing person were on the Iowa side

(25:33):
of the border, and the detectiveswho had taken Liz's report of vandalism and
theft were from Nebraska. But theytalked to Liz, who told them that
she and Carrie had both dated thisguy, Dave Krupa, and that Carrie
had been harassing her and had stolenher check book. She also gave them
Dave's contact info. They stopped into see Dave at his work and he

(25:53):
confirmed that Both he and Liz weregetting harassing texts and emails from this crazy
Carrie Farver woman. He didn't knowthat she had been reported as missing,
and he promised to let the policeknow if he saw her. Soon after
the officer left Dave's place of work, he meaning the officer, got a
text from Carrie himself. It said, quote, I don't care about this

(26:18):
missing person report, but I wouldreally appreciate it if you would leave Dave
Krupa out of it. I willbe leaving the state. My mother overreacted.
I have been to my house afew times unquote. The officer responded,
saying they needed to speak with herto verify that she was okay,
otherwise she would remain a missing personin the database. The response from Carrie

(26:38):
said, quote, Dave texted meand said you had the sheriff at his
work. Please stop talking to people. I have nothing to say to anyone.
I want one person to go awayfor destroying everything for me. Apparently
she met Liz. By the endof November, Dave was getting over sixty
texts and emails a day from Carrie'sphone. Boy. One night, he

(27:00):
got a text saying, I seeyou in the chair with your feet propped
up. You're wearing your blue Tshirt. Both of those things were true,
which freaked Dave out. He ranoutside, but he didn't see Kerrie.
He would try to block her numberor her email, but she would
just start texting from different numbers anddifferent email addresses. He got a new

(27:21):
phone number, but somehow she foundout his new number, and the harassment
continued. Let's take a quick break. I just had an incredible sense of
deja vu, and I realized thatI've heard this case before. You have,

(27:42):
Okay, I wonder it's I thinkit's a fairly well known case.
So I must have watched a datelineon Okay, here's a dateline up.
Oh yeah, Keith Morrison. It'sa good talk about the texting in the
blue shirt. I was like,oh wait a minute, I know this.
Oh man, I thought I hada new one. Remember it.
I don't remember it very well Alittle bit. Sorry, that's okay,

(28:03):
all right, So the harassment isgoing on here. Amy, Dave's ex
and the mother of his children,also started getting dozens of threatening messages a
day from Carrie warning her to leaveDave alone. Dave started getting worried for
his kid's safety and wouldn't let themout of his sight when they were together.
On November twenty first, a postappeared on Carrie's Facebook page saying that

(28:25):
she was moving to Kansas for agreat job and that she would miss her
family and friends. A few dayslater, another post appeared saying, Hey,
got a great guy, David Krupamoving down to Kansas. Now.
If I can get my son tomove with me, I'd be so happy.
The weird thing was that her sonMax, told his grandparents that his
mom had actually talked about possibly movingto Kansas at some point. So even

(28:48):
though Nancy believed that it wasn't herdaughter making these posts, she still had
like a sliver of doubt. Bythe end of November, though, Nancy
and her husband Mark took action tobecome Max's legal guardian, knowing that it
could be reversed if Carrie showed upand was in her right mind. They
also reported Carrie's car, which wasin their name, as being stolen,

(29:11):
hoping that it would be another avenueto help hopefully locate Carrie. On December
seventh, Carrie's dad, Dennis,the one who had been battling stomach cancer,
passed away in hospice. Yeah,it's really sad because she wasn't there,
and you know she would have beenthere for him. Soon after that,

(29:32):
Nancy, who had remained good friendswith Carrie's dad even after they divorced,
had a vivid dream where Dennis toldher not to worry that Carrie was
with him. She woke up intears, now believing that Carrie was probably
dead, but it would take along long time before she knew for sure
whether that was the case. Eventhough Dave had pretty much dumped Liz before

(29:53):
all this craziness started, the harassmentthat they were both experiencing actually brought them
back to other. Woah, Iknow they had this kind of shared experience.
They could vent to each other aboutcrazy Carrie as they started referring to
her, and it almost seems likeLiz got exactly what she wanted. At
this point, you might be wantingto know more about Shanna aka Liz Gallier

(30:18):
Shanna Kay, which was her nameat birth, grew up in Kalamazoo,
Michigan, in nineteen and no Kalamazoo, Yeah it's a great place. In
nineteen seventy eight, when she wasalmost three years old, the state of
Michigan removed Shanna and her little brother, fifteen month old George, from their
home. This was because their dad, Al was a violent, abusive alcoholic

(30:40):
who regularly beat up their mom d. After the kids were taken away,
d kicked Al out of the houseand the social workers approved having the children
return back home. Before that happened, though, tragedy struck. D was
walking home from the laundromat where shehad been washing the linens in preparation for
her children's return home. The laundromatwas only four blocks away from home,

(31:03):
but an eighteen year old driver hadan epileptic seizure and veered off the road,
striking and killing Dee, who wasless than two weeks away from her
twenty ninth birthday. After that,Shanna and George went into foster care,
bouncing around to a few households beforeending up adopted by Ronald and Teresa Gallier
of Battle Creek. At that point, Shanna's name was changed from Shanna Kay

(31:27):
to Shanna Elizabeth Gallier. In nineteeneighty one, when Shanna was five,
her foster grandmother was murdered at ageforty six, shot and killed by her
ex boyfriend In a Battle Creek bar. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah,
so her childhood was certainly marred bytrauma. Shanna got married at twenty

(31:48):
then divorced at twenty two. Shethen started dating a guy named Raymond Niche,
who she worked with at a plasticsfactory, and she found out she
was pregnant in early nineteen ninety eight. Niche bought a trailer for the two
of them to live in, butwhen she was eight months pregnant, Shanna
moved in with another guy by thename of Glenn her She told Raymond that

(32:09):
Glenn was just her roommate, butit soon became clear that there was more
to their relationship. Cody Nathaniel Gallierwas born in August of nineteen ninety eight.
He was a difficult, calicky babywho cried a lot. In January
of nineteen ninety nine, when Codywas five months old, Shanna called Glenn
at work, saying, I droppedthe baby. You need to get home.

(32:31):
By the time Glenn got home,Cody was sleeping and he seemed fine.
But the next day, while Shannawas at work and Glenn and his
mom were with the baby, Codyseemed unusually quiet and then Glenn's mother saw
that the baby wasn't breathing. Ohno, Glenn called nine one one while
his mother performed CPR, but sadly, baby Cody died. Oh my god.

(32:53):
The cause of death was determined tobe shaken baby syndrome. The police
grilled Glen, who was a bitslow mentally, and he admitted that he
had bounced Cody on his knee andliked to toss him in the air while
they were playing, so maybe hewas responsible for Cody's death. The doctor
who examined Cody said that his deathhad been the result of at least twenty

(33:15):
seconds of vigorous shaking, so it'sunlikely that bouncing Cody on his knee or
playfully tossing him up in the airwould have actually caused his death. And
Glenn either didn't mention Shanna's call theday before about dropping the baby or the
police didn't care. They decided thatthey had their man. Glenn was arrested
and charged with second degree murder.Glenn's mom ran into Shanna at Walmart a

(33:38):
couple of days after Cody died.A couple had offered to buy Shanna a
new wardrobe to take her mind offof losing her baby, and apparently it
worked because Shanna seemed cheerful and happy, not like a grieving mother as you
might expect. Glenn's mom was shocked. At Glenn's trial, Shanna testified and

(34:00):
ed to the jury several letters thatshe claimed he had sent her from jail.
One of the letters asked Shanna tocover for him and say that she
had dropped Cody. Glenn's mom wassure that Shanna had written the letters.
Her son had a learning disability andthey were much more articulate than he would
have been. But nonetheless, Glennwas convicted and sentenced to eight and a

(34:21):
half to twenty five years in prison. Oh my goodness. Soon after Glenn's
conviction, Shanna left Michigan and sheheaded to Omaha. She actually had a
felony warrant for her arrest in Michiganfor stealing a car, and so she
apparently decided it would be best ifshe skipped town. I don't have a
lot of information about how Liz spenther first ten years in Omaha. I

(34:43):
do know that soon after moving there, she got pregnant and she had a
little girl. I don't know whothe father is, but When her daughter
was two years old, Liz meta different guy. She got pregnant again
and gave birth to a boy.Liz and this guy split up, though,
because he couldn't take Liz's constant jealousy. Soon after they split, he
started dating another woman. In whatwas maybe a preview of things to come,

(35:07):
Liz started harassing her ex and hisnew girlfriend, banging on their apartment
door late at night, calling theguy when the couple was together, keeing
the girlfriend's car, causing thirty sevenhundred dollars worth of damage. No one
had seen Liz do it, though, and so she wasn't charged. Soon
after that incident, Liz left atearful voicemail for her ex boyfriend apologizing,

(35:29):
and she followed up by sending sixcookies. The funny thing is, though,
that the cookies arrived in two separatepackages, one containing four cookies labeled
with the guy's name and their son'sname, and the other package containing two
cookies labeled with the girlfriend's name.The girlfriend was like, no thanks,
and she threw hers in the garbage, which I think was probably a smart

(35:51):
move. Liz then enrolled in pharmacyschool. Coincidentally, her ex's new girlfriend
was a pharmacist. Liz got hairextensions. Coincidentally, they made her hair
look like the ex's new girlfriend.Liz bought a black Mitsubishi. Coincidentally,
her ex's new girlfriend also drove ablack Mitsubishi. Eventually, though, Liz

(36:12):
lost interest and she moved on toruin other people's lives. In September of
twenty ten, almost two years beforeshe met Dave Krupa, Liz met a
guy named Todd Butterbaugh through an onlinedating site. Todd seems like a really
nice guy. He had just lostfifty pounds before meeting Liz, but he
still weighed about two point fifty andhe was self conscious about his weight.

(36:36):
He was thirty seven when they met, and he hadn't dated a lot before
he met Liz. Liz told Toddthat the men in her past relationships had
not treated her well, and soTodd vowed to not be like those other
guys. But it turned out thatLiz really treated Todd like crap. After
a few months of dating, shedumped him for another guy, but when
that didn't work out, she cameback to Todd. One time, Todd

(36:59):
was out near his apartment complex pooland he was surprised to see Liz's sister,
Marcy there. So this is Liz'ssister from the foster family that ended
up adopting her. Apparently she musthave lived in the Omaha area as well.
Marcy said, Oh, Liz justwent out to pick up some food.
When Liz showed up, she hada guy with her and she completely
ignored Todd. Todd was like,wait a minute, you brought your sister

(37:22):
and some other guy to my apartmentcomplex to use the pool without even telling
me. Whenever Todd would get upsetat situations like this, Liz would turn
things around on him and be like, well, why are you getting so
jealous. The guy's just a friend. Don't you trust me? And Todd
would always end up backing down andwondering whether maybe he overreacted. She would

(37:43):
never show him any affection in public, but he figured that was just who
she was. He would help payher bills, and often he would watch
her kids when she said she hadto work. She told Todd that she
had her own cleaning business and sometimesshe had to work all night. She
lived in government subsidized housing as asingle mom, and she never seemed to
have any money. In June oftwenty twelve, Todd bought his grandmother's house,

(38:06):
who had moved into a nursing home. This was about the time that
Liz met Dave Croupa. Todd gotsuspicious when he saw that Liz was spending
hours texting with some guy, butshe convinced him it was just her mechanic
and it was completely innocent, whichmakes sense. I mean, who among
us does not text their mechanic forhours at a time in the evening right.
Todd continued seeing Liz, believing thatthey were in an exclusive relationship while

(38:30):
she was also dating Dave Krupa.She didn't tell Dave about Todd either,
even though he would have been happyto know that she was dating someone else.
She didn't tell Todd about any ofthe craziness going on in November or
December of twenty twelve, with hergarage getting vandalized and the harassing texts and
emails from this crazy carry woman.In January of twenty thirteen, Todd got

(38:53):
a text from an unfamiliar number.The texter said her name was Carrie and
that she was a friend of Liz's. He mentioned this to Liz, who
didn't say anything about Carrie being thiscrazy stalker or anything. In fact,
she confirmed that Carrie was a friendof hers. Carrie started texting Todd regularly,
usually small talk, but occasionally shewould say things to provoke a reaction,

(39:15):
like Liz barely mentions you. Ididn't even know you two were still
dating. Another is I know I'msupposed to not think that this Carrie,
but obviously Carrie, Liz is Carrie. You are onto something there. Another
time he is a piece of work, she is yep. Another time she
texted, I wish I could meeta guy like you. Sweet, handsome,

(39:37):
smart, and we have a lotin common. Not trying to hit
on you. She said that Lizhad shown her a picture of Todd,
and she said, you are veryhandsome. I would like your arms around
me, just saying I would beproud to have you as a guy I
could show. Todd didn't know whatto make of all this, and he
was very careful to try to steerthe conversation away from anything too flirty or

(39:58):
personal. At one point, Toddnoticed that Carrie happened to phrase something the
way that Liz often did. Hemessaged her, lol, sounds like Liz,
she always says that little did heknow how spot on he actually was,
so he wasn't suspicious. I think, no, no, he wasn't.
I know, like in this story, it seems like like if you're

(40:22):
Dave or if you're Todd, likeyou should have been able to figure this
out. But you know, Ijust I just don't think they it didn't
occur to him, you know.I think they just assumed that it was
this create, this carry person,so they didn't have their own true crime
podcast or not suspicious of everyone andeverything in their life. Apparently not.

(40:42):
But it does seem like like justgiven the way that Liz was, like,
Dave knew that she would send himthese long emails and she was very
clingy and very possessive and stuff like, it does seem like, yeah,
Dave, maybe you should have atleast had the question in her mind that
maybe Liz is behind all this.Yeah, well, and she's chasing after

(41:04):
Dave. But it sounds like Todd'slike a good guy. Yeah, yeah,
poor Carry? Where's poor Carry?Yeah? Late later in January,
Todd's house was burglarized, although therewas no sign of forced entry, his
TV, his PlayStation, his laptop, computer, monitor, and some clothing
were all missing. He reported itto the police, including the serial numbers

(41:28):
of all the electronics that were stolen, so that they could circulate them to
pawn shops in case anything showed up. Are we supposed to know? I
was impressed that Todd he had maintaineda very meticulous list of all his BALI
that spreadsheets, I absolutely do notwow. In January of twenty thirteen,

(41:51):
Nancy got a message supposedly from Carriethat said, Mom, why are you
not talking anymore? It came froma new Facebook account that had been created
with Carrie's name. Nancy replied,is this really you? The reply came,
yes, Mom, the other accountwas hacked. I'm sorry I missed
the funeral. Nancy replied. Theonly way I'll know it's you is if

(42:12):
you call me and I hear yourvoice. The response came, everything is
about phone calls. I was justheading to bed. Who else would know
about dad? Fine, I willcall you sometime. Who else would know
I have a dad? I know. I just wanted you to know I'm
okay, I am happy. Imay not be the greatest person in the
world right now, but I amtalking. Fine, I will call you
but I'm done after that. Youhave Max, and I am grateful,

(42:35):
but after the cop stuff from before, I am done. I am not
ten years old. Mom. Ican leave him and move on with someone
new. End quote Nancy, Iforgot that Max has been with missus Farvard.
Yeah for six weeks. Yeah,that's horrible. Poor Max, I
know. And you know poor missusCarrey's mom. Yeah, and mud be

(42:58):
so worried. And her husband justdied. Yeah, no, her ex
husband, but yes, agreed.Yeah, and Carrie, you know,
she Max was the most important thingin the world to her, and so
for her to like just abandon herson like that, it's just what happened.
Crazy. Nancy still felt sure thatit wasn't really Carrie, but she
was holding on to whatever hope shecould, as you can imagine, like

(43:19):
as a parent, you know,even if you believe that this person you're
talking to is not really your daughter, you want to believe it so bad,
oh for sure. Soon after that, a photo of a hand with
a sparkling engagement ring was posted onCarrie's new Facebook profile with the caption Dave
and I got engaged. Nancy knewthat the hand did not belong to her

(43:40):
daughter, Carrie had long and slenderfingers, while the fingers shown in the
photo were short and stubby. OnJanuary sixth, Dave got an email from
Carrie's account that had a photo attached. The photo was dark and hard to
see, but it showed a womanin the trunk of a car, hands
behind her back and duct tape overher mouth. It was impossible to tell

(44:01):
who the woman was in the photobecause it was very dark. It could
be Liz, but it might notbe her. The email said, you
will do exactly as I say,and then I will let her go.
You will dump Liz and you willstart seeing me again. Dave was instructed
to call Liz's phone and leave avoicemail breaking up with her, and then

(44:21):
Carrie would set her free. Ifhe didn't do it, Carrie said that
she would leave Liz in the trunkin a remote location where she would die.
This was a Facebook message, No, this was an email with a
photo attached. Time, I'm sorry, Okay. Did he contact the police
right away? He actually didn't,so he wasn't buying it. I think
by this time he was like,you know, he had been getting so

(44:43):
many emails and texts every day thathe was just like, this is not
a real thing. He texted Lizto check in on her. It was
late in the evening. Liz didn'trespond, but she messaged him the next
morning, asking why he had beentrying to reach her so late. Dave
replied, quote Psycho was playing games. Was just checking on you. Unquote.

(45:05):
Liz replied, so sweet. What'sup today, handsome? So I
was a little surprised he didn't callthe police, because if it had been
real, he probably shouldn't have waitedtill the next morning before actually doing anything.
Yeah, if you look at apicture of me and a trunk,
please call the police. Yes,I went away. On January eighth,
Dave noticed a car in his apartmentparking lot that was covered in snow and

(45:29):
obviously hadn't been driven in days.He scraped some of the snow off and
realized that it was Carrie's Ford Explorer. I was going to ask about her
car. Well now you know,he was sure that it hadn't been there
the whole time. It made himwonder had carried moved into his apartment complex.
He called the police, who cameand impounded the car. A crime

(45:50):
scene technician processed the vehicle and foundit to be extremely clean. The seats
had been recently vacuumed, and therewas really nothing of note in the car.
There were no fingerprints except for asingle print on a mint container in
the center console, which was scannedand searched in the database, but there
was no match. The car wasthen returned to Carrie's mom. She was

(46:13):
surprised how clean it was because Carrietypically left her car kind of messy,
but she assumed that the crime scenetechnicians must have cleaned it before returning it
to her. Nancy also applied forand was granted conservatorship over Carrie's bank accounts.
She found that there had been nowithdrawals from her accounts. Her debit
card had been used twice in midNovember at stores in Omaha. Her bank

(46:37):
flagged them as suspicious transactions, andthey froze Carrie's account when she didn't respond
to their call. The relentless emailsand texts showed no signs of abating.
In twenty thirteen, there were thousandsof messages from over thirty different email addresses
and thirty different phone numbers, anda dozen or more Facebook accounts. Mostly

(47:00):
they were coming in to Dave andLiz. Dave alone was receiving an average
of fifty to sixty messages a day, but they were also coming to Amy
and Nancy. Dave and Liz bothallowed the police to download the contents of
their cell phones so that they hadall the evidence. Dave was still very
much avoiding any type of serious relationshipwith Liz, and he was still meeting

(47:22):
other women online. However, whenhe would meet someone, the woman would
usually start getting threatening messages from Carrie. One message said, quote, so
you must be Dave's new horror.He has herpes and the whore he was
dating from the hohore he was dating, I would watch out for him unquote.
Another message said I will come killyou and your fucking kids. I

(47:44):
have killed a dog owned by Dave'slast horror he tried to be with,
Oh my goodness, and another Iknow where you live. I will be
coming for you and your son.I will kill your whole family. Some
of the women were like, yeah, you seem like a nice guy,
Dave, but I don't really needthis. At the same time, Liz
was putting pressure on Dave for moreof a committed relationship, even though she

(48:06):
was still seeing Todd as well withouthim knowing he and Liz they still got
along well enough, but he didn'tlike her constant jealousy and the pressure.
She finally got him to commit togiving her one day a week Wednesday evenings
would belong to Liz in February,I mean, Liz, come on one
day a week. Yeah, wantmore for yourself. In February, Liz

(48:29):
reported two incidents of her car beingvandalized, and in April someone scratched the
words whor stop seeing Dave into theside of her car. Also in April,
Nancy got a call from an unknownnumber. It was a man's voice.
He said it was Dave Krupa andhe was calling to let her know
that Carrie was staying at a homelessshelter in Omaha and wanted Nancy to pick

(48:51):
her up. What hope once againignited inside of Nancy, She called the
police to let them know, andthey met her at the homeless shelter.
The officer asked Nancy to wait inthe parking lot while he went in and
checked to see if Carrie was there, bringing a photo with him. Nancy's
hopes were once again dashed a fewminutes later when he came back shaking his
head. That's so cruel. Iknow it is, isn't it. It's

(49:14):
just horrible. That's one of themost horrible things about this case. Like
you have your daughter is missing,and yet this person keeps trying to give
her some glimmer of hope. Yeah, and then just dashes those hopes over
and over again. In May oftwenty thirteen, now fifteen year old Maxwell
decided to try and make contact withhis mom or the person posing as his

(49:36):
mom. He messaged Carrie on Facebook, just saying hi. The response came
quickly, Hey, little man,how are you? His mom had never
referred to him as little man,but he replied asking Carrie to answer three
questions. Oh smart Max, whatis my middle name? What was the
name of our first boxer? Andwho was my best friend when I was

(49:58):
growing up? Yeah? These werequestions, at least the last two that
only his mom would probably know theanswers to there was no response. One
email sent in May had a pictureof Liz's kids. It looked like it
had been taken from outside her houselooking in through a window. The message
said, quote, these are theugliest kids, just like their horror mom.

(50:20):
They should die with their horror momso I don't have to see their
ugliness anymore. No one wants herand her Brady kids around. Unquote on
May eleventh, Carrie, and Iuse Carrie in quotes from here on out,
because you know it's not really Carrie. But she sent Dave a link
to a page on remembered dot com, which is a site where people post
obituaries and memorials to loved ones.The link was to a page created as

(50:45):
a memorial to Liz with the datesJune twenty eighth, nineteen seventy five to
May eleventh, twenty thirteen. Theobituary said, I didn't know her very
well, except that she was awhore and a man stealer. She kept
stealing my mind. Man. Sheis unable to get her own man,
so that she has to keep takingeveryone else's men. Thank god she has

(51:06):
gone. Good riddance to you.The next day, Dave got an email
that said, quote, I amtrying to hire someone to get rid of
that horror Liz for us. Youtold me before you wanted her gone.
I can't do it myself because thecops will figure it out. The email
continued asking if she should also haveLiz's kids killed. It closed with I
love you, Dave, and I'mglad you're in this with me. I

(51:28):
hope to see you soon, yourbeautiful Carrie. Liz claimed to be terrified,
but Dave did his best to reassureher that Carrie was just trying to
scare her. In June, Davewas at Amy's house seeing his kids,
and when he got back to hisapartment, he found that someone had thrown
a brick through the bedroom window ofhis apartment. Carrie sent him an email

(51:50):
taking responsibility. Also in June,Dave found his car scratched with the message
quote Dave Love's fat horrors unquote.Oh while it may seem obvious now that
it wasn't really Carrie behind all theharassment and vandalism, and we talked about
this a little bit, but Davenever suspected that it wasn't her. Although
Liz had certainly shown a history ofbeing possessive and jealous, he never suspected

(52:15):
her because she was also being targeted, and several times they would both get
messages from Carrie while they were togetherand Liz's phone might be sitting on the
other side of the room. Therewas another thing that happened in twenty thirteen
that should have tipped Dave off.He was walking home from the bar one
night. He didn't used to beto be much of a drinker, but

(52:36):
the constant stress and the relentless onslaughtof messages was getting to him, and
he started making a habit of hangingout at his local watering hole after work.
It was around eleven or twelve atnight, and he was in the
parking lot of his apartment complex walkinghome when he heard a noise. He
looked over and he saw Liz crawlingon the ground. She crept behind a

(52:57):
car like she was hiding from him. Dave called her name a couple of
times, but there was no answer. He was cold, and he was
annoyed and a little bit drunk,and so he just went inside. He
then got a text from her saying, quote, I'm sorry, I'm drunk.
I was over across the street atthe bar with my friends. I
don't know what I'm doing unquote.But this wasn't enough for Dave to suspect

(53:19):
that Liz might be behind all theharassment. In the summer of twenty thirteen,
Liz told Todd that she could nolonger pay her bills and she was
going to become homeless. Todd hadalready helped her a lot, but he
felt bad not only for her,but for her kids, and so he
offered to let them stay at hishouse. His roommate had recently moved out,
so he had the space. Shemoved in, and Todd, thinking

(53:42):
that Liz was his girlfriend, expectedthat she would stay in his room,
but she immediately claimed the basement asher own. You might not be surprised
to hear that Liz was a horribleroommate. She never offered to chip in
for utilities or anything. She wasa slob. She never cleaned up after
herself. The basement quickly became adisaster area, with dirty clothes, trash,

(54:04):
fast food, packaging, and morecovering the floor. She never washed
the dishes. She rarely made dinner. When she did make dinner, it
was just for her and her kids. She never offered anything to Todd.
She loved fast food, and shewould often text Todd from the basement begging
him to drive to McDonald's. Toddwas a pushover, so he would go
and buy dinner for her and thekids, and of course, she never

(54:25):
offered to pay him back. Lizspent most of her time when she was
there hold up in the basement,communicating with Todd via text. The two
did occasionally have sex, but itwas rare. Todd quickly regretted inviting her
to move in and thought that maybeif he paid for everything, she could
save her money and move out sooner. By late summer of twenty thirteen,

(54:47):
Dave was again getting fed up withLiz's jealousy and her nagging, and he
dumped her once again. Soon afterthat, the Omaha Fire Department was called
out to Liz's house. She stillhadn't completely moved out of her government subsidized
house, although most of her stuffwas now at Todd's. When the fire
department arrived at Liz's house, thefire had already burned itself out. It

(55:09):
hadn't burned the whole house down,but it did a lot of damage.
There hadn't been any people inside thehouse, but Liz and her kid's four
pets, two dogs, a cat, and a snake all died from smoke
inhalation. It didn't take long tofigure out that the fire was a result
of arson. There was a gascan on the floor of the living room,

(55:30):
a lighter fluid container in the kitchen, and the fire had originated in
multiple places, which is always suspicious. Liz told investigators that it was carried.
She showed them an email that shehad received early that morning that said,
hope you and your kids burned todeath. Of course, Liz immediately
called Dave, freaking out and begginghim to come see her. He had

(55:52):
dumped her, but now, ofcourse he felt bad because this was all
his fault for letting carry into theirlives, so once again he went and
tried to comfort her. She toldhim she had lost everything, even though
she had really moved almost all ofher stuff to Todd's house already. Once
again, Carrie had somehow brought Daveand Liz back together again. The rest

(56:14):
of twenty thirteen was more of thesame. In August, Carrie texted Nancy,
I'm in Omaha. I'm not hurtMom. I miss everyone too.
I just had a breakdown and Ithink I'm getting over it. I should
have come to my senses sooner andrealized the guy wasn't worth it. Again,
Nancy said, I need to hearyour voice to know it's really you

(56:34):
this time. The reply came,Okay, let me pull over once again.
Nancy's hopes started to rise, butthe call never came. Months ago,
Carrie was supposed to call her whenshe was like, this is this
is the last time, and soshe never Obviously she never called her.
Then yeah, mom, just letit go. Yeah, yep. In

(56:57):
October, Dave showed up at workone day to find a message spray painted
in orange on the front window ofhis shop, Dave Beats Women. In
December, someone broke into Dave's apartment. There was writing on the wall in
red crayon that said go away,whore, and some of Liz's clothing that
was there had been slashed with aknife. As the one year anniversary of

(57:17):
Carrie's disappearance passed, Dave was drinkingregularly to deal with the stress. He
gained forty pounds during the year,and he constantly had dark circles under his
eyes. And with that, Ithink it's a good point to break and
end Part one. Holy moly,I'm like a bobblehead over here shaking my
head at all this crazy story.I know, it's just it. It

(57:39):
is insane, and how long itwent on we're not even insane. Liz
is insane, I mean, yes, yeah, crazy crazy. So the
police, so Carrie has been missingfor how long? Now? A year?
A year? Yeah, and isanyone investigating her disappearance? I don't

(58:00):
think they were actively doing a wholelot. I think they thought it was
a missing person. They kind ofbelieved that, oh, this person's harassing,
so they were investigating, like theharassment. I mean, come on,
yeah, I know it's hindsight istwenty twenty, but yeah, there
should have been. Poor Carrie's mommust have just been beside herself. Yeah,

(58:20):
oh, I'm sure she was.Yeah, and I think she was
trying to get the investigation. Yeah. She kept trying to convince the police
that her daughter was probably not aliveanymore and they needed to investigate, you
know, from that perspective, andthey just weren't having it. Well,
I hope you're gonna tell us howmax Is and Nancy. I will Carrie's
mom, yes, because I amworried about them right now. And Liz

(58:45):
has two kids. How old areher kids? I think they were somewhere
around like maybe nine and eleven yearsold at this point, So those poor
kids have had a very tumultuous upbringing. And I hope they're okay too.
I hope so too. I don'treally have any update on them, but
I will. Yeah, I willtalk about the other folks that you mentioned
at the end of part two,all right, and you sent me some

(59:07):
pictures, which of course we'll post. Is always on social media, but
yeah, Liz is I'm not goingto make fun of anyone's appearance. But
she looks she looks a little crazy. Yeah, Carrie looks like a nice
lady. Oh well that was thatwas quind of ride. Can I unbuckle
yet? Well you can unbuckle fora little bit, but part two it

(59:30):
is not going to be any lesscrazy. So uh, Like I said,
I did hear the story before,but I don't really remember other than
Liz was pretending to be Carrie.So we mentioned twin Flames earlier. Do
you want to tell people about thatfor a minute before we wrap up today?
Sure, just I don't really wantto say too much about it other

(59:52):
than twin Flames is like soulmate tothe Alder soul eight. Yeah, it's
like you're spiritual, like from Godtelling you this is your your soulmate or
your twin Flame yea, and itit started as a podcast, and I
did listen to the podcast part ofit, and I think I forgot to

(01:00:14):
finish it. But then I wasclicking around Amazon Prime, which we don't
really watch much on there, butyeah, for some reason, I watched
one episode and then I was like, well, I need I need I
mean, this is right up ouralley. Yeah, yeah, I need
you to watch it with me.So it's on Amazon and it's called Desperately

(01:00:34):
Seeking Soulmate Escaping Twin Flames Universe,and we're not going to see anything else
other than interesting documentary. I watchedtwo of the three parts, and I'm
very anxious to see the third partbecause I really don't know how what's gonna
end up happening. I know,just I always just seem to know just
a little bit about everything, butyeah I did know a little bit.
So yeah, check that out ifyou are looking for something good to watch.

(01:00:58):
Yeah, it was gonna say ifyou're looking for your twin flame,
but you know, who knows ifthat is real or not. I have
one more thing for you, andI'm I just got this breaking news.
While we're sitting here recording you don'tknow this yet. Your live reaction might
be interesting. Okay, I'm justgoing to read this to you. Jim
Harbaugh of Michigan was suspended from signsideline coaching for the regular season amid sign

(01:01:22):
stealing allegations. Wow he suspended forthree games? Oh yeah, I guess
I was going to say that therest of Yeah, there's only three market
three pretty important games too. Howare you? I need time. I
need a little time to process this. I don't know, I don't know,
I don't know. Huge gainst PennState. Holy crap, I don't

(01:01:44):
know how many people. Probably noone who's listening other than me, you
care. But Michigan is undefeated,They've have a they've had a beautiful season.
They've been ranked up near the topthe whole. So this is a
huge blow. I mean, shameon them if they were actually stealing signs.
I mean, that can't make youproud as a Michigan No, for
sure, as not what a Michiganman does. Well apparently some tips.

(01:02:08):
Wow, Well thanks for sharing that. Really without being able to process that.
As always, I gotta go.You want a tissue? Yeah,
I'm leaving. We have another podcast. Always record here yeah, thank you
everyone for listening. Hope you staytuned and come back for part two.

(01:02:30):
Please rate, review, subscribe,and like and consider supporting us on Patreon,
Patreon dot com, slash love MaryKill, where you can get early
access to episodes, AD free episodes, and when we do a two parter
like this, you can get bothepisodes at the same time. We appreciate
you so much your kind words,messages, reviews. They keep us going

(01:02:53):
and we really do appreciate you.And I feel we talk about this a
lot. We don't real talk aboutit on the podcast. I feel like
an impostor impostor syndrome is real.We started this, you know, as
you know, over a year agoand we still can't believe that people are
listening. So we just want youto know that we truly do appreciate it.

(01:03:15):
We always will. And oh,I have to give a shout out
to a random person in Australia too. By the way, So my boss
who lives in Australia in Melbourne,your boss and friend and friend. He
messaged me a few days ago andhe said, I'm out to lunch in
Melbourne and I was talking about yourpodcast, which is pretty nice of him
to talk about our podcast, andhe said the waitress said, I listened

(01:03:37):
to it and I love it.I was like, you are joking.
I thought he was making that up. He said, no, swear swear
to God, I'm not joking.So maybe the waitress was just shout out
to that anonymous waitress in Melbourne,if you're listening, thank you, And
it just blowl me away to theamount of people that we have that listen
to us. Yeah, domestic ordomestically and around the world, yes,

(01:04:01):
thank you. So until next time, don't kill her husband. Don't kill
your wife. M