Debbie and Anthony Pignataro - Part 2

Dr. Anthony Pignataro was a Buffalo-area plastic surgeon with a taste for luxury and a reputation for confidence (some might say arrogance). He claimed to be an innovator, even creating a bizarre “snap-on hairpiece” that bolted directly to the skull. But beneath the image of success was a trail of questionable surgeries, mounting complaints, and growing chaos at home.

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Today's snack: Sponge candy 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of.

Speaker 3 (00:04):
Marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hey Tina, Hey Rich. How are you today?

Speaker 1 (00:30):
I'm okay. How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:31):
I am doing pretty good.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Good.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm glad you came back.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
Yeah, I honestly was a little upset after the last episode.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
That was distressing.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Case. Yeah, it was disturbing for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, And I was actually reading some I read an
article this morning about emergency rooms and like they're overwhelmed.
We've been watching The Pit lately, which I know we're
a little late to the game on that, but it's
a great show, and I've been thinking, oh, it's a
little bit, you know, it's dramatized, dramatized, it's really not
that bad. But I was reading an article today that
made me feel like, oh my gosh, emergency rooms are

(01:04):
really just overwhelmed.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Well, we live in a rural area, so the emergency
rooms when we've had occasion to go, have never been
that busy. But if you're in a major metropolitan area
like Pittsburgh.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, it's going to be a lot busier.

Speaker 4 (01:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
I remember when I went for my gallbladder. It felt
like I had to wait forever. I know it wasn't
really forever, but oh you did.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Have to wait longer than you should have. But it
was things.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
It was a Thanksgiving weekend, so I think that's why
they were short stuffed, even though there weren't a ton
of people in there, but the probably only one doctor.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
For most people. This episode will air on October twenty seventh,
so right around Halloween.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Oh it is October fifth when we're recording this.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
We're so far ahead of the game.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Well, we won't be for a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Are you feeling Halloween ish yet?

Speaker 3 (01:48):
Well, as we've mentioned before, we're empty nesters, so it
feels kind of weird. We put up some I put
up some fall decorations, but you know, it's just me
and you here most of the time, so I didn't
go all out.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
I put our big black inflatable cat in the front
yard although.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
From Hammocker Slummer, which we love. We bought it last year. Yeah,
I love it's I mean, it's a great piece. It
was expensive, but it's really cool and the neighbor kids
love it and it gives us a lot of great joy.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'll put a picture up of it.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
But the cat's having some issues though. The tail isn't
standing up. I can't figure out why, but I need
to go troubleshoot.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
Well, Hammocker Slummer is going out of business, which is
a huge bummer. So all of their things have a
lifetime warranty.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, so that will maybe not so much anymore.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Just when we bought it, and we paid kind of
a lot for it, we were like, well, you know,
there's ever an issue, we can return it.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, now we're stuck with it.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
It's huge though, it's like thirteen feet tall or something.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, it's really cool. And the eyes light up and
it's yeah, it's really cool.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
We love it.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
I know we need to get rolling on this episode,
but you love a scary movie. If you had to
give one recommendation right now, what would your recommendation be.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
You know that answer is going to change depending on
what day you asked me. But the first thing to
pop into my mind, I'm going to go old school
and say Psycho by Alfred Hitchcock. I'll never forget the
first time I saw that movie. I was probably in
my early twenties. It was on TV at like midnight
and I was just I was at my mom's house
that I was staying up late and I watched it
and I know it's like dated now, but it freaked

(03:18):
me out.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
I have never watched it for that reason, because you
take a shower every day, and I just feel like
it would scare me. I am a high anxiety person anyway.
I'm the jumpiest person you'll ever meet, right, Like, it
doesn't take much.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
I walk into a room and.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
I jump, and I'm like, oh, you scared me. I
save it one hundred times a day. So yes, I'm
very jumpy. So I have not watched that movie on
purpose because I think it would disturb me.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
Well, if you had to recommend one, what would you
pick today?

Speaker 3 (03:45):
Off the top of my head, I don't really know,
but I like a good suspense movie.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
The other day, I finished a.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
Two part case and I was like, I'm gonna just
watch a movie, and I watched The Drop and that
was on Peacock.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
I think, and it was really good.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
So it was not really a horror movie, but.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
It was scary.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
So if you have Peacock, I recommend watching the Drop.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
I thought you were gonna throw out a Halloween because
I know you're a fan of the classic kind of
yeah slasher films.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, that movie is well whenever we've we've watched. We
used to watch it every year on Halloween. But it's
really long, and it takes like forty five minutes to get.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
To any drama.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Really, it's a little slow to get.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
The music is great in that film.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
And yeah, well, let us know if you have recommendations
for a really good horror film.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
It's been weird because it's so warm here. The leaves
are just starting to turn now, but it hasn't felt
like Halloween.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
No, it really hasn't.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Normally we'd be watching a scary movie every weekend, but
we really haven't done that yet.

Speaker 4 (04:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Soon, I made you a snack.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah, with unflavored gelatine. Yeah, it tastes like nothing.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Guessing what it was? Yeah, so what were you guessing?

Speaker 3 (04:50):
Well, you would ask me last night do we have
any unflavored gelatine? And I think we used to, but
we don't anymore. I'm not sure where it went, but
I know that you need gelatin for like a chocolate
cream pie and you love a chocolate cream pie, so
I thought it might be something to do with that.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Gotcha, it's not what it is. So, you know I
like to do snacks. If I can that tie into
the location of the case. Yeah, our case takes place
in Buffalo. Previously, when I did a Buffalo case, I
made you Buffalo wings, right, I didn't want Those were
really good, But I want to.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
Another guest with unflavored gelatin.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
I did a little googling and I found a candy
that Buffalo is known for called I had never heard of,
called sponge candy.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
Okay, have you ever heard of that? I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
It's gonna look familiar to you because it's a lot
like a candy that I know you are a big
fan of.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
Is it honeycomb? Yes, I've always wanted to make that homemade,
and I never have. That is one of my favorites
for sure.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Well here it is. It looks perfect, but I think
the inside is a little chewy or it's not as
well when.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
You get the occasional chewy honey.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Okay, Well you're gonna like this. It might stick to
your teeth though. Okay, what did you think about my
sponge candy.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
I think you're amazing. It's crazy to me that you
just whipped that up this morning.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
In our kitchen. I like a good challenge, you really do.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
I think it's because you only cook for the podcast,
so when you get the opportunity, you're like E cided
to But it looks like professional candy. And we have
a story near us called World Market, and that's where
you can get violet Violet Crumble Crumb viilet Crumble, and
that's one of my favorites. You usually put one in
my Christmas stocking and it looks just like Violet Crumble.
It doesn't taste quite as good, but it's really good.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
The honeycomb part came out definitely a little too dense
and chewy, not as airy, and I like.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
The chewiness in it, but it could have just a
smidgemore flavor. Did you think it was maybe just a
little bland compared to Violet Crumble. But for your first
a little bit, for your first time, that incredible and
you did such a good I can't believe you dipped.
I mean in this mold, there's like thirty pieces, so
you dipped like thirty pieces of honeycomb so.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
I tempered the chocolate and I dipped.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
It, and I think i'd probably the chocolate is a
little dark for me.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
That like a seventy percent sixty five.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Okay, But bravo to you. It's beautiful. There's nothing you
can't do. I really enjoyed it quite a bit.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Good.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
If you hear any loud chewing during the podcast, that
will be me eating this sponge candy.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Would you like to give us a quick recap of
part one?

Speaker 1 (07:23):
Absolutely?

Speaker 3 (07:24):
In part one, we introduced doctor Anthony Pignataro, a Buffalo surgeon,
and his wife, Debbie. Anthony came from a well off family.
His father was a prominent and well respected surgeon, while
Debbie grew up in a more blue collar home. The
couple had two children, Ralph and Lauren. Early in their marriage,
Anthony began showing classic signs of narcissism. He saw himself

(07:46):
as a brilliant innovator in the field of plastic surgery.
In fact, he even invented a permanent hair piece that
attached to the scalp using tiny bolts embedded in the skull.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
They gave me nightmares.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
But behind the bar, Anthony was a dangerously incompetent surgeon.
He refused to admit mistakes and insisted on doing things
his way, even setting up an operating room in the
basement of his clinic where he performed cosmetic procedures without
proper equipment or trained staff. It was only a matter
of time before tragedy struck. That tragedy came in August

(08:21):
nineteen ninety seven, when twenty six year old Sarah Smith
went in for what should have been a routine breast augmentation.
A week later, after she'd been kept alive on life support,
her husband Dan made the heartbreaking decision to let her
go on September first.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Anything that I left out of there that you think
is worth noting.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
We didn't really talk about it at the time that
we were recording. But another patient of his die too,
But that was during a different because he was an
ear nosed throat doctor before he focused on the cosmetic surgery.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, and that one wasn't quite as blatant. It was
a seventy two year old man. I wasn't able to
find out too much detail about that particular surgery, But
that one might not have been, you know, as as
blatantly obvious that Anthony screwed up.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
I guess okay, but Anthony was not a good husband
and he had had at least two affairs that we
know of.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yes correct. In the days after the botched surgery, while
Sarah Smith lay in a coma, Debbie was beside herself.
Despite all the cruelty she had endured from Anthony, the infidelity,
the insults about her weight, the constant belittling, she still
believed he was a gifted surgeon. Debbie tortured herself with guilt,
replaying that awful day in her mind. Had she waited

(09:34):
too long to speak up when Sarah stopped breathing, could
she have somehow prevented the disaster. Anthony, on the other hand,
didn't seem to lose much sleep over it. Almost immediately
he went back to work as if nothing had happened.
He continued performing surgeries, including the same trans umbilical breast
augmentation surgery on another patient the day after Sarah's surgery.

(09:57):
He believed that he has a patient because of his incompetence,
and then the next day he goes back in does
the exact same surgery on another patient.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, that's horrifying.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
In fact, Anthony performed even more surgeries than usual, trying
to squeeze in as many paying patients as possible in
case the Department of Health pulled the plug on his practice.
In the evenings, he hit the gym as usual, had
maybe a few extra drinks, and carried on with life. Overall,
for Dan Smith, there was no carrying on. His twenty
six year old wife was gone. At her wake in

(10:31):
West Seneca, the grief was overwhelming, The story had been
splashed across the news, and the crowd of mourners overflowed
the funeral home. Sarah was buried beside her brother, across
from the church where she and Dan had exchanged vows
a few years earlier.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
That's right, her brother died young from muscular dystrophy, right,
and they were really close.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yes, friends urged Dan to sue, but vengeance wasn't what
he wanted. He didn't even care if Anthony went to prison.
His only wish was to make sure this never harmed
another family again. Eventually, though, Anthony's malpractice insurer did offer
a settlement, and Dan set the money aside in a
fund for the children that Sarah would never get to raise. Meanwhile,

(11:12):
the West Seneca Police and the District Attorney launched their investigation. Normally,
botched surgeries end up in civil court, not criminal, but
after hearing Dan's account, the DA was convinced this case
was different. Anthony Pignataro hadn't just made a mistake, his
recklessness was criminal. Investigators Pat Finnerty and Chuck Craven were

(11:33):
assigned to get to the truth. What they uncovered was staggering.
When they interviewed Anthony, he claimed his lawyers had told
him not to talk, but then he immediately launched into
a self serving version of events, glossing over every possible mistake.
Debbie and seventeen year old Tom Watkins, a high school
kid who worked part time in the office, gave consistent

(11:53):
accounts of the chaos that unfolded that day. In fact, Tom,
the teenager, provided the clearest, most detailed, dec description of
what had happened in that operating room. Then there was Jane,
the twenty four year old LPN. She was the only
other person in the room with any medical training, but
her interview left investigators stunned. She admitted she didn't know

(12:13):
what half the drugs were that she had been injecting.
She just did whatever Anthony told her to do. When
asked what it meant if a patient's oxygen levels dropped
below eighty five, she shrugged, I don't know, but I
know it's not good. She called a scalpel that sharp
thing she couldn't remember the name, and she referred to
the ambu bag, a basic life saving tool, as the

(12:34):
bamboo bag or the little MASKI thing you put on
someone's face when you want them to breathe. This was
the team that Anthony Pignataro had assembled to administer general
anesthesia in a dingy basement. The autopsy confirmed what Dan
and Sarah's family already knew in their hearts. Sarah hadn't
died of some mysterious condition or hidden defect. She had

(12:56):
been given a cocktail of powerful drugs lydocane, codeine, diazepam,
madazolam thiopental at doses so high they shut down her
ability to breathe, and, with no ventilator in the room
no competent staff to help her, she suffocated the official
cause of death asphyxia due to inadequate ventilation under anesthesia.

(13:17):
Armed with a warrant, investigators combed through Anthony's basement operating
room the setup was shocking, outdated, unsafe equipment for general anesthesia,
and diplomas hanging on the wall that turned out to
be forgeries. On August twenty ninth, even before Sarah was
taken off life support, the Department of Health suspended Anthony's
medical license. But Anthony didn't see himself as the problem.

(13:40):
In his bizarre journal we talked about in Part one,
a manuscript he called MD Mass Destruction, he painted himself
as the victim. He blamed Sarah, claiming she had done
cocaine the night before surgery, which was not true. He
blamed the hospital for removing her from life support. He
even claimed her heart and liver were defected, despite the
autopsy proving otherwise. To Anthony, everyone else was at fault,

(14:04):
the patient, the hospital, the DA, the media, anyone but him.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
In January nineteen ninety eight, the district Attorney decided to
put Anthony Pignataro's case before a grand jury. Witnesses were subpoenat,
documents were pulled, and the evidence wasn't limited to Sarah
Smith's death. The jury also heard about Anthony's treatment of
Terry Lamardi.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Terry we talked about in Part one A few weeks
before Sarah Smith came in. He botched a tummy tuck
on her and she went to the yar. She was
lucky to survive.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
Okay, that's right.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
The grand jury returned six indictments manslaughter in the second
degree for recklessly causing Sarah's death bi asphyxia, criminally negligent homicide,
assault in the second degree for causing serious injury through
reckless use of drugs, falsifying business records in the first
degree for lying in his surgical report, Reckless endangerment in

(14:59):
the second degree for trying to discharge Terry Lamarty from
the hospital too soon, criminal possession of a forged instrument
in the third degree for hanging a fake American Board
of Odolaryngology diploma on his wall. The manslaughter charge carried
the heaviest penalty, up to fifteen years in prison. Anthony

(15:19):
was stunned, outraged. How could anyone accuse him of being
a criminal. The attorneys urged him to consider a plea bargain.
Doctors almost never faced criminal charges from ile practice, and
it was impossible to predict how a jury might view
this case. The DA wasn't out for blood. Their priority
was simply to make sure Anthony Pignataro would never endanger

(15:41):
another patient again. But Anthony saw himself as the victim.
He refused to admit guilt. He was determined to fight
through it all. Debbie stayed by his side. Her belief
in his surgical skills had finally started to waver, but
for appearances and maybe out of sheer habit, she stood
with her husband. What she didn't know was that while

(16:02):
she defended him publicly, Anthony was seeing another woman named Tammy,
who he'd met at Gold's gym earlier in nineteen ninety seven.
As the trial date loomed, Anthony's bravado gave a way
to practicality. He struck a deal. He pled guilty to
criminally negligent homicide. As part of the plea, he agreed

(16:23):
to permanently surrender his medical license and to give up
any right to appeal his sentence.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
That is very surprising.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
It is a little surprising that he would give that up.
He must have seen the writing on the wall, that
he knew it was going to happen one way or another.

Speaker 3 (16:36):
On August fourth, nineteen ninety eight, Anthony appeared in court
for sentencing Shrew to form he couldn't resist turning the
spotlight back on himself.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
He said, the.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
Loss of one's patient will forever haunt any moral doctor.
Whatever determination you made a creed cannot be worse than
this pain. This pain alone, I assure you, would be
sufficient to tear any physician from making the same mistake
in the future. But my pain is even greater than that.
If you could see the look of disappointment in the
eyes of my son, the look of fear in my

(17:07):
daughter's eyes, if you could see the pain in my
wife and my mother's heart, the disgrace and failing your
father's memory and reputation, you would know the pain I
feel every moment. Oh boy, just the other day, the
Shawn Combs was sentenced. I mean, it's just these people,

(17:28):
these narcissists, the statements that they release upon you know,
their sentencing is just such Bs.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yes, for sure, it may have.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Sounded heartfelt at first, but listen closely. Every word was
about his pain, his humiliation, his loss of face. Not Sarah,
not Dan, not the young life cut short with Anthony.
It was always about Anthony. In the end, the judge
followed the DA's recommendation six months in prison, five years

(17:57):
probation and a twenty five hundred dollars fine.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
It was a slap on the wrist.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
Many of his former patients were angry, disappointed that he
wouldn't surve real time for what he'd done.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
Still, there was some relief.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
At least finally, doctor Anthony Pignataro would never practice medicine again.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
What do you think about that sentence?

Speaker 3 (18:18):
I mean, it's very light.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
It makes me mad.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
Yeah, I'm just curious if there were other patients that
must have had some lingering problems from the surgeries that
he performed.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, there definitely were. I didn't find a lot of
information about the other patients other than Terry Lamarty, who
we talked about, but there were definitely others.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
If Anthony kept his nose clean, he would only serve
about four months behind bars, So he tried to keep
his head down. But there was one problem. For years,
Anthony had been feeding an addiction by stealing painkillers from
patients from Debbie from anywhere he could. Now locked away,
he had no supply. That's when another inmate, Arnie Ledovich,

(19:02):
took him under his wing.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
I should mention Arnie Ludovich is a pseudonym that Anne
Rule used in her book.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Arnie told Anthony that he could smuggle heroin into the prison.
For Anthony, heroin was an easy substitute for the painkillers
he craved. Life inside wasn't easy for the once flamboyant doctor.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
He wasn't allowed to wear this too. Fay his bald
head with metal screws sticking out true stairs, I.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Love this be for laughing, but really funny.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
Was a little obsessed with these screws and the whole
two pay business.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yea.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Other prisoners called him Frankenstein and figured he was a lunatic.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Despite the humiliation, Anthony had steady support Debbie, the kids,
and his mother visited faithfully twice a week. He called
them collect whenever he could, and exchanged letters with his children.
Debbie clung to hope. Maybe this would finally change him,
Maybe prison would break through his arrogance. Anthony spent much
of his time working out, and when he was released

(20:03):
after just four months, he bragged that he was in
the best physical shape of his life. But he's like
completely addicted to heroin at this point.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
Right yes.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
Back home, he played the role of family man. His
first day back, he watched hours of Ralph's junior high
football games on video, the season Anthony had missed while
locked up. Ralph, the undefeated quarterback, was overjoyed that his
dad finally seemed interested. Anthony also paid attention to Lauren's gymnastics,
encouraging her routines. For Debbie, it was like the husband

(20:34):
she always wanted had finally come home. He wasn't drinking,
he was attentive. He even threw himself into his community
service at a therapeutic writing center for underprivileged and disabled kids.
The work seemed to soften him, to give him purpose.
The couple capped off this new beginning by renewing their
wedding vows at the very church where they'd first been married.

(20:55):
For Debbie, was a symbol of their fresh start, a
promise that maybe, just maybe the worst was finally behind them.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
So what were they doing for money?

Speaker 2 (21:04):
We'll talk a little more about that. But Debbie was working,
Anthony was going to try to find a job out
of prison. But they always had his mother to fall
back on. His parents had a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
Oh okay, his dad was gone, so.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Lena, his mom was always willing to help out as well.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Okay, and again I don't think if we mentioned this
in part two, but his father was a well known
physician who had passed away not that long before. Right,
We'll be back after a break.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
But the fresh start didn't last long. Anthony's mistress, Tammy
had never really gone away. She had written to him
while he was in prison, and he had written back.
Tammy's jealous ex boyfriend, who happened to be a lawyer,
discovered the affair and decided to blow it up. He
mailed Debbie a letter exposing Anthony's relationship with Tammy and
enclosed one of Anthony's prison love letters as proof. This

(22:00):
is the second time now that Debbie has found out
about an affair in kind of a weird way, like
from somebody sending her something or sharing something a proof
of Anthony's infidelity.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
That does seem very cruel.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, and I'm not sure what the best way to
find out that your spouse is having an affair, but.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, probably no good way. But that does seem, especially.

Speaker 3 (22:19):
Especially during this time when Debbie is having this to
do sense that they're having a fresh start and maybe
Anthony has changed. That must have been particularly devastating at
that time.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Well for Debbie. It was crushing. She had stood by
Anthony through humiliation, disgrace and prison. She had renewed her vows,
convinced herself that he had finally changed, and now this
she felt like a fool. But instead of confronting him
with rage, Debbie played it cool. She showed him the letter,
pretended she was willing to move past it, and quietly

(22:51):
began calculating her next steps. What would be best for
her children? Could she finally break free? And as much
as she hated to admit it, some part of her
still loved him. Meanwhile, Anthony was drifting. He couldn't land
a job, not that he seemed to be trying very hard.
Their finances were in free fall, and it was only
Anthony's mother, Lena, who kept the family afloat. Anthony bought

(23:13):
Debbie a new Cadillac as a celebration of their renewed vows,
but of course he drove it most of the time.
To Anthony, appearances mattered more than anything. A man had
to look successful, even if he was broke. He also
reconnected with his old prison heroine supplier, Arnie Leedovich. Arnie
had been released around the same time, and the two

(23:34):
began shooting up Heroin together. Sometimes Anthony even brought Tammy along.
Debbie knew something was wrong. He was constantly withdrawing money
from their bank account, always dazed and checked out. Then
one day in late February nineteen ninety nine, she happened
to drive by Tammy's house. Parked in the driveway was
her Cadillac, the car that Anthony had claimed for himself.

(23:57):
That was a breaking point. Debbie pulled in after her
minivan in Tammy's driveway and drove the Cadillac home a
good way to send a message, huh yeah. When Anthony
saw the minivan, he knew instantly what had happened. He
called Debbie, desperate, insisting it's not what it looks like.
Debbie hung up. She was fed up. She changed the
locks on the house, drained nearly all the money from

(24:19):
their joint bank account, leaving only five thousand dollars behind.
Message received. Anthony moved into an apartment of his own.
He called home daily to speak with Ralph and Lauren,
but Debbie refused to speak with him. The fallout with
Anthony sent Debbie spiraling. She sank into a deep depression.
Her neck injuries left her in constant pain, which made
it almost impossible to sleep. Exhausted and overwhelmed, she turned

(24:43):
to a psychiatrist who prescribed xanax. It helped a little,
but never enough. Two days after finding her Cadillac parked
at Tammy's house, Debbie hit a breaking point. She took
two xanax. When the pills didn't seem to help, she
swallowed two more. Her thoughts dull, her body heavy, she
reached out for more again. The moment the last pills

(25:04):
went down, panic set in. She realized she might have
gone too far. Desperate, she called her mother, who immediately
dialed nine one one. Debbie was hospitalized for a couple
of days, just long enough for the excess xanax to
clear from her system. Later, she insisted it wasn't a
suicide attempt. She wasn't trying to end her life. She said,

(25:24):
she just felt exhausted from the pain, from the sleepless nights,
from Anthony's betrayals. She wanted relief, not death. But regardless
of her intent, the incident left to Mark, and soon
what Debbie saw as a moment of weakness would come
back to haunt her in ways that she could never
have imagined through all of this, Anthony's mother, Lena, had

(25:45):
always been his fiercest defender. To her, Anthony could do
no wrong. Debbie, with her blue collar background, had never
measured up in Lena's eyes, but Anthony's affair with Tammy
crossed the line that even Lena couldn't ignore. Furious that
her son had been destroyed his family, she unleashed her
anger in a blistering letter. I'm not playing games with

(26:05):
you now or ever, she wrote. You and your whore
deserve each other. I hate you both. If you think
you can do this to your family and get away
with it, you are nuts. I will not let you
hurt or scar my grandchildren. I will get even with
you before I die. You don't deserve the Pigmataro name,
she went. Wow, I know this is a brutal letter
to receive from your mom. She went further. She told

(26:28):
Anthony she was cutting him out of her will, that
he shouldn't bother showing up to her funeral, and that
she intended to advise Debbie to sue him. She closed
with a line that must have stung. I never thought
I would say it, but I'm glad Daddy's gone. He
can't see what you are doing to us. The letter
hit its mark. For once, Anthony seemed truly remorseful. He

(26:50):
began showing up at the house playing the role of
the repentant husband, apologetic, attentive, considerate. When Debbie underwent her
fifth and next surgery that April, Anthony was suddenly the
picture of support. He visited her in the hospital, cared
for the kids, and presented himself as the best version
of Anthony Pignataro.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, we've seen that before, Anthony.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
With Anthony, that best version never lasted long. Even as
Anthony played the part of the reformed husband, Debbie couldn't
shake her unease. She was nervous about being alone in
the house, especially after Anthony told her he had received
a death threat. Then came the vandalism. One night, someone
spray painted killer, Killer Killer across her sliding glass doors

(27:33):
and scrawled die fucker on the fence. Debbie was terrified.
She reported it to the police, but there were no leads.
What nagged at her was the silence of her dog, Polo.
Polo barked at everyone, delivery drivers, neighbors, strangers walking by,
But the night of the vandalism, Polo hadn't made a sound.
There was one person he never barked at, and that

(27:55):
was Anthony. In May, Anthony asked if he could spend
the night. Hadn't been sleeping well, and with the vandalism
still fresh in her mind, she wanted the security of
another adult in the house. She asked him point blank
if he was still seeing Tammy. He swore it was over,
and Debbie agreed to let him stay around the same time,

(28:15):
Anthony lined up a job interview in Philadelphia with a
surgical supply company. Driving across state lines was a clear
violation of his probation, but he went anyway. He didn't
get the job. By the summer, Anthony was spending more
and more time at the duplex. His clothes disappeared from
his apartment and reappeared in Debbie's closet. By July of

(28:36):
nineteen ninety nine, he was essentially back home. Debbie, still
shaken by threats and vandalism, decided it was safer easier
to let him back in for good.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
Anthony decided what the family needed was a change of scenery.
All of his siblings had moved to Florida. One was
a position, the others ran a string of dairy queen franchises.
So in Florida, you can probably your dairy queen open
year round.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Here.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
If you're in Florida, you'd probably we close them like
from this time of year. They're closed usually till March exactly.
Anthony figured they could find a place for him there,
maybe managing the family business, maybe reinventing himself. There was
just one problem, probation. He wasn't allowed.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
To leave New York.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
His lawyer thought transferring probation to Florida wouldn't be difficult,
but then Judge Tillis reviewed the request and he flatly
denied it. The judge explained his concern Florida was too
close to Puerto Rico, where Anthony had gone to medical school,
and the rest of the Caribbean. If Anthony wanted to
vanish and quietly start practicing medicine again, it would be

(29:44):
far too easy. Anthony was furious, but Debbie felt a
quiet sense of relief. She didn't want to uproot her
children or leave behind her mother and brother. Still, the
family needed income. With Anthony unemployable, Debbie took a job
as a receipt ouptionist in a pediatrician's office. Her modest paycheck,
supplemented by Lena's support, was all that kept the household afloat.

(30:08):
Not long after Anthony began working his way back into
Debbie's home and good graces, her health began to falter.
In May, she was struck with sudden, excruciating stomach pain
and rushed to the er. The doctor suspected pancreatitis. When
the pain subsided, they sent her home, and Debby chalked
it up to stress. God knew she'd had enough of that.

(30:31):
But the relief didn't last. Over the next month, Debby
continued to feel sick. She had waves of severe abdominal pain,
bouts of vomiting, and a constant bloated, distended feeling. Eating
became difficult, food wouldn't stay down. As the weeks went by,
her strength drained away. Some days she couldn't do anything
but lie in bed.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
She stopped wanting to leave the house.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
There were good days and bad days, but no pattern,
no explanation. Anthony suddenly became the picture of a devoted husband,
stepping in to care for Debbie and the children. Her
mother pitched in too, picking up groceries and helping around
the house. By July, the bad days outnumbered the good.
Debbie began missing work more and more. Food tasted strange, metallic,

(31:18):
Her memory faltered, life blurred into a haze. One day,
she was so disoriented that she wandered into a neighbour's
home without realizing it. She couldn't explain what she was
doing there. On July twenty first, she was hospitalized again.
Doctors remained convinced it was pancreatitis, but couldn't explain the cause.

(31:39):
When asked what she had eaten, Debbie struggled to remember. Finally,
she recalled a bowl of lipt in soup Anthony had
made for her just before her symptoms had worsened. Her
daughter Lauren had eaten some too, and within hours was
violently ill, vomiting and missing her gymnastics meet. Doctors kept
Debby in the hospital for four days, but answers now came.

(32:00):
On July twenty fifth, she was once again discharged. The
next two weeks at home were a blur. Debbie's health spiraled.
On August eighth, the friend stopped by and was horrified
by her appearance. Debbie was gaunt, weak, barely able to stand.
The friend confronted Anthony shouldn't Debbie be in the hospital,
Anthony snapped, I'm a doctor. Don't you think I would

(32:22):
know what's best for her. She's much better off under
my supervision. To other friends and family, he brushed it off,
Oh she'll be all right, just a little virus. But
Debbie wasn't all right by now. She could barely walk.
Her limbs alternated between numbness and agonizing pain. Finally, Anthony
relented and took her back to the hospital. Doctors ran

(32:43):
test after test, lime disease, unlikely, giambret no meningitis, spinal
tap rolled it out. Despite their efforts, they were baffled.
Debbie's condition was worsening, and.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
No one could explain why.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
At last, doctors began to suspect something beyond illness. They
considered toxins. Debbie loved gardening. She could have accidentally ingested
a chemical or a fertilizer. They ran urine tests for
possible poisons. The results stunned them. Debbie's body contained arsenic,
not just to trace, but a massive, almost unimaginable amount,

(33:20):
more than twenty nine thousand micrograms per liter. It was
a number so high that doctors could barely process it.
They had never seen anything like it before. Frankly, they
couldn't believe Debbie was still alive. Suddenly, all her baffling
symptoms fell into place. The numbness and memory loss pointed
to chronic exposure small doses of arsenic over time. The

(33:43):
waves of vomiting, diarrhea and agonizing pain were signs of
acute exposure. A massive dose given all at once, someone
had been poisoning Debbie. Anthony, of course, rejected the diagnosis.
He insisted the doctors were wrong. In his medical opinion,
Debbie simply needed her gallbladder removed. He practically demanded they

(34:06):
perform a Chola systectomy. Her doctors refused. Surgery in her
fragile state would have been a death sentence. Instead, they
started Debbie on coalation therapy, a grueling treatment that uses
binding agents to pull arsenic from the body so that
it can be excreted. But Debbie's levels were so dangerously
high that even with treatment, survival was far from certain.

(34:29):
The process would take nineteen long days, and no one
knew if she had that much time. So we've done
other cases where we've had arsenic poisoning, and Debbie is
really lucky that she's still alive at this point, because
some people like their bodies just shut down. Autumn Cline
was a case that I did not that long ago,
and yeah, she was in really, really bad shape.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
It is really amazing that she was still alive.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
By law, a diagnosis of arsenic poisoning had to be
reported to authorities for the DA and investigat Pat finner
Tea and Chuck Craven, the same team who had worked
on the Sarah Smith case. The news came as no surprise.
Another woman close to Anthony Pignataro was in critical condition.
They contacted poison Control to get expert advice. When they

(35:15):
explained that the patient's arsenic levels were over twenty nine
thousand micrograms per leader, the expert interrupted, when's the funeral?
Hearing that Debbie was still alive left them stunned. Investigators
sat down with Anthony and asked him directly, did you
try to kill your wife? Anthony looked down, hesitated, then muttered, well,

(35:36):
I can see how someone would think that. It wasn't
a confession, but his body language told the investigators everything
they needed to know. Anthony tried to spin the story.
He admitted he and Debbie had marital problems, but insisted.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Those were behind them.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
Then he floated his own theories. Maybe terrorists had poisoned
the county's water supply.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
It makes perfect sense, doesn't it, Miss.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
But no one else in the name her hood was sick.
When that didn't stick, he blamed Dan Smith, the widower
of Sarah Smith, suggesting this was his revenge. But Dan
had moved away long ago, and the evidence showed Debbie
had been poisoned repeatedly over time. That theory didn't hold
much water either. Meanwhile, Debbie began to rally. On August

(36:20):
twenty seventh, she left the ICU. The numbness in her
arms and legs had turned into searing pain, which to
the doctor's was actually a hopeful sign that her nerves
weren't completely destroyed. It looked like she would survive, but
recovery would be long. Doctors doubted she'd ever walk again.
Physical therapy focused on her arms and hands in the

(36:41):
hope that she could one day at least feed herself
and hold a pen. Strangely, Debbie never asked how she
could have been poisoned. Maybe she didn't want to know,
or maybe she wasn't denial. She even suggested that Anthony
and the children be tested for arsenic exposure, remembering how
Lauren had been sick after lippd in soup. All of
them tested within a normal range, though Laurence levels were

(37:05):
slightly elevated. Debbie's mental faculties are still okay.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
I think so. Yeah. I think she went through a
period where she was in a fog, but I think
as she recovered in the hospital, her mental acuity came back.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
That's amazing.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
Family tensions boiled over at the hospital. Anthony's mother, Lena,
who had briefly turned against her son after the affair,
was now firmly back in his corner. With Debbie fighting
for her life. Lena showed up to lash out at
her daughter in law. You did this to yourself and
you're trying to frame my son, she snapped. If you
really believe that, then get.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Out of here.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
Debbie shot back, you know what you did, you liar, liar,
Lena screamed. Debbie's brother Carmine ordered her to leave and
she never visited again.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
That is nuts, it really is. And she knew her
her son.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Was yeah, and Debbie never once even acuesday anthety of
doing it, so it wasn't like Debbie was trying to
frame him. Lena seemed like even the letter that she
wrote to Anthony that we read a little bit of earlier,
she just seems to kind of she seems sort of extreme,
like she kind of goes from one extreme to the other, Like, Anthony,
you're the worst person in the world, Debbie, You're trying

(38:14):
to frame myself for murder.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
Anthony, in contrast, was the picture of devotion. He visited
Debbie every day, reassuring her that they were a team
and needed to stick together. Investigators pressed on. They collected
a sample of Debbie's hair, knowing arsenic leaves a timeline
in the strands. The results were damning. Debbie's arsenic levels
were normal until June that may began to creep upward.

(38:39):
In July, they spiked dramatically. Between August tenth and August
twenty sixth, the levels surged again, showing two massive doses
layered on top of weeks of chronic exposure.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
It's one of the most interesting things I've learned in
doing these cases when there's arsenic poisoning, that the hair
is essentially like a timeline.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah, that is really interesting.

Speaker 4 (38:59):
It's really cool.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
The conclusion was undeniable. Debby had been poisoned deliberately, repeatedly,
with both small daily doses and at least two major
attempts to finish her off. Investigators were certain Anthony was responsible,
but they faced two problems. Debbie wasn't turning at her husband,
and they still hadn't found the source of the arsenic.

(39:20):
A search of the home turned up nothing. Lauren mentioned
that her father once placed small tins of aunt poison
around the house, but none were recovered. We'll be back
after a break.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
While Debbie was still in the hospital fighting to recover,
she and Anthony were blindsided. Both were served with a
petition alleging that Ralph and Lauren were neglected children. The
state was considering removing them from their parents' custody. For Debbie,
it was humiliating. She believed it stemmed from her request
that the children be tested for arsenic. Instead of protecting them,

(40:00):
she was now accused of failing them. For the time being,
the kids were placed with Debbie's brother, Carmine and his wife. Meanwhile,
investigators looking into Debbie's poisoning caught a break, and it
came from an unlikely source. Arnie Leedevitch, Anthony's old prison
buddy and heroine supplier, saw the news about Debbie's poisoning
and contacted authorities. By then, Arnie was in custody on

(40:23):
misdemeanor drug charges. The DA made it clear there would
be no deals. The only thing they could offer was
immunity for whatever he revealed. Arnie didn't care. He didn't
want leniency. What he asked for instead was help getting
into a long term rehab program. And then he dropped
the bomb. Anthony, he said, had a girlfriend named Tammy.

(40:44):
The authorities weren't aware of his girlfriend. The three of them, Anthony, Tammy,
and Arnie had done heroin together on multiple occasions. But
that wasn't all. Back in May, Anthony had asked Arnie
where he could get poison. At first, Arne brushed it off,
but in June Anthony raised the subject again. He claimed
that Debbie was driving him crazy, checking up on him constantly.

(41:08):
She had to go. Anthony told him that was right
around the time Debbie first began feeling sick. Arnie told
investigators he had made plenty of mistakes as a drug addict,
but murder wasn't one.

Speaker 4 (41:19):
Of them.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
He wanted no part of Anthony's plans. He agreed to
cooperate to make sure Anthony could never hurt anyone again.
Investigators cross checked his story against phone logs and prison records.
The relationship between Anthony and Arnie was real, their contact undeniable.
Everything lined up for the first time, investigators had a
credible insider willing to testify. Through all of this, Debbie

(41:43):
still wasn't ready to turn against Anthony. The DA knew
they needed her cooperation, so they sent in Sharon Simon,
their victim's advocate, to build trust. It worked. Sharon and
Debbie connected almost immediately. Sharon became less like an advocate
and more like a therapist. She gently asked Debbie about
her childhood, about losing her baby girl, about losing her father. Slowly,

(42:08):
Debbie opened up. Over time, Sharon helped Debbie see something
that she hadn't admitted to herself. Somewhere along the way,
she had lost her own identity. She had poured herself
into Anthony's career, into keeping their marriage together, into raising
her children. There was nothing left for herself. She couldn't
imagine a life without Anthony, because her whole world had

(42:30):
been built around him. Sharon didn't push too hard, but
she sensed the truth. Deep down. Debbie knew who had
poisoned her. She just wasn't ready to face it. The
final straw came in mid September. Debbie was still in
the hospital when Anthony stopped by for one of his
daily visits. Not long after, Dennis Sinta, a family law

(42:51):
attorney married to Debbie's cousin Maria, walked into the room.
He had been helping her with the child neglect case,
but that wasn't why he was there that day. Dennis
glared at Anthony and snapped, get out and don't come back. Startled.
Anthony left. Then Denis turned to Debby. He told her
what he had discovered. While she lay in the ICU

(43:12):
fighting for her life. Anthony had sent a card to
his girl friend. If you knew how much I missed you,
he wrote, you would be with me. Anthony had sworn
that affair was long over.

Speaker 4 (43:23):
It wasn't.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Dennis didn't mince words. If Debby wanted her children back,
she had to cut Anthony out of her life. She
couldn't have both. It was Anthony or the kid's for Debby.
The decision was devastating but clear. With tears in her eyes,
she told her family she didn't want Anthony visiting her
any more. For the first time, Debby chose herself and

(43:46):
her children over Anthony. In October, still confined to a
hospital bed, Debby twitched her fingers, then lifted one leg.
The nurses burst into tears. After weeks of uncertainty, it
felt like a small miracle, but miracles don't pay hospital bills.
By the end of the month, Debbie's insurance was running out.

(44:06):
Her options were grim transferred to a nursing home style
rehab facility, or go home and somehow assemble twenty four
hour care that she couldn't afford. Her mother offered to help,
but she couldn't be there around the clock. That's when
Debbie's friend, Shelley stepped forward. Debbie protested it was too
much to ask, but Shelley insisted. For the next six months,

(44:30):
Shelley arrived at Debbie's door every morning at six am.
She dressed her brushed her teeth, did her hair, applied
her makeup, the rituals that make a person feel like themselves.
Then every four hours, Shelley returned to help with whatever
Debbie needed.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Shelley sounds like an amazing friend. I know, It's just
that's so selfless.

Speaker 4 (44:50):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Meanwhile, the children were still living with Debbie's brother while
the neglect case worked its way through the courts. Both
parents had visitation. Debbie kept her distance from Anthony, seeing
him only when their visits happened back to back. Anthony
had moved in with his mother any chance he got.
He begged Debbie to let him come home, but she
stayed firm. After everything, the lies, the affairs, the poisoning,

(45:15):
she was finally done for good.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Did he know the position that he put her in
with the children.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
I think Anthony didn't think about those things. You know,
it was all about himself. He didn't really care.

Speaker 3 (45:26):
But if she let him back in the home, she
was endangering her custody of her children.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Right, Yeah, I don't think he probably saw it that way.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
Investigators were still hunting for the source of the arsenic.
Their only lead was something Debbie's daughter, Lauren had mentioned
she'd seen her dad putting out little tins of ant
poison around the house. They knew that taro and Killer,
common household product, had contained arsenic decades earlier, and had
even been used in several infamous spousal poisonings. But when

(45:56):
they contacted the company, they learned Taro hadn't used arsenic
for years. The Taro representative did, however, point them toward
another manufacturer, Grand Slab, in California, they still produced an
ant killer containing arsenic trioxide. When investigators called the company's COO,
he confirmed it. Their ant killer contained between point three

(46:20):
five and point four six percent arsenic trioxide and was
sold in small round tins, similar to what Lauren had described.
At that concentration, roughly eight tins would hold enough poison
to deliver a fatal dose to a one hundred and
fifty pounds adult.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
This really surprised me that at this time, in the
late nineteen nineties, that you could still buy ant poison
containing arsenic. I would I assumed it had been banned
long before that.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
We to day those things all the time. Yeah, our
old house with like parades of ants.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
Oh yeah, that just.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
Laughed at us every time whatever we put out.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
Right, Yeah, but from what I understand today, no ant
poisoning or insecticide contains arsenic anymore.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Good to know.

Speaker 3 (47:03):
Checking locally, investigators discovered that a target store in the
Buffalo suburb cheek Towaga stocked the Grand Slab's product. Anthony
could have walked in and purchased it without anyone noticing.
If he paid cash, there would be no paper trail.
Anthony's credit card records did show purchases at that target store,
giving investigators a circumstantial link, but if he'd actually bought

(47:26):
the ant killer there, he'd been smart enough to pay cash.
By early two thousand, the DA worried that Anthony was
preparing to run. They still didn't have enough to charge
him with Debby's poisoning, but they did have leverage violations
of his probation. Investigators had uncovered two major breaches. Anthony
had crossed s date lines for that Philadelphia job interview,

(47:49):
and he'd been using drugs. Both were clear violations. On
February first, two thousand, Anthony was arrested and taken into custody.
Lena posted his fifty thousand dollars bail, but this time
he was ordered to wear an electronic ankle bracelet. Only
days later, Anthony made another mistake. He called Debbie despite

(48:12):
a no contact order. Debbie reported this violation. Anthony was
hauled back to jail, and this time his bail was
set so high that even Lena couldn't cover it. Anthony
was stunned to him Debbie's decision to report the call
wasn't just compliance with the law, it was betrayal. It
may have been the moment he realized for the first

(48:34):
time that he had truly lost her.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
In March two.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
Thousand, Anthony was sentenced to between sixteen and forty eight
months in prison for a violating probation.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Wow, that's pretty steep.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
I guess when you violate probation, your sentence is essentially
going to prison for the term the rest of the
term of your probation. And he was on a five
year probation.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
Period, okay, and then his problems got even worse. A
month later, an Eerie County grand jury heard the evidence
in Debby's poisoning. In April twenty seventh, Anthony Pignataro was
indicted for attempted murder in the second degree, assault in
the first degree, and three accounts of criminal possession of
a controlled substance in the seventh degree. While the criminal

(49:20):
case moved forward, the family court hearings dragged on. Debbi
was frustrated she had fought to survive arsenic poisoning and
still she didn't have her children back. Caseworkers knew the truth.
Debbie was blameless, she was a good mother. Quietly, they
allowed Ralph and Lauren to spend more time at home,
but officially the children remained in limbo. The main obstacle

(49:42):
was the xanax overdose from the year before, which some
still labeled as a suicide attempt. That single incident hung
over Debby's head like a cloud. A trial on the
child neglect charges was scheduled for June thirteenth, two thousand.
Both Debbie and Anthony would stand as defendants. In the
middle of it all, Ralph turned thirteen and he decided

(50:04):
to write his father a letter in prison. It wasn't
the kind of letter a.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
Child should ever have to write.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
Ralph confronted his dad directly, Why are you telling people
Mom put you in jail? Why are you feeding Grandma
lies about her? What about the heroine and heroin with Tammy?
Why did you have to be so stupid? Even I
know better.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
You're a doctor.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
You should definitely know right from wrong.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
That was wrong.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
He begged his father to stop poisoning his relationship with Lena,
to take responsibility to help his family. Please help out dad,
he wrote, I know you want to in your heart.
Anthony's reply, in essence, none of it was his fault.
At the June hearing, the judge delivered his verdict, Anthony
was guilty of child neglect. Debby was found innocent, and

(50:53):
then the judge turned to Anthony and spoke words that
cut like a knife. You are a miserable human being
being who failed everybody. You have done something that is
so wrong. You have destroyed your life and inflicted incredible
physical and psychological pain on your wife. At long last,
Ralph and Lauren were officially allowed.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
To come home and live with Debbie.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
Do you sometimes wish that you could be a judge
so you could deliver like he's just hurts.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (51:22):
I love it when I read something like that, for
someone who so richly deserves to hear those words.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
But Anthony probably did not hear the words.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
No, I'm sure he didn't.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
Even as the family court battle played out, the DA
pressed forward with a poisoning case. A trial date was
set for October two thousand. Once again, Anthony scoffed at
the idea of a plea deal. The problem for prosecutors
was that the case was almost entirely circumstantial. Anthony had
the motive and the opportunity, but there was no direct

(51:51):
evidence tying him to the Arsenic They had Arnie Ledovitch's testimony,
but every defense attorney loves to dismantle the credibility of
a jailhouse snitch. Then, almost like a floodgate opened, more
informants began pouring in. The prosecutor later joke, We've never
had so many informants. We had a conga line of

(52:11):
them coming across Delaware Avenue to tell us about Anthony Pignataro.
One was a former patient who claimed Anthony had once
said he needed to find someone to kill his wife.
Three more were inmates who said that during his current
stint in prison, Anthony had been putting out feelers for
a hit man to silence Arnie Ledovich. In Anthony's mind,

(52:32):
Arnie was the only thing standing between him and an acquittal.
In August, investigators arranged for one of the informants to
connect Anthony with a supposed hit man who was in
reality and undercover Eerie County Deputy Fluent and Spanish.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Apparently, Anthony thought that if he spoke Spanish to this
alleged hit man on his prison call, that the people
listening in to the prison calls wouldn't pick up on
what he was talking about.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
Yeah, on a recorded call, Ane Anthony offered ten thousand
dollars to have Arny killed. He even provided details about
how and when he would deliver payment. That tape was
a game changer. The DA brought it straight to Anthony's lawyer,
warning that new charges for conspiracy to commit murder were
about to be added. Suddenly, Anthony's defiance evaporated. Backed into

(53:22):
a corner, Anthony agreed to a deal. He would plead
guilty to a lesser charge, withdraw all his motions, and
waive his right to appeal. He would admit to poisoning
Debbie and supposedly reveal where he got the arsenic. The
last part, though he never followed up on authorities never
learned exactly how he obtained the poison. In exchange, Anthony's

(53:45):
sentence was capped at between five and fifteen years. Sentencing
was scheduled for early two thousand and one for Debbie.
Anthony's admission was more than just legal leverage.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
It was validation. After years of.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Betrayal, denial, and manipulation, he had finally admitted what he
had done. It lifted a weight off her shoulders and
gave her the freedom to move on. In October two thousand,
she filed for divorce.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
As his sentencing date approached, Anthony turned once again to manipulation.
His best hope for leniency, he decided, was Debbie. He
wrote letters to her and the kids, begging for forgiveness,
asking her to write a supportive letter to the judge.
He also wrote to his mother, Lena, instructing her to
pressure Debbie on his behalf. In that letter, Anthony's words

(54:34):
revealed his true mindset. Even if it's all phony and
you don't truly mean it, you could do it for me.
You will never have to see her again anyway. What
she tells Judge Rosetti will determine how much time he
gives me. Every day that you save me is worth it.
You wouldn't have to see her. You could just call
on the phone and be nice. I know it would
kill you, but it will help me. But even Lena,

(54:57):
his most loyal defender, couldn't bring herself to make that
go by this point, she despised Debbie too much, and
she wasn't willing to swallow her pride even for her son.
It really bothers me that Lena hates Debbie so much,
like Debbie is completely blameless at all this. I don't
I understand, like wanting to stand by your child, but

(55:17):
just seems a little out of touch.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Debbie, however, did write a letter to the judge, but
it wasn't the glowing endorsement that Anthony had imagined. Instead,
she laid bare the truth Anthony's infidelities, his broken promises,
the years she had spent trapped in his shadow. She
described her long, painful recovery. She could now walk without braces,
bathe and feed herself, even drive, but her body was

(55:42):
still numb, her legs aching constantly, her hands unable to
perform fine motor tasks. She told the judge she wasn't
seeking revenge. She only wanted to protect her children, and
she would never feel safe with Anthony free on the streets.
At sentencing, Anthony pleaded for portraying himself as a man
who deserved a second chance, but Judge Rosette wasn't swayed.

(56:05):
Anthony had been given chance after chance and squandered them all.
The judge handed down the maximum fifteen years, the top
of the range, and when it came to whether the
sentence would run concurrently or consecutively with the four year
term he was already serving for probation violation, the judge
again showed no mercy. The sentences would be consecutive. Rosette

(56:27):
also signed an order of protection for Debbie and the
children to last three years after Anthony's eventual release. One
week later, Debbie's divorce was finalized. After years of abuse, betrayal,
and survival against the odds, she was finally free with
time off for good behavior. Anthony Pignataro walked free in

(56:47):
twenty thirteen after serving thirteen years. He was fifty five
years old. Most people would assume that after poisoning your wife,
losing your medical license, and spending over a decade in prison,
you might try to keep a low profile. Not Anthony.
A couple of years after his release, a new business
popped up in West Seneca, Tony Hote Cosmetique and Skincare.

(57:11):
The business's website introduced Tony Hot as a renowned scientist
and physician locals squinted at the headshot on the site.
The slick looking Tony Hot bore a suspicious resemblance to
a disgraced plastic surgeon. They remembered from the evening news.
Reporters dug deeper, and sure enough, Tony Hote was none

(57:31):
other than Anthony Pignataro, now operating under a new fancier name. Apparently,
in Anthony's mind, you could just swap your last name
for something French sounding and pretend the whole murder and
poisoning thing had never happened. His website advertised the first
and only skincare system formulated from one's own DNA derived plasma.

(57:52):
He had even managed to get a patent for some
pseudo scientific process to treat skin imperfections. Neighbors were and impressed.
They told reporters that there were constant deliveries of surgical
supplies and a steady stream of women coming and going
late at night. One neighbor summed it up perfectly, Some
real weird stuff happens there. When journalists confronted Tony Hot

(58:15):
for comment, he clammed up. Soon after the state opened
an investigation, and just like that, Tony Hote vanished shutting
down his website, closing his business and packing up for
Florida Wow. Florida business records show that in August twenty seventeen,
Tony Hot resurfaced yet again. He registered not one, but

(58:36):
two new ventures, Tony Hote Cosmetique LLC and Hate Medical LLC.
On the paperwork, the registered agent was listed as Anthony
Hote MD. Apparently, though even Anthony realized that two more
fake companies might not be the best look, because within
a year both were quietly dissolved. But Anthony is nothing

(58:56):
if not persistent. In twenty nineteen, he popped up in
perhaps his most surreal disguise yet as a trustworthy senior
caregiver on the website eldercare dot com. Listed simply as
Anthony h. He claimed qualifications in administering medications, performing assessments,
and providing respite care. Someone who recognized his photo immediately

(59:20):
alerted the Buffalo DA, but there wasn't much they could
do as long as he wasn't claiming to be a doctor.
There was nothing technically illegal about Anthony offering his services
as a caregiver. Terrifying maybe illegal.

Speaker 4 (59:34):
No.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
By twenty twenty, Anthony had formed yet another Florida entity,
Hote Enterprises. That company is still active today, though what
exactly Anthony is doing with it, if anything, remains a mystery.
The last sighting that I found of him was from
his Facebook page in January twenty twenty four. There he
was Anthony Hote glaring into the camera with a full,

(59:56):
obviously fake looking head of hair, trying to smolder. At
sixty six years old, he looked less like a disgraced
surgeon and more like a B movie villain who just
won't stay dead.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Wow, was he smoldering or smising?

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
What is smising?

Speaker 4 (01:00:10):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
I'm not familiar with that word.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
It's a Tara Banks America's Top next top Model Lefens.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
I believe will post the picture of him from Facebook,
but it just it made me laugh because he looks
like he is just looking into the camera, like he
is trying to seduce the camera.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
What was the Facebook post for just a.

Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
Picture of himself?

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
In the years after Sarah's death, Dan Smith rebuilt his life.
He eventually remarried to his wife, Carrie, and together they
raised four children, two from his life with Sarah and
two more that they welcomed into the family. Sarah's mother,
Barb Grafton, became grandma to all of them. She spends
holidays with Dan's family, woven into their lives as family.

(01:00:55):
That part really touched me because you know Sarah's mom.
The fact that Dan still includes ut at her as family,
even with their new children. I just think that was really.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Heartwarming, very classy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Still the past lingers. After learning about Debbie Pignataro's poisoning,
Dan carried a burden of guilt. He said, I thought
Debbie and their children would be better off if they
had their father come home to them. I was wrong,
and in a way, I blame myself that Debbie got poisoned.
I never thought he would hurt his own family. If
you remember Dan, he really didn't lobby for pign for

(01:01:29):
Anthony to have a long prison sentence. He just wanted
his license taking away. No, not at all. Debbie survived,
but the arsenic left scars that she'll carry forever. She
regained her mobility, but not fully. The numbness, the pain,
the loss of fine motor control. These are permanent reminders
of what she endured, and yet Debbie found the strength

(01:01:50):
to move forward. As of twenty twenty, she was still
living in Buffalo, a grandmother herself, finding joy and watching
her grandsons play football. After years years of silence, she
finally shared her story not for sympathy, but to give
other women the courage to leave abusive relationships before it's
too late. Two women, two very different stories, Sarah, whose

(01:02:12):
life was stolen at just twenty six, Debbie, who fought
to survive against impossible odds. Both are reminders of the
devastation left in Anthony Pignataro's wake, and both are reminders
of the strength that it takes to endure and to
choose life beyond abuse. Rest in peace, Sarah and Debbie.

Speaker 4 (01:02:30):
We hope that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
You're still finding peace, joy and healing in the life
that you've rebuilt.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
Heartbreaking.

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
It is simply heartbreaking that Debbie has to wake up
every morning and you know, be reminded instantly when she
tries to get out of bed of what her ex.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Husband put her through.

Speaker 3 (01:02:47):
Yeah, and he is free, and you know who knows
what he's doing. He'll find a way to hurt someone
else again if he hasn't already.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
It just seems like he is just bent on you know, well.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
He's this you know medical, you know expert, and he's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Just a brilliant guy. So he's got to offer his
services to the world in some way or another. I
have a few questions for you. One thing, I wanted
to talk about motive a little bit, because I think
his motive in poisoning Debbie is a little bit confusing.
There was a little bit of life insurance, but there
wasn't a lot. It wasn't a huge amount of life
insurance that would you know, change his life or make

(01:03:25):
him set for life or anything like that, so that
probably wasn't a motive. The other possible motive is that
he wanted to get rid of Debbie so that he
could to make it easier for him to like move
to the Caribbean and start medicine. But even that doesn't
seem very likely. The interesting thing that the DA said
they were speculating that his motive might have been that

(01:03:49):
he wanted Debbie to die in surgery. You remember, he
was pushing the doctors to remove her gallbladder, and the
doctors were like, no way, she's too weak if she
if she undergoes that surgery, she'll probably die. And the
DA speculated that for Anthony that would be vindication if
his own wife died in surgery, to basically allow him

(01:04:11):
to say that, See, anybody's wife can die in surgery.
I'm curious what you think about that. It's kind of
a novel idea, but it's sort of intriguing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:19):
Well, I think it's really interesting that you had the
option there to say cola systaectomy and you said gull
better removal surgery.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Yes, it's just how I am.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
You know, it's my takeaway.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
No, I think Anthony's a narcissist, and my takeaway is
that he just wanted to move on with his life
and that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
She was in the way.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
He thought that she was expendable, and he just wanted
her dead. I don't think it went as deep as
you know, trying to prove that people die in surgery
every day.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Yeah, you're probably right. One thing I would love to
get your opinion on is your Debbie. She stood by
Anthony through a lot. There was a lot that on
infidelity abuse, you know, his criticism of her. Why do
you think she struggled so much to separate and let
go of him, and it took a long time and
a lot for her to finally get to a point

(01:05:12):
where she was ready.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
She loved her husband and she wanted to think the
best of him, and it just took a really long
time for her to realize that he wasn't the man
that she thought he was. Right, they want to believe
the people that we marry are good and have the
best intentions, and it really does take it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Clearly didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
And it's easy for us to see, you know, you
read a book and for you to see, well, clearly
this guy was garbage from the beginning. We talk about
the bad stuff all the time on our podcast, I
don't think we talk about the good stuff, and a
lot of times the good stuff isn't in the books.
I'm sure they had moments of you know, love and
laughter and warmth together, and they enjoyed, you know, to
a certain extent, watching their children grow up together and

(01:05:51):
attend their son's football games. You know, there are probably
lovely moments in their marriage, and she hung on to
those maybe more than she should have.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
Yeah, it's a very good, good point. What do you
make of Anthony's sentence? So he served you know, six
months for Sarah's death, and then he got fifteen years
for poisoning Debbie which he didn't serve all of that.
But what do you think of that sentence? Is it
was justice?

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
Don Obviously there was not justice there. It's heartbreaking that,
you know, Debbie has lifelong injuries from that, and you know,
the poor Sarah lost her life. I mean, it's just
really sad that he still in a lot of these cases.
You know, he hurt people and killed two people that
we know of, and you know he's living his life.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Yeah, it's kind of ironic that he got more time
for Debbie who didn't end up dying, although she did
end up suffering for a long time, versus Sarah who
did end up dying. But I think the fact that
that was, you know, considered more of a medical thing,
it was trickier to prove.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
I don't think he set out to kill Sarah exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
One last question with Sarah's death. I think that it
is really tricky, if you're thinking of it from a
DA's perspective, when something happens, when someone dies in a
medical situation like that, it's not something you normally go
after and arrest somebody for right. Those are handled with
extreme cases lawsuits. Yeah, So do you think the DA
handled his crimes appropriately, just.

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
This general sloppiness of his medical training and the basement
office and not having the life saving equipment that he
should have had. Yeah, I think that they could have
gone after him a little harder. But I know those
things are really hard to prove, and sometimes juries, you know,
those things are kind of nuanced and it's hard for

(01:07:38):
juries to really understand that stuff. You did, actually, I
thought a really good job explaining that stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:07:43):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
Yeah, it is tricky. I think for a DA who
aren't experts in medical procedures and practices, it was probably
difficult for them to feel confident in their case, which
is why they ended up offering a plea deal. But ultimately,
and we talked about it at the end of part one,
you wish that the medical community, the medical licensing board

(01:08:06):
would have found a way to not let him get
this far to begin with it. It's frustrating that there
weren't more checks and balances in place to stop him from.

Speaker 3 (01:08:14):
It's chilling that he was performing these surgeries and he
thought he was some sort of you know, miracle doctor.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
I need to mention my main source in this case
was Anne Rule's book Last Dance, Last chance. So this
is actually a book that was a compilation of multiple stories,
but this was the main one in the book. She
wrote about three hundred pages on this and she interviewed Debbie,
interviewed many people involved in the case, and as always,
Anne Rule did an amazing job.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Ye it she rules, she does.

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
She did.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
This case reminded me so much of Doctor Death. I'm
sure a lot of our listeners have listened to Doctor Death.
I listened to season one and season two chilling, Yes, horrifying,
you listened.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
To I listened to season one with season two different story.

Speaker 3 (01:09:01):
Season two was a doctor Fata who is in the
Detroit area.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
Oh okay, I don't think I listened to that one.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
Yeah, that one is also just as chilling. Yeah, but yeah,
you would think that these people would get caught before
they do too much damage.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
But mm hmm, it's really it's super scary, it really is.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Thanks again to Christy for recommending this case. We really
appreciate it. A few episodes ago, you told the story
of a woman that had gotten engaged to her AI chatbot.
Somebody commented on that episode, Hey, you should look at

(01:09:39):
the story of this woman who fell in love with
a chandelier, and so of course that piqued my curiosity
and I googled that and it took me down a
rabbit hole of people falling in love with inanimate objects,
and apparently it's something that happens. So I've got a
few examples here.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
All right, Like they're in love with the inanimate object.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
Yes, and they would marry it, yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
So the example that our listener commented on about the
woman and the chandelier, this woman, her name is Amanda Liberty,
and she wanted to marry a ninety one year old chandelier.
This woman her name is Amanda Liberty because she previously
had been in love with the statue of Liberty, and
she changed her name to Amanda Liberty. But then she

(01:10:25):
moved on, and then she fell in love with a chandelier.

Speaker 3 (01:10:27):
And she changed her name to Amanda Chandelier.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
I don't know about that, but I would not be surprised.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
I wish I had a chandelier. I love that much.
I hate I hear chandelier's in her house.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
There were some other examples I found. This is a
real thing. A woman married the Berlin wall in nineteen
seventy nine, and she changed her last name to Berlin Wall.
She said, I find long, slim things with horizontal lines
very sexy. The Great Wall of China is attractive, but
he's too thick. My husband is sexy. But sadly the

(01:11:01):
Berlin Wall was demolished, so.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
She lost her She's a widow.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
She's a widow.

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
Another woman married a large stone from her garden, which
I think that may have been more performance art, like
she was a performance artist. There was a man who
married a Barbie doll. In twenty fifteen, a Russian man
married a pizza because he said that love between humans
is too complicated. But he said that pizza would not
reject or betray you, and speaking quite frankly and sincerely,

(01:11:31):
I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:32):
Well, that's kind of a fleeting romance, there, isn't it,
Because pizza doesn't last forever to be like Boloni or
something like that. I know because it has so many twinkies.

Speaker 4 (01:11:42):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
And the last one I have is a man who
was featured on TLC's My Strange Addiction. I was going
to mention that show sounds yeah, it sounds like something
that would belong there. He married fifteen inflatable animals.

Speaker 3 (01:11:57):
Well that one move a little more. Well, I guess
that I'm going to change my name to Tina water flosser.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
Water. Oh, that's your inanimate object.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
I really love my water flosser. And I went to
the dentist this week. Oh yeah, the results are pretty good.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
Yeah, your dentist was quite happy with your relationship with
your waterfall.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
My dentist is really really sweet, and she's always very
complimentary of my teeth.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
Well, because you have perfect teeth.

Speaker 3 (01:12:24):
So I mean I have, I have a pretty I
have pretty good teeth, but part of it is because
she's my dentist. But yeah, I don't know what would
you marry if you couldn't marry me.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
If I had to marry an inanimate object, I think
I would marry my desk, your task. I spend a
lot of time in my spend.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
A lot of time.

Speaker 3 (01:12:42):
I'm surprised you didn't say chair or your car. You
like your car a lot too.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
I do like my car. But I really love my desk.
It's just so like sleek and smooth, and it does
adjust to a standing desk, although you may not know
that because I don't. I haven't used it as a
standing desk. In a long time.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
Well, I'm not here to put fun at you. I
love you unconditionally, but you do tend to have rose
colored glasses on sometimes when you you buy things. I
know you're very optimistic. I know because you when you
bought the standing desk because you wanted a stand mark.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
And then I bought the little treadmill things to go
under the standing, and you have.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
The balance board.

Speaker 4 (01:13:19):
I know.

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):
But you had a hard time with the desk treadmill.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
You said it was it's hard to work while you
use it, unfortunately, because you're kind of like you're bouncing
up and down a little bit, and it's harder than
I thought, unfortunately.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of what else. I really love.
Nothing that I'm in like a long term relationship with
it in But I really love.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
My A wall of water bottle.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
I think the guy who married the pizza I can
relate to that. I know that pizza is fleeting, but
there's always going to be another pizza and then another
one after that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:49):
But then you're cheating on your original pizza, so there's
some infidelity there.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
Yeah, in the end of the day, I'm thankful that
I don't have to marry An inanimated object. I'm very
happy with you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
Thanks, thanks so much, ditto right back at you. I hear.

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
It's really tough out there in the dating world. So
my heart goes out to people who are looking for
someone special and aren't able to, you know, find their person,
because it's just getting.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Harder and harder.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
Yeah, chandelier might not look so bad.

Speaker 4 (01:14:19):
Well.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
I read a story today, I think it was in
People magazine about a woman named Lisa who's forty two
years old, and she put a billboard up Marylisa dot com. Wow,
and she is looking for actually I think she's forty one,
and you can go to mary Lisa dot com and
you can apply to get to.

Speaker 1 (01:14:39):
Know Lisa she has. It's so I think it's kind
of brilliant. Really, she's a really pretty lady.

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
She seems very accomplished, super smart.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
I just feel like she's going to get a thousand
people she's going to I think.

Speaker 3 (01:14:51):
She's already gotten a thousand people. Yeah, but yeah, it's
going to be you know, some work weeding through them.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
I yes, she could be pretty cheesy though at that
point if she's got that many people responding.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Yeah, So I hope that Lisa finds love.

Speaker 4 (01:15:03):
I hope.

Speaker 3 (01:15:04):
So we hope everyone out there who is looking for
love finds love. Maybe we should have like a dating website.
There's this woman that I have followed on and off
for years on Instagram. Her name is Kelly Kelly Stamps.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
She lives in Arkansas.

Speaker 3 (01:15:20):
She's very religious, and she believes, like people should, you know,
people who love Jesus will be more likely to find
love together. And like I'm not kidding. She forty couples.
She has set up forty couples and they have married. Wow,
So I think that's super amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
So you think we should start a Love Mary Killed
dating site for people who love.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
Crime, having the title love Mary Killed. David inside that probably.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
Probably we're gonna have to work on that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:48):
We're gonna have to work on that. What could the
case stand for love Mary?

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
Uh? Kiss?

Speaker 3 (01:15:55):
There you go, Love Mary Kiss. Yeah, let's let's do it.
Maybe we could do that for val on Time's Day,
set up some true crime lovers and Kelly has the
same problem, like she'll have forty thousand women and six guys.
So the six guys, you know, their odds are really good.
And I think we have at least four male listeners.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
Now, yeah, so those for many.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
Not that it has to.

Speaker 3 (01:16:15):
Be heterosexual relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:16:17):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (01:16:18):
You know, we can open it up. Who just love.
We believe in love. Here love Mary kel love is love.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
We thank you all so much for sticking with us.
I know we've had a few long cases lately, but
I think people, I hope people like the detail that
we go into. That's usually the feedback we hear.

Speaker 3 (01:16:34):
I think our listeners know that we like to get
as much detail in there as we can if we
can find it. Sometimes you can't find it. I'm working
on a case right now that I'm struggling to make
long enough. Yeah, it's always really frustrating. It's not that
those stories aren't worth telling, that they're not good, they're
just short.

Speaker 4 (01:16:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
This one, I thought I wasn't going to be able
to find enough because there was a couple of shows
and they were good, but I wasn't able to find anything.
And then I found that Anne Rule wrote this, Oh
this is perfet awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:17:02):
Sometimes those shows are wrong too, like the Oxygen shows.
They'll leave out details, they have facts in there that
they're making up.

Speaker 1 (01:17:10):
Yeah, it's kind of weird.

Speaker 2 (01:17:11):
That's true. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us
on social media and YouTube, or send us an email
at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:17:21):
If you're listening on Spotify, we love to see your
comments there. Ninety nine percent of our interaction with our
listeners is fabulous. Recently have gotten some not so nice
comments or people wanting to engage in war, and I'm
just never going to engage in war. If you have
unkind things to say, or you feel differently than we

(01:17:42):
do at the resolution of a case, that's completely fine,
but we're always going to choose peace.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
And love until next time.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
Don't kill your husband and don't.

Speaker 4 (01:17:51):
Kill your wife.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
To the

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
Topick the cont