Gail and George Fulton - Part 1

In October 1999, 48-year-old librarian Gail Fulton was shot and killed outside the Lake Orion, Michigan library where she worked. What initially appeared to be a cold-blooded, random attack soon revealed itself as something far more personal—and far more calculated.

At the center of the case: a crumbling marriage, a secret affair, and a woman named Donna Trapani who refused to be cast aside. The investigation uncovered a disturbing murder-for-hire plot involving a fake pregnancy, a forged suicide note, and three willing accomplices, all wrapped up in obsession, manipulation, and delusion.

The story spans two years of emotional unraveling, culminating in a fatal encounter that shattered a family. This case raises complex questions about accountability, denial, and the consequences of ignoring red flags.

Today's snacks: Buc-ee's Sea Salted Caramel Beaver Nuggets, Pocky Almond Crush, Buc-ee's Peanut Brittle, Buc-ee's Pecan Brittle (thanks Sam and Julia!)

Happy birthday Emma!

Listen to part 2 today on Patreon

Sources:

• Phelps, M. William. Kiss of the She-devil. 2013, Pinnacle Books. 
• https://www.newspapers.com/image/760067552/
• Snapped, S28 E17, Donna Trapani.
• https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/223376204/dora-garza
• https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/228199152/noe-chapa-garza

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
And if there's one thing we've learned over twenty years
of marriage.

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Literally, Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hey Tina, Hey Rich? How are you today?

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Fine?

Speaker 1 (00:31):
How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm good? Did you bring sassy Tina to the recording?

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Po Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, a little bit, a
little bit, got a little bit of a headache, and
not to complain, but the weather here has been bananas
and it's like sixty degrees, but it feels like there's
dampness in the air.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
It feels like fall.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah, I feel really ugly today, you know, like, well,
that's nice of you to say, but you're lying because
I'm like pale and I feel I don't know, just wow,
my hair's a mess, my socks didn't really match my
outfit today.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
So you are feeling sassy.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
I mean maybe defeated is a better word. So sometimes, yeah,
I might feel a little snarky today, but I am
excited to be here and you have a big day tomorrow.
This is your last day of It's like your last
day of summer vacation.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah, tomorrow, you're going to wake up. I'm going to
have to like get you you're packed by lunch. I'm
going to pack your lunch. I'm going to make you
a special breakfast. I'm going to take your picture. Yeah,
because it's your your first day.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Of starting new job tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
So yeah, your new company, like you'll get a lot
of new listeners for us.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
It's a small company, Like I said before, it's only
maybe sixty people or so, so you know, maybe maybe
we'll get a few.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Well, speaking of new listeners, we've got a lot of
new listeners join us, and we're so grateful. Welcome to
the podcast. A huge thank you to Jesse and Andy
from Love Murder, who gave us a shout out in
one of their recent episodes, and a lot of their
listeners came over and listened to us. So to our
listeners if you haven't listened to Love Murder, it really is.
I'm I'm not exaggerating one of the best podcasts out there.

(02:02):
I've listened to them throughout the years, and when I
hear them, they're so good and so professional, I'm like,
I don't know what we're doing. We might as well
just throw away our microphones because they're that good. So
please go listen to Jesse and Andy at Love Murder.
Have a Memorial Day.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
I can't believe it's already Memorial Day.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
I know I have been wearing white pants. I have
worn white pants a few times and white shorts a
few times. So that's how our rebellious I am you are. Yeah,
today is a special day for us. It is the
birth of the anniversary of the birth of our first child,
of Emma, my little podcast Money. Yeah, we love you
so much. I know you're not listening, but we love

(02:41):
you so much.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
If someone is listening that happens to know Emma, tell
her we wish her a happy birthday.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Well, if you want to leave a little note for
Emma in show notes, I think she would really love that.
She was so happy to read all your nice comments
and feedback from the Mother's Day episode. She really is
a fabulous and we love her so much. Yes, so golden,
they too. She doesn't like gold, so I don't know
what you do with that. Maybe we just get our
bars of gold.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Hmmm, we'll talk about that later before we get to
the case. Would you like a snack?

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Actually, kind of full.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Oh okay, well, good more for me. Then, we have
had so many nice listeners send us snacks in the
mail lately. It's just so it's great. We just love that.
And we have some more listener snacks today. So our
friend Sam sent us a couple of things, one from BUCkies,
which we talk about a lot, even though we've never
been there.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
It's a dream.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
But she sent us some sea salted caramel beaver nuggets,
and she sent us some pockeys, almond crush flavor pockeys,
and so that's pretty cool. And then my dear sister
Julia also sent us a couple of things from BUCkies.
She and her husband were on a little road trip
and they went to a BUCkies and she sent us
some peanut brittle and some pecan.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Briddle full disclosure. She also sent a package of the
beaver nuggets.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Oh, and I ate.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
When I opened both the packages that they both sent
the same negatus. I'm like, well, we don't need to
eat too mary disease. So yeah, those were delficious. Sam
is a really good friend of the pod. Sam and
her husband Tim lived in Italy. They lived in Europe.
I think I'm not sure for Holland, but it was
for several years, but recently they have moved back to
the United States and they settled in Texas, and so

(04:19):
that's why she was at BUCkies and sent us the
Bucky snacks. But it was probably maybe a year ago,
and Sam sent us up a bunch of snacks from
Italy and that was super fun. And now she's in
the US, so she sent us us so that was
really kind.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
That's fine because my sister, my sister was in Texas
also when she went to BUCkies. Wouldn't that be weird?

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Bright she Oh, sorry, no, I love.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
To hear you saying that. I just thought it would
be really weird if she and Sam were at the
same BUCkies at the same time.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
I don't really know.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
They never would have known. No, we should also give
a shout out to my sister Julia, who sent us
the other snacks from BUCkies. She makes jewelry and she
makes all sorts of jewelry and it's really unique interesting. Yeah,
so you should check her work out.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, please check her out on Instagram. Her shop is
called Grandma J Baked Clay g r A m M
A Underscore J Underscore Baked Underscore Clay, give her a
follow and check out her shop.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
All right, let's try these snacks. Let's how did you
enjoy that assortment of lovely snacks, good stuff stuff. What
was your favorite?

Speaker 1 (05:24):
Well, my favorite probably would have been the Texas Heat
dip and cheeseball mixed that Sam sent that you didn't
make you loved it in the box.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Sorry Sam, but.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
They were all really good. And Sam also sent us
a Texas soap and a cute little Texas sticker that
I just put on my MacBooks. That's so nice, so sweet.
What was your favorite snack?

Speaker 2 (05:44):
I love the peanut riddle.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
You're a big peanut turtle guy.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Big peanutpridtle fan. But I also love the beaver nuggets too.
I mean we've had those before, but they are so good.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
I'm a little worried about the working conditions in the
beaver factory. How are they compensated? Like Bucky makes it
a lot of They make a lot of stuff. Yeah,
there's probably a whole, you know, litter of BUCkies working
for peanuts.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
I'm sure that BUCkies compensates their be for employees very well.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Do you think it's sanitary? Do they wash their pause
for twenty seconds before they start making the peanut riddle.
I am co saying they're like licking their paws as between.
All right, let's get to the case.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
All right. Well, thank you Sam and Julia for the snacks.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
We love you both very much.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
It was just after nine pm on a chilly Monday
night in October nineteen ninety nine. The Lake Orion, Michigan
Public Library was closing up for the day. Barbed, the
library supervisor, stayed behind with one other staff member to
run the computer backups, a routine task that would only
take ten or fifteen minutes. Meanwhile, forty eight year old
Gail Fulton and two other library aids stepped out through

(06:49):
the employee entrance and into the chilly night air. They
said their goodbyes and headed to their cars. Gail climbed
into her maroon Plymouth Grand Voyager and began to pull
out of her parking space, but something didn't feel right.
The van had barely moved when Gail stopped. She pulled
back into the spot, stepped out, and walked around to
the passenger side. That's when she saw it. One of

(07:10):
her tires was completely flat. By now, the others had
already driven off, leaving Gail alone in the lot. She
turned to head back toward the library. That's when a
car pulled up. Its headlights blazed into her eyes, blinding her.
Then the back door opened, a man in black stepped out,
his face hidden behind a ski mask. He raised the
gun and pointed it at Gaile. She didn't have time

(07:32):
to scream, let's back up and get to know Gail Fulton.
She was born Martha Glee Garza in Corpus Christi, Texas,
the youngest of two children. Her father, Noe Garza, had
just finished law school. He built a successful legal career
and was eventually appointed a federal judge, as was his brother, Margherito.
Gaile's mother, Dora, worked at Noae's firm, first as a

(07:54):
legal assistant, then as a paralegal, but her contributions extended
beyond the office. Dora was a devoted member of Saint
Teresa Catholic Church and a driving force in the city's
Hispanic community. She founded the Museum of Hispanic Culture and
later helped secure its permanent home. The Garzas were well
known in Corpus Christi. Gail was raised in a traditional

(08:15):
Hispanic American Catholic household, tight knit, church going, and achievement oriented.
She attended an all girls Catholic high school, where friends
remembered her as both proper and playful, a good girl
with a fun streak. In high school, she was active
in her parish's Catholic youth organization, and that's where she
met George Fulton. George's background couldn't have been more different.

(08:37):
While Gail grew up in a prominent family with just
one sibling, George was one of nine. His father died young,
leaving his mother to raise the kids on her own.
Money was tight, but George thrived. In high school, he
ran cross country, was first chair clarinet in the band,
and served as senior class president. He was charming and
well liked and not short on female admirers. When George

(08:59):
and Gaylee meant, they clicked immediately and started dating. But
George had plans. He was determined to become a career
military officer, and he was accepted into West Point. Gail
enrolled at Baylor University, where she studied speech therapy. They
kept in touch through occasional letters, but slowly drifted apart,
each focused on their own path. Still, they believed that

(09:20):
if it was meant to be they would find each
other again, and they did. After graduation, both returned to
Corpus Christi. They reconnected and picked up right where they
had left off. In nineteen seventy five, they got married
and started a family. Melissa was born in nineteen seventy six,
Emily in nineteen eighty, and their son, George Andrew arrived

(09:40):
in nineteen eighty one. A year after the wedding, Gail
left her job to stay home with the kids. Money
was tight in those early years, and Gail often made
personal sacrifices to keep the household running. She took pride
in being a devoted traditional wife, supporting George in whatever
he chose, even if it came at her own expense.
For his part, was comfortable calling the shots when it

(10:02):
came to big life decisions, even those that affected the
entire family. He rarely asked for Gayl's input. One of
the biggest decisions George made without much input from Gail
was moving the family to Michigan in nineteen ninety six.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
I think that's when I moved to Michigan or around
thereineteen ninety six orwety seven.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Weird in Texas George had struggled to find work he
felt was worthy of his talents. He started an electronic
medical claims business, but it turned out to be a
scam and cost him thousands. Later, he tried selling insurance
and offering financial planning services. That didn't bring in much
income either. Still, he bought himself a one hundred dollars
tie to look the part of a successful businessman, while

(10:42):
Gayle quietly tightened the family's budget to keep things afloat.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
So that's about two hundred dollars for a tie today.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
It's a nice tie.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
What kind of tie was it.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
I don't know. I'm guessing it was a fancy silk
designer tie. I think I think George, like when he
was selling insurance, he wanted to look the part of
like a successful businessman, and he didn't really care that
much that it would make things harder in the household
because they really didn't have a lot of money at
that point in time. And I think that's sort of
the rhythm of Gail and George's marriage. George did what

(11:13):
he wanted, he sort of chased his dreams, and then
Gail dealt with things and tried to keep things afloat
at home.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Do you think in most marriages there's a spender and
a saver.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
No, cup, I don't know. I'm sure every marriage is different.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Well, I think everyone knows what you were implying. Well,
some of us might need more than one pair of
shoes every eight years.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
I can't imagine why. Then George got an offer from
an automotive supplier in Michigan. It was a good opportunity,
steady pay, decent benefits. George didn't hesitate. Gail, on the
other hand, had reservations. Her father had passed away years earlier,
and she was very close to her mother. The family
was deeply rooted in Corpus Christy, with a strong church
community and a wide circle of friends. Gail knew her

(11:58):
mother would need more help as she got old, and
she wanted to be there, but she kept these concerns
to herself. George had made up his mind, and Gail
did what she always did, supported his decision, even when
it cost her something. There were a few bright spots.
The job offered financial stability, and they could finally help
the kids with college expenses. They bought a modest, brand

(12:18):
new house in a nice neighborhood and since it was
still under construction, Gail had the chance to choose some
of the finishes. It gave her a small sense of control,
something she didn't often have. The house was in Lake Orion, Michigan,
a postcard perfect town of about three thousand, thirty five
miles north of Detroit. I know her with its tree
lined streets and shimmering lakes. The town's motto was where

(12:41):
living is a vacation. I know Lake Orion very well too.
I actually grew up about ten minutes away from Lake Orion,
so very close to home. My grandma actually lived in
Lake Orion.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, I think I met your grandma. You did a
couple of once or twice. Yeah, I think she was
in her twilight years by the time that met her.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, I think she way probably soon after we got together, unfortunately,
but she lived in Lake Orion and my family went
there every Sunday for years, so it's a beautiful place.
By the time they moved, their oldest daughter, Melissa, was
in college and stayed behind George. Gail. Emily, who was
sixteen at the time, and Andrew, who was fourteen lived
in a small apartment while they waited for their house

(13:20):
to be finished. Once they moved in, everyone settled into
their new routines. Everyone except Gail. George was frequently away
on business, often gone for days or even weeks. The
kids stayed busy with school and activities, but Gail she
felt the absence of everything that she had left behind.
She didn't get to know her neighbors and didn't seem
eager to try. Her world had gotten smaller. She eventually

(13:42):
took a part time job at the Orion Township Public Library,
just ten minutes from home. It was a good fit.
She loved books, but it didn't fill the void. She
missed her family in Texas. She missed her mother, and
gradually she began to lose weight. Her hair started falling out.
The sadness was hard to ignore, but easy for others
to overlook. George wasn't happy either. His own job wasn't

(14:04):
living up to expectations. He still dreamed of running his
own company, of being in charge of skipping the ladder
and going straight to the top. He felt destined for
something bigger, and increasingly restless in the life that he had.
That restlessness crept into other parts of his life. He
wasn't just looking for a new job. He was looking
for a spark, something exciting.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
Sounds like a good time to start a gratifying hobby
like woodworking.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
That would have been a great idea, But instead, I
think George was looking for someone new, and he found
her on a business trip to Florida. Her name was
Donna Trapani.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
By Donna Kay Williams. Grew up in Louisiana, spending most
of her childhood in New Orleans. According to Donna, when
she was just six weeks old, her father, during a
fit of rage, threw her against a wall. Her mother
kicked him out, and he never came back. Whether that
story is true or not as hard to say. Donna
wasn't always a rel liable narrator of her own life,

(15:01):
but what is certain is that she grew up without
a father.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
I hope this story is not true, because I can't
imagine a more horrible thing a six week old baby
throwing her against a wall.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
After high school, she earned an associate degree in data processing,
then went on to nursing school, graduating as a registered
nurse in nineteen eighty one. She worked at a local
hospital for a while, then took a job in home
health care somewhere Along the way, she met Chuck Trapani.
They married in nineteen eighty nine. Donna was sharp and ambitious.

(15:31):
Her time in home health care sparked an idea, why
work for someone else when she could run her own company.
The home health care market was booming, so in nineteen
ninety six, she and Chuck packed up and moved to
Fort Walton Beach in the Florida Panhandle and launched their
own business, Home health Care Systems, or HHCs. They opened

(15:52):
their doors in February of that year. It took several
more months to secure all the necessary licenses, but soon
they were up and running. Donna and Chuck built a
team of registered nurses LPNs and home health care aids
to care for the elderly patients in their homes. The
business did well, at least at first, but Donna had
some serious shortcomings as a manager. She was a micromanager

(16:15):
with a volatile temper, and employees never knew which version
of Donna they'd get on a given day. Sometimes she
was cheerful and upbeat. Other times she was caustic, unpredictable,
and cruel, publicly belittling staff in front of their peers.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Do you ever have a boss like that.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
I mean, I think it's describing me. No, have you
had a boss like that?

Speaker 2 (16:37):
I had one that comes to mind. I think you
know who I mean.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
I'm not sure. Oh, I do know. She would call
employees late at night on their days off, with non
urgent questions. She demanded complete loyalty. Disobedience, no matter how small,
was not tolerated. Her behavior was erratic and emotionally exhausting.
Colleagues described her as scattered and impulsive, the mood swings
that could change in an instant. Many suspected she suffered

(17:04):
from bipolar disorder, though she was never formally diagnosed. At
the center of her emotional storm was her husband, Chuck.
He adored her and seemed willing to do anything for her,
but Donna appeared to openly despise him. She humiliated him
regularly off and in front of her staff, as if
to remind everyone who was in control. I think that's

(17:25):
one of the worst things you can do to someone. Yeah, absolutely,
you should always reprimand someone in private. It wasn't just
her temperament that repelled people, It was also her disregard
for basic hygiene. She was known to bring paperwork into
the bathroom with her and then handed directly to staff afterward.
One employee began spring anything she touched with lysol before

(17:48):
handling it, and yet her employees stayed. Why because she
paid well, far better than any other agency in the area.
For many, the money outweighed the misery. At least for
a while. Donna had a particular disdain for anyone she
saw as smarter or more experienced than she was. At
one point, a major corporation expressed interest in buying HHCs,

(18:11):
an acquisition that could have set her up financially for life.
But when the accountants and consultants arrived to conduct their
due diligence, Donna torched the opportunity. She was abrasive and aggressive,
swearing at them so freely it felt theatrical, like she
was trying to blow it up. And that's exactly what happened.
The deal collapsed. Whatever Donna wanted, she wanted it on

(18:33):
her terms, and if things didn't go her way, there
was always someone else to blame. We'll be back after
a break. In October nineteen ninety seven, George Fulton was
on a business trip in Florida. Not far from his

(18:54):
hotel was a run down local dive bar called the
Seagull Bar. One evening, looking for a dream and maybe
at distraction, he wandered in. That's where he saw her,
forty four year old Donna Trapani, sitting alone at the bar. George,
never short on confidence, walked right up and asked her
to dance. She turned him down flatly, saying she didn't

(19:14):
like the song that was playing. Undeterred, he asked again
when the next song came on, then again, three times,
three rejections. Finally he leaned in and said, quote, when
you hear a song you like, you come and get me.
A few minutes later, Caribbean Queen by Billy Ocean came on,
and who can resist that sign? Of course, Donna got up,

(19:35):
found George and pulled him onto the dance floor. They danced,
then they talked, and then they went their separate ways.
Two weeks later, on Halloween night, they ran into each
other again, same bar, same spark. This time they stayed longer.
They drank, they danced, they laughed. George fell a connection.
Donna wasn't just attractive, she was accomplished. She ran her

(19:57):
own company. She had power and fire, the kind of
drive George admired and craved to him. Donna was everything
Gail wasn't. Gail was quiet, self sacrificing, supportive to a fault. Donna,
on the other hand, was bold, direct, unapologetically in control.

(20:17):
That night, they made out in Donna's car before heading
back to George's hotel. It's funny that you use the
word made out.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
I know, it kind of sounds like teenagers, doesn't it.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
Just before they got to the room, George paused and
told her that one thing he hadn't yet mentioned he
was married. Did he not have a ring? You probably
don't know that, probably don't know that. He said the
marriage was over and all but name, and that he'd
been unhappy for years. Donna didn't walk away. The next day,
they met for lunch. From that point on, the relationship

(20:46):
took off, with George stepping deeper into a double life
and Donna welcoming him into hers.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
George spent most of November in Florida for work and
nearly every evening with Donna. When he returned to Michigan
just beare for Thanksgiving, Gail and the kids didn't notice
anything out of the ordinary. George was always a bit
reserved and a little irritable. Nothing seemed different. While apart,
George and Donna kept in close contact by phone facts
and email sign up. There are a lot of their

(21:16):
correspondence was over a fax machine, which I find really funny.
Donna was the more expressive of the two, sending long,
often steamy notes filled with fantasies and affection. She flattered
George's ego, praising his prowess in bed and telling him
how much she missed him. George was more guarded, but
on December nineteenth he let his guard slip and he

(21:36):
told Donna that he loved her. Around that time, their
conversations shifted from passion to business. Donna asked George if
he would consider working for her full time. She needed
someone with financial expertise, and George fit the bill. At first,
they went back and forth about logistics and titles, but
in January nineteen ninety eight, George agreed to start his

(21:56):
own company and act as a private contractor for HHS. Yes.
It gave him the illusion of independence, his long desired
dream of running a business, when in reality he was
working full time for Donna. The plan was for George
to travel to Florida twice a month and work remotely
the rest of the time. That same month, Donna made
a clean break. She kicked Chuck out and filed for divorce.

(22:19):
Chuck moved back to Louisiana. Donna was all in on George. George, however,
wasn't quite as decisive. He told Donna he loved her,
He made promises, but when it came to ending things
with Gail, he stalled. To complicate matters, Donna was now
his employer. George set up a business line at home
and converted part of the basement into an office. He

(22:40):
and Donna spoke frequently, some calls about business, many more personal.
When she couldn't reach him on his direct line, she'd
call the house. Occasionally Gail or one of the kids
would answer. Donna didn't try to hide her presence as
George's boss. Her calls weren't unusual, but no one in
the Fulton household liked her. When she with the kids,

(23:01):
especially Emily, she would act all friendly, asking questions about
school and home life. It was almost like Donna was
acting like she wanted to be friends with Emily. Emily
was polite, but she was wary. Over time, she began
to suspect the truth her father was having an affair.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
So Emily was more perceptive than Gail.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
I think Emily was very perceptive. It could also be
that Gail was in denial a little bit. I think
she probably didn't want to believe that. Well.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Earlier, you said that Gail was going through a hard time, right.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
I think with the move, she was feeling a little
depressed and she.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Isolated her own fog and might never realized what was
going on.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
That could be as well, and I think over time
I think it became more apparent, but it was never
discussed openly in the household. At HHCs, George was well liked.
He was calm, competent, and approachable, everything that Donna wasn't.
Employees found him steady and professional. They knew about his
relationship with Donna, and they knew that he was married,
but they assumed he and his wife were separated. Meanwhile,

(24:00):
Donna's feelings for George deepened quickly and intensely. She talked
about him constantly, gushing to her staff about how perfect
he was. When George wasn't in town, it was as
if she couldn't think of anything else. Through the winter
and into early spring of nineteen ninety eight, the affair intensified.
George continued his bi monthly trips to Florida and went apart.

(24:21):
The two exchanged long letters, emails, and faxes.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Sending your love letter by facts is probably not the best.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
Thing to do.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Why not? I can't imagine.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Okay, so I'm old enough. I worked in an office
where we had a fax machine and in case anyone
has forgotten or doesn't know the facts, just they all
came in and they sat on the fax machine all day.
And so you know, Sally in accounting would come over
and be like, oh, did you get my facts? And
then she would have to shift through all the papers,
and you know, unless you knew the facts was coming, yeah,

(24:52):
you know, it would be a little bit dangerous.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Well, George had a fact in his home office, and
I think Donna was the one who sent the longer,
more rambling kind of letters, so I think he probably
got those. But yeah, you're right.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Still, it's leaving a paper trail. Yeah, that's always dangerous.
You know, where an email is easier to delete or hide.
You know, once you have that paper, it's like, unless
you're going to burn it, it's there.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, for sure. Their relationship went on this way for
a while, but Donna wanted more. She had left her
husband and changed her life. She expected George to do
the same. But for George, it wasn't that simple. He
had two kids still in high school. He felt pressure
to maintain the appearance of a good husband and father,
especially in the eyes of his large, conservative Catholic family.

(25:35):
Divorce wasn't just a personal decision. It would be a
public failure.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
Oh gosh, not the Catholic man not wanting a divorce.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah. He told Donna that he loved her, but he
also made it clear he could never bring another woman
home to meet his mother. Donna claimed to understand, but
her patience was wearing thin. Whenever George mentioned Gail, it
sent her into a quiet rage. In Donna's mind, Gail
wasn't just his wife, she was the one thing standing
in the way of Donna's future. By April, Donna delivered

(26:05):
an ultimatum she needed a timeline. George stalled. He wrote
her a long emotional letter, assuring her of his love
and explaining that he was wrestling with complicated feelings. He
told her he just needed a little more time to
as he put it set the end in motion. By
May of nineteen ninety eight, George said he was ready.
He promised Donna not only his love, but his full

(26:28):
professional commitment as well. He would take on the role
of chief financial officer at HHCs, and he would relocate
to Florida to be with her.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Can you give us an idea of how big hh
CS was.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
I'm really not sure how big. I know that Donna
employed a number of nurses and LPNs that would go
out to houses. I'm not sure how many people, but
I think it was. You know, it might have been
small in terms of the number of people, but it
was probably pretty decent sized in terms of finances because
it was a Medicare medicaid shop and they did a
lot of work in like billing Medicare Medicaid for the

(27:03):
services they offered, so there must have been a fair
amount of money pouring in. At one point, at least
in May nineteen ninety eight, Donna came to Michigan to
help George pack together. They loaded his belongings into a
U haul. By this point, things at the house in
Lake Orion had become tense and painful. George still hadn't
admitted to the affair, but the truth was obvious, at

(27:23):
least to Emily and Andrew. Gail perhaps was still clinging
to denial, but Emily fought with her father more often,
and Andrew withdrew into himself. Gail grew increasingly despondent as
George prepared to leave. Gail and Emily broke down in tears,
begging him not to go, but George was unmoved. He
told them it wasn't permanent, just a temporary move to

(27:44):
get his new business started. Some time apart, he said,
might even help his relationship with Gail. He insisted it
wasn't the end. George was trying to have it both ways.
This is a constant pattern with George. Like he tells
Donna one thing that he loves her and he wants
to be with her. Then he tells Gail that, oh,
I have to go to Florida. I have to live
there to get my business started. But it's not the end.

(28:06):
Don't worry. It just seems like he was either completely
indecisive or just wanted to have it both ways.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
He was maing them, yeh yes, pretty much.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
In Florida, he moved in with Donna, but he didn't
tell his family that. Instead, he claimed that the apartment
he was renting didn't have a phone. If they needed
to reach him, they'd have to call the HHCs office
during business hours. He continued returning to Michigan regularly, but
those visits became less frequent as the summer wore on. Meanwhile,
he and Donna were traveling together to business conferences, weekend getaways,

(28:40):
mini vacations that felt more like honeymoons. But the more
time George spent with Donna, the more cracks he began
to see. He noticed how she treated people, weight staff, cashiers,
hotel employees. Anyone in a job that she considered beneath
her was subject to condescension and scorn. There was a
coldness in her, a sense of entitlement that George hadn't

(29:00):
seen it first, and once he saw it, he couldn't
unsee it.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
If you're ever at dinner with a friend and you
see them treat the white staff poorly, it just really
tells you everything you need to know about that person.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, it really such a low tolerance for that, oh,
totally kind of behavior. As summer turned to fall, George
began to lean back toward the life that he had
left behind. He returned to Michigan in September to celebrate
Gayle's birthday, a visit that enraged Donna. While he was gone,
she filled her journal with bitter invectives against Gail, painting
her as manipulative and selfish. Still, on Halloween, George was

(29:35):
back in Florida, celebrating his one year anniversary with Donna
at a resort. Then came Thanksgiving, and George was back
in Lake Orion, carving the turkey with his wife and children.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Oh boy, George.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
The tug of war continued. He returned to Florida in
early December, then flew back to Michigan for the holidays.
Donna was livid. She called during Christmas and claimed that
there was an emergency at the company, something only George
could fix. Caught a flight back the next day, only
to discover there was no emergency, just Donna needing control.

(30:07):
In private, George confessed that he was torn. He told
Donna he loved her and wanted a future with her,
but he couldn't bring himself to fully walk away. He
worried about his kids hating him. He feared that divorcing
Gail might push her over the edge. Her depression had worsened,
she had stopped eating, cried constantly, and had made vague,
frightening references to suicide. But Gail kept most of her

(30:30):
pain to herself, burying it deep where it only festered.
Donna saw all of this as emotional manipulation. In her journal,
she accused Gail of blackmail, writing that it was quote
the worst kind of crime, even worse than murder. She
blamed Gail entirely for standing in the way of her
happiness with George.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
It's easy for us as we tell these stories because
we have perspective. But Donna was never going to be
happy with George. He was too wishy washy for her,
don't you think?

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, I do think that. I think Donna wasn't going
to be happy with anything Sue.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
It was more likely that she wanted to win than
be with him.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yes, I think it's a good observation for reasons that
are baffling and I will never understand. Donna decided to
write a letter to George's seventeen year old son Andrew.
In it, she painted herself and George as victims. She
wrote that no one in the family truly understood the
suffering that George had endured over the years after the
children were born. She claimed Gail had stopped being a

(31:30):
wife and was only a mother. Donna insisted that she
and George shared a deep, passionate love. She encouraged Andrew
to support his father and talk to his mother. She
said that Gail needed professional help and should stop blackmailing
George into staying. It's unclear what Andrew did with this letter,
but shortly after Gail showed up at the library in tears,

(31:50):
the damn had finally broken. She confided in a coworker
that she had just found out the truth. George was
having an affair with his boss in Florida, and now
it like divorce was inevitable. I think she must have
suspected it for a long time, but then this letter
that Andrew got. I'm sure he showed it to her
and that.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Was verified her worst fears. Yeah, why would she write
a letter to a seventeen year old.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Is one of the many baffling things that Donna Trapani did.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
I mean, poor Andrew probably had no idea what to
do with that information. No, I know, it's a horrible
position to put him in.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
Through the winter of nineteen ninety nine, George began showing
signs that he might want to work things out with Gail.
He was spending more time at home, and there were moments,
small ones, but noticeable, when it seemed like he was
trying to repair what had been broken. But at the
same time, he was still talking to Donna, still telling
her there was hope that maybe somehow things between them

(32:45):
could still work out. He was playing both sides, and
Donna could feel it. Sensing George slipping away, she ramped
up her efforts to hold on. She began calling George's
house more frequently, sometimes just to talk, other times to
harass when the kids bore the brunt of it. The
calls were persistent, unwelcome, and unsettling. Around this time, Gale

(33:06):
confided in her friend. She said George was trying to
end things with Donna, but that Donna wasn't letting go.
She described Donna as obsessed, and in many ways she was.
Even though the romantic relationship was crumbling, George and Donna
still had a business tie, which kept the door cracked
open and the tension alive. Meanwhile, Donna's professional life was

(33:28):
falling apart. Her mismanagement of h h c S had
finally caught up to her. The business, once full of promise,
was bleeding money. By early nineteen ninety nine, it was
clear the company was going under. It was no longer
a question of if only. When on March twenty third,
George submitted his resignation. His official last day would be

(33:49):
April sixteenth, but he agreed to continue helping remotely from
Michigan for a limited time. Even then, he tried to
cushion the blow. He told Donna the relationship wasn't over,
not completely, but his actions said otherwise, and Donna could
feel the shift. She was losing him personally, professionally completely,

(34:09):
and she was starting to get desperate. So Gail was
willing to welcome George back with open arms.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
She was we'll see over and over again in the story.
Gail was willing to forgive and forget whatever George did,
right or wrong. She just wanted her marriage to work out.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
It sounds like they really loved their family, and they
had good kids, and they enjoyed their time together.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
On the surface, Donna appeared to take George's return to
Michigan and his renewed focus on his family. In stride,
she acted calm, mature, even supportive, but beneath the surface,
she was seething and plotting. In April, she sent Georgia
a letter that changed everything. She claimed she was pregnant,
not only that, she was also dying of cancer.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Oh, a double whammy, like Donna pick one.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
And just to prove how serious it was, a letter
supposedly signed by her doctor. It looked official. It was
meant to Donna is forty five, correct, and a forty
five year old woman can get pregnant, for sure, but
without medical intervention, it's unlikely you have a one to
five percent chance of having a natural pregnancy at that age.

(35:19):
It's just statistically unlikely.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Right. Well, that's a good point. And the other thing
I was thinking about with this too, is she supposedly
is dying of cancer as well. I don't know what
kind of cancer she supposedly had, but I would think
carrying a baby when you have cancer there's probably a
lot of risks involved with that as well. Right.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
A lot of women do choose to do that, though.
I just read a story the other day of a
woman that had sacrificed her own life. Yeah, for her baby.
Donna knew exactly which emotional buttons to press. For all
of George's flaws, his deceit, his infidelity, his arrogance, he
still considered himself a moral man, and if Donna was
carrying his child, if she was truly dying, he couldn't

(35:58):
just walk away. He needed time to think. A business
trip to New Mexico, unrelated to Donna's company, seemed like
the perfect opportunity to clear his mind. So he put
in his notice at Donna's company. But did he secure
another job yet?

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Well, I think he had his own company. I don't
know exactly what he was doing, but he may have
been doing consulting.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
Oh, so he still had that company, I think so.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
While George was in New Mexico, Donna had other plans
for him. She showed up at his hotel, uninvited, unannounced.
George didn't send her away. He later said he wanted to,
but that he was afraid she'd cause a scene, and besides,
he admitted quote, I was weak for her. Oh. They
spent the trip together. They slept together, and in Donna's mind,

(36:40):
that meant the relationship was back on. For George, it
wasn't so simple. He was tangled in guilt, confusion, and
a twisted sense of responsibility. In June, he wrote Donna
a letter equal parts apology and confession. He admitted he
had sent mixed signals, but he said he also still
loved her. He said he was touched by the idea
of her care ring his child a product of our love,

(37:02):
as he put it, He promised to be there for her,
to spend her final days by her side. He closed
the letter with the words, I will love you forever.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
My Donna.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
Oh isn't that beautiful?

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Despite Donna's illness, was she planning to carry the baby
to term?

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yes? I mean that was her plan, you know, for George,
was that she would carry this baby and then she
was going to die soon after the baby was born,
and George would be there to take care of the baby.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
Okay, we'll be back. After a break.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Heading into the summer of nineteen ninety nine, Emily had
just graduated high school and was preparing for college. But
instead of enjoying her final teenage summer, she found herself
helping care for her mother because Gail was falling apart again.
She had seen this before the crying, the weight loss,
the migraines, the talk of suicide. Gail was convinced that

(37:58):
George was slipping away from her once more, and the
emotional toll was crushing. Andrew and Emily spent their summer
trying to lift her spirits movies, dinners, shopping trips, anything
to distract her. Gail appreciated the effort, but it only
made her feel worse. You should be out with your friends,
she told them, not your sad old mother. And then

(38:18):
came what I like to refer to as the Fourth
of July debacle. Buckle up, because this part of the
story is crazy, okay. With Donna allegedly pregnant and supposedly
dying of cancer, George hatched an unthinkable plan. He decided
the best course of action was for Donna and Gail
to meet face to face.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
That sounds like a fabulous idea.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
I know what could go wrong.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
As long as you have like a camera crew there
to record it.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
They needed to talk things through. George thought he was
somehow convinced that if the two women sat down together,
they could work out a way for Donna to carry
the baby to term. And then, after Donna died, George
and Gail would raise the child together. Donna flew to
Mind and checked into a room at the Concord Inn
in Rochester Hills.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Oh my god, I know exactly where that is.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
I too too. Gail didn't want to go, but George insisted.
While waiting for them to arrive, Donna prepared writing out
notes on hotel stationery to organize her pitch. Her plan
was to convince Gail to let George come back to
Florida to stay with her until she gave birth and
then died. Then he could return to Michigan with the
baby and resume life with his wife. Simple.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
Up to this point, has George seen an ultrasound? Has
he felt the baby move? Is she you know, showing
a little pregnancy belly?

Speaker 2 (39:35):
I think you don't answered all those things, don't you? No, No,
and no, And I don't think he even really questioned
it that much up until this point, which is just
I just don't understand how someone could be that clueless, Like,
just knowing what you the little bit that you know
about Donna Trapani so far, you would be on high
alert that she was maybe lying about these things. But

(39:58):
George was just completely okay. Donna's notes included a few
key talking points. She blamed Gail for holding George back,
for turning the kids against him, for nagging him about everything,
and in Donna's twisted fantasy, she and Gail would become friends.
Donna would even help Gail get treatment for her depression.

(40:18):
She knew people, after all, George. When George and Gail
arrived and knocked on the motel room door, Donna asked
to speak to George alone. Gail, already on the verge
of tears, refused no, She said, you will not be
alone with my husband George. Ever, the optimist suggested the
three of them go out for lunch just around the
corner at the Olive Garden.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
And what can't be solved at the Olive Garden over
endless soup, salad and breadsticks.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Absolutely, it is hard for me to imagine a more
awkward meal. After lunch, they returned to the motel. This time,
Donna asked if she could speak to Gail woman to woman.
George waited in the motel lobby. We don't know exactly
what was said inside the room. All we have is
Donna's account, and she's not exactly a reliable narrator. According

(41:06):
to her, she rubbed her belly and told Gail, quote,
this is your husband's love child. I love George, Gail,
Why won't you just let this man go? Donna claimed
that Gail snapped back, I hope you lose your baby,
which seems unlikely. Gail was a devout Catholic and by
all accounts, a very kind hearted woman. A comment like
that would have been very out of character, Donna said.

(41:29):
She then shouted, quote, you've had George for twenty five years, bitch,
Now it's my turn. You got that. After I'm dead,
you can have him back. What we do know is this.
About ten minutes later, Gail burst out of the room
in tears, with Donna chasing after her and grabbing at
her blouse. Gail found George in the lobby and told
him she wanted to go home, but Donna wasn't finished.

(41:50):
She begged George to stay and talk. He asked Gail
to wait just five minutes, he promised. Five minutes turned
into an hour. Eventually, Gail left the motor but she
didn't have a car. She found a payphone and called Emily, sobbing,
Emily could barely understand her Gail told her that George
had abandoned her at the motel, was going to leave

(42:10):
the family, and that Donna was pregnant. Gaile believed that
George had brought her to the motel just to humiliate her.
She said she was going to walk home ten miles away,
and she did start walking, but a short while later,
two cars pulled up behind Gail on the road. One
was George, the other was Donna in her rental car.
George convinced Gail to get in with him, but insisted

(42:32):
they followed Donna back to the motel to make sure
that she got there okay. Halfway there, Donna's car suddenly
drifted off the road and came to a stop. George
jumped out to check on her. Donna was slumped over
in the driver's seat, seemingly disoriented. She told him she
must have passed out. They got her back to the motel,
and then George drove Gail home to Lake Orion, but

(42:53):
he didn't stay. He packed an overnight bag and told
Gail he was going back to stay with Donna.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Hacked George.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
I know, I just don't. I just don't get it.
And the thing that is interesting to me and this
is that Donna like she did really always know what
button to push to get George to do what she wanted.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
It does something she really did know that he was.
He was easy to manipulate.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yes, for sure. Before George got the chance to leave
and go back to the motel, Emily arrived home with
a friend. She found her mother sobbing and her father
sitting silently on the couch. Gail told her, quote, your
father is leaving to take care of Donna because she
has no one else. Emily looked at them, stunned. What
are you talking about. She's pregnant, Emily, with your father's child,

(43:41):
and she's dying. She'll be dead in a few months.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Don't you think Emily was like, mom, this was on
Days of our Lives. It was a storyline.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Oh absolutely, I think Emily was all over. She knew
exactly what Donna was all about, and she.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Knew it does sound like Emily knew what was up.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yes, George, trying to defend himself, said quote, look, I
cannot have Donna commit suicide and have that on my hands.
I won't let that happen. But at the same time,
like Gail had talked of suicide as well, but George
didn't really seem to care that much about Gail making
those kind of threats. Emily wasn't having it. She left
to drive her friend home, but really she went to

(44:18):
confront Donna herself. She had another reason too, Emily she
was very sensitive and she believed that she could read
people's auras, and if she saw Donna in person, she
thought she would be able to tell whether or not
she was actually pregnant.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Or they could have said, hey, Donna, take this pregnancy test.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
I mean, Donna faxed a letter from her doctor, so
isn't that enough for you. Emily and her friend drove
to the concord in. Her friend waited outside. If Emily screamed,
she would come running. To Emily's surprise, Donna welcomed her in.
She was thrilled to see her, acting as if this
were the beginning of a beautiful friendship. She even tried
to hug Emily. Emily recoiled. Inside the room, Emily saw

(44:59):
something sar Donna had created a shrine to George, a
table covered in candles, cards, letters, and photos he had
sent her. Emily froze the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Oh weird.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
It was very weird. The whole thing was surreal. All
Emily could think was, this is who my father is
having an affair with. Donna launched into a rant quote,
your mother has had your father long enough. It's my
turn now. You and your brother and mother never appreciated him.
But I know him better than any of you ever could.
He loves me more than he loves any of you.

(45:31):
Read the cards, look at the letters. He doesn't love you, Emily,
he loves me.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Oh, Donna, you're gross.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
Emily finally spoke, quote, you can't keep doing this. We
want a family. It can't go on like this back
and forth. Can you please just stay out of our lives.
Donna replied, quote, don't worry. I'll be dead soon. You
can have your father back after I'm gone. Emily didn't
stay long after that. The whole encounter was too bizarre,

(45:59):
too disturbing, and no, she didn't get a clear read
on Donna's aura. George did stay with Donna that night,
but the next morning he returned home and told Gail
it was over. He said he was done with Donna
for good. This time. He would support the baby financially,
but that was it. I'm afraid that's where we are
going to have to leave it for part one.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Great, thanks, thanks so much. What's stopping me from reading ahead?
I have the whole script right here.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
I might take access back from you.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
I bet I know your Pasco.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
What do you think about George so far?

Speaker 1 (46:35):
I mean, he's not a very good man the last
case I did, I already mentioned Mark Girardo, But it
does sound like he's like Mark Girardo, where he wants
his cake and he wants to eat it too.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yeah, it does seem that way.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Why do you think men do that?

Speaker 2 (46:51):
I don't know. It Just to me, George seems like
very weak, Like it's it seems less about like him
wanting to have both Gail and Donna and more like
he just was too weak to make a commitment either way,
Like he just kept going back and forth and couldn't
he didn't want to reject anybody, but at the same
time he made both of them feel terrible.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
You know, I don't think you're the kind of guy
that would have an affair, But if you did, I
think that you would there would be things that you
would miss about our relationship because we've been together for
so long, and I think that I offer you look
in your faith. Maybe I don't.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
I'm just where you're going with this there, but go ahead.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
Just that I think that there's, you know, a comfort
even if you are in love with someone else, there's
a comfort with the spouse that you've been with for
twenty five plus years. Sure, and there's you know, just
the predictable nature and just comfort. And am I flattering
myself or.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
No, No, not at all. I think that. I think
that's true in a lot of relationships, Like if you've
been with someone for a long time, there is a
level of comfort there. But then at the same time,
I think a lot of men stray because they also
want some spark and something new, you know, something different,
And I think George, maybe you know, he'd like both
of those things. Maybe Gail, as we've talked about, was

(48:04):
very much a traditional wife. She wanted to support her man,
stand behind him no matter what. She was ready to
kind of forgive him and forget anything that he did wrong.
Looking back, like, I know we haven't finished the case yet,
but what do you think Gail could have done differently
to maybe change the dynamic.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
I've had talks with friends about this, or if we
know that someone else is having affair. A lot of
people will say, oh, I could never forgive an affair,
or you know, I'd kick him out so fast, you know,
blah blah blah. But until you're in that position, I
don't think you really know how you would react, right,
And if you don't have children, it might be a
different dynamic too, because most of us are. We'd hate

(48:45):
to tear apart our families. Yeah, and I think most
people in today's world try to reconcile and try to
work things out after having an affair.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Yeah. And I'm sure from Gail's perspective too, she was
probably really scared of being a like they had just
made this move to a different place. She didn't know anyone.
Her kids were, you know, growing up almost to the
point where they were out on their own, so she
was probably very fearful of being alone.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
And George was playing both sides. He never said, you know,
I really think that Donna is the one for me.
I want to start my life with her and end
things with you, because he was giving her false hope
that they had a future together.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah, he was just so wishy washy.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
One more thing, I just want to give a shout
out to women aged forty five to fifty five because
we go through a lot and so many of these
cases involve women in that age, and I think men
start realizing that they have it might be their last
chance to leave and start a new life. And I
think it just happens a lot.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Doesn't it. It does seem to Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Can you explain why.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
I can't explain why because I don't understand it, but
it does seem to happen a lot. That that is
sort of the age range when men may tend to stray.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
Tell me if I'm flattering myself, but I I feel
like marriage kind of gets good. Then your kids are
older and you have more freedom and you could just
spend more time together and you don't have to worry
so much. If you're lucky to your finances are a
little more secure, right, you might have time for, you know,
more getaways. And I still think you have a lot
of life to look forward to.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yeah, I absolutely think that. And I think that it
really depends on your mindset. We've talked about this before,
but I think your mindset in a marriage, like you
have to realize things are going to change over the years, right,
your kids are going to get older, they're going to
move out, they're going to go onto their own lives.
And if you're not prepared to like for your lives
to adapt and the way that you relate to each

(50:37):
other to adapt, then you might be in for trouble.
But I think if you're open and you know that, hey,
things are going to change over the years. I'm going
to change, You're going to change, situations are going to change,
then I think it does get better. My last question
for you is about the Olive Garden. What is your
favorite thing to get at the Olive Garden?

Speaker 1 (50:54):
Well, how would I know? You never take me to
nice places?

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Oh, that is not true at all. We haven't been
to the Olive Garden for a long time.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
We haven't, but we're older, and the Olive Garden used
to be like a really nice place to go.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
It was like when you wanted to go somewhere a
little bit of a step up.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
Because they had so many first dates at the Olive Garden.
It was just kind of where you would go. Yeah,
but I think I like the Tour of Italy.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
The Tour of Italy.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
They still have that.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
It's like twenty thousand calories. But I think I really
like fetich. There's some foods that we just don't really
eat at our house. No one likes feta chini eel fredo,
but me and no one really liked lazan. You like lazagna,
but I don't really make it at home because the
kids don't really like it. So I like to take
it chiel fredo. You. I'm surprised we don't eat there

(51:46):
more often, because you actually really love it.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
I really love their minnestroni soup. I love the soup,
salad and breadsticks. I don't know why it's such a
good It's such a good meal, and it's like all
you can eat and go.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Fund me so fun to me, to said Rich and
Tea Tina's big night out.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
That sounds good because this case took place in Lake Orion, which,
as I mentioned earlier, my grandma lived in Lake Orion.
I used to go to her house every Sunday. I
was thinking a lot about those days growing up in
my grandma. So my grandma, she and my grandpa lived

(52:25):
in They lived in an old house in Rochester, Michigan,
and then my grandpa passed away, and I think my
grandma must have had good life insurance or something, because
she proceeded to build her dream house in Lake Orion.
And I don't think you you never went there. I
don't think you met her once, right, but I don't
think you went to her house.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Yeah, No, I think I did, Okay.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Yeah, because it was she had this house built and
it was up on a big hill, on this huge
piece of property, and it was the craziest house. It
had like a spiral staircase up from the basement to
the main floor, and she had like beads instead of
doors over a lot of the doorways. Like she was
kind of like she was pretty hip as a grandma,
I think, and she had it decorated with a whole

(53:08):
bunch of like Japanese art everywhere. She was kind of
a character. But she was my mom's mom, and my
mom had like six or seven brothers and sisters. It
was a pretty big family, and they all had kids
who were a similar age to me. So we would
go there every Sunday and we would like I would
just hang out with my cousins explore the property, and
it was like it was really a magical place for me.

(53:29):
Like when I look back on it. It had this special
meaning for me. And at one point of going to
my grandma's my aunt who was much younger than my mom,
she had a pet skunk, which was really cool. And
my uncle he had like more records than you would
find in a record store. He was in a band,
and so I just loved going there. Every Sunday. I
was looking on Google Maps to see if the house

(53:49):
was still there, but I think I think someone tore
it down and rebuilt it. It was a really unique house,
but I don't think it was super high quality, well built,
and it was very like seventies ish, like, it had
a very seventies kind of vibe to it.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Was You was that the grandma that was a mail carrier?

Speaker 2 (54:05):
She was, and my grandpa was as well. Yeah, and
your dad was My dad was as well. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
Crazy. I have found myself feeling a little nostalgic lately. Yeah,
and it not even for like times when I was
a kid, but times when you could go to like
Bedmath and Beyond or Toys r Us.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
Yeah, when they were actually stores.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
The actually there's so acute stores. Now. I need a
new pillow I've been. I don't want to talk about
this too much. But you used to be able to
go to bed, Bath and Beyond and there were three
hundred pillows to choose from. And now you really can
just go to a couple of stores, and you know,
it's expensive to have things shipped to your house and
then if you have to exactly, so, I don't know,

(54:46):
I just kind of miss that. It is.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Really it's weird out there now, Like are the mall
that is near us is like kind of a ghost town.
It's just it's sort of sad.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
It's really sad. I had such fond memories of going
to the mall as a ca and you would always
need to walk into the mall and you would instantly
smell the burnt caramel corn from the caramel corn store.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
And yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
Know, there was like a steakhouse and the mall and
there was just like just a lot more to do.
You know, there's the bookstore and a toy store, and
now it's just a couple of dilapidated stores. Arm mall
is getting some sort of major upgrade though. There's maybe
apartments and I think more food.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Options, yeah, which will be interesting to see.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
I think I just read a couple of weeks ago
the mall near where I grew up that I went
to in high school, Like all the time, I think
it's gone. I think they tore it down.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
So yeah, wow, Well I feel bad for teenagers today,
or not just teenagers, but younger people do. It's like,
where do you go? Like my friends and I would
just go to like Toys r us and walk around
and be dumb, or you could are the record store
any of the other.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
We sound like the roller rink.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
Well I think there's still roller rings, but there's not many.
The drive in theater. Now we sound like we're two
hundred years old, and we're really only like one hundred
and forty years old.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
Once exactly.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
But before we go, I wanted to give a huge
shout out and thank you to our friend Allison, who
has been a very kind and loyal listener. She sent
I was talking about her. I think I was talking
about Clover and how she kept waking me up, and
Alison sent us this really nice, heated kind of pad
and our cats are fighting over it. They really love it,

(56:20):
and that was so sweet. So thank you, Allison, You're
just the best.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
And a little update. I'm not sure what happened, but
Clover is no longer interested in hanging out with us
at night. Lately, she's been I don't know where she's sleeping.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
You think it's the heating pad.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Does she like well, even before the heating pad, I
mean she I did put the heating pad in the hallway. Yeah,
and yeah, they kind of like it over there. But
even before that came, she'd kind of been.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
She is very fickle. You just never know. She can
be hot and cold. One day she loves you, the
next day she wants nothing to do with you.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Well, thank you to all the listeners that gave us
recommendations of what to do with the cats at night.
A lot of people said, we'll just put them in
the basement, and that's just.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
That's just an invitation for the cats to destroy them.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
I think our cats are just a little more feral
and they have their claws, so, I mean, Cosmo has
has destroyed a fair bit of carpeting in our eyes.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
They don't like to be locked out of a room.
If they are, they will destroy the carpeting under the
door trying to get through it. And thank you also
to everyone who is leaving comments on Spotify especially, we
love reading the comments and reading your feedback about cases.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
And unfortunately you can't do that on Apple. You have
to leave a whole review and I mean those.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
Those are great too, but we can't respond.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
To them, right and you can. You are in charge
of the Spotify. I would I do a lot of
the social media, but you are in charge of the Spotify,
so if but I usually kind of like or laugh
or love or with the comments.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
And I try to respond, but sometimes I get really
busy and I don't respond. So I apologize for that.
But we do read every comment and we really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
Thank you again to Julia and Sam for our Bucky snacks.
That was really fun. Yeah, that was Someday we will
get there.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
We will do.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
You know what I'm gonna do right now?

Speaker 2 (57:56):
What are you going to do?

Speaker 1 (57:57):
I'm going to go to patreon dot com slash love
Mary Kill or I'm already a subscriber so I can
listen to part two of this episode, so I can't
wait to see how it ends. Good thinking, And if
you want to support the podcast, please go to patreon
dot com slash Lovemrykill. For five dollars a month, you
get early add free access, and a monthly bonus episode

(58:18):
that is exclusive to Patreon. I don't want to brag,
but our Patreon is actually a really good deal. A
lot of other podcasts will charge you, you know, for
each extra thing you get, you have to pay extra.
We only have one here that's five dollars a month,
So please consider supporting us on Patreon.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social
media and now YouTube, or send us an email at
Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
And if you want to send us a snack, send
it to lmkpod p O box one one one Dexter,
Michigan four eight one three zero. Until next time.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
The Fat

Speaker 2 (59:28):
Compact