Nancy and Brad Cooper - Part 2

In July 2008, in the quiet suburb of Cary, North Carolina, Nancy and Brad Cooper appeared to have it all: two beautiful daughters, a picture-perfect life, and a circle of close-knit friends. But behind closed doors, their marriage was unraveling. When Nancy vanished after a routine morning run, the investigation revealed cracks in their carefully constructed world—and left a trail of questions that still linger.

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Today's snack: White Chocolate Chip Cherry Oatmeal Cookies

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing
we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
In some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to love, Mary kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how
are you? I'm going shithouse? How are you going?

Speaker 1 (00:32):
That is your new favorite phrase, isn't it my new catchphrase?
So we're leaving for vacation, even though we are already
back for vacation. If you're listening to this, but you
had a great time, Yeah, you're tying up a lot
of loose ends. So am I. Yeah, yeah, it's a
little stressful.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
It is a little bit, but I'm looking forward to vacation.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
So last episode, you asked me where I was on
the scale of wanting to kill your spouse, and I
forgot to ask you. So I wanted to bring it
up because I was. I started thinking about it. I
was like, wow, I didn't ask, so I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Well, and you know that's why you're always on the bubble.
That's why you're always in trouble because you forget that
I have feelings.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
You're always great, you're always at the below zero like
negative to the you're safe, you're well meaning, like that's
how little I want you to.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
D Okay, that's good, I'll take it.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
I'm still good on the marriage meter.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yes, nothing has changed since we spoke yesterday.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Even if I was like, you know, a ninety nine
out of one hundred, you're just a docile human being.
I don't think you would ever hurt her.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Of course not.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
It is hot as heck here in Michigan today. It's
about as hot as it can possibly get hair because
it's ninety five with a heat index. It's one oh five.
And we should be complaining because we're inside our air
conditioned house.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
The air condition can only do so much, and I
have been sticky all afternoon. It's no surprise that we
live really close to Hell.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Oh we do. We live close to Hell, Michigan, which
is an actual place. You recently met a friend there?

Speaker 2 (02:07):
I did. I went to the Hell Saloon and yeah,
did we have a good time. I did have a
good time. Yeah. It's it's a cute little town. It's
kind of like a kitchy little thing with you know,
themes like Hell. There's not much to it, but it's well.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
There's isn't there. There's an ice cream place and like
a mini pup place and a couple of little shops.
It's a cute little place.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
We are at the peak of cherry season here in Michigan,
which is one of my favorite times a year. Cherries
are one of my favorite fruits, and they really are
delicious here in Michigan. So I made you a snack.
I made you some cookies. I went to our local
market the other day and I got some cherries, some
fresh cherries, but I also got dried cherries.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
So I made you some cookies. And I've never made
cherry cookies before. This is a recipe from Sally's Baking.
It is white chocolate chip cherry oatmeal cookies. I know
you're not the biggest oatmeal guy, but I don't.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Mind oatmeal as long as there's not like raisins in it.
I think everything else it looks good.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
So I think cherry tried cherries and raises they're pretty similar.
Not really, how are they not? Really? Because they're both
like it's a grape that's dried or a cherry that's drucke.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
They are there are similarities for sure, But raisins I
just don't care for.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
But it's of like a plump fresh raisin sometimes like
in the box of raisin brand, like they get kind
of crusty and gross. But no, you're just a yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
But those cookies look really good.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, all right, we're gonna get them.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Try.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
I sure do.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Rate my cookie.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
I thought it was excellent, really good, goodlavor. I didn't
get a lot of cherry out of it, maybe just
the bites I had didn't have a lot of cherry.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
I put like one and a half times in the
cherries to be.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Called for, but very oatmeal forward. We've been watching Cop
Shecheff a lot lately. In cases, yes, you didn't realize
they were that phrase came from But no, I loved it.
I think nine out of ten.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Oh, okay, you're maybe an easy grader.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Well when it comes to cookies, I like you said
on part one, I haven't been eating sugar lately, so
any kind of sweet tree is probably gonna taste really good.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Well, I'm so glad that you like them. Maybe we
can take a few on vacation.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, let's do it, all right, Are.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
You ready to get back to Nancy and Brad Cooper.
I am do you want to give us a summary?

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Sure? Canadian couple Nancy and Brad Cooper married quickly in
two thousand after Brad accepted a job with Cisco Systems
in North Carolina. The sudden moved to the US, combined
with the loss of their support network, put an immediate
strain on the relationship. Nancy nearly left Brad early in
the marriage for another man, but by the time their
first daughter, Bella, was born in two thousand and four,

(04:50):
she had begun to settle into life in Carrie, North Carolina,
building a strong circle of friends. Their second daughter, Katie,
was born in two thousand and six. Brad, a telec
communications engineer, traveled frequently for work and was often emotionally
and physically unavailable. Tensions in the marriage grew, with Brad
becoming increasingly controlling, removing Nancy's name from their joint accounts,

(05:12):
taking away her credit cards, and giving her a three
hundred dollars weekly cash allowance, which he claimed was necessary
due to her shopaholic tendencies. They had decided to divorce,
with Brad initially saying Nancy and the girls could move
to Canada. But once he saw the separation agreement and
the steep child support he would be required to pay,
he changed course. On the morning of July twelve, two

(05:34):
thousand and eight, just hours after the couple attended a
neighborhood barbecue, Nancy was reported missing by a friend, not Brad.
He had said that she went for a run and
never returned. Her sudden disappearance alarmed her tight knit friend group,
and suspicion fell on Brad almost immediately. By the time
Nancy's body was found two days later in a muddy

(05:54):
drainage ditch three miles from their home, investigators were already
narrowing their focus on her husband. When we left off.
Emergency custody of Bella and Katie had been awarded to
her family, but Brad remained a free man due to
the lack of evidence linking him to Nancy's murder.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Would you like to add anything to that?

Speaker 2 (06:13):
No, I think that was pretty pretty thorough, okay.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
In the days following the discovery of Nancy's body, the
police chief asked the community to take down the missing
person's posters and place them with white ribbons as a
tribute to Nancy. At a subsequent press conference, Her family
members stepped up to the microphone one by one, each
sharing heartfelt memories and expressing how deeply they loved and
missed Nancy. They were a tight knit, devoted family who

(06:37):
made time together a priority, spending a week together every
Christmas and taking an annual vacation together. Just five days
before Nancy's death, they had returned from a week long
trip to Hiltonhead Island without Brad, a memory that now
brought them comfort and gratitude. They spoke lovingly of Nancy's warmth, kindness,
sharp sense of humor, and generous spirit. The family strength,

(07:01):
resilience and commitment to caring for Nancy's daughters would have
made her proud. Meanwhile, Brad and his attorneys held a
press conference too. They reminded the media that Brad hadn't
been named as a suspect and had cooperated with the police.
I'm not so sure how much he really was cooperating,
because remember he never went in for a formal statement.

(07:21):
He was questioned at his house a few times, but
he never went down to the police station. Seth Blum,
one of the attorneys, said, quote, I speak to you
today as a result of the wild speculation that has
been internationally reported surrounding the death of Brad's wife, Nancy.
The bizarre and unsupportive theories that have been floating around

(07:41):
television and the Internet have made it impossible for us
to sit quietly and to say nothing. Brad Cooper is
a private man. He's not accustomed to the hot glare
of the media spotlight. He never dreamed that he would
see his face splashed across television news shows or his
name in the headlines, especially not under these terrible circumstances.

(08:02):
Brad Cooper is also a man in mourning. He's lost
his wife. He is grieving. Mister Cooper wishes to mourn privately.
He does not want to do it at press conferences.
He does not wish to do it for reporters. He
does not wish to mourn in the public eye. Brad's
attorneys took an unusual approach and their effort to shape

(08:23):
public opinion. On their law firm's website. They created a
dedicated section for his case, sharing documents, surveillance camera footage,
and commentary. One statement rad quote. We hope Brad will
be afforded the same dignity and presumption of innocence that
each of us would demand for ourselves. We pray that
the distorted focus on Brad Cooper will not allow the

(08:45):
guilty to escape detection.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
That is a pretty novel approach. I haven't heard of
that before. It kind of screams like being defensive though.
It just seems like it just feels like they're on
the defensive, which I guess they are.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
I think that can get you in trouble with a
judge too, though. Like sharing evidence before the trial, the
site included a detailed timeline of events and security footage
showing Brad making two trips to the grocery store before
seven am on July twelfth, in response to a rumor
that Brad had purchased bleach to clean up after killing Nancy.
The footage showed clearly that he only bought milk and

(09:21):
laundry detergent at two separate times, six twenty five and
six forty four am. Another section of the website appeared
aimed at discrediting Nancy's close knit circle of friends, referring
to them dismissively as the Carrie Click. On Saturday, July nineteenth,
hundreds gathered at the cuckabooth Amphitheater, a place Nancy loved,

(09:42):
for a memorial in her honor. The Rents family, still
staying at a hotel, planned to attend with Bella and Katie,
but Bella didn't know that her mother was gone yet.
Katie was too young to understand. The family had consulted
a child psychologist about how to best break the news.
The plan was for Brad to come to the hotel

(10:02):
so they could tell Bella together. Instead, Brad took the
girl swimming, leaving them little time before the memorial. That
responsibility ultimately fell to Nancy's mother, Donna. In the car
on the way to the service, Donna gently told Bella,
Mommy was lost and they couldn't find her. When they
found Mommy, the doctors couldn't help her. Mommy has died.

(10:23):
Mommy is with the angels. Bella, who was about four
and a half, seemed to understand. She cried softly and repeated,
Mommy is not coming back. Donna held her close and said, no,
but we're all here. We all love you and we're
going to take care of you.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
That's so hard because there's no way a child that
young is going to be able to understand right It
happened right.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
The memorial was deeply emotional, with many of Nancy's friends
speaking about her warmth, kindness, and joy. Brad Cooper was
noticeably absent. A few days later, another memorial was held
in Nancy's hometown of Edmonton. Friends and family created a
moving photomontage set to music, capturing moments from Nancy's life.
Hundreds of images were shared, but not a single one

(11:10):
included Brad, so you can tell the family is starting
to pull away from Brad. Yeah, did the investigators in
this case have tunnel vision? Were there other leads that
weren't followed up on? From pretty early on, it seemed
like the police had their sights set on Brad Cooper
and they weren't looking anywhere else. Once Nancy's body was

(11:30):
found and the public started asking questions, investigators zeroed in
on Brad. It's not entirely surprising statistically speaking, of course,
when a woman is killed, the husband is most often responsible,
but there's a difference between following a lead and getting
stuck on one. Brad was definitely acting a little off,
and there were things that raised eyebrows, like the cleaned

(11:51):
out trunk of his BMW and the fact that only
parts of the house had been freshly cleaned, but instead
of asking why you're keeping an open mind, it seemed
like investors took every odd detail as a confirmation that
Brad was guilty. Brad said he cleaned the trunk because
he spilled gasoline, but there was no lingering odor of gas.
Instead of investigating that further, the police just didn't buy it.

(12:12):
And that group of tight knit friends Nancy had the
so called carry click, had a lot to say about Brad.
They described him as controlling and emotionally distant, and police
seemed to take their word for it without much pushback,
while their perspective definitely mattered. There's a difference between testimony
and assumption. What's more troubling is the idea that other
leads may have been ignored completely. If Nancy did go

(12:35):
for a run that morning, did police thoroughly check the
area or follow up with every possible witness, or were
they already so focused on Brad that they pushed those
avenues aside. Brad's defense team later argued that the case
against him was more about fitting the facts into a
theory than actually solving the crime, and it's hard not
to wonder were investigators trying to figure out who killed

(12:56):
Nancy or were they just trying to prove it was Brad.
Was Brad really abusive to Nancy, or was she just
very vocal to her friends about every perceived slight and disagreement.
I mention all of this because a lot of people
think that Brad could possibly be innocent.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah. Well, it's definitely true that police do sometimes have
tunnel vision, and that's not a good thing. But sometimes
it's they have tunnel vision because it's kind.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Of obvious that's where the evidence is pointing.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, but I do agree like that his alibi that
she went on a run and disappeared, should have been
very thoroughly checked out, like I would think they would
canvass the entire neighborhood everywhere that she potentially would have gone.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
I believe that they did.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, So in the morning of July twelfth, many people
were out walking or jogging early to beat the rising
summer heat. Despite the active neighborhood, no one initially came
forward to see that they'd seen Nancy until Rosemary Zednik
spoke up. She said that she'd tried contacting the Carrey
Police department multiple times, but never received a follow up. Eventually,

(13:59):
she gave a more an affidavit to Brad Cooper's attorneys,
stating that she'd seen Nancy around seven to ten while
out walking her dog. According to Rosemary, Nancy jogged past her,
wearing an iPod and greeting her with a quick high.
At the time, Rosemary didn't recognize Nancy, but later, after
seeing a missing person's fire, she realized that it had

(14:19):
been Nancy.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
This reminds me a little bit of lazy Peters.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
I didn't say that.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yes, It just worries me because I think when a
story like this comes out, people their memories are not
always so good, and they want to be they want
to have seen her, and so they're like, yeah, I
did see her. I'm sure it was her.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
It's almost like you're a police officer, I know, with
the Carrie Police Department, because I think that's what they said.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
I mean, yeah. Brad filed several affidavits with the court
in an attempt to undo the damage caused by the
sworn statements from Nancy's friends. He denied all the allegations
against him, he had an answer for everything. In response
to the claim that he was financially abusive to Nancy.
Brad said that after paying the bills, he gave Nancy
eighty percent of whatever remained. According to his affidavit, this

(15:04):
came out to roughly three hundred dollars a week. He
said that Nancy often told him it wasn't enough, and
that he frequently tried to supplement the amount when he could.
They were deeply in debt and he was trying to
pull them out and live within their means. And we
talked about it on Part one. Three hundred dollars a week,
which in today's dollars I think you said was four
hundred and fifty dollars a week. It's not a small

(15:24):
amount when it comes to buying groceries and kind of
daily household expenditures.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Right. I think back to Josh Powell, Josh and Susan Powell.
He was severely financially abusive to his wife and like
to a much greater extent. Right. But like we said
in Part one, I think it's more the idea of
taking a grown up credit cards and paying account from them.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
That is definitely yeah, that is overly controlling. Yes, Brad
disputed that he ever took Nancy's phone away and produced
phone records that showed that Nancy had made three four
hundred and fifty six cell phone calls between January and
June of two thousand and eight. That's about twenty calls
a day.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
That's so many calls is a lot. She had a
lot of French. She was very popular.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
He claimed it was Nancy's lavish spending that caused them
to be forty five thousand dollars in debt and required
him to take out an eighty thousand dollars home equity loan.
Brad said in his affidavit quote, Nancy liked to buy
eight thousand dollars paintings, designer clothing, Tiffany jewelry status was
important to Nancy, and I indulged her too much.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
I think that he is exaggerating greatly. I think that
Nancy liked nice things, but I don't think that she
was a shopaholic. I think when you're young and you
have two young kids, there's a lot of you know,
needs and right once and yeah, It's not like she
went out every week and was like, you know, I'm
gonna buy this ten thousand dollars painting. Yeah, it happened once.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
He pointed to a fully loaded BMW that she had
wanted that he had purchased. He cited a three thousand
dollar necklace that he had bought her for Christmas as well.
He broke down there two thousand and seven spending on
their American Express card. Nancy spent twenty seven thousand dollars
and he spent seventeen thousand dollars. He made about sixty
five thousand dollars a year, which is about one hundred

(17:11):
thousand in today's dollars. One hundred thousand dollars a year
in today's dollars. That seems remarkably low for when we
talked about in part one. He has an very very
specialized skill set in telecommunications and voiceover IP or voice,
so it seems, Yeah, that seems really low to me.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yeah, their budget was tight and being forty thousand dollars
in debt, like you have to tighten things up where
that debt is just going to keep snowballing.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, for sure. Brad admitted to only one affair, a
one night stand with Heather Mature. Along with his affidavit,
he sent numerous pictures of himself as a doting father
dressed up for Halloween, swimming, reading and holding them lovingly
as babies. To quote Amy Lamb, the author of Love Lies,
A True Story of Marriage and Murder in the Suburbs quote,

(18:00):
the pictures were so normal, so mundane. It seemed that
either this man was being set up or he was
a master of deception. Brad's parents and brother submitted affidavits
in support of his effort to retain custody of Bella
and Katie. Two of the girl's preschool teachers and five
of Brad's friends also provided statements on his behalf. One

(18:20):
friend submitted affidavits for both Brad and the Rents family.
The affidavits didn't say anything negative about Nancy, just that
Brad was a loving, capable father. On July twenty fifth,
nearly two weeks after Nancy's murder, the emergency custody agreement expired,
prompting a court hearing. That same day, Nancy's sister and
brother in law, Christa and Jim Lister, filed a motion

(18:43):
requesting that Brad undergo a psychological evaluation, expressing concern that
he was unfit to parent. Brad was hesitant to testify
under oath, so.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
This case is very similar to the Michelle and Jason
Young case that we did a few weeks ago. And
remember that Jason he relinquished custody of his daughters rather
than testify under oaths. Right, but at least Brad here is,
you know, willing to testify.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
His reluctance led the judge to extend temporary custody to
the Rentz family until a full hearing could be held
in October. In the meantime, Brad was permitted to call
his daughters four times a week and have supervised visits
twice a month, limited to four hours each weekend.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
These calls, I guess were a nightmare for Christa and
Jim to try to harness the kids and say hey,
let's have a call with Daddy, and yeah, they had
no interest in it. You know, Katie is just two
and Bellows four, and they just really hated having to
talk to Brad over the phone. And Brad was really
you know, heard because he wanted to talk to his

(19:46):
girls and they were very far away. So it was
it was a tough situation.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, that is a tough situation. His attorneys framed the
custody decision as one that Brad accepted for the sake
of his children, suggesting that he wanted to shield them
from the media spotlight and believed that they were better
off in Canada away from public scrutiny. In a statement
released after the ruling, his legal team said quote, while
he will miss the daily joys of fatherhood, he fully

(20:12):
intends to remain a vital force in his children's lives.
Though it is painful to contemplate any additional day without
his girls, mister Cooper accepts this as a heartrending but
necessary step toward achieving justice.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'm surprised that the judge allowed Christa, the rent's family
to take the girls to Canada, because it's twelve hours
from Toronto to carry North Carolina. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
I'm surprised at that too. I mean, I know he's
under suspicion and it maybe wasn't a good parent or
a good fit for him to have custody, But I
would think that they would take into consideration than arrested.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah, don't get me wrong. I don't want to to
seem like I'm empathetic towards Brat. It just was a surprise.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
It is surprising. Yeah, we'll be back after a break.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
After Nancy's death, both girls, especially four year old Bella,
struggled with the overwhelming loss. Ellie began having accidents and
became emotionally fragile, prone to sudden tears and intense tantrums.
Her grandparents arranged for her to see a grief counselor,
but nothing could soothe the pain of losing her mother.
It was heartbreaking to witness. When they gently reminded her

(21:26):
that her mommy was now with the angels, Bella looked
at the sky and cried, Mommy, where are you? I
need you. She carried a photo of Nancy everywhere she went.
Bella kept a special box filled with little treasures and
trinkets that reminded her of her mom. Sweet, four year
old sized keepsakes she either clung to or hoped to
show Nancy. One day, That simple ritual seemed to give

(21:49):
her a bit of comfort. So heartbreaking it is. Katie,
being younger, couldn't fully express what she was feeling, but
the signs of her grief were clear. Her sleep became
disordered and her speech was noticeably delayed. Donna and Gary
Wrenz adored their granddaughters, but felt they were too old
to take on the demands of full time parenting. Among
Nancy's siblings, all were happily married, and two of the

(22:10):
couples had one child each. Christa and Nancy's twin had
been very close to Bella and Katie. She called them
every morning on the way to school. The girls called
her Christamum, and because she looked so much like Nancy,
her present was a comfort to them after their mother
was gone. Christa had undergone a hysterectomy and couldn't conceive naturally,
but she shared a deep bond with her nieces, who

(22:32):
adored her in return. When Nancy was still alive, the
sisters had even discussed the possibility of Nancy asked acting
as a surrogate for Christa after her death. The Rent's
family believed that Christa and her husband Jim were the
best choice to raise Bella and Katie. The only complication
was that they lived in Toronto, while the rest of
the family remained in Edmonton, over two thousand miles away.

(22:54):
Christa said quote, I always wanted kids to get them
this way. No, but the cool thing is that they've
got my DNA. Nan and I shared that it's the
closest thing to having kids for me. Krista and Jim
embraced parenting their nieces despite the challenges they faced. Krista
left her career as an interior designer to care for
Bella and Katy full time. Both girls struggled with separation, anxiety,

(23:17):
and sleep issues, an understandable response to the trauma that
they had endured, but with patience, structure, and unconditional support,
they began to heal. Krista and Jim enrolled them in
ballet and gymnastics, and in their bedroom they displayed family photos,
including pictures of both Nancy and Brad. The girl psychologist
was encouraged by their progress. In a deposition during the

(23:40):
custody proceedings, she praised the family's efforts, saying, quote, this
is a remarkable family who truly thinks and acts whatever
way is required to serve the best interest of these children.
I have never had reason to question their integrity or
their commitment to provide Bella and Katy with a happy,
healthy life, one that, though without out their mother, keeps

(24:01):
Nancy Cooper's presence very much alive for them. Her influence,
character and strength remade an integral part of their lives.
On August sixth, two thousand and eight, a new sworn
affidavit was submitted to the court, this time by Carrie Clark,
the friend that Brad claimed Nancy had gone running with
on the morning of July twelfth. The statement was just

(24:21):
one sentence, but it dramatically shifted the course of the
investigation and public perception of Brad Cooper. Quote. I had
no plans to run with Nancy Cooper on Saturday, July twelfth,
two thousand and eight, and I never ran with Nancy
Cooper on July twelfth, two thousand and eight. While the
affidavit didn't prove that Nancy hadn't gone for our run

(24:43):
that day, it casts serious doubt on Brad's version of events,
and it didn't look good for him.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
No, it doesn't look good for him.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
I don't know why Brad would say that.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
I know that seems really such an.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Easy thing to check up on.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
With the custody issue not resolved and Brad not arrested,
he sat for a comprehensive psychological evaluation in August, an
eight hour test that costs about twelve thousand dollars. Ultimately,
the results found him to be a normal, nonviolent person
with an anger problem that he mostly kept under control,
especially in public.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
That is my nightmare, be psychologically festive.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
They would probably just commit me right then in there.
Do you think you would? How would you fare?

Speaker 2 (25:29):
I have no idea. I don't really want to know either.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
I guess think you're pretty unflappable. Brad sat for a
deposition in October two thousand and eight again for the
custody battle. He seemed calm and unflappable, because that's a
favorite word, I guess. So some things that were memorable
were Brad not recalling the color of the dress Nancy
had worn the night of the party, and not remembering
if he'd washed it. Do you think that you can

(25:53):
recall what I wore yesterday?

Speaker 2 (25:55):
No, I definitely that part doesn't seem at all suspicious
to me, because yeah, there's I wouldn't remember that either,
But not remembering if he'd washed it? Did he he
didn't normally do the laundry. I'm guessing it.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
Didn't normally do laundry, but if you remember when he
went to the grocery store, he did purchase laundry detergent,
So either he or Nancy was doing laundry that morning.
But typically no, I don't believe he did it. He
claimed to never have driven by fielding drive in the
new subdivision where Nancy's body was found. Quote, no, I
haven't driven past it. I have no interest in driving

(26:26):
past it. When asked about his past relationships, he named
his two ex fiancees, Taylene Lyon and Jennifer Wilson. He
said there was no history of violence, but neither woman
could be found to corroborate this claim. We'll come back
to this in a few minutes after the deposition was
made public, Detective Greg Daniels, who was leading the investigation,

(26:48):
made a statement, quote, Bradley Cooper has not fully cooperated
with her investigation into the murder of Nancy Cooper and
has not been willing to come to the police department
to assist in the vastigation and provide information, despite formal
requests from the Carrey Police Department that he do so.
The testimony given under oath by Bradley Cooper during his

(27:10):
video deposition is inconsistent with the statements made by Bradley
Cooper to the Carrie Police Department at his residence on
July twelfth, thirteenth and fourteenth, two thousand and eight. Jennifer Windsor,
who had previously been referred to in legal documents as
Jennifer Wilson, believed Brad Cooper intentionally mistated her name to

(27:30):
make her harder to find. After moving from Alberta to Hawaii,
she was contacted by a friend back in Canada who
told her that her name had come up in Brad's deposition.
In response, Jennifer voluntarily offered to provide a statement. In
her deposition, she described Brad as emotionally abusive throughout their relationship. Quote,

(27:52):
he constantly belittled me in front of others. He frequently
criticized my weight and appearance, even telling people I look
pregnant when I I wasn't. Jennifer said that she had
never before and never since, been in a relationship where
she was treated so poorly. She described Brad as emotionally
detached and mentally cruel. After they broke up, she asked

(28:14):
him to move out, and he simply relocated to another
apartment in the same building. A neighbor warren Jennifer that
Brad had been entering her apartment while she was away.
Quote by the end of our relationship, I feared for
my physical safety. His behavior became increasingly disturbing, so much though,
that I broke my lease and moved out to avoid
living in the same building as him.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Wow, that's pretty damning as well. Did they ever find
the other ex fiance?

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Not that I know of.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
On October sixteenth, another custody hearing was held to determine
if Bella and Katie would remain in Canada or rejoin
Brad in North Carolina.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
I think during this time Brad had only seen the
girls twice. He had to have supervised custody. He had
to go I'm sorry, supervised visitation. He had to go
to a a certain building and people had to watch
him with the girls, and he could only see them
for four hours at a time.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Okay. Nancy's family and friends again all testified, but Brad
did not. A new witness at this hearing was doctor
James Hilkey, the psychologist who had evaluated Brad. He said
Brad was very intelligent, but not good at reading social
cues and sometimes came off as arrogant and detached. He said, quote,
I think mister Cooper is a very complex man. He

(29:28):
is in a very complex situation, which makes the evaluation
challenging mister Cooper presents as someone who is somewhat angry
and somewhat anxious. He couldn't rule out that Brad was
being deceptive. Rosemary Zednik testified with certainty that the woman
she saw running on July twelfth was Nancy Cooper. However,
her eagerness to be involved raised some eyebrows. She had

(29:51):
reached out to police nine times, and, frustrated by the
lack of response, eventually contacted Brad's defense team, who were
eager to hear what she had to say. At that point,
she was the only person besides Brad who claimed to
have seen Nancy alive that morning. At the end of
the eight hour hearing, the judge asked for patients as
she thought about it. Four days later, she ruled that

(30:12):
Bella and Katie could remain in Canada with Christa and
her husband, Jim.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
I'm so glad that this judge had that foresight to
leave them in Canada because again, it reminds me of
other cases that we've had, like Susan and Josh Powell,
where the children weren't safe with their father. Yeah, and
I think the children's safety is the most important thing.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah, it just seems like the best situation all around
for the children at this point. On Monday, October twenty seventh,
two thousand and eight, a grand jury in Wake County
convened to review the evidence against Brad Cooper. By the
end of the day, he was arrested and charged with
the first degree murder of his wife, Nancy. Neighbors watched
from their doorsteps as Brad was led out of his

(30:54):
home in handcuffs. One even stood in the street and
cheered and applauded. That same day, Brad appeared in court,
his face expressionless as the judge ordered him held without bond.
His legal team told the court that Brad had exhausted
his financial resources and requested a public defender. The judge
agreed to let his attorney, Howard Kurtz stay on the case,

(31:15):
with the state covering the cost. In a somewhat unexpected
show of support, Brad's mother, Carol Cooper, attended the hearing.
She stood by her son, but declined to speak with reporters.
Nancy's family was elated, mostly because Bella and Katie were
now safe and their custody would no longer be in question.
Christa said, quote huge weight lifted. I was elated. Oh man,

(31:39):
we were so happy. We felt like we won. It
was good closure. Now we have the kids, We're good.
I felt that all of my suspicions were correct and
that I was finally allowed to grieve and say, Okay,
now I know that what I was feeling was right.
It was great. It was so good. In early December,
at a rule twenty four hearing, the DA announced the

(31:59):
state would not be seeking the death penalty. The judge
set bail at two million dollars.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
Which he was not able to provide, and stayed in jail.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
The psychologist advised Christa and Jim that the girls would
only bring up things they were ready to face. In
February two thousand and nine, a girl at Bella's school
drew a picture of a woman in a pool of
blood and said, this is Bella's mama.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Oh this makes me so mad.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, that's really awful, another parent told Christa, who immediately
went to the school to confirm the story. The psychologist
urged her to be honest with Bella, but keep her
answers simple and age appropriate. One evening, sitting on the
bathroom floor, Bella said, matter of factly, quote I know, Mama,
Nancy didn't get hurt running. She was too strong. It

(32:45):
had to be a bear or a man. Christa gently replied,
it wasn't a bear. You're right, she was killed. Bella
looked her straight in the eye. Do you know who
Christa's heart pounded? Quote? No, But the police have a
suspect and one day there will be a trial. They're
working very hard to find out who did this. That's
a really delicate conversation to have to have.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, and the bear man thing too, is very astute
for five year old.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
As much as she wanted to tell Bella everything, Christa
knew she had to wait until Brad was convicted. In
May two thousand and nine, Brad signed away his parental
rights to his children, giving Christa and Jim permanent custody,
but he was still hoping to win them back. When
he was exonerated, Brad's attorneys subpoenaed Nancy's medical records and
found she had an STD screening in April two thousand

(33:36):
and eight. They used this to accuse her of having
multiple affairs. It's unclear why she had the test, but
could just as easily have been because she was protecting
herself from Brad's extramarital affairs. Brad wanted the trial moved,
thinking a fair trial would be impossible in Wake County.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
But that did not happen. Brad Cooper's trial for the
first degree murder of his wife began nearly three years
after her death in March twenty eleven. Brad's parents flew
in for the trial to support their son, keeping to
themselves and not talking to the media. During opening arguments,
Assistant da Amy Fitzhugh accused Brad of intercepting and reading

(34:14):
Nancy's emails and financial control. She said that Brad had
been uncooperative with police and that his story had changed
over time. She closed with quote, you will be convinced
that Nancy Brenz Cooper never went for a run on
July twelve, two thousand and eight. You will be convinced
that Bradley Graham Cooper killed his wife and his guilty

(34:35):
of first degree murder. The prosecution's theory was that Brad
strangled Nancy on the night of July twelfth when she
came home, and then dumped her body at the construction
site between the grocery store runs. The next morning. Howard Kurtzy,
speaking for Brad's defense, spoke for more than two hours,
dropping new evidence as he went. He claimed that sixteen

(34:55):
people had seen Nancy out jogging on Saturday, July twelfth,
but police had never followed up with any of them,
accusing the Carey Police Department of tunnel vision ignoring any
evidence that didn't fit into their narrative that Bread had
killed Nancy. Kurtz accused Nancy of quote airing the couple's
dirty laundry and embellishing as only she could. He also

(35:18):
accused Nancy of having an affair with a neighbor, John Pearson,
who had admitted to having sex with Nancy after a
Halloween party while Brad was out of town. Katy was
born eight months and twenty four days later. Defense attorneys
had attempted to get a DNA test done, but they
were never able to do so. They were trying to
lay groundwork that Pearson had motive. Pearson would say under

(35:42):
oath later that he didn't think Katy was his child,
but he'd also wondered. He said that the sexual encounter
with Nancy ended abruptly when they'd realized it was a mistake,
and they'd agreed to never talk about it again. At
the time, Nancy had been trying actively to get pregnant
and was undergoing fertility treatments. And for what it's worth,
John Pearson did have an alibi for July twelfth, and

(36:06):
he was with his children while his ex wife was working.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
Brad's demeanor during the trial appeared odd to some people.
He was seen smiling and joking with his attorneys. One
point the prosecution wanted to drive home was that Nancy
had been murdered the night before her disappearance when she
returned from the party. They contended that the phone call
that Brad had received asking him to return to the
store was an automated phone call that he'd set up

(36:32):
using software from his job. Oh interesting, Does that make
sense to you?

Speaker 2 (36:37):
I mean, I don't know how easy that would be
to do, but it does make sense that that could
be a possibility.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yes, I've heard that. People say that that's actually not
that hard to do.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
A CSI agent testified that there was evidence of blood
found under Nancy's fingernails, but it wasn't able to be
identified due to her body being exposed to the elements
for so long. A detective testified that they'd never found
the pair of sneakers that Brad was wearing during his
first grocery store run. During the second run, he was
wearing sandals or flip flops. A geologist analyzed the soil

(37:10):
in a different pair of brad sneakers and said that
it contained micah, a mineral found in the soil where
Nancy was found, which was the only forensic evidence linking
him to Nancy's murder, and that was pretty weak and.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
Feels micah is probably found in a lot of places,
right yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
A voice technology expert testify that on the morning of
July twelfth, Brad made several brief calls to check his
voicemail at six thirty seven, six forty five, and six
point fifty three. At seven twenty six am, he called
Cisco's voicemail system in Ireland and left a three second
message that was routed to his North Carolina office. The

(37:48):
message simply said testing one two three. Then at seven
point fifty six, he dialed into Cisco's conference call system
based in San Jose, California. His testimony was very technical,
but in essence he acknowledged that it was possible to
remotely place a call to his cell phone and make
it look like it had originated from his home phone.

(38:10):
To make this special phone call, Brad would need a router,
this very specific router, and it was available at his
Cisco office. If you worked in the Cisco office, you
were welcome to take any equipment home with you. And
it was missing from the office. But it also was
not present in the Cooper's home either. And I also
heard something that if you were using this technology, the

(38:32):
phone call can only be twenty three seconds long, and
the phone call Brad made was thirty six seconds or
something like that. Okay, So Brad didn't testify, but his
seven hour deposition was played in court. I watched parts
of the deposition an old boy. It was dry. Yeah,
it was tough to get through. Yeah. An FBI agent

(38:52):
confirmed that Brad had intercepted emails from Nancy's account, including
messages from her attorney, friend's family, and an old boy.
Emails between Brad and a frenchwoman were also found. Brad's
NBA graduating class took a trip to Paris, where he
met a woman that classmates recall him spending a lot
of time with Nancy's laptop, which was kept in the

(39:14):
kitchen had been used on the morning of her disappearance,
as well as the following morning. Brad had looked up
news articles related to Nancy's disappearance and gone to the
website web Sluice. But on Brad's computer, a search that
he'd done on the afternoon of July eleventh, the day
before Nancy disappeared, changed everything. He viewed and zoomed in

(39:35):
on a satellite aerial view of a fielding drive in Carrie,
North Carolina on Google Maps, the exact location where Nancy's
body was found.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Oh boy.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
The courtroom sat in stunned silence as the prosecutor dropped
the bombshell. The defense didn't have much legroom, but pointed
out no cookies from Google Maps were on Brad's computer.
Bought cookies are super easy to delete. They all also
suggested that someone could have planted the evidence or hacked
into his computer. Also bookmarked on his computer was a

(40:07):
website A practical Guide to Suicide We'll be back after
a break.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
On Tuesday, April nineteenth, the defense began their case. They
knew they needed to clean up the Google Map search
of Fielding drive, the most damning evidence against Brad. They
claimed that his laptop had not been powered down when
seized by police, and for those twenty seven hours it
was vulnerable to hacking and other files could have been
tampered with as well. In fact, six hundred and ninety

(40:42):
two files were found to have been modified.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Okay, this is a question for you because I am
not a computer person. But files are constantly being updated
on your computer, whether you're doing the updating or not.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Correct it depends on what kind of files. It's hard
to say six hundred and ninety two generic files, but yeah,
definitely things are changing on your computer all the time,
whether you're doing anything or not.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Does that seem like an unusually high amount though not
not really necessarily right.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, it's hard to say without more information, but it
seems like it's certainly possible that that could be the case.
The police could have framed him. Rosemary' zednik and a
few others testified about seeing women jogging that looked like Nancy.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
And allegedly there was this mysterious van. There's always a
mysterious vand I say, and there were two Hispanic men
in the van, so you know they were up to
no good.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Allegedly, several police officers disputed Rosemary's claim and remembered talking
to her, but found her to be not credible.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
One thing that police pointed to was that Rosemary was
insistent that the person that the person she saw jogging
had an iPod, and Nancy never ran with an iPod.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
Oh. Interesting surveillance video from Maylie of Nancy, Bella, and
Katie at the grocery store resurfaced. It was likely after
they had left the pool after spending the day with friends.
As Nancy walked out of the store, it was clear
that she hadn't been wearing the diamond pendant that her
friends had testified. She never took off. And this is
another bombshell. Detective Jim Young accidentally deleted the contents of

(42:21):
Nancy's BlackBerry. Was it an accident? Could there have been
evidence of an affair or other exculpatory evidence.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
Okay, this is another question for you because I know
it was one hundred years ago, but you owned a
BlackBerry and I had heard that they are very hard
to delete.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
I have no idea, I have no recollection of that.
That seems like that would be a pretty big mistake,
But I don't know how easy your heart it would
be to do that.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
But then in the police department's defense, they also said, well,
we have that data from the phone company, so so.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
It didn't really matter if it was deleted because they
could get the data.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
End.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
That's what they were saying. But who knows, yeh.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
On April twenty eighth, the jury sent the judge the
following note, quote, please encourage the attorneys to use time
more wisely. We are hoping to finish this soon. Please
ask them to have their witnesses ready to go. We
want our lives back. That's really wild.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
Isn't that funny. I've never heard of a jury doing
it before, and I love them for it. I mean,
the trial had gone on for about two months, and
I don't believe anyone thought it was going to last
as long as it did. These jurors were just like,
they're frustrate. I think there was a lot of you know,
I went through it really quickly, relatively quickly, but I
think there was a lot of technical testimony.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah that's enough. Yeah. The defense rested the next day.
The judge denied their request to dismiss the case.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
On Tuesday, May third, the eight week trial entered its
last phase after closing arguments. The jury was made up
of ten women and two men. That's a very woman
heavy jury, right.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
On the second day, after five hours, they requested to
see several pieces of evidence, including photographs of Nancy's body
from behind, three photographs taken by police of the Cooper's bedroom,
cell phone records from both of the Cooper's phones, customer
records from two grocery stores, and the videotape deposition of
Brad Cooper from October two thousand and eight. This indicated

(44:21):
to everyone waiting that they were struggling to come to
a consensus. But on the third day, after about nine
hours of deliberation, they reached a verdict. What do you
think their.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
Verdict was, I am going to go with guilty.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Guilty of first degree murder, sentenced to life in prison
without the possibility of parole. Brad sat emotionless, as did
his parents behind him. On the other side of the courtroom.
The Rent's family wept and held each other. The jury
members wiped tears from their faces as they watched the
emotional celebration. Judge Paul Gessner spoke directly to the jury.

(44:54):
He implored them not to second guess their verdict or
questioned the process based on what they heard in the
media in the days and weeks to come. Quote and
certainly don't concern yourself with the opinions of the bloggers
and the comments to the news stories. You heard all
this evidence. You had the opportunity to judge the credibility
of each witness firsthand. Your opinion is the only opinion

(45:18):
that counts. The anonymous, uninformed opinions of others are completely irrelevant.
Though that was a very good statement, because it's true.
I think we always second guess a verdict of jury's opinion.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
But they sat through eight weeks of testimony.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
An appeal was immediately filed. After the verdict, Donna and
Gary approached Terry and Carrol Cooper, Brad's parents to offer
their condolences. The Cooper's reserved and quiet left without responding
to the Rence's kind gesture. Before leaving, Donna generously told
Carol to reach out so they could arrange a visit
for Bella and Katie.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
That is really nice that they did that.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
I know.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
Gary and Donna addressed the media outside these quote, the
relief is palpable. Today. We feel that the love and
nurturing and care that we've given Bella and Katie has
been rewarded, and we're going to be blessed with being
able to continue the care for those wonderful children. The
tragedy is that you have two young lives that were wasted,
Nancy who was no longer with us, and Brad who

(46:19):
now faces an elongated period of incarcederation. And I just
feel sad for both of those. There's no particular joy
in either of those for us, Donna said, quote, I
just felt her presence. I was happy that this day
finally came. I am happy for the little girls and
happy for our family. Gary continued, We as a family,

(46:40):
I think a long time ago made up our mind
that we would not deal with ourselves as victims, but
rather deal with ourselves as survivors. We're going to go
home and pick up our lives. It's been a long
run for us.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Really do seem like a lovely family.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
Yeah, they really do. Do you have reasonable doubt as
to Brad's guilt.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
Based on what I've I've heard so far, I would
say no, I don't.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Okay, let's go over the evidence one more time. First,
we'll go with the exculpatory evidence. There is a lack
of physical evidence linking Brad to the crime scene. Right,
but Nancy was strangled, and I think when that happens,
there is little evidence that's left behind. Right, There's no blood,
there was no sign of a struggle in the home,

(47:22):
although Brad did have time to clean up. Right. Yeah,
the GPS map controversy. The defense argued that the laptop
used to make this search had been in police custody
and the file could have been altered or planted.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
That seems like a real long shot to me.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Will be the sheriff or whoever said we don't know
how to do that?

Speaker 2 (47:42):
I know they actually they accidentally deleted a BlackBerry. I
don't get the sense that they're the most technically.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
Did they accidentally deleted the that's the accusation. Sure, But
also if they were going to plant evidence, wouldn't they
plant more damning evidence than just you know, this file that.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Was pretty damning. But yeah, I would think they would
do other things.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
Yeah, police were accused of tunnel vision not following up
on other potential leads. But the only other lead was
really there were a few people that thought that they
could have seen Nancy. But again, like you pointed out,
it's like Lacy Peterson, Nancy was well known in the community,
and no one that knew Nancy saw Nancy. People that
didn't know Nancy said, well, I saw a woman that

(48:23):
looked like Nancy.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
Yeah, and it's sound like the other possible suspect, the
guy that she apparently had a fling with, he had
an alibi as well, right, and they checked that out,
so it's not like they ignored it.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yeah, and I forgot to mention it. But he had
the morning of July twelfth, he was with his children,
but the night before he was with the woman that
Brad had the affair with, Heather Mature.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
So John Pearson that was his name, right, the guy
that Nancy had a fling with allegedly, Yeah, he was
with Heather. He was with Heather in a romantic way
or just they happened.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
To Oh I think it was a well romantic way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Wow. The town of Carrie, North Carolina, is just a
hotbed of stuff going.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
On, right exactly, And you could question what the motive was.
It seems pretty clear, but Brad really had no history
of physical violence. But we've seen that before too in short,
the reasonable doubt arose from the lack of direct evidence,
questionable digital evidence, potential police misconduct, and plausible alternative explanations.

(49:30):
Even though Brad was convicted in twenty eleven, these lingering
doubts are part of why some still believe that he
may have been wrongfully convicted.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
This case is very similar to the case I am
currently working out that we are going to record after
we get back from vacation. But to me, you know,
the bottom line is you can have a circumstantial case
that doesn't have direct forensic evidence tying someone to the
crime scene or the victim and still have a strong case.
And to me, this still seems like a strong case.

(49:58):
But I know you're going to go over.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
Let's go over the inculpatory evidence real quick. So remember
that Nancy's blood alcohol level was point zero six, which
to me seems like it's too high for her to
wake them and say, yeah, I'm going to go for
a run today. And Brad did lie about her going
for a run with her friend. The cleaning of his
trunk and certain areas of the house was a little suspicious. Yeah,

(50:21):
her sports prop pulled up over her breast to me,
seemed like he was trying to dress her and just
kind of gave up. Right, He was very controlling in
a lot of ways. He washed Nancy's dress. The Google
map search, if you're to believe that he actually did
it Google map search, to me, is a little suspect
because he only did it for like forty five seconds.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
How long would you need to do a search like that, really?

Speaker 1 (50:47):
I mean, yeah, maybe I would think it would take
a few minutes to zero in on the area. Yeah,
maybe Brad didn't really cooperate with the investigation. And Nancy's
shoes were the house where she had two pairs of shoes.
The case, in my opinion, hate hinges on whether or
not Nancy went for a run, and again, in my opinion,

(51:09):
I don't think that she went for a run. Again,
to me, the most damning pieces of evidence are her
blood alcohol level and the two pairs of shoes that
were at her house.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Well and the fact that Brad said she went for
a run with Carrie and Carrie said no, I never
went for a run.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
Like they maybe could have gotten their wires crossed. I mean,
they weren't getting a lawng grade. It's not they had
you know, these huge conversations every morning. Well, tell me
what you have planned for today, you know, probably terse
you know, right on the knee to.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
Know basis, Yeah, I suppose so.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Brad's appeal argued that he had not received a fair trial,
primarily because the judge excluded key defense witnesses who could
have testified about the possibility that his laptop had been
tampered with. The defense suggested that the incriminated Google searches
could have been planted, potentially by law enforcement, the FBI,
or even a former vindictive lover. Expert witness testimony supporting

(52:06):
this theory was not permitted by the judge during the trial.
In April twenty thirteen, oral arguments were heard by a
three judge panel to grant Brad Cooper a new trial.
Five months later, the appellate court released their ruling. Their
decision read quote. The Google Maps files recovered from the
defendant's laptop were perhaps the most important evidence admitted in

(52:28):
this trial. We hold that the court abused its discretion
in excluding Ward from testifying. That's the person who is
going to testify, relying on the state's own evidence to
his opinion that the Google Maps files recovered from the
defendant's laptop had been tampered with. By unanimous decision, his
conviction was overturned and Brad was granted a new trial

(52:49):
based on Judge Guestner's limiting expert testimony in the first trial.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Oh well, as much as I believe that Brad is guilty,
I can't disagree with that. Like if he didn't allow
an expert witness to refute the most important evidence in
the trial, that seems wrong.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
I agree completely. You know when an expert witness will
get on the stand sometimes and they'll go over their
resume and then the judge can decide whether they're an
expert or not. In this case, the judge didn't allow that.
On January thirtieth, twenty fourteen, five and a half years
after Nancy's murder, Brad once again appeared in a Wake

(53:25):
County courtroom at a pre trial hearing, looking softer, grayer
and balding. On September eighth, as a new trial was
set to begin, Brad Cooper pleaded guilty to second to murder.
What he would serve twelve to fifteen years, including time served,
and give up parental rights to his honors permanently.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
I am shocked.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
Yeah, the Rentz family was okay with the plea deal
if it meant that Brad would accept responsibility and Bella
and Katie could finally be legally adopted by Krista and Jim.
Judge Gessner asked Brad, quote, do you personally plead guilty
to the charge that I have doned? Brad replied yes,
Did you in fact kill Nancy Cooper and dump her

(54:05):
body on Fielding Drive? Brad paused yes, The judge said,
in reference to Brad allowing his children to be adopted
by Krista and Jim in return for a shorter sentence,
It just bothers me that you have an individual who
will apparently bargain away their rights as a parent. I
find that repulsive.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
That is pretty repulsive.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
I'm just glad that the girls could finally be adopted
and be done with Brad and move on with their lives.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
Nancy was a loving mother, daughter, sister, and twin. She
was a runner and a coach. She loved to help
others meet their fitness goals. She made friends wherever she went.
Her superpower was her ability to make other people laugh, smile,
and feel comfortable. Rest in Peace Nancy. After Nancy's death,
many of her friends and family in Canada and the
US began noticing butterflies. They were removed to start a

(54:55):
foundation called a Butterfly Fund, helping other women in dangerous
or volatile marria. They organized a gala and a run
in Nancy's honor in hopes of saving other women. The
fund is no longer active. There is another organization in
the community called Interact of Wake County. We will donate
to in honor of Michelle Young and Nancy Cooper. In

(55:16):
November twenty twenty, twelve years after Nancy's death, Brad Cooper
was released from Mountain View Correctional Facility in Spruce Behind,
North Carolina. He was deported back to Canada. Wow, not shocking.
I'm going to end with the words of Amanda Lamb,
who wrote my main source for this case, Love Lies,
a true story of marriage and murder in the suburbs.

(55:37):
Happy was definitely not the word to describe the ending
to this story. It's a cautionary tale, a tragic tale,
a tale that leaves more questions than answers. It's a
trail of broken hearts and a litany of secrets. Only
two people know the truth. One is dead and the
other won't gamble his silence for freedom.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
It is a really tragic tale, and I'm not so
sure that justice was served in the case with the
amount of time that he spent in prison.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Twelve years.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
Yeah, it's really not enough.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
There are no winners when it comes to domestic violence.
Even when a victim finds the strength to leave, the
emotional and psychological scars remain, often lasting a lifetime, not
just for them, but for their children as well. We
need to do more to educate people about the warning
signs early on, before control becomes abuse and love turns
to fear. Too often, innocence is lost and childhoods are

(56:26):
stolen in the silence. Awareness is the first step towards prevention.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
Very well said, do.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
You believe that Brad is guilty?

Speaker 2 (56:34):
I do, yes, Yes.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Do you think that he served enough time?

Speaker 2 (56:38):
No? Absolutely not. I mean that was the no, I
mean yeah, that was the deal that he got though, right,
it was he was released because he served the time
that he agreed they both agreed to. Yeah, but not enough.
What do you think was the motivation for the prosecution
to make the deal? I mean, I kind of know
Brad's motivation for taking the deal because he had been
found guilty once before and he probably expected to be

(57:00):
found guilty again. But why do you think the prosecution
offered that.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
I think their primary objective was if he was willing
to admit guilt and Bella and Katie would be able
to be adopted and move on with their life. Yeah,
that was their objective, right, and.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
That makes sense. But I also have to wonder if
they felt like their case wasn't as strong as it
needed to be a lot of times when it was
not a slam dunk. Yeah, so they were probably a
little bit worried that they wouldn't win.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
I almost forgot. We have a clip of Krista talking
about the girls. Do you want to play that real quick?

Speaker 3 (57:33):
They're doing good. They they know, they know what happened.
But with Nancy Bella especially, and it destroyed her for
many years and she's she's gotten over it, she's moved
past thankfully. I've got amazing family to help and they

(57:59):
got through it.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Does this mean now that their dads out of their
lives forever?

Speaker 3 (58:03):
Yes, it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
It's total relief.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
He doesn't deserve them, he doesn't deserve to know them.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
I'm going to get emotional talking about this, but there
was a beauty to Christa ending up with her sister's
kids when she couldn't have kids, and being her identical twin.
I just thought that was, you know, as sad as
it is, it's really lovely that they were raised by
their aunts.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
It is a little bit of like poetic justice in
some ways. Do we know? What do you know when
that clip was from? It sounds like it was from.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
I think it was from years ago. I did see
pictures of the girls, and all I'm going to say
is they're stunning, and they seem happy, healthy, and they
both seem to be very athletic like their mom.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Yeah, it's how old are they at this point?

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Their college age? It seemed like there was a lot
of activity in the neighborhood that the Coopers lived in.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
What do you mean by activity.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Since this case? And I don't know if it has
anything to do with affairs, but I think at least
two of the friends that Nancy had have divorced as well.
It just seemed like there was a lot of affairs
going on, a lot of people sleeping together.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
Yeah, it seems like that, and the fact that you
pointed out the guy that Nancy apparently had a fling
with was seeing the woman that Brad had a fling
with too. It's just, yeah, it's a lot going on there.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
Yeah. Absolutely, Well, I'm slamming my laptop shot and we
are officially on vacation. You have another day at work, but.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Yeah, pretty close. I am very excited about that.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
I am wondering how being a true crime podcaster has
changed you. Do you look at people's relationships differently.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
I don't know if I look at people's relationships differently,
but I do think about the possibilities of occurring, Yeah,
in relationships more than I used to. I think I'm
more aware of the potential of violence and things like that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Yeah, I agree, that's what I feel. The same way.
Like all these unassuming guys that just seem like normal
guys that you work with or whatever. That they're capable
of killing their wives is kind of shocking to me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Yeah, it really.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
It's not like it's common, but we make it seem
like it's common because we tell a story every week.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
I mean, it's common enough. It's more common than it
should be, for sure. But yeah, part of it is,
I think because we talk about it so much, we're
you know, it's like when you see a yellow car,
then all of a sudden, you start seeing yellow cars everywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
Right, Well, I hope we play the yellow car.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Game, Banana. That's great.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
We used to do when our kids are little. Now
it really anoys them, but once in a while, randomly
when we're driving, Elsie Banana.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
I think. The other thing for me is I have
become a little desensitized to things that should really disturb me.
They still disturb me, but I'm less inclined to.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Get like humans are capable of really horrible behavior.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Yeah, it really is. And there was I was looking
at a there's a book. It's like I can'mer what
it's called, but it's like the it's like the police
Manual for homicide Investigation. It's like the most well respected manual.
And I happened to download it because I wanted to
look up at a couple of things about police procedure
and things like that. And there are the most horrible
photos in this book. And yeah, they disturbed me, but

(01:01:31):
they didn't. It wasn't as disturbing as it should have
been to me. And that bothered me actually, that I
was like, oh, this should really be like I should
be putting this book down and not looking at this
because it was not good.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
I still tried carefully. I don't like to see autopsy
photos or crime scene photos. Yeah, I think they're still
pretty disturbing to me. I'm a pretty humble person. But
last night I had a personal win that I want
to share with everyone. I had my three hundred Peloton hide.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Wow. Three hundred that's really good.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty happy. But it's not as
impressive as it sounds, honestly, because a lot of times
I'll do two rides and some of them are like
five minute cool down rides.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
I think it's impressied.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
Yeah, I was really happy, and I beat my record
by like sixteen points, which almost literally killed me. But
I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. But
if you're thinking about getting a peloton, this is not
an ad I wish it were. But I've had a
lot of fun with it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
Yeah, I have not a lot of fun with.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
It, but it's a great way to work out.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
I've not been quite as diligent as you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Even nowhere near as diligent.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
As but I think I'm about halfway, maybe not quite.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Yeah, but you're you're yeah, Yeah, I'm trying.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
But I enjoy it. I really do like it. I
just need to like make time for it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Yeah, if you have any questions about it, feel free
to ask us. But yeah, that was I think. I
am twenty six weeks in a row of working out
three or more days, so that also is like kind
of a big deal for me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Yeah, I'm using congratulations, thank you. I am also a
humble person. I am the most humble person that you
would probably have ever met.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
We all know that. I just want to ask, Well,
it's funny because you'd like to tell us all how
intelligent you are all the time. And that is a
characteristic of a lot of men who murder. Is you know,
men that think they're very smart and they can outsmart
the police. And I know you well enough to know
that you think about things like this all the time,

(01:03:24):
and you were pretty sure that you could get away
with the perfect murder.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
I could totally I am joking. I know I'm not.
That's not the case at all. I don't like to
talk about how smart I am. You're the one who
always brings.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
It up because I like to roast you and I
try to keep you home.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
You certainly do.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
I'm sorry I forgot to mention this when we were
talking about the case and we try to end on
something that is not the case. But I did want to.
I mentioned this my Amanda Lamb source, but there was
another source that I read. I didn't read the whole thing.
I couldn't get through much of it because it was
so one sided. Framed and examination of the Nancy Cooper
murder case by Lynn Blanchard. She also wrote a book

(01:04:06):
about Michelle Young that was very similar. She defended Jason
Young and in her book she also defends Brad Cooper.
So I think she must have lived in the area
and she was just really consumed with these cases. But
it was so one sided. It just kind of.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Drives me crazy. Yeah, some people just want they just
want to take a contrary view and be well contra I.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
Think she believes what she's saying, really, but.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Yeah, just hard to imagine believing that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
But well, thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Yes, thank you very much. We appreciate each and every
one of you. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find
us on social media and YouTube, or send us an
email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. Please consider supporting
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and a monthly bonus episode until next time.

Speaker 4 (01:04:59):
Don't Kill your Wife and Don't Kill Your Husband.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
In November twenty twenty, twelve years after Nancy's murder, Rad
Cooper was released from Mountain Dew, Mountain yah it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
That was good.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
That's funny.