Nancy and Robert Kissel - Part 1 - Love Marry Kill

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. If there's one thing
we've learned and over twenty years of marriage, it's.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
That some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Welcome to love, Mary kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm fabulous? How are you?

Speaker 1 (00:32):
You are not fabulous? Someone is a little grumpy.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Today, a little grumpy.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
And I don't know why. You're just always so even.
You are literally the most even tempered person in the universe.
And it's just kind of cute when you're grumpy. I
don't know why you're.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Laughing at my grumpiness, wow.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Just because it's so atypical. You don't like mean grumpy.
You're just kind of like, I'm grumpy, and I don't
know why.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
I would say I'm irritable. Yeah, okay, I'm a little
irritable today.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Everyone has off days. You don't have money. I should
write it on my calendar. I think you literally have
like one and a half grumpy days and here and
that's about it.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
I think a little more than that.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
No, you're you're very pleasant, not not like your wife.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
You're pleasant.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
The audience. You just roll up Designsam me, how dare
you sorry?

Speaker 2 (01:22):
That's my irritability show.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Do you want to tell us why you're grumpy?

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Oh, there's there's a multitude of reasons.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Tick one.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
While the Tigers, that's one. Stupid Detroit Tigers lost their
game to the Cleveland Guardians today and they're probably gonna
lose tomorrow. Chance have a chance tomorrow. Yeah, but they're
just they look terrible.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
I'm sorry. Okay, did you put money on them at
the beginning of the season.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
No, I should have. No, I shouldn't have. I guess
I'm glad I didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Actually, I learned a new term yesterday when I was
listening to a different podcast. I've never heard this term before.
But we're really, really, really really bad at this as
demonstrated by the conversation that we just had about the
Tigers called evergreen. Do you know what that means?

Speaker 2 (02:06):
The tree kind of a tree.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
It's content that the remains relevant, fresh, and popular over
an extended period, regardless of changing trends onlike content that
fades quickly after a viral moment or current event.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
I think the Tigers will continue to be bad on
an evergreens basis.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Well, the seasons could be over.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
I know what you're saying. You know, it makes that
makes sense where we are not good.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
At that moving on. Today's case has some sibling rivalry
in it, and I'm wondering we both have several siblings,
and I'm wondering if you have ever felt a sibling rivalry.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
I don't think there was a lot.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
You're the youngest of four.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
So we had, you know, I had two older brothers
and then they were you know, of a particular age,
and then there was a gap, and then there was
my sister and I, and so I always felt like
my sister and I were closer, you know, in age,
but we didn't have I wouldn't say we had a
lot of rivalry.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Now it cracks me because you, you know, I always
say how nice you are. You are really nice person,
but you are kind of a brady little brother to
your sister, and it cracks me up. Like the other day,
I was texting with your sister and you said, I
can't remember what you said, but it was.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
I suggested that maybe my sister was responsible for breaking
up Keith and Nicole Kivgan's marriage.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Well, probably giving more details than your sister would like
us to give. But she's always had a crush on
Keith Urban and when his marriage ended, yeah, we were like, hmmm, yeah,
you know what I think about this, But yeah, you
guys get along pretty well, and uh, how about you.
I don't really feel so. I'm the second oldest of four,
so kind of like your family too. There was kind

(03:41):
of like the too older and then there was a
gap and then there's two younger, and yeah, I would
say the two younger are probably you know, they have
more in common. And yeah, yeah, I don't think there's
a lot of sibling rivalry, but there is in this case.
In part one, we're going to focus on one brother
and in part two we're going to focus a little
bit more on the other brother, but they did have

(04:02):
a lot of sibling rivalry. We're recording on October first,
which is our official birthday for love Mary Cale. We
mentioned this on the last episode. The only reason I'm
mentioning it today is because I wanted to say thank
you to everyone who wished us well and you know,
congratulate us and just the support has been really overwhelming.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
We appreciate it, we do.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
And I did bring you a snack much if you're
going to love this.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
You're really hungry, Okay, I'm irritable, so don't do this
is better be good.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
I think September was the warmest September I ever remember
here in Michigan. What do you think?

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yes, for sure, we've.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Been craving fall things, but it's still been really warm.
We're both still wearing shorts and wearing white shorts because
I'm a rebel, like if it's eighty degrees, I should
still be able to wear white, right.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Anyway, I made you Sally's apple spiced apple bread. Okay,
our friend Teresa recommended it. I think you're going to
like it. I'm not sure if you're going to love it.
I didn't use all of you don't love spice like
this right and stuff like that, But yeah, I used
mostly cinnamon. I did use a little nutmeg, but I
didn't use the annis and the other things. So, and

(05:11):
it's got some icing on the top, like a reduced
apple cider, and you add some talking and sugar. All right,
what did you think of Sally's Spiced apple bread.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
It was pretty good. There was definitely a little I'm
glad you made the changes you did because it was
borderline on the spice.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
You probably should not have added the nutmeg.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, but it was.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
It was.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
I didn't mind it too much. I didn't love the
walnuts in.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
It, So that was met Sally.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Okay, well you improved on one hand and you Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
I really like to add nods to any kind of
quick bread. But yeah, I'm sorry, Okay. The rest by myself, No, it.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Was pretty good. I would give it like a six
out of ten. Six point five.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Wow. I think i'd given an eight out of ten
and maybe a nine out of ten tomorrow. I think
it's one of those recipes that'll probably be better tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Are you ready to dive into the case. I am, well,
are you buckled in because this is a wild ride.
I am buckled in before we start. I do want
to give a special thank you to everyone who has
supported the new version of Love Mary Kill to just
the fact version we've had really good feedback. It seems
like people are really really enjoying that. Yeah, so thank
you so much for your support. In November two thousand

(06:25):
and three, Nancy Kissel, thirty nine, called her father, Ira Keishan, sixty,
at his home in Chicago. Nancy, her husband Rob and
their three children lived in Hong Kong. Her chest heaved
with intense sobs, she could barely get the words out.
She told her father that Rob forty, her husband of
fourteen years, had beaten her severely, even breaking several of

(06:46):
her ribs, after she had refused him sex. But that
was three days ago, and she hadn't seen him since.
He hadn't showed up at his job at Merrill Lynch either,
and that wasn't like him. His job was his life.
Nancy didn't know what to do. Ira was confused. He
didn't know his son in law to be a violent man.
He thought of him like a son. As far as

(07:07):
he knew. He'd never been abusive to Nancy before Ira
booked the next flight to Hong Kong and rushed to
O'Hare Airport the morning after Ibra arrived in Hong Kong.
He took Nancy to file a police report against Rob
for assault, as well as a missing person's report. Nancy
was told that she needed to go to the hospital
to be examined by a doctor to confirm her injuries

(07:29):
before she could file the report. When they arrived at
the hospital, there were several people queued before Nancy. She
was not a person who liked to wait. After two hours,
she grew impatient and they left the hospital. Nancy dropped
Ira off at his hotel before she headed back to
her apartment. At eleven pm that night, she awoke her
father again with another frantic phone call. Come over right away,

(07:53):
she screamed under the phone. The police are here, so
many police. Robert Peter Kissel was born in nineteen sien
sixty three in New York City to parents Elaine and William.
Rob grew up in Montvale, New Jersey, in an upscale,
family friendly neighborhood. Bill Kissel, his father, graduated from Case
Western Reserve University with a degree in chemistry in nineteen

(08:14):
fifty one. He became very successful after he started a company,
Sinfax that manufactured dry toner cartridges, beating Xerox at their
own game. He was all business, all the time and ruthless.
His wife, Eileen, was gentle, soft and warm, a stark
contrast to his brusque personality. Elaine was the heart of

(08:35):
the family, often stepping in to rain and Bill whenever
he was overly harsh, a role she assumed more often
than not.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
You gotta be ruthless in the printer toner game. It's
a cutthroat business.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
It does sound really impressive though, right, Like he developed
this toner before Xerox did. He must have been, I
mean super wealthy.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Together they had three children, Andrew in nineteen fifty nine,
Robert or Rob in nineteen sixty three, and Jane in
nineteen sixty eight. As the Kissel's fortune grew, they moved
from the modest town of Woodcliffe Lake to a seven
thy five hundred square foot mansion on two acres of
land and the Upper Saddle River. Richard Nixon was a neighbor.

(09:17):
On Halloween, Richard Nixon would pass out candy to the
kids from his gate. That must be kind of a
crazy childhood in wild The Kissels accumulated all the trappings
of great wealth, a beautiful family home, a fleet of cars,
a yacht, and a million dollar vacation home in Vermont
on Stratton Mountain. Bill worked long hours, driven by relentless

(09:39):
need to succeed, to crush and dominate his competition. For
him and for his family, Failure simply wasn't an option,
especially for his sons. Andy pushed back, rejecting the heavy
mantle his father tried to drape over him. He wanted
to do things his own way. When he was just nineteen,
Andrew started his own auto parts business in part to

(10:01):
avoid going to college. But Rob rose to meet his
father's challenge. He carried the same fire, the same competitive edge,
the same primal instincts that fueled his father. His grades
weren't quite good enough for an ivy, but he settled
for the University of Rochester and majored in engineering. He
graduated in nineteen eighty six and set his sights on

(10:22):
the world of finance, where he knew he could make
more money. Rob worked for Sinfax with his father for
a year before he enrolled at NYU's Stern School of Business.
After Eileen's death in nineteen eighty nine, the Kissel family
gatherings became almost unbearable, riddle affairs laced with caustic remarks
and simmering rivalries, often inflamed by alcohol and other substances. Bill,

(10:46):
the domineering patriarch, was relentless in his expectations, driving his
children with the belief that power and success were the
only measure of worth, and in his eyes, success was
defined not by happiness, integrity, or person fulfillment, but by money,
lots of it. Jane, who many called the most sensible
of the Kissels, bowed out of the family drama and

(11:07):
moved across the country to Washington State with her new husband, Richard.
Rob's high school sweetheart, Carol Horton, remembered her time with
him fondly. She told Forty eight Hours that he was
the best looking guy in their class, sweet, gregarious, loving,
and such a good guy. She said, I am so
blessed for his life to have touched mine as it did.

(11:29):
Whatever Rob did, he did well. Carol said that Rob
and Andrew were like night and day. Rob's childhood friend
Danny Williams, said that whenever they played monopoly, Rob was
always the banker, and Andrew held the property deeds roles
that would define them later in life.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
That's funny, and we'll.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Talk about Andrew more later, but I'm sure that he
definitely cheated monopoly. Competition between the brothers was steep. Even
though Rob was four years younger, it was Andrew who
had to work hard to keep up with his brother.
Rob was the smarter, more athletic, and better looking of
the brothers. Andrew lacked the charisma that came natural to Rob.
He spent much of his life trying to measure up

(12:09):
to his brother, but always fell short. Literally, one brother
was all about hard work and the other shortcuts. I
know it sounds like I being a little mean to
Andrew here, but just wait, okay. Nancy Anne Keishan was
born in nineteen sixty four in Adrian, Michigan, to Jean
and Ira Kishan. I always have to find a way
to mention Michigan in every episode. It's kind of like

(12:31):
an Easter eggus. Jean Stark met Ira Kishan at Grinnell
College in Iowa. Jeane came from a wealthy Cincinnati family
that owned and operated Lazarus Department Stores, founded in eighteen
fifty one. Her ancestor, Fred Lazarus Junior, was even credited
with convincing President Franklin Roosevelt to permanently fix Thanksgiving to

(12:53):
the fourth Thursday of November, ensuring a clear and set
start to the holiday shopping season. Lazarus was eventually absorbed
into Macy's in two thousand and five. Jane was a
freshman when she became pregnant by Ira, a sophomore in
October nineteen sixty one. They quickly married. Trudy was the eldest,
followed by Nancy two years later. My main source for

(13:16):
this case was a book written by Joe McGinnis we'll
talk about that at the end, called Never Enough, and
he used pseudonyms, and there was not a lot of
information about Nancy's sister. He called her Laura. I believe
her name was Trudy. It's possible that I have that wrong.
Ira transferred to Michigan State University and earned a degree

(13:37):
in restaurant and hotel management. After graduation, the couple moved
to Cincinnati, where Ira began working in Jean's family business,
focusing on revitalizing the department stores, seventy eight restaurants, and
thirty two employee cafeterias. He later purchased the historic Cincinnati restaurant,
The Real Cafe. In nineteen seventy five, Jane and Ira

(13:58):
divorced a year later. He remarried in nineteen seventy eight
to a woman named Joyce Jenkins. Irish sold his restaurant,
The Wheal Cafe, and moved to Minneapolis and became concessions
manager to the new Hubert h. Humphrey Metrodome. Jean and
her daughters moved to Piedmont, California, near Berkeley, and adopted
a hippie lifestyle, eschewing her family's wealth and status, but

(14:22):
she was ill equipped to support herself and the girls,
losing countless jobs. She lacked the talent to support her
family as an artist, her preferred career. Like their mother,
Trudy and Nancy drifted through those years without direction, experimenting
with drugs and sex. It was the sixties, after all.
Trudy eventually moved out and married, while Nancy dabbled in

(14:43):
art classes but never had the discipline to pursue a
degree or develop her own portfolio. Nancy was strikingly beautiful,
charming when it suited her, but often ill tempered and spoiled.
She was accustomed to getting her way, and if she didn't,
she simply walked away. She suggested that Nancy might be
happier in a fresh environment and encouraged her to move

(15:04):
to Minnesota to live with her father, his new wife,
and her five year old brother Brooks. After suffering through
a cold winter at the University of Minnesota, Nancy twenty
transferred to the Parsons School of Design in New York
in the fall of nineteen eighty four, she felt that
she'd found her people among the like minded, artistic, beautiful,
and fashionable New Yorkers. After a year, she dropped out

(15:28):
and waitressed at a series of bars and restaurants. Without
even trying. She landed a small role in Whole Metal
Jacket and then a small role in a soap opera.
Nancy was driven those years by a heady mix of overconfidence, youth,
and drugs.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Do you know what her role in Full Metal Jacket was?
That's such a gad movie.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, it's not credited, so it might just be someone
you know.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
In Watch the movie and find her.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
I don't know if I'd be able to recognize her.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
So. In the summer of nineteen eighty seven, before he
began graduate school, Rob Kissel and his friend and Mike
Paradise took a trip to Turks and Caicos. They stayed
at a resort called Turquoise. Nancy Keishan and her friend
Ali Gertz were also staying at the resort. Nancy was petite, blonde, flashy,
and feisty. When Nancy and Rob met on a nude beach.

(16:15):
There was an instant attraction. I bet you'd look great
with clothes on, he said, It's really funny. They were
immediately smitten with each other. Rob was attracted to Nancy's
cool New York attitude, and she was attracted to his
earning potential.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
I'm a little mean to Nancy in this case took
Rob was a very good looking guy, and I think
she was attracted to him, but I think she did
like the fact that he was an investment banker.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Got it. By the time they returned to New York
from vacation, Rob and Nancy were exclusively dating. A year later,
Rob proposed and the couple moved in together. Bill Rob's
father openly disapproved of Nancy, dismissing her for not having
a degree from an Ivy League school and derisively referring
to her as that waitress. Despite his disapproval, Rob and

(17:03):
Nancy married in September nineteen eighty nine, Andrew, Rob's older brother,
married Hailey Wolf, a beautiful Ivy League educated former competitive
skier with a promising career of her own as a
financial analyst. She often appeared on CNBC giving stock tips.
Coming from a wealthy and accomplished family. She earned Bill
Kissel's respect and attention. Unlike Nancy, the former waitress. Marrying

(17:27):
Haley was one way for Andrew to won up his brother.
He was clearly punching above his weight.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
He really was. For some reasons, skiing was really important
to the Kissels, and the fact that Haley was this
great skier really made Bill happy.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Skiing is important to like wealthy peoples a lot of times.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah we are not skiers, and no we're not. But
Haley was Jane's ski coach for a while. That's how
they met.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
Ali Gertz, Nancy's best friend and maid of honor, later
became a fearless advocate for her AIDS awareness after being
diagnosed at just twenty two. Ali was beautiful and came
from a wealthy family. She became a face of the
AIDS epidemic, interviewed by Barbara Walters, featured on the cover
of People, and named Woman of the Year by Esquire.

(18:15):
She contracted the disease after her very first sexual encounter
at sixteen, a one night stand. Determined that others learned
from her story, Ali lectured people that anyone could contract
AIDS if they had unprotected sex. She founded Love Heels,
an organization dedicated to educating young people and supporting those
abandoned by their families. Her story was later told in

(18:38):
a TV movie starring Molly Ringwold. Ali passed away in
nineteen ninety two at the age of twenty six.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
I watched a brief documentary about Ali on YouTube, and
she's very inspiring. It's just such a sad, tragic story.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah. But at Nancy's nineteen eighty nine wedding, when Ali
casually mentioned the multitude of pills she had to remember
to take, Nancy lashed out at her. Just shut up, Alli,
this is my day. Nobody wants to hear about your
fucking pills. Seems a little harsh.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
The wedding and reception were held at the East River
Yacht Club. Nancy and Rob made a striking couple, and
by all accounts, the celebration was beautiful, but Nancy would
later complain that Ali had ruined her day by stealing
her spotlight. Guests were drawn to the courageous young woman,
eager to hear her story and to offer her compassion.
We'll be back after a break.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
While Rob finished business school at NYU, Nancy supported them financially.
After graduation, Rob worked at an old school investment bank
where he specialized in distressed debt also called volture investing.
Distressed debt investing is a way to profit from failure
rather than success. The strategy works by buying the bonds

(19:57):
of a bankrupt or a failing company for honeys on
the dollar, then using that position to influence or force
a reorganization. Instead of taking repayment in cash, investors exchange
their bonds for shares in the newly reorganized company. If
the turnaround succeeds, the stock value can skyrocket, multiplying their

(20:18):
initial investment many times over. For those who play it well,
the rewards can be enormous. I have to caution everyone,
I am not an economist, and writing this with a
little tricky because sometimes I'm like, I think this is right,
but you know it's it's tricky. There's a lot of financial.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, I am also not an expert in the stock They're.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Way closer than I am. But did that make sense
to you?

Speaker 2 (20:43):
More or less?

Speaker 1 (20:43):
What's that one? The Wolf of Rall Street. Isn't that
similar to what they did? Like buying like.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Penny stocks penny stocks. Yeahkay.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Investment bankers work punishingly long hours in a cutthroat, highly
competitive environment. Their job is to literally make money at
any cost to their personal life and well being. Rob,
who was putting in one hundred hours a week at
the office, said to friends, what good does it do
to make ten million a year when the guy down
the hall is making twenty? When the Asian markets closed,

(21:12):
the New York markets opened, and the cycle began again.
There was no pause, no rest, no chance to breathe.
If you were resting, you weren't making money.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Does not sound like a lifestyle I would enjoy. No.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
Nancy and Rob lived in the Upper West Side of
Manhattan in a small apartment. I looked up their old
apartment building, and today I think they have two different
floor plans. Nine hundred and fifty six square feet and
the rent is eighty three hundred and fifty dollars a month,
and for a sixteen hundred square foot apartment the rent
is thirteen nine hundred and fifty dollars. After their first

(21:48):
child was born, Elaine, they needed more space and moved
to Greenwich Village. Nancy loved her baby, but she hadn't
grown up with the best parenting role model. Even with
friends and family, Nancy struggled to formed deep, lasting connections,
and motherhood was no different. She found it difficult to
shoulder the full weight of responsibility for another human being's life,

(22:09):
and it was mundane. Nancy craved more excitement. In New
York City. She quickly realized many mothers weren't the ones
pushing the strollers to the park. Instead, they hired nannies
to take their place. In the late nineteen eighties, Hong
Kong was a magnet for ambitious bankers like Rob Kissel.
The world of finance was coming to understand the benefits
of the global marketplace. Hong Kong had just been handed

(22:32):
back to China, but its identity as a global financial
hub was only growing stronger. Skyscrapers glittered over Victoria Harbor,
filled with foreign banks and investment firms eager to tap
into Asia's exploding markets. It was the gateway to China,
an economy just beginning to open up to the world,
and Hong Kong offered a unique blend of East and West,

(22:54):
with low taxes, minimal regulation, and a promise of enormous profits.
Even the turbulence of the Asian financial crisis in nineteen
ninety seven and ninety eight didn't diminish its allure. If anything,
the volatility created opportunities for those willing to take risks.
For rob moving to Hong Kong meant being at the

(23:14):
center of fast moving money and high stake steals. For Nancy,
it meant a glamorous new life in one of the
world's most cosmopolitan cities, with a vivacious expatriate community who
lived in luxury high rises, employed living domestic help, and
sent their children to impressive international schools. Hong Kong wasn't
just a career move. It was an adventure, and for

(23:36):
a young family like the Kissels, it promised the best
of everything. The Chinese government allowed Hong Kong's rampant capitalism
to flourish without feeling as though they were desecrating Mao's
legacy of strict control. Daily life was fast paced and crowded,
filled with neon signs, dim sum houses, and a thriving
pop culture scene led by Hong Kong cinema and cantopop.

(24:00):
Overpopulation of Hong Kong has led to extreme air pollution
that peaked in early two thousand it has improved, but
PM two point five and PM ten remain nearly three
times the level recommended by the WHO. PM means particulate matter,
and there's different kinds of particulate matter. Actually, today I

(24:20):
was looking at like a geographical map of the entire world,
and I guess I didn't realize that Asia is really
very polluted. Like if you look at you know, like
Europe and the United States and Canada, and they're all green,
but most of Asia is, you know, still suffering from
severe air pollution.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, that's too bad.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Hong Kong is one of the most densely populated places
on Earth, with an average of about seventeen four hundred
people per square mile, higher than cities like New York
or London. In some districts. In Kowloon, for example, that
number source to over three hundred and ten thousand people
per square mile, making daily life feel compressed into high

(25:03):
rise towers and crowded streets. Even compared to Manhattan, which
has around seventy thousand people per square mile. Hong Kong's
density is staggering and shapes nearly every aspect of life,
from housing to transportation to access to open space.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
I can't even imagine.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
What do you think our population density it was if.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
You have it twelve people per square mile or something
like that.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
It's more than that, but it is kind of shocking. Yes,
I'm sorry that I went on so long about Hong Kong,
but I think it's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Well, I think it's interesting too, and I think it
paints a really good picture of what their life must
have been.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
Right, and just the culture shock from going to you know,
they lived in well, they did live in New York City,
but they also had a place in Vermont. But yeah,
I don't think it even compared. No, because the population
density is so high. There are no houses like flat houses.
You know, everything is built upright, And to me, that's
just so hard to picture. It would have been to

(25:56):
cities before, but here, you know, everyone has a house, right,
It's just very different.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
In the nineteen nineties, Goldman Sachs was the number one
investment bank in the world. When Rob Kissel was offered
a job in Hong Kong, he jumped at the chance
to get in on the emerging market. They only send winners.
This means I'm on the fast track to make partner.
Hong Kong is the key to the mint. He told
his friends. His ultimate dream was to make partner at Goldman,

(26:23):
and moving to Asia increased his odds dramatically. Just give
me three years. Rob pleaded with Nancy and moving to
Hong Kong had the added bonus of bowing out of
the Kissel family drama for a few years. In June
nineteen ninety seven, the Kissel settled into Park View, a
thirty five hundred square foot luxury apartment costing twenty thousand
dollars a month. The complex was home to many wealthy expatriots,

(26:47):
offering both comfort and status, but the move came at
a turbulent time. Just weeks before Britain handed Hong Kong
back to China, tensions in the city were running high,
and when the Asian currency crisis struck soon after, Rob
saw not only risk but opportunity. Park was more like
a vacation resort, with its abundance of amenities including luxury hotel,

(27:09):
eight dining options, multiple tennis and squash courts, three swimming pools,
and even two driving ranges. Residents had access to a
three story health club staffed with trainers and nutritionists, along
with a preschool, children's playground and daily supervised kids' activities.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
But did they have a pickleball court?

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Well, I don't even know what squash is. Cultural and
leisure offerings included a theater, art gallery, beauty salon, supermarket,
landscaped formal gardens, and a lifestyle shop selling everything from
paperweights to silk slippers embroidered with the Parkview logo. There
was even a Roman path. So the complex was composed

(27:49):
of eighteen towers, which were filled with investment bankers, attorneys
and other high powered executives. The Kissels lived in Tower sixteen.
There was a hierarchy to the tower. Well, sixteen was
a fine tower. The most successful, most affluent people lived
in towers seventeen and eighteen. If someone was floundering and
not making their numbers, they'd be forced to move to

(28:11):
a lower numbered tower.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
But I just can't even imagine this life style, right.
The Kissels hired to live in Nanny Connie and housekeeper
men who were cousins. Nancy was left with little to do.
Rob worked sixteen hours most days and traveled frequently across Asia.
The Kissels joined the United Jewish Congregation and the yacht club,
but Nancy grew bored and lonely. Though she lived a

(28:34):
life of luxury with her favorite designer shops just fifteen
minutes away, she was too afraid to drive the busy
streets in Hong Kong at first. Eventually she navigated the
tangled highways and traffic, immersing herself in the shopping and
spending that gave her the most joy.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
I don't like to drive it at our. Can you
imagine driving in Hong Kong?

Speaker 2 (28:54):
No, I can't. I avoid driving in any foreign country
that I can help it, but Hong Kong. She would
be bananas. To outsiders, The couple seemed enviable, a perfect
and polished image whenever they stepped out together, but behind
closed doors their apartment was filled with rage and disappointment.
About a year into their Hong Kong residency, Nancy's mother, Jean,

(29:16):
came for a visit. Jean had recently lost half a
lung to cancer and was still frail from the surgery.
When one of the young children began to have a tantrum,
Nancy called to Nanny to come take them away. Jean
suggested that Nancy should be more hands on with the children.
It might have struck a chord with Nancy because Rob
constantly told her the same thing, that she needed to

(29:36):
be more engaged with the children. She lashed out angrily
and demanded Jean leave immediately. She pushed and shoved her
mother out the door and then slammed.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
It shut, and she didn't talk to her for years
and years after that wow.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
In October nineteen ninety nine, Nancy and Rob welcomed their
third child, a son named Rice.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
I don't think I mentioned the second child's name is June,
so they have a lame June and okay.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Rob was overjoyed, but Nancy sank into postpartum depression. At
thirty five, She began to feel unattractive, convinced her best
years were behind her, Although just months before Rice's birth,
the Kissels had moved to the twenty second floor of
Tower seventeen of Parkview. That's the good Tower, one of
the good.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Towers, one of the good towers. It's not eighteen, okay.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Now living in the second most prestigious tower, Nancy took
satisfaction and looking down on others, knowing that she had
made it. In the spring of two thousand, as Nancy
began house hunting in Connecticut, convinced their time in Asia
was nearly over per her agreement with Rob, but he
accepted a new position with Meryll Lynch as Asia Pacific
Managing Director of Global Principal Investments, and they would need

(30:44):
to extend their time in Asia.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
Rob took this new job in part because, remember how
much he wanted to make partner, it looked like he
was not going to make partner at Goldman, so he
took this job with Mary Lynch. But it was also
an excellent job.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
To persuade Nancy to stay another three years, he struck
a bargain with her. The couple loved skiing and owned
a condo at Stratton Mountain in Vermont, where Rob and
his family had gone since he was a child. Nancy
envied Andrew and Hayley's home on the mountain. She agreed
to remain in Asia on the condition that they purchased
a two million dollar house in Stratton and set aside

(31:21):
another one million dollars for renovations and decorating. Rob agreed.
Despite Nancy winning this battle. This was a turning point
in the Kissel's marriage. A small seed of resentment that
had been planted since their move to Hong Kong flowered
into hatred. The sight of Rob and the sound of
his voice began to turn her stomach. He badgered her
constantly about spending time with the children and feeding them

(31:44):
home cooked meals instead of taking them out for fast food.
And then there was the constant battle over her excessive
shopping and self indulgence. The marriage was in a slow
descent toward irreparable fracture, a once happy union now defined
by bitterness and animas more money and material goods couldn't
fix their problems. Many years earlier, in nineteen sixty six,

(32:07):
Jeanne and Ira, Nancy's parents, purchased a lead statuette of
two little girls for his mother for Mother's Day. It
was eight inches tall and very heavy, about eight pounds.
She cherished the piece as it reminded her of her
two granddaughters. Nancy always loved the piece too. She shared
a very special bond with her grandmother. When she passed

(32:27):
away in two thousand and one. After the funeral, Nancy
brought the treasured statue back with her to Hong Kong
and placed it in her bedroom, a cherished memento of
someone she deeply loved and missed. Why are you telling
me about this statue right now?

Speaker 1 (32:41):
It seems like a superfluous detail, doesn't.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
It It does. Yeah. Finally, in two thousand and two,
Nancy was feeling more comfortable in Hong Kong as the
kids were getting older and were easier to manage. She
started to volunteer at the Hong Kong International School. She
was there so much she asked for her own parking space.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Anne got it.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
She organized parties, fundraisers, and spearheaded school beautification projects. She
even began using the school's address to send and receive
mail that she didn't want Rob to see. Nancy, the children,
and Connie spent the summer of two thousand and two
in New York. While Connie looked after the kids, Nancy
filled her days with shopping. Briana O'shay, Nancy's childhood best friend,

(33:23):
came to visit her for a few days in New York.
During the visit, the two went to see Unfaithful, starring
Richard Gear and Diane Lane.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
Do you remember this movie? Uh?

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Not really?

Speaker 1 (33:33):
No, So as homework for the podcast, I watched the
movie the other day thoroughly enjoyed it. It's really good.
I recommend you go watch it if you haven't watched it.
It's pretty good. It's very intense, some kind of like
a little bit of a thriller. Fast forward probably thirty
seconds if you don't want to hear about the movie
and you'd rather watch it. But we're going to give

(33:53):
just a brief little synopsis.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
In the film, Lane's character has an affair with a
Frenchman who is very hands okay, and when her husband,
played by Gear, hires a private investigator, the truth is
confirmed to him in a series of damning photographs. Consumed
with rage, Gear's character confronts the lover in his apartment and,
in a fit of violence, kills him by bashing his

(34:16):
head with a snow globe. The movie struck a chord
with Nancy, so much so that she couldn't stop thinking
about it for weeks afterward. This is all coming full
circle with this statue that you mentioned.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Earlier, just putting things together.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
I know, I'm good.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
I just mentioned the statue because there was an important
memento to Nancy got her grandmother. The frenchman in the
film is very handsome.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
You said that already, apparently.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
But he's very handsome, and he's played by I believe
his name is Oliver Martinez, who was married to Haley
Berry and they had a very ugly divorce. Okay, sorry
my pop culture knowledge, just I can't shut up.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
You find Richard Gear handsome?

Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yeah, definitely, but he's no Frenchman?

Speaker 2 (34:59):
Okay. Over the Christmas holiday that year, the entire Kissel
family met at Whistler to ski together. Nancy was so
checked out of the family's incessant arguing and one upsmanship
that she and Rice flew back to Hong Kong several
days early. Bill Kissel was furious, reminding Rob to keep
his wife firmly in her place. In two thousand and three,

(35:21):
Hong Kong was hit hard by the SARS epidemic. I
forgot all about sorrows. COVID has just eclipsed every other
epidemic from my brain.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
They started in very similar ways.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, Schools closed, businesses shuddered, and fear gripped the city.
As hundreds fell ill and nearly three hundred people died.
The economy took a sharp downturn, especially in real estate
and tourism. Many expatriots, already unsettled by the outbreak, chose
to leave Hong Kong altogether. For those who stayed, the
sense of isolation and uncertainty only added to the pressures

(35:54):
of daily life. Rob sent Nancy and the three children
back to the US after he fell ill in Hong Kong,
but no school in New York would allow Nancy to
enroll the children. After their arrival from Hong Kong, Verma
was more amenable, so they moved to the skihouse, even
though it was still under renovation. Rob came to visit
in April on the twenty first, his fortieth birthday. Nancy

(36:18):
nor the kids acknowledged his birthday. That is sad. Rob
returned to Hong Kong depressed and in pain. An old
ski injury to his back was giving him problems again.
Soon after his return to China, Rob was offered a
major promotion managing all of Asia's distressed debt investments. The
job would require a move from Hong Kong to Tokyo,

(36:39):
but Rob thought it would give him and Nancy a
chance for a fresh start. We'll be back after a break.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Rana, Nancy's childhood best friend, began noticing changes in Nancy's
personality and a growing shift in her attitude towards since
Bryce's birth. She seemed depressed and withdrawn. It surprised Brna
when Rob called her seeking her advice on how to
approach his crumbling marriage with Nancy and estates and Rob

(37:12):
in Asia, he installed spyware on her computer. Not He
also hired an ex cop turned PI named Frank Shay
to trail Nancy. Frank's business, Alpha Group was thriving, even
started getting international jobs working corporate investigations and computer forensics.
For twelve thousand, five hundred dollars a week plus expenses.

(37:37):
Frank or one of his associates would follow Nancy and
give a detailed report of her actions for the week.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
I'd do that for ten grand a week.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
That amount of money shocked me.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
That is shocking.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Michael del Priori thirty nine, a twice divorced father of
three and an audio visual technician, was hired by Rob
to install a state of the art home theater in
the Vermont Ski House. Rob was in Asia on the
day of the installation, leaving Nancy to handle things. When
Mike rang the doorbell, Nancy answered wearing short shorts and
a tank top. Mike was a bulky guy who obviously

(38:11):
hit the gym a few times a week, but he
wasn't a good guy. He'd left his wife and two
kids for an eighteen year old exotic dancer. When she
became pregnant, he left her to pursue a relationship with
a fifteen year old He was thirty oh. As Mike
installed the sound system, Nancy kept him company. By the
time he was finished, they'd arranged a playdate for their children.

(38:34):
By the end of the week, the private investigator confirmed
to Rob that Nancy and Mike had met twice, each
time for several hours. Rob had also intercepted a string
of thirty emails between them, enough to remove any doubt
about an affair. He thanked the investigator and said that
that was all he needed. On Nancy's next date with Mike,

(38:55):
he took her to get a tattoo three small Chinese
characters inked on her left shoulder, each symbol representing one
of her children's birth dates. She couldn't wait for Rob
to see the new tattoo because she knew that he
would hate it. I think that she had expressed interest
in getting a tattoo before and Rob was like, Nope,
you don't need one. Nancy and Mike quickly became inseparable,

(39:18):
meeting almost every day and talking for hours on the
phone in between rendezvous. But by late June, guilt and
anxiety began to set in. Nancy tried to end the affair,
only to fall into a cycle of breakups and reconciliations
that repeated every few days for the remainder of the summer.
Years earlier, Rob had back surgery after suffering an injury

(39:38):
while skiing in the summer of two thousand and two.
He reinjured it while playing tennis. For weeks, he was
laid up with nothing to do but obsess over Nancy
and her new boyfriend. In July, he returned to the
States to consult doctors. He told Nancy he had read
some of her emails, claiming he'd only seen them because
her computer had a virus, and then confronted her about Mike.

(40:00):
She denied having an affair. They were just friends, she claimed.
Rob asked her not to see him anymore. She promised
not to. She had a lot to lose. Rob wasn't
sure if he could trust her, so he called his
friends at Alpha Group to surveil Nancy once again. She
had more free time because the children were immersed in
summer camps or in the care of the nanny. Nancy

(40:21):
kept the private investigator Roco, busy checking into cheap motels
with Mike, never the same one twice. Nancy enjoyed cosplaying
her new role as the girlfriend of a blue collar worker.
Knowing she had her comfortable home and credit cards still
at her disposal, she and Mike grew closer. She confided
to him that Rob was abusive to her, both mentally

(40:42):
and physically, even breaking her ribs. Nancy had never told
anyone else in her life about the domestic violence she suffered.
One days, when she didn't see Mike until the children
were in bed, she filled the hours with endless shopping.
Even Roco the PI was surprised that Nancy, in true
shopaholic fashion, could find something to buy it at we store.
It's just like you. I can never eat a stop shopping.

(41:05):
He'll be at the gas station. I'll be like, well,
I need to load up on none nor delicious. Rob
told the PI to call him next time Mike was
in the house so he could call and confront Nancy
while he was still there. But when Rob tried to call,
she wouldn't pick up. Eventually, Connie answered the phone and
told Rob that she was asleep and not feeling well.

(41:27):
Moments later, the private investigator saw Mike's speed out of
the driveway. The next day, Nancy and the children returned
to Hong Kong. While they were en route, Rob took
off his wedding ring and met with a divorce attorney.
He still loved his wife and was devastated. Friends say
that Rob even considered moving Mike to Hong Kong, even

(41:47):
paying for the move as a compromise.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
I know that seems crazy, but I read it in
two different places.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Do seem crazy?

Speaker 1 (41:54):
But when Rob picked Nancy and the children up at
the airport, everything seemed back to normal. Utter than normal. Actually,
Rob felt hopeful about his marriage for the first time
in a long time. Just a week later, Rob traveled
to New York for back surgery, and Nancy would a
long to support him and care for him after the operation.
Or did she?

Speaker 2 (42:15):
I don't know did she?

Speaker 1 (42:17):
Rob wrote the following in a rare moment of reflection
days before he went to the hospital. I keep my
ring in my pocket. By taking it off, I feel
that I am emotionally protected against what I know and
against how I feel. The reminders of our marriage are
out of sight. Get out of sight reminds me to remember.
She remember what got us here to where we are today.

(42:37):
She remember never to forget, never to forget what we had,
and never to forget that. One cannot just wear a ring.
One has to work at it. The early years are
easy and natural, the love and the fun. The later years,
the kids are beautiful. Time is short, time is stretched,
and something has to give. Do we see it? Do
we hear it? Do we speak of it? Communication, remembrance

(43:00):
of each other when we are together, what we love
about each other, what we loved about each other, our
time together, exploring each other. That's what gives. Fourteen years
is a long time. Things get lost, people change, communication
is gone. Feelings are hurt. Sometimes the hurt is deep
and painful. People go astray. The heart is so deep,

(43:20):
the whole body weeps. The mind's eye likes to torture
between images of someone else and images of our love,
our beautiful past. But the love is stronger, The love
is stronger. It felt right being back together. It's time
to try and focus. Can we get back to it?
Can we find a new place. It will be work
for us both. It is work to remember, work to

(43:41):
be patient, work to change back to the way we started,
and to find a new place. We had a love,
a love through and through. We need to remember, we
need to find. That's why I keep my ring in
my pocket. Keeps me safe, It brings me love. So
it seems that Rob was willing to forgive Nancy and
wanted to move forward in their marriage. Here's another journal

(44:01):
entry demonstrating his love for his wife. What a week.
Even though it is terrible circumstances my operation, I feel
like I am in love again. Nancy picked out some
cologne for me at Bloomy's. She sleeps facing me, touches me,
and holds my hand without me doing it first. She
seems to care about what I'm doing versus not caring
if I died. We call the kids together, wake, eat

(44:23):
and sleep together. I love being together. It is as
it was ten years ago. But my mind wanders back
to what I know. I still don't trust that she
is not writing letters or calling her lover when I
am tied up with a doctor. What can I do?
I can only show my love the real sadness and
emptiness is that I love her but may never trust her.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
It's the real philosopher, poet, introspection kind of guy, all
of a sudden.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Right, and an investment banker on top of that. Yeah,
Rob was nervous that while he was recuperating in the
hospital that Nancy would contact Mike. He reached out to
Alpha Group again to arrange a tale for her, but
Frank Shay talked him out of it. If you're going
to stay in your marriage, you've got to trust her,
he said. The surgery went well. Rob was planning on

(45:10):
staying in New York for two weeks before returning to
Hong Kong, but Nancy was headed back to be there
for the children's first day of school. The day before
she left for Asia, she snuck out of their hotel
room to meet Mike. They went on a carriage ride
around the city. Nancy even paid the driver to go
around the Loop twice. She sobbed into Mike's arms, telling
him how controlling an abusive Rob had been to her.

(45:32):
Nancy said Rob was an alcoholic and a drug abuser.
When he was high or drunk, he forced himself on her.
She couldn't live that way any longer, she told Mike.
Mike told her to leave Rob, but Nancy said that
she'd lose the children in a divorced settlement. They had
sex in the stairway of the Pash Hotel, where Nancy
and Rob were staying, before they parted ways. The day

(45:53):
after Nancy was back in Hong Kong, she made the
following Google searches sleeping pills, drug overdose, and medication causing
heart attack. She also opened a bank account in her
name only and began siphoning money from the joint account
into her own. She purchased a secret cell phone just
for calls to Mike. Her first call stretched to four hours,

(46:14):
though later both would claim they couldn't remember what they'd
talked about.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Nancy thought she was being meticulous in her planning, but
she didn't realize that Rob had spyware on her laptop
and he saw her Google searches.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
How scary that must have been for him.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Oh, incredibly scary if you.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
See searches like that on my computer, though you know
it's because I'm doing a true crime podcast. Of course,
it would never harm you, right.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
Nancy visited a psychiatrist a few days later. She told
the doctor that she was in an abusive marriage and
was having trouble sleeping. He wrote her a prescription for
ambient Rob had returned to Hong Kong. It was his
habit each night before bed to have two fingers of scotch.
When he noticed that it tasted peculiar, he didn't finish
the drink, but when he stood up he felt woozy

(46:59):
and nearly fell over. By this point, Rob was basically
a detective. While Nancy slept, he rifled through her purse
and found the prescription bottle and a love letter from
Mike that was like a gut punch to Rob. It
read another day down, another day closer to seeing you.
I am going crazy thinking about you. Whenever a customer

(47:19):
comes in the store, I want to say, don't bother me.
I am thinking about Nancy. I misholding you hearing your voice.
I love it when you call my name. It makes
me melt.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
Give me a bucket.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
He had been sending love letters to the children's school.
Rob called his private investigator friend, Frank Shay, and asked
him to see if Mike was still in the US.
He was. Shay confirmed. Frank advised Rob to stop drinking
the Scotch and to change his ten million dollar life
insurance policy. If he were to die, Nancy would receive
his entire estate, worth as much as twenty million dollars.

(47:53):
He advised Rob to submit hair, blood, and urine samples
along with some of his scotch to allow for drug testing,
but Rob threw himself back into work, occupied with a
huge one hundred million dollar deal. His new celebratory Porsche
was also a distraction. When Frank reminded him days later,
Rob promised he would take care of it, but he

(48:14):
never sent the samples to the lab. I don't understand
why Rob wouldn't just get out if you felt like
there was a even a chance that your partner was
researching ways to kill you like I wouldn't. I wouldn't
be sticking around and just.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
Taking something like we've been married for a long time.
If you saw those surges, I might well obviously a
true crime podcaster, wouldn't you, because you just wouldn't think
that I would try to kill you.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
I would write no, But but he knows she's having
an affair on him, Like it just seems I don't know,
he seems a little naive.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Think it takes a long I mean, we do these
cases every week. It takes a long time, I think
for people to really believe that this person that you
love and have made a commitment to would try to
take your life.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
That's very true. The Kissel's marriage seemed to be on
the Nancy was more focused and attentive, even agreeing to
marriage counseling, although one session unraveled into a screaming match,
with Nancy declaring she wanted out, but the very next
day she apologized, sincerely telling Rob she loved him and
wanted their marriage to work. Nancy, it turns out, was

(49:17):
also a bit of a detective. She went through their
phone bill and found an unknown number dialed several times.
She had Mike call the number from the States Alpha
Group Investigations. The voice on the other end of the
line answered. Rob noticed frequent cash withdrawals from their account
and accused Nancy of sending money to Mike.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
She was, but she denied it.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
The confrontation escalated into a shoving match, after which Rob
cut up all but one of her credit cards. Soon after,
the Kissels were invited to an exclusive reception honoring former
President George H. W. Bush. Rob was a big fan
of his and excited to attend. Nancy was also looking
forward to the event. She bought a special new dress

(50:00):
the event, a dress that highlighted her shoulders. In the
weeks since she had gotten the three tattoos, Rob hadn't
yet seen them. When Nancy spun around showing him her
new dress, Rob grew enraged when he saw the tattoos.
He blew up. It might have been the final straw.
He had tried to be patient with her, but this
show of rebellion was too much. They shouted and screamed

(50:22):
obscenities at each other. Nancy later claimed that Rob ripped
the dress from her body. They were late to the reception,
but once there, Nancy, in a much better mood, brazenly
tapped President Bush on the shoulder and asked if he
might say hello to her husband and pose for a picture.
He kindly obliged, I will post that picture interesting. Just

(50:42):
days later, Nancy hatched a new plan. She missed Mike
and knew Rob would see through any trip to the States.
She called her best friend Bryna and proposed that she
fly into San Francisco and they could get boob jobs together.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
It's a job, because we've said this several times because
rest dougmentations sounded funny to say boob jobs either, but
they both sound they were getting cosmetic surgery on their breast, gotcha.
But the plan was for Mike to meet Nancy there.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
Right Unbeknownst to Nancy, Brina and Rob had been emailing
and talking for months about the state of the Kissel's marriage.
Briina had become his confidant and in many ways, his
source of comfort.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
Which is a little weird too, a lot weird.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
Rob had become obsessed with finding proof that Nancy was
still carrying on with Mike. He found it one day,
in the form of a cell phone bill for an
unfamiliar number. Then he found the cell phone hidden in
her underwear drawer.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
It's like the worst place to hide anything.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Yeah, terrible. This was a pivotal moment for Rob. He
woke up. He finally knew that his marriage was over.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Okay, I realized. I think I said a few minutes
ago that he really thought.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
The marriage was real.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
He really, really really thinks it's over.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
He took the phone and threw it into the street,
never uttering a word to his wife. Nancy panicked when
she realized the phone was missing. She called Mike collect
from a payphone several times a day.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Okay, so she's calling Mike from Hong Kong to the stage.
Oh gosh, and like she's calling him several times a day.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
His phone bill that month was over ten thousand dollars.
Oh my, Mike was not a wealthy man.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
On Thursday, October twenty third, Nancy visited her doctor and
confided to her that her husband had been physically abusive
to her. The doctor noted no apparent injuries and wrote
in her notes quote alleged assault, subsequent violations, and low libido.
Nancy admitted that the ambient wasn't effective and asked for
a stronger medication. She suggested rofinol, also known as Rufe's

(52:45):
or the date rape drug, illegal in the US but
not in Asia. That same week, Nancy also returned to
the psychiatrist complaining of a very tenacious sleep problem. She
was given three medications, lauraz sam axetol, and amatryptolene. The
combinations of all of the drugs Nancy now had in
her medicine cabinet, when taken together, could definitely cause death.

(53:10):
A few days later, Rob asked a recruiter he knew
to fax him a list of prominent divorce attorneys in
Hong Kong. When nothing came through, he called to remind him,
only to learn the list had already been sent. The
recruiter read the number back, and Rob realized with dread
it had gone straight to his home fax machine. Nancy
almost certainly had it in her hands. After leaving the

(53:32):
United Jewish Congregation. On Sunday, October second June, the middle
Kissel child had a play date with a friend, Leah.
Her father. Forbes Magazine Hong Kong bureau chief Andrew Tanzer
dropped his daughter off and stayed for a while to
talk with Rob. Soon their daughters delivered them pink milkshakes
from the kitchen, made by Nancy. It tasted sickly sweet,

(53:54):
made from strawberries, all the ice cream remnants in the freezer,
and crushed cookies. Tanzer drank his quickly and said he'd
return in a couple of hours to pick up Lea.
When he got home, he was overwhelmed by sleepiness and
laid down on the couch. He was in such a
deep sleep his wife couldn't wake him up. Hours later
to pick up lea. Rob took Rice to the park

(54:15):
when a colleague, David No, called him to discuss business.
Rob was usually the sharpest guy in the room, but
on this call he was confused and slurring his words.
David was concerned because they had an important conference call
scheduled for later that night. At six p m. With
Connie off for the day, Nancy asked the housekeeper Min

(54:35):
to collect Rice from the park and take him to
a friend's picnic, with strict orders he be home by
seven p m. Min asked Rob if she could wear
his watch so she could keep track of the time.
He took off his fifteen thousand dollars Cardier watch and
handed it to her, and then headed back up to
his apartment. At six oh six p m. Security cameras
captured Rob entering the elevator. The next morning, when the

(54:59):
children asked where Rob was, Nancy said he had left
for work because he had an early meeting. Min thought
it was odd that his watch was still sitting on
the counter where she'd left it the night before. He
never left home without it. Nancy asked Connie to pick
up some bleach when she dropped Rice off at preschool.
After the kids left for school, Nancy retreated to her bedroom,

(55:20):
telling Min not to disturb her or clean her bedroom
that day. She then spent the next half hour on
the phone with Mike. Next, she sent an email canceling
an upcoming lunch she had scheduled with Scottie the Clown,
who she had booked for an upcoming event at the
Hong Kong International School. She wrote, my husband is not
well and I need to take care of some things. Sorry,

(55:41):
I will be in touch soon. She ordered some packing
boxes to be delivered to her apartment, and then called
the building's superintendent to rent an additional storage unit. Around
ten a m Nancy left to go shopping at a
home furnishing store and bought several items, including sheets, bedding, pillows,
a chaise lounge, and a rug. Back at the apartment,

(56:02):
she asked Min to go out to buy rope, packing tape,
and plastic sheeting. Nancy was in the bedroom for the
remainder of the day. I wonder what Min thought at
this point. Could you go buy me some rope, some
plastic sheeting, some pate and don't come in the bedroom. Well.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
This was never stated in the book, but It's possible
that they were getting ready for a move, because remember
Rob got the promotion right and they were going to
go to Taiwan, Okay.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
At seven pm, she called her father where we began
this episode, crying as she recounted the terrible fight that
she and Rob had had the night before. Afterwards, she
tried calling Brina. It was only five thirty am in
San Francisco, so Briana didn't answer, but Nancy left a message.
You've got to call me. It's very important. I just

(56:47):
called my dad and he's flying down here. Rob and
I had a fight. He chased me around the room.
He wanted to have sex. He beat me up, Call
me please. When she woke up, Briina called Nancy, who
told her about the fight and how violent Rob had
been chasing her around, punching, hitting and kicking her. Briana
knew that Rob was going to tell Nancy that weekend

(57:08):
that he wanted a divorce. Nancy's story didn't seem to
add up. If Rob was planning on leaving Nancy, why
would he be chasing her around demanding sex. She tried
calling him and emailing him several times with no response.
The next morning, Nancy was still acting strangely. She asked
Min to go buy as much peppermine oil as she
could get at the pharmacy. At nine am, Nancy walked

(57:31):
into her doctor's office, hunched over and walking slowly. She
explained to the doctor that her husband had beaten her badly,
punching and kicking her, and he had tried to force
her to have sex. Nancy's only visible wound was a
small puncture on her hand between her thumb and forefinger.
She explained that the only weapon she'd had in the
bedroom during the assault was a fork, and rob had

(57:53):
stabbed her with it. The doctor observed that her entire
body was tender to the touch, despite only a few bruises.
There were rugburns on Nancy's knees and a large bruise
on her right shin. She demanded x rays because she
was sure her ribs or collar bone was broken. Neither were.
When she was finished at the doctor's office, Nancy bought

(58:15):
two more rugs. Connie noticed a bleached spot on the
carpet and the smell of incense coming from the bedroom.
It was odd because Nancy had never burned incense before. Later,
Nancy confided in Connie about the fight, insisting on its
severity and once again claiming she had broken a wrist
or her ribs. Connie was surprised because neither she nor

(58:37):
min had heard the fight. Nancy said Rob had stormed
out of the apartment in anger, and she thought it
entirely possible he wouldn't return, and after the explosive fight,
she wasn't sure she even wanted to see him again.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
And that, my friends, is where we're going to end.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Really, we don't get to find out what happened to
Rob until part two.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Okay, exactly do you think is coming back?

Speaker 2 (59:01):
No? I do not think he's coming back.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
What do you think drew Rob and Nancy together in
the first place, because they're pretty different.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
I mean, it must have had something to do with
meeting in the nude on a nude beach. Maybe some
instant attraction there, but no, I don't know. I mean, sometimes,
you know, opposites do attract, and maybe he was rebelling,
you know, from his family a little bit because the
expectation was that he would marry someone who was ivy
league and you know, upper class, So it could be
part of that as well.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
I'm not sure. If I did the best job describing
Nancy at the beginning, But they did have a lot
of fun together. She could be the life of the party. Yeah,
and I think that he was attracted to that. But
in a lot of ways, I think Andrew, the older brother,
and Nancy were more alike and Hayley, Andrew's spouse, was
maybe a better fit for a Rob. Like they were both,

(59:50):
you know, very career oriented and very successful, and the
other two were you know, kind of like a good
time Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Do you think that living in a well the extra
patriot community in Hong Kong had any impact on their relationship?

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Well maybe it probably, I'm sure it had an impact
on the relationship. But also him working sixteen hours a day, Yeah,
I'm sure had an impact on the relationship. But her
being there in a foreign country while her husband is
basically gone all the time, that's got to be really challenging.
I feel some sympathy for her, I agree in that situation.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
Yeah, definitely. Why do you think that Rob didn't end
the marriage sooner?

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
I don't know, I mean, as soon as you said
he hired a private investigator. I'm like, at that point,
if you if you don't trust your spouse enough that
you feel you need to hire a private investigator. I
feel like it should be over, you know, It's just
I don't know why he didn't leave for sooner.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
Do you think that the Kissel's coming from, you know,
this wealthy family and divorce is probably very frowned upon,
had something to do with it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Could? Yeah? Could?

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
It would be an indicator of failure. And remember they were,
you know, trained from an early age to succeed everything
they did, So maybe he just didn't want to admit
to defeat.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Yeah, that's a good observation. One question I have is
that you alluded to a few times in your script
that she claimed that Rob beat her. Is there any
evidence that that happened.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
There's not, but it seems like maybe she was trying
to lay the groundwork for yes, I was a battered spouse. Okay,
But it's so hard in these situations when we're telling
these stories because there's not really evidence either way. And
I always want to believe people who say that they're
victims of domestic violence. But really, Rob does seem like

(01:01:36):
a nice guy. He was very invested in his job
and you know, probably didn't give his family as much
attention as he could have, but he did try to.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Yeah. Well, that was my other question for you was
about whether Rob you thought he was a good husband
or not. Obviously he worked way too much and probably
that took him away from time with family and things
like that. But was there any evidence did he have
a fan or did he do anything else that made
him a bad husband? Do you think?

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
We'll talk about that a little bit in part two.
I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but I
don't think that he was a perfect husband, sure, but
I do think he was a pretty good guy, and
I think he tried his best.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
You know, I think this case was, you know, twenty
years ago, and I know it's not that long ago,
but even twenty years ago, I think a lot of
men thought that their primary objective was to make money
for their family, right right, And he definitely was doing
He was making up boatload of money, seems and his
earning potential seemed limitless, almost because his bonuses were literally

(01:02:40):
millions of dollars a year, Which brings me to the
question to you, like, we keep doing these stories about
these wealthy people. What are we doing wrong? We're doing
all right? But like these people who have so much money,
they just don't know what to do with it. Yeah,
it's insane to me, It really is so ira. In

(01:03:02):
this case, Nancy's father, I'm not sure how close they were.
I think Nancy didn't have a lot of people that
she was close to in her life. You know, she
wasn't really raised by her father. But he rushed to
her side, and you know, he went to Hong Kong.
And I thought that was really sweet. Yeah, and just
wanted what like, in that position, God forbid if one

(01:03:23):
of our children, you know, called us in that situation
where they're being abused by their spouse. Yeah, I can't
imagine how hard that would be to hear.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Oh, that would be really hard. And yeah, I would
jump on a plane in a minute, you know, to
help with something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Definitely. Well, be sure to come back for part two
because there are some things that are really going to
surprise you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
I'm just going to say that I'll be here.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
I think about this a lot. But if I were
to die, please don't look at my Google searches.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Well now I'm going to You can't just say that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
But it really I think about this all the time.
Like the things that we google are so private, you know,
and I always forget to clean up. I don't even
know how you really I clean out my cash once.
How do you delete your Google searches? Or do you?

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
I mean, I think it's I honestly don't know either.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
I don't really do it because you can't really do
it permanently.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
It'd be hard to do permanently. Yes, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
Do you ever do incognito searches?

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Uh? Not that I can recall. I'm not going to
say I never do. Maybe I do, but off the
top of.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
My head, I'm going to admit something to you all,
But sometimes I go incognito if I'm playing the wordle, oh,
I'm about to like get it wrong and like I'm
not gonna lose wordle, So I'll go to Then you
thought I was going somewhere else.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
I did not think that you were going to go there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
But I'm admitting to my deepest, darkest secret.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Dark that's down. How can you sleep at night?

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Sometimes I don't. But it's not because of that. It's
like the other things.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
How often, like what percentage of the wordles that you do?
Say that you have to do that very often.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
Sometimes I'm super sharp on the wordle, but other days
it's just like I think it depends on what time
I do it, because you know, sometimes I'm up way
too late and it's like two am, and I should
be like, I'll do the world. Yeah, it's probably not
like my peak brain performance.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Right, does the word'll update like at midnight? So oh yes, okay,
so you get in on it early sometimes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
To New York Times too. We like a puzzle. I
don't know if you have played Pips. I knew it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
You told me about it. I did it like once
or twice. That's all.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
I really like it. It's really fun. It's like a
little math game. So if you like the wordle, I
love connections wordle and Pips is really fun too. But
I don't know. Those are the only ones I do.
Do you do any other daily puzzles?

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
I don't like. I play Sudoco once in a while.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
He means to do I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
I can never say that. Yeah, I do that once
in a while. That's really about it. On a daily basis.
I would say, do you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
Have any embarrassing Google searches that you want to admit to?

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
You know, this is really dumb. But a lot of
my Google searches that are I don't know if this
is embarrassing, but I google like words, the definitions of
words that I should totally know. Yeah, but I'll be
about to type a word in an email and I'll
be like, wait, does that mean what I think? That's
not embarrassing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Okay, we'll give us some of the words.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
The last one I did that was entice, which I
totally know the meaning of the word entice, but for
some reason, I just felt like I had to look
it up to be sure.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
I have a list of embarrassing Google searches, kind of
like people admitting online like things that they've searched, And
this one hits home to me. It's similar to what
you said. Recently, I forgot the word wreath, so I
searched Christmas circles and it worked like things like that.
Before I do things like that's just like the word
just totally leaves your mind. Yeah. Or one time I

(01:07:03):
was in college really late typing a paper and I
forgot how to spell the word was that's like w
usy it was.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
It was so yeah, it totally happens like words start
to like you start saying a word in your head
over and over and you're like, that doesn't sound real,
Like that doesn't sound like a real word.

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
Yeah, exactly. Here's a few more. Why does my cat
stare at me like that? That's something that I would
totally google. Well, I remember one time I think you
were away and it scared me, Like I think it
was Clover and she was staring at the wall literally
like two hours, yeah, and I was like, what do
you see that I can't see? And like I get
a flash that I'm looking at the wall is just

(01:07:43):
kind of frightening.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
It freaks you out?

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
Yeah, yeah. Can you survive a zombie apopcalypse with just cheese? Plants?
Feel pain? Why do I burp so much after kissing
my partner? That's a weird one. How do I tell
if my roommate is secretly plotting against me? They probably are?

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
Probably?

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Is it a legal to marry a sandwich? Why does
me sound like a foghorn? Can I get abs from
eating cookies? Absolutely? Yes, I mean look at our abs.
They're amazing. Do you fish get lonely? It's sad because
they probably do. We always used to always have one
goldfish on our counter yeah, and we got cats and

(01:08:22):
we decided that that probably.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Was probably not a good combination.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
But if you have some embarrassing google so we would
love to know, We would love to hear them. Yes,
but having the podcast is such like a good Yeah, yeah,
it's just for the it's just for the podcast. But
I had to google something for part two of this
that I was like horrified that I had to google it.

(01:08:46):
It wasn't embarrassing as much as like, uh, I don't
want to be too graphic, but it was a graphic
sexual thing. I was like, oh my god, please forgive me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
Did you use incognito?

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
I didn't use incognito, but I was like, okay, this
isn't you know, it's just because of the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
Well, I'm just going to tell you now because you
may be wanting to look at my Google searches. Now.
My next case we're talking about breast augmentation surgeries or
jobs or boob jobs. My next case heavily involves breast
augmentation surgeries, so there may be some searches on my
laptop around that topic.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
I was going to ask you about that. This is
embarrassing not for me, but for like I've had. Actually
I don't look at yours ever, but like a friend's
husband will follow me on Instagram or something, and then
I'll just look at the people that they're following, and
they're following like Sally x x x or something like that.

(01:09:40):
Have you ever seen a friend or anyone follow like
and you see them following a bunch of like, you know,
hot girls, and I'm just kind of horrified by that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
Yeah, and like their spouse isn't on Instagram or face like.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
One of them is, and I'm like, how would you
do that? How is your wife supposed to feel about that?
And it was like the one person I'm thinking of
it was several hot babs call it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
Wow, Yeah, that's pretty.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
I guess I haven't even checked yours, So you shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
You should just trust me.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
I do. I do, and I really do, Like I
don't know, I respect people's privacy, yeah, and I just
wouldn't do that, but you don't give me reason to.
So again, I'm sitting here in a place of right,
Uh what's the word privilege? Yeah, because I know that I,
you know, have an honorable husband as far as you know,
as far as I know, he presents himself that way anyway.

(01:10:31):
All right, Well, that's all we have for today.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
If you'd like to listen to part two of this
episode right now, you can join us on Patreon dot
com slash Love Mary Kill. We have one tier five
dollars a month and you get early ad free access
and a monthly bonus episode.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
And if you don't want to support us on Patreon,
that is completely fine. But the best way to support
the podcast, our podcast, or any podcast is to leave
us a five star review on Apple podcast or Spotify
or wherever you listen. Find us on social media, or
send us an email at Lovemary Kill at gmail dot com,
and find us on YouTube. We always post our episodes

(01:11:08):
a day early on YouTube. Until next time, don't kill
your wife and don't kill your husband.

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Nancy and Robert Kissel - Part 1

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Nancy and Robert Kissel - Part 1