Ep 068 Luxury Outdoor Design with Kirk Bianchi

In this episode of the Poolside Perspective Podcast, we are doing a re-run of episode 20 with guest designer Kirk Bianchi. With over 35 years of experience, Bianchi shares his unique design methodology, focusing on integrating all aspects of outdoor spaces, from pools and patios to landscaping and lighting. This episode highlights Bianchi’s passion for creating immersive, aesthetically pleasing environments, emphasizing the importance of a holistic approach to design. The discussion touches on the concept of designing from the outside in, the role of collaboration, and the value of professional guidance in achieving dream outdoor spaces.  

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00:00 Welcome to Poolside Perspective Podcast 01:12 Upcoming Episodes and Announcements 02:00 Special Guest: Kirk Bianchi 03:29 Kirk's Early Influences and Education 04:48 The Japan Experience 07:06 Design Philosophy: Inside Out 12:14 Creating Emotional Spaces 16:37 The Importance of Master Planning 30:03 The Art of Lighting 32:49 The Art of Night Lighting 33:45 Collaborating with Interior Designers 35:37 Showcasing a Favorite Project 37:50 Industry Evolution and Future Trends 42:45 The Bianchi Method: A 12-Step Design Process 47:06 Balancing Design and Construction 51:20 In-House vs. Outsourced Work 56:03 Mentorship and Education 01:00:39 Closing Thoughts and Future Plans  

Episode Transcript

Intro (00:02):
Welcome to Poolside Perspective Podcast.
I'm Mike Farley with Farley Pool Designs.
I'm sure glad you found this podcast.
We're going to talk about everything thathas to do with luxury outdoor living.
I've been designing for 35 years inthe outdoor living and pool industry.
So I understand the challenge you'refacing creating your backyard paradise.

(00:23):
We know your curiosity is notenough to ensure your success.
So on this podcast, we're going to talkabout the design process and practical
steps to help you create that fun space.
We'll have some fun, but this is no flaw.
No one has time for that.
So we're going to get serious and getvery particular on all these topics.
Whether you're a new homeowner with yourfirst remodel or a seasoned homeowner

(00:45):
completing your last three home, wewant to help you end up with what you've
dreamed of from pools to patios, pizzaovens to pergolas, porcelain to pumps,
pool parties to permits, ping pongtables, to the process, to your paradise.
This is straight talk and action steps.
Let's get started.

Mike (01:12):
Mike Farley, Farley pool designs.
And we really have some cool stuffthat's coming up over the next few weeks.
So we got to work on it a little bit.
right now we're actually going torebroadcast, several of the favorite
episodes, so you can enjoy those,while we're on leave of absence,
we'll be back the 1st of February.

(01:33):
And have, some really new, cool stuffthat'll be coming out you can enjoy.
But meanwhile, just wanted tolet you know, we haven't forgot
you and just didn't want to gooff air without an explanation.
but that's what's transpiringover the next couple of weeks.
And we will, look forwardto, seeing you soon.
You can reach out to uson social media still.
you got questions or comments aboutsome of the episodes that we've done in

(01:56):
the past, look forward to the future.
We'll talk with you soon.
Take care.

Kevin (02:00):
righty.
Good afternoon This is kevin woodhurstand mike farley here with poolside
perspectives And we've got a reallyawesome show today because we've got
a pretty special designer with us Onethat i've known for about 25 years and
in fact kirk bianchi I don't know ifyou remember the time that we were in
pennsylvania david tishman's designclass and I remember you Pretty much
being better than everyone else.

Kirk (02:20):
That's because of Mr.
Palm, my architectural draftingteacher in high school.
So you grew up in Michigan?
Yeah, we had really awesome highschool architectural drafting
all four years of high school.

Mike (02:31):
I was listening to one of the podcasts you were on.
It said you got to spend half aday in drafting class, which I
got to do the same thing in Texas.
It's a great start.
Is that what took you to Arizona?

Kirk (02:42):
Yeah, I just said I want to take architectural directing, I want to take
Japanese language and I want to be outsideunder a palm tree when I'm going to class.
Arizona's a good

Kevin (02:51):
place to do that.
You went to U of A?

Kirk (02:53):
Arizona State.

Kevin (02:54):
Arizona State, gotcha.
Yes.
So that was back when Genesyswas first getting started and
Tishman was doing his design.
Class, Skip Phillips was doinghis hydraulics and Brian Van
Bauer was doing his thing.
And that whole program wasjust getting going back then.
You and Mike both stayed in it,I think for the entire duration.
Did you not?

Kirk (03:14):
Well, I was just there in Morro Bay.
I think it was their second one.

Kevin (03:17):
I remember that one too.

Kirk (03:18):
That was my dose of Genesis.
I didn't carry on until Iwas got reintroduced here
in the last couple of years.

Kevin (03:25):
Oh, gotcha.
I

Kirk (03:26):
did my trajectory on my own and came back like a comet.

Mike (03:29):
So how did your journey start?
Give us some background on,I mean, I know some of it.
You're going to tell a lot better thanI'm going to ask questions about it.
So

Kirk (03:37):
looking back, I attribute my perspective on, I was just captivated
by art classes and photography andmodels as a kid, you know, my dad
sat me down when I was six and webuilt a model by playing together.
Spray paint testers.
And I just loved.
Building models and ILM, Star Wars andbuilding models and blowing things up.
That's what I did as a junior high kid.
Stop motion animation and a common theme.

(04:00):
I was through the lensof a camera all the time.
Always behind the camera and tryingto like perspective, you know, you
build a model, but you want to makeit look like as big as a house.
You got to get down low and look up at it.
So really that emphasis of.
Being through the lens of a camera andstorytelling with the video and how you
move through a space, like in film, howthey affect the camera angle, looking up
at a subject, that's all choreographed.

(04:23):
And how do they impact you emotionallyby how they affect the camera
angle and coming into a scene?
That's all intentional.
And so I got a good dose of that early.
And then architectural design.
It was just second nature for meas I'm designing people's backyards
to always What's my view frominside looking through the house?

Kevin (04:41):
That's what I was just going to say.
I'll bet you that experience probablyprepped you to some degree as you
added to your processes, if you will.
And then you went to Japan.
And had an epiphany over there.
Did you not?

Kirk (04:52):
Yeah, it was really, you know, my dad had his fifth business trip to
Japan over the summer of my junior year.
And he's like, let's go with me.
So I got to go there for amonth while he was at work.
I was just hanging out, ridingthe trains, checking out local
stuff, going on field trips.
And it was just insane howevery layer of that culture is.
An artisan.
I mean, the taxi cab driver with theirwhite gloves and their lace over the

(05:16):
seats, and he wears a captain's hat, helooks like he's an airline captain, and he
stands at attention outside of his taxi.
Every level of the culture, everyonetook pride in their work, and they
were all very artful in what they did.
I was waiting 30 minutes to geta fruit plate in between meals at
the local hotel we were staying at.
I just wanted a can of Dolepineapple would have been great.

(05:37):
And it took 30 minutes and they broughtit out and it sliced the pineapple in
half and they carved it out and they haddone this whole origami presentation on
all the fruit that they carved and littlewhipped cream around the perimeter.
I mean, it was, I looked over andI looked behind the window and.
The person who prepared it was,all you could see were his eyes
peering around the corner to see myreaction of the craft that he had

(05:57):
put into this presentation on it.

Kevin (05:59):
So you were moved by that and that ultimately became part
of how you do your business.

Kirk (06:04):
Yeah.
Wow.
How thoughtful and artful and thegesture of being artistically creative
and presenting it to somebody to receivewhat they had done was so moving.
Yeah.
And I would have been satisfiedwith just, you know, throw something
on a plate and get me out of here.
So it was very dramatic and that wasevery layer of the culture and then
there was one Japanese garden I got tosee that was tucked away in a courtyard

(06:27):
that you had no idea was there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Until you went into the space, sat downon the floor, Japanese style and turned
and looked, and there was a paper shojiblind wall that opened on this courtyard
garden that you had no clues there.
It wasn't any biggerthan your living room.
It was an enclosed space, but.
Wow.
I mean, I was just mesmerized bythe composition of that little
space and how it was a surprise.

(06:49):
So that was an epiphanymoment was blown away by that.
I still carry that picturewith me to show clients what
you can do with a small space.
And it's all about the composition.
And it's like the first slidein my Genesis class, and I
dissect it and show what's there.
And it was very impactful, that moment.
The surprising thing, though, is I wasarchitecturally minded back then, still.

(07:10):
And this is a nugget thatthere's a pervasive attitude.
in architecture and pools, and that is,the landscape is a fringe, it's what
fills in the negative space, it's anafterthought, you design the architecture,
you design the hardscape, you designthe pool, and then, oh, what's left?
Well, that's where the landscape goes.
And even though I had that moment inJapan where the landscape itself was

(07:32):
celebrated as the flower arrangement, itwasn't until my mid twenties, you know,
another seven or eight years, Where Istarted putting the landscape on the
pedestal and carving the space around it.
So it's an inverted process.
Start with the glorious ironwoodtree that is the focal point.
And that tells you wherethe pool isn't going.

(07:53):
Sure.
You have to attractively.
So that inverted process, it stilltook a while for that to happen.
But that is the, the peak of my processis just turning that upside down because
most architects and pool people, thelandscape, it comes later at the end
of the job when they come in last andjust fill, fill in the empty space.
It's very underwhelming when you do that.

Kevin (08:12):
So what I'm hearing is your perspective is to design the landscape
and all of the other elements and thensee what you have left for the pool and
design an artistic pool around that space.
Is that it?

Mike (08:24):
Precisely.
That's your inside outdesign theory, right?
Absolutely.
That's how you described it.
Or

Kirk (08:29):
outside

Mike (08:30):
in.
Outside in.
Yes.
Sorry.
Got it backwards.
I like

Kirk (08:33):
it.
You deal with the backdrop firstand then work your way to the next
layer in, in consecutive motion.
Most folks design, here's thepool, what can I fit around it?
And then you're left with not much.

Mike (08:46):
So this would really work well, especially in small spaces.

Kirk (08:50):
Correct.
You don't have the luxury.
If you're dealing with a twostory house next door, you
got to address that right off.
The pool's right against thewall and you're stuck looking
at the neighbor forever.
Yeah.
So you have to deal with that perimeterelement first, screen it with a tree
that would capture that view and not haveto be looking at that neighbor's house.
So you'd have to scale it that way.

Kevin (09:10):
Tell us a little bit about your company, Bianchi Design, which
I've followed for a lot of years.
I've seen all the magazine articles,I've seen all the accolades.
Your website is phenomenal.
Everything that you seem to put yourhands into is really exceedingly
artistic and very well thought out.
So kudos to you, but tell ouraudience about where you work out of

(09:31):
primarily, what you do, how you getyour clients, that sort of thing.

Kirk (09:36):
Yeah, they come from so many different places, whether it's architects
or realtors or interior designersthat have come to know me, sometimes
referrals from clients and house has beenthere, a website, all these different
channels that you have to have workingsimultaneously, they find me, but, and
I really positioned my language on mywebsite is, Hey, if you want an artistic

(09:57):
immersive experience, I'm your guy.
That's the language that I speak in.
And you're going toexperience this environment.
I got to work at the Ritz Carlton andthey had a credo that we all had to
memorize of what your mission was.
And one of the lines was that theywanted to have this enlivening.
The senses was a phrase.

(10:17):
Out of that credo, that was theirmission statement that every
employee had to memorize that.
That was really cool.
The way the fragrance of the flowersand the savory of the tea and all
these senses have to come into play.
And when you enliven the senses, you'recreating these transcendent memories.
Like I was saying, like Tony Robbinswas saying, how do you create a memory?
It's through heightened emotionalresponse to external stimuli.

(10:39):
That's what you remember.
These moments in your life usually hadhigh emotion, had high sensory input.
And that's why you create memories,is you have to heighten the
senses that creates the link.
And so they're interrelated, enliveningthe senses through sound, the sights,
the fragrances, the visual alignmentsof things that aren't, that are make,

(10:59):
you make them special and proportions,all of those artistic gestures.
That's the language that I speak in aseven in my marketing and my website.
And I haven't once talked aboutflow rates or hydraulics or in floor
cleaning systems in that conversation.

Kevin (11:14):
It's incorporated.
You're focusing on the art.

Kirk (11:17):
Yeah.
Start with the art.
Start with the why.
I think a lot of builders to theircredit are focused on nuts and
bolts because that's their craftand they're focused on the how.
And so my language with clients is beforewe get to that, let's figure out why.
Don't just rush in andstart building something.
Put five or 10 percent towards figuringout what you're going to do and why.
Okay.
And then the 90 percent will followwith the bill and make sure that the

(11:40):
nuts and bolts will fill the visionfor what you were trying to achieve.
Well, that makes sense.
Now that you say it, a lot of folksrush right in and just start digging.
You know, that's where doyou want to put the pool?
Let's put it here.
Okay, go.
When can you start?

Kevin (11:51):
As soon as we get a deposit, we'll be in there the following day.
It's definitely different.
And that's part of the premise of theshow, Kirk, is that we're trying to
help people understand the differencebetween just a basic salesperson now.
And there's a market for that.
There's a business model for that.
And then for those of us that look atthis a little bit more artistic and
are trying to put together somethingentirely different, which isn't
just a pool, it's an experience.

(12:12):
It's an outdoor environment.

Kirk (12:14):
We all have childhood memories of favorite places, family trips,
even as simple as my grandparentshad an empty lot next door with one
singular cottonwood tree with a swing.
And we'd all sit under that tree andhave lemonade and the neighbors would
come and we'd sit underneath that treeand that tree became the shelter for
this Childhood memory, 4th of July, hotair balloons coming over the sky and

(12:35):
landing in the cornfield behind the house.
Those are all high sensory moments.
And so how do you capture thoseexperiences, create memories?
It's how you shape your environment.
It was that tree and the shelter andthe lighting and the rustling of the
cottonwood tree was real special.
Um, so when you can create moments likethat by designing an environment, it's a

(12:56):
stage that people inhabit and have theseopportunities to create hospitality,
have your friends and family over.
And now you have this setting tocultivate these relationships.
And that's what you're really providing.

Mike (13:09):
Absolutely.
So are there particular questionsthat you ask people in a process to
understand the types of spaces theymight want to create those memories in?

Kirk (13:19):
Yes.
I ask where have you traveled?
What are some of your favorite places?
Do you have favorite memories?
Like I'll conjure up memories ofchildhood, like I mentioned just now.
What was it about thoseplaces that you remember?
Why do you remember it so fondly?
And you can actually pinpointit down to some of the ambience.
Thanks a ton.
Characteristics of the space.
Well, it was cozy.
It was intimate.
It was this color, that color,and they start associating colors

(13:43):
and textures, enclosure with theirfireplaces with that, Oh, that's like
the fireplace at grandma's house.
Yeah.
But whatever, there's that correlationto memories and you can translate
into physical features and howto build something that's similar
to that experience that they had.
So I like to start there.

Mike (14:01):
So creating those spaces creates a strong emotional sense
for the space, I would imagine.

Kevin (14:08):
Well, and by asking all those questions, you're giving your clients
something to really think aboutbecause I don't know that a lot of
them really know what to think about.
So it takes somebody asking thosequestions, getting into people's
heads, trying to understandwhere they're coming from.
It's a great process.

Kirk (14:22):
Yeah.
And it's kind of a get to know youa moment and get to know yourself.
I don't know.
Why do you, why did Ilike that place so much?
I can't put my finger on it.
And people have nostalgic memories aboutplaces they've been and if you can extract
the why, you can recreate those buttons.

Mike (14:36):
So when you go to a site, you talked about viewing
through the lens of a camera.
So are sight lines from insidethe house important to consider
when you're designing a space?

Kirk (14:49):
Yeah, I'll start at the curb, actually.
What's it even like toarrive at your home?
And what's that experience like?
And then if you're the house guest, youmight be coming through the front door.
What do you see?
What unfolds?
You know, if it's you, a lot of folkscome in through the garage and the
laundry room and the mud room orwhatever you have in your region.
And what does that experience like?
When do you finally first seethe glimpse of the backyard and.

(15:11):
What's the first thing?
Is it inviting?
And what do you seethrough certain windows?
Because that's 90 percent of yourexperience is from inside looking out.
So if you can nail those view corridorswith something worth looking at,
beautiful from the inside, and italso beckons you to come out and see
more as you get out of the house, gosee what's going on in the backyard.
Totally agree.
View corridors are huge.

Mike (15:31):
Do you get architectural plans to figure that out, or
do you actually measure it withsite measurements, or how do you

Kirk (15:37):
create that?
If it's an existing house, yeah, Imake a point to go to those places
in their home and take pictures.
So as I'm designing, I'm referencingback, hey, I'm standing in the
front door, here's what I saw,here's my view from the kitchen.
Making sure that I have photographyfrom the inside, looking out.
If a home doesn't existyet, I have to create it.
extrapolate that from just the drawingsand recognizing a lot of times I'll

(16:01):
influence the architecture of yourwindows, three feet to the left.
I'm not getting a complete view here, orI'm looking at the side of the garage.
Can we make that facademore interesting or have it
articulation or make it step back?
Cause that's a prominent, you're lookingat the side of the garage from this
viewport or from inside the house.
So we got to make it more interesting.
So I'll give architecturalfeedback a lot of times.

(16:22):
Noticing where doors and windowsare or should be, and you can
enhance the architectural processif you have good feedback that way.
And that's a lot of fun to getin there ahead of time and not be
stuck with what was handed to you.

Kevin (16:36):
Sure.

Kirk (16:36):
Half baked.

Kevin (16:37):
So you had mentioned something earlier about starting at the curb.
Are you generally doing complete propertyoverhauls where you're doing, I don't
mean the architectural stuff on thehouse, but recreating the landscaping,
obviously recreating the pool andultimately helping to create a place
and a space in the customer's yardthey want to spend all the time in.
Are you typically doing the whole thing?

(16:58):
No.
No.
No.

Kirk (16:58):
I am my workflow.
I'm no longer just designing the pool.
I'm, I'm really treating theentire site landscape architecture,
landscape design kind of mode forthe whole project whenever I can.

Mike (17:09):
So you're doing a complete master plan.
That's how I describe it.
So you're looking at everything fromthe side yards to the front yard to the
backyard, how they enjoy the whole space.

Kirk (17:20):
It's true.
Yeah.
And on that note, Ioften try to flesh out.
Are you building a guest house heresomeday, or in the near future, do you
need to work at home, or are you goingto build an outbuilding so you can work
at home, or a wood shop, or somethingthat you haven't told me about yet?
Oh yeah, actually, well that takesup a third of the yard over here.
Right.
No, and it's going to be this structure.
It's in the background.

(17:40):
Let's at least rough it in soit doesn't disrupt the flow of
everything else we have going.
So I really like to doa master plan approach.
Even if it's something that'shypothetical, it might be down the road.
So I think it's good design asif it were there all at once.

Mike (17:55):
You do a master plan.
These are conceptual drawingsand outworking drawings.
I would assume to start with, do you getinto material selections and structural
specifications and that type of thing?
Or do you just startwith the general concept?

Kirk (18:09):
General concept at first, space planning layouts.
I do ask him early on, what arethe materials you're fond of?
If there's already a house underway, what's your interior finishes,
what's your interior floor, and isthere still one on the fireplace or
is house try to carry that languagethroughout if it's a new build and they
haven't gotten there yet, I try to.
I listed that so I know, is it anedgy, clean, modern vibe or is it

(18:33):
more rustic and stone kind of vibe?
What's their, what are they goingfor crisp and modern architectural
or something earthy and organic?
You want to get the vibe fromthose materials early on and that
would just give you a direction.
We don't get specific till later, butat least you get a direction from that.
Just that little bit of Intel.

Mike (18:57):
So for the poolside perspective, podcast, vocabulary lesson of the
week, but we've got the word layout.

Kevin (19:04):
No, it's a great one.

Mike (19:05):
I had someone the other day asked me if this was about
sunbathing around the pool, right?
I said in an episode, not toolong ago, I went and did a layout.
So they were like, what were youdoing on the person's job site?
So how would you describe a layout?

Kevin (19:20):
So layout's going to be when your designer pool company
comes out, meets with you, lays thepool out on the ground with paint.
Oh, or graffiti or graffiti.
Yes.
It's not going to be perfect becausewe're basically looking for, is
this the pool shape that you wanted?
Is this location still look good?
You see, and even painted outline on theground, you know, helps people a lot.

(19:43):
Although I will tell you that over theyears, and maybe you can jump in here too.
Is that.
Almost everybody thinks the pool lookssmall when it's painted on the ground.
Almost always.
Yeah.

Mike (19:52):
And I've had two people in my career insist on making it bigger.
And one of them said, anytime that personwants to make it bigger, you can't have
them talk to me because you ended upbuilding Lake Tahoe in my backyard.
After they dug the pool, it was massive.

Kevin (20:07):
I think it's hard sometimes to get an idea of scale, and
that's one of the reasons we do it.
And I've even done itduring the design process.
Just meet a homeowner out there and say,you know, here's what I'm thinking, and so
now you can see it painted on the ground.
What are your thoughts?
Because it might be, yeah, you're righton target, or yeah, we're not thinking
that, so it saves a bunch of time.

Mike (20:24):
But it's too small.
It usually happens with people whenthey do the foundation of their house.
They say, well, this house is tiny.
Then they put the walls up and they'relike, oh, well, it is a big house.
And the same thing is a pool.
It's one dimensional.
Now it's three dimensional.
You know, so it makes a big difference.

Kevin (20:40):
Well, and as soon as it's dug, people go, it's huge.
Right.
So we started off with,wow, it's really small.
And then got into this thing'seven bigger than we thought.

Mike (20:49):
The reason you want to do a layout beforehand is so you can make
sure it's everything's right, becauseyou don't want to dig crude to show up.
And start digging a pool andthen be like, Oh, wait, time out.
This doesn't look like I want it to be.
So every company I've worked withthe last 20 years, we painted on
the ground and walk through it.

Kevin (21:08):
And that's the definition of a layout, just a preliminary pre
construction meeting, making sureif it is in fact pre construction.
Making sure the pool's laid out onthe ground in a fashion that you can
look at and go, that looks great.
When I introduced you in thebeginning, I did not let our audience
know where you are from as faras where you work out of mostly.
And I know you're from Phoenix becauseI lived in Phoenix for 30 years.

(21:30):
You spend a lot of time right there.
But do you do work outsideof the Phoenix area?

Kirk (21:34):
Yeah, I have done work abroad, some in the Bay Area and some remotely
in Arizona, done Arkansas and Ohio.
We spent some work there andsome Michigan where I'm from,
did some design work in Michigan.

Kevin (21:45):
So I asked Mike earlier, I said, is he a Spartan fan or a Wolverine fan?

Kirk (21:50):
I did, we got into the football.
I was too busy drawing architecture.

Kevin (21:53):
There you go.
It's a safe answer and a good answer.

Kirk (21:56):
That's awesome.
I was stuck at my drafting table.
I didn't follow it so much.
So

Mike (22:01):
do you still work on a drafting table or are you all computer aided design
at this point or do you do 3D modeling?
How do you work your process?

Kirk (22:12):
I bought a drafting cable six months ago that I haven't used yet, but I did buy
one that I haven't had one in 20 years.
Guys, I miss drawing by hand so bad.
Yeah.
It's really therapeuticand spontaneous and loose.
But I've gotten into a CADworkflow designing in 2D.
In a more precise way, I really likethe layers and being able to turn the

(22:33):
layers on and off guidelines, snapgrids, things that give me a framework
to cling to that's really useful.
So I'm, I'm to scale right off the bat.
When you draw by hand, you mightbudget a little and not be a scale
and not quite get the space planning.
You thought you could, andthen you got to redo it.
So I do like the accuracy of that though.
It is an impediment.

(22:53):
I am a bright brain guy.
I love the flow of hand drawings.
Yeah.
I use my CAD environmentlike a drafting table.
My CAD mentors chastise me allthe time that I'm not using the
layers of the classes correctly.
That I just want a drawingtool, leave me alone.
What do

Kevin (23:09):
you use for your 3D stuff?

Kirk (23:11):
I've been using full studio.
I would like to really becomemore proficient in SketchUp.
It's more, it's tighter.
It's more accurate.
You can export to CAD.
Environments.
You can do Lumion and Enscapeand Twinmotion, which is a more
beautiful rendering program.
But I've been using CoolStudiobecause it's such a quick interface.

(23:31):
That's addicting to be able to justliterally set boulders and scale them
and rotate them and manipulate them andpaint the grade to change the grade.
It moved the lighting around.
That's so inter, the interface is sorapid and addicting that way that it's
literally like you're creating it.
There's, I wish they would just,Hey guys, if you're listening,
make your program awesome.
Okay.
I've noticed

Kevin (23:51):
your pool studio plans and they're very good.
And yeah, that program,I totally agree with you.
It has its issues, but for thelay person, it's pretty good.
It's pretty easy to learn.

Kirk (24:01):
Yeah.
There's stuff that I'dlove to do in there.
Like in an inclined wall.
It's curving.
My mind can imagine it, butI can't do it in the program.
So those are just some thingsthat I do in that world.
So I'm having to bridge betweenmultiple programs to get the finished
product that I'd like to show.

Kevin (24:17):
Yeah, those compound curves are challenging.

Kirk (24:20):
Yeah.
So there you are some nitty gritty underthe hood information on drafting, but
then I've been looking at iPad sketchingthat I've wanted to learn more folio
trace as a tool that you can draw with.
And it's like trace paper drawingon the iPad, but it's digital.
So you can send an email offto somebody to approve and look
at it right from your iPad.
It's really nifty that way.

(24:41):
Wanting to delve into that some more too.
I want to get back to my roots ofhand drawing is what I'm saying.
Those are ways to do it.

Kevin (24:47):
Do you think that there is just maybe, there's something about
hand drawing that the consumer likesas an initial plan or what's, I hear
you because I feel the same way Iused to draw prolifically and I really
struggled with changing to pull studio.
And I did about 11 years ago whenI was with another company there.

(25:08):
And cause all the salespeople wereusing it and I was the sales manager.
I'm like, how can I Be the salesmanager, I don't even know how to operate
this program, but it was interestingbecause when I switched over from
hand drawing and a drafting table topool studio, I thought it was like
going from a blackberry to an iPhone.
It's like, why did I wait to your point?
It's a little rudimentary, but it'sa really good program and it's gotten

(25:30):
better, but there's definitely alot of glitches that I think we
all would like to see corrected.

Kirk (25:35):
Yeah, you know, it is very nice to be able to just throw it on
a rectangle and flip it in 3d andthere it is a pool pretty handy.
I think there is a, when you're drawingwith a pencil, you are not having
to think the interface between yourbrain and the pencil is effortless.
Just the pencil juststarts moving on the page.

Kevin (25:53):
Well, and you're so good at the perspectives.
That's probably a pretty quick andeasy way for you to show a consumer.
Yeah.

Kirk (26:00):
So it's very intuitive when you're having to flip through
menus to look through the tool todraw what you want to draw with.
There's four or five steps thatare like friction in the system.
Your mind knows what it wants to create,but you have to go through this left brain
channel to find the tool to draw it with.
It impedes the flow.
So the closer you can getto hand drawing, the more.

(26:21):
In the zone, you can beand just let it flow.
So that's what a lot of artists havereported about getting back to the basics.

Mike (26:28):
How do you feel about that, Mike?
Since I've never left thedrafting board, I like it.
So I draw everything by hand and then Ihave an assistant with everything in 3d.
So, that's how I work.
But I understand what you're saying.
My wife's been like,Oh, you need to switch.
And I'm like, 60?
No, I don't think so.
It's worked for me for a long time.
That's getting the job done.

(26:49):
It does sometimes.
But there's pros and cons,I'm sure, to every process.
But it's all about the tools thatyou're using, but it's how can you
put your creativity into documentationof what you're trying to express.
One of the things is our goal is to helpthe homeowners have a better process.
And so if you were to make recommendationsto them as they go through the

(27:11):
process, are there any particularthings you would recommend them to
do to end up with a good result?

Kirk (27:17):
I think if consumers knew better, they would seek out
landscape architects first todesign their outdoor living spaces.
Most homeowners don't givethemselves permission to do that.
They have an association.
These are even wealthy clientsthat I've had that have arrived
and can afford to do so.
They still have this mental,they're humble people.

(27:38):
They, the architects, that'sfor the rich and famous.
I'm a humble person.
I'm going to call a poolcompany to bypass that step and
just, ah, they'll know enough.
It'll be good enough.
And they don't realize that they'regetting a, maybe a salesperson who's
selling a built product, but nowthey're bypassing the design process.
The folks who are coming to youfrom a design build company may

(27:59):
not have the education in design.
To give you the artistry that's possible.
And they're jumping rightahead to nuts and bolts and
hydraulics and structural things.
They're all important, butthat condition happens a lot.
And if homeowners gave themselvespermission, Hey, let's do something
really artful and beautiful and build it.
What would that look like?
And they would be.

(28:20):
Seeking out a person who is firstartistically minded, but who knows
how to build and it can be built.
So who is that person?
And it's more of a landscapearchitectural mindset and core knowledge.
So they're dealing with thewhole environment and the pool
is part of that environment.
You're dealing with the plantmaterial and the structures.
That really has become my approachto the outdoors, specializing in

(28:44):
pools cause that's where I came from.
And so everything is integrated.
So that's my advice and seeksomebody who has that integrated
vision of the landscape is the peak.
It's the flower arrangement in the spaceand then work back towards the pool
has to nestle in and be part of that.
Don't let the pool dominate the sceneand Oh, good luck with the rest.
Fill it in with thelandscape, whatever's left.

(29:06):
There are folks that do have that mindset.
If you look for it, you'll find it.
As in everything else, that's howyou really should approach it.
And that's the epiphany that a lotof owners have is when I show them
that process, they're like, why wouldI fill my whole space with the pool?
And now I can't even bring in a treethat I wanted to, it's an obvious
thing once they see the sequence.
So.

(29:26):
Lead with the landscape and it's anuphill stream with a lot of builders
because I'm staying in my lane.
I'm a pool builder.
I'm not a landscape guy.
I don't want to start a wholenew business around landscape.
Okay, we'll partner with somebody whowill be your companion in the project.
You're team building now.
If you don't want to be a landscapecontractor or designer or builder, partner
with somebody to go in with you who is.

(29:48):
And now you can go in as a unit and ateam and create a spectacular environment.
That you could not do by yourself.

Mike (29:55):
So you mentioned in some other podcasts, other team members that you've
brought in other than just landscapers.
Can you elaborate on that?

Kirk (30:03):
Yeah.
Oh, a favorite recent jamLennox Moyer and lighting.
Yes.
Holy cow.
That's.
A whole nother world of awesome,which ties back to photography.
I had a glimpse of it in photographyand working with Mike Woodall,
my photographer, all those years.
So seeing that applied to landscapelighting, there was a person, a
light manufacturer, said this phrase.

(30:24):
And it's apropos, we said, yeah,talking about landscapers who would
stall lighting their fixture planters.
They treat fixtures like plants.
Look, they have no idea howit affects the environment.
What light should it be?
How does it aim?
Oh, there's a tree.
I should put a light.
Boom.
There's a tree.
I should put a light.
Boom.
How big is the tree?
Do you need it from behind the tree,around the tree, hanging out of the tree?

(30:44):
There's four or five tree fixturesyou might need, not just one.
The art of lighting in the final analysisis how you see the project at night.
Hello, that's when they're out there most.
Yes, sir.
And if you light it, cross lighting,backlighting, downlighting, all of
these different techniques that youcan learn from photography and film can
really make a dramatic setting insteadof just blasting it with a floodlight.

(31:08):
And it looks horrid.
So yeah, lighting is a whole otherrabbit hole of awesomeness that can
be achieved if you have someone whouse it as an art form and not just as
throwing lights out on in the generalvicinity of where they ought to go.
If you don't aim it right,it's a failed effort.
Well,

Kevin (31:23):
the lighting is really another science in the, in and of itself.
And as we've talked about on oneof the other podcasts, the there's
Lance or there's lighting engineers.
So, to your point, they'remanaging and putting all that
light in the best place possible.

Kirk (31:39):
There's the technical aspect of lighting, but there's the, it's
like civil engineering and landscape.
Civil engineering, there's verytechnical, we need a ditch to get
the water to flow from here to here.
But it's a really ugly ditch,but it works, but you know, the
landscape guy will have the artistic.
Well, if we undulate the terrain andweave it in and out and have some
retaining boulders and some foliage,it'll look more like a dry creek bed.

(32:02):
And it's more, it's not just a straightchannel you cut through the earth.
They both function the same,but one looks a lot better.
So the artistic side of lightingis, should you put steps in
risers or lights in risers?
Only if you must, butyou see them everywhere.
There's just these strip, theselittle blip, blip, blip, blip,
blip lights going upstairs.
It's horrid.

(32:22):
Try to light it from above.

Kevin (32:24):
Well, that's probably part of the conversation that goes on.
Do you want lights on your steps?
Yes, I do.
Okay.
We'll plug in six lights on yoursteps and end the discussion.
It's X amount of dollarsand you're moving on.
You're looking at it from a differentperspective altogether, which
is we're going to really look atwhat's the best way to do this.

Kirk (32:39):
Lighting it.
So you don't see the fixtures.
But somehow it's illuminated.
That's the prize in lighting is thatyou don't want to see the fixtures.
You just want to see the lighting itself.
It takes effort to do that.
Yes, it does.

Mike (32:52):
You can make the highlights be seen and make all the other things disappear.
That's the cool thing too, about lightingat night with the neighbors and all
the other things that are going around.

Kirk (33:05):
There's things you can do with lighting that take people's breath away.
Just do it.
cross lighting, revealingthe texture of something.
If you just light it straighton, it just blasted and it's,
Oh yeah, it's illuminated.
But if you light it from the side, nowall the texture, whatever was in that.
Comes out because you see theshadowing in the depth and the crevices
and it's enhanced and a lot moredramatic and it's better than life.
You wouldn't see that in the day,but at night it's an opportunity.

(33:28):
So if you light it right, itcan really stop people in their
tracks when you light it right.
And until you show them, it'svery difficult to communicate.
Good way to do it is just to go lightit and show them and say, now what
fixtures do you want me to, you know, but.
If you have good photographsthat illustrate that, those work.
It's a very visual art form for sure.

Mike (33:45):
What other members are on your team that you collaborate with?

Kirk (33:49):
Interior designers, a big, untapped, important area is.
Site furnishings.
A good way to ruin a project is togo to Costco and just grab whatever
was in the showroom and throw iton your half a million, whatever,
your million dollar backyard.
And yeah, we were at today's patio andthis was on clearance and it all matches
and plunk and you just drop it in.
And it's just, Oh my gosh, how doyou ruin a 300, 000 sports car?

(34:13):
Has he put crappy tires on it?
Or if the wheels are out of balance,that little piece of lead on the rim
that keeps the wheels in perfect balance.
experience of that vehicle, good or bad.
Furniture is the interfacebetween you and the site.
Finally end up sittingin and experiencing.
So it is the most human part ofthe scene is the furniture that you

(34:35):
finally approach and touch and sit on.
So it needs to be shapely in the samestyle of the shapes that are in the yard.
A very square rectangular yard mightwant a little square and rectangular
patio furniture that has the same shapes.
Likewise, that furniture wouldlook odd in a curvaceous.
Design and have this blocky squarefurniture that would look out of place.

(34:59):
And then, so having interior designerswho have access to this plethora of
what's available, they've seen it all.
They know the quality of the product.
They can get it there on timeand deliver it and unveil it.
Fabrics and the colors of the fabrics.
The biggest pop of color is inthe fabrics in a whole yard.
A lot of times.
A lot of folks would say, yeah,give me a subdued palette.

(35:19):
Beiges and lights and whites and grays,but where might there be some color?
In the fabrics, in the pillows.
So having people with, uh, Exposureto the fabric choices and the colors.
That's the finishing touch.
And if you don't do that,it's missing something huge.
So I really like havingfolks to flesh that out.

Kevin (35:37):
So Kirk, do you have a favorite project that you've done?
And the reason I'm asking is part of whatwe want to do with the guests that are
on the show is we want to showcase a poolon our website, obviously tied with your
contact information for everybody else.
But do you have a poolthat you could talk about?
That's, man,

Kirk (35:51):
I really smoked this one.
This one is a great one.
What are the projects?
Corbino.
What's the name?
And if you're watching thisvisually, it's my background.
It was way out on the east side of town,up in the mountains, at the edge of
town, and their lot was just, had beenjust nestled into this desert context.
And they had this hill in theirbackground, just off their site, that

(36:12):
was a couple hundred feet high if that.
Rams and eagles would love to climbon, and it's like a TV commercial.
They just sit on the top of that mountain.
And it just happened to be the rightdistance and the right location that
it's reflected in the swimming pool.
And it's just dramatic.
The site was so pristineand desert and raw.
My goal was, there was noenclosure around that site, yet.

(36:32):
It was just an open lot.
So my challenge to self was, Iam not going to cage them in with
site walls and property walls.
You have to have a fence, of course.
So we're going to do a rebar fencethat's invisible to the eye and
just weaves in and out of natural.
I'm going to bring the desertpallet of plant material right into
the space up to the water's edge.

(36:54):
So there's no hard edge of where.
The desert palette ends andthe manicured interior gets a
very transitioned experience.
The more manicured desert stuff is rightagainst the house where it's orderly
and then it fades into the desert.
There's no abruptjarring experience there.
When you sit down in this yard yourblood pressure just drops and you sink

(37:15):
into the chair and you It's so hardto get up when it was time to leave.
We literally had to extract herselffrom the chairs around the fire pit.
And it was just a, it's anamazing site to be there.
This East off dynamite.
This is way East out atsuperstition mountains.
Oh, way East.
So gold Canyon area, that area.
Oh, Canyon.
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's beautiful out there.
And the clients were lovely.

(37:36):
They were just so graciousand so kind and very.
They called me because we wantsomething beautiful and we saw your
handiwork and that's what we want.
So our kinship was in that regard wasjust make something extraordinary for me.
Do your work.

Kevin (37:50):
So you've been in the business at least 25 years, maybe longer.
I'm just going back to when I firstmet you at any rate, going back to
when you got into the industry andyou've spent this last 25 years,
where do you see our industry going?
What are some of the things you thinkthat would make our industry even better?
Cause again, part of what Mike and Iare doing, sharing information, we want

(38:13):
to see the industry continue to grow.
There's a whole group of youngerdesigners and builders and guys out there.
They're just doing some phenomenaldesign work, different than what you
do, different than what Mike does,but they're still really nice pools.
But if we were to look atmoving forward, how does the
industry continue to get better?
Cause it has definitely morphedin the last 10, 15 years.

Kirk (38:32):
I think what has not been working for the last couple decades that I've
tried to resolve was everyone has beenhyper, we call it, you're trained in
your lane and you stay in your lane.
I'm a pool person and Idon't get out of my lane.
What is the finished environment?
It's landscape, it's lighting, it'sfurniture, it's pools, it's architecture.

(38:53):
So if you want a five starfinished environment, all of those
elements have to work togetherand you can't leave anything out.
Well, I'm just a pool person.
You either need to expand yourknowledge or assemble a team.
to hit all of those quadrants.
I would say, I would hope that theindustry is recognizing that, and outdoor
living as a whole is becoming more ofan understanding of what has to happen.

(39:18):
So there's firms that are pool andlandscape companies, and they're doing
landscape not because they have to, butbecause there's somebody in house who's a
green thumb who just, it's a plant nerd.
There's a difference.
There's, oh, we're here, we may as well.
There's plant people that knowhorticulture and really, they just
go on and on about this particularplant grows in this conditions.
And this isn't, you need those peopleon your staff and to work with you.

(39:40):
If you are not that person yourself.
So building the team to finish thewhole environment, I think is where the
industry needs to go because that's whatour clients are really coming to us.
They assume that's whatwe're going to give them.
And that, A pool guy just,Oh, there's your pool.
Good luck with the rest of the yard.
That's a disaster.
I mean, how many times do peoplebuild bull pools in their lifetime?
Don't screw it up.
They've only got one or two times, maybethree that they're going to do this.

(40:03):
Sometimes it's one do it.
Well, you got to have all ofthose quadrants working together.

Mike (40:08):
So how did you learn?
All those quadrants, becausewhen you started, you had the
architecture background and thenyou started in the pool industry.
I've listened to the podcast aboutsome of how you first originally
started, but how did you branch out andlearn all those different processes?
Or are you just still workingwith heavy with a team?

Kirk (40:29):
Yeah, I'm still, the things that I'm acquiring presently are
the landscape plant knowledge.
My mentor and cohortin that realm retired.
So I'm trying to fill his shoes, butalso bring in people who know that trade.
Cause my path was architecture first,drawing art, photography, first
architecture was my main vehicle.

(40:50):
Then.
Big bump ended up in swimming pools,but had an architectural mindset.
So I was designing the wholespace from the beginning.
I was even chastised by my first employer.
It's nice of you to draw the whole yard,but we don't build that move on, you
know, just get in there and do the pool.
And he was trying to do me a favor tomake more money and make him more money.
How can I figure out the pool if I haven'tdrawn where the kitchen, the barbecue go?

(41:13):
So I was already doing that early.
Cause I was looking at it froma mindset of architecturally.
Globally looking at the whole space.
I had been exposed to Japanesegardens in college and my travels
and saw what that was like.
So that was in the backof my mind marinating.
And as I worked in the poolindustry, we finally started
teaming up with a landscape company.
That pairing helped usdeliver complete projects.

(41:34):
We didn't do it in house, but we had asister company that we just referred back
and forth all the time and that exposuregrew there and that's, that persisted
because of that, I always worked ata pool company, but I had a landscape
contractor that I worked alongsideme with, and that was my process.
Morgan Holt, Earth Art Landscape,thank you, was a big mentor 12 years.

(41:54):
And I do a design and he critique it andmanipulate it so that the landscape, he
could have his Domain to do his magic.
Hey, you didn't leave me enough room.
My guy, I need a planter.
That's at least this big to plantsomething here, back off a little on the
pool by 18 inches, and I can do this.
Okay.
So we collaborated on the space together.
I learned that from him.
And then a recent ad hasbeen Jan with the lady.

Kevin (42:16):
Yeah.
So you can definitely pick up some thingsby collaborating with other people.
around the industry indifferent various sciences.
And that's something that I dida lot of over the years because
I just like people anyway.
But that's a great way to learn.
In addition to the educationalopportunities in the industry,
collaborating with others andfinding some mentors or finding some

(42:38):
people to run things by is good.

Kirk (42:41):
Otherwise you're in a vacuum and better to learn from
OPE, other people's experience.

Mike (42:45):
So you teach a class now through Genesis and have done
so for about three years now?

Kirk (42:52):
Two and a half.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was given a two day platformto just do your method.
How do you do it?
So outdoor living is an art form.
It's been a class I put together.
It's just, if I show upon a site, how do I start?
And I work, I realized I had a 12step sequence that I worked through.
The Bianchi method, 12 steps.
And if you do it in this order,What comes out the other end is

(43:13):
pretty much approximately thesequence you need to go through.

Kevin (43:16):
One of the challenges I find with processes is some
people are just in a big hurry.
And so you're trying to slow them downa little bit and say, look, there's a
lot to consider here, but it dependson time of year, depends on so many
different factors, but we all haveour processes, but sometimes people
just don't want to do the process.
They just give me a number, give me apull, and that's not really my thing.

(43:37):
It's not yours either.
I know, and clearly not yours.

Kirk (43:40):
Yeah.
And if that's a client putting thatkind of pressure on, I just say, Do
you realize what you're spending here?
Do you want, or do youwant to get it right?
Yeah.
You're only do this once, right?
It's a lot more expensive to make amistake and tear it out than to slow
it down and really think it through.
Absolutely.
They tend to relax.
Yeah.
Let's just do this once and doit right and have it be awesome.

(44:01):
It'll be worth the wait.
But the thing about that 12 stepprocess, a lot of folks maybe do that
process, but the order in which theydo it is wrong and leads to the wrong.
If you sequence things correctly,like I said, put the landscape in
first, at least the major elements, ittells you where the pool isn't going.
As you've already claimed thatyard, the focal point areas, you

(44:23):
have to claim early in the yard.
Otherwise the pool is goingto dominate and take over.
And if you don't claim that turf for theflower arrangement, if you will, it's
going to get displaced by something elselike hardscape or a pool or something.
A barbecue.
So the sequence and the order in whichyou do things and what comes out at
the end will be totally different justby how you do things in what order.

(44:45):
That's been the nut, the crux ofmy class is going through that.
The first half of my class looks at arthistory, looks at art and photography,
composition principles and shows you the,it's called the gestalt psychology of
your brain and how it functions and howyour eye reads instantaneously a scene.
looking for the negativespace in order to navigate.

(45:07):
Your eye is already be clustering thingstogether, grouping things together, so
that you can, if you had to make a dashfor it, you could know where to go.
Mental process, if you understand it,will help you to order your concepts and
your construction and your compositionsin a way that's pleasing to the eye.
To do that, instead ofmaking it a jumbled mess.

(45:28):
You want there to be a cohesivearrangement that is pleasing to the eye.
If you know those principles,you can work with them.
That's the first half of myclass, is just how you even

Kevin (45:37):
See,

Kirk (45:39):
once you see it, you can't unsee it.
Cause now it was like, holy crap, I'vebeen looking at this way for so long.
And now I see this pattern, thisrelationship between heights and widths.
It's a little bit OCD.
Once you turn it on,it's hard to turn it off.
But when you have that, and then youhave the sequence and you put them
together, that's how I do what I do.

Mike (45:56):
Gotcha.
So there's a lot of famous artiststhat have used that principle.

Kirk (46:01):
Yeah.
There's stuff you can pull from theRenaissance and the underlayment, the
grids, the diagonals that they putinto their paintings that are hidden,
but they use it as a framework to layout their sketches and then apply the.
Paint the canvas.
They didn't impromptu go up tothe canvas and start painting.
Oh, it's a masterpiece.
They labored over the layoutand the structure and the form.
You see it in their sketches and there'sdiagonal lines and frames and ellipses

(46:26):
and triangles and stuff that's in there.
It's been arranged in advance andthen they filled in those shapes with
the people and whatever it is they'recomposing and you go to a painting.
You don't know it's there.
It's somebody shows you and thenyou go, Oh my gosh, there it is.
Then you appreciate thecraft of what they did.
How tedious that was, but that'swhy their work is somehow elevated.

(46:46):
There's something youcan't put your finger on.
Why is this so pleasing?
Oh, it's cause forming this trapezoidshape and this ellipse coming together.
It's there in the composition hidden.
And if you start employing thoseframeworks, you can use it in
your landscape and pool design.
People will have the same reaction.
I don't know why I love it, but I just do.
You're a magician.
Awareness.

(47:06):
It's fun.

Mike (47:06):
So when you go through a process with somebody.
What's, uh, clients are always asking,well, how long is this going to take?
Cause they're impatient.
They want to get rolling on theirthings, but your process, just
give us a feel for timeline thatmight be involved or something.

Kirk (47:23):
Historically, just my own business, my own workflow.
If a client size up, I typically,I say for the last 20 years, I've
had a two to three month lead time.
I've got the work I'm working on andthen the work of doing your work.
So that's just my own.
Speed of production.
Sometimes I should delegateand get out of my own way.
I don't know.

Kevin (47:40):
That's part of the beauty of it is that you stay
engaged from start to finish.
And I think that's profound.

Kirk (47:47):
I'm I'm on job sites a lot, just helping nurture the
things along and noticing thingsand that nobody else can see.
And I'm just there to help.
And it's not a, it doesn'tderail the process.
It's there to help and muchbefore things go, right.
You know, if a tree's coming in, Hey,did we turn it just the right angle?
Yeah, that's it.
Blend it.
Plant it.
Go.
Stuff like that.
You can't put that on a plan.

(48:08):
And it makes all the difference.
And so there's times where I'm,I have to be on a job site that
I can't be designing at my desk.
And that's, of course, the tree wasscheduled with the crane to show up
on Monday, it got bumped to Thursday.
So my whole week got rearranged.
So the time that I was sitting theredrawing, rearranged, because you have
to prioritize the construction, bootson the ground, events happening that.

(48:29):
You only got one shot, be there.
Yeah.
So it's that constant push and pullbetween bringing it to fruition in
the field and okay, going back anddoing a design makes it interesting.
No doubt.
In a good way.
It's fun.
It's dynamic.
It never gets old.
It's not boring.
Cause I'm getting to see itcome to fruition and participate
with the crews and the teams.
That's so rewarding.

(48:50):
If I were just stuck there drawing andnever got to see it come to fruition
or worse, I go out, see it go together.
That's.
Oh my gosh, it's so many thingsthat got missed that could have
been improved or I've done that.
I've experienced that and it's so painful.
I just can't hand off my designs.
Good luck, right?
Just know you lose 20 percentor more of the impact at least.

(49:12):
And that's a big deal.

Kevin (49:13):
Because you care about your job.
Yeah.

Kirk (49:15):
It's those subtle details that really make it sting.
If you don't, it's approximate.
I tell folks, I tell clients areally good plan is no better
than a Mona Lisa paint by number.
It's a framework.
The bringing it to life is reallythe guy putting the paint on the
canvas and blending the colors, hisability to pull it all together.
Yeah, you have a great plan, but theexecution of that plan with the subtleties

(49:39):
of, Layouts and tile and plant placement.
And there's parts of the plan thatare rigid and dimensional and it
is what it is, but the other partsthat are more organic and how they
weave together, you can only do thatby being there or having that eye.
And so I've resigned myself thatI'm in the shield and to bring
about the work that I've done.
I'm okay with that.

(50:00):
That's my skill.

Kevin (50:01):
I like being in the field too.
And I know you do too, Mike.

Mike (50:03):
It's the joy of seeing, like you said, the whole thing come together.
That's what's fun about what we do is.
We don't have to sit and wait threeand four years as you work on a
project to see it come to fruition.
Usually within a year's period oftime, something we dreamed up in our
head for these people, it's builtand they get to enjoy and love it.

(50:25):
And the response for them is whatfeeds, I think it does with you as well.
Just the joy people haveof living in their spaces.
For sure.
It is.
It's very rewarding.
So the question of the day,this is really important.
The questions of the day, that'sone thing we want your input on.

(50:48):
And so on the website, we have a sectionfor you to go in and ask questions that we
haven't addressed at this point in time.
And in fact, my wife says weneed to give away some things.
So you know, people will sendtheir questions in because they're
thinking, ah, well, I don'twant to bother sending that in.
We really want to do answerquestions for people.
So.
Send your questions in, we'llgive you some recognition for it

(51:11):
and, you know, also probably getyou some kind of cool stuff too.

Kevin (51:16):
Maybe a t shirt or a hat.
Yeah.
Or who knows what.
Yeah.

Mike (51:20):
So we had a question from Nick and Nick wrote in from Keller,
Texas and Nick wanted to know, dowe do all of our work in house?

Kevin (51:32):
Oh, that's a good question.

Mike (51:33):
There's different ways that people set up their business model to.
Do work as in construction work, I'mguessing is what Nick is referencing.
Yep.
And so some people choose todo, I worked for Jeremy Appools
out in Sacramento, California.
We did everything in houseand we had fourth generation

(51:55):
employees that worked for us.
We had three generations on one deck crew.
Wow.
Okay.
So we had a lot of peoplethat were really skilled.
at their situation, and webuilt probably 400 pools a year.
So, we were building a lotof pools back in the 90s.
There was two things that wedidn't do in house, and one was

(52:17):
the pool finish, uh, because we didplaster and we did pebble sheen.
So we didn't do that in house.
And then we also did notdo auto covers in house.
That was somebody else that did that.
But other than that, wedid everything in house.
That's impressive.
So it took a very large organizationof hundreds of people, tons of

(52:38):
trucks and things like that.
But this was a company that just now.
This last year turned a hundred years old.
And that a huge investmentin that situation.
Mike did a great job.
Mike Jeremiah.
That's what I meant.
Yes.
But I'm sure you did a great job.
Mike Jeremiah taught mea lot of what I know.
So the cool thing is.
There was not as broad of a spectrumof requirements on materials

(53:04):
to be used during those times.
We had 12 tiles to pick from.
Sure.
Times are different.
We had basically one deck type thatwas used, which was a aggregate deck
and it was cantilevered over allthe way to the edge of the pool.
And we did a lot of boulder work orprecast and that was basically it.
So there was not as many skillsets or needed the hydraulics,

(53:26):
the steel, the gunite.
We did all those things in house.
So there's some people that dothat, but that takes a large
investment to do all that in house.
If you're going to have somepeople that are specialized or.
You could have do it in house, butyou have to have a person that's
skilled at a lot of different things.

Kevin (53:44):
Sure.
And that's one business model.
Another business model is somecompanies operate literally as brokers.
They're brokering a transactionbetween them and their vendors.
And the homeowner.
And so they have somebody comingin from outside the organization.
And then there would be the hybridsthat do some of the stuff in house and
then contract some of the other things.
And the point is there's some things thatdon't make any sense to do in house for

(54:08):
most companies because of the investmentand the capital required in order to
do it in Phoenix, most pool companiesthere don't do a whole lot in house.
We have a lot of captive sub contractorsas I like calling them trade partners.
Cause they're, I neverconsidered them subs to us.
They just, they're part of the team.
And so there's lots ofdifferent ways to do this.

(54:30):
And it's a good question to ask yourdesigner, how does your company operate?
There's those that say, well, if youdo everything in house, it's easy to
cover up your mistakes, maybe, but atthe same time you got outside people.
There's just, I don't think in this case.
There is a best way it is basedgeographically to some degree because
people in the Northeast do a lot ofstuff in house It sounds like Northern

(54:50):
California is the same way and thendepending on the type of pool Obviously,
we haven't even gone down this roadof the different types of pools But
if we're talking concrete pools likewe're talking about, yeah, there's
a lot of different ways to do it

Mike (55:00):
Well, in some parts of the country, they build all three types.
They do fiberglass, theydo vinyl, they do concrete.
So the skillsets to do all thosethings are a little bit different.
If you have a larger company,sometimes they can specialize.
You have particular people thatdo something at a very high
degree of level and skillset.
And so if your demands are.

(55:23):
to do very unique things.
Sometimes it's better to deal with aspecialist versus somebody that's not
done something every day and has thediversity to do a lot of different things,
but they usually do one thing really welland some other things they do okay at.
Again, it depends on the part ofcountry that you're working in

(55:43):
and the amount of projects thatyou're, have people working on.
Absolutely.
So there's a lot ofdifferent ways to handle it.
There's some ideal ways, itdepends on where you're at.

Kevin (55:55):
And most companies, I think are going to try to figure out
what's best for them and based upontheir clientele and their location.
Absolutely.

Mike (56:01):
Thanks for the question.
Thanks.
So I understand you're teaching a classright now, but in 2024, what's the plans?
Anything new beyond just teachingthe one class you're doing?

Kirk (56:14):
I'm almost days away from launching a mentorship component to my teaching.
That's one on one.
I'm wanting to work with designers whoare either starting out or advanced.
It doesn't matter.
I'd love to be able to roll up thesleeves and do hands on mentoring, like
a fresh project that you're working on.
So that's going to be the capacity.

(56:34):
It's not ideally taking the class thatI've prepared as a primer, give you
the vocabulary and the principles.
But the new addition is going to be thenbe, okay, let's do one on one coaching
with a project that you've got in thequeue, we'll design it together, apply
the principles, the holds your handthrough the process, help you prepare
your presentation and take it back to theclient and can't wait to hear how it goes.

Kevin (56:57):
So for designers that are listening, and this is
why we queued you up for this.
Designers that are listening,you are offering a service to
help them elevate their game.

Kirk (57:07):
Exactly.
Be a mentor to them intheir design process.
We love it.
I've really enjoyed the teaching andI see the need to follow up because
there's so much I'm cramming into thatclass that, you know, it's my last
30 years of experiences, you know,well, that's a lot to try to cram in
to a case study in a two day class.
So if you want to make it stick, Ireally want to follow up with one on one.

(57:28):
Mentoring and coaching, and we can go, youknow, bring a project that you're working
on, hopefully before you've presentedanything so we can do it together, I'll
hold your hand through that process.

Kevin (57:39):
So if there is somebody out there listening, what's the best
way for them to get ahold of you?

Kirk (57:44):
For the moment, just I use my email, Kirk at biakidesign.
com.
In the near future, I'm goingto have a page on my website.
That's biakidesign.
com forward slash coaching.
That'll be in the nearfuture to have that launched.
Okay.
Well, it's not there yet, but justreach out to me by my cell phone 480 234
2854 or my email kirk at bianchidesign.

(58:06):
com.

Kevin (58:07):
And you work primarily in Phoenix other than you do some work
outside of Phoenix, if it makes sense.

Kirk (58:13):
Yeah.
And Zoom is unreal.
We can do work all overthe world together.
So send me plans, send me pictures.
We'll get on Zoom together andwe'll, we'll do this virtually.
Doesn't matter where you are, bring meyour projects and I'll help you out.

Mike (58:26):
One thing, also, there's unique things to the area that you're working in.
So we're talking to designers in somedifferent geographic locations in the
United States, and is there particularthings that someone, if they're working
on a project, should think about oracknowledge as they go through their
process that's helpful for them tounderstand that's unique to your area?

Kirk (58:47):
I think some of the advantages in Phoenix are we don't have
the freeze thaw challenges andour soil is mostly very stable.
That helps.
We don't have a lot of expansivesoil, which is in most of Phoenix,
like some areas of the country.
But just from the overall site design,like the principles that we would
be discussing in my design classstill hold true wherever you are.
Here I have a desert palette with reallysculptural specimens that I can lean on.

(59:11):
But the goal is if we're.
Trying to do that in your area.
Well, what plant material would workin your area to create that same iconic
bonsai effect in their yard, you know?
So just becoming familiar with yourplant palette in your area, that'd be
part of our working together is to comeup with some of those sculptural things.
And then you'll have aworking list that you can use.

(59:31):
We'll apply the same principles,whether it's in Arizona or abroad, to
creating these really beautiful spaces.

Kevin (59:37):
Speaking of abroad and outside of Arizona, I mean, Mike and I talk
about this a lot because we're bothare, you know, DFW area is huge.
There's lots of work here.
Neither one of us have any desireto go out and about and get out
away from here because there'sjust too much to go on here.
And part of that has to do with the factthat both him and I are wired similarly.
And that we want to be on jobs.
So if a job is halfway aroundthe world or halfway across the

(59:59):
country, how do you handle that?
Cause I mean, as you said earlier, aswe all agreed, we like being on jobs.
We like to make sure they're comingout the way that we want them to.

Kirk (01:00:08):
The few that I've done, the budget allowed for me to fly out at milestones.
And it also was with taking theright pictures and also just even
FaceTiming, walking through the space.
It's surprising what you can see fromthose technological aids that we have.
Yeah.
So that's been tremendous help,but yeah, it's great to just
apply out at certain milestones.

Mike (01:00:28):
Anything in closing that you'd like to add?

Kirk (01:00:31):
That's about it.
If you're gearing up for an awesome24, do look me up directly or any help
you want with the coaching or lookfor that to come on my website soon.

Kevin (01:00:39):
Excellent.
So we want to thank Kirk Bianchifor being on the show today.
Another industry designer that'sjust at the top of his game.
We very much appreciate you.

Kirk (01:00:48):
Thank you for that.
It's a real passion of mine andit's great to have that recognized.
I love giving that so that I reallyappreciate your acknowledgement and it
keeps me fueled up and wanting to do more.
Thank you guys for having me.

Kevin (01:01:00):
We'll see you down the road.
Yes, sir.
So Mike, it was greathaving Kirk Bianchi on here.
I know that there was somequestions that we had and just some
clarification that we were going to do.
But at the end of the day,Really enjoyed having him on.
Did you have any thoughts?

Mike (01:01:12):
Oh, from a designer, he's one of the best in the country on how
he takes a space and develops it.
I think that it's such key how hetalks about the views and his space.
And the other thought is, which is reallycritical because we just had an episode
come out recently on small spaces and how.
That you treat a small space and hisdesign process and having the key areas

(01:01:37):
incorporated what I call the big rocks,you got to put them in place first and
make sure the space works and you'vegot enough room for plants, you've
got enough room for entertainment,you've got the key things that then
you with what's left in the smallspace, that's where you put the water.
So it's quite different thanwhat most people think about.

Kevin (01:01:57):
It seemed like it was more reverse in a sense that you were designing
all the ancillary things around theproject, the yard, and then figuring
out what space you had left for the pooland then designing the pool to that.
So you had everything in the space.

Mike (01:02:12):
Yeah.
Then it all works.

Kevin (01:02:13):
Yeah, it was great.

Mike (01:02:14):
So the other thing that he talked about some is just how he
incorporates with a group of people.
To put together a collaboration, thelighting and the landscaping and the
pool part, which I think is really greatbecause there's a lot of people that
come to the table with certain skills.
But very few have all theskills at a very high level.

(01:02:36):
And so that was really insightful forsomeone that's new in the industry or
someone that's been at it for a while andwants to have a more complete setup and a
complete finished product for the clients.

Kevin (01:02:48):
And I think one of the other questions he brought up was, well,
actually he brought up the ideathat, cause we asked him if you're
going to hire somebody to do a planfor you, how would you do that?
And he suggested hiringa landscape architect.
And you and I have talked aboutthis a lot because you went to
school to be a landscape architect.
We just got off a episode where JasonBrownlee was a landscape architect.

(01:03:11):
And I think the point really was.
that you want to find somebody thathas some experience doing this.
And a lot of landscape architects,to your point, which we talked about
when you were in school, you didn'tnecessarily do a lot with pool design.
Did you?

Mike (01:03:24):
Oh no, never.
So most landscape architectsare trained to do.
Industrial and commercialand golf course design.
Very few of them actuallydeal on the residential scale.
Right.
And so we talked to Kurt to justmake sure we weren't misrepresenting
what he was trying to say.
But what he was trying to say is you wantsomeone that can create a master plan that

(01:03:47):
has the skillset to put all that together.
And one thing that's nice is landscapearchitects do understand vision and the
things, all the components put together.
But a lot of times it's difficultfor them to work in the residential
scale because they're used toworking in a totally different
scale and putting spaces togetherand small yards are very intimate.

(01:04:08):
And so a lot of them don'thave a lot of pool experience
or outdoor living experience.
And so in an ideal world, you wantsomeone that can create a master plan.
that has all those experiences,which quite honestly, I'm not
a licensed landscape architect.
I studied that, but I can't usethat title and neither is Kurt.

(01:04:30):
And I think Jason just recently gothis license reinstated, which he
didn't have for a number of years.
You want someone that has the skillsto put all the pieces together.

Kevin (01:04:41):
So the point was that to what Mike's saying, and even Kirk to some
degree, Is that a landscape architect,it's probably going to be, we're used
to working on very large scale projectsversus a single residential house.
And so in the team concept we'retalking about, you've got a pool
designer, Mike, myself, Kirk, Jason,anybody else, but then the team might

(01:05:02):
be a lighting, a Janet Moir, youmight bring a landscaper in, somebody
that does hardscapes, whatever else,unless you're capable of doing it all.
And some people are fairly capable ofdoing most of it, if not all of it.
Okay.

Mike (01:05:13):
But whatever your weaknesses, the fun thing about this industry
is everybody brings a strengthto what they do, but there's also
something that you're not good at.
The cool thing is you can put ateam together like Kirk was talking
about that can put everythingin place for the homeowner.
If you've got someone that'scoordinating all the juggling all the

(01:05:36):
balls, I could say that's the personthat puts together the master plan.
Yeah.

Kevin (01:05:40):
Yeah.
And I love that concept.
Actually not a concept,but just that whole.
saying of collaboration by association,because that's how we learn is we go
to these classes, we meet other peoplefrom other parts of the country, you
know, in yours, in my case, cause we'redoing the podcast, we can talk to other
people from outside this particularmarketplace, but at the end of the day,
there's no way any one person can knoweverything about every single market.

(01:06:03):
And so having a team in place, doingthe collaboration by association
makes all the sense in the world.

Mike (01:06:08):
So one thing that was really cool was Kurt's passion for education
and trying to help other people.
And he even talked about mentoring peopleon an individual basis and being able
to adapt the things that he does inArizona to other parts of the country.
So that'll be a funjourney for some people.

Kevin (01:06:26):
And what I found is over the years is that the people that go to education.
that have gotten certifications.
They see the value in it becausethey've done it and they've learned.
And it's really the people that have yetto even participate or go or even try it.
That is a little bit of the challengebecause I think once you go to a
few classes, you're going to realizepretty quickly, I need to go to more.

Mike (01:06:47):
Hopefully homeowners understand that there's a lot of value in
the people that have education.
So they start asking, do you havesome, and if not, that will drive more
people to get it and it'll make thewhole industry better and make the
homeowner's experiences better as well.

Kevin (01:07:02):
So anyway, we enjoyed having Kirk on here and we're looking
forward to having a lot more guests.
Yeah.
We've got some more lined up

Mike (01:07:08):
here shortly.
So one thing too.
If you happen to be on your podcastlist, looking at podcasts and you scroll
down to our podcast, and if you gothrough all the episodes down to the
very bottom, there's a place that youcan give us a review or a five star
review, or you can actually comment.
So those things are really helpful for us.

(01:07:30):
It'll be helpful for other people tofind us come spring when they're trying
to do their projects, those help.
And also.
If you have some questions,social media, you can post them.
You can also go to the website andfind the place to enter a question.
And we'd love to answer those for you.

Kevin (01:07:48):
Absolutely.
Thanks for listening, everybody.
Take

Mike (01:07:50):
care.

Kevin (01:07:51):
This show is all about helping you become a better buyer, a better pool
owner, and hopefully you're going to findsome insights into how to enjoy your pool.
Even more so how to help your friends,your family, anybody looking to buy a pool
in the future, or that want to remodeltheir backyard, add an outdoor fireplace,
fire pit, add an outdoor kitchen area, addsome shade cells or whatever else it is.

(01:08:15):
We want to be that resource for you.
And that's the end goal here.
And we promise that there'sgoing to be a ton of information.
We'll try to go through it, youknow, as relatively quickly, but
also slow so people can understand.
But the intent of the show, thereason Mike and I are doing this
is because we just got a lot inour heads and we want to share it.
So we hope to see youhere every single week.
Thanks for listening.