Ep 073 The Designers Journey with John Kenyon

Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:02):
Welcome to Luxury Outdoor Living Podcast with Mike and Trey
Farley of Farley Pool Designs.
For over 40 years, we'vehelped homeowners turn their
backyards into personal retreats.
Spaces of joy, relaxation,and unforgettable memories.
And whether it's a cozy escape, or aresort style oasis, we design it all.

(00:24):
We know how overwhelming a projectcan feel and nothing feels worse than
a homeowner having a bad experience.
And that's why after decades of designingand teaching in this industry, We're
here to share our knowledge, helping younavigate the process with confidence.
Every week we break down designtrends and insider tips to
turn your vision into reality.

(00:45):
And since this is about creating somethingamazing together, drop a comment if
you have any questions, ideas, or justwant to be part of the conversation.
If you find this helpful, a like helpsget this out to more people like you.
And if you want to keep upwith what's next, go ahead
and hit that subscribe button.
We'd love to have you along for the ride.
Let's build your paradise together.

Mike (01:11):
Well, This is Mike Farley.
We're talking luxury outdoorliving today, and we've got
a great guest coming with us.
John Kenyon is the sales manager anddesign consultant at Gibson pools.
His role is to understand his clientsdreams, unique needs, and meet their
budget within their design preferences.
His career, through the Universityaccredited degree, solely to the art

(01:34):
of water, takes practical subjectslike concrete strength, hydraulics,
and construction techniques, andmarries them with the beauty of
water and surrounding landscapes.
He has recently completed his professionalgoal of completing his master's degree.
Is a certified pool design andbuilding and is now teaching
multiple classes at the university.

(01:55):
He loves swimming since hewas young and still swims laps
weekly in his indoor pool.
It is a wonderful complement to hisexercise routine, which also includes
running and exercising at the gym.
Empirical data shows that swimmingnot only helps cardio exercise,
but mental wellness also.
Being in the water isjust plain good for you.

(02:15):
His role as a consultant is to helpyou understand the construction
process, the financial process,and the emotional rollercoaster,
and of course, the final reveal.
Whether your pool's indoors oroutdoors, or a postage stamp or a
football field, his design experienceis a wealth of ideas to share.
.John's favorite quote is, Every great design begins with an even better story.

(02:37):
Good evening, John.
I would just want to welcome youto luxury outdoor living podcast.
And just thank you forcoming and staying with us.
I know.
you on the same time zone as us or are youactually getting into late in the evening?

John (02:50):
We're just an hour different, just an hour ahead of you.

Mike (02:53):
That's not too bad.
We just read your bio about everything.
Tell us how did this journey all start?
did you get into the pool industry?

John (03:01):
It's actually really funny.
When I was a kid.
I actually had to get draggedkicking and screaming to swim.
my mother said she's never seena kid so terrified in their
life going to swimming lessons.
I don't think it was actually theswimming, I think it was just the
whole, it was loud, the kids werelike yelling and screaming and I
was just beyond, I had no idea.

(03:22):
And then my dad decided to fixthat and build a family swimming
pool in the backyard himself.
So my dad was a police officer, buthe was handy and he didn't buy a kit.
He went into the steel companyand bought a piece of steel.
And then he went and bought some sand.
And we dug the hole by hand with a shovel.
Oh, wow.
that was a neat experience.

(03:42):
we heated the pool with poly pipe that heput up to the garage roof in the circle.
Like the water went upand came back down hot.
my dad was genius like Iwas about nine years old.
And then I went on to my life andworked in retail for a long time.
And then I worked in radio fora little bit in advertising.
And Mr. Gibbs from Gibbs andPools, the owner was a client.

Mike (04:04):
Okay.

John (04:05):
And he said to me, you ever want to quit this job, I'll make you an offer
you can't refuse, but you're going tohave to learn how to sell pools, and
you're going to have to learn how tobuild them, and you're going to have
to learn how to do all of that.
And so he enrolled me into Genesis wayback in and I went to three or four
classes a year for the first few years.

(04:25):
It was pretty incredible.
I was one of the fastest everto get what they called then
my SWD or Society of WatershapeDesigners in two and a half years.

Mike (04:33):
No, I think the first time I met you was in color theory yeah.
Yeah.
I think it was color theory.
Yeah.
We had, yeah.

John (04:41):
Yeah.
So color theory, I actuallytook the advanced one too.
And you ever hear music, a thingcalled perfect pitch when someone can
tell you what the note is right away.
You have kind of a degree incolor theory, it's a curse.
So when you see people with the beautifulbrown houses and then blue stone on
their driveway and then here and sothey're mixing their colors like crazy,

(05:02):
you have to very delicately fix that.
Because it drives me

Mike (05:06):
that's challenges of a good education is, you know, all those things.

John (05:10):
Yeah it's great though.
actually is a very greatbenefit, especially when the
client puts their trust in you.
A lot of people when they'rebuilding a pool really do put
their trust in the builder.
To guide them, not only on the buildprocess, but the colors and textures and
finishes and all of that stuff as welleven down to planting and irrigation.
So we really have to know alot about all of that stuff.

Mike (05:32):
So you got involved through that process.
Now you're actually a Genesisinstructor as well, right?
Is there a particularthing you like to teach?

John (05:42):
I teach sales, but from a design perspective.
So it's a really cool class.
in my very first time teaching it,I had 16 people in the class that
never drew anything in their life.
And I had them hand sketch an entirebackyard on graph paper and then present
the design to the client in eight hours.
Quick learning curve.
It was pretty cool.

(06:03):
So it really shows that it'sa skill that can be learned.
And I try, especially when I goto a client's backyard, when you
have that experience not just.
educational experience, but whenyou start going more and more often,
you really can start to see thevision in the backyard, even a lot
of times before the client does.
For me, I usually talk to the client alittle bit in the backyard, and then I

(06:26):
say, would you leave me alone just for 20minutes, and I'm going to measure, and I
have a piece of graph paper right there.
And I literally hand sketchit out to scale the backyard.
And then I go back in the housewith them and I say, let's talk
about what to put back here.
And I do a quick hand sketch there.
And by the time we leave in abouthalf an hour, they have a hand
pretty much rendering of whatit's going to look like flat.

Mike (06:49):
Wow.
That's a quick process.
So

John (06:51):
it is, and it's what I teach in that class.
But clients don't even realizethat they've just seen their
backyard in less than an hour.

Mike (07:00):
Oh, so do you then take that flat sketch and then put
it in a three dimensional model?

John (07:06):
Yeah three dimensional or two dimensional.
Still in the concept phasebecause I think until we have
grades taken and of those things.
We have, I have a good idea whereit's going to be until we get exact
tree sizes and protection zones andswales and all of this stuff, and
we'll talk about that a little bit.
And then things clients need to knowand what they don't need to know
to have a successful pool project,but really coming up with an idea.

(07:30):
And when I start with a client, I alwayssay, I'm sure we have a budget on this
and we're going to talk about that.
But let's talk about designingfirst, like money doesn't matter.
Because I want to get the feelingof what they're looking for.
If they could have anythingthey want, what would it be?
And what that does is if it's beyondthe budget, it does allow us to phase,

(07:51):
It allows us to phase the project.
So I'll give you an example.
Let's say a client really wants awater feature on the project, but they
don't really have the budget for it.
But I can run the water line.
well, It's done and prepare theshell to have an extra bit of shell
on top of it, like cinder block orwhatever, and finish a water feature
two or three years down the road.
Maybe they want a fire pit now, andit's not in the budget, but we can

(08:14):
run all the gas lines undergroundwhile everything is dug up.
Planning ahead and thinkingahead when you're in the initial
design phase is very helpful.

Trey (08:21):
Oh, yeah.
A lot of our clients they'llphase out outdoor living
spaces, especially structures.
I've got a lot.
Yeah.
We sleeve it out andall that kind of stuff.

John (08:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll even go so far as say a pool housewith a bathroom in it, actually running
the plumbing for the bathroom and eventhe concrete pad and they just use the
concrete pad as a patio for a while.

Mike (08:39):
We've got a large project that we just finished last year that's the case.
And right now it looks like they'vegot all this huge paving in their
backyard because the structure isa 20 by 20 hasn't got built yet.
We just dug one just like that too.
That's true.

John (08:54):
Having done a few rentals myself indoor I tell clients, usually you're
going to go over budget a little bit and90 percent of the time it's your fault.
And I explain becauseI've done the same thing.
I start a renovation and it starts tolook good and you start to see things and
you're like, oh, maybe we should do that.
And maybe we should do that.
A really good qualified designerand pool builder can really help in

(09:15):
showing you what is really needed forthe foundation and what you can phase.
Realistically, if you need to phase.

BBQ Intro (09:25):
We're going to take a break here for a second
and get into outdoor living.
So with outdoor living, we liketo go to barbecue bits here.
We're going to share some informationof everything that you may want to
consider in your outdoor living space.
As far as features,especially for the kitchen.
Hope you enjoy this.

Mike (09:44):
Morning, Bobby.
Morning.
We've got questions about smoke andwith smoke and cooking, a lot of people
were like, do I need a vent hood?
And when do I need one?
And what do we have that would work?

Bobby (09:58):
We're bringing a lot of the indoor to outdoors now.
What we've seen is anincrease in vent hood sales.
Yes, if you're in an interior wall,not an exterior wall, you're probably
going to specify a vent hood.
For an outdoor rated venthood, we need minimum 1200 CFM.
We're going to go outsideof the grill span.
So if it's a 36 inch grill, preferablya 42 to a 48 inch vena hood.

(10:21):
One dynamic that a lot of people don'tthat forget is that, when I run a
vena hood, how am I going to vent it?
Is it going to be directelbow out the back?
If so, then I'm going toneed a cover for the top.
Do I have a crawl space above thatarea because there will be a duck
that will run through the ceiling.
And also you want to take inconsideration if you're a designer
or a specifier, the duck cover.

(10:42):
These bigger grills need more airvolume to move out that smoke.
And are we going to get a hundred percentout of that backyard or that back porch?
Probably not.
About 80 to 85, 90%.
So the winds in Texas when you havea downburst a lot of people think
it's like interior, it will takeeverything out of that back porch.

(11:03):
More than likely it'sgoing to take most of it.
But generally it'd take, it'll takealmost all of it, not completely.

Mike (11:09):
So you'll be, you'll have a little smoke smell on yourself when you.
You will.

Bobby (11:12):
And that's, the gift from the grill God.
But yeah that's part of that, butit will take most of that that
smoke out and through the roof.
So

Mike (11:19):
is there a height that you want to be off the counter with the grill?

Bobby (11:22):
There is a lot of companies will go 32 to 36.
Off the finished top.
That's going to be, are you going, what'sthe height that you're going to be?
We have 39 inch tops in here or we 36,but yes, are you going to want a stainless
steel backsplash from that manufacturer?
And then also our outdoordepths are 30 inches.
Remember a standard 24 inch depth.

(11:44):
Venehub will not work.
Usually there's a stainless steel plenumon the backside that brings out the
vent hood that would overlap the frontor hang over the front so all that
smoke would go up into the vent hood.

Mike (11:56):
And do most vent hoods come with lights and so it can help from,

Bobby (12:00):
they do.
A lot of the outdoor rated vent hoodsnow do not have just a charcoal.
Screen in here, they all have lights,some of them have dual CFM motors
or 600 each side or a full 1200 CFM.
When you build these in, of course,you'll lie into a 10 inch duct
that would go out the top of theroof and you're going to use that

(12:21):
weather collar and air cap for that.

Mike (12:23):
So do people use these with a big green egg or a Primo as well?

Bobby (12:27):
That's a great question.
So yes, we see a lot of that.
A lot of people will try to.
Sandwich a grill and a biggreen egg into one vent.
A hood it's not gonna work for you.
You would really need todo what's called a liner.
So it's different than this, the liner,you would have a fur down cabinet that's
outdoor rated, maybe hardy backer, andthen put the liner up inside of it to

(12:48):
cover more area or do dedicated vent hoodsfor each appliance and charcoal grill.
So Awesome.
Thank you for that information.
Yeah.

BBQ Ends (12:57):
So I hope you enjoyed the barbecue bits that we just featured today
and we'll have more coming up next week.
If there's something in particular thatyou're interested for, let us know and
we'll get back into the episode now.

Mike (13:11):
in your process, you mentioned landscaping.
So do you guys work with the landscapingaspect as well as the pool aspect?

John (13:19):
Yeah.
And we do some small things inhouse and we also subcontract to
other landscapers and sometimes theclient has their own landscaper,
but they'll work from our design.

Mike (13:30):
So you're creating then a total master plan their backyard complete
with the landscaping concepts.
Do you guys get into the lightingaspects of it as well as the
hardscape and the structures?

John (13:43):
And it depends on the client.
Some people just want the pool and theyhave a landscape plan done already.
And they just asked us to quote onthe pool, and they have people that do
their lighting and irrigation already.
But right down to planting, ifthey want, we can design it.

Mike (13:57):
And your process is this, when someone calls initially, do you guys
charge a consultation fee to come out ordesign fees, how do y'all handle that?
Process?

John (14:08):
During the pandemic because there were just so many people calling now, we
qualify them really well on the phone.
First, get an idea.
If they have done any research, ifthey know what pools cost, and if
we feel like they are in reasonableplace to be able to purchase a
pool, then we'll go at no charge.
designs are not free, my hand sketchis free but if we get into a

(14:31):
full 3D drawing or a CAD drawing,there's a charge for that, and that
depends on the level of detail.
If it's just a concept or if it's to,with grades and trees and planting
plans and lighting plans, it varies.

Mike (14:44):
that process, you mentioned you do a hand sketch, but then, after
someone approves the hand sketchthat's headed in the right direction.
So how does your process go from there?

John (14:54):
then we talk because I can give them a rough idea just from the hand sketch.
So the pool's going to be from thisrange to this range depending whether
want a vinyl pool or a concrete pool.
the water feature isgoing to be this much.
This is about 500 square feet ofdecking which can run from here to here.
So you're looking at a budget just fromthe hand sketch of say 200, to 300, 000.

(15:15):
Let's just use that as an example.
Sure.
It be 100 to 200.
And then that's a wide range.
And I say, are youcomfortable with that range?
a client will say yes or no.
I was thinking maybe it was.
Uh, But I can see why it is andI remind them again that we did
say all in and we can phase it.
So it really comes down to, they getexcited when even they see the hand sketch

(15:39):
and encourage all homeowners to at leastget some idea of what you're going to
get, even when you're paying for a design.
It's really important.
Are you getting just a conceptor getting a full design?
Measured plan, because a measuredplan, you can shop so that's why a pool
builder wants to get paid for that.
But also once you have a relationship witha designer, you're pretty much, I know

(16:03):
when I've done renovations myself, I wantto deal with the person that designed it,
because they know the ins and outs, andif we need to make changes on the fly,
they know where all the bodies are buried.

Trey (16:12):
It's funny that reminds me of like horror stories I've heard at pool shows
from, these builders talking about thecustomer buys a 50, 000 plan and it's
a concept that isn't even buildable.

John (16:23):
you can price a concept, but it's a budget.
happens because we're nottaking grades at the point now.
I sometimes will take ifI notice it's a big slope.
I have a laser in the car andI'll bring it out just to a
quick one just to get an idea.
But there's easy ways to checkthat out just by measuring
your how your fence drops down.
How just sight lines from the house.

(16:44):
You can on points on the fence.
You can figure it out.
I'm pretty close.
Usually within 6 to 8 inches.
On those big slopes.

Mike (16:52):
in Canada, where y'all are located, is there, like we were
talking with someone last week andI was like, I thought I'd dealt with
big hillsides, which are 10, 15 feet.
And he's talking about 45 and50 feet in Northern Georgia.
The elevation changes.
So what kind of elevation changedo y'all have in the area?

John (17:11):
But we deal with what we call ravines and urban forestry.
So we're strong as a big city.
General populations of the cityis 3Million, but it's 10Million
around greater Toronto andwe have a. big ravine system.
So a ravine your backyard can go out andthen it can drop like 20, 30, 40 feet,
but it's very treed usually, but theyhave big restrictions on those lots.

(17:34):
So usually you have to be six meters,which is about 20 feet back from
top of slope, which you can onlydetermine with the geotechnical report.
I've been in situations with the clientand the conservation said you want to
put a pool in, but the house is in peril,

Mike (17:50):
which is not a good thing.

John (17:51):
Yeah.

Mike (17:52):
Is that a surprise to clients when they find that out that situation,
they thought they had plenty of space.
Yeah,

John (17:59):
for some, and obviously when you buy a ravine lot, you're paying a lot
more money for it, because there's abeautiful lot, usually the treed with
slopes, and sometimes there's creeksrunning in the back of them, which
also pose a of being in a flood zone.
So a creek can rise in what they callnow a hundred year storm, which come
every two or three years, it seems now.
And the hundred year stormsthey now have storm lines.

(18:22):
So.
As we've learned in some of our Genesysclasses, you can build in the floodplain,
but it's still not recommended.
really discourage buildingin floodplains, and then
we have to deal with trees.
So the trees areprotected like crazy here.
Anything over 30 centimeters, which isabout 15 inches 12 inches is protected,
and it has a protection zone around it.

(18:43):
So you can't dig within thatzone without permission.

Mike (18:46):
What kind of trees are predominantly the area?
I'm just curious.

John (18:50):
It's actually called a Carolina forest but it's primarily
locusts, maples, beeches sycamores.
birch trees, a few elms a lot ofconiferous and a lot of deciduous,
both white pines blue spruces.

Mike (19:06):
That sounds beautiful.
want a ravine lot.

John (19:08):
Yeah, you do.
So again, you can go through theprocess with a ravine lot, but you
have to have a bunch of things.
So now when I go, I have, there's a map inToronto and I go on the person's address
and all these blotches of color come up.
So if I see pink come up on topof their, like a blotch over their
house, that is an, a heritage.

(19:29):
Lot, which means there couldbe native indigenous heritage.
There could be a old settlement there.
and there's a lot of it inToronto because there's a lot of
creeks and riverbeds and things.
All that means is if you want tobuild a pool, you have to have an
archaeologist come and do a little handdig on the site first, just to check.
And then they need to bethere for the excavation.
Then there's anotherblob, which is tree zones.

(19:51):
So the trees.
It's called urban forestry.
So urban forestry has a block of trees.
That are protected in a ravine.
They're double tree protection zone.
So it normally 8 ft around thetree is now 16 ft around the tree.
And then we have a ravine, which isour sort of conservation, which is
slope and slope stability and water.

(20:14):
So when you're in a ravine, you deal witha lot more things, and it's expensive.
So you need a geotechnical report, youneed an arborist report, you need a slope
stability report, usually a drainage andrunoff report, all that stuff can add up.
But it's the price you pay for being ina ravine rock or a lock, because as you
know, when you do those mountain jobsor the California cliffs and things like
that, they're obviously the most stunning.

(20:35):
Projects

Mike (20:36):
I'm sure sight lines are beautiful, looking out over all
that, but you have to build it.
So it doesn't slide down the hillside.
Yeah.

John (20:44):
Yeah.
And I give the city credit.
They do due diligence.
Now, it gives an we're well respectedbecause we follow the rules.
So we're usually given permissions,faster because we know what we're doing.
We follow the rules.
So they know, but when they say no,we have pushed back and made them do
a site visit and they saw our way.

(21:06):
And again, because they knowwe're going to do things properly.
Things crossing golf courseswhich can be very tricky.
Golf courses don't like you runningmachines across their greens.
No, they don't.
But we will if you know how to do it.
So if you have rubber tires and youcome across different ways and you
come in at night or in the winterwhen the ground is frozen then they're
more apt to do stuff like that.

Mike (21:27):
So bringing up frozen.
you guys have to have a totally differentconstruction process than we do in Texas?
Gosh, it snowed the otherday and the state of Texas
thought they were going to die.
Houston, the mayor told peoplenot even to leave their homes.
Cause it snowed like three inches or fourinches because they have no equipment.

(21:50):
To deal with it because itdoesn't happen that often.
So walk through, can youbuild there all year?
you just said drove acrossa frozen golf course, so you
must build some in the winter.

John (22:01):
Yeah, it depends on the winter.
So it can range anywhere.
I have to use Celsius, but let's saya Fahrenheit would be from 36 degrees.
Down to about 25 degreesor 20 degrees Fahrenheit.
The ground is still frozen, but not much.
It's maybe a couple of inches down.
It's minus 25, which, by the way, is minus25 in Celsius and Fahrenheit is the same.

Mike (22:23):
Oh, okay.
That's cold.
In both of the cases.

John (22:26):
And so the frost in our area in Canada is the regulation is four feet.
So you have to digeverything down four feet.
that you don't want to move.
So the pool, even if you werebuilding it three feet above the
ground, you still have to go downfour feet and bring it up for frost.
So imagine I'm building a sunledge on a pool or Baja ledge,
whatever you want to call it.

(22:46):
It's only six inches thick.
I still go down four feet andbring it back up with gravel.

Mike (22:52):
Okay.
We do the same thing.
Cause in Texas, a lot of thehillsides, they do backfill, but
it doesn't have to be certified.
It can be big settlement issues.
So we remove it all.
And so we've got projects all the timethat we're having to, especially on
ledges that we have to bring in, 3 feet ofgravel, 4 feet of gravel, that type thing.

John (23:12):
If we go back to the initial process.
These are the smart peoplethat are calling right now.
Actually, the really smart peoplecalled me in the fall, right?
Smart people call in the fall.
The second most smart people call rightnow Because if they can get in now and
get their permits now, they'll get a goodchance to dig in early spring last year
we dug all winter It was a mild winterand we were able to get the holes in.

(23:36):
If I get the hole in before deep frosthits, we can build the shell all winter.
Harping.
Sometimes if it's really colda retardants in the concrete.
Just depends.

Mike (23:47):
Okay.
So that was the thing.
My dad lived in Eastern Ohio and he usedto say why don't you guys put, cause when
we have freezing weather, we shut down.
Yeah, we don't do any masonry work.
We don't do any gunite work.
We don't do any concrete workbecause of the freezing capabilities
of the moisture in the product.
But you can add Mix additives and thingslike that allow you to keep working.

John (24:11):
Yeah We don't do the delicate stuff like the coping in the tile and
plaster that has to be a certain todo that Tenting the client has to be
aware that they're going to pay extracost to tent it, but some will because
they want to speed up the project.

Mike (24:24):
Okay.
So what that means is theyput a tent across the whole
project, the whole pool shelf?
So do they just line the projectsup then for plaster in the
spring when it gets warmer?
you can do everythingexcept for the plaster.

John (24:39):
Yeah, and obviously the plaster I don't know if most your listeners know,
but the plaster is really the last thing.
The water goes in generally the same orthe next day after the plaster is put in.
That's the last thing anyway.
So you want to get, make sure all yourplanting is done and your cutting is done
and so there's no dust and debris goinginto a brand new, beautiful pool finish.

Trey (25:00):
I'm wondering do y'all use a lot of glass tile because I know
y'all have a lot of shock and thaw.
Do y'all?
We do.
Okay.

John (25:06):
There's actually we practice from a lot of the classes we've taken.
There's some reallygood methods for glass.
We use a company called Artistry Mosaic,which actually there is this, rated
the best for frost we've ever used.
We use epoxy grout and softjoints in different spots.
So it really helps.
Keep the tile on, and remarkablyit's been really great.

(25:27):
been a lot of bigger glass tilesnow too, not just mosaics, like
some subway tiles in glass, and somebig 6x6s and even 12x12s in glass.

Mike (25:36):
That's

John (25:36):
actually just did glass tile for a client that's going in their
transition of their pool is inthe Grateful Dead skeleton head.

Trey (25:44):
Oh, wow.

John (25:45):
tiny little computer made tiles it's quite remarkable.

Mike (25:50):
And my brother in law wouldn't let that, so he's definitely a dead end.
So anyway,

John (25:55):
that's an exciting one that we're doing and it came, it's in glass as
well, but it's going on the transitionof the pool and with the slope,

Mike (26:01):
right?
Okay.
So you can constructpools in the winter time.
Do people drain their pools inthe winter or can you keep a
pool running in the winter time?

John (26:13):
That's a good question.
we don't drain them completely.
We drain them below the skimmerand then plug the returns and
then we fill them with antifreeze.
Then they get covered.
This is a regular winter cover, whichis like a tarp, and that goes over
top, and water goes on that, and thenwe pull a safety cover over the tarp.
The reason for the safety covers, you'reaware, most of them are like a giant

(26:36):
tea bag, so if you get leaves and debrison there and snow melts, you end up
with coffee in your pool in the spring.
So we put the double cover on.
A lot of our clients now are optingto keep their pools open all winter
not cover just outside, but with anautomatic cover and with infloor heating
and cleaning insulation on the shelland the piping, pool equipment has to

(26:58):
go in a heated shed or a heated pool.
Room in their house, or some peopleputting a little baseboard heater
and some insulation in a shed.
Anything you can do to make surethat the water doesn't get cold
on the way to and from the pool.

Mike (27:10):
Do you insulate pipes as well?

John (27:12):
Yeah, so we dig them a little deeper and then insulate the pipes and
insulate the shell before we shoot it.
And the auto cover it's a reallyamazing, when you go out and Christmas
Eve and take the auto cover off andthe steam's coming off the pool and you
can have a pool party for Christmas.

Mike (27:28):
I tell people all the time, heating a pool up to use off season, I think is
one of the greatest things you can do.
Because, everybody swims in thesummertime, but for kids and grandkids,
when you heat the pool up for,Christmas or New Year's or special
birthday parties or things like that.
it's like you said, the steam's comingoff the pool It's a great memory and

(27:50):
people just love the, to have memories.
If it's unique, then itsticks in their minds forever.

John (27:57):
We've got a couple of big ones, but a lot of smaller pools because
obviously they're less expensive to heat.
But the cost of keeping it openall winter is marginally more than
the cost to open and close it.

Mike (28:07):
So you mentioned in for cleaning, explain, cause I don't
think some people understand why thatwould be a helpful process to have.

John (28:16):
in Canada, I don't know if people know, but there's in floor
cleaning, which they call it down inthe U S because it literally cleans
debris off the floor of the pool.
They look like a sprinkler headsystem in the floor of the pool and
the water pressure pops the jets up.
They shoot water.
And then they rotate, and then they drop.
And by shooting the water they'reengineered to push debris towards

(28:38):
a drain and then a canister.
But what it also does isit heats from the floor up.
So if you're thinking of heating aswimming pool water comes in from the
skimmer and the drain, and it goes backto the equipment, and it heats and treats,
and then it comes back about halfway upthe pool, or three quarters of the way
up, and it's really not as efficient.
If you imagine taking a pot of waterand trying to boil it with a blowtorch

(29:00):
on the side, It's going to take a longtime, but when you start heating it
from the bottom up, it's more efficient.
It heats the entire pool, so you don'tget those cold zones on the bottom.
when in the wintertime, now you'vegot a fully warm pool, top to bottom.
Not to mention the added, we say infloor heating with cleaning assist
in Canada, because we have a lotbigger leaves generally up here,

(29:20):
and it won't do it like a hundredpercent, like they say in the States.
We say 60 or 70 percent clean, but we

Mike (29:29):
don't claim a hundred percent

John (29:30):
either.
We shouldn't at least Paramount says 99%but for us having that assistive cleaning
and the heating from the floor, even ifyou're not keeping it open to winter,
it gives you that nice even swimming.
And it does save on chemicals aswell, because it keeps chemicals
around the entire pool instead ofjust coming again from the side.
being able to swim in the winter,sometimes people want to just keep

(29:50):
the hot tub portion of, say, aconcrete pool with a hot tub attached.
They want to keep just the hot tub openin the winter and we can do that as well.
You close off the pool andyou leave the hot tub open and
the equipment is just running.
And in that case, we would stillinsulate the pipes, but we would just
insulate the spa shell and then the shed.
So you can literally have your hot spanext to the cold pool that's closed off.

(30:13):
And utilize the spa in the winter.

Mike (30:16):
Oh, for those people that want the hot tub and cold plunge
there, you got the set up already.

John (30:21):
Be cold plunging Canada.
Just roll in the snow, Scandinavian style.

Mike (30:26):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
The health and wellness industry, thinkthat in Canada, they've embraced that
much more than they have in the U.
S. Is that something that you seethat people look at when they're
purchasing their outdoor environment?

John (30:41):
It's humongous.
Ed Gibbs just was in Europe and in theU. S. and they just produced a paper.
Big paper for the P. H. T. A. Onwellness in the swimming business, and
it's was just released in Atlantic Citylast week, it's remarkable document.
All the heads of the majorpool manufacturers were there
and participating, and it wasabout safety and wellness.

(31:02):
And it's just I believe the reportis now out at P. H. T. A. We'll
have it up on our website soon.
And wellness is huge.
We say at Gibson, we're notin the swimming pool business.
We are in the healthand wellness business.
Swimming is so important for not onlyphysical health, but mental health.
it brings back memories for your kids.
mean, Look at my memories.
We talked about in the beginningof digging a pool with my dad, but

(31:25):
swimming in this little above groundpool and doing whirlpools and me and my
brothers used to jump off the garage.
And to the pool weren't looking,but that's the film strip of life.
wellness is all about mental wellness aswell and looking back on those memories
and you can't give it a kid a betterchildhood and having a swimming pool.
It's just an amazing gift.

(31:46):
I to tell you a funny story.
I had a client down in an area in Toronto.
We called the beaches.
And he had two very small childrenand he had kind of a crazy access.
We had to go up a driveway in the back.
And I couldn't figure out whyhe had his sort of back windows
at the house blocked off.
And we were about three months there.
It was a big project.

(32:06):
And I said, I have to ask you, why doyou have your back windows blocked off?
He said, Oh, the kids don'tknow we're getting a pool.
Wow.
So they kept it a secret for three monthswith all the noise and all that stuff.
And again, the kids were in schooland when the pool was done, they
just opened the back door andthe kids were like, Oh my gosh.
That's cool.
Yeah.
Isn't that great.
So imagine those kids their memories.

(32:29):
Of that for the rest of their livesor swimming in the winter of Kaylee
Gibbs is she's got a winter birthdayand they have a winter pool.
And she said for the 1st time, shecould have her birthday party in a pool.

Mike (32:40):
Yeah, we have 3 birthdays in the month of February in our
family, and we heated our poolup numerous times for birthday
parties and New Year's Eve parties.
I think those are some pretty strongmemories with my kids at least.
So

John (32:57):
I think people are worried too about the cost of it, but you think the majority
of the time you don't have to have it, youjust have to have it heated past freezing.
As long as it's circulating andit's, 50 degrees, 45 degrees,
50 degrees, that's fine.
Heat it up when you're going to use it.
Especially with the auto coverand the in floor heating, it
really helps with the cost.

(33:17):
And again, the cost of the openingand closing you're saving as well.

Mike (33:20):
Do you do a lot of auto covers on your pool projects there?

John (33:25):
Yeah, I personally wouldn't have a pool personally without a
cover just with leaves and debris,even in the spring, all the pollen
that comes down and then obviouslyheat we use only hydraulic generally.
Covers we even have custom specialplates that are made for our covers.
locally steel that weput down over the vault.

(33:45):
Our vault is monolithic part of the shell.
So we do, yeah, we dothem quite heavy duty.
There are the quite added costs.
So they are substantial.
We have calculated roughly about a 10year payback in heat loss and evaporation.
Yeah.
We.
Not to mention safety.
If a client says safety, it's.

Mike (34:05):
Hands down, it's the safest thing that you can do.
You can't get into a pool that'sgot a cover on it, built in cover.
And it's become more and more ofa popular situation to do here.
And we do a heavy steelcover over our vaults.
I can't remember the last time Ididn't do what we call walk on lids.
Or it looks like themasonry and everything,

John (34:28):
hesitate to tell the story, but we had a client that had an auto cover
that kept failing and we couldn't figureout why, because they're so robust they
kept breaking the cord we thought maybethere was a burr on a piece of stone or
something and we couldn't figure it outand so he went and looked at his camera
in the backyard and his teenage kids wereriding the auto cover back and forth.

Mike (34:49):
Uh Oh.
I hadn't heard that one before that is

John (34:53):
pretty, that was a fun story that the, and he was irate because he
said, you made me pay all this moneyfor this auto cover and it's breaking.
And I'm thinking they just don't break.
So what's going on?
So I said, there's gotta be something,go look at your camera or something.
And he did

Mike (35:06):
Surprise.
So yeah, I bet those boys gota surprise when I found out.
So I think they got the bill.
Yeah,

Trey (35:13):
wondering, we've talked a lot about how you can build in
the geographical elements thatyou have but do you design at all?
I'm sure you do around these elementsand, protecting people and letting them
enjoy the outside a little bit more.
elements do you might pushinto your designs to help your
client enjoy the outdoors more

John (35:32):
when it's cold?
of all, you have to find out reallywhat the client is looking for.
Nowadays, a lot of people are not spendingtime in the sun, but they want a pool.
As the sun is getting hotter and theUV rays higher, people worrying about
burning or being outside longer.
A lot of people are looking forshade structures in the summer.
We talk about Canada being cold, butwe do get very hot in the summer.

(35:53):
We have very extreme weather.
We can go up to 100 degrees in thesummer and minus 25 in the winter.
So we get the best of both worlds.
it's either they love to lay in thesun or they don't and therefore you're
dealing with shade structures, but thensometimes the shade structures can also
have heaters on them or covers on them.
Big things now are these aluminumpergolas with the louvers that

(36:15):
open and close, very popular.
Because they generally don'tneed a building permit.
Some municipalities don't really know whatto do with them because they are poor.
Again, depending if they're bolteddown or not bolted down, it can be you
generally want to bolt them down becausea big gust of wind could pick them up.
But those pool houses are very popular.
For our higher end clients, and I thinkI sent you a photograph of big pool

(36:39):
almost look like a tea house in the back.
And that was a client that justwanted a, they were from China, and
their father came once a year fromChina, and they wanted a pergola, a
cabana to play Mahjong by the pool.
that was something I designed forthem and they use it all year round.

Mike (36:57):
So the structures you create shade situations.
So one thing before I forget.
do the people ever build a structureof some type instead of the auto cover?
I've seen these acrylicpanels that slide over pools.
Do you guys do those some?

John (37:14):
Yes.
We've done a couple of them.
I believe there's two, the manufacturersand American manufacturer and a Czech
Slovakian manufacturer, they look likelittle mini pieces of dome may nest.
So they're on the rack and in thesummer you can push them back.
You leave them on the pool.
And they're on the track sliding back andforth the issue with those in the winter

(37:34):
is they're not like a indoor pool that hasa HVAC system that removes the humidity.
When you got a warm pool, and it'sreally cold outside, you're going
to get drips and potentially icicleson the inside of those things.
It's like swimming in the rain.

Mike (37:48):
Wow.
You could have an icicleform inside your structure.

John (37:52):
Yeah or just wet drips.
Yeah.
Okay.
They're not overly thermal, butthey do keep the wind off, snow off.
have a couple of clients thathave them and they love them.
I have one client that got alittle bit less robust one and they
literally remove it they literallynest together and it doesn't take
up a lot of room in the garage.
So they take it right off in the summer.

Mike (38:13):
It sounds like a cover would be the way I would go, but that's
cool to understand now, do a lot ofpeople build structures and put the
pool inside the structure itself?

John (38:24):
Well, We do indoor pools, a lot of indoor pools.
in our area, and I even did one lastyear with a client when they dug out the
basement of the house, they built thepool indoor, but the outside was open.
So the house floors abovethe pool were not built.
So the pool was still open to the sky,but it was in the basement of the house.

Trey (38:42):
That's cool.

John (38:43):
So that was neat.
I think the plan is actuallyput a glass dome over it.
But the indoor pools are very popular.
Putting structures over pools,not so much, like a pergola.
or a cabana over top of a pool, not a lot.

Mike (38:57):
So when you do a pool inside, there's gotta be things that you
have to do differently than if you'rebuilding one in the outdoor elements.

John (39:08):
Yeah I think it's probably because of commercial pools, but most people
that are buying indoor pools, their firstquestion is, am I going to smell chlorine?
Sure.
is my house going to smell like chlorine?
And so that's always a big thing.
We do a lot of different things for that,obviously ozone and UV, which reduces
a lot of the chlorine other as well.

(39:29):
We're also doing two projects rightnow with the nano bubble system,
which drastically reduces almostno chlorine and that oxygen and
ozone, which is really amazing.
Indoor pools, you alsohave to deal with humidity.
So when you're dealing with an indoorpool humidity from the evaporation
and that's going to, there's a finebalance in the water temperature and

(39:51):
the room temperature to mitigate.
Evaporation auto cover for surein an indoor pool will it mitigate
evaporation tremendously, but youdon't have an auto cover indoor.
You're going to wantto have an HVAC system.
Some people have heard of a systemcalled a dry, which is sort of
a Kleenex of dehumidifiers.

(40:12):
It's a brand name.
And you see a lot of those on commercial,but they also make residential, but
they're enormous dehumidification systems.
And what they do is they.
Use heat to break up the humidityand it returns the heat to the
pool not enough to eat a spaBut enough to keep the pool warm.

Mike (40:29):
That's nice

John (40:30):
And then when you have the equipment in the house You can't use a traditional
pool heaters who you would use a boilerand then you use a heat exchanger and a
bypass So some people use their boilerssay to heat the driveway and they're not
heating the driveway in the winter in thesummer So they use the boiler for the pool

Trey (40:48):
I'm wondering with process of having a pool in a house, I'm just thinking,
because I don't know much about it, Iknow about the elements of the chemicals
and stuff, but when you're like, comingin, and I'm assuming that most of them
would be New builds where you're planningahead with the build of the house.
But is there a way for you to come inwith a pre existing home that has a

(41:10):
space for a pool in it somewhere, whichwould be hard for me to imagine, but
and actually, go into the foundationthey have, how does that process work?

John (41:18):
have to have a fairly big open space in the basement.
We've done it where we've cut theconcrete and dug a whole small pool
Some people adding additions ontotheir houses and planning the pool
in the addition in the backyard.
So that's very popular that really isthe best way to do it and you can tell
a client like a minimum budget for doingan addition on your house with the pool

(41:41):
is It's half a million to a millionbucks, but the time you do the pool and
the structure and the dehumidificationand and all the barriers from
the rest of the house, right?
you want to keep the moisture outof the rest of the house as well.

Mike (41:52):
Yeah.
Mold is not a good thing.
No.

John (41:56):
again, if you've got a respective Builder that builds a lot of indoor pools.
You know that they know what you're doing.
Now we don't particularly do the HVAC,but we work with all the HVAC suppliers.
We know what needs to be done.
And it's a really a fineart in getting it right.
It really comes down to temperatureand it comes down to a fine balance.
Client has to tell you whattemperature they like to swim in.

(42:16):
If they're exercising, theylike the pool a little cooler.
If they're just relaxing, theywant the pool a little warmer, but
then the air temperature has to be.
Very similar to the pool temperature.
So you get less evaporation,

Trey (42:27):
especially when you're on like a second story or something like

John (42:29):
that.
Although nobody listens becauseeverybody wants beautiful vistas and
views coming into their indoor pools.
Glass is the enemy of indoor poolsbecause in a cold climate, you get
moisture can build up on the glass.
So usually when you see the ventingsystems are either in the floor
or in the ceiling and they'reliterally blowing on the glass,

Mike (42:49):
I would think, yeah, that would be hard to pull off.
I can't imagine glass.

John (42:54):
Oh, we've heard,

Mike (42:55):
we've heard some,

John (42:56):
some bad stories.
Everyone puts a glass.
I have a client now that's doingshark tanks in his indoor pool.
Oh, that's cool.
So you'll be swimming in the pooland the shark tanks in the wall.
So that's cool.
he's using the nano bubble becausehe doesn't want to smell chlorine.
Sharks don't want to smell chlorine.

Mike (43:12):
No, I wouldn't think so.
So That's amazing.
didn't know anybody had donethat except for Rick Chafee.
So got sharks in Canadaas well as in Arizona,

John (43:22):
I think before them from you.

Mike (43:23):
Yeah, do you have a personal pool?

John (43:26):
actually don't, because I just moved.
I have a hot tub.
I was in a condo for a long timein Toronto, which had a beautiful
indoor pool which we built.
And I love swimming labs.
It was great.
I miss it.
So there's one coming in my future.

Mike (43:41):
Okay.
you sent us some photographs of someprojects and the one that just was
I thought was amazing was the piano.
Can you tell us the story about that?

John (43:51):
Yeah, it's a really cool project.
It's a right downtown Toronto.
If you were in their secondfloor of their house, you can see
the CN tower from their house.
She is I believe ambassador toFrance or something like that.
And her daughter.
It was nine years old and was apiano player and she really thought
she would want to get her a grandpiano pool for her birthday.

(44:11):
She said, you think you coulddo a pool like Liberace's pool?
And I said it's very funny yousay that because my grandmother
was a big fan of Liberace and Ihave seen the pool not in person.
I said we can do a lot better than that.
So the pool I did sketch out toscale and the keys I did them on
a graph sheet and sent it to DellTile and they put it in the computer.

(44:34):
Those are all individual mosaic tiles.
The steps going into the pool actuallyare Frank Lloyd Wright's initials, FLW.
If you look at them carefully, youcan see his initials because I was
I was impressed by him in some ofthe classes I took him and really
appreciated his work because of Liberace.
The finish in the pool iswhite diamonds and the pool.

(44:55):
You don't see the other end, but thepool actually has swim jets in it.

Mike (44:58):
Okay.

John (44:59):
even the decking around is an elaborate herringbone deck, and
that's an industrial driveway paverthat came in really long, thin.
Lengths and so it gave us a dramatica dramatic but the ebony and ivory,
the black and white together, theblack coping and the white finish
and the black and white keys reallySean, they had an element that they

(45:20):
were trying to get in because they,spent half their year in Europe.
They bought a piece of the Berlin wall.
That had a graffiti piece of pictureof Jack Kennedy on it, John F. Kennedy.
And for some reason, theycouldn't get it into the country.
It was going to be cranedin behind the pool.
It never happened.
So unfortunately, but causethat was very exciting.

Mike (45:40):
Not yet, or it's just not going to happen.

John (45:43):
They ended up putting a Rose Arbor behind it.

Mike (45:45):
Oh, not as exciting for sure.
Wow, that would,

John (45:49):
they were a fun client.
and again we at Gibson, we do a lot ofphilanthropic things and charities, and we
sponsor a lot to David foster foundation.
So I showed David foster the pooland he was just flabbergasted.
He said, I think I need one of those.
Maybe I'll get a check on for him too.

Mike (46:06):
Good luck with the opportunity.

John (46:08):
Yeah.

Mike (46:08):
do you have a particular style that you like there's designers
find that fall into two camps.
Some love to design a particularstyle and then others love the design.
every project being different.
So how would you describeyourself and your stuff?

John (46:24):
I would say the latter.
I do listen to the client it's1 of the 1st questions I ask.
Are you more of a reform natural personor are you more being lines and linear?
And sometimes there's a make or do youlike clean lines, but natural landscaping
or do you like real modern organic?
Yeah, that's Shape.
'cause you can do either.
Sure.
And there's still value in akidney bean, if you put a sort of

(46:46):
California white concrete apronaround it, that's a cutout look.
I do freeform only becauseit's not a lot of people do it.
A rectangle is to me more, commercialso anyone can have a rectangle.
I don't subscribe tothe traditional shapes.
I don't go crazy.
But I also I think I sent you one.

(47:07):
The piano pool is an example of a freeformpool with a bit of recline in it as well.
But I did a, the one with theJapanese pergola that was a
beautiful hand sketch actually.
I hand sketched thatpool and, it was freeform.
Unfortunately, they made me widen itbecause they wanted to swim two lanes,
but when I originally sketched it, it wasreally elongated and curved, but they

(47:29):
did maintain eye shaped spa and the eyeshaped sun ledge and all glass tile, so
really fine details on a freeform pool.
Not necessarily a humpback kidney butyou'll see in my designs I did a fire pit
in the deck that matched the radius of thepool and the fire comes out of the deck.
And the water feature wasmatching the radius on the back.

(47:52):
And match the deck picture of thatbackyard when I first went, it's a
huge backyard and the lady wanted toremove a 100 year old willow tree.
And I said no, We haveto design around that tree.
And so we did.
and that was I call that mymillion dollar hand sketch.

Mike (48:08):
That's awesome.

John (48:09):
to answer your question, there's another, a photo I sent you of a very
traditional backyard with a limestonedecking a beautiful, elegant limestone
rectangular raised spa with a niceweir made out of stone so very elegant
and stately in a beautiful home inEast Toronto and they wanted the
Pool and the decking and everythingand the spa to reflect the home.

(48:34):
So respecting the home andthe finishes on the home.
I'm really big on thatand very picky on that.
I have had arguments with clientswhen they try to pick stone
that doesn't match their house.
I do get a bit, it's probably my colortheory curse but they thank me in the end.

Mike (48:50):
All the pieces go together so much better.
If you do respect that but now andthen there's rules to be broken too.
He's got to, figure out which worksbest for each and every client.
But, that's fun when you have thecreativity to, create, all different
types of things for different clients.
I think that's a funprocess to go through.

John (49:11):
one of them wants rectangular pool and the other wants a free form.
And they're doing flatback kidneys.

Mike (49:18):
That conversation hasn't come up as much as it did earlier in my career.
Cause it seemed recently everybodywanted a rectangle and it was
like, that can get boring.
If, that's all that you want, we comein with some creative things around
them, but yes, early in my career,I don't know how many, yes, I want
straight lines and I want curves.
And so it was like, okay, how doI keep this marriage together?

John (49:41):
Other people's designs with like elliptical kind of shapes with
zero edges, like real wide curves.
I'm straight sides.
like those.
I'd like to do a few more of those.
I had another really interesting client.
I didn't send you a photo, but whenI first went there, met the whole
family and they all had something.
They wanted, she wanted just tobe able to see the pool from a

(50:04):
certain spot in the second floor.
And her whole backyard was grass andentirely surrounded by flowers and
all they wanted was basically the poolin the middle of the yard and then
the let the flowers grow around it.
He wanted to swim.
The son wanted something deep hecould jump in, and the daughter wanted
a sun ledge that she could lay on.
So they got everything.
There's a bit of a grave there,so I put a water feature.

(50:26):
When I was in Mexico, I wentswimming in the cenotes.
And to me, I just thought that greencolor of the water was just spectacular.
And I've been trying to get thatcolor in a pool, and I think I
got really close on this one.
It really just stands out, and it's beenabout two years now, and it is growing.
All the plants are growing backaround it, so it's literally this

(50:48):
oasis in the middle of the backyard.
And it's totally freeform.
It's not, doesn't conform to any shape.
if you said anything, itmight be like a clover leaf.
Really neat.

Mike (50:58):
It sounds like a beautiful setting.
Just simple.
Clean but very organic as well.
So

John (51:04):
just do like the, I do like the organics because you can have
a little fun with 'em and be freeand I never do the same one twice.
That's never similar.

Mike (51:12):
So when you present your projects do you do three dimensional modeling?

John (51:17):
Yeah.

Mike (51:18):
What pro program do you, I'm just curious, what one do you use?

John (51:21):
I use so I start, I can literally take my hand sketches and
scan them in because they're thatclose to scale and just sketch
over them and pop them up and down.
And if I'm really trying to makethem look realistic, I use Lumion.

Mike (51:35):
Oh, that's beautiful.
Combination that's a trick to it.
So is everybody at Gibson use that sameprocess or people do different things?

John (51:45):
Some people do different things.
We actually have fivemasters had Gibson yeah.
And three more on the way.
we all do it a little bit differently.
I'm the only one I think that doesbasic like a really tight hand sketch.
And then Evan, one of our otherguys, he's a real CAD guy.
He's he likes the CAD drawing.
And also some are just the bubble diagram.

(52:06):
Like literally this is wherethe pool is going to go.
This is where the shed is going to go.
And we've got other technicians inhouse that can do stuff as well.
With SketchUp or CAD or depending.
CAD I always find is good ifyou're doing major detail with.
If you need elevations, and youneed wall tops and bottoms, and you
need plants and lights and all thatstuff, you need go into CAD, but
if you're looking for a concept andfinishes then the SketchUp is great.

(52:30):
Some people use Pool um,never use Pool Studio.
I've taken a class on Pool Studio.
For me, I think it has a lot of greatthings, like you can literally put the
address in and get all the coordinatesand the sun directions and all that stuff.
But for me, being able to build somethingin it rather than just putting a pool
shape in or a standard pool shape.

(52:50):
I even draw my freeforms inSketchUp, which is crazy.

Mike (52:54):
It's just, you're coming up with stuff, as you said, unique every time.
And so, you know,

John (53:00):
it's circles,

Mike (53:01):
but cool studio.
There's a lot of people that,they just work with templates
and drop stuff in there.
you're truly designing the space.
So that's amazing to me.
is the person.
That is committed to education at Gibson,because if you've got five masters already
and three on the way, you're going toprobably have a 4th of the masters.

(53:24):
I mean, There's not that many

John (53:26):
I think he just signed up 13 more for Genesis classes.
So,

Mike (53:30):
who promotes

John (53:31):
it Gibbs.

Mike (53:32):
Okay.
So

John (53:34):
we've had success with me and Evan, we were the first two that started and
Connor and Kaylee, who the parents atGibson, they both have their masters.
And then Jason deals hasbeen with us for 25 years.
He got his masters as well.
So.

Mike (53:49):
That's a commitment because I know what it took, to do that process.
But the problem is I startedwhen they first started.
They took a long time to go to classnumber two and class number three
when, they just went to Morro Bay.

John (54:03):
you have to fly to places.
So you when you.
We think of it as the initial commitment.
It's a financial commitment that'stremendous because you're not only
paying for a flight, you're payingfor a hotel, you're paying for the
class and you're paying your employeesalary as well while they're away.
So it is a big commitment,but it pays off.
In the results, when you make moresales and you're able to communicate

(54:27):
with the clients better and createbetter results are model at Gibson.
a lot of people have this.
Some people have this model is onceI sell something, it gets handed
off to a project manager and Istep back except for selections.
So I do the selections for theclient, which is all the tile
and the coping and the plaster.
And any plant material and deckingand then the project manager or

(54:49):
the superintendent puts it throughand does all the construction.
I also help see the permits through.

Mike (54:55):
Yeah, that's fun.
I have clients that are always like,are you going to get the permits?
And I'm like are youvolunteering to do it?
And no one's ever volunteered to do that.
I sure wish they would.

John (55:05):
it depends on what they are.
The conservation ones, I almost.
Want them to because they see justhow brutal it is and how long it
takes and then they don't blame you.

Mike (55:15):
Yeah, that's true.
We had one that we had to getapproval from the Army Corps
of Engineers just recently.
It took close to sevenmonths to get approval.
So

John (55:26):
I was close to a year and a half on one.
It's also when you're.
A client buying a pool it's alwaysthink about managing expectations,
especially when we're dealing withweather, cold weather in raining weather.
There's going to be sunny days whenthere's going to be no one there.
It's a process.
And I always tell my clients.
This is a chance.

(55:47):
You probably didn't get to sit andfor most people didn't get to sit
and watch their house get built, butnow you're getting to sit and watch
the second biggest investment built.
Enjoy it.
Enjoy it.
Get the kids out with hard hatsand let them drive tractor.
The guys will do that for them.
Take pictures as you go along.
We had a client that did a wholestop motion of the whole project

(56:08):
and now he's got the whole projectin like less than half an hour.
It's really cool.
So getting people involved as a client, ifyou're buying a pool, get involved, pick
the samples or work with your, it's fun.
It's like doing your interior design.
Get involved, talk to the workers.
They're awesome people that buildthese pools and they come from all
different backgrounds and they're just.

(56:29):
They're craftsmen.
It's like watching in ancientRome when they used to sculpt
things with hammers and chisels.
Our guys are chiseling, coping right onthe pools and hand troweling plaster.
And it's really a remarkable thing.
One thing, when you take Genesis coursesas a designer you can get a bit of an
ego because you start to, they say alittle knowledge is a dangerous thing.
So when I started going backto the offices and telling

(56:52):
the guys that they were.
bending the rebar wrong and tying itwrong and shooting it wrong the concrete
wrong, they put me in the pit and showedme quickly how to let me show them.

Mike (57:03):
Yes.
So yeah, here you can Show us how it's So

John (57:07):
for a client's perspective, it's a journey.
So it's a destination we all excited for.
And everyone's as soon as you sign onthe dotted line, everyone's when can we
swim the most dangerous question ever.

Mike (57:18):
That's a good quote, most dangerous question ever for a pool builder.
When can you swim?

Trey (57:23):
Yeah.
When can we swim?
We got a birthday party.
And it's finished.

John (57:26):
Yeah.
We got a birthday party.
Go to Great Wolf Lodge.

Mike (57:29):
Well, I tell them, there'll be another birthday
the following year as well.
So, Don't get hung up on that.
So

John (57:37):
we always just focus on quality.
And like anything, we don't rush quality.
It's a very important thing.
Most pool builders get paid as the projectgoes on, so they're interested in getting
it finished just as much as you are, butmost of us that have degrees and you're
yourself included we don't rush quality.

Mike (57:59):
one of the things we have on here that we talk about is a
true crime poolside, true crime.
So something that's happened to somebodythat it was a crime that they didn't
know that, they shouldn't have done that.
Or, something along those lines, isthere a story you can think of where,
somebody experienced a true crime?

John (58:20):
Yeah it's sometimes people.
Know about things that are in theirbackyard, but maybe not forthcoming.
Like I had a client knew that he hadwater issues in the backyard, but
we started digging down and it waslike a lake coming in the backyard.
It was like a fountain comingup and we went down nine feet
and it still wouldn't stop.
that was one burying the dog in thebackyard is probably not a good idea.

(58:45):
Yeah, that's going to comeup when the pool comes up.
yeah, those are true crimes for sure.

Mike (58:50):
yeah, people can get real upset about the pet situation,
so.

John (58:55):
they forgot where they

Mike (58:56):
planted it.
It's a good thing to.

John (58:58):
Or, the other thing that's really interesting is the things you find.
We had a project where we dug down andwe found a house buried in the backyard
that was probably over 150 years old.
And it was, like almost like alog cabin we were almost afraid
to tell someone because they wereprobably protected or something.
Like it was a whole house.
Was that a ravine?

(59:19):
It was not in a ravine, but ravinesyeah, you can find all sorts of stuff
down there too, mostly pottery and stufflike that but that's even very rare.

Mike (59:28):
You mentioned archaeologists to come check a site.
I've never had to do that.
So that would be very interesting toHave they ever come and found something
that, a house is a pretty big thing.
So yeah,

John (59:42):
a A house is a big thing.
Old like drainage pipes fromold neighborhoods that were
maybe old sewer systems.
That's big before my time, mylegend of a house we dug in a place
in Toronto called hogs hollow.
And the area was where they used to dumpall the cinder ash from the fireplaces.
And this backyard had probably about.

(01:00:02):
Eight to ten feet of cinder ash inthe backyard that had to be dug out.
And the client got a quote, I thinkit was a hundred grand to put piers
in and to build the pool on piers.
And he agreed.
Yeah.

Mike (01:00:14):
It's just whatever's, best for you.
Everybody's different.
So it was worth the cost forhim to get what he wanted.
I was sure.

John (01:00:22):
And because the trees are so protected There's quite often
people want to make trees disappearand I don't want to know about it.

Mike (01:00:30):
We've had that happen too.
Yes, we have.

John (01:00:33):
I get it.
We had a situation where a client hada, I don't know have them down there,
but black walnut trees are really nasty.
Because not only do they have thesegiant green wallets that drop everywhere,
but they drop black sap all overeverything and, the arborist was
insisting that they were able to takeit down because he had small children,
and he was worried about them gettingconked on the head with these things.

(01:00:55):
And the inspector came and said,no, you can't take that tree down.
It's too big.
And he said, we'll go in thebackyard and have a look at it.
He said, I'm not going inthe backyard to look at it.
It's going to conk me on the head.
The inspector wouldn't even go back there.
So they ended up gettingit removed, but hesitantly.

Mike (01:01:10):
you said the trees are protected.
Do they use aerial photographyor something like that to
know what's on the property?
So when you go to pullpermit that it's flagged.

John (01:01:19):
So the ravines do an interesting story.
I had a client that didremove a very big tree.
It was actually damaged in a thunderstorm.
The lightning hit it andthey took it out emergency.
And Ravine when he went for the permitfor the pool, said, where's that big tree?
And he also removed some rocksthat were around that were just
strewn around the property.

(01:01:39):
And they had pictures from 10years back every year for 10 years.

Mike (01:01:44):
Oh, so they knew exactly what happened.

John (01:01:46):
Now, when I go on that Toronto website.
I put the tree canopy app and it showsthe tree canopy in the entire city.

Mike (01:01:55):
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Amazing technology.
We used to have the same issuewhen we were in California, there
were just what called heritageoaks and they were a certain size.
And we had clients that would comein and be like want to put a pool in.
And I'm like you have aheritage oak, you can.
And so it was amazing how some ofthose trees died anyway, and then

(01:02:15):
they got their pool, but yeah,

John (01:02:18):
no, honestly, for me I love trees.
And if, for me, it's a challenge to designaround them, because there's nothing
better than when you have a giant tree,like on that free form with a willow tree.
When you see that now inthe backyard, it's stunning.
Like it's spectacular.
And to design that around that,but also you can light them up.
you can light these trees up part of thelandscape lighting and it's spectacular.

(01:02:42):
make it a focal point and have it reflectin the pool which is really cool.

Mike (01:02:46):
Yeah, we actually just left the job site today for the first appointment.
And we talked to the clientabout that very thing.
I'm a tree hugger.
I grew up in West Texaswhere there weren't any.
And when we purchased our lot, I evencounted all the trees that were on it.
My wife's like.
really there's 83 trees and I'm like,yeah, there's 83 trees on our property.
Now some were removed because we got apool and some have died over the last

(01:03:10):
20 years, but, there's still a 70.
So, when

John (01:03:13):
When you remove a tree legally to put a pool in, because
you can up to a certain size,you have to plant 3 in its place.
wow.

Mike (01:03:21):
It's a beautiful city that you live in and work in.
So do you guys travel very muchor do you find that there's plenty
of work right there for you?

John (01:03:30):
We pick our I would say higher end stuff that's outside
of the city very strategically.
We built a project in Abu Dhabifor the royal family at the
top of the landmark building.
It's on the 67th floor.
I think it's the second orthird tallest pool in the world.
It's open to the sky and it has 160LED lights in the floor, so when
you're floating in the pool, youfeel like you're floating in space.

(01:03:52):
It's pretty cool.
It's on our website.

Mike (01:03:54):
have to go find that one.
Yeah, me too.

John (01:03:56):
It's all abalone tile and it's surrounded by glass.
So that's cool.
We built a pool on an island in GeorgianBay where we dynamited out the island.
It's up in Northern Ontario.
And it's on a freshwater lake, butit's a chlorinated pool on the lake.
We've done some work in south ofFrance the Marriott Hotel in St.
Kitts.

(01:04:16):
A huge residential pool.
When you fly into St. Martin, it'sright when you fly into the airport.
It's about the size, I think,of four football fields.
And it's got some gold tile on the 24karat gold tile on the edges of the spas.
So we do some Big stuff,but we pick and choose those

Mike (01:04:34):
are there people that typically live there in Toronto that have
property elsewhere So you start arelationship with them there and
then travel wherever they want

John (01:04:43):
you to go.
We're also a member of the MasterPools Guild, and so sometimes
we get referrals through there.

Mike (01:04:48):
long ago, I started with Jeremiah Pools in Sacramento which
was one of the founders of the guild.
And they were a great family andI really appreciate it all that I
worked there for seven years beforeI came back to Texas where I grew up.
But they built a great product andI'm sad to see that, Mike and all them
sold the company off, but they got to100 years old, which is quite amazing.

(01:05:12):
So.

John (01:05:13):
Know a lot of homeowners listen to your podcast, and I think
what's really important is you'rebuilding an extension of your home.
This is something you're puttingin for your family that's
going to last generations.
This is not a, Pool you'rebuying from Walmart or something.
This is something that'sgoing to be there forever.
We're renovating poolsnow we built 40 years ago.

(01:05:33):
some for the same family thatbought them originally, just
the generation has changed.
It's really incredible.
So hiring the builder that's going tobe there for the long term, long time.
do your research, do your homework,find those people and you'll find them.

Mike (01:05:48):
That was the, one of the questions that I had in closing was
if you had any tips for homeowners.
That's a jewel.
That you just gave them anyadditional ones you can think of?

John (01:05:58):
Yeah, people buy from people they like.
But also, make sure those peopleyou like are knowledgeable.
They have the credentials to back it up.
Nice people can still do crappy work.
So Really make sure that the person thatyou like has the credentials to back it
up and you can see those credentials,make sure that they work for a reputable

(01:06:19):
company, make sure that you lovethe design, make sure you love it.
And don't be afraid to make changesand push back a little bit with
not only the design, but budget.
I watched a great master class.
I don't know if anyone hasthat app, the master class app,
and you can take classes from.
famous architects and writers.
And I took the Frank Gehry class.

(01:06:40):
He's an architect from Toronto,and he does those big Guggenheim
museums with the titanium.
And he answered the question,first of all, why he does those
curves and how he does it.
And I'll let you see that for yourself,because it's a remarkable answer and it's
too long to go into, but it's not random.
his other thing was, no matter whatyou do, Respect the client's budget.

(01:07:01):
And so when I speak to a clientupfront, I say, have you put
a budget on this project?
And most people have something in theirmind, but sometimes they're afraid to tell
the builder because they're worried thatthey're going to just go with the budget.
And if you were thinking it's going tobe less, they might have said something
too much, do a little research and get aproper budget together of what you've got.
And the pool builder should beable to tell you whether they can

(01:07:23):
do it or not within that budget orwhat they can do in that budget.
What they maybe can't, but could do ata later date, you have the opportunity
to either do it, do use the budget youhave or get a bigger budget or phase, as
we discussed before, but I would say,because a lot of people are afraid to
ask the budget question, but it's reallyimportant to make sure you have a clear

(01:07:44):
budget and have something that someonethat knows how to respect it and spend it
properly and wisely and get you as mostas they possibly can for that budget.

Mike (01:07:53):
Good advice.
I have one last question.
I know Trey has some questions stilltoo where do you get inspiration?

John (01:07:59):
Everywhere.
because I've had this trainingfrom Genesis with architecture,
so I do get a lot of inspirationfrom architecture, from nature.
Inspiration from mentors Kurt Bianchihe's a master at Genesis and it's his,
some of his designs, I took his classes,just remarkable the stuff that he
comes up with again, those large radiusesand the so other builders don't like

(01:08:22):
to be too influenced by other pool.
I I tend to if I'm going to go outsidethe square, it's almost free form.
I draw big circles on the paper firstand connect the dots feel it out.
But it's a lot in nature.
It really is the yard andevery yard square, right?
But not every artist square.
Every artist square, butnot every artist square.

(01:08:42):
That's her esoteric quote for the day.

Mike (01:08:45):
Thank you.
steal that one.

Trey (01:08:47):
I'm curious.
So we do at the end of theshow, usually some mics.
Just easy questions just to getto know you a little bit better.
So I'm wondering what your favoritemovie, book, and meal would be.

John (01:08:58):
Oh, wow.
So my favorite movie is Immortal Beloved.

Trey (01:09:02):
Okay.

John (01:09:03):
Story of Beethoven.
And it's really remarkable because there'san artist who wrote some of the most
beautiful music completely stone deaf.
And the famous Ode toJoy that everyone knows.
He never heard.
And that the story is quite remarkable.
What was the other one?
It was book and then meal.
Oh, so my favorite, I call it my deathrow meal would be a onion bun with

(01:09:29):
butter and a piece of five year oldcheddar and tomato with salt and pepper.

Trey (01:09:33):
That was good.

John (01:09:34):
Oh yeah.

Trey (01:09:35):
book.
Oh, boy.
Book, yeah.
Book is a tricky one.

John (01:09:38):
Yeah, because I read a lot.
Especially because I commute,so I read a lot of audiobooks.
Oh, I just read one, and it was anaudiobook uh, and it was narrated
by Tom Hanks called The Dutch House.

Trey (01:09:47):
Interesting.

John (01:09:48):
Really great book.
would imagine it will be a movie.

Mike (01:09:51):
Awesome.
then I have, where's yourfavorite place to travel?

John (01:09:54):
Anne Marie Patchett is the author.
Where's your favorite place to travel?
I'm actually going next weekon the Genesis Tour to Italy,
to Bologna, and I love Italy.
I just, adore Italy.

Mike (01:10:05):
Tell Maria hello.
I really wanted to go, but I could not.
Anyway, when they came up with thattrip, I'm usually booked out a year out
and what I can do and what I can't do.
And I took her classthere the, in November.
So yes, tell her I wishthat could be there and I'll
hopefully catch you next time.

John (01:10:24):
I'm very excited.
Hey, we're going to see acouple of pool builders there.
We're going to the pool show.
So I'm hoping to see someinspiration there as well.
Obviously the culture and I'venever been to that part of Italy,
so I'm really excited for that.

Mike (01:10:37):
Thanks again for sharing with us this evening.
Really appreciate All you do I'vesat in a number of your classes.
I know you're very passionate aboutthe industry and helping people.
And thank you for the insight thatyou've provided homeowners as well.

John (01:10:52):
Thank you.
Whenever you're in Toronto,come up for a dip in the cold.

Mike (01:10:56):
I will certainly do that.
So we'll take care and we'lltalk to you some later.
Wonderful.
Have a good

John (01:11:02):
night.
Bye.

Mike (01:11:03):
Wow, Canada does things a little bit different.

Trey (01:11:06):
Oh yeah, it's a different geography different elements they have to deal with.
I thought, Texas we got temperatureshock, a lot of temperature change,
a lot of swinging, cold, hot,but they're a different animal.

Mike (01:11:17):
Yeah, they've got us by at least 20 degrees.

Trey (01:11:21):
Easily, yeah.

Mike (01:11:21):
Oh, minus 20.

Trey (01:11:23):
Yeah, he said minus 25, I think to 100 degrees Fahrenheit.
don't know exactly,but yeah, that's a lot.
there's a lot of stuff and then there'sreally good for homeowners and like
up and coming to designers, maybeeven expert designers that want a
little bit more education, but the theoverall how they're able to still build
in the wintertime with such drasticenvironments is very interesting.

Mike (01:11:45):
Well, I, I just think it's amazing how they can create an environment
that people can still enjoy their pool.
All year long up there.
Not just shut it down in the winter time.

Trey (01:11:57):
Yeah, when I hear about stories from people from the east coast.
They all say they shutit down for the winter.
It's a seasonal industry.

Mike (01:12:04):
So with the insulation of the pipes that was pretty cool.
that's why everybody up there has abasement, because they have to dig down
four feet to get through the frost layer.
Yeah.
So they don't have movement.
that's why in Texas we don't havebasements, because we don't have a frost

Trey (01:12:20):
layer.
It's interesting.
A lot of people that we've talkedto have done pools and basements.

Mike (01:12:24):
It's a usable space that, you can come in and put something in.
Plus it's the most stable becauseyou're in the ground versus, Hey,
let's put the pool on the third floor.
You

Trey (01:12:36):
don't have to worry about leaks.

Mike (01:12:37):
The

Trey (01:12:37):
water leaking down on you when you're sleeping in the bed.

Mike (01:12:40):
Which is something I'm certainly thinking about today.
So anyway, after havinga leak in the house, but.
there was some really good informationthere as he had some really good tips
for homeowners as well it's a reallyinteresting process and some of the things
that they do very much the same as we do.

(01:13:00):
I really appreciate John coming on andsharing all the things that he had.
Look forward to going upto Toronto and visiting.

Trey (01:13:06):
Oh, yeah.
That trip will have tobe after Houston though.

Mike (01:13:09):
He gets to go to the Italian pool show.
I know.
We get to go to the Houston pool show.
So a

Trey (01:13:15):
little bit of a different culture, a

Mike (01:13:17):
little bit different.
Yeah.
And Italy versus Houston has

Trey (01:13:21):
more smashed windows.

Mike (01:13:22):
Yeah.
anyway.
awesome.
I'll look forward to the next podcast.

Trey (01:13:26):
Oh yeah.

Mike (01:13:27):
See you later.

Trey (01:13:28):
See you.

Outro (01:13:29):
This show is all about helping you become a better buyer, a better pool
owner, and hopefully you're going to findsome insights into how to enjoy your pool
even more so, how to help your friends,your family, anybody looking to buy a pool
in the future, or that want to remodeltheir backyard, add an outdoor fireplace,
fire pit, add an outdoor kitchen area, addsome shade cells, or whatever else it is.

(01:13:53):
We want to be that resourcefor you, and that's the end
goal here, and we promise you.
That there's going tobe a ton of information.
We'll try to go through it, youknow, as relatively quickly, but
also slow so people can understand.
But the intent of the show, thereason Mike and I are doing this
is because we just got a lot inour heads and we want to share it.
So we hope to see youhere every single week.
Thanks for listening.

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Ep 073 The Designers Journey with John Kenyon

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