Ep 078 Patio Covers Ideas with Buildometry

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome to Luxury Outdoor LivingPodcast with Mike and Trey
Farley of Farley Pool Designs.
For over 40 years, we've helpedhomeowners turn their backyards
into personal retreats, spaces ofjoy, relaxation and unforgettable
memories, and whether it's a cozy as.
Escape or a resort style oasis.
We design it all.

(00:24):
We know how overwhelming a projectcan feel, and nothing feels worse than
a homeowner having a bad experience.
And that's why after decades of designingand teaching in this industry, we're
here to share our knowledge, helping younavigate the process with confidence.
Every week we break down designtrends and insider tips that
turn your vision into reality.

(00:45):
And since this is about creating somethingamazing together, drop a comment.
If you have any questions, ideas, orjust want to be part of the conversation,
if you find this helpful alike, helpsget this out to more people like you.
And if you want to keep upwith what's next, go ahead
and hit that subscribe button.
We'd love to have you along for the ride.
Let's build your paradise together.

(01:12):
Growing up with an engineer fatherand an artist mom, Ronnie has
been designing and building alltypes of projects since childhood.
Literally starting withdeconstructing and modifying toys.
Bikes and building bikesand skateboard ramps.
Later going into custom stereobusiness, building speaker boxes and
learning to do full fabrications ofcar interiors, creating, building

(01:35):
things has always been a passion.
So throughout his life, he's alwaysbeen involved in some type of build.
Related creative outlet workingprivately for designers for 20 years,
doing everything from demos to anyand all aspects of construction.
As a utility guy, Ronnie decidedthat the outdoor living space
is where he enjoyed the most.

(01:56):
buildingometry.
So in 2019, he launched buildingometry.
The goal was to educate people on theindustry, create a better customer
experience, and build better qualitycustom outdoor living spaces and push
the envelope on massive structures.
Today, in 2025, his goalremains the same, yet more.

(02:18):
So to support other builders,educate consumers and improve
industry standards, such as thoughtleading brands of excellence.
Buildinometry is the art andprecision of building beauty.
Look forward to talking to Ronnie..Good afternoon, Ronnie uh, to
luxury, outdoor living podcast.
And we just read your bio andyou've done some great things.

(02:40):
So tell us something that onthere that wasn't on the bio.
I was actually a strength and conditioningcoach for about Over 20 years.
So I did a lot of performance trainingwith athletes of all ages, and then
got real specialized with youth.
Throughout my life.
Being involved with buildingand doing other things.
That was my creative outlet.
I trained athletes for many years andthen I got very specialized in schools

(03:00):
and younger kids 6 to 13 developedcurriculum for that sold it to about
50 school districts And now we'regoing to digitize that and we're going
to rebirth that here pretty quickthat'll be my next phase of life to
Take that back out and run with it.
But that's just another aspect outsideof All of this stuff, the build and
learning and getting your face punchedin to learn and be good at what you do.

(03:25):
Right.
I mean, I think that's what we do.
Oh yeah.
So came first?
I'm just curious.
Or were you doing at the same time?
It's same time.
So per my bio, I think you saw, I've beenbuilding things since I've been a kid.
My dad was an engineer.
Mom was an artist.
So when I was a kid, We neverhad a handyman of any kind.
My dad fixed and built everything.
We never, ever once in my life,literally, did I ever have anybody

(03:47):
do anything or fix anything.
And so I learned atremendous amount from him.
Everything I've learned.
As I got older and I continuedto do that, I did get heavily
into the training side of things.
Because I was involved with it myself Soyou got to remember kids are generally in
the evening right after school And so whenI got real specialized in kids I was able
to do things during the day And still dosome build projects and I would do it on

(04:09):
Kind of the side for designers and thingsso I did run them simultaneously for a
little bit But once I really launchedbuildometry, I resigned from that role
was at a private christian school for10 years and then I had a facility and
once I launched this it's all hands on,
right?
You're all in.
So yeah, ran them in tandem for a littlebit, through COVID back in that time,

(04:30):
did you grow up in Dallas, Fort Worth,
lived here since 1985,moved here from Houston.
I grew up in Louisiana and Houston.
Most of my life.
Those two places.
And then my dad got transferred herein 85 worked for TI retired from TI.
So I started here in about seventh grade.
Here locally, Richardson grew upthere, lived in Plano for a while.

(04:51):
Now I live in Rockwall.
All right.
That's a booming area.
Oh yeah,
man.
Yeah, it's good.
It's good.
I'm curious.
what was the first bigstructure you built?
started building some structuresearly on, just normal stuff.
Did demo stuff for a while and thenstarted building some smaller structures.
The first big one was probably.
That was massive like 14 1500 squarefoot Completely open we did one of

(05:14):
those probably in 2020 Yeah, 2020 wasprobably the first really big one.
That was Shockingly wow, bigger almostbig as the house that we built it on
yeah, that was probably my first reallybig one about five years ago that
we really found that was our niche,
you know
So are most of the structuresyou build attached to the home

(05:37):
or a lot of them separate?
probably 90% Our specialtyis custom integration.
My whole deal is we can goin and change roof lines.
I have very high level framers.
We can literally change the roof linesof a house, which we've done on many
occasions, and integrate that way.
So, Instead of just building a structureand attaching it to the back of the

(05:58):
home, we're literally tying into theframing of the home, restructuring
the home, restructuring the rooflines, removing the patio, the soffit.
And building out from the house.
So when we're done, they look asthough they were built with the house.
That's my primary intention.
Okay.
So how do you create that image?
So somebody understands, because whenyou talk about changing roof lines and

(06:21):
stuff like that, I know most clientshave no clue what you're talking about.
At least most of the clients I work withdon't have an idea what I'm talking about.
So do you communicatethat all to a client?
Generally on our first visit, wehave a pretty interesting process
that we go through with customers.
So we're really big on educating.
We want to make sure they'resuper clear on the path and

(06:42):
what the changes look like.
Some people are scared initially like,Oh, no, I don't know if I want to do that.
So we'll take them andshow them the process.
We'll show them the house before, when wewere demoing it, how we tied in, what the
outcome was, and then when we take themthrough their project, we show them start
to finish our engineering and everything.
How it's done, the type of hardwarewe use, the process we use.

(07:05):
I mean everything.
So when we're done with aclient they're pretty adept to
understanding the build process.
that's what we really focus on,is educating them so they're
comfortable so they know what'sgoing on and they're okay with it.
So do you use just the 2Ddrawing to do that, or sections?
Oh, no.
Or modeling or how do you do that?

(07:26):
We go full.
3d renderings and we can do flythroughswe'll do 2Ds, full 3Ds, and we'll even
do a fly through if that's somethingthat a client wants, where, I'm sure
you guys are familiar, we're literally,it looks like a video going through the
model, the 3D model that we created,so it really gives them a look and
feel of what they're going to get.

(07:47):
I like it to be pretty spot on and alot of the other things that we do,
when we show another project, I takepictures, not just of the project, But
from the side, walking out the door,maybe even looking out the windows.
So we give a lot of trajectoryin that, but yes, we do full 3d
renderings for our customers.
do you get into even the ceilingis at a flat or a vaulted and all

(08:12):
those type of details as well?
A
hundred percent, every detail.
So you'll see literally down to ourtongue and groove, light placement,
fan placement, speaker placement.
If it's a vaulted ceiling or a flatceiling, or what we call a cathedral
with oversized rafters, that arevisible, exposed rafters, and so

(08:32):
we want them to really see that.
So we'll show them that in the rendering.
But in addition to that, we'll show themother projects, very similar to theirs.
And that way it gives them areally good grasp of what theirs
is going to look and feel like.
And then the rendering shows themwhat it looks like on their house.
We are gonna take a break here for asecond and get into outdoor living.

(08:53):
So with outdoor living, we like togo to barbecue bits here we're gonna
share some information of everythingthat you may want to consider in
your outdoor living space as far asfeatures, especially for the kitchen.
Hope you enjoy this.
So tell us about this Pizza Island.
Okay, so this is Fire Magic.

(09:14):
Uh, when you hear Fire Magic, see FireMagic, you're looking at the oldest
grill company in the United States.
We're looking at 80 plus years.
Wow.
They've been in the business.
They are a industry leaderin a lot of different things.
Uh, we love selling the product here.
Um, city of industry, again,great American made product.

(09:34):
They're, they're very innovative.
Um, I'm very forward on, onwhat they bring out as far as
qualities of what they sell.
So, going to the oven itself, thisis not only a pizza oven, but it
is an outdoor oven dimensional,meaning that the, uh, the, uh,
thermostat's built in, it's automated.
So where alpha, you have a highand low, this has a thermostat.

(09:57):
So if I wanted to bake cookies forthe kids and have ice cream out
there, I can bake cookies in here.
It's a full oven.
This Dales get up to the high spectrum,though it gets very, very hot.
There's a rack in there to play cookies.
I can take the rack outand do a full stone pizza.
It's ease of use, gas driven, um,for the person that does not have to

(10:18):
want to tender to wood is what it is.
Gotcha.
This one is a built in.
This one is a built in.
They make a court model.
Okay.
Let's, this is the mostpopular for built in.
Um, it's got, it has their, uh,their key mark lock in tooth handle.
Uh, the rack can be taken inon interior lighting so you can
see what's actually going on.
One thing that they know reallywell as we've known as designers

(10:41):
and then, uh, salespeople, is thatwe can't really predict what mother
nature brings us as far as wind.
Well, this company has done that.
They've got an actual, their,uh, there canopy topp in there.
If I had a back wind blowing in behindthis oven, I can tilt this block
in here and keep this from pushing.
Heat back into the unit itself.

(11:02):
If I've got a particular front that'scoming in that can affect the way
this unit cooks, I can come allthe way down the front with this.
So sweet.
Something that, uh, thatfire magic has always done.
They provided wind breaks,but, but afterthought.
Hey, if I'm, if regardless of whereI live, if I'm in the hills and West
coast, or if I'm in the hill countryhere, or we've got a front coming

(11:22):
in here this next week, and if I'mbaking pieces, this could really.
Uh, determine the outcome.
And this, this little add-onengineering piece is something
that Fire Magic, uh, adds.
But, uh, their engineering team has a lotof forethought on how they build products.
So back lit bezels to let you knowwhere you're at, um, at night.
You can see at night here.

(11:43):
Um, and then this is their Echelon series.
It's got all polishedappointments on here.
Um, if you know, fire Magic, you know, so.
And then it has a storage unit down below.
It is, yes, that's a matchingstorage unit with, with the
pizza oven that you see there.
There they have, they havethe big, robust handles.
Um, we see a lot of these with,uh, this is the most common drawer

(12:08):
that we see mixed in with a lotof other companies that we sell.
Um, it has a water ledge herethat keeps, you know, drawers.
We want to tell customersdrawers are not sealed.
Hmm.
Um, the only sealed drawer is awarming drawer that has a seal on it
because it has an electric element.
But all of our drawers are not sealed.
They're never sealed.

(12:28):
But hot inches, thewater, it is sinks path.
It is, it is.
So this is a deterrent for water.
This is a water, um, a moisture fin.
When the water hitsthis, it gets diverted.
You'll also see that front panelplenum, uh, is really thick.
And why is that?
Because when I've shut this drawer.
It will recess and soft close andit's less apt for moisture to get

(12:50):
inside of the containment drawer.
Very nice.

(13:15):
So I hope you enjoyed the barbecuebits that we just featured today, and
we'll have more coming up next week.
If there's something in particular thatyou're interested for, let us know and
we'll get back into the episode now.
I'm wondering cause this is geared Isthere any like big mistakes that you've
noticed that customers make throughoutthe process of trying to find a design

(13:38):
and a builder to build their dreams?
Because there might be people thatare going into the process and
thinking, okay, what do I not do?
Is there any mistakes in that direction?
I don't know.
I can't really think ofany off the top of my head.
There are just as in the pool businessor any other construction business.
There's a lot of productionbuilders in our business.
Most of them they'regonna be bookended, right?

(14:00):
They can only do so much.
Often they will bite offmore than they can chew.
Or think because they can takeon a bigger project, but they're
not really well versed in that.
So often you find production guys whoare attempting to do larger scale things.
And another thing that we doheavily, we're expert witnesses.
So we've tore down and rebuiltthree different structures thus

(14:23):
far, or four, where literallythey were built improperly.
The size of them was beyond,obviously, the builder's capacity,
so they under engineered them, andthey were having a lot of issues.
That's probably the biggest concernwhen you're building a structure that's
attached to your home, is ensuringthat your footings are correct,

(14:44):
your tie ins are correct, your beamspans are correct, your rafter spans
are correct, your ridge is correct.
And a lot of builders, a lot of theseguys are either house framers, or
they're just simply patio builders.
And as you get into these largerstructures and more integration,
it gets much more technical.
It does really require differentunderstanding to build these.

(15:05):
And even when we have brought in otherframers and stuff, we have to really
take them through kind of our process ofthings that we do that are very specific.
One of my primary framing crews,they build very large custom
homes, like 000 square feet.
So there's a lot of free span ceilings.
There's a lot of oversized beamsridges and things of that nature,

(15:27):
so we were able to really worktogether and I showed them how we
build, what we like, what we expect.
Here's another thingpeople don't think about.
When you're building outdoors, Thematerial you use is very important,
and so is the specifications of thatmaterial, because you're dealing with a
lot more of the elements, whereas whenyou're in the envelope of a home, you

(15:48):
have a very conditioned environment.
You're taking a lot of moisture outof the air, you're taking wind out,
you're taking snow out, you're takingrain out, you're taking sun out.
And so the wood and the othermaterials are not enduring as much
of the brutality of the elements.
So when you're outdoors, youreally want to over spec to
a point that's comfortable.

(16:09):
So if we bring in an engineer,he understands what we're doing.
And on a lot of these, we havebeam spans 26 to 32 feet.
Some of them go 40 something feet.
Sometimes we use steel,sometimes we use wood.
But depending on if you have aridge board or a ridge beam, the
load is offset differently, okay?

(16:30):
A ridge beam is carrying loadwhich sets on the header, okay?
So your ridge beam that's in the topof the roof line is actually carrying
the load of the roof so you're notbearing down so hard on the house.
And when you do that, now youhave to properly support that
ridge beam at the front and therear with your post in the house.

(16:51):
So you have to make sure thatall that is done correctly.
You can't just do a standard,12 inch or 18 inch footing.
You can't do a standard,smaller header beam.
So when you get into these bigstructures, it gets really interesting,
especially if you have, sometimes wehave 22 to 26 foot runs on rafters
on one side, which is substantial.

(17:12):
And you have to really do a lot of mathand engineering to understand how to
make those runs without having roof sag.
Ridge sag your spacing there's alot of things that go into that.
You're not just buildinga structure at that point.
So those are some things youdefinitely have to consider when you
get into these larger structures.
100%. we've got quotes to ourcustomers and they'll come

(17:33):
back with someone that under.
And it's like, a lot of the moneythat you're seeing here, we've talked
about like the one page contractsand stuff like that, where it's very
vague, but a lot of the money majority,sometimes it's underneath the structure.
You don't even see it.
It's overengineering stuff,
the foundations.
Yeah, inadequate.
Yeah.
But to the point do y'all oftencause I see this on patios all

(17:53):
the time when it's like remodels.
Cause we go to the wards and some ofthe, Pictures we see are insane, but
one of the best features is removingcolumns from the covered area on the
porch and putting a steel beam in.
Is that like a kind ofstandard thing y'all do a lot?
Very often.
We often remove whatever existingpatio is there altogether.
Sometimes we'll move a columnoutside or inside the home.

(18:15):
And you can go to steel beam.
Steel beam allow you less height.
So you can use LVLs or you cango to a steel beam so you don't
have as much height issues.
So we absolutely do that often andit, and for me, I'm big on visibility.
So I want as littleobstruction as possible.
I want to be able to look out of the homeand see as much of the yard or the pool or
the Whatever we're looking at as possible.

(18:37):
And with a production builder, they'regoing to want to put a post every 10 or
buying standardized, smaller material.
They're doing a lot of things that theyhave to just stick to their plan, right?
And to your point, weuse massive footings.
So under our post on ourstructures are generally two by
two by three foot deep footings.
And if the soil is not great.

(18:58):
We'll go three by three by four.
put really large Footings unlesswe're doing a beam which even for
me I prefer massive footings Unlessit's on a fault line or there's some
grade in the yard, then we'll go toa beam And that's pretty suitable.
But beams can fault as well ifthey're only 18 inches deep.
Because the ground can, you know, the soiland again, it's just a matter of really

(19:22):
doing that math and engineering behind it.
And as we say, there's three primaryareas to cut costs, which you're
mentioning, Trey, is, they, youwonder why their bid is so much less.
So you're, it's the samething I saw in the picture.
They're not building what we're building.
And I tell people this, it's very simple.
You have manpower, you havemanagement, and you have materials.
One of those is getting cheated somewhere.

(19:44):
Okay?
And you have to justdetermine which one it is.
You have to understand whatyou're getting, how they're
doing it, and who's doing it.
And those are really importantin understanding estimates why
someone's 10, 000 or 20, 000 less.
the remodel comes later whenyou spend 20 less to fix it.
Although it's hard to fix thosefoundations later on that's probably

(20:07):
where you have to tear some things down.
you have an engineer on staff ordo you work with an engineer how do
you come up with all that, knowledgeon spans and all that type thing?
We do.
We have an engineer that we usepretty regularly in anything
that requires an engineer.
I have a particular gentleman that we use.
I've worked cases with him.
I met him on a case.
So when I say a case, we had the firstbig structure you asked me about that

(20:31):
I built was one that completely failedthat we had to tear down and rebuild.
Oh wow.
And that's how I met this engineer.
He was the engineer for the attorneyon the case and he and I have
done, two or three more since then.
And that's who I use now all the time.
he's really good.
He's very knowledgeable.
And, our framers are pretty goodjust because of their history, but
we like to lean into the engineer.

(20:51):
We're doing those bigspans or I'm doing steel.
I have an engineer coming in ahundred percent all the time.
We don't guess at those.
That's what we pay engineers for.
Is there a particular type of wood?
And I know in different partsof the country the wood that's
used outside is different.
Like I worked in California for12 years and we used redwood a

(21:12):
lot here I've seen a lot of cedar.
What do you use predominantly outside?
So a couple of things, predominantlycedar on most of our exterior
on my beams and my post.
I generally will use a Douglasfir, because cedar often is not,
they don't have a scope of load.
So your engineers often can't tellyou what the load of cedar is,

(21:33):
and a lot of cities won't allowit for primary beams and posts.
Sometimes engineers will tellyou they don't have a true
spec, because cedar fluctuates.
Okay it's, the load bearingcapabilities of it and the spans.
The cedar different andit's a very light wood.
And so we will often on our bigger postsand beams, I will use a Douglas fir.

(21:55):
But all my trim, everything external,my fascias, my trim boards, my tongue
and groove for the most part, allof that is going to be cedared and
they match really well once youstain them, but that's just me.
And I found that the Douglasfir, I've used 8 by 16.
By, 32 foot Douglas fir beam, onesolid beam that long on the structure.

(22:18):
That's a big piece of wood.
Yeah,
that's a big heavy piece of wood.
Yeah, a very heavy piece of wood.
Very heavy.
Yeah, you ought to see six guyssetting that up on the post.
No, dad worked on barns.
That's what he did for a living inEastern Ohio and Western Pennsylvania.
was the guy that went in andrepaired these structures

(22:38):
that were a hundred years old.
And so all timber framedand all that kind of stuff.
So understand what big beams are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those
old barns are interesting, especiallyeven early, early ones, like 1800s, you
know, those things are still intact.
And again, it shows you that cedarcan withstand the test of time.
A lot of it boils down to engineeringbecause if you've ever seen a truss

(23:02):
barn built, they'll build trussesout of two by fours and they just
look like an old flimsy truss.
But the engineering and the direction ofthe wood and the grain of the wood and
the way it's put together and the angles,you can have a 40 foot span truss made
out of two by fours and it's, crazy theway that they make them, but that's what
it boils down to is the engineering.

(23:22):
And, the way that the wood grainstravel, it's just like understanding.
When you have a board depending on whichway you turn the board it can arch up
or down Right and good framers reallyneed to understand that because it can
create a problem one way or the otherYou know So you have to take the crown

(23:43):
and put it the the proper directionyou want it to go And if you just drive
around and look at people's structures intheir backyard often those header beams
They're already sagging and the roofsare already sagging Because they have
done a minimal specification on material,they give them a two year warranty, and
in about three or four years, you startgetting sag just due to the elements.
It may not fall down, but it's definitelysagging, and an engineer can often tell

(24:08):
you, hey, you're going to get a halfan inch, a quarter inch, two inches.
They can tell you what the SAGis going to be pretty much.
Okay.
In different cities do you have differentcodes that you have to work with?
Explain that to people how that works.
It's funny you ask that.
I keep saying I'm here cause I'm thinking,but since COVID it's been interesting.

(24:31):
So during COVID, we pretty much weretaking pictures and sending them
into the city and get approvals.
But since COVID all the cities, Ithink had a lot of bad construction
from what I understand, a lot of badconstruction happened during COVID.
And y'all know you're the pool.
know there was at one time, aguy told me there was 2000 holes
in Dallas with no steel in themand they were filling up like.

(24:53):
Major catastrophes, right?
Everybody and their dog was doingoutdoor living in pools during COVID.
I mean, It got real crazy.
So essentially the answer is yes and no.
They are all supposed to follow acertain code, a US code, but some
of them will be using the 2018 code.
Some will be using the 2022code and they adhere to those.

(25:13):
And then you have the secondarypart of that, which is.
What inspector are yougoing to get that day?
So what we've done is we take thehighest code standard and we just do
that across the board because evenuntil recently They started changing
the way your rebar sits on your forms.
It can't touch dirt anywhere.
has to be completely freestanding.
It can't be sitting in the dirt anywhere.

(25:35):
Not an end of it, not aside of it, no part of it.
The other thing they started makingus do is sleeving our gas lines
outdoors that go under concrete.
Now a lot of guys will say,we've always done that.
But that was actually an indoor code.
Because if there's a leak, you need tobe able to pull that gas line out and
repair it and put it back, the PEX.
They've also gone to flexible risers.

(25:56):
We used to use hard fixed risers, but youcan't pull a hard fixed riser line out.
So you have a flex riser.
We run 4 inch pipe, put thegas line in it, flex risers.
If you ever get a leak,and then we foam it.
If there's ever a leak, you can grabthat whole line and pull it out.
But until literally Probably lastyear, we had never done that.
we ran PEXLINE and allthat, but it was outside.

(26:18):
There was a different kindof perspective on that.
To answer your question is, thereis generally some variation in code.
Some cities have actually hired A thirdparty engineering firm to do all of their
inspections and review their permits now.
Oh, wow
So we've experienced thatin mcclendon chisholm.
We've learned that and they have anengineering firm that does all that

(26:39):
for them other cities have Certainpeople they hire to do it some cities,
you know I think they just walkout there and look around and go.
Yeah, it looks good and they leave soFor us anytime we fail an inspection
Whatever we got dinged for that becomesour new standard for everything and
that's the way we've operated now We'vedone that and now we've gotten to the

(27:00):
point that we very seldom will fail aninspection usually because they can't get
in the yard because there was a dog orsomething, you know be something dumb or
they left a rafter clip off or something,but That's what we've done to elevate.
So different cities, yes, you willfind a little bit of variation there,
even though they're all supposed tofollow the same code, it just depends
which one they have adopted andnominated for that particular year.

(27:22):
So in the swimming poolindustry, homeowners.
Assume that because their pool isinspected, that means it's well built
and they don't understand that all thatthey're inspecting when they go out to
inspect, the steel is that it's grounded.
Okay, not spacing or anything like that.
And when they go to inspect the deckinspection, it's again they're inspecting

(27:45):
electrical and gas and things like that,but the swimming pool, hardly anything
that they're actually inspecting.
because you're inspected, doesn'tmean you get a quality product at all.
So I'm curious in the outdoorliving industry, is that
different or is that the same?
The same.
here's where go with that.
And unfortunately, always do my bestto support the city efforts because

(28:09):
there are checks and balances there.
Oh,
sure.
You're at
least getting some degreeof checks and balances that
somebody's looking at your work.
Do they miss things?
Of course.
has anybody ever tested your concreteto see if it's 4, 000 PSI or 3, 500?
No, that doesn't happen.
No.
Has anyone ever checked to see ifyou're on 12 inch center spacing on
your rebar or 16 inch or 24 inch,which is going to cause Bigger

(28:30):
cracks and bigger potential failures.
No.
Are they checking that every cornerof your rebar is wired together?
No, they're just seeingthat you got some steel.
Maybe it's on chairs.
Maybe it's not and then it's bondedto your point So there is the
structure we just tore down thispast six months ago And rebuilt
those people are in litigation.

(28:52):
They were over almost fifty thousanddollars into a project It had been
inspected in past when the engineerwent out, when it was tearing off of the
house, crushed the ridge on the home,was ripping off the back of the house,
post had moved out almost three inches.
The whole front of the structurewas pulling off the house because
the ridge was not correct.

(29:13):
And the gentleman that built itspecifically told him I've never
built anything this big before.
So he was building a large structurethe way he built small ones.
Nothing against the guy.
He was a great craftsman.
He just didn't have theengineering experience.
He could have paid an engineer750 bucks and he would have just
gave him a plan and he could havebuilt it, but he didn't do that.
His ego said, I can build thisand he shouldn't have done that.

(29:35):
So he's in litigation and theinsurance company's being sued.
So to my point, it was inspected.
The engineer wrote about a 25 pagereport on multiple failure points,
hardware placement, board spans,over spans, a number of things
that were absolutely wrong with thestructure causing damage to the home.
And it was literally failing.

(29:56):
And so just in pools, weexperienced the same thing.
And now here's the problem though,guys, this is what I see coming.
The homeowner is counting on thecity to inspect contractors work.
If it fails, whose fault is it?
And I think now they're going backto these cities and going, Hey,
you guys told me this was okay.
You told the contractor it was okay.

(30:18):
That they did it right.
And it was good.
And so I'm not beating up onthe cities or the inspectors.
I'm not, I think now that's whya lot of these cities have hired
engineering firms and they sendout an engineer to go look at it.
Yeah.
I don't mean that in a bad way.
I'm not like, industry tattletaler,I've been involved with it, just
like you guys probably have.
Yeah.
Usually when there's something that'sreally, it seems like over the top wise

(30:39):
when we had to go through, it's probablybecause there was a lawsuit a couple
of years ago, about the same thing.
That's what I'm feeling like may starthappening with cities because I think if
you're going after an insurance company,you're going after a contractor and they
go, yeah well, engineering report saysthere was, 25 things wrong with this.
The city said it was fine.
Is there a liability there?
don't know.

(30:59):
Maybe I could see that potentially.
I'll tell you what, if somebodygot hurt or died, You better
believe they're going after them.
So when you build a structure,there's lots of features that
are involved in a structure.
And there's some things that.
People don't think about when they buildit, is there particular things that
you recommend to people that, a lot oftimes they don't have it on their list

(31:22):
of things that they want, but it's like,this is a really cool thing to consider.
You should really consider that.
What would be some of those things thatyou would recommend a client to do?
That's a great question.
We've made a lot of contentaround this for that very reason.
And we continue to build processes,so in our initial assessment, when
our account manager is visiting witha client, he's talking to them and

(31:46):
showing them things that other peoplehave done that often people forget.
The biggest thing I say is this,really think about what you're
going to do out in a space fiveyears from now, not just right now.
And really think about, peoplethink about their space the way it
was, not the way it's going to be.
now when you have a party, or youhave a celebration, or you have a

(32:06):
Thanksgiving, Everybody can come outsidewhere you couldn't do that before and
people can be out there And how doyou want to entertain those people how
much coverage do you want for them?
And what amenities do you want?
So the things that people don't thinkabout is what is it going to be like now?
Versus what you've known it asin the past and what are you
going to be doing in this space?

(32:27):
What types of activitiesare you gonna have?
What amenities do you want?
A lot of times, probably thenumber one I can tell you is this.
Generally, people always realizethey need to go bigger once they
start laying out their furnitureand, figuring out their space.
They put their kitchen, and now they'relike we're not gonna hardly have any room.
The second thing isunderstanding the elements.

(32:49):
Where's the wind?
Where's the sun?
Where's the rain?
Because in the sun and therain, you're going to lose four
to six feet of floor space.
Wherever that rain and sun's comingin, nobody wants to sit in the sun when
they're out on the patio or in the rain.
So you lose that.
So think about that whenyou're thinking of size.
Then you think about the amenities.
Heaters is the numberone most overlooked item.

(33:10):
I did it myself.
And additional electrical.
More outlets, more lights, more fans.
It's better to have an, notneed the need and not have.
So I tell them put fans, you can controlthose, put lights, put them on dimmers.
If you're ever thinking about doingheaters, if you want to be out here
year round, at the very least runyour gas or run your electrical

(33:33):
so you can add them later, andprobably the last thing that we find.
People always undersize their kitchen.
I don't need much, I just need a grill.
Six foot's enough.
And I go in their kitchen and I go, Isthis enough space to cook and host and
have people and serve and have your pan ofhamburgers and, no that's not gonna work.
What does your wife say about her spacein the kitchen on the counters, right?

(33:55):
And so I always give them some directionin that generally they almost always
go bigger 90 percent of the timepeople make their kitchens bigger And
then kind of a dual purpose there.
Do you want a bar on the back side?
Why not doesn't really cost youthat much more Maybe you got to add
a little concrete or something Butwhy not have a backside bar on the
kitchen and now it's dual purposeAnd then, simple things screens, roll

(34:16):
down screens, that's a big one, andstuff like that really in thought.
Those are probably the primary thingsthat people don't think about, and then,
of course, when you introduce to thema, maybe a large four panel slider.
Or you know something fun like thatand then they're like, oh, wow.
Yeah, that's really what we want Well, youknow, it's twenty five thousand dollars,
but can do it if that's what you want.
It makes a big difference, so Thoseare probably the primary things that I

(34:40):
really want people to think through thesize and usage and then the amenities
So you get into adding doors andwindows into the existing structure.
So my 1970s uh, ranch style homewith a two foot wide window, you
can come in and change that up.
We do it all the time.
So we tell everyone we work from the wallsout, anything you want to do to change

(35:04):
the exterior and we'll do the big stuffinside, sometimes they want to knock a
wall down to open the view up, knock apillar out inside, take an arch away.
We'll do that heavy liftingstuff for them, even though
we're primarily outdoors.
To me, that's related becauseit's part of that process.
But to your point, yes, you canopen those windows up and put larger

(35:25):
windows, put slider doors, put, twoslide, three slide, four slides.
Just depends on what you want, and itmakes a tremendous difference when you're
looking out of the back of your house.
And when you have people over andit's nice out and you just open those
big sliders up and now it becomes onegiant room, half inside, half outside.
You just double your living roomis really what you're doing.

(35:46):
Yeah.
I'm wondering for a homeowner that'swatching this and they're wondering,
Oh wait, is that even possible?
How do they tell if one of theirwalls can be knocked out or if it's
actually a crucial, like load bearing?
Structure purpose wall.
doesn't matter.
you then come in, you add newjack studs, King stud support.
You put a steel beam or abig it can be none, any wall.

(36:06):
So done many load bearing and we'vedone some that aren't load bearing.
We've tore out a lot of patios, probably85 or 90 percent of the jobs we do.
We're removing existing patio,always soften and fascia.
And then if they want to adda door, we just go ahead and
take that out and reframe it.
You have to put a new header inbecause the support's different.
So in your case, Trey, if it's asupport wall, you would then go to a

(36:29):
large LVL, maybe two or three of them.
And then you go to a, or a steelbeam don't have enough depth, because
The height is really an issue.
When I say depth, I meanfrom the top down, right?
You gotta have enough for your openingbecause often they'll want to go to
a bigger window or a bigger door.
They want to do 8 foot if you can,but if you're in an older home
sometimes, like mine, you can'tyou may not have that height.

(36:52):
But when we build the new patio,I can give you that height.
I can raise that back wall up enoughto put you an 8 foot slider in there.
explain to people, because I'm surethere's people that are listening
to this and they're like, I haveno earthly idea of what an LVL is.
Okay.
Good point.
speaking Chinese math over here.
Well, no, no, no.

(37:12):
It's just,
we're in the industry.
We understand it, but Iunderstand clients don't.
And also like slider, you mean sliding
door.
Yeah.
A big slider door window.
Sure.
An LVL is going to be a laminated.
beam.
So it's basically pieces ofplywood glued together to give it
an engineering strength higher thanthat of a single piece of wood.

(37:33):
And that's essentially what it is.
And then we'll add, one,two or three of those.
And they're much larger thana regular piece of wood.
So you can get LVLs up to 24 inches tall.
And depending on the span, thelarger the LVL that's needed.
And depending on that load,You may need multiple LVLs.
And so it's really just that.

(37:54):
It's literally pieces of wood thatare glued together to create a beam.
And then you can go to a glue lamp aswell, which is going to be a stack of
two by fours same purpose, same deal.
so what they are is they'rejust a heavier duty.
Piece of wood to do largerspans and handle heavier loads,
right?
Cause if you're doing just one stickone piece of lumber, your spans can't

(38:18):
really get much more than 20 feet, right?
Well, It depends on the load, but yeah,so generally speaking here's the rules.
You have to add a lotof things into that.
You have to add load, especially ifit's a roof or it's a header board,
header, meaning at the top of a windowor door or top of the roof line.
So when you take your material,let's call it a two by eight, the

(38:39):
furthest of two by eight is supposedto span depending on load is 16 feet.
It's double the height.
So if it's a 2x6 it's 12 feet, ifit's a 2x4 you should only go 8
feet, if it's a 2x6 you go 12, 2x8 is16, 2x12 is 24, that's simple math.
But then you gotta compilethe load on top of that.
Right.
So you gotta do shingles and deckingand, there's a lot of other things

(39:01):
you have to add into that, or Thewall, what is this holding up?
And a lot of your production guys willliterally just make homemade LVLs.
They'll take a solid piece ofwood, put some OSB, and then
put another solid piece of wood.
The problem is you can only getwood, standard wood, 12 inches tall.
And often the height isreally the key to the load.

(39:26):
So it doesn't matter how thick you get itin that case, you have to have the height.
In the LVLs, you can get, likeI said, up to 24 inches tall.
What's your Pretty big LBLs.
Yeah.
Thank you for that definition.
Oh yeah.
I'm wondering sure.
'cause I've seen y'allhave remodeled some of 'em.
You probably built some of them as well.
But the structures where they'reattached to the home, and then it's

(39:47):
a covered patio, but you can use theroof as a porch for a second floor.
I love that.
Look, I love the ability to come out on aporch outdoors outside on a second floor.
How tricky is that?
Because you have another load, component,which is obviously the people in the
furniture and everything like that.
And then also you're working with.
The railing and stuff like that.
Is there a lot more,issues you could run into?

(40:10):
There is, because younow have humans on top.
And so looked at a little differently.
So when you're doing that, done quite afew of those as well, where you basically
have a balcony that becomes a patiocover where a lot of builders of homes.
We'll build balconies, butthey're not a patio cover as well.
So they're open, it's a single tiertop layer, water goes through them,

(40:31):
and everybody gets wet if they'reunder it, they're just a balcony.
And we'll often go tear those out andbuild a patio cover slash balcony,
and they do have a little bit moreparameters when it comes to load bearing
and weight, simply because you're nowgoing to have people walking around.
But you have to remember,composite shingles and decking
and all the lumber that goes ontop of a roof is pretty heavy.

(40:52):
But it's distributed differently.
So when you have humans up there, youcould have ten people all leaning at
one area on a rail, whereas shinglesare spread out across the whole roof.
So the weight may be similar,but here's the thing.
How many people are goingout on your balcony?
I don't know, is it five, ten, thirty?
There's no way to really gauge that.
So when you're building those,we always get those engineered.

(41:15):
Always.
And you then build thema little bit differently.
Depending on what you're putting onthe surface, we're offering doing a
composite decking, which is heavy stuff,and then we're waterproofing them, so
it's clean patio cover underneath, andthat may be with like a TPO, which is
a type of, call it plastic, you put onthe roof, you put rolled roof on that,

(41:37):
and you build on top of that, and thenthey'll torch it in, some tar to seal
it all up, Or we may use a rain escapematerial that is basically plastic troughs
that run the water off into gutters.
There's a number of ways to waterproofthat, and then there's a bunch of
other materials they make that go onthe ceiling that'll do the same thing.
PVC products and things of that nature.

(41:58):
But to your point, Yes, you definitelyis, you have to look at it differently,
and there is a little bit more to itbecause you're now building a bottom
level, finished, and a top level,finished, and then you have what's
in the middle, which is the water.
So you almost have three layers now.
To account for, that you have to do, andthat middle layer is the waterproofing,

(42:21):
whatever you choose to do there.
The bottom layer is the ceiling,and the top layer is the floor, and
then you gotta put a rail around it.
is little bit morecomplexity there in cost.
Just due to the nature of it.
And then of course, from a codeperspective, you really are better off
having an engineer sign off on that.
So the waterproofing that'sunderneath there you mentioned

(42:43):
several different things.
Is there one that you prefer?
I actually prefer, the simplest, thecleanest and with the most assurance.
We have our roofer who actually doesa torched roof It's basically A roof
material that he puts down and i'mexplaining this in layman terms instead
of using all the big words that nobodywill understand And it's like a tar and

(43:05):
he burns it in with a torch seals thepost seals flashes it into the house Then
he actually puts a composite material ontop of that and then we just build on top
of that There's a million ways to do itand every builder will tell you something
different We've used the trex rain escapesystem before and it does work Well,
but there are some things if you can'tput a pitch on the deck It's an existing

(43:28):
deck Sometimes you have to just use thatand that's literally plastic troughs in
between the joists that the water runin Okay, I do like that system as well.
It's a little more complex Andthere's a little bit more to it.
It gets a little bit sticky.
sorry, would you be able to see thetroughs from underneath the patio?
Not if we're covering it up withtongue and groove, you would not.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.

(43:48):
If you have an open rafter, sure, you'relooking right at those they call them,
you know, the, you have scutters andthen you have these, it's basically
pieces of plastic and you angle themso the water runs in that plastic.
But now there's some companies making aPVC type of plank or panel material that
goes on the ceiling that has channelsfor the water to travel into that.

(44:10):
The biggest thing is you have toconsider the risk of leakage over time.
With movement, with contractionand expansion, there's a lot
that's going on, on those balconieswith people and, elements.
That's why I really like the rooferto come in and torch it up with Tard.
He seals every corner andcrevice and post, and then he
counterflashes it into the house.

(44:31):
And that way to me is probablythat's the method I prefer.
Some other guys may havestuff they rather do.
And that's just the one that I havefound that I like the best thus far.
Yeah.
I've done a couple of those inmy career and we've got one under
construction right now that's actuallya, it's a deck for the top and then
underneath it's a equipment room.

(44:54):
And so we're using the pans in between the
tracks, the rain escape, the
yes, that's
a great product.
a good product.
It's just you're usingbutyl tape, a lot of cock.
a lot of things that go into it.
It gets pretty complex.
It works good.
I have it on my deck.
It works relatively good.
There's a little bit more room forerror there with your guys doing it.
And so again, I have noproblem with that product.

(45:16):
I think it works very well.
just found that, like I said, whenI have him come out and torches
that thing in and tars it up, good.
It's
good.
I
do also got to pitch the deck though.
You have to cheat a little bit.
So essentially if I'm cheating the deckslightly this way, I have to then come
in and level the floor, with that,you can make it all level and you just
pitch troughs down to the scutters,

(45:39):
you do a lot of solid roofs,do you do a lot of pergolas or
equinoxes or anything like that?
We do quite a few, we usedto do a lot more, I think is,
you know, our client basis.
Changed a little bit intothese larger structures.
We'll sometimes do both.
They want a big covered patio on theirhome And then maybe out by the pool They

(45:59):
want a nice pergola because it's moreof a yard art unless you put some poly
on the roof People want to be out of theelements and that's the first question I
ask them Do you want to be out here in theelements because if it's raining a little
bit your pergola is out If it's the sun'sdirectly over you may or may not want to
sit under the pergola in the summer here.
It's really personal preference Andyou're paying a lot for the cost of the

(46:21):
materials because generally your pergolais all exposed cedar So you're paying
for all that there's more board frequencywith the lattice on top things like that.
So generally People are looking forreal coverage Most probably 90 of the
pergolas i've ever built Have some sortof poly on the roof and they're built
for performance So they still allow lightnatural light to come in or people maybe

(46:45):
want to put their plants Or they don'twant it to be dark in their kitchen But
they want to be able to get out of theelements and sit under the pergola and
get some shade and they make Tinted andclear poly material which are both great.
So that's in a roofed structure Isnot that much more when you do a
pergola with poly a roof structureis not terribly more expensive

(47:07):
Yeah, the times I've had to do it, it'susually a height restriction with a city
code wise, or, we're trying not to blocksome windows on the existing home, you
know, is where we've had to do those.
Yeah,
they're
I mean,
they're beautiful.
They look great and theyperform really well.
What it is, it's a pergola.
So do you get in doing lot of masonry?

(47:29):
Like you mentioned a kitchen, butdo you guys like build fireplaces
in the structures that you're doing?
We do a ton of masonry work.
So our primary work is goingto be structures masonry work.
That's our two largest.
And we're, that's the areas that wefeel we're the most competent and not
that we're, not in the other areas.
It's just, I think those, you really canset yourself apart from the quality of

(47:50):
work that you do to our masonry work.
I call it artisan because he'sreally that he's not just a
brick layer that also does.
Mason work, which a lot of these guys are.
And so we do a ton of stone work, a lot offireplaces, a lot of fire pits, kitchens,
and almost every structure we build.
And then we'll do raisedbeds, retaining walls, benches

(48:11):
stone walls, wrapped pillars.
But yes, we do a lot of masonry work.
So are you getting into when Istarted, it was all, chop stone.
That was it.
That's what everybody loved.
And now people are wanting, porcelainand, even tiles and stuff like that
because they want stuff that's more ofa clean look instead of the what they

(48:32):
call the Texas masonry, so are you doingthat too, or is it mostly just stonework?
Yeah.
I'm with you 100%.
That's the directionpeople are starting to go.
You're still going toget traditional stone.
We've started doing a mixture of bothI've done a few projects including my
own at my own home and i'm mixing tileAnd stone and now we're bringing in

(48:53):
some porcelains for countertops youknow doing travertine and even marble
on the face stonework And using lootersinstead of just being a looter's top,
they're building it completely out oflooters, to get that smooth Clean square
edge finish and sometimes in my opinionAesthetically, you have to be careful

(49:13):
with that Because they're less forgiving.
A tile, especially a porcelain, it'sbeautiful, it's very unforgiving.
If you chipped it, you have chipped tile.
If if you use porcelain on thecountertop, if you chip it,
you have chipped porcelain.
It's just that's just the name ofthe game and you have to understand
that if you got a bunch of kids, Iprobably wouldn't recommend putting
porcelain on your countertops.

(49:35):
They're going to get chipped.
And with real stone, to your point, we doa lot of ledger stone, which is basically,
backsplash material, and we do primarilystill heavy, heavy in the chop business.
We do a ton of chop in the looters.
The Austin stone is real heavy.
We call it an Austin white or a nicotine.
The Oklahoma stone is going away.

(49:56):
It's a little dated, but some of yourtraditional people like that stuff,
the oranges and tans and Browns,but yes, definitely getting more
contemporary now with ledger stones.
Porcelains, tiles, things like that.
Do you do a lot of graniteor decton countertops?
Or is it a lot of limestone?

(50:16):
we do primarily looters or granite,and we've done a few porcelain.
Porcelain's beautiful because you canget it any way you want it, and you
can get it exactly how you want it.
That's the beauty ofporcelain like the waterfalls.
Those are real popular They call it awaterfall where it goes up and over the
counter and back down the other side,
right?
The whole thing's covered.
That's really popular with the porcelainWe primarily and I tell everyone

(50:38):
this for outside The granite and thelooters are best just because they're
durable and if you chip them youcan sand them and fix them If you do
anything else It doesn't work that way.
you got to get rid of that and puta new piece It's just how it is But
now with a lot of contemporary buildsWe're definitely getting into some of
those other things we're starting touse cladding people are wanting to do
cladding on their outdoor kitchens now,not even stone they're using different

(51:01):
types of aluminum cladding vinyl plating,composite cladding and so they're
taking commercial grade products thatyou would see on a commercial building
And tying them in and using them onTheir home on the residents in their
kitchens and in their outdoor areas.
We've been doing tile onwalls Behind kitchens over

(51:22):
brick that's becoming popular.
They're making the outside looklike their kitchen inside That's
what people are looking for now.
Most definitely.
the health and wellness industry hasgotten really big ever since COVID.
And people are wanting spacesoutside that they can enjoy.
Is that something that'saffecting what y'all?

(51:45):
Some people are looking for everythingfrom, gee, can you, build me a sauna
in, or can we come in and do, anoutdoor shower or, yes, I want a lot
of turf so I can, do yoga out here.
I'm just curious if that's impacted y'all,
Absolutely.
We have definitely seen that we'vealways done some, quite a bit of turf.

(52:06):
Cutting greens are very popular right now.
Turf in the backyard in general isvery popular because no maintenance.
It's beautiful year round.
Kids can go play out in it.
It's permeable.
You can water it and cool it off.
Everybody talks about how hot it is.
Their kids can go play and not get alldirty and in the grass and whatever else
the dogs don't track a bunch of mess.

(52:26):
And it's becoming extremely popular forthat reason, because people are just
outside more, it's like in the seventiesand eighties when I grew up, Everybody
stayed outside all the time, right?
And it stopped and then kovatcame and everybody went back
outside again and realized.
Hey, you know What ispretty good out here, right?
And kids sleep betterbecause they're exercising.

(52:47):
So yes, we're seeing a lot of that.
Building rooms In addition to structureto put a cold plunge or a sauna in
Definitely got a few requests forthose that we're doing Added space
for an office because people areofficing at home now an additional
room to put their workout equipment inor a door coming out of their garage.

(53:07):
Cause they work out in the garagewhere their gym equipment is.
They want to come out of thatdoor and come outside to the pool
area or the outdoor living area.
So it's definitely influencingthe business for sure.
100%.
going back to the turf whatmistakes do you see people
when they're installing turf?
Because turf has blown uptremendously in the past.
Probably since COVIDprobably even before that.

(53:27):
It's a great product, but thereare issues with installers
I've seen throughout the years.
So is there any common things youwould warn homeowners about to
make sure that the, again, thebest quality turf experience?
Sure.
A few things, definitely the companyand the installers important.
cause again it's becomebastardized like this industry.

(53:47):
In general, there's a lot ofguys using less expensive turf.
They can get it cheaper And oftenthose are the guys that are you
know, doing everything they canto do it the cheapest way possible
Yeah,
so the quality of turf is number oneWhat kind of warranty are you getting
is it a reputable company that when youcall them for warranty in two years?
They're going to answer the phone.
You want some history there likeanyone in business the substrate.

(54:09):
What are they using under the turf?
How thick is that substrate?
Because as you all know,when these monsoons come,
all that stuff shifts around.
Are they compacting it appropriately?
A bigger issue is drains.
A lot of these guys aren'tputting drains in this turf and
you have big problems with that.
do.
They think you've got pools ofwater in your turf and then starts,
causing all kinds of other issues.

(54:31):
the other thing I would say is definitelyunderstanding the grading of a yard.
In making sure that you're followinggrade because people don't realize that
all these new neighborhoods They'rebuilt for the water to grade from one
yard to the next to the next or tothe front of the House or to the back
when you start playing with that gradeby adding six inches of substrate
or four inches of substrate You cancreate water problems for the home.

(54:55):
And last but not least, I would say, forsure, leaving some sprinkler heads in the
turf, because it does get hot, and if youhave pets, they're going to urinate on it.
You want to cut the sprinklerson and just clean the slate.
And cool it down and wash everythingoff of it just by default or if there's
a bunch of pollen or whatever you gotgoing on you run that sprinkler and

(55:15):
get a fresh start on it, so Those area few of the things that I see and
then just proper installation, which isinteresting They used to use staples,
galvanized, they no longer use galvanized.
they put long nails in that rustover time because the rust and causes
the nails to stay in that substratebetter and the turf doesn't pull up.

(55:37):
I mean, It'll take 10 yearsfor them to degrade completely.
But using galvanized staples the turfwas getting pulled loose everywhere.
So now they're using these giantnon galvanized nails that rust over
time and the rust becomes almostlike A glue into the substrate and
that's how they're doing turf now
I know about the nails because was onthe back end of construction back in

(56:00):
the day and I remember these a coupletimes they would poke holes through the
drainage Which was funny or in pipes thatthey shouldn't I didn't know why they
switched from staples to nails, but that'sinteresting So also a big thing with turf,
people sometimes, I don't know if it'sthe homeowner or if they just want a lot
of it or what it is, but blending turf, Ithink is key when it comes to like design.
Do y'all have anypreferred ways to blend it?

(56:21):
Cause I know there's areas for like.
play some golf here or this partof the yard is not accessible.
So let's put turf there, or maybethere's too much shade, put turf
there to keep it green year round.
Are you putting like planterareas around it or separating it
from the actual natural grass?
How do you do that forblending the turf in?
It's very subjective.
So the good thing about it, if youhave a really good turf people, which

(56:43):
we do, fortunately, you can takeand create those elemental changes.
So even going around trees andputting some rock around the
tree and following the roots.
Guys that are really good withturf, they won't just do a circle.
They'll take the turf upinto the roots of the tree.
So when you look at it, itliterally looks like grass.
Often they'll just do a circle, putrock in there, which is not a problem.

(57:03):
It just depends on the situation.
To your point, when you're tying it indifferent areas, there's a different,
slightly different turf for a golfputting green than there is regular turf.
And then you have to look at,if you have a lot of pets, you
want to use a different infill.
Make sure you're using a pet basedinfill that's not going to start,
smelling over time and holding bacteria.
As far as how you're laying it, you canbring it right up to flower beds, you

(57:26):
can bring it right up to pool coping, youcan bring it right up to poured pavers.
In those cases, you really want to justassess the usage, how much traffic's going
to be on it, what's going to be happeningthere, if it's strictly aesthetics.
Maybe it's not as important, I think allthose factors come into play is really
understanding its use How much trafficit's going to have are you putting it?

(57:48):
You know, Is it going to be in awet area where people are getting
out of the pool and getting on it?
Or the dogs it's just for the dogs onthe side of the house over there You
know, or are your kids out there, youlittle young kids playing on it all day.
So all of it becomes very subjective.
And yes, you want people thatunderstand those parameters and
really know what needs to be where.
So I think having aneducated person on turf.

(58:09):
A lot of these guys that don't normallydo turf, whether they normally do
other things, whatever that maybe, they say they can do turf.
Not that they can't, and not thatit's bad, but I think there's more
to turf than just the turf itself.
Same thing I talk about concrete.
Not all concrete is created equal, so theguy you find on Facebook or Craigslist or
wherever you're looking for six dollars.

(58:30):
may want to really think through that.
It's not and I think you guysare both very well versed
in this so you understand.
Yeah, chicken wire doesn't work.
Chicken wire, yeah.
Wow.
I tore up some concrete from the70's that had no rebar in it.
And it was a driveway.
It did have some cracks.
Not horrible.
We tore a whole driveway out.

(58:50):
And, it was, 50 yearsold, and I was shocked.
There was no rebar.
None.
Nothing at all inside of it?
Or was it just formed up?
Okay.
Wow.
It was formed up oversome decent substrate.
And poured concrete.
Yes.
It was shocking.
I was shocked.
It wasn't terrible.
I was pretty shocked.
Things have changed over time.

(59:11):
I'm sure batch mixesand all kinds of things.
Yeah, it was probably a 5, 000 PSI car.
It was probably from thehighway or something.
Who knows, right?
Wind is a big thing, I think, instructures that people don't think about.
And so they want to use thisstructure, they want to use it in the
fall, in the winter, in the spring.
And we've got some wind going.

(59:33):
And so I've seen threedifferent things used.
And I just wanted to know what youthink about those three things.
I've seen people use a screen to givethem some protection against wind.
And I've seen people use shuttersbut there's two different types.
I've seen aluminum shuttersand I've seen wood shutters.
So give me your thoughtson those three solutions.

(59:54):
If you were going to do it atyour house, what would you do?
So a couple of things tothink about here, Mike.
Number one, I love screens more thananything because you have more control.
They will cut down on the wind, butnot eliminate the wind and vice versa.
they also have more of a function.
They block sun, but still theydon't block all the light.
They keep bugs out if you'regoing to completely screen in.
When you go to shuttersyou're drawing the line.

(01:00:16):
You're saying this is what'sgoing here now, because it's more
of a permanent ordeal where Someshutters open up some accordion.
I really liked the aluminum shutters.
If I wanted a more permanent, wedo a lot of slat walls as well.
You've probably seen the wood slatwalls and then you just create
the spacing, however you want.
I would strongly leantowards aluminum shutters.

(01:00:39):
most permanent would be a slat wall.
We're not walking through there.
We're probably not going to go that wayWe just want to block some of the view
some of the wind I would say do somesort of wood slat wall, even if you
want to put a door on it We've done thatas well second more permanent Aluminum
shutters, I think they're more durable andthey look really nice and they function
really well, but they are quite costly.

(01:01:01):
And the screens are gonna be notpermanent, but you can control the
screens, you can roll 'em down a foot,six foot or all the way to the ground
and you have more control over those.
And it gives you a different environmentbecause you can still completely
see through the screens when they'redown, but you get the sun protection.
So I think subjectively.

(01:01:21):
It really depends.
Like some people go, hey, I havethis west sun in the evening.
don't want to deal with it at all.
It kills us.
It's coming into my kitchen.
We did one with shutters for that and Ican send you a couple pictures of that.
Or they go, we're notgoing to go that way.
I don't want to look at myneighbor cooking dinner.
I want to slat wall and putvery small spacing in it.
And then other people are like, wewant to go to control our environment.

(01:01:43):
Let's roll the screen.
We want to go to roll screens up and down.
And to me, the screen is usually thebest option overall, because it does all
of it, but you have a lot more control.
That's just my personal opinion.
Okay.
So what color screen,
depending on the structure if youhave, say match the structure, so when
it's down, it goes away, it hides.

(01:02:04):
I like to match if we're using apecan stain, you'll use a, certain
color of brown or bronze thatmatches whatever the stain is.
If you have a dark coloredstructure, it's painted.
If you have a painted structure tomatch the house, match the paint.
So I like screens to blend in and go away.
I like, things to look verynormal and natural and match
what's going on with the house.
So aesthetically, they'rea lot more pleasing.

(01:02:26):
That's just my personal opinion.
That's interesting.
I've only seen black screens.
I think of it now.
That's because you can getthem any color you want.
Yeah.
They
come in different colors.
I always tell people they wantblack, so I was, that's an interest.
Yeah,
it is interesting.
One thing we had a homeowner they wanteda slat wall, but they kept on describing,
they're like no, no, no, it's a slat wall,but it's adjustable, like an equal, and

(01:02:47):
actually you can still open it up it'sthe same aesthetic of as a slat wall.
Does that even exist?
It does.
they're like shutter controllers.
Okay.
You have to put the wood in them.
Here's the challenge a lotof people don't understand.
it's thinner wood that goes in there andyou can only span a half inch thick piece
of wood so far before they start sagging.
Okay.
So those are for smaller runs, butthere's a couple of guys over in

(01:03:10):
Europe that in the UK that havea product that's pretty cool.
They make them in their fullshutters, wooden shutters.
Otherwise, you're justgetting a custom shutter.
You just have to remember, even witha one by piece of material that's
three quarters of an inch thick,when you're running at a certain span
flat in time, it's just going to sag.
And if you got shutters, then they'reall jacked up and not going to work.

(01:03:31):
So yes, There is a product youcan buy to do that, but your
span links aren't very big.
So now you have multiple shutters.
You can't do like a 10 footspan with a shutter on it.
Yeah.
That doesn't work in
the aluminum can go a lotfurther, but the wooden ones just
in time, start having issues.
if you run them generally, you'regoing to go maybe three feet with

(01:03:52):
those, maybe four at the most, becauseif not, you're going to get sag.
In time from just theweather, so The answer is yes.
There are products that can dothat and there's guys that have
built all kinds of cool stuff Butit really just boils down to long
term functionality and maintenance.
And that's really what Italked to customers about.
So when you have a ceiling and astructure you have, if it were,

(01:04:14):
it's just perfectly smooth where youjust see tongue and groove cedar.
Or do some people liketo see a lot of beams?
Is there one way or theother that it's done more?
It's very subjective.
It's like people like glasstile or regular tile, right?
It's kind of the same thing.
It's a personal preference.
And so they want ceramic orglass, They both can be beautiful.

(01:04:36):
I like my spa and glass and therest of my pool and ceramic.
That's just me.
But I think.
To your point, we show people multipleways we can do ceilings and it
really depends on them because evenwhen we do an open rafter ceiling,
which is the exposed beams, youcan see the rafters in the ceiling.
That's going to give you a littlebit more of a rustic lodgy feel,
right?
You do a smooth finish ceiling.

(01:04:58):
It's going to give it a little bit more ofa contemporary feel because you can then
take that tongue and groove and paint it.
You can stain it, you can go reallydark, you can go really light.
You can do whatever you want with it.
We also have some other productsthat we're working with now that are
just beautiful, phenomenal products.
One of our sponsorscurrently is Rainier Plank.
And they're a partner of ours, andtheir product is one of the most

(01:05:19):
beautiful products I've ever seen.
We've got it in a structure, we're aboutto shoot some video of it, and it's a
clean product, but it varies in color.
So even if you stain it with allthe same stain, the boards, almost
every board is a different shade.
it's astonishing when you look at it.
It's beautiful.
So, Then we'll do what's calleda cathedral ceiling, that I call
it cathedral, but really whatit is, it's a larger rafter.

(01:05:43):
Which is going to be a fourinch or six inch wide rafters.
When you look up, it's this big bulky, youknow, rafters that just really stand out.
Again, we'll add a false ceiling ontop of that to run our electrical.
So you don't see all the conduitand wires and all that mess.
And seeing a lot of people just.
Run the conduit in the ceiling.
We always do a false roof on it.

(01:06:04):
So we hide it all.
this is boring But to me, I thinkit's important that people think about
you put gutters on all your projects.
We do well, I said we do some peoplesay I don't want to gutter and they
usually regret it later Because itbecomes a waterfall, you know, you know
but
you got to remember they're buildingwhole neighborhoods without gutters on
houses right now because The logisticsare 2, 500 a house times 1, 000 houses.

(01:06:30):
Why am I going to spend 2.
5 million and get no value out of it?
They're not going to not buy thehouse because it doesn't have gutters.
But I tell everyone the same thing.
If you don't put gutters onhere, a couple things happen.
It's going to be like adilution of water coming down.
Flooding your yard that wasn't therebefore you have additional roof that's
dumping water in one area It's not comingdown like rain anymore and you've now

(01:06:52):
taken some of your grass up with theconcrete So you have a less permeable
surface So you want to take that waterand disperse it to where it needs to
go so that we put gutters and channelit Generally, we go underground with
pop ups and take that water to where itneeds to be The second thing is when you
have that going on and you're sittingon your patio on that water is just
pouring down over the sides Or even, towhatever extent, it's also eroding your

(01:07:16):
yard and potentially eroding up againstyour concrete, which is why you're
supposed to put gutters on a house.
It causes erosion up againstthe foundation and all
your dirt and your grass.
So there's a number of reasonswhy most of our structures, 99
percent of them, we put gutters on.
Yeah, I highly recommend gutters.
My house does not have gettersbecause my soil is pure sand.

(01:07:39):
So literally
very permeable.
It's great for that.
Now try to keep that grassalive in the summertime.
Oh man, that's the biggest pain inthe world because you can sprinkle
it in 10 minutes later to dry.
Yeah over there and he I think yougot a little higher clay content.
So there's definitely a lot of
clay around, but you got to remember onthese new neighborhoods, they're coming

(01:08:01):
in and grading them all with sandy loam,which is essentially what you have.
Then your landscapers come inand generally they'll get a
thick matted side to put down.
I like to always do a, you can buytopsoil, which topsoil now is clay
and sand that's been mixed together.
So you get that middle ground with it.
And generally they'll may havesome emulsified, earth in there,

(01:08:24):
some other things that havegotten mixed in or what have you.
But generally I like to go ontop of either clay or that,
select fill, which is sand.
A little bit of clay in it and putsome topsoil and then sod, then
you have some substance there.
But most of these neighborhoods,if you notice, they're all built
and they're stepping the propertiesand the drains between these

(01:08:44):
houses are absolutely horrible.
Yards flood.
They're constantly got big.
These are 600, a million dollar homes.
It's just normal now.
And they do drains up to code spec withcorrugated plastic material, which, in
time doesn't drain very well, he justgets all jammed up and stopped up.

(01:09:04):
We use solid four inch and six
inch.
That's the way to do it.
Yeah.
That's the way.
Let's talk about true crime.
So you think of a circumstance wheresomething happened to a homeowner and
you can attest that's a true crime,what happened, warn them on What
they should do to protect themselves,

(01:09:25):
That's a there's a pretty good broadspectrum on that one thing really talk
about a lot is when you're meeting withsomeone looking for someone to build for
you I think it's important that you doa little bit more research than just a
referral or some Google reviews, whichare nice I tell everyone the same thing.
I think you should deep diveinto the company and the person.

(01:09:47):
Go look at their personal stuff.
Go look at their history.
Look at their reputation.
How many business names havethey had in the past 20 years?
Other than the one thatthey're showing you, right?
Y'all know how that goes here.
What is their personalsocial media look like?
What does that look like as a company?
What is their history and reputation here?
Look at their reviews, look at, you cango to next door, you can go into social

(01:10:09):
media and you can learn a lot from peoplenow a lot more than we could before.
And really dive into who you're dealingwith because ultimately you're in bed
with that person you're trusting thatperson Even if they have a great company,
you're really counting on that personSo better business bureau another great
place to go people complain there, butyou can buy things now you can buy reviews

(01:10:30):
You can buy likes you can buy all youcan buy all that stuff now Okay, you
can buy it all so you got to be reallycareful and I tell them don't just go
a page deep go deeper than that rightkeep going put their name in Google
and just see you know There's you know,seven businesses in the last ten years.
You may want to think through that Sothat's the first step really know what
you're dealing with and then when you meetwith them You should be interviewing them

(01:10:53):
as well and making sure they're the rightfit just like, you know us as contractors.
We should be Really making surethe client is the right fit for us.
I think it's important that if we're goingto, you know, of course we can all say
yes and do the job and grunt through it.
But as y'all know, probably fromexperience if you're not the right
fit, man, it can be pretty bumpy ridefor both parties and it's not good.

(01:11:14):
It's not that anybody'smalicious or means anything bad.
It's sometimes personalitiesor expectations just.
Don't align so I tell them haveconversation with them talk to them
Not just about their business and justreally see how comfortable you feel with
them gauge their Response times theirfollow ups, you know how diligent they
are, are they prompt What's all goingon with all that stuff right learn a

(01:11:36):
little bit more about them So I wouldsay that at the front Because often you
read stories of people that got takenadvantage of and that's where i'm going
with the true crime As I told you guyswe've been on a few projects That got
sideways, that went bad, the structureswere bad, and some of these companies
started off pretty good companies.
Ten year reputation.
But what you find out is they'resubbing other people to do that work.

(01:11:59):
Their company has got ten years ofgood reputation for doing X. But now
they've ventured off and tried to doall these other things, and they're
subbing out whoever can do it forwhatever amount of money they're
trying to pay them to get it done.
And now you start having problems.
I always tell people this, when you'relooking at a company, the name of their
company should be their core competency.

(01:12:21):
It shouldn't be 30 things on theside of a truck that they do, because
they're not doing all those great.
Now, some of it's encompassing.
We're Outdoor Living.
I tell everybody we doeverything from the walls out.
I'm not a remodel guy.
Mike, I know you dopools in Outdoor Living.
I don't dig holes either.
I'll do some stuff remodeling ona pool, but I don't dig holes.
I have no interest in building pools.
None.
And so it doesn't say outdoor living.

(01:12:42):
Oh, and by the way, we can doa pool too if you want, right?
I might as well say that right now Thereason I say this is because i'll go
look at reviews of companies and they'llhave 30 really good reviews And it's
like a fence, or handyman work, or aflower bed, or they fixed my mailbox.
And you go, I'm hiringthem for a 100, 000 patio.

(01:13:04):
And I'm like, you betterpay attention here, okay?
That's where people, Ithink, make a mistake.
It's not that they're not a good person,or they're trying to be a good company.
you need to make sure they're theright people to do the job that you're
asking them and paying them to do.
And that's where the crime starts,and it's often, yes, the person gets
taken advantage of, but you have atwo fold process with your contractor.

(01:13:28):
Either he was taking a gamble to see,hey, here's my opportunity to see
if I can actually go do this, right?
I think I can.
I know some guys.
Or, he just wasn't capable, took onthe job and thought that he could.
And those are two issuesthat happen a lot.
And there's consistency and lack ofconsistency when you're dealing with
trades, when you're dealing with subs.

(01:13:49):
If you got concrete guys that aren't usingthe same finishing guys every time, your
concrete's not going to be consistent.
If you have framers that are bringingin new guys because half their guys
left, and you're expecting the sameoutcome, you're not going to get it.
And often guys are selling work thatthey've worked as a worker on the job
And now they're trying to sell you thewhole project and be the guy they don't

(01:14:10):
know how to run a job They know how todo the work They know how to frame or
concrete or stone or do the pool gun eyedor whatever it is They do but now all
of a sudden They're trying to run thewhole business, project manage, run all
the subs, deal with the customer, and sothen we move into things like insurance.
I've seen more than once.

(01:14:31):
These guys will go buy the 80online insurance, get the permit
and never make another payment.
And you don't even knowwhat the coverage is.
I've also heard stories of this.
People go pull permits.
They get the permit, and theynever call a single inspection.
They finish the whole projectand collect the money.
But to the customer,Yeah, I have a permit.
I have the permit.

(01:14:51):
Never called one inspection.
Another one is, yeah, they buildout a code, and they'll be three
foot over the build line, finish thejob and get paid, and they're out.
And they call for that final inspection.
Or they finally call an inspectionor the person goes to sell the
house and you have a structurethat's three foot over a bill line.
You have to take some of the structureoff, or we have a lien against your

(01:15:13):
house, or you're in a violation.
Now how much is that reinforced?
It depends on a lot of things.
Sometimes HOAs are harderon you than a city.
Oh yeah.
So where I'm moving this over to.
Is it starts at that point the day you'remeeting and interviewing these people?
Getting three bids and picking the oneyou like the best is not always The best

(01:15:33):
practice it's more pick somebody youlike because you're about to get in bed
with them And it's going to get dirty andfrustrating and challenging and they're
going to have problems and it's goingto rain and you know You're going to be
you're going to come home from work Angryand you're going to be mad that nobody's
there that day this is going to happen.
So do that first Do some homework, makesure there are people you feel comfortable

(01:15:55):
with, then you need to dive in withthem and set expectations, both parties.
I think if you'll do that upfront, the rest of the stuff
generally goes relatively well.
I think that's where most of the mistakesare made right out of the gate and then
communication and having the expectationand understanding what's going on.
And so to me, that's where,we've experienced a lot of

(01:16:17):
issues in the past from.
Expectations and that but a lot ofthe builders I see out there a lot of
people will tell you about a horribleexperience with a contractor About 80
percent of people will tell you I hada bad experience with a contractor
Now they got a bad taste in your mouthand they're going to hold you hostage
Because of this other, it's I got out ofa bad relationship this person and now

(01:16:37):
you're in for it because you're nowsuffering from that, You guys would agree.
Have y'all dealt with any of that?
Trust issues for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the crime.
Let me get a little further here.
You told me to go deep, so I'mtrying to go all the way to the, lay
down and tell you where it started.
It started when I wasfour years old, right?
That's where we're going here.
But the crime happens because of that.

(01:16:58):
You've got someone that told youthey were capable of doing the
job that you're paying them to do.
You trusted them to do it.
maybe they weren't the cheapest one.
Maybe they were.
I don't know that.
Yes or no.
I've seen it both ways.
So then you have to ask yourselfdid I do my due diligence and did I
make them aware of my expectations?
And did I really do everythingI could up front to make sure
I was hiring the right person?

(01:17:19):
And then really speak to them about howthey were going to build our project.
So in our case I'm going to educate youif you knew nothing about construction
You're going to know exactly how i'm doingyour project and how it's built When I
run you through my sales process before wemove forward And then we have about three
more meetings before we break ground.
We have kickoff meeting, we have adesign meeting, and then we have a

(01:17:40):
trade meeting where we're on site.
And I think all those things arenecessary because even with all
that, still get into projects andthere's still challenges, right?
The crime occurs.
Because you have employed someone todo a job that they probably weren't
adequately prepared to do, or theyexperienced something between then and

(01:18:01):
now in their business, whether they losttheir best guys and didn't tell you, or
they cut some corners, or they got shortsomewhere on a job and they needed to
make up for it financially, something hashappened now that's created that problem.
I think that's where thecrimes, a lot of them start.
And that's just my initial thought.
I can get into some details andthings because like I said, we've

(01:18:22):
tore down structures and rebuiltthem and people call us and ask us to
fix their stuff and I don't do that.
I don't repair any structureever because then I own it.
If I touch it, I own it.
It's mine.
Yeah.
So To me, that's thebiggest prime right there.
It goes South from there.
I agree.
100%. Yeah.
So one of the things I tell clientsis if you're going to look at a

(01:18:43):
review, go look at their house reviewsbecause house reviews are vetted.
You can't call in 50 of them, and getyour friends to call in and like with
swimming pools, they'll actually confirm.
That there's a swimming pool onthe property that type of thing.
and like you said, there's oneguy that's got 160 house reviews,

(01:19:04):
but it's, he cleans pools.
his reviews are, he cleaned the poolreally well, you know, that type of thing.
And oh, are you going tolook at him for construction?
That's a totally different animal.
Then, oh, I'm going to design a,a half a million dollar project
here and put it in your backyard.
little bit different thing,
And to that point, here's the thing.

(01:19:24):
I see this a lot as well, where you have.
People in all different fields of workand look nothing against those guys
and some of them may be great A lot oflandscapers do outdoor living some of
them have guys that do it Sometimes theyjust sub it out But often I see a lot
That if somebody can just throw you outa number like mike, I know i've seen your
work I know what kind of poles you build.

(01:19:45):
They're absolutely gorgeous If Isaid hey, man, want to pull What
do you charge me a square foot?
I got a customer.
I need to give them a bed Howmuch are your pools a square foot?
There's never a square foot price.
But in my business, they'llgo well, I got a guy, he'll
build it for 38 a square foot.
I'm like well, what's he building?
What's material for 38 a square foot?
I say this, look, how much is a fourdoor house or how much is a two door car?

(01:20:09):
I mean, that's what we're asking, right?
How much is a four bedroom houseor a. You know what I'm saying?
Like how much is that, andthat's what we're talking about.
because you're a custombuilder, you're building things.
You don't have spreadsheet withwell, my, this pool is this much.
And my, this pool is this much.
And my, this pool is this much.
And so that's how we are.
So when these guys call me, a lot ofpool builders calls and go, what we all

(01:20:30):
charges a square foot to build structures.
I'm like, what do you want?
That's why I generally don't do that.
And the guys I do work with.
We go in strategically, theydo their part and I do my part.
I go in and meet the customer.
That's the way we work.
Dynamically, and if we'vehelped each other out, then
we, take care of each other.
But, other than that, I don't really subunder people because it just doesn't work.

(01:20:51):
I'm not interested in that,
no, you build a good product,stand behind it, and then that's
what you take care of your stuff.
you don't have to be asub to somebody else.
Yeah.
And not that I'm against it.
I'm just for me, I think need tobuild a deal directly with the
client and, have those conversations.
I can give you one more crime if youwant, you know, a little more granular.

(01:21:11):
Sure.
but your comment that you just made, Ithink is a hundred percent with a custom
thing is I have to talk to the customer.
I have people come to me andthey're like, the worst ones.
Are the professional athletes they'relike you can't meet with him, but
we're going to have his assistant meetwith you and discuss what he wants.

(01:21:32):
And it's like, this is a train wreck.
There's no way in the world that he'sgoing to understand what he's getting
if I don't communicate with him.
Well, I'm sorry, butyou can't meet with him.
And it's like, I'm sorry.
I can't perform somethingthat I don't know what.
And there's so many questions, Iask, and I'm sure you do as well,
cause you're going into detailsand you're trying to pull out all

(01:21:55):
the things that are best for them.
You can't do that through an assistant.
You You have to meet the clientand be able to talk to them.
And again, that's where it goes backto expectations, because then when
you have clear expectations on whateach other are going to be doing,
you put someone in between the twoof you just don't see how that works.
I've never had it work in my

(01:22:15):
career.
A lot of the time, the clients don'teven know what they really want.
They think they do.
And then when you go through the questionsand get to know them better, you realize
what they're trying to tell you whatthey want, but they couldn't tell you.
Yeah.
They couldn't put it in words.
An assistant
can't do that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, I just.
Yeah, we've had a few wealthy peoplethat have a, they call them their
project managers, which basically it'stheir assistant and they run everything.

(01:22:38):
They do everything, which isfine, but they're telling us
all these things that they want.
And we're asking them all these questionsand they got to go back to the client and
they come back to us and I'm like we needto see it or we need, a design or we need.
They need that.
And I'm like man, this is pretty clunky.
Don't you think?
Is there a way we could just jump onmaybe a or a Google call with them?
I mean, if they want to blanktheir screen, that's fine, but at
least we can have a conversation.

(01:23:00):
If they want to, they don'twant me to see them or whatever.
That's fine.
My account manager's dealing with one now.
And he's like, It's really odd ronnielike it's very strange and i'm like
well, I think to your point mike feelmore comfortable doing that because
there's questions that i'm askingthey haven't thought about them, you
know things that they haven't thoughtabout In the scope of their job and
then so This is what I learned if Idon't mention it And they think of

(01:23:24):
it later and want to add it they go.
Why didn't you tell me this?
It's my fault, right?
If I mention it up frontAnd I give them the idea.
They're like are you just tryingto sell me something else?
And I'm like no, not.
this is what I tell them.
I'm going to be transparent with you andtell you everything, all the possibilities
in the realm of what you want.
That's what I'm going to share with you.
So you tell me, you start byyou telling me what you want,

(01:23:45):
and then we can talk through it.
I'm going to listen to you, and thenI'll share with you the possibilities in
the realm of that, and you can decide.
I learned that with paintcolors or stain colors.
If they pick something and theydon't like it, It's my fault.
They say, why didn't you tellme that this looks bad if I
pick it and they don't like it?
They say you're the one that picked it.
It's your fault.

(01:24:06):
So I tell them I have no involvementwith that I'll show you the colors.
I'll show you projects.
You can come on site and see them I donot make color choices for anyone ever.
I just don't i've just i've lost toomany times we don't like to stay in color.
Can you change it?
You picked it You told us thislook good and it doesn't like well.
Oh, yeah,
So That's kind of thatside of things, you know

(01:24:27):
you have another story, I'malways up for another story.
Yeah, I've got one for you.
I tried a masonry crew out one time.
And I'm very reluctant to do that.
I have very good people.
And so I have a short bench becausethe people I have, they're very
loyal and they're very good.
And the reason I keep a short bench.
I would rather have more time I'drather take a little longer than go

(01:24:49):
find more guys and be inconsistent.
Okay.
Not to say there's not multiplegood guys, but the guys I have, love
and trust and they do a great job,but clients get super frustrated.
Now the speed of the world.
Is gotten ridiculous and the expectationthey think that construction is like
their job on a computer or amazon orWherever they're doing business at they

(01:25:10):
don't realize that we're dealing withmultiple human elements and multiple
people multiple conditions Supply chainseverything that goes with it they're
doing meetings with a hard stop at 201and the next meeting starts at 207,
you know That's their world, right?
We call it surgical Constructionis not surgical but back to my
story I Had these masons that wewere going to try out this guy.

(01:25:31):
I met him He said yeah, i've beendoing mason work for 30 years.
We do this.
We do this with this show me somework great I take them and I give
them a couple small things firstand we're watching them, right?
They do a really great job onResurfacing a fireplace for me
in a house just ledger stone.
Just a simple task, right?
Then we move into someother minor stonework.

(01:25:54):
Then I say hey, I have a fireplacein the kitchen I need you to build.
No problem.
They came out, they built the fireplace.
They started off early, and when Iwas watching what they were doing,
I'm like, hey, this is great.
They're really prepping and preparing,and, they're doing all these great things.
We watched them.
They're dropping, stringlines and everything.
I was trying to reallyget this thing correct.
So then we leave.

(01:26:15):
I'll come back later inthat day to check on them.
We come by the project and they'vemade great progress because
there's a bunch of guys there.
But here's the problem.
these were primarily bricklayers doingstonework and they are not the same.
So when they're aligning and doingcertain things with stone, our masons
now will cut and level And chip everysingle stone that they put in place,

(01:26:39):
right.
Instead of making sense of whatyou have and then just shoving
pieces or thicker water where, andthat's what these guys were doing.
So the premise of thefireplace was great, right?
Like well, then theygo to put the looters on.
And they zero my countertops out.
So the looters, instead of hanging overa couple inches is flush with the stone.

(01:27:01):
And I said, man, you guys said youguys have done this a lot before.
These are brick guys.
They have, but they're doing brickfireplaces, not outdoor living
where things are just different.
You
know, they're also not doingthe finishes on these things.
And so I learned very quickly.
When you bring on a new masonrycrew, it doesn't matter how
long they tell you they've beendoing, stonework and brickwork.

(01:27:23):
You have to literally make surethey're capable of delivering.
exactly what you want andthe way that you want it.
So we have a detail bookwith about 250 details now.
And every guy that works for us knowstheir details for their expectation.
So if they bring on a new guy, wegot a new guy that came to join
us today or whoever it is, great,he needs to know that detail.

(01:27:44):
So it's your responsibilitythat he knows it.
So we've done that now.
Long story short, I had to pay my masonwho I have now, the only mason I use,
To go back and make a whole bunch ofcorrections in this project and the
guy was all upset about it becauseyou know He's this is correct and blah
blah blah, but I simply told him man.
This is not how you buildoutdoor stuff This isn't it's

(01:28:06):
not the same it looks, sloppy.
Well, It's level and it's straightand Everything's good But I learned
a very hard lesson that day.
I've also learned the same lesson withyou get crews of guys that say we do
everything we can do the electrical,we can do the plumbing, we can do
the concrete, we can do it all.
Mike, I'm sure y'all haveexperienced this as well.

(01:28:26):
And the answer is no, they cannot.
Jack of all mastering it,
get people at what they're good at.
And remember a Mason does not necessarilymean they're really good at stonework.
You would think pool tile was a relativelysimple task, but I'm going to tell you
what, you know, as well as I do, there'sa lot of stuff that goes on with that,
yeah, somebody that says, oh, I can dotile and coping and boulder work and this

(01:28:53):
and that, it's generally the case is not.
You we believe in you'rereally good at something.
And we're going to hireyou to do that one thing.
And what we'll do is we'll pull anotheryou off when you finished what you're
really good at and bring somebody elseon or what they're really good at.
And, clients are sometimes why can'tyou get one crew to do all that?

(01:29:15):
Why did I have to wait three daysin between this crew and that crew?
And I'm like, becausethey're both experts at that.
And that's all we have them That
is correct.
That's exactly what I do.
I do not overlap.
I do not overlap ever.
And I tell customers that.
And they expect when you start thatsomebody's going to be there every day,

(01:29:35):
all day, you're going, you're goingto have six guys all working at the
same time, compounding their effort.
Like people that knowcommercial construction.
I go, yeah, when you're in ahundred thousand square foot
building, you can have 20 guysin there doing multiple trades.
You can't what we're doing.
They're all on top of each other.
They're blow up breakers.
They're running into each other.
Scaffolding here.
You can't do that.
It has to be generally maybe twotrades at a time, but generally

(01:29:59):
they're going to go in phases becauseno one wants to be there when the
masons are there with all that dust.
No one wants to be around all that, so
I tell clients that Half the time,nobody's going to be on your job.
That's just the reality of it, becauseI work with good people and I'm going
to wait for that good guy to showup on your job and do his skill.
And then
that's a great line.
And then once he's done, then I'mgoing to bring the next one in.

(01:30:23):
And do I know how long he's going to take?
No.
So that's why there's going to be a gap inbetween the next crew that comes in that
way, you're going to live with it forever.
Okay.
If it takes.
Three more days to build it.
Who cares?
you do care, then let's give you yourmoney back right now and part ways.
So anyway,
I'm the same way.

(01:30:43):
I'm exactly the same way.
And I love when they tell methis they built the house.
They're building the houseacross the street faster than
you're getting this done.
I said, yeah, and here's the difference.
When they're done with that house andthat person moves in for the next two
years, that builder is going to be comingback and fixing all the stuff that they
rush through that you walk in and gothis is terrible and this is horrible
because you gave him a date and he has tohit that mark and he's going to hit it.

(01:31:05):
All right.
He's going to have a different, he'll havea different brick layer there every day,
a different paint guy there every day.
He doesn't care.
And he'll just, we'll comeback and do it in the punch.
And then for the next two years they'recoming and changing doorknobs and fixing
trim and carpet problems, everything else.
And They just don't know and I thinkthat's why what you guys are doing is
great The same thing I do in my contentis you've got to educate people, man.

(01:31:26):
They just don't know.
It's expectations.
Like you said, a hundred percent ifyou set the proper expectations, you're
going to land in a much better space.
Not that you won't have problemsbut you'll, it'll be much,
yeah, I had a guy at one time talkedabout some problems in one of my videos.
This contractor goes, you really shouldn'tbe exposing your problems to people.

(01:31:47):
Maybe you should consideranother business.
And I go, sir, are you saying asa contractor you don't have any,
are you just lying to people?
I mean, What are, you'reobviously not in the business.
I read that post . I saw it.
Did you read that
post?
Yes,
I
did.
I was,
I said, you're obviously not inthe business if that's your, yeah.
Do you know Stephanie Bellinger?
think it's calledBellinger Outdoor Design.
She does a lot of bigboulder stuff outside.

(01:32:09):
She's been in the business a long time.
She's my neighbor.
She doesn't build pools, butshe's involved in all that.
She does a lot of bigstones and big stuff.
Her name's familiar, but I don't get overto that part of the Metroplex that much.
Oh, that's
right.
You guys are in Fort Worthor no, where are you at?
Mid cities right by Dallas FortWorth airport, is kind of the hub

(01:32:32):
and then radiates out from there.
So people all the time are likewhy don't you come over there?
I'm like quite honestly, there'speople that are really good at.
Yeah.
And what we do over there,there's no reason for me to
drive an hour to get over there.
that's why we don't travel overthere that much, but yeah, if you
really want us, okay, we can go
travel costs, which is going to put ushigher than someone that's already good.

(01:32:54):
So
yeah,
there's truth in that.
Yeah.
Especially when there's a problem,
it's not 08 in 2010, which we didtravel farther during those days.
And so then, yeah, and thenpeople were like why don't
you want to come out here now?
And it's because there's plenty ofwork five miles from my house now.

(01:33:15):
And so thank you for the opportunity, but.
It'd be someone else tobe better to serve you,
I'm with you.
I remember during COVID.
when I was really just getting fired up onthese big structures, I remember going to
walk the hatch job South Lake job, right?
Didn't job and then back intoMcKinney and back to Rockwell.
Like That was my route today.

(01:33:35):
And I'm like, man iskilling me out here, but
that was during COVID.
yeah, this was, I mean, because wehad sold a bunch of jobs and so.
these are all big projects
and I'm
like, oh, we can do it.
We can do it.
I hadn't reeled everything back quite yet.
This is 5 years ago.
Yeah.
When it first started, everybodywas a little nervous and then all

(01:33:56):
of a sudden, then it went nuts thenwe were all running like crazy.
tell people all the time, we'reblessed to live and work where we
do cause the building industry sureis doing well especially compared
to some other parts of the country.
I know it doesn't do as well, evenback in 08 and 10, I had buddies that

(01:34:16):
were in California and Arizona that.
Their work just disappeared.
And yeah.
In California during Covid, some of'em were not allowed to work because
they weren't considered essential.
It's crazy.
Luckily we were crazy times.
Before we end the podcast, I alwaysask our guests a couple questions
that are pretty easy just to getto know you a little bit better.

(01:34:37):
Pretty much what's your favorite book?
Favorite movie, favorite meal and
place to
go he had a place to go.
there's book,
Traction.
Is probably my favorite book.
It's about the theentrepreneur operating system.
It's a very good book.
It's called traction.
It's a great book I'm, not a big reader.
I'm a listener.
Yeah,
that's a good one Your next five movesby patrick pat david's another really

(01:34:58):
good one But traction was helpfulto me to really understand processes
And
then your next five moves is reallythinking long term about where you're
going with Your business and whatyou're looking down the road at.
So those are probably my two favoritethat I've listened to that I really liked.
And then you said favorite place to eat.
Just favorite meal.

(01:35:19):
Oh man.
I'm a foodie dude.
If you can't tell by my 250pounds, I like a lot of food.
My favorite meal.
I'm probably going to say,I've got several, so you're
putting me in a tough spot.
I would say in restaurant wise.
I could go eat at Papa Do's probably everyday if I had to pick just one restaurant,

(01:35:39):
and I like pretty much everything there.
Outside of that, wife makes alot of great things, but that's
a place I could just go and eat.
I'm a pretty big pizza guy, too.
You understand, very vast inthat, but I'll give you that
those things that are important.
Babe's Chicken's anotherone that's always good, so.
what was the other one?
Favorite movie.
Movie.
And place to go.
Yes.
Man, favorite movie.

(01:36:00):
Those are hard questions.
I can go classic way back.
Yeah.
Or I can go,
What
is it today?
It always changes.
Yeah.
Man, today,
I would have to say it's going to bea toss up between, Probably like the
original Rambo and Braveheart, man, aretwo, two good ones, I can put 50 of them

(01:36:21):
in here, but those are two good heats.
Another good one like, see, I can'tgo on your and then you said place.
Yeah.
Or do you want to, you got a week togo somewhere where you want to go?
Now we'll go to Switzerland.
I'm not a big traveler.
I'm out and bike a lot, but every timeI see pictures of Switzerland, I want
to see things that change my perspectiveon the world, You know what I mean?
And I think I'm an outdoorguy in every picture.

(01:36:43):
I see a Switzerland.
I sent her to my wifeand go, I like to fish.
I like to ride bikes, but Switzerland tome, it's like, everything is breathtaking.
There they do.
Have you guys ever been?
No, it looks
beautiful.
No, I've we backpack actually a lot.
And I've always looked at the NorthernItaly and Switzerland is, there's
some pretty cool mountains there.
So that would be
fun.
I want to go to Europe as well,but if you have me pick one, I

(01:37:05):
definitely want to go to Italy.
My family's from Palermo, Italy.
So I'd like to go there atsome point in my life, but.
So if I had to pick one, I'dprobably go into Switzerland first,
we greatly thank you for your time.
You've shared some really great stuffand we just wanted to have you on.
I've like I said, saw that one reviewI've listened to several of your Lots

(01:37:25):
of your information, so I'm alwaystrying to learn from people, so I
appreciate your insight, knowledge,I'll have to consider a different route
on screens because I've always beenblack, but you brought up a good point.
Thank you guys.
I appreciate y'all allowing me tocome on and it's been fun, man.
I'd be willing to.
you guys ever want to just pow wow,talk shop, whatever, always open to it.

(01:37:45):
I enjoy talking thebusiness of the business.
And so thank you forconsidering me and having me.
If there's anything I can everdo to help you guys, let me know.
I'd be more than happy to.
And I think Y'all definitely dosome beautiful stuff for sure.
have fun.
Thanks again.
And we'll talk to you soon.
Awesome guys.
So Take care.
Have a good night.
Have a good one.
Bye bye.
That was a good episode.

(01:38:06):
Wow.
Yeah, lots of information.
I'm gonna have to refigure screens.
Yeah, there's a bunch of differentthings that we wanted to detail, and I
mean, the overall topic of structuresis interesting because we had was it,
john lee yeah a lot of john lee's
episode kind of the information wewere getting from there kind of gave
me an interesting perspective it'scool to hear from different people on
similar topics I guess but obviouslythey're not completely similar.

(01:38:28):
Yeah so john's doing a lot of deck workwhich almost everything's got a balcony.
Exactly.
On his stuff versus this is almost all.
And what's interesting to me isthere's a lot of people that build
structures, but they don't attachthem to homes and what people need to
understand is when people do that as aspecialty, that's a lot more difficult

(01:38:53):
and it requires a lot more precision.
Cause if you don't do all this right,you've attached something that's going to
liability to the house,
tear your house apart.
Yeah.
He talked about it with one of theprojects he had to take over, which is,
you have to make sure that it's, I don'tknow why anyone would even consider doing
a job like that and it not be engineered.

(01:39:14):
That doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Well, The other thing that was ironicthat I thought, and I've never thought
about this, they go and build it andthey never call for an inspection.
Oh, yeah.
That makes sense because we've had peoplewhere they don't want to call the city
because obviously they might have likepre existing things that they've done
in the backyard to the house and they'relike nervous about having a city permit

(01:39:35):
called, but we're not going to do that.
You're going to have to calla permit for us to work there.
So I understand that becauseI've seen that side of the
business but yeah that's crazy.
Like, Are you evergoing to sell the house?
Cause you have to eventuallyget an inspection.
Well,
What he said is some of the timethat they're over the build line.
That's crazy.
I've seen surveys where I'mlike, what happened here?

(01:39:56):
Cause the house is over the buildline and I'm like, I can't do that.
How'd they get away with that?
Yeah.
But.
Lots of Ronnie had, there'slots of jewels in there.
This episode just check it out.
We'll have lots ofhighlighted clips from here.
I'm sure.
Yeah.
There's, I can't really consider like,Oh, what did I take home most from?
Cause there's so much, and I'mgoing to go rewatch it obviously.

(01:40:16):
Cause there's, you're not going to beable to digest everything on one watch.
No, this is one that you'll wantto listen to a couple of times.
Yes.
We'll look forward to the next one.
We've got some good ones coming up.
Yeah,
we got some good stuff lined upThank you for watching everybody.
Comment down below on youtubeand if you're on spotify or
What is the apple podcast?
Go find our instagram we cantalk on the comment section there

(01:40:38):
Yeah, and if you go down to scroll allthe way to the bottom, you can do a
review.
please do a review, please.
It'll help out the podcast tremendously.
Thanks again.
Have a good day.
This show is all about helping you becomea better buyer, a better pool owner,
and hopefully you're gonna find someinsights into how to enjoy your pool even

(01:40:58):
more so how to help your friends, yourfamily, anybody looking to buy a pool in
the future or that want to remodel theirbackyard, add an outdoor fireplace, fire
pit, add an outdoor kitchen area, addsome shade cells, or whatever else it is.
We wanna be that resource for you, andthat's the end goal here, and we promise.
That there's gonna bea ton of information.

(01:41:19):
We'll try to go through it, youknow, as relatively quickly, but
also slow so people can understand.
But the intent of the show, thereason Mike and I are doing this
is because we just got a lot inour heads and we wanna share it.
So we hope to see youhere every single week.
Thanks for listening.

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