Ep 079 World Sauna Group with Mark Raisanen

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike (00:00):
Mark is the current Vice President of Retail Programs of Bathing Brands Inc,
which leads the World Sauna Group divisiongearing towards the pool and spa industry.
Prior to coming to Bathing brands,Mark was the director of sales
and marketing for Sauna 360.
Over his 31 years at his former company,he helped build networks of dealers

(00:22):
and sauna evangelists where they hadcoverage of every single state and most
major markets across North America.
As a child, mark grew up going tosauna with his brothers and dad and
grandpa, and continue to use hisown sauna nearly every, every He
counts among his favorite memories,taking his 92-year-old grandfather to
sauna when he was just a young boy.

(00:45):
Look forward to talking to Mark.

Intro (00:49):
Welcome to Luxury Outdoor Living Podcast with Mike and Trey
Farley of Farley Pool Designs.
For over 40 years, we've helpedhomeowners turn their backyards
into personal retreats, spaces ofjoy, relaxation and unforgettable
memories, and whether it's a cozy as.
Escape or a resort style oasis.
We design it all.

(01:10):
We know how overwhelming a projectcan feel, and nothing feels worse than
a homeowner having a bad experience.
And that's why after decades of designingand teaching in this industry, we're
here to share our knowledge, helping younavigate the process with confidence.
Every week we break down designtrends and insider tips that
turn your vision into reality.

(01:31):
And since this is about creating somethingamazing together, drop a comment.
If you have any questions, ideas, orjust want to be part of the conversation,
if you find this helpful alike, helpsget this out to more people like you.
And if you want to keep upwith what's next, go ahead
and hit that subscribe button.
We'd love to have you along for the ride.
Let's build your paradise together.

Mike (02:04):
So Mark, it's great to have you on Luxury Outdoor Living Podcast.
tell us one thing that wasn'tin your bio that would be
interesting to know about you.

Mark (02:12):
One thing in my bio that wasn't in my bio or interesting.. I
guess I tell people I have 10 kids.
I have five of my own and five withmy wife and we got six grandkids.
So That's interesting to some people.

Mike (02:23):
Oh yeah.
That sounds like a lot of fun.
you guys all get together at one time or.
Is that kind of hard?
We

Mark (02:29):
do.
It gets a little crowded at theholidays, Christmas time, cause now
there's most of our kids are in theirtwenties now and they're getting
married and the group is growing.
So yeah, it gets a little crowded,but it's a lot of fun and love
kids and I love grandkids, so itkeeps us busy and we're on a lake.
So we got plenty of to do.
You can enjoy the lake in the summerwith the boats and kayaking or
canoeing or in the winter we cando ice skating and ice fishing and

(02:52):
we're blessed to be where we are.

Mike (02:53):
I understand that I have three kids not 10 but we have five grandkids so far.
That's been fun look forward tohaving more fun with all those.
you have been in the saunaindustry for a long time.
So tell us how did youstart in this industry?

Mark (03:12):
So I've been around sauna my whole life with my Finnish heritage.
My family had a sauna atour farm where we grew up.
We would sauna at leastevery Wednesday and Saturday.
And once we put an electric in thebasement, we would sauna nearly every day.
And so I grew up using it and loving it.
Where it got involved in the industryis my family was involved in bringing
sauna to this area of the countryin northern states and as importers

(03:36):
from a company out of Finland.
And then they were doing itmore as a sideline or a hobby.
And then my older brother decided, youknow what, I can make a go of this.
And he took all the risk andownership investment and decided to
make a go of it in the late eighties.
through a series of changes over theyears, he became a minority owner
by the parent company out of Finlandand I joined the company in 91, I

(03:57):
think I was their sixth employee.
at that time we were a prettysmall company, about one and a
half million dollar company Asfar as market share, maybe 10
percent of the market at that time.
But within short order, we becamethe market share leader within a few
years by the mid nineties, I think wewere already the largest by that time,
based on all the data we could findon the import records and industry

(04:18):
intelligence, you could call it.
the year that I left my formercompany, that company that I started
with was in December of 2022.
We were a little bit, nottoo large in the industry.
Certainly the Harvey was there nippingaway, but we were roughly 55 million
at the time I left the company.
Went through a tremendous growth.
Through those years and that'show I got started in it.
My family was originally involved andthen fell into it through their first

(04:42):
sales manager was trying to pull me in.
And I agreed.

Mike (04:45):
All right.
So over that period of time,I'm sure there's been some
radical changes in the industry.
can you give us a little bit ofbrief history of SANA for people
that aren't familiar with it.

Mark (05:00):
Yeah, so I'll just tell you, mostly purely from my perspective, I
can't give a lot of the history in the70s and 80s other than to say in those
periods, a lot of people don't know thatSaunas were sold through Sears Robot
Catalog in the 70s and actually a lot ofheaters were sold into North America in
those years based on data from our parentcompany that I learned later in my life.
So saunas have been around North Americafor a long time, but I'll say from the

(05:23):
60s, 70s, 80s, and even the 90s, withmy experience now coming into play from
92 on, it was mostly a heater industry,which means people were building their
own, they'd buy their redwood, whichwas a very common wood at the time,
or cedar, and they'd build their ownsauna and they'd need a good heater.
it was mostly a heater.
Industry from the seventiesand eighties, especially.

(05:44):
And then I would say in 92, when Istarted, we probably sold five heaters
for every room we'd sell by itself.
By the time we got to the turn of thecentury, I would say we were probably
two heaters to every room whereyou'd sell maybe one heater by itself
where somebody built their own.
And then another heater with the roomkit where we were selling the full kits.
Throughout all those years, infraredcame on by storm, mainly due to a good

(06:08):
price, but also due to, you could saya little bit of misleading marketing,
trying to call it better than traditionalfinish sauna at delivering heat
or sweat, which is, was not true.
It just delivered in a different way.
My former company, when we gotinto the industry, we were calling
them infrared heat therapy cabinsbecause they weren't a sauna.
Here's a little side story for you.
It's actually unlawful to callsauna infrared sauna in Germany.

(06:31):
passed the law that it's misleading.
And so there, they call them infraredcabins and it is more accurate,
but here in North America, it'sused the term sauna since the
eighties and never got away from it.
now we just always makesure you use the term.
Infrared in front of the term saunawhen you're referring to an infrared
whereas traditional Finnish saunaYou can usually call it sauna the
true definition of the word is sauna.

(06:53):
It's a Finnish word It's the only Finnishword in the English dictionary So
you take a look at the Finnish saunaa lot of people say well, that's kind
of a Not oxymoron, but it's just kindof redundant to say finish sauna, but
nonetheless, it's been forced on usbecause of the infrared influence in
the industry, it's not bigger, it's notbetter, it's just different and it's good.

(07:14):
And our company sells both andthey're for different purposes.
And we can talk a little bitabout that after a while, but
sauna is where I got my start.
And then we became one of themarket size leaders in infrared
as well, later in my career.
We can go on so many differenttangents today, but a steam
bath can feel as hot as a sauna.
A steam bath at 110 degrees canfeel as hot as a sauna at 190.
There's this rule out there calledthe rule of 200, where you take

(07:38):
the combination of Fahrenheit pluspercent humidity, and when you start
getting over 200 with the combinationof the two, it generally gets to
be uncomfortable for most bathers.
So you can sit in a sauna at 190.
And be relatively dry, 10 percenthumidity, and it feels comfortable.
You'd be in a steam bath at 105 degrees,but a hundred percent of humidity
can start to feel too hot becauseyou're not able to sweat, So yeah,

Trey (08:01):
it's interesting.
use this all the time, but I tried asteam room in Cabo when I went on little
spa day, with my fiance with the sauna,you get the dry heat and you might get
the humidity when you're really high and,some people might throw water on side
panels and stuff like that, The other one,the steam room is so much more peaceful
because I wasn't in excruciating heatbut at the same time you still get like

(08:23):
that suffocating feel with the humidity

Mark (08:26):
yeah, it really envelops your body.
A steam bath.
We always talk about from theterms of benefit of the steam bath.
It's much more of a respiratory benefitfor your lungs and sinuses and so forth.
You don't get a lot of the detoxand sweating benefit where you're
getting rid of the heavy metalsand you don't burn as many calories
cause you're not sweating as much.
So you get joint reliefpain or on your joints.

(08:46):
using the steam bath, similar to thesauna and a lot of the time where people
have found sauna to be excruciating heatis usually two things have happened.
Somebody has either poorly the room,so you don't have much oxygen, so you
feel claustrophobic, maybe you startto feel lightheaded or get a headache.
So ventilation is one of thebiggest and most commonly overlooked
parts of designing a sauna.

(09:07):
And then the other is they're notallowing you to either use steam,
which can help comfort and coat thesinuses and help you for breathing.
A lot of people think it's the opposite.
Now, granted, if you're running it at 195or 200 Fahrenheit and throw steam, that's
usually uncomfortable for most people.
So, The average is probably 175to 185 for most of the people to be
comfortable and still throw steamon the rocks, breathe through it.

(09:29):
My company has this unique heater, andthis isn't meant to be a commercial
podcast in any way, but my company hasa heater that is revolutionizing on the
global scale with the air movement inthe sauna, it's called an air perfect
heater, and what it does is it takesthat heat bubble, because in the
sauna, your heat bubble is in that top
Two to three feet near the ceiling.
And that's why you always needtwo, three tiers of benches in

(09:50):
a traditional sauna typically.
But by putting in the air perfect,it brings that heat bubble
all the way down to your toes.
And it's also easier to breathe.
It pulls more oxygen into the roomdue to this little unique air design
feature built into the heater.
So it pulls in a lot of oxygen.
my wife, she didn't grow upin the sauna and she loves.
Our air perfect heater because shecan just breathe through every steam

(10:10):
and it's like it's comfortable.
She gets a good sweat going and itdoesn't feel stifling in any way for her.

Trey (10:15):
That's actually really underrated because I know guys that
have canceled memberships becauseAsana is better at a different gym.
And that's huge because there's somesaunas that go to this really nice gym
and they have this really big open sauna.
It's like, maybe y'allneed more heaters in here.
I don't know what's going on, butit definitely gets hotter up top.
People will stand in some of thesaunas just to get that hotter air.

(10:36):
But that's huge.
If you can get that more balanced effect.

Mark (10:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
yeah, it's a big deal.

BBQ Intro (10:44):
We are gonna take a break here for a second and get into outdoor living.
So with outdoor living, we like togo to barbecue bits here we're gonna
share some information of everythingthat you may want to consider in
your outdoor living space as far asfeatures, especially for the kitchen.
Hope you enjoy this.

Mike (11:04):
We can't use electric, right?
'cause we don't have the amperage for it.
We're gonna go to gas.
So we'd switch to Abramic.
Keter at that point.
That's right.
Okay.
So tell us about Broek.
Keter.
Why?
Why

Bobby (11:15):
Broek?

Mike (11:15):
Yeah.

Bobby (11:16):
It's like you said, while you was sexy.
It looks nice.
They have two versions.
They have the Tungan version andthey have the platinum version.
Believe it or not, the tungsten version'san open face, so it's gonna have more
bq, it's gonna have more heat coverage.
We sell a lot of platinumsbecause of the look.
What is the cow or the eyebrow on top?
What does that do?
It allows you to get intoa combustion clearance.

(11:37):
So above that heater, that is thedistance to the ceiling you see up
there, it's 14 and a half inches.
That's how close I can get away.
From combustible, from wood.
Okay.
Whereas if you direct your phone overhere to this box heater, which was in the
Andrews Street since the early eightiesyou have to have 36 inch clearances above.
That's not correct.
You have to have a lot of room abovethat heater and it's pretty invasive.

Mike (12:01):
Right?

Bobby (12:01):
So when you go to Mick more streamlined, more contemporary
the one question we'd get, Hey,does it have a high and low?
It does not.
We don't do that with gasbecause they can blow out.
So it's on or off is what it is.
And this is the same gas as electric.
You wanna buy 'em in pears anddefine that area is what you want.
Cool thing about the some of the gasheaters, they do have drop poles.

(12:24):
So if I have extremely high ceilingsand I wanna nestle them into a
corner area, I can do a blockedceiling, drop it down two feet.
And mount that heater on that particularpole and still not be invasive.
Also, I can do a back to back mount.
So if I do a center positioningwhere I wanna cover two areas, I can
provide a drop hole and I can mount'em back to back, is what we can do.

(12:46):
Pretty cool situation.
We have an area to where customercouldn't do two together, but
he wanted to cover some area.
So we did a center support, block thetop drop pole, and then face out heating.
And it gives you a lot of versatilityversus the larger heaters.
In other words.

Mike (13:01):
So these, the sizes this comes in or do these they're.

Bobby (13:05):
The great question, two sizes.
There's a 500 series and a 300 series.
We kind of relate that to panels.
So this is a 500 series.
It has five panels in it.
The 300 series has three panels in it.
We'll very rarely usethe three panel more.
Five more is more withheating with the bra and gas.
What's the coverage?
Same as the electric 11 by 11 area

Mike (13:27):
is what it's, so you're gonna put two units in for an 11 by 11.

Bobby (13:31):
You, you want one unit?
We'll cover 11 by 11 area.

Mike (13:34):
Okay.
And then just wanted to clarify.
Yeah.

Bobby (13:36):
Yeah.
20, 20 feet in coverage of the definingarea for two is really what you want.

Mike (13:41):
Awesome.
Appreciate it.
Now that came up with this new one.

Bobby (13:45):
So this is new.
This is their eclipse version.
So the eclipse is really cool.
It's called an eclipse.
And I think what, next month orthis month, we've got a, we've
got an eclipse coming, right?
But this one here has in thesummer it used as a light.
It looks like an eclipse.
It's a low voltage.
It's LED Halo is what it is.
And then you can also use itas a heater in the winter.

(14:07):
This has what we call arm type mountthat's a pediment mount and then
they have, or a direct drop mount.
The element up inside of it isimportant, but the glass that covers
that makes the heater what it is.
It's for heat distribution.
If you've ever seen any inductiontops that have what we call the shot
ceramic glass, this is what this is.
Shot ceramic glass.
It disperses heat evenly andit will cover a 10 by 10 area.

(14:31):
The gradient is 33 66 0.99.
It's high, medium, low, and youcan use the remote with that.
So does that rotate to different angles?
It does not.
It has different mounts.
It's gonna be a permanent mount,but you, it's always gonna be facing
straight down like that and static.
No he, above that, it's all downward.
And this is.

(14:51):
For heating.
This is the newest to thecategory in outdoor heating.
Well, It sure is cool looking.
It is, yeah.

Mike (14:58):
What would you say the height that you're gonna be working with this is?

Bobby (15:01):
If you'll notice in all onic literature, when you start surfing
through it, you'll find out that 96inches, eight feet is your minimum.
Your maximum is about nine to 10feet where you can be okay on these.
But it's value added on areal contemporary setting or.
If you've got a specific areathat we just specified, we put
a couple of them out there.
It's gonna be interesting to seehow that ends up and what that looks

(15:22):
like a little more contemporary.
And it's different.
It's not what their neighborshave or what's standard and
offered in the industry.

Mike (15:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The one client loves it.
So we're finishing up the architecturaldrawings on a, with the house.
Yeah.
But they love everythingwe did with the pool.

BBQ End (15:38):
So I hope you enjoyed the barbecue bits that we just featured today,
and we'll have more coming up next week.
If there's something in particular thatyou're interested for, let us know and
we'll get back into the episode now.

Mike (15:52):
We jumped into a side thing because of my question, but.
for somebody that's checking out anddoesn't understand a lot about Asana.
Why don't you give us the basics of,structure and basic benefits of using one.

Mark (16:06):
Yeah.
First of all, the Asana is goingto be a wood lined room and
generally it needs to be a softwood.
It
You can also get soft hardwoodsthat work well in Asana, Like Aspen,
for instance, it's a very soft.
hardwood that you can use in a saunaand performs very well in a sauna.
But basically, it's a woodline roombuilt of a softwood and the reason
why it needs to be a softwood isyou're running at high temperatures.

(16:28):
And if you're trying to use an oakor maple or something in a sauna,
it's just going to bake you likean oven and you don't want that.
You want the wood to absorbthe heat and release the heat.
in a soft manner.
And that's what a softwood does.
Furthermore, you need a rock heaterin the sauna that is going to get the
room to 140 to 194 Fahrenheit with thataverage being around 175 to 185 for

(16:50):
most bathers if you're trying to dialin where most of the people want it.
the lower the temperature is,generally the more people are going
to want to be able to throw steam.
Because if you start getting below175, down to 170, 165, if it's dry,
it's going to feel almost cold.
So you do need the ability to have steam.
If you're getting upwards of temperaturesof 190, now you can be at a temp where you

(17:10):
don't really need the steam for everyone.
Some people like it.
Completely dry, desert dry, I'll callit, and they just want to sweat that way.
But a true sound of the definition, ifyou look in the dictionary, it is the
combination of the heat and the humidity.
It's not one without the other.
You do basically need both.
Honestly, that's the best partabout being in this industry for
me, is that When you own your own,you get to do it how you like.

(17:31):
There's no right or wrong way.
Despite anyone who owns one,they act like they're an expert.
The fact is, they're an expert onhow they like to use it and enjoy it.
The way I am, let's just get you inone that you're going to use the most.
Whether it's infrared, whetherit's traditional finish, whether
it's hot, whether it's cool,whether it's wet, whether it's dry.
For me personally, I can giveyou from personal experience.
I vary it to how I'm feeling.

(17:52):
If it's in the winter and I have ahead cold, I'm going to turn that
down to one 55, one 60, and I'llprobably put a bucket of steam and
15 minutes, but I will be so steamyin there and it clears up my sinuses.
I'll probably add eucalyptusto the water, but I've just
been able to clear up my head.
I've been able to, then I can fallasleep easier versus let's say maybe
I have the flu or I've been out.
On the lake ice fishing, and I'mjust chilled to the bone and cold.

(18:14):
Well, I might crank it up to this maxsetting of 194 and go in there and
just bake it out and throw a littlebit of steam to help induce the sweat,
but just sit there and lie down.
So I even vary it to how I'm feeling.
Most of the time I'm aroundthat 185 190 is perfect for me
with a fair amount of steam.
But every one is different andthat's the beauty of your own sauna.

(18:36):
So the sauna is a wood line room,rock heater, ability to throw steam.
You don't have to throw steam andthen you will need proper ventilation.
Often overlooked, especially decadesago, people are getting it now.
want to build it in a mannerthat it's going to perform well.
A lot of designers and architectsand people who, know how to make
a home look beautiful, they designa sauna poorly because they want

(18:56):
to keep nine or ten foot ceilings.
Absolutely the worst thingyou can do in a sauna.
Eight foot, that's even, I'll say, apoor design, but with a lot of standards
nowadays, at least commercial, alot of places still want eight foot
for various reasons, so that's okay.
But the standard in Europe is 2meters, and that's seven foot here.
They'll even go down to two metersin Europe as a common ceiling height.

(19:19):
It's just more efficient and works better.
I don't even know if Ianswered that question.

Mike (19:23):
No, No.
You gave some great information.
And there's saunas that can beinside your home and there's saunas
that can be outside your home.
Correct.
So is there a big, that's

Mark (19:33):
another thing that's changed over the last 30 years.
I well, it's alwaysbeen indoor and outdoor.
entry level and luxury and infraredand traditional and all that.
But I would say when I started inthe industry, probably 90 percent
of the sales of my company wereindoor, only 10 percent outdoor.
You had those I'll say more of the,maybe the Scandinavian or Nordic

(19:53):
crowd, or some of the, what they call.
Maybe people who like to use the wordauthentic, they felt it had to be
outdoors and it had to be wood fired.
And frankly, those are the best.
That's what I have in my cabin.
It's my favorite sauna in the world.
I fire up the Woodfire Saunaand I go jump in the lake.
And Lake Superior is cold year round.
It's always cold, but it's themost euphoric feeling there is.

(20:15):
But outdoor is one of the biggestchanges in the last 10 years where
outdoor saunas have come on by storm.
Part of it is the introductionof barrel and cube saunas.
And they're not great in theirdesign, like they provide a better
environment, but they're convenient.
You don't need to pour a slab, you don'tneed footings, you don't need anything.
You just find a level groundand put the barrel or cube down.

(20:37):
You could, even put it on thedirt, but we recommend at least
pea gravel or pavers or something.
But that has changed it.
But also, The fact that there'sjust so many companies now making
beautiful outdoor saunas, someof them, pre built, pre wired.
All you have to do is crane lift theminto place to the portable, like the
barrels and cubes and some of ourother portable and insulated style.

(20:57):
So, Outdoor is the fastestgrowing segment for sure.
And backyard living, which you guysspecialize in a lot, but backyard
living has also helped with this boom.
People start using their pool earlierin the season and later in the season.
Or if you're in Arizona, youcan use the pool year round if
you have a sauna near the pool.
I mean, It literally changes howyou use your pool in your backyard

(21:19):
by having a sauna back there.

Mike (21:20):
used to be one a year now it's five or six a year, so it's becoming more of
a mainstream request to have part of asome people call them a wellness retreat.
They want a sauna and they want a coldplunge and they want a hot tub all
incorporated in the project so they can.
Go through all these differentthings or use them independently.

Mark (21:43):
yeah, you're right.
I remember about 15 years ago when saunafinally hit the statistics with the
National Home Builders Association, howmany new housing starts include a sauna.
It was never even a statistic.
All of a sudden it was like one and ahalf percent were like, Ooh, but when
you look at it, okay, 400, some thousandnew housing starts a year or whatever,
all of a sudden it's like, okay, we'rehere, we're arrived, we're coming.

(22:05):
And now I don't knowwhat the percentage is.
I haven't seen it in theirstatistics, but Salinas are becoming
more mainstream wellness is.
driving that even on Google, Saunasare more often searched now than
hot tubs that was a big day whenthat happened, but three, four
years ago, when Saunas surpassed iton interest people doing searches.
And it's an evidence with ourdealers around the country.
They're saying, yeah, Saunas aregoing to overtake my hot tub sales.

(22:27):
In short order, and there'sa few who it already has.

Trey (22:29):
can you speak on the exposure impact?
Cause I like he was talking about withthe health and wellness situation.
It's huge.
Especially in America where peopleare trying to catch up to everybody
else, because we've been very unhealthyfor a very long time with our habits,
but with like the cardiovascularhealth benefits and the muscle
recovery and the longevity and.
Can you just touch on that for real quick?

Mark (22:49):
Yeah.
one thing I would love for people to doas a result, if anyone's listening to this
and they want to do a little more study onthe wellness and health benefits, there's
an awesome study done out there uh,University of Eastern Finland sauna study.
That's all you have to type in.
University of Eastern Finland SaunaStudy and you'll find gobs and gobs of
great medical journals and documents.

(23:09):
I mean, Harvard Health picked it up.
Mayo Clinic's picked it up.
All the big name health places thatyou'd think have picked it up, but it's
because it was a true peer reviewed study.
There was over 2, 000 participantsand they were Looking at the effects
of sauna and the different wellnessaspects of what happened to them and
over 20 years that large of a controlgroup, what they found was that the more

(23:31):
often you use the sauna surprisingly,the temperature wasn't even that hot.
There was 100, I think 174 was thelike the sweet spot to be at least
that temperature warmer and the lengthof time was only 15 minutes of use.
And they were getting amazingbenefits for the people in this study.
reducing of Alzheimer's by over 60%.
It reduced heart attacks by over 50%.

(23:54):
it was the earth shattering studyback in 2018 when that was published.
That changed.
My world to a degree where itbasically proved what a lot of us
probably maybe thought or assumedwell, there's something good about it.
I just love to use it.
But here it is in a study that isnot paid by any commercial interest.
It was just a university study.
Okay, Finland is the homeland ofsauna, of course, so the university

(24:16):
that did that study and now it'scontributed to further studies on it.
So rather than get into every littledetail on that, other than to say
anything related to your heart,cardiovascular, even brain function
going to notice favorable results byusing the sauna the other sweet spot was
four times a week, so more was betterif they are using one time a week.
They didn't see much benefit at all.

(24:37):
Everyone who used it saw more benefit,but the more you used it, the more
benefit in four times seemed to be themagic number in this study of people.
There's another one.
If you want another fun oneto look at, that's I say puts
it more in American speak.
There's a doctor by thename of Dr Rhonda Patrick.
she also doesn't get intocommercial interests, so you can
trust her and her take on it.

(24:58):
She has some awesome videos.
She actually interviews the maindoctor that led this study, Dr.
Laukkanen from Finland.
She does some interviews withhim, which are fantastic.
So check those outwhenever you get a time.
But needless to say.
you know, if I'm at a home showwith a dealer or something, it not
only feels good, it's good for you.
If I could summarize sauna inone phrase, I'll say it not only

(25:18):
feels good, it's good for you.

Trey (25:19):
I just typed in Finland study cause I hadn't heard of it before.
And crazies that popped up was reducedrisk of a stroke, a 15 year old
study involving 1, 628 participantsaged from 53 to 74 found that.
Those who took sauna four to seventimes per week had a 61 percent
lower risk of having a stroke.

Mark (25:39):
Yeah, isn't that amazing?
Yeah.
And so people that you talkabout have dealers all over
the country where they used to.
have people coming in that'shave dementia in their family.
They're like it can't hurt.
I'm going to try it.
And it's not like goingthrough pain to use it.
They're enjoying it.
So it's like, why notdo something you enjoy?
And then boy, I might getall these medical benefits.

(26:00):
But that one on stroke is another one.
I had a couple of ants diefrom a stroke, but okay.
I have a lot of ants, but Thefact that it does help with that.
It just gives me comfort knowing thatI'm at least doing things to help
maybe reduce that risk for myself.

Mike (26:12):
that hits real close to home right now for our family.
For sure it does.
My father.
Passed away a week ago fromAlzheimer's and my mother in law's
got the beginning stages of dementia.

Mark (26:23):
Oh, yeah.
Sorry to hear that.
Yeah.
It's a debilitating thing and it's gottenworse or Seems like it's gotten worse.
So when you look from when I was a kidtill now And, you know, it probably has
something to do with, I don't know ifit's the toxins in our food or the it's

Mike (26:37):
our

Mark (26:37):
environment uh, all the things in our environment.
But sauna detoxifies you, thatwas even before this University
of Finland study came along.
There was a study done by Richard Pierce.
It was a US Army medical study.
And in there it had proved the amountof toxins released from your body.
And it's all toxins thatwe're ingesting in our food.
It's in other places.
So it's always been known.

(26:59):
It's been long held fact that peoplehave accepted that when you sweat,
you're getting rid of the heavymetals and toxins out of your body.
And it's not infrared isgoing to do it better.
Traditional song is goingto do it better than that.
You just need to sweat and a saunawill help those toxic pathways
better than just exercising alone.

Trey (27:15):
Yeah it's amazing.
Especially if you add it on top ofyour exercise and do it at the very
end, cause you already have yourpores open and everything like that.
And it's just like maximizing your effort.
And it helps break

Mark (27:24):
down the lactic acid, which is formed when you work out.
Taking a sauna is a greatpost workout maneuver.
Oh yeah.
Good call.

Trey (27:31):
cause I came in late.
I'm not sure if y'all talked aboutit yet, but I'm curious on the
different finishes, cause I know whatis typically used and it's honest
because it's such a great insulator.
But are there other materials thatare used and probably maybe for
just aesthetics, but I don't knowwhat the pros and cons would be.

Mark (27:45):
Yeah, I'm not aware of any I'll say man made materials that used
in sauna that would be effective.
We see some saunas where they'llput partial tile walls and so
forth, mainly for cleaning purposes.
But again, it can bake youand doesn't give environment
that's comfortable to sit in.
The only things that I say for youget different materials is that's
also been a change in the last.

(28:05):
20 years or so, where you go justbeyond Cedar and Hemlock or Redwood
or whatever, those woods now isthey're going to more of some of these
Scandinavian whitewoods, the Balticwhitewoods also decorative woods.
we use product from a company calledDecknord, which is very beautiful
decorative woods, but it's using abirch plywood, which is a very eco
friendly material, but has these.

(28:26):
Beautiful designs that yousee in some fancy restaurants.
They started actually doing thisboard type of a finish in high end
restaurants and high end homes fora decorative wall on a entertainment
center or something like that.
then they went into thesauna space cause they're.
In the heart of sauna countryin Estonia and Finland.
And now it's just become abeautiful addition, the accent

(28:48):
wall, the one or two walls.
So that's become some ofthe trends that you see.
There's a few things is lighting.
You're going to see a big improvementin lighting in the last 15 years more
subtle, low voltage, either in abackrest or under a bench maybe in a
violence, hitting a pie, but not bright,like lighting up a stadium, like so
many of the Saunas from the 70s and80s, where they just put a bunch of

(29:10):
bright Lights in there like a footballfield you go to Europe and take sauna,
you'll see very subtle lighting underthe benches, maybe in the backrest.
And that's about as bright as it gets.
And that's what our standardrooms now include just a subtle
in the backrest or under bench.
you can add more but you'rewearing little or no clothing,
especially if it's your own sauna.
most people are morecomfortable when it's dimly lit.

(29:31):
And so that's been a big change.
And then the others where you justmentioned that question tray is
these different wood or surfaces.
And so decorative woods, like myown sauna, I just moved into this
home here a year ago, and I put inthere, I have two contrasting woods.
I have Baltic Gaspin.
On three of my main walls.
And then I have it's a wax coated dark.
It's called midnightblack on my back wall.

(29:53):
then also around the heater,I have the midnight black.
So these contrasting woods and it'sjust something different that I like.

Mike (29:59):
you mentioned something that I've heard people ask before
and they weren't sure about itis cleaning in a sauna an issue?
And how do you go about cleaning a sauna?
Cause people go in there and sweat, right?
A

Mark (30:12):
lot of sweat.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
It's getting better.
It used to be one of the most overlookedissues, especially in commercial
saunas, a little bit in residential.
Most people can tell just by their nose.
But in a commercial sauna,they should wet mop it daily
because you're sweating a lot.
So you want to get the mop out and mopunder the benches, mop on the floors
and rinse everything down the drain.
As far as the benches themselves.

(30:32):
We recommend, and you, again, if yougo to Europe, they haven't figured out.
Saunas have been more mainstreamthere for three decades longer
than the U S as far as popularity.
so when you go there, they provide youlittle seat, pad or seat cover and then
you toss it with the, all the otherdirty towels or linens when you're done,
but that helps keep the benches lookingbetter, but if they're allowing you to
sit there with either your swimsuit orbare bum, depending if it's co ed or

(30:54):
uh, separate, but They will get dirtyand grimy, and because it's a natural
wood and because it's not finished, youneed the wood to breathe, you don't want
it to reflect the heat it's going toabsorb sweat and dirt and oils, so you
should scrub your benches daily in acommercial residential, some people will
do it once a month, some will do it Likein my home, one of the nice ways to do

(31:15):
it is you take a little brush hangingby the door and just dip it in the water
bucket and scrub where you were sitting.
And that's just one way to keep it cleanwithout having to go clean it again later.
But you are going to get sweat andoils, and if you don't clean it
regularly, you're going to start tosmell like sweat socks in a few months.

Trey (31:30):
Yeah, the worst time is being in a commercial sauna, and it's 195 degrees
and someone farts or just smells bad.
So you don't want to smell.
I'll give you, I'll

Mark (31:38):
give you a trick.
If that happens next time.
Throw steam right away.
Cause what happens the way thesteam goes through the room, it
goes over the rough comes backdown and it pushes it to the floor.
So there's a little, tip for you.

Trey (31:48):
Interesting.
Good to know.
Yeah, it is.
Is it pulls

Mark (31:51):
it down to the floor?
Somebody told me that I'mnot speaking from experience.

Trey (31:56):
I've never been, unless they're like throwing actual water
against the walls to make it hotter.
So that's actually a interesting point.
How hot.
Should your sauna get?
Where's the, the cutoff?
You said 196 earlier.
Is that just a 'cause like forour heaters, they get up to
1 0 4 for like pool heaters.
That's a regulation we have.

Mark (32:12):
Yeah.
Water temps are gonna be completelydifferent than a sauna room temp.
So that's one thing that the ULhas determined the maximum is 194
Fahrenheit, which is 90 degrees Celsius.
Technically, that's probablywarm enough for most people.
You get a few diehard Russians or Finnsor somebody who likes to take it over 200.
It's not uncommon in Europe to goin the saunas that are that hot.

(32:33):
And because it's so dry,it doesn't feel that warm.
But as far as what you said, theones you've been in are mostly dry.
I will say you probably made anenvironment that will satisfy
half the people, but half thepeople are dissatisfied and angry
that they can't throw water.
If it's a UL listed heater,you can throw water on it.
UL 875 category just has tobe grounded proper appliance.

Trey (32:54):
You said UL, so didn't catch what kind of heater?

Mark (32:57):
Oh, there's just a UL listing.
The sauna category is called UL 8 75.
you know, With the heatersthat go through it they're able
to handle water on the rocks.
Gotcha.
Yeah.

Mike (33:06):
one thing that, again, speaking from ignorance here, the very
beginning, we talked about infrared.
. And explain the difference.
For those that don'tunderstand what that is.

Mark (33:16):
So infrared is a very safe technology.
It's been around for decades as well.
It's what they use in incubators andhospitals and, lot of factories and
companies now heat with infrared,but it's not heating the air,
it's heating the body directly.
So infrared, it's just an invisible light.
You don't see.
And anything that has heatgives off infrared light waves.
So for instance, if you're in the middleof a night and you got night vision

(33:38):
goggles on you can see if a car drivesby, all you can see is the engine.
Maybe the lights giveoff low heat as well.
But if a person goes by, you canactually see their whole shape
because the body is giving offall the heat of a bird flies by.
It might look like a little dot.
There's very little heat that'svisible with the glasses.
But the point is anythingthat gives off heat.

Trey (33:56):
Sorry to cut you off.
It's like what the predator sees, youknow, when he looks through and he sees
the body moving and it's all the colors.

Mark (34:01):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
That's a perfect example, Trey.
So anyway, that was a long, short storyto basically that the infrared emitters
warm up to get you into what we callthe far infrared range is the bulk of
a lot of heat delivery in most infraredzone is out there, which is going to be.
from five microns to 15 microns, butthe bulk that they're trying to get in

(34:22):
that ideal range that the body absorbsis in the seven to nine micron range.
Then you got mid and near infrared,which can confuse people even more.
If they start to go do studies onlineand searches, they'll find a lot of
infrared companies telling me we have nearinfrared and following the NASA study.
And the truth is near infrareddoes get benefit and can even help
with tumors and everything else.

(34:43):
But.
It's not going to be delivered in thesauna to the medical degree that you
can with either a handheld medicaldevice that doctor would use or
those types of medical devices thesame way with a red light therapy.
So all of those going to be more.
only anecdotal, there's no true peerreviewed studies that are going to
prove near mid infrared are going togive you those benefits in a sauna use.

(35:07):
Near mid do give it.
We have a product that delivers inall three of the light spectrums of
infrared, and it delivers it well.
But it's the medical benefit reallymore comes from that deep sweat
you're getting rid of the toxins.
people who a lot of times like theinfrared probably because they don't
like the high temperature sauna.
I might argue that it might be becausethey were in a sauna that was either

(35:27):
poorly ventilated or they just didn'tlike a lot of steam and somebody
wanted to throw a lot of steam.
But the beauty of infrared isyou can get a deep sweat from 120
to 140 Fahrenheit if you want.
And then traditional sauna is justgoing to start at the temperatures
where infrared generally ends andgoes all the way up to 195 and of
course has the ability for steam.
Which imprint is not

Mike (35:47):
okay.
Thank you.

Trey (35:48):
One thing that's common with my buddies when we use the sauna is
we try to make it as hot as possible.
And like you were saying, maxtemperature, we try to manipulate
that and make it hotter bythrowing stuff on the temperature.
Some people will get ice water and we'llleave it out the door and stuff like that.
But let's just talk about, cause somepeople say you should stay in it for 15
minutes and that's all you need to do.

(36:09):
Me and my buddies will push ourlimits and go 40 minutes and
see what we can do after that.
talk about the risks because someonemight be listening to this and
they think, oh, this sounds great.
You have to be responsible withthis piece of technology as well.

Mark (36:20):
Yeah.
And honest truth is I don't know thatanyone knows the perfect length of time.
I'll just say this, UL hasrequired signage that says do not
exceed 30 minutes in the sauna.
And I think that's actuallyprobably pretty accurate.
Morning for most people, you'restrong, healthy heart and probably
go in a heck of a lot longer.
I've used some of since I was a baby andI don't usually go longer than 15 minutes

(36:42):
at an interval because like it hot andI usually will throw a lot of steam.
I'm uncomfortable after 10 or 15 minutes.
So then I go cool off, right now inMinnesota winter, I got snow out my
back door and I go sit outside andcool off and it just feels wonderful.
You just get, an endorphin rush.
Or if you have a cold plunge, youcan hop into and have that dramatic
change from the hot to the cold.

(37:02):
But the real truth that we alwaystell people is your body will tell
you do what feels comfortable to you.
if you don't know, I definitely wouldn'texceed 30 minutes for most people.
I generally go 10 to 15 minuteintervals and two or three innings.
That's just what I do.
Most people I know are very similar.
But that's how I describe it.
That makes sense.

Mike (37:21):
I design outdoor spaces, so what I look at mostly is an outdoor sauna,
and if I'm going to do an outdoorsauna, I'm going to try to set it in
a nice setting with a view, so I likethe idea of having glass on a door.
Okay, but is there disadvantageswith having a glass on the door

(37:42):
from a performance standpoint?

Mark (37:44):
No, I don't think so.
That's also another trend of the last 20years is more glass on the outdoor saunas.
I think it's a beautiful thing.
And the beauty of an outdoorsauna and adding glass, even
windows, not just the door.
I think, like you mentioned, Mike,a glass door might not be as.
Hi, our value is a wood door, but a fewthings I want to tell you on question
you asked me and why both are okay.

(38:05):
First of all, a glass door, I recommendit for an outdoor sauna, an all glass
door is more stable than a wood door.
A wood door is going to expand andcontract with your heat and your
humidity changes, and sometimes it'llstick, sometimes there'll be a gap.
So really, an all glassdoor is the most stable.
And as long as it closes and hasa nice seal your main goal is to
keep your heat trapped in the room,but you're not on 24 hours a day.

(38:26):
So you don't need super, triplethick glass insulating power just
to be able to run your sauna.
You just need to get that airspace hot.
And having a window and a door, itmight increase your heat up time.
Or like especially adding a big window orif you add too thin of an all glass door
or something like that, you might increaseyour heat up time five or ten minutes,
but you're not keeping it hot 24 7.

(38:47):
I really tell mostpeople it's a non issue.
Now, if you do too much glass, like twofull walls of glass or something like
that, now your heat loss is going to begreater and the heater is going to have
to work too hard to get the room cool.
And then you start getting high limittripping issues where the heater
thinks the room is warmer than it is.
And it's a safety featurebuilt into most of the heaters.

Mike (39:06):
Okay.
So glass door with a partialwindow would be something.

Mark (39:11):
with a glass window is fine.
A full glass, like completely allglass door with the wood jam is what
I even recommend just for stability.
And then, as far as windows, when youdo put additional windows in the sauna,
I think insulated glass is better butthose are fixed, you don't, need to
worry about opening and closing those.
And then one of the funnest trendswith a lot of it is putting these big,

(39:33):
nice big windows on one side of thesauna where you have the beautiful
view of a nice backyard or of thelake or the mountains or whatever.
The number of photos that I've seenof beautiful backyard saunas has grown
a hundredfold in the last 10 years.
It's fun to see.

Mike (39:47):
Yeah, we don't have lakes or mountains, so we have to
build beautiful backyards here.
Yes.
There you go.
You've got some beautifulsettings up north where you're at.
I imagine you mentionedyou have lake house.
That's probably pretty cool.
To be up there.

Mark (40:01):
I love to sit on the top bench showing steam and I can look out the
window and see the waves crashingon the shore there at Lake Superior.
It's one of my favoritespots in the world.

Mike (40:10):
So the next thing is size.
Okay.
If I'm going to get asauna, how big a sauna?
So I know Trey's mentioned, he's a realfan for laying down when he uses a sauna.
If you're going to buy Asana and you'rea beginning user, what would be some
recommendations to think about on size?

Mark (40:30):
first question is usually that ask or we have dealers trained to ask
is how many people intend to use it?
Most people will say, Oh, three to fouror five, six, maybe once in a while.
But the reality is it'susually one or two people.
And, so the way I always like totalk about it is you want to count.
Upper bench is only when it talksabout how many people are going to
use it because lower benches aren'tas usable, although, like I mentioned

(40:52):
earlier, there is this new heaternow, or even the lower bench people
can get just as good of a heat.
So you could utilize thosewith the right heater.
But I always talk about in terms ofone person for every two feet of bench.
And one of our most popular sellingsauna sizes is a five by seven.
So in a five by seven, you're goingto see three people on the back wall,
two people on the sidewall L bench.

(41:12):
So they got five peoplein that upper bench.
But then if you're using it as twopeople, most of the time now all
of a sudden you can have two peoplelounging person on the five foot
might have to have their legs bent up.
If they're lounging, the personon the seven could probably
lay fully flat fit just fine.
So that's why that'sa common popular size.
But we sell a lot of four by foursaunas and that's a two person

(41:32):
sauna and you better like theother person because you're rubbing
elbows in a four by four sauna.
But that one you're not going to lie down.
You're going to just be able to use it.
But the beauty is.
Even people who are living in a temporaryhousing, a condo or apartment or whatever
is those four by four saunas, you canjust plug them into a wall outlet, a
regular rock heater and still get hightemps and still get a steam and okay,

(41:54):
maybe you're sitting sideways on thetop bench, you're not going to lay down,
but you can still be comfortable and youthrow steam still get an enjoyable sauna.
So trying to get people to figureout what size they want is to figure
out how often are you gonna have morethan two or three people using it.
I'll tell you, 80% of the salesfall in that four by four to five
by seven, or six by six range.

(42:15):
Then you get six by eight is the nextone bigger for residential, where
you get, two people fully lined downor seating up to six, seven adults.
That's where you start to get there.
But five by seven, fourby six, five by six.
And four by four, those areyour best selling sizes.
And that's two person, three person,four person, five persons on them,
that's really covers the bulk ofmost people's tastes and interests.

Mike (42:37):
And are those, you call them cubes?

Mark (42:40):
There are cubes out there, but the ones that I was just
describing they're just what I callour freestanding modular solids.
They're just a regularSquare box or rectangle box.
The cube sauna is a kind of anoutdoor model that has a little
bit of curvatures on the corner.
It's just a term that's been usedto call a barrel looking sauna.
That's a little bit more rectangularis where that word cube comes from, but

Mike (43:00):
barrel saunas, do they come in those sizes or yeah,

Mark (43:04):
barrel saunas are usually your best selling sizes are the four person models.
And then after that, doyour six person models.

Mike (43:11):
And how big are they?

Mark (43:12):
Those are, you're going to look at diameters of roughly seven foot
and then depths of six to eight feet.

Mike (43:17):
Okay.
So the seven foot diameter goeswith the seven foot ceiling height.
So do those accommodate theupper benches well, or, yeah,

Mark (43:26):
well, That's one of the things that for years, one of the biggest
knocks on barrels is most of themare just a single level bench.
A lot of people have the cold feet,maybe leaning against a curvature wall.
Our company took a lotof those designs out.
And again, this isn't meant to bea commercial pitch, but we are the
first to start doing double tierbenches to get you in the better heat,
but also then redesigning even thesingle level bench versions with a

(43:49):
better ergonomic bench and backrest.
So you're not leaning against thecurvature and then, as we like to
say, use the wood fire heater orthis air perfect heater where you're
bringing that heat bubble down, thenit's not an issue with the cold floor.

Trey (44:01):
And the reason I like to lay in the sauna is to touch my skin as much
on the wood, get as much connection.
And you can do that in a small saunatoo, when you just put your feet up
on the bench and you're leaning upagainst the wall, it's the same effect.
Surface area.
Yeah, just surface.
Yeah, I

Mark (44:15):
think you're exactly right.
Yeah.
And that's one of the beautiesof a traditional Finnish sauna.
The reality is your walls aregetting hot, your ceiling's hot,
your benches get warm that you'reradiating infrared heat from all those
surfaces without an infrared emitter.
So you're getting the benefit ofinfrared radiant heat into your body,
even with the traditional Finnish sauna.
But of course you got the convectionof the steam and the air movement

(44:37):
as well with the Finnish sauna.

Trey (44:38):
I do want to go back to the last question about the
glass because I've talked to mydad about this multiple times.
I saw one, and it was on Instagram,and I didn't use it or anything like
that, but they did glass everywhere.
Glass ceiling, glass walls, andit was right on top of a pool.
So the corner you could swim up.
So I don't know if it was actuallya sauna or a steam room, but I'm

(44:59):
thinking theoretically, if you hadtempered glass, everywhere would it be
possible to actually use as a sauna?
Say, if you just upgrade the heater,because I'm sure you're going to
have a lot of heat loss comparedto wood, but if you have a bigger
heater, maybe, I don't know.

Mark (45:13):
If it's well insulated glass technically at work, if
it's single pane glass, I'm sureit's not going to work at all.
But I'll say this because weall live here in North America.
I doubt you're goingto get one to perform.
And that's because of the U. S.safety guidelines are too tight.
And that high limit willtrip almost right away.
I bet that sauna willprobably maybe get to 130.

(45:33):
If that and all of a sudden that highlimit will trip because the heater It
builds up that sensor for the high limitis built into the heater and that heater
has to work so darn hard to try to heatthat space That it eventually overheats
and trips that limit and now you can'tuse it until it cools down and you can
reset it so I would never recommendan all glass on in fact, we try to keep
people away from doing two full walls ofglass just because We live in a market

(45:57):
where the heaters just can't overcome it.
You could put a European heaterin those rooms and probably get
it to perform, but even those areprobably going to trip high limits.

Trey (46:05):
Good to know.
It was really cool aesthetic and youcan't really do a steam shower because
you would have to have the plumbing.

Mark (46:11):
Yeah, if you look at our website, you'll see some cool designs.
My favorite designs nowadays are someof these that have either a full glass
front or a full glass back, and youcan do those successfully without
heater, high limits, tripping, geta. Beautiful, enjoyable environment.
And they look stellarand they perform stellar.
So Sauna's have improved a lot in designso that you can get great performance and

(46:34):
still get a beautiful look, great viewof your pool, great view of the garden,
the lake, wherever you're putting it.
So that's definitely been a changein the last 15 years, especially.

Trey (46:45):
I'm wondering what the heaters, what's the difference between the
electric, the wood burning andinfrared, you've touched on this.
Already but just having this alltogether being able to compare
them all three at the same time.
I had the electric and it's theone you can't put water on or else
you're going to short circuit, right?

Mark (47:02):
If you have one that's electric that you short circuit, I'm guessing
you have an annual listed heater,but in general infrared electric.
Those are all electric.
Those you can't use water.
In fact, they will short outif you get water in there.
Most of those, they're not listedas a wet environment appliance.
Whereas the traditional finished stylesaunas those are electric wood fire.

(47:23):
And then there's even gas in the market.
Gas generally the venting requirementsand the amount of choices in
the market is pretty limited,but they are out there as well.
But the electric rock heaters.
They're all grounded appliances,usually going to have anywhere from
two to six elements in the heater.
Three is the most common forthe bulk of what in the market.
And those three elements are goingto heat a large mass of rocks.

(47:46):
Generally, I like to say the largerthe mass of rocks, the better for
a better heat and a better steam.
And the elements are just transferringthe heat to the rocks and you're wanting
your heat and your steam from the rocks.
That's what gives it's morecomfortable, less toaster, like
feel doesn't burn your nostrils.
And when you throw the water,it's a longer wave of steam.
It kind of envelops your bodyrather than hits you in a

(48:06):
sharp wave, like a frying pan.
There are heaters on the marketwhere you throw water on them.
It's not a very enjoyable experience.
They're usually a small rock tray, veryfew rocks, and it is like a frying pan,
and you think that wasn't so enjoyable.
But if you get a nice deep rock mass and alonger wave of steam, most people breathe
through it and it feels comfortable.
It helps induce the sweat and Everythingon the market, if it has a listing that

(48:30):
used to have arguments with the club Ibelong to is my very own company's heater.
And they told me you couldn't use water onthe sauna because there's electric heater.
And I said, my company makes itthrough a 48 hour water test.
We know it's safe.
Nope, not allowed every trip and breakers.
I'm like then you havesomething else wrong.
They might've hooked it up to a GFIor something, which might cause a
trip from a leakage or something.

(48:50):
Who knows where it was happening,but Yeah, and then wood fire
is pretty easy to figure out.
the wood fire system is, got a lotof other things, factors at play.
You've got to have proper clearances.
You generally need alot of space around it.
You can put up heat shields.
but you've got to use, by the time youput in the proper class piping, soap
piping, and add all your rocks and do it,It's just more limiting in more areas.

(49:13):
So we see a lot more wood fires inthe mountain states northern states
out in rural areas in urban areas.
You don't see a lot of wood fire.

Mike (49:22):
So what electrical requirements are we gonna have when we install Asana?

Mark (49:27):
Most of yours, I'll say the bulk of what people are putting in is
probably going to be a 30 amp breaker.
That's most of those sizes.
I listed earlier to you.
Almost all of them use a sixkilowatt or four and a half kilowatt.
And both of those use a 30 ampbreaker off a 240 volt circuit.
So it's just a size 10wire and 30 amp breaker.
If you're getting a little bitlarger than you're getting into

(49:48):
the eight kilowatt, that uses a 40amp breaker and a size eight wire.
And then if you get a little largerthan that, you're getting into that
50 amp breaker and a size six wire.

Mike (49:57):
So is aromatherapy a popular thing to do with saunas?

Mark (50:02):
It is.
Yeah, that's another thing thathas this, when you had used
the term earlier, wellness boomhas helped drive aromatherapy,
essential oils, things like that.
One thing that you got to be carefulthough, is you should never use a
Central oil directly on the rocks.
That's a fire hazard.
Oils are flammable.
So you got to mix them in with your waterin the water bucket and do it that way.
But just right now, if I look out the doorhere right now my stepdaughter has a bad

(50:26):
head cold and she got home from work askedif she could put the sauna go on, and
added some pure eucalyptus to the water.
And steamed it up and itreally helps clear the sinuses.
So that's another thing withthe aroma that you can do.
And then others are just fordepending on what you're after.
My favorite is a birch aroma.
It just reminds me of spring andthe birch leaves in the spring.

(50:47):
I love the birch one.
My wife, her favorite issomething called Lapland berry.
It's an Arctic berry has areally neat, almost like a
cranberries slash cloudberries.
So I don't know how to describeit, but that's her favorite.
And everyone has their own different.
There's something called tar, whichalmost smells a little bit like
burning pitcher tar from a pine tree.
And some people just love that aroma.

(51:09):
So I'm fine with it.
It's not my favorite, but there's alot of different choices out there.

Mike (51:13):
Is that something that you guys have available different aromatherapy
kits or something like that?

Mark (51:20):
You can get sample kits that have a bunch of them.
It's one of our most popularsellers with our dealers.
It's a 10 accessory and you gota, nice eight ounce bottle, or
actually I forget what it is inmilliliters, but roughly eight ounces.
And they sell a lot of those and it'seasy to use and it's just another
way to enhance the experience.

Trey (51:37):
That's so interesting.
Cause talked about aroma therapy before,and it was one of those things that
I was like, Oh, that's interesting.
Like, But now it clicked in my head.
So can you use aromatherapy in asauna and kind of get benefits that
you wouldn't get with the sauna?
Like you would stay in a steam roomwith the congestion and stuff like that.
Are you able to get both ofthose effects at the same time?

Mark (51:58):
Yeah I think so.
You can in a steam bath, too.
We even have injection pumps thatyou put into our steam bath series.
We're a huge steam bath distributorwith our steam generators and boilers,
even though converting any bathtub or shower into a steam bath is.
something feasible for most people theinjection pumps and aromatherapy is a
little less common in residential than itis commercial, where they actually have

(52:19):
these tanks where you mix it together andit feeds it right into the steam line.
So you can get aromatherapy in both.
The main thing is when youhave it in the steam, it is.
the best way to get the benefitin your body because you're
breathing it in directly that way.
And, I don't know.
The difference betweensome oils versus others.
no expert in that degree.
I just go by what smells good to me.

Trey (52:39):
I got you.
One comment you made earlier wasabout the burning nose sensation.
And that is like one of the triggerswhere I'm like, I feel fine, but
it is hard to breathe in here.
And I'm going to leave and it'sactually like the most defeating
thing that ever happened.
So you said that was due to not havingenough rocks when you're doing, that

Mark (52:57):
could be part of it.
Yeah.
Usually one of the two things that Isee when people are complaining about
that is one, if it was a small rock.
Capacity heater where they just put a trayon the top and then throw water that way.
Then it's a very piercing, Icall it a frying pan type heat.
It's just a quick flash andit jolts you when it goes by
and it can burn the nostrils.
The other would be if it'sjust running it too dry.

(53:18):
The club says you can't use water andthey run it up to 195 or hotter even,
but they don't want you to use water.
And they have to run it thathot just to get you to sweat
if you're not allowing water.
But when somebody comes in that.
Thinks or knows what a sauna normally useswater and they just put a big squirt on
that heater and that room's already at195 That's gonna burn your nostrils, too

(53:39):
Again, unless you have one of these airmovement heaters Which brings the steam
in a different pattern around the room andit spreads it out from low to high and a
much better You're gonna usually breathethrough that a lot easier But the fact is
most commercial clubs aren't using thistype of system yet but we're changing
that slowly more and more commercial clubsare getting our, either our solo unit in
there or adding those types of systems.

(54:00):
But because the rooms are so largeit's a little bit more restricting.

Trey (54:04):
Yeah.
If there's any gym owners that hearthis, there are people that decide
what gym they have, depending ifthey have a nice sauna or not.

Mark (54:11):
Absolutely.
Yeah, there's a lot of clubs that theythink they'll just put in whatever one
they can and put the cheapest one in justto check it off that we have a sauna.
But the fact is that when you putin one of those, I don't think
you'll gain any members by having itand you'll probably lose members by
having a poor model, either a poorlysized heater, poorly ventilated or.
Too small of a bench is too narrow.

(54:32):
You can't even lie down or maybe theyHave the benches too low and you're
not even sitting in the heat where youcan sweat There is just so many factors
that can go into making a bad commercialsauna In fact, that's probably what hurt
our industry more than anything was badcommercial saunas Some them airtight
thinking they'll make it efficient forthe owner Well, everyone went in there
all of a sudden got claustrophobic andheadaches because there's no oxygen in

(54:53):
there And it's something so simple toadd without having this major heat loss
Honestly, I think by not allowing steam,that's just one of the areas where,
they're trying to satisfy everyone.
People complain about it, but the peoplecomplaining about the people's team
are usually the ones in there with alltheir clothes on and doing sit ups and
pushups in the sauna and everythingelse, which they're not meant to do.
That's just a bad thing.

Trey (55:15):
And that's the same thing with our customers.
We want them to havethe best quality sauna.
You don't want them to say if theybuy a sauna for the first time and
then they get a Kermie product.

Mike (55:24):
the ultimate.

Mark (55:27):
I always tell people to have here's the thing I'll say about sauna
is first and foremost, the heater,that's the heart and soul of your sauna.
You have to have a good heater and whatmakes a good heater, a deep rock mass
something that has high quality elements.
So you're not replacing them everyyear or two, you know, want it
to last a good five to 10 years.
And then you want it to be builtof construction, stainless steel

(55:49):
construction, triple wall construction,where it's going to be safe surface
levels as well as long lasting.
So that's the heater.
You could have everythingelse poorly designed.
If you have a good heater, chancesare you're going to enjoy the sauna.
Second would be ventilation.
A simple invent under theheater and an exhaust vent as
close to opposite as possible.
And it only needs to betwo feet off the floor.

(56:10):
People who will listen to this, whowant to argue and say, nope, you have
to put it at the ceiling or you gotto put it, you know, they're going to
try to argue what it, the fact is youwant three to five air changes an hour.
So you have plenty of oxygen andputting them at those levels.
You're going to get those threeto five air changes an hour.
So those are the first two,the heater and ventilation.
More than you can build the room out ofplywood and probably enjoy that zone.
If you had good heater and goodventilation, but honestly, plywood

(56:33):
is going to off gas and all that.
So you don't want to do it out of plywood.
But then the next is to have a goodsoftwood that is going to absorb the
heat and then radiate it back to you.
And there's a lot of choices there.
Cedar and hemlock are the mostpopular domestic woods available.
Nordic white spruce and Baltic aspenand thermal aspen are the next most
popular European and Baltic woodsthat you're going to use from there.

(56:54):
You can go many number of ways acrossthe rainbow of woods that you can do.
Thermal magnolia.
You can do radiata pine.
You can go all kinds of differentdirections and they're all
going to make a good sauna,but you want to use a softwood.
that's going to be able to handleheat and humidity and those
that I mentioned will do that.
Then beyond that, the extras thatare going to make the good sound
is the lighting and the benches.

(57:15):
The wider, the bench, the better.
A lot of people skimp there.
They go a 16 inch or 18 inch wet bench.
We like to go 24 whenever possible.
Then it's light wide enough.
You can lie down your elbowsboth have a spot to rest on
the bench if you're lying down.
And if you like to sit regularforward, you can pull your feet up
onto that top bench too, if you like.
Which is a common thing in the sauna.

(57:35):
'cause again, the heatstratification in most saunas.
Your tendency is to want to pull yourfeet up to your upper bench height, just
because it feels better for most people.
So those are the kinds of things,benching, wider benching, and then
lighting just to be more subtle.
Don't make it bright.

Trey (57:50):
Yeah, that's a huge one.
I hate when it's bright.
Having a dark, it just adds thatlike layer of privacy, even though
you can see everyone around.
It's like that.

Mark (57:57):
Yeah.
It's more relaxing.
Yeah.
I don't know if that answered yourquestion, Mike, or whoever asked it.

Mike (58:02):
Yeah, it did.
So are there dealers all over the country?
Do I have to go onto awebsite and look at it?
How do you do that?

Mark (58:09):
Changed a lot also in the last 20 30 years.
The age of the internet brought a lotof sellers out there, caused a lot
of confusion, especially because inGoogle searches, infrared comes up
so much more common than traditionalsauna when you're doing searches.
So that's confused people more, especiallywhen IR is ripping on a traditional sauna.
We promote both, you canget it any way you like.

(58:30):
Generally, if you're goinginternet, you're going to be more
of a DIY person and You don't needthe local handholding service.
You don't care about after service sale orinfield warranties or anything like that.
Internet is going to be fine.
Local brick and mortar dealers is ourlong term goal in terms of making sure
we have a network throughout NorthAmerica, my former company, we built a

(58:50):
huge network my current company, we'rebuilding a huge network, but the more
knowledgeable people you have locally,people can go in and touch it and feel
like, I'd like to say, go kick the tires.
How many people will go buy acar without test driving it?
No one.
We won't want the same with sauna.
How many people are going to buya sauna without being able to go?
Try the door, feel the heater,feel the steam, test infrared, test

(59:10):
traditional, do it with steam, do it dry.
Showrooms is about the only wayyou can do that successfully.
And we're doing that successfullyand building that whole network.
So we want, our goal is to havea dealer within a one hour drive
of every person in the country.
we plan to get there.

Mike (59:27):
Is there anybody in Dallas Fort Worth?

Mark (59:29):
Yes, there is

Mike (59:30):
awesome

Trey (59:31):
You were talking about your showroom and I kind of zoned out for a second Are
y'all having the saunas actually be onand you're letting them test them out?
Or is it more like you're going tosee the actual materials and the vibe?

Mark (59:41):
both

Trey (59:42):
Okay.
That's awesome.

Mark (59:43):
but what we recommend in those showrooms to have always at least one
operating traditional and finished rocksauna, better to have two, one with
maybe one of the air movement systemheaters, and one of the maybe portable,
small four by four rock heaters, sincethey can test both, they both feel
great, but you can see the difference.
Then always, whenever you have infrared,have them all running, they run on 110.

(01:00:03):
So might as well have all thoserunning, but people try those.
And then the rest of them roomtemperature, because most of the people
come in the showroom are wearing alltheir full clothing and they don't
want to sit too long in the ones thatare heated, but they might sit for a
while, go in our double lounger one forinstance, they'll go sit in there with
their clothes on and kick back and feelhow the taking weight off their legs and
knees how good that feels and they canimagine in their mind, Oh, that what this

(01:00:27):
will feel like at the right temperature.
showrooms are going to have maybeabout half of their zone is heated.

Trey (01:00:33):
And you talked about the boom earlier.
I'm wondering cause COVID was hugeboom for us and the outdoor living
area as well in America, but it feelslike Europe and everyone else that.
Isn't it America has been using Saunasfor a long time and the technology.
So did y'all see a big boom after COVID?
Okay.
Wow.

Mark (01:00:50):
Globally.
it wasn't just a North American phenomena.

Trey (01:00:53):
Okay.

Mark (01:00:53):
Every sauna company in the world did well during COVID and it spawned
a whole bunch of new ones as well.
It just created a whole new industryof selling to manufacturers and
sellers because everyone did wellduring COVID, even the poorly
managed ones they were doing well.
That was a good thing for the industry.
And the best part was I'm not going togive names of these retailers, but some

(01:01:14):
of the retailers I respect the most havebeen in the industry for years, selling
some of the top name brand hot tubs and insome of the best markets, I remember one
of the owners telling me, he said, Mark.
He said that this is when Saunus hadalready boomed since 2018, he said.
Saunas are going to boom.
He goes, once this COVID is over, hesaid, there's going to be no stopping.
He goes, it might not be as highof a trajectory that's straight

(01:01:36):
up, but it's going to keep growing.
And he is exactly right.
all COVID did was throw gas on the firefor sauna, which was already doing great.
Double digit growth all over the globe.
North America was the fastestgrowing market and still is but
it's doing well globally.

Trey (01:01:50):
I think because he said that there was some like,
companies that weren't the best.
And they did as good as well.
The same thing in the pool industry.
And I think sometimes people think ofthat as negatively because no one wants
the customer have a bad experience.
But what it does is makes bad experiencesand bad practices be highlighted in the
industry, which we could be thankful for.

Mark (01:02:08):
I agree.
think you said it.
Well, The way I've looked atit is, sometimes all these.
Renegades or whatever that tried toget into it, they raised awareness.
Some people might've got it andrealize they like it, but they
didn't like the service and thenthey move on to a better one, some
of my dealers, they use the phrase, Ithink it's one of the grill companies
uses this by your last grill first.
But do like to tell people by your lastsauna first, if they're buying one of

(01:02:30):
ours, but the fact is the better qualitycompanies are going to be the ones that
survived the better quality retailersare going to be the ones that survive
and the consumers are going to recognize

Mike (01:02:40):
you've alluded several times that were trying to be very non
company pitch in this whole thing.
But quite honestly, don'tmind, you talking about who
you work for what you do.
So we didn't say that at the verybeginning, we probably should
have but be in your bio part.
So explain to us a littlebit about your company.

Mark (01:03:00):
Yeah.
The company I work for wehave multiple divisions.
The corporate name is Bathing Brandsand we have divisions that cater to the
professional industry, meaning plumbers,wholesalers, that industry heavy on
the steam side of things but alsothe builder side with that side of it.
Then we have a division thatworks what we call wholesale
accounts that a lot of e tailers.
I work with that side of the divisionand indoor outdoor products taking

(01:03:23):
care of to set, serve, and satisfythe eTail industry that has had a hard
time finding good quality products.
There's a lot of China stuff outthere, but there wasn't a lot
with good quality products there.
Our companies provided it, butthe division that I lead and
head up is the one dedicated tobrick and mortar retailers, and
that's called World Sauna Group.
And the reason we call it WorldSauna Group is we're bringing

(01:03:43):
the products of the world to you.
We have the biggest and bestmanufacturers in the world.
As part of our lineup, we havea good, better, best entry
level, mid level and high end.
We have the best luxury offeringof any company in the world.
North America, nobody even comes closeon that luxury end of our market.
And then we have the samething on the outdoor.
We have entry level, wehave good, better, best.

(01:04:04):
You have barrels and cubes andthe more entry level, you have
some of the better, like maybe thelog and some of the solid wall.
And then you have these.
Pre built, pre wired, insulated crane liftinto place or glass saunas, you name it.
When you mentioned glass earlier, Trey,I completely forgot to talk about, we
have a glass, all glass saunas, triplewall glass, but it has wood ceiling,
wood benches and wood floor, and thatactually has performed very well in there.

(01:04:28):
But anyway, this.
Division that we have.
We want people that we say we wantsomething for every taste and budget.
And I feel we've achieved that.
And that's in infrared and traditionalas well as the hybrid rooms of
traditional name for this one.
A lot of people don't realizeyou can buy one that has both.
There's a lot of husband andwives out there where they don't
buy one at all because they can'tquit arguing over whether they're
getting infrared or traditional.

(01:04:49):
Buy a hybrid, get both.

Mike (01:04:51):
Wow, that's cool.
Didn't know that existed.
Yeah, I ran into y'all atthe international pool show.
Y'all had a huge display out there.
And there was a gentlemanfrom I believe Estonia.

Mark (01:05:03):
Yeah, I think, I bet you talked to Hinton from uh,

Mike (01:05:07):
it was Hinton.
Yes.
Hinton's awesome.
He was a world of knowledge.
helped me walking around and showingme all kinds of different stuff.

Mark (01:05:14):
yeah, there are Luxury sauna supplier, especially on the
indoor side just beautiful rooms.
You probably saw the double loungerthere and some of the others with really
unique profiles of woods using the BalticAspen and thermal Aspen and so forth.
Yeah.
Awesome room.

Trey (01:05:28):
curious what the longevity of a product like having a sauna
that's outside it is or inside too.
cause with the gym, we now I'vebeen at the same gym since 2010
or something like that, 2011.
And finally we're havingwarping on the wood.
And our gym doesn't reallytake care of the sauna.
Like when you said they clean,they're supposed to mop it every
single day and stuff like that.
I was like, Oh, I got something to sayto the manager right now, but yeah, I

Mark (01:05:50):
would say most commercial saunas in the U S probably
should be replaced in 10 years.
And the main reason is because Theyweren't taking good care of it.
If they take good care of it, acommercial sauna can often last 20 years,
but maybe replace the benches in 10.
Your benches are what takethe most beating in a sauna.
That's where everyone's sitting.
That's where all the oils are collecting.

(01:06:10):
It's just the point of wherethings can start to fail.
Residential sauna.
I don't know any yet that have had tobe replaced unless it's something maybe
made in China or something like that.
But most residential saunasshould last a lifetime.
They're probably going to be replacingelements five or 10 years down the
road if they use their sauna regularly.
But I know plenty of people thatare using saunas that are 20, 30

(01:06:32):
years old that I sold them whenI first started in this industry.
It's still on the same heater,still in the same room, and
they use them regularly.
So a well taken care ofsauna can last a lifetime.
And the beauty of a sauna is.
A lot of people think of all the highmaintenance of a hot tub or pool.
Water products are highmaintenance saunas are not.
You use some water, but very little.
And so as long as you're mopping it forthe sweat and scrubbing your benches

(01:06:54):
and backrests regularly, just don't seethat it will ever need to be replaced.

Mike (01:06:58):
I view that as an appliance that you're going to, use for 10
years and toss it and get a new one.

Mark (01:07:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would say a hot tub, definitelyshorter lifespan than a sauna.
I didn't mention the outdoor saunasthey'll last just as long too,
as long as you're, treating orpainting them, it's just, you can't
let the weather break it down.
But should last just as long as well.
In fact, because you're running asong on the inside, you could say
that inside probably is going to lastlonger than like a garden shed because

(01:07:23):
that inside of the song is going to benice and dry from all the use it has.

Trey (01:07:26):
yeah, I've seen videos of saunas.
all over the world, like inRussia and Japan and everywhere.
And some of 'em last generations.
'cause there's some like ancientones and it's really intriguing.

Mark (01:07:36):
Yeah.
There's one here in my hometown.
It's the oldest standing SaunaNorth America is built in 1868.
Wow.
uh, the Finnish historicalsettlement, the north of Cokato.
The village where I'm from and, it is theoldest standing sign in North America.
Okay, we know Sonos came into the DelawareRiver Valley, in the 1600s, but the
oldest one standing now is right nearme, just a few miles down the road,

(01:07:58):
and that it was well taken care of.
It was helped restored few yearsago by some local fundraising,
but it's a fun story to tell.
If I'm at my factory down the roadhere in Hutchinson, I can like to tell
visitors that well, today you're goingto see North America's oldest sauna
and North America's newest sauna.
The newest one will be that oneleaving on the dock on the truck.
The oldest is the Sabu Saunanorth of Cocado, if you want

(01:08:18):
to go take a peek at that.
That's awesome.

Mike (01:08:21):
Heritage and got it all covered there.
Oh, yeah.

Trey (01:08:24):
is there any like, misconceptions around sauna, I don't know, maybe
sauna culture, or the sauna ingeneral that you want to I don't
know if there's any misconceptionsin it or misinformation out there.
There used to be more,

Mark (01:08:33):
but yeah.
There are still some so maybe what add tothat question or that comment Is years ago
problem was saunas were often associatedwith red light district massage parlors,
and it was just a cover For something elsemore nefarious going on than an actual
sauna early in my career I remember a fewof the places visiting and go look in the
yellow pages like sauna what and then noI don't think that's what I think it is.

(01:08:58):
But anyway, those misconceptionsare mostly gone, but just if people
associated with that, it's not at all.
It's one of the most serene,clean environments out there.
And it's not to associateit with sex world.
I'll call it is not at all a goodconnection and not necessary.
biggest misconception with sauna isthat people either think it has to be
really hot or that they can't breathe.
That it needs to be neither, the otherthing is that infrared is the same

(01:09:22):
or better than traditional finisana.
They're not.
They're different.
Both provide great health value.
I always tell people, use theone you're going to use the most.
Buy the one you're going to use the most,or buy a combination hybrid of the two.
Because there really isn't Asmuch as my heritage, people will
say, okay, I'm biased towardsthe traditional Finnish sauna.
Yeah, all four of my grandparentsare born in Finland, but that

(01:09:43):
isn't why I love Finnish sauna.
I love it to use it and I've used Finfredand every time I use Infred, I love
it, but I'll go on the traditional allday because I love that steam aspect.
It's my favorite part of the ritual andI love the flexibility it gives me.
But the fact is, I tell people youcan pronounce it any way you want.
You don't have to pronounce it sauna.
they say well, how do youproperly pronounce it?

(01:10:03):
We always say sow like the pig andthen nah, but they can say sauna.
They can say any way they want, aslong as they own one and enjoy one.
I don't, it's really not an issue to me.
People can get hung up on pronunciationsof authentic words, you know, burrito,
or however you'd say it properly.
I mean, every, there's every language,there's different ways to pronounce
it in the country you're sitting.

(01:10:23):
So it's not an issue to me.

Mike (01:10:25):
So one of the things we have on the podcast is a
section that we call true crime.
this is something that happenedthat was a disservice to the
homeowner bad experience.
So do you know of any true crimes thatyou could share with the audience?

Mark (01:10:40):
Yeah almost everything that comes to mind is related to ventilation and I
guess that the one that I can think of.
It was a particular install.
I think it was somewhere in Orange County.
I remember the dealer anymore, butI remember they had converted a walk
in closet and this person just was.
Beside themselves on howthe sauna was performing.
And that sauna my club, I don't feelthis lightheaded than I do in mind

(01:11:04):
and your heater isn't working right.
What happened is the builder that builtthe song, they bought the equipment
through, I don't know if it's throughour dealer or through one of the
distributors, but they thought theywere doing the homeowner of this great.
service making that sauna airtight.
There wasn't a leak anywhere in there.
That sauna would have been efficient.
That's keeping something warm,but it wasn't efficient at
giving an enjoyable sauna.

(01:11:24):
So what happened is theiroxygen levels were depleted.
And every time you're in there andusing it, you use a lot of oxygen
because you're breathing a lot.
It's a cardiovascular activity, but thesauna, all it needed was a simple vent.
Our fix on that particular case waswe took the threshold out of the door.
It had a threshold inthat particular case.
We took a threshold out of the doorto get a gap under the door, and then

(01:11:45):
we had to carve An exhaust vent asclose to opposite the door as possible.
I think it was in the back leftcorner of the room about two feet
off and it went into a hallway.
And that changed thewhole experience for them.
if you would go put your hand outsidethat exhaust vent to normal use,
you could barely feel any heat.
You can feel a little bit, tiny bitof heat escape at that two feet,
but it was about 80, 85 degreescoming out the exhaust vent.

(01:12:10):
So it's not like it was heating theirhallway or something, but they We're
able to enjoy their sound after that.
So that's the only oneI can think of there.
Oh, I did think of one true crimethat relates to one of my commercial
experiences years ago, earlyin my career at a hotel sauna.
I was at a hotel that had a great sauna.
Of course, there was a sign up outside thedoor that says no water electric heater.

(01:12:32):
And it wasn't a heater from my companyis from a competitor company, but I
knew you could throw water on there.
when I went to sit down on that benchI branded my butt from a hot nail.
Years ago, people didn't take asgood care to build proper benches
and they had surface nailedthe bench sports from above.
And of course, over time that whenthey don't take care of a sauna and
they overuse the nails, start to worktheir way loose and that popped up.

(01:12:53):
And it was a blazing hot nail on thattop bench that if they had done it, the
style, my company builds where you fastenit from the bottom with the galvanizer
stainless steel fasteners, you don'tever have that issue, but that was
probably a true crime to me as surface.
Now you got branded,

Trey (01:13:08):
huh?

Mark (01:13:09):
And then they get branded my skin a little bit there.

Mike (01:13:11):
Ouch.
Wow.
Any other things that we shouldthink about in this uh, adventure?

Mark (01:13:16):
No, I don't think so.
best thing that I could tell people isif they've had a poor experience, find
somebody who can walk them througha better experience that's not in it
for macho pride or anything like that.
Just that's there tohelp them experience it.
So finding well educated retailers is oneway of finding people are passionate about
it from the wellness aspect is another.

(01:13:37):
But I really believe anyone ifthey've given the proper effort.
Time and ability to take it ata temperature that feels good
to them and whether they like itwet or dry we know they're going
to reap the medical benefits.
And that's the part that most people don'teven realize, like for hundreds of years,
people took it because it felt good.
Now people are like, wow, thisis actually good for me too.

(01:13:57):
So many benefits.

Mike (01:13:58):
I'm going to check that report out.

Mark (01:14:00):
yeah, you'll like that.

Trey (01:14:01):
It's excellent.

Mike (01:14:02):
Yeah I'm a technical nerd, so

Trey (01:14:04):
it's wild how many benefits and it's 15 minutes.
Ideally yeah.
It's not even long.
It doesn't take

Mark (01:14:09):
much out of your day.
And now with phone app control foryour sauna, there are a lot of the
times the knock on the sauna was, ah,it takes too long for me to get hot.
And by that time I'm tootired and I got to go to bed.
Heck you can turn it on when youdrive home from work, or if you're
out for the evening for dinner withyour wife, just turn it on from.
The restaurant and it'shot when you get home.
Phone app control, my former company,we were the first to get a UL listed

(01:14:31):
phone app control, and it changedmy world when I could do that.
I could be at the hockey arena andpractice with my boys and turn the sound
on, we get home as hot and hop in andwhat a difference to not have to wait 45
minutes, because most saunas are going totake 30 to 60 minutes to get hot and the
temperature I liked it, it was about 45.
That changed my worldto phone app control.

Trey (01:14:50):
Oh, yeah.
Have you ever used one of those?
I don't know what the proper termis for it, but like the Eskimo hats
because I've seen a couple of them.
Yeah.

Mark (01:14:57):
Yeah.
Some people swear by him.
They say it helps them feel cooler.
They sweat better.
They look a little goofy, butI've tried them and I don't
notice a difference for me.
Frankly, it's probably mental.
It's more mental than anything.
I don't feel like I suffocate or anything.
I just, I don't like it, buta lot of people love them.

Trey (01:15:14):
Something I'm considering trying.

Mark (01:15:15):
yeah, they're cool.
I could probably even get you one.
I could send you one from the fact.
Oh, that'd

Trey (01:15:19):
be awesome.
I would definitely, do asmuch media as I can for you.

Mark (01:15:23):
All right.
That'd be simple.
Especially if you love it, right?

Trey (01:15:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Cause I like to go as long as possible.
I'm not trying to be machoor anything like that.
It's just like a internalbattle with myself, I guess.
Well, it is.

Mark (01:15:34):
You're probably giving yourself a better endorphin rush when you
do that, when you set your body toextremes and then especially if you can
finish with the cold plunge I couldsee why you would want to do that.
I personally, my last time of theday, when I take my hottest steam
and the longest steam, and thenI finished with something that'll
cool off either a cold shower.
If I'm at the, have the benefit of beingat my cabin, I can jump in the lake.

(01:15:55):
and then that hour after you feellike Superman your endorphins are so
high, your body's almost tingling.
You feel so good.

Trey (01:16:02):
And also like when you don't use the cold plunge, it feels like
I sweat more throughout the day.
So if it's, For some people, that mightbe a good thing or a bad thing, depending
on what time of the day you use it.
But for me, I think it's great.
Cause then I'm constantly, detoxingmy body and stuff like that.
either way.
Exactly.
For sure.

Mark (01:16:18):
Yep.
Closing your pores.
That's what's happening.
So that's nice.
Then you don't continue tosweat for hours afterward.

Trey (01:16:24):
Yeah.

Mike (01:16:24):
You're

Mark (01:16:25):
fine.
That's all I ask guys.
I don't know.

Trey (01:16:26):
So we do ask at the end of the podcast, I have a couple of fun
questions asked just to get to knowthe person a little bit better.
I'm just gonna run through thequestions real quick so my three
are, what's your favorite book, yourfavorite movie, and your favorite meal?
And then his is going to be, what'syour favorite place to go for vacation?
If you go anywhere.

Mike (01:16:44):
inspiration.

Trey (01:16:45):
Inspiration, yeah.

Mark (01:16:46):
Yeah.
Okay.
Favorite book.

Trey (01:16:48):
Yes, sir.

Mark (01:16:49):
For me there's no contest.
The Bible, my favorite book.
Read it daily.
It's important to me.

Trey (01:16:55):
Oh yeah.

Mark (01:16:55):
What was the next one?

Trey (01:16:56):
Favorite movie.

Mark (01:16:57):
Favorite movie.
Probably Shawshank Redemption,it's old now, but I never get
tired of watching that one again.

Trey (01:17:04):
had that answer several times.

Mark (01:17:05):
Yeah.
I don't know.
It's probably because I didn't think aboutthat one enough in advance, but it really
it probably my go to if I have to say one.

Mike (01:17:12):
First reaction is usually the best reaction.

Trey (01:17:15):
classic.

Mike (01:17:15):
And

Trey (01:17:15):
then a favorite meal.
Favorite meal, food, itdoesn't have to be I would say,

Mark (01:17:20):
I'm going to say two cause it depends on my mood.
My favorite is a wood fire pizza,just plain old sausage pepperoni
wood fire pizza, just about anywhere.
But if given the choice, if I'm goingto make something at home, it's going
to be a pork drop dinner, right?
We have a seasoning here inour area made by the Minnesota
pork producers that makes.
The best pork chop seasoning.
And my family, if they askfor me to cook something, dad,

(01:17:43):
can you make your pork chops?
It's my own favorite as well.
So that's probably my favorite meal.

Mike (01:17:47):
It's one of the top ones at our house as well.
So I cook on a green egg a lot and,

Mark (01:17:52):
oh yeah, those are awesome.

Mike (01:17:53):
Ribeyes, pork chops, and ribs.
Those are the three favorites.

Mark (01:17:57):
Starting to salivate here.
I haven't had dinner yet,so I'm going to go ahead

Trey (01:18:00):
and eat there.
I'm curious.
Have you ever put a pineappleon top of a pork chop?

Mark (01:18:06):
I have not.
No, I've done pineapple with hams andother things, but not on a pork chop.
I'm sure it would taste great.
It is.
But I have not

Trey (01:18:13):
well, Some people hate pineapple and stuff.
So when I bring that up withpizza, that's usually what I bring.
Yeah, I'll get mad.

Mark (01:18:18):
Yeah, I'll eat it on pizza, but I think it's better without

Mike (01:18:22):
And then if you could go somewhere on vacation or a place
for inspiration, where did you go?

Mark (01:18:27):
If I'm honest, my favorite place is my cabin on Lake Superior.
It's not very fancy.
It's rustic.
But the whole drive there,it's a seven hour drive.
But I'm thinking about that sauna.
I'm thinking about sitting around thefire in the great room and the sheer
solitude and the sound of the waves.
And it's just the place where Iconnect with God, with nature and my.

(01:18:48):
Favorite things in the world.

Mike (01:18:49):
I have to go to Colorado to do that.

Trey (01:18:51):
It's more than seven hours.
Yeah.
And then we're going to hikeup a mountain, but amazing.
It's

Mark (01:18:56):
I love the mountains.
I'm one of those travelers whereyou bring me to the flatlands,
to the mountains, to the ocean.
I love it all but my favoriteplace is Lake Superior.

Mike (01:19:05):
We greatly appreciate you coming on, Mark.
Thank So if someone wanted toreach out and find your, how
would they find your group?

Mark (01:19:13):
I'm on LinkedIn, just mark rising and mark dot rise.
And, but my work contextis just mark dot rise.
And then at.
World Sauna group.com.
Pretty simple.
Just first and lastname@worldsaunagroup.com.

Mike (01:19:27):
Okay.
They can find the website.
Is that World sauna?

Mark (01:19:30):
Yep.
World

Mike (01:19:30):
sauna

Mark (01:19:31):
group.com.
The website.

Trey (01:19:32):
Yeah.
All the listeners need togo check out their website.
They got some crazy stuff on there.
It's awesome.

Mike (01:19:36):
Yeah.
Thanks again and we will look forwardto talking to you again in the future.

Trey (01:19:41):
All right.

Mark (01:19:41):
a great night, you guys.
You Too.
You too.
See you.

Outro (01:19:44):
This show is all about helping you become a better buyer, a better pool
owner, and hopefully you're gonna findsome insights into how to enjoy your pool
even more so how to help your friends,your family, anybody looking to buy a
pool in the future or that want to remodeltheir backyard, add an outdoor fireplace,
fire pit, add an outdoor kitchen area, addsome shade cells, or whatever else it is.

(01:20:07):
We wanna be that resource for you, andthat's the end goal here, and we promise.
That there's gonna bea ton of information.
We'll try to go through it, youknow, as relatively quickly, but
also slow so people can understand.
But the intent of the show, thereason Mike and I are doing this
is because we just got a lot inour heads and we wanna share it.
So we hope to see youhere every single week.
Thanks for listening.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 079 World Sauna Group with Mark Raisanen

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Ep 079 World Sauna Group with Mark Raisanen

Stuff You Should Know