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May 6, 2025 78 mins

In this episode of the Luxury Outdoor Living Podcast, hosts Mike and Trey Farley from Farley Pool Designs discuss the evolution of backyard pools and outdoor living spaces with return guest Eric Herman. They delve into the history and changing trends of the pool industry, from the classic kidney pool designs of the 1970s to modern vanishing edge and lazy river pools. The conversation covers iconic pool designs like the first vanishing edge pool by Thomas Church, the luxurious grotto pool at the Playboy Mansion, and the influence of materials and aesthetics on contemporary pool design. Also highlighted are the growing trends in outdoor kitchens, wellness retreats, and compact pool solutions for smaller spaces. The episode emphasizes the importance of education and expertise in the industry, offering advice for homeowners on selecting experienced professionals for their projects. Listeners can expect valuable insights and tips for designing their dream outdoor spaces.

 

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00:00 Welcome to Luxury Outdoor Living Podcast 01:17 Introducing Eric Herman 04:54 Iconic Pools and Their Influence 21:53 Barbecue Bits: Outdoor Kitchen Essentials 26:33 The Rise of Vanishing Edge Pools 34:27 Health Benefits of Pools and Spas 39:01 Emerging Trends in Outdoor Living 40:49 The Rise of Biophilic Design in Home Amenities 42:39 Impact of 9/11 and COVID-19 on Outdoor Living Spaces 44:11 The Evolution of Outdoor Kitchens 48:17 The Popularity of Lazy Rivers and Custom Pools 57:52 Trends in Small Space Pool Design 01:03:26 The Importance of Education in the Pool Industry 01:11:56 Personal Insights and Recommendations  
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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to Luxury Outdoor LivingPodcast with Mike and Trey
Farley of Farley Pool Designs.
For over 40 years, we've helpedhomeowners turn their backyards
into personal retreats, spaces ofjoy, relaxation and unforgettable
memories, and whether it's a cozy as.
Scape or a resort style oasis.
We design it all.

(00:24):
We know how overwhelming a projectcan feel, and nothing feels worse than
a homeowner having a bad experience.
And that's why after decades ofdesigning and teaching in this
industry, we're here to share ourknowledge, helping you navigate.
The process with confidence.
Every week we break down designtrends and insider tips that
turn your vision into reality.

(00:45):
And since this is about creating somethingamazing together, drop a comment.
If you have any questions, ideas, orjust want to be part of the conversation,
if you find this helpful, a like helpsget this out to more people like you.
And if you want to keep upwith what's next, go ahead
and hit that subscribe button.
We'd love to have you along for the ride.
Let's build your paradise together.

(01:17):
this is Mike Farley of Farley PoolDesigns and we're hosting the Luxury
Outdoor Living Podcast, and today we havea return guest the amazing Eric Herman.
And so welcome.
Hello Mike.
How are you sir?
It's good to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
we've got an episode set up whereyou're gonna help co-host with me.

(01:40):
But today it's just the two of us.
'cause Trey's often St.Martin enjoying himself in
the creek.
He's in St. Mark's.
Is he in St.
Mark's?
Is that what it is?
Okay.
What's he doing there?
He last I saw, he was watching jets flyover the beach and land at the airport.
It looked like he was havinga good time in the ocean,
Good for him.

(02:00):
Yeah.
We've got stuff to talk about.
Yes, sir. we've experienced quite a bitin our careers in the industry, but we
were even talking about, how the poolindustry and the outdoor living industry
has changed very radically over a reallyshort period of time as time goes.
So how far back should we go?

(02:21):
That's a great question.
You know, when I think about thehistory of like backyards, when
I was a kid at 10 years old ourneighbors put in a swimming pool.
I was so excited about it and I didn'thave anything to do that summer.
And so I sat on the fence all summerand watched this swimming pool go.

(02:42):
And this would've been about1970 and it was the classic
kidney pool with a salted deck.
And I remember the bull nose copingand everybody around was excited.
And it was such a thrill to finallyget to go next door and go swimming.
And little did I know that all theseyears later, that formative experience

(03:06):
would still be influencing me co you know,covering the industry and backyard living.
And I remember how after they hadthe pool, it was so much noisier
on weekends in the backyard.
'cause these people hadparties all the time.
And so that formed my feeling abouthow this was such a fun place, and

(03:27):
growing up in Southern CaliforniaI was always in swimming pools, it
was such a big part of my childhood,but I wanna go back even further.
Okay?
This is a funny story.
I was writing for a musicmagazine and I was interviewing
this almost famous rock band.
And they wanted to do theinterview in a special place.

(03:49):
And I'm like, oh gosh, what's this?
And we went up into Hollywood Hills atBenedict Canyon, and we went through
the hole in a chain link fence Oh boy.
And walked up this hillto an abandoned property.
It was supposedly the home of Errol Flynn.
Wow.
Who lived in Hollywood and they hadan abandoned swimming pool area.

(04:10):
And apparently this is where this rockband would go and practice sometimes or
party and or do whatever rock bands do.
And they love going up to this place.
'cause it had this sweeping viewof Hollywood in Los Angeles.
And that's where we conductedthis interview that for
the article I was writing.

(04:30):
And I remember being up there andthen pontificating running on and
on as I am now about how to thinkthat Douglas Fairbanks Jr. And Mary
Pickford and Charlie Chaplin and allthese icons of the past would be.
Partying by the pool up at wherewe were sitting, and that held

(04:52):
this great meaning for them.
And I look at that kind of thingthat seems like the trailhead for
the evolution of the backyard is thisidea of, especially far as backyards
include swimming pools, this ideaof luxury and of it being an ideal
setting where the good life transpires.

(05:15):
And so I think you can take the historyof the pools from that point forward.
So it, what do you
think, Mike?
that would be a very exclusive client.
It would, that, that would be able toafford something along those lines.
And when do you think thatpool was probably built?
It would've had to have been in thevery early 20th century at some point.

(05:36):
Yeah he was in his headachein the twenties and thirties.
And so it was duringthen it, it was before.
I remember the pool it waspoured in place, obviously it
didn't look like a gun eye pool.
Yeah.
And it had you could see the Ferrisplumbing and the open pit sand filter.

(05:57):
So this was early technologyfor pools for sure.
So I worked for the Jeremy as, and theystarted in the twenties, but they weren't
building residential swimming pools.
They were building pools that werefor water storage and people swam
in them up in the Sacramento area.
but that was their claim is theystarted, their company building

(06:19):
these concrete water retention areas.
yeah, I would say in the thirties thatyou probably had some wealthy people that
were building pools in their backyards.
And that created a certainenvironment for celebrities to go to.
But it was a very exclusive situation.
So I would say that was the caseprobably until after World War ii.

(06:43):
When the housing boom and everythingstarted, that's when I would say
you would've probably started seeingmore in a, typical, when I say
residential back, I would say it wasstill a thing of luxury, but start
being more popular in a backyard.
Certainly in the post WorldWar II era where you have the

(07:03):
expansion of the American suburb.
In places like Southern Californiaand of course across the nation.
And I think most people would point, mostpeople, historians, people that would be
paying attention would point to that eraas the cradle of the modern pool industry.

(07:24):
Because that's where you see themiddle class swimming pool and
that's really the beginning of themodern era for, backyard water.
I think now is that timeperiod, the post World War ii?
So it was Hearst Castlebuilt after World War I.
Yeah.
Hearst Castle was built in the twenties.

(07:46):
Okay.
So they were taking all the thingsthat they got out of, ' they
took whole sections of things outof homes that were bombed out.
things like that that, here's thisartwork that came from this place, and
here's, I've toured the grounds in thehouse and it was really interesting
to me that a lot of the stuff that wassold that went into that home was to

(08:08):
help countries recover from the war.
Which I thought was real interesting.
Yeah.
and as a result it was so eclectic.
The design traditions that areevident throughout the property
of First Castle, you know, itgoes from one thing to another.
Of course the outdoor pools very,what would say neoclassical Romanesque

(08:30):
Greco-Roman, very much yeah.
Vibe.
I had the pleasure once when it was beingrenovated about probably 15 years ago.
I went and toured the property with agentleman who's still around and kicking
these days by the name of Dr. Bill Rally.
he's an engineer that had a lot ofexperience restoring historic pool

(08:51):
properties, commercial and residential.
And he was working with the, oh, Iforget who, what organization it was.
It was overseeing the historicrenovation of a lot of the grounds
and the pools at Hearst Castle.
And so we went up there and spentthe day walking around the site.
There was no water in it.
They had chipped out a lot of the plaster.

(09:12):
It was torn up, surprisingly.
And we got to go underneaththe pool Oh, wow.
Into these pretty vast catacombs thatnobody ever goes under, but we were there.
With the site engineer, and again, wesaw these old plumbing and you could
see the outside of this pool structure.

(09:32):
And the wood grain from the originalwood forms were evident and it had
these old huge abandoned filters.
And so it was kinda like crawling behindthe curtain of, history on that one.
You know, What you could say about HearstCastle is that it really influenced an
interest in Classicism because of allthe stuff that they brought in from

(09:58):
around the world to create that place.
And certainly the pool with its thepillars and its marvel finishing and
just luxury appointments becomes.
An inspiration for people thatreally want, you know, that live
in classically designed homes.
what do you think about classicism now?
Are you seeing that now or doyou think that's been abandoned?

(10:21):
I. I don't think it's, you know,really formal looking design.
What are you seeing in your work?
It still exists.
when I was starting in the,early nineties, that was
something that was still desired.
We had our standard template poolsthat, we had, and there was a Roman one
and a Greek one, and just, the roundedends or versus the clipped corners the

(10:45):
very traditional look of everything.
And that was something thatwas very much of interest.
And there are still a lot of homestoday that are built in that manner.
Very large estates they like, that feel.
Everybody's not wanting amodern looking situation.
I don't think it's gone away.
I don't think it'll ever go away.

(11:06):
I think that the pendulum swingsas we go through a time period
and certain things fade out.
Three or four years ago sat there andI realized I didn't do a single pool
that had a radius on it the whole year.
Really there wasn't a single curved poolthat I did that was, just all curves.
Which was shocking to me.

(11:27):
But that was the pendulum was swinging.
But even since then, the, it'sswinging back the other way.
And I've done, quite a few very organicpools in the last several years, just as
well as I've done a few things that arevery traditional in appearance as well.
But it's not, certainlynot the trend right now.
yes.
You know,
I think when we go back to the thinkingabout the swimming pool industry in the

(11:54):
second half of the 20th century and whatthat became in, the middle class backyard
I think we have to go back and look at thefamous Donald Ranch pool by Thomas Church.
I was just interviewing a, fellowbuilder in the industry who renovated
a yard that had been designed by ThomasChurch and he went back to the Donald

(12:18):
Pool visited it in person and to.
Learn more about that design.
And when you think about it that youmentioned you didn't build a radius,
but back in the sixties and seventies,every pool practically had a radius,
and it was all because of Thomas Churchand, the way he set up the backyard

(12:39):
and the whole surroundings of the poolwith the concrete decks and the way
steps were treated and the use of shadestructures we both read the book, right?
But I mean that he gave buildersthe language, the visual language
of modern swimming pools and, ithad been replicated countless times,
thousands of times to different degrees.

(13:01):
it's fun to think how thatpool was so influential.
I mean, It was on thecover of Sunset Magazine.
it was California living as a lotof people would envision, this is
what it was like to live on theocean, 'cause it was right there.
And it was a beautiful area and abeautiful piece of property and a
beautiful setting and a beautiful
pool.

(13:22):
Great view, obviously.
Oh, Marin County, right?
Yes, sir. right around thecorner from Sunset Magazine's
headquarters is where it's located.
well That made it easyfor them to cover it.
Yes.
Well, That's why Thomas Church got alot of coverage because that's where
he worked and that's where they were.
they were very much influential in hiscareer as he was going in the early days.

(13:47):
that pool.
What was interesting about it too isto me, is it was, the essence of the
beginning of the kidney being, thefreeform pool but it had a really
cool piece of art in the middle of it.
Yeah.
It had that sculpture, or it still does,
sculpture right in the middle of it.
So that's something that, a lot ofpeople don't realize that was there.

(14:07):
the other thing is thatpool was quite big.
It fit very well the scale ofthe property but it was a very
large vessel as swimming pools go.
it's interesting, if you look atThomas Church though if you're in
the outdoor living industry, you needto go get Thomas's church's book.
It's called Gardens Are For People.

(14:28):
And in that book, he covers every style.
He has some very traditional designs,but he also had totally organic designs
with boulders and natural settingsand stuff like that, which, back in
that time was virtually unheard of.
He had one pool that I think is one ofthe classics of all classics that I've

(14:51):
still never done in my career, which isthe one pinner, it's called a circle.
He did a perfect circle that wasone of the pools in the book.
But he had a way of working with.
what I followed in my career is youwork with the architecture of the
home, which they're all different.
cause he was working with hugemansions to ranch properties

(15:12):
to, town homes in San Francisco.
So he was working small spaces,medium sized, huge pieces of property.
And so he was, creating thissetting, which we tried to do today.
He was creating that, backin the thirties and forties.
He creates something thatworked with their architecture.
He worked with their site specifically,whatever there was with it.

(15:35):
And then he worked with what they wantedand he was very innovative and creative.
And I would say the things that he cameup with in there are totally applicable
to the things that we do today.
that's my Thomas Church plug.
in terms of outdoor design,you almost can't overstate
how important his work was.

(15:57):
You know, And it's a very small groupof designers people like Roberto Burley
Marx, or LeGreta and Baron, thesewere architects, designers that were
concerned with the residential exterior.
Now, oftentimes on these big estate,but, landscape architecture seems
like, it really, it's about, a lot ofit's about designing parks and macro

(16:20):
areas in commercial or public settings.
And to really focus like you havein your career on the backyard
and the residential setting.
It's almost still kind ofrarefied, don't you think?
Even now,
it's hard for landscape architectsbecause the training that you get my
whole career now, I know that's changed'cause like when Reed got his degree,

(16:45):
it was different than when I got mine.
But we did one residentialproject in four and a half years.
That was it.
We were trained to do a, largepieces of property and develop cities
and parks and all those things.
We did one residence.
Now Reed had a whole semester wherethey worked in the residential aspect.
But when you get a landscape architect,the challenge, a lot of times people

(17:07):
go to them for a design is they'renot used to dealing with that scale.
hard to make yourself think in a smallsetting how you're gonna do things
when you're used to dealing with acres.
And upon acres.
And so that's why when you look atarchitects as well, most architects
don't design residential homes.

(17:29):
or what they have is theyspecialize in a niche.
that's what I've done is I'vespecialized in a niche and just small
scale as looking at all projects.
that's the fun of what I enjoy is,I enjoy drawing in eighth inch scale
instead of one inch equals 50 feet.
Which, a lot of times landscape architectsare working with stuff that's that big.

(17:51):
yes, there were certain landscapearchitects that influenced the style
and characteristics, and some of themwere, Marx was well known for his
tropical design, and Ergen was knownfor, his more modern design that was
done lot in Mexico to begin with.
and church was known for, hewas, California the California

(18:13):
Outdoor Living Lifestyle.
they all lend themselves toa particular Flairing style.
And they're adaptable alltoday to different places.
yeah, Phoenix California the, anothericonic pool that, in my fortunate role
at Water Shapes Magazine, I got to visitwas, the Playboy Mansion Pool in Home,

(18:35):
bee Hills, beverly Hills, Bel Air area.
we did a big article.
We, because the people that actuallydesigned that for Hugh Hefner
were writers for the magazine.
Suzanne and Ron.
Dear Smith, may they rest in peace.
They passed on a few years ago,but they had a huge influence.
And I think that the Playboy Pool,which is also a big freeform pool

(18:56):
becomes sort of almost like theprototype for the lagoon pool.
Yeah.
The grotto
the grotto, the famous grotto.
Yeah.
I got to go in the famous grotto andit's a big room made outta rocks.
But nobody had seen that.
And I remember, back in the earlyseventies, they did a big spread
about the Playboy pool and Playboy,and my dad was so excited about it.

(19:19):
He showed it to everybody and said,this would be what we would want
in our home if we could afford it.
I think that's what Hefner was tryingto do, was set the bar for luxury and
be able to, create this place for,let's say your lifestyle to unfold.
it seemed like for a long timethe lagoon pool with Grottos and

(19:43):
rock work was a real direction.
And that's another thing that kindof has gone in and outta style.
You don't see that as much anymore, atleast not in the stuff we're covering.
I haven't seen a new realtotal rock pool in a long time.
And I think another thing about thatperiod of the seventies getting into

(20:03):
the late sixties and seventies, yousee the advent of artificial rock which
people had seen at zoos and amusementparks, and that becomes something
people want to put into their backyard.
And for a long time when I started backin the I started it with Pool and Spa
News as an associate editor in 1989.

(20:25):
And every year for, except wewould cover the big design awards.
And for a long time therock pools were that.
And then you saw that fade awayinto more of an architectural thing.
isn't it your pool mike,that you have in your home?
Pretty much heavily naturalisticwith rocks and plantings?
there's only one pictureever been shown of my pool.

(20:48):
And actually you put it in amagazine article and I sent it to
you ' cause you were covering spasand you wanted something that was
different and Yeah, like my spas,there's not any deck around it.
It's all boulders and plants and, that'sthe fun of it is they're all different.
So my inspiration comes frombackpacking in Colorado and 84

(21:08):
oak trees on a. Half acre lot andtrying to work around them all.
Radius is where the easiest thingto do to try to keep as many of
those trees alive as possible.
But I got a Silver International Awardfor a boulder pool this last year really?
Yeah.
So they're coming back.
Maybe we should do anarticle on that pool.
Is it okay to say that inthe middle of the podcast?

(21:30):
Yeah, sure.
I'm always hitting people up for content.
Yeah.
So Eric
and I haven't seen a new one ofthose in a long time, quite honestly.
It was a fun pool.
We had ship rocks in from Colorado'cause he wanted the right color.
So they, come from upnear Aspen, all granite.
And we'll talk about it.
We are gonna take a break here for asecond and get into outdoor living.

(21:53):
So with outdoor living, we like togo to barbecue bits here we're gonna
share some information of everythingthat you may want to consider in
your outdoor living space as far asfeatures, especially for the kitchen.
Hope you enjoy this.
I am an egghead.
Uh, I, I love my egg, but a lot oftimes people are like the next step.

(22:16):
After becoming, uh, an egghead andcooking on lump charcoal is, I'd like
something that makes life easier for me.
Uh, and so they look at pellet grills.
Sure.
Okay.
And so walk me through this Memphis unit.
It, walk me through pelletversus cooking on lump charcoal.
Sure.
So pellet grills is gonna give youthat fire, wood fire flavor, um, that

(22:41):
you're not gonna get off of a gas grill.
Also, you get space and ease of use.
So I can set my timing on thisparticular grill, but one thing about
pellet grills that, that they havenot figured out that this company has
Memphis, is it just doesn't look good.
And this company is sexywhen you build it in.
You've got two models.

(23:01):
You've got a 30 inch pro andthen a 40 inch wide, uh, elite.
And it just looks like itwas meant to be built in.
But also, most of your pellet grillswill be made of metal or iron.
In a built-in scenario, it's justnot gonna last long where the 3 0
4 stainless is meant to last a lotlonger and defy any of the elements.

(23:24):
The pellets are loaded in the back.
Um, this particular grill,you can mix flavors.
So if I'm doing a couple of, uh, chickenbreasts or even a pork shoulder, if I
want to mix oak and cherry or pecan andcherry, I can separate the flavors and
infuse 'em together and cook with bow.
So it's a really cool option.

(23:45):
Also, I can see the whole cooking processon my phone with this particular grill.
Now, if I want to, if I wanna do acouple of cowboy, uh, you know, bone
in ribeyes, I can get this grill to700 degrees in about 12 to 15 minutes.
Uh, get a nice sear, that's what it is.
It's a Memphis Wood-Fire Grill.
So when we do that.

(24:06):
This is the diffuser plate, and we'llsear over this with your locking medium.
Rare to well done.
You've got plenty of, uh,surface area, warming rack area.
You can buy other racks as our customershave done together to increase, uh,
the holding power from, uh, anywherefrom a Turkey leg to a, a chicken

(24:26):
half to uh, thighs, to to, to meats.
And then if I'm doing a really largebrisket, I have an access entry here.
The meat probe that will go intothe meat and it will tell me
everything going on on my phone.
I can see all of that.
Pretty cool, pretty cool item.
Don't have to keep your eye on it as much.
You do not, you do not.

(24:47):
Versus charcoal.
So charcoal is not as ease of use,but then the value added piece
of charcoal is its flavor, right?
So if you're wanting to go out there andhave a mixed drink, watch the Cowboys
on TV and uh, relax a little bit.
Maybe the charcoal grill from a big, biggreen egg as we saw earlier, might be

(25:09):
something would be value added for you.
So,
so we talked about earlier, uh, smokeand a vent hood and that type situation.
Right?
So this is gonna put outa similar amount of smoke.
It,
it is.
If we run an interior wall,you definitely want vent a hood
over this particular grill.
Okay.
That's correct.
Great, great question.
Awesome.
Well thank you for the detail.
I bet.
So I hope you enjoyed the barbecuebits that we just featured today, and

(25:32):
we'll have more coming up next week.
If there's something in particular thatyou're interested for, let us know and
we'll get back into the episode now.
it's interesting how certain poolswill affect, what we see and like, I
did my very first article for watershapes when we were doing book notes.

(25:54):
We covered Ner.
And he is known for Silver Top, which wasthe very first vanishing edge pool in the
United States that anybody knows about.
So it was done in the fifties.
it was a really cool pool, didn'thave much of a basin to it.
It basically overflowed intoa channel and that ran into a

(26:16):
surge tank, if I remember right.
On how it was set up.
There's no doubt that Vanishingedge design advanced after
that pool, but he was the firstto, to work in that aesthetic.
Yes.
And I think when you look into theeighties and especially into the nineties.
The Vanishing Edge becomes a majorevolution point for backyard pools.

(26:41):
Oh, a hundred percent.
You know, it offered a reallydynamic aesthetic and all of a sudden,
you're talking about what's vogue andwhat people are bringing forward to
share in the publications and whatthey're submitting in design awards.
The Vanishing Edge takes overfor a long time, I think.
Well, I don't think it's stopped.

(27:01):
It really hasn't.
It's still a big deal.
Yeah.
well, And you've transformedinto perimeter overflow
pools not just the famous
Latner Edge, talking about John Latner.
Yeah.
It's something that Ithink is, I was on, I.
Job site Friday, we're working onone that looks over Lake It's a
spectacular, it's a vanishing edge.

(27:23):
Infinity edge with the other halfof it is a perimeter overflow.
got turf right up to theL level with the water.
So it's gonna be a pretty cool look.
But, that's something that Ithink is still, people were
doing neater and cooler things.
And one of the things itdid also is it helped people
transform pieces of property.

(27:44):
They didn't think they could builda pool on to pieces of property
that were great to build a pool on.
'cause it was a hillside.
People were always looking fora flat place to build the pool.
With a vanishing edge, the ideal situationis you want a hill, 'cause you want
the water to vanish off into this greathorizon where you've got this spectacular

(28:04):
view, you know, of the countrysideor a lake or something like that.
That, that becomes a really coolpiece of property that's now developed
that, you can put a swimming pool on.
So we do more and more differentthings, but you know, we've done
a lot of what I call double poolswhere we have a top pool and a bottom
pool, and they're both functional.

(28:25):
But it's a vanishing edge going overinto the one, there, there's all kinds
of ways that people have been created.
So the catch basin then becomesanother pool area that you go down to?
Yeah,
so I've seen treatments for,that becomes like the kitty
pool area, it's shallow and,
We actually do usually, most ofthe time the shallow pools up top.
Because that's wherepeople want to hang out.

(28:45):
So that's where the adultswill hang and all that stuff.
And then we put the deeper poolin the bottom with a diving board
and a slide going down into that.
And so now, because we dropped intoa lower base, the slide's not as
obnoxious 'cause it's sticking up.
Slides are ugly.
But a lot of people want'em 'cause they're fun.

(29:06):
and then that's the place the kids go, soit pushes them a little bit farther away
from the house and, so the noise and loudactivities a little bit more removed.
So we do a lot of those andevery different style that you
can think of everything from.
And actually the Boulder poolwas that, it was a double pool.
And the lower pool is like I'm describing.
But, we've done 'em on very modern onesto contemporary, all different styles.

(29:30):
Again, the infinitylends itself to anything.
You can have all kinds of different stylepools with that application of solution.
there vanishing edges on almostflat lots now, you know, they, yeah.
And, and, And you see these kind of designfeatures in things like vinyl liner pools.
Now there are vanishing edge vinylliner pools and fiberglass pools.

(29:53):
And so this evolution, you know, it'slike a whole products that comes along
with it comes along for the ride.
And there's I think of a trickledown effect where things start
in the new ideas really germinatein the super high end pools.
' cause they're daring andpeople are willing to spend
money on trying something new.

(30:14):
And then when they become established,they become more commonplace.
I wouldn't say vanishing edges are ho humnow, but there certainly are a lot more
common and a lot more accessible to middleclass customers than they used to be.
Yeah.
Well,
I mean, Probably nevercheap though, I know, right?
You're building two pools.
I tell clients that all the time.

(30:35):
everything that you gotta have inthe top pool in a well-built managing
edge pool, you better have a filter.
You better have, lights, youbetter have some kind of cleaning
system, so everything that'sup tops gotta be down bottom.
And it better have a separate set ofequipment if you're gonna do it well.
There's a lot of peoplethat don't do it well.
But that creates a lot of problemsand that's why there's certain people

(30:56):
that make a great living doing expertwitnessing in lawsuits on banishing edge
bulls.
Yeah.
I just did an article that ran anAqua magazine and in water shapes
'cause we share content sometimes.
And it was about pandemic era pools.
Oh yeah.
And how many problems have happenedwith construction defects since then?

(31:19):
Because the demand was so intensethat a lot of inexperienced people
came into people that really weren'tqualified to do the work they were doing.
We're doing it too.
Trying to do it too fast.
Yes.
And with inexperienced subcontractors.
So all these kind of problems havecome up across a variety of things.

(31:40):
Some just very cosmetic, somemore severe and structural.
And, for, I would say for any homeownersthat might be watching this the advice
I would give people, having seen thescenarios, these lawsuits that you talked
about, so many people involved with it,that the real caveat is to be sure that

(32:02):
the designer and builder you're workingwith have experience in some form of
training or education to properly executethese pools like a banishing edge.
They might be relatively commonplace now.
But that's a pretty complicated structure.
'cause you're built, like you just said,you're building two pools and they're
interrelated and there are problems withthem when they're not done correctly.

(32:25):
Lots.
And so working with somebody thatknows what they're doing is and
can demonstrate to you that theyknow what they're doing with their
background, I think is really important.
I wanna, you don't really doexpert witnessing work, do you?
Or am I wrong about that?
No that's not my thing.
So I know a lot of peoplethat do and it's needed.

(32:46):
I understand that.
But, I'm good in my lane,just coming up with new stuff.
I'm busy with a podcast, so I don'thave time to do expert witnessing.
You're spreading the good word.
I wanna come back to theeducation in a minute.
But one thing also that's radicallychanged, and a lot of people don't realize
how quickly this changed as well, ishow long have they been building hot

(33:09):
tubs spas in conjunction with pools?
And the two words I just saidare two different things.
A hot tub is a separate structure thatis self-contained in then you have
the spa that's attached to the pool.
But if you go back into theseventies, there were very few spas
in conjunction with swimming pools.

(33:29):
Well, Again, it's funny also inMarin County where the Donald
Pool was, that's where you see thefirst, wine, barrel style, hot tubs.
you know, And that's associated with kindof the hippie lifestyle and I dare say the
sexual revolution and, all of that stuff.
it's almost a cliche, the peoplepartying in a wooden hot tub.

(33:54):
that I think very quickly becomesthe hydrotherapy spot when they,
people like the jacuzzi brothers.
Yeah.
That was in the sixties.
So adding
hydrotherapy to the hot water vessels.
But that was just in the sixties thathappened, that they came up with that.
It was switched over.
So that's evolved quite radically.

(34:14):
'cause today I would say that most poolsget a spa, I would say more than half to.
But not necessarily everyone, butI would say it's a very commonplace
that's part of the overall structure.
the health advantages, of spas is, huge.
And they, following that subject not onlythe health advantages of swimming, but

(34:35):
of hydrotherapy and they go hand in hand.
maybe spas and hot tubs went from a placeof seeming very hedonistic and indulgent.
Nowadays, the aging baby boomerslike you and me, our old bodies
really benefit from great
greatly.
Yeah.
It's amazing.
What water, exercise and just.

(34:57):
Soaking in a spa with the jets and bubblesdo for you physically and psychologically.
Actually, what's interesting is you don'teven have to have the jets and the bubbles
going if you just get in hot water.
The benefits from you from a healthstandpoint is very substantial
from a cardio, heart situation.
there was a little book, and I know meand you talked about whether to review

(35:19):
it as a book on book notes years agothat was put out by the industry, I
believe that was on hot water therapy.
And it was really beneficialinformation, which is I would say
that was the beginning of the.
Health and wellness aspectsof the swimming pool.
Although, as you mentioned, swimming initself is probably one of the best things

(35:42):
in the world that a person could do.
You look at anybody that swam fortheir whole life I've had, I had a
client, I just gotta go down this one.
So I'm building a pool for her, and I'mlike, ma'am, I just don't understand.
You've lived in your home for 40 years.
Why are you just now building a pool?
And she said my husband died last year.

(36:04):
And I was like, oh, I'm sorry about that.
And she said, I'm not, hewouldn't let me have a pool.
And so now that he's gone, I'mgonna build myself a swimming pool.
And she said, I've been swimming inthe public pool for all these years.
And I go almost every day.
And I'm looking at this lady and I'mthinking she might be 65 years old.

(36:25):
She was 85 and she swam every single day.
She was in great physical shape.
And when we were building her pool,she said, I need rails on both sides.
And I said, okay, what do youneed a rail on both sides for?
Because you don't need arail to get in this pool.
And she said no, no, no.
I wanna handrail like a rail,that you know they're gonna
use at the gym to hold on to.

(36:48):
While they're doing aworkout type situation.
So she said like
a ballet bar rail.
That's
exactly right.
Just like that.
She said, I need one.
'cause this is part of my workoutroutine is I need that bar there so I
can do my water aerobics and everything.
And I said what do you need two for?
And she says well, I invite guests tocome over and do it with me as well.

(37:08):
She said they can't keep up with me, sothey need their own bar on the other side
of the pool so they don't get in my way.
I just thought it was a hoot.
But this lady, she swam every day.
She did water aerobics every day.
She was over 85 years old and she lookedlike she was in her early sixties at most.
But you look at anybody thatswam their life and they're

(37:31):
in awesome physical shape.
I don't think you cansay enough about that.
The last time I was on, we mentioned afriend of ours that had passed away Vance
Gillette, and he was a big proponent ofthe backyard experience, but he thought
that the industry was kind of misguidedto focus so much on the health benefits.

(37:51):
And he and I had anongoing debate about that.
And you know, it is true he was right,that there's a large number of people
that own pools that don't ever go in them.
there's no question about that
a hundred percent,
but when you look at what swimming cando for you, you know how it benefits
you physically and psychologically.

(38:15):
And you think about people thatare in their fifties, sixties,
seventies now, larger and largerpercentage of the population.
That demographic benefitsmore than anyone.
Oh, for sure.
So
right now but it also benefitskids because it sets them up for
a lifetime of swimming possibly.

(38:35):
but yes the blue mind and if youcan introduce people to water
at an early age, it opens up allkinds of things in their life that
they can do associated with water.
And it's a great and wonderful thing.
But, the other aspect of it is the health.
We were talking about spas andhow they've changed radically over
the past, just 40 years in time.

(38:57):
well, I guess closer to50, maybe a little more.
the.
Other thing that's coming into play isa lot of new things that are coming into
the outdoor living atmosphere in thebackyard setting that we're having a lot
of requests for is we're having requestsfor cold plunges and saunas which are
another two really extremely things thatare healthy that you can incorporate.

(39:21):
And I've had, several clients thatwe're developing wellness retreats
for them in their outside area.
Now that's something I knowthat's done inside and has
been done for a little while.
We're talking about creating, a wellnesszone where, we've got our spa, we've got
our cold plunge, we've got our hot tub,we've got our outside shower we've got

(39:41):
all these things here, right together.
We've got a fire pitthat we can hang out by.
And enjoy from a visual standpoint.
And oh, oh yeah, there'sa pool over here too.
But you know that's somethingthat, that's becoming more and
more of a requested situation.
And I don't see that thosenumbers are gonna go down.
I think they're gonna continue to go up.
It seems to be a trend thatis ever growing in popularity.

(40:06):
And I think it has to do withthe demographics and also the
information that's out there.
You know, When people look at,say, Finland, which is like
obsessed with saunas, right?
Oh, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
and then you look at stuff life,there's some evidence that saunas
can, slow down dementia and theonset of things like Alzheimer's,

(40:28):
60% reduction in Alzheimer's anddementia, if you use as sauna four times
a week for 15 minutes is what the fi
you already know.
You've already beenthinking about this, Mike.
Well,
We have an episode that'sactually on saunas.
That's great information.
And yeah.
You know, I think saunas and hottubs say, I'll go into this at home.

(40:49):
The desire to have these amenitiesat home, what you just described,
where you've got, you've got it all
right.
You don't have to go tothe gym or some facility.
You can walk into your backyardand enjoy this setting.
And biophilic design is anotherthing that's been a huge thing.
We did an article on that with you, meand Trey I think last year and how that

(41:12):
I. They've been trying to bring thebiophiliac design inside so you could
feel like there's more nature incorporatedwith the architecture of the home.
But what we have is we haveeverything for biophiliac design.
All we have to do is create a space foryou to sit in and enjoy the space so we
can sit in your sauna, you can sit inyour cold plunge, you can sit in your

(41:35):
hot tub, and you have all these naturalelements around you that, create a more
tranquil, peaceful, enjoyable setting,that, you know it's good for you.
That was a great article and and I reallyappreciate that you brought that forward
and people responded to it and it bringstogether what a lot of people have known

(41:56):
and done all along, some of the places.
We've talked about the Donald Pool,the Playboy pool, the incorporation
of plantings and natural elements ofstone and that whole biophilic concept.
It's really in right now,you see a lot more about it.
I think it speaks to the blue mind aspect.

(42:17):
Yeah.
That when you're in the presence ofnature and water I mean, it's been proven.
It has a direct impact on youremotional state and the way your
brain is operating in that moment.
And people don't even need to know thatso much as they feel it and understand it.
this tracks back to something wewere talking about earlier today.

(42:39):
About how the pool industry hasbenefited from some sort of broad
crises that make people wanna stay home.
Specifically I'm talking about theperiod after nine 11, like you mentioned,
where, the idea to be safe at homewas a big deal for obvious reasons.
And then again, in the pandemic peoplewanted to have that at home and they

(43:03):
want to experience obviously that feelingthat you get in a natural environment
within their home so they don't have togo to the outside world, it's scary I
guess for, to a lot of people's thinking.
Well, With nine 11, the idea of,architecture changed the settings
that we worked in changed.

(43:23):
And the fact that I would say in a, andTrey was shocked, we were talking about
this on an episode not too long ago, isI said before nine 11, I could count on
one hand how many outdoor kitchens I did.
And I did some very nice projectsI, between Napa and Sacramento
before we moved back to Texas.
I was in Northern California where, peopleloved to be outside and eat and cook and

(43:47):
dine and all those things, but it wasmostly a Weber grill, that type of thing.
You were just cooking on your grill andthat didn't build a full fledged kitchen.
Now Scott Cohen was down in San Diegoat the same time he was doing kitchens.
And he was, serving wineand having, nice time.
'cause he had a great climate down there.
But we didn't do that so muchup in Northern California.

(44:08):
But, after nine 11 to today.
It's unheard of to do a projectwithout an outdoor kitchen.
Everybody comes in, it's like, yeah,I want the pool, I want a spa, I want
a water feature, I want a kitchen.
And that's if they don't already have akitchen that was built with the house.
Because most houses that arebuilt today, they all have it big

(44:30):
outdoor porches, and they haveoutdoor kitchens built in already.
That's something that we're nothaving to provide all the time now
because it's already been done.
But back then there was no, you golook at houses that were built before
nine 11 and most, for the most part.
There's hardly any back porch.
That's why we started building cabanasbecause people wanted outdoor space and we

(44:53):
had to build some space to either attachit to the home and build an outdoor porch,
or we had a separate structure in theyard, but there weren't any to speak of.
that totally changed that aspect ofthe outdoor living aspect is now we're
gonna cook outside and we're gonna dineoutside, and we're gonna have, but even
those outdoor kitchens, for the mostpart were, we got a grill, we've got

(45:17):
maybe a fridge we might have a sink.
But for the most part itwasn't very elaborate.
Now Covid took the outdoorkitchen and put it on steroids.
Okay?
Now we want everything.
We want the pizza oven outside.
Pizza ovens became a thing, right?
Yeah.
So before Covid, I could count onone hand how many pizza ovens I did.

(45:39):
It wasn't that many.
And now that's a very common requestis we want a pizza oven, it, and
there's all kinds of them for verysimple units that sit on the top of the
counter to real elaborate built-ins.
But now we need a griddle outside too.
So we want to, cook our pancakes andhave breakfast outside and do all that.
And now we, we've got agriddle and we want a smoker.

(46:01):
So we can have that as well.
And we want, a fridge and, we'll probablywant a wine cooler or an ice maker.
So now everything that'sinside, we want outside.
And in fact more, 'cause I don't havea pizza oven inside my house but I
want a pizza oven outside becauseit's a great way to entertain.
One of the things when we weretalking again with Scott Cohen
on an episode is he said that'sthe greatest party you can have.

(46:23):
Everybody makes their own pizza andyou can have all the ingredients there
and everybody puts it together andyou put, put it in and cook it, know,
and then everybody's sitting aroundeating pizza and having a good time.
this is something I've talked toScott about quite a bit over the
years he did a book about oh yeah.
Outdoor kitchen designand we've covered it.

(46:43):
And one of the interesting pointshe's brought up and this directly
impacts this discussion about theevolution of the Backyard, is that
to design an outdoor kitchen itcan be helpful to understand what.
The preferred cuisine is forthe clients and their friends,
what do they want to do?
Make your own pizza or, do the GreenEgg types of recipes for doing meats.

(47:09):
Do they want to have a smoker
or Santa Maria grill
set up?
You You actually, you said the thing aboutthe outdoor kitchen is it brings it down
to a very personal level with the clients.
not just that they want to cook outside,but what do they want to cook outside?
How many people is it gonnabe just intimate gatherings?
They're gonna do it for big groups.

(47:30):
and I think that's a really interestingthing and it, it speaks to people that
are in the process of developing youroutdoor spaces to really understand
what your own preferences are.
I think that principle appliesto everything we're talking about
here, is it your desire to advanceyour health with Asana or a cold

(47:52):
tub or swimming laps or a hot tub?
Is it your desire to have big parties?
One thing we've heard about a lot is withaging baby boomers, having grandkids.
I've talked to some homeowners thatcreate a pool area strictly with
the idea of attracting grandkidsto give them something to do,

(48:12):
so
to make grandma and grandpa's placeand attract destination for them.
So back to one of the very firstprojects that I did a lazy river on
that was the driver for the whole thing.
this guy says I want a lazy river.
And I'm like.
You're a single 55-year-old man.
Why in the world do you wanta lazy river in your backyard?

(48:33):
He said you built this clientover, here's pool, right?
And I said, yes, I did build that.
And he says, theirdaughter married my son.
And so my grandchildren go over totheir house and swim every weekend
and I want 'em to come to my house.
And so I figure if I build a lazyriver, they'll come hang out at
my house instead of their house.
And so I was like, so that'swhat you want a lazy river for.

(48:55):
He is like, I need a pool bigenough to play water basketball in.
And then I need as longa lazy river as possible.
That project was amazing.
It's in a very small backyard,and you guys featured it.
I know it did well in the magazine.
It ended up on HGTV because again, itwas such a small space and we crammed,

(49:16):
basically Maui into that backyard space.
that's really one of the ultimateversions of a backyard pool, right?
The lazy river.
Oh, it's crazy what you're doing becauseand that's also an example of something
people have seen in different settings.
Go
to the resort that they want
and come home.
Yeah.
And you come home and think well, why?
I mean, why not?

(49:38):
If you can afford it, those areobviously big, elaborate complex systems.
Is that still, is that trendstill happening for you?
Because there was a time there afterwe published that and word spread
that you were the guy for lasers.
Are you still seeing that today?
'cause it's been a few years.
It, is it very much in demand today?

(49:58):
So it's still somethingthat, that people request.
I've got a project that will photographprobably this spring, which was a,
is a massive river that I designed.
I did not build it, but I did design it.
And it's a very modern looking one.
Ryan Hughes, I know has donesome fabulous looking modern
looking lazy rivers as well.

(50:20):
And again, that's a style a lotof times people think boulders
when they think of lazy rivers.
An organic style setting, but you can,
does not have to be, does not have
to be whatsoever.
I did one several years agoand it's perfectly symmetrical.
Which was a really fun project aswell 'cause it fit the architecture.
we came up with all this stuff andthey had seen the one video and

(50:43):
they were like, I think our kidswould have a lot of fun in that.
And so is there a way that you can add alazy river to this very symmetrical pool?
And I was like, yeah, we could do this.
And so we ended up with a pool thathas a full cabana and fireplace and
kitchen in the middle as well as thehot tubs in the middle on the island.
But, yes, I would say that is a very.

(51:05):
not as trendy as a vanishing edge, butit is definitely a project that's built
in small spaces and large spaces today.
It's incorporated and again, ifyou're trying to be involved with
the different views and the water andthe plants and things like that, it
gives you an opportunity to do that.
But, I've seen several and I've designedseveral that, the middle was actually

(51:28):
set up for, putting, it was justsome turf in the middle and, some, we
could, chip the golf balls across theriver and into the, onto the island
and go over there and put around.
So there's all kinds of stylesthat are done with that.
It's a lot of fun.
When you work with clients do you find.
That they more and more have abetter idea of what they want.

(51:51):
'cause there's so many more choicesnow, like we've been talking about.
Or does that mean that youneed to guide them more?
one of the things that's crazy about thispodcast is, we've gone out looking for
unusual and unique and different things.
what's funny is the more informationI get on all these things, it's

(52:12):
funny how these things startshowing up in projects as well.
We've got a climbing wall that's goingto be installed here shortly that's
on a pool that is literally as I'mspeaking right now they've set the
acrylic window that's going on it.
Because people see stuff.
So one of the things we talked aboutearlier today, and I think this is where

(52:34):
this comes from too, is HGTV, when yougo back 15 years ago, started showcasing,
all these crazy backyard pools.
And Scott Cohen was one of thefirst ones I'll never forget, he
had a pool that looked like a shipcrashed into it, as in pirate ship.
And the dinghy, like atheme park type thing.

(52:56):
It was like at a Disney World, okay.
And this was somebody's backyard.
And this again was like 15, 20 years ago.
that kind of stuff startedgetting exposure and people
were like, wow, that's cool.
I want something like that.
And so you start doingthings because people.
Didn't think it was possible, butthen they would see something on

(53:17):
TV and they were like amazed that,these type of things were possible.
And then what's happened since then issocial media, has gone and blown up.
And I'll never forget, Reindler andI were, talking, this was probably
seven, eight years ago, it wasactually the first year we did
the million dollar pool challenge.
And he's sitting there showing me this guyin Southern California and the crazy pools

(53:40):
that he has and his name's Danny Wang.
And I'm like, who inthe world is this guy?
I've never even heard of him.
And I'm looking at his work andI'm like, this is phenomenal stuff.
Right there outside of Huntington Beach.
And I was just like this iscrazy, but people see stuff now.
At such a high rate that they'reexposed to different things.

(54:02):
And so I think people comein with a bigger wishlist.
Now, the challenge with the biggerwishlist is some people have no
earthly idea what some of theseitems that they're talking about.
Sure.
So, Lazy River comes up all the time.
Okay.
But people don't know.
I tell people a lazy riveris like building three pools.
you have a main body of water, thenyou have the island, which from

(54:25):
all structural purposes is a pool.
You're building walls andeverything to contain it.
And then you have the outerisland, outside the inner island.
So you're building basicallythree different structures.
So if you start thinking of what's ahealthy budget for a swimming pool?
And then you multiply it by three,and then you have to put these big
variable speed, 10 horsepower pumpson then you start realizing, oh,

(54:49):
this isn't a, $120,000 swimmingpool that we're trying to do here.
So most people the budget, whenthey realize how much a lazy river
is gonna cost, it shuts 'em down.
But, I usually have at leastone a year that we're designing.
it's a fun thing.
But I. When people start lookingat acrylic windows, when they start
looking at cabanas with, sliding doorsthat are 10 feet tall and 25 feet

(55:14):
across you look at all these differentfeatures and they look fabulous.
A cantilevered cabana roof that'sjust, supported on one side, they're
phenomenal, but there's a pricetag that's associated with them.
So today, I think probably one ofthe most important things is you
have to educate the client aboutwhat I call it as a shopping list.

(55:35):
Okay?
So on my first appointment, I'mgonna gather all the information.
I'm gonna do a site analysis,and then what I'm gonna do is I'm
gonna generate a shopping list.
Here's all the things you wantedbased on your site, your utilities,
your access, your soil type.
Here's basically where you arewith all these different items.
And right away, most peopleare like, that's ridiculous.

(55:56):
I'm not gonna spend that.
Okay.
Take this off the list.
And so they start taking thethings that don't have a very
high value versus return for them.
but that's different for everybody.
A guy that we're working withright now and it's like, well, we
could take the acrylic window off.
And he's like, oh no,I can't take that off.
we gotta have that 'cause ofthe view that, it generates and,

(56:17):
the reasoning he had for it.
But, other people would be ina heartbeat, take that away.
So everybody's different.
You get all these different things,and thing that's really trending
too, that we haven't talked aboutthat's changed a lot is the fire pit.
That space outside is tremendouslychanged from, hey, it's a, place with
some boulders stacked around and someplaces you can burn some firewood,

(56:38):
basically smoke out 25% of the people,to these elaborate sunken fire pits, the
built-in seating and benching and pillowsand the whole nine yards that the whole
pool wraps around it, that's a lot oftime in the middle of your lazy river.
just, there's a price tag with allthese things and you just have to make
sure that they understand so they candecide what the important features are

(57:01):
for before you start designing things.
'cause if you take their wholewishlist and work up a design, you're
gonna be in left field and they'regonna wanna be in right field.
I mean that, there's justso many different things and
they have no earthly idea.
What some of those things costand we can incorporate 'em all.
But, there's only so manypeople that wanna build a shark
tank with a lazy river, with ago-kart that goes underneath.

(57:24):
People are like, that's crazy.
Who in the world would do that?
There is one,
There are, there was one withthe go far track that Jake.
Yeah.
we did, know, an article with florid,which to me is who in the world would
do that in a residential swimming pool?
But they're done, we cansurf in the backyard, but,
you
know,
You
can surf in your backyard now if youhave the budget and the desire to do

(57:48):
there's a, an opposite point to this too.
One of the trends thatwe've seen, I've seen is.
The spool, the small pool or spa pool, andthe idea that a lot of homes are ha are on
smaller lots and you don't have room forthe go-kart track the flow rider, exactly.

(58:12):
And so they're, they'll have sixfigures more compact concept.
I've heard the term social poolwhere, they're shallow and they
have a Baja shelf or whateveryou call those things and shade.
And it's all for hanging out, not reallyfor swimming or more vigorous activities.
another trend is fittingmore into less space.

(58:33):
Yeah.
It's a definite I did, I wanna sayfour or five pools last year that
were the size of a, a fourth, thesize of a normal swimming pool.
Because in most cases it was becausethat's the property they had to work with.
And 15 years ago people would say, youcan't even put a pool in that backyard.
These people are likeI don't need to swim.

(58:54):
Okay.
I want to hang out.
I want a cool water feature.
I want a cool fire feature.
I want the sound and visual effects,and I want it to just float around in my
swimming pool and visit with my friends.
And so I want lots of built-in seatingand bar stools and, some furniture
inside the pool and built-in table.

(59:16):
This is about, creating again,an environment that the word
swimming had nothing to do with.
It's all about, just a place to enjoy.
And some people, it's a placefor two people to enjoy.
We don't entertain that much.
I. It's just me and my spouse.
We might have another coupleover, but we're not, gonna
have 20 people in our backyard.
And so again, the scale of what we'rebuilding is very small, intimate spaces.

(59:41):
Definitely on the, I would say thecozy side in creating an environment.
And actually it was interesting to me'cause the International Awards came
out with a new category this year, whichis pools that are under certain square
footage, the whole piece of property.
So I think that's a really cool 'cause.
had a chance to check, I've got two orthree that I think fit into that category.

(01:00:04):
'cause to me, that's theultimate design challenge.
Give me a really small spaces.
Gimme a small space where ofcourse you still want everything.
Okay.
And how are you gonna fit it?
Like we had a project this lastyear, we had to get a variance.
For the pool, we had to get a variancefor the shade structure and we had to
get a variance for the fire feature.

(01:00:27):
So we were able to geta variance on all those.
with the city because we were able toget engineering to support the pool
being closer to the house and it wasjust, there's certain things that
cities are looking for and you'relike well, I can get around that.
Will you give me a variance?
And they're like, yeah, if you can getaround that issue, then we don't have

(01:00:48):
a problem with you making, you know,like a lot of cities, it's just flat.
Says all structures have tobe five feet from the water.
Okay.
What they're worried aboutis when you go to dig the
foundation it's going to cave in.
When you dig the pool you build thestructure after the pool's done, so
you don't have to worry about that.
So if you can have someone, anengineer sign off on, Hey, this

(01:01:10):
is gonna be fine if you know thestructure's right up against the pool.
And so the city's like, ohwe're not gonna have a cave in.
there's no other problem there.
And we don't have any electrical there.
So we're safe from that situation.
So yeah we can giveyou a variance on that.
But anyway, what I'm saying is you haveto be really creative sometimes in small
spaces to come up with a solution thatmeets all their needs, which is fun.

(01:01:33):
And is a great way to look at likethe spectrum of what's possible.
If you have a small space, you canstill be creative with it and you
still have a lot of the functionalityand the things that people want and
bigger, more elaborate projects.
Yeah.
So there's also these prefabpool structures you've got.

(01:01:54):
The plunge pool that's out thereright now that you can bring in
that's, like a self-contained unit.
There was a product that we sawat the Southwest Show which is
coming in from Spain, and weactually had them on an episode.
It's called Pools.
And it's basically an above groundpool that's similar to a hot tub

(01:02:17):
except it's smaller and it's builtout of the same material that they
build ledge, land chairs out of.
it's really interesting.
They've been in Spain now for 10,12 years but they're looking at
importing 'em, but they're basically,they have to fit in a container.
So they're narrow structureslike they're eight foot six.
By 15 or 22 or 30, and you basicallyset it on a concrete deck and then

(01:02:43):
you slide furniture up next to it.
And so it looks like it'sjust uh, body of water.
It's really a cool concept.
So I see it's gonna work reallywell in some small spaces or entry
level people that, you know, Hey, Ican't afford a, $85,000 pool with my
brand new home that I just bought.
That's my first home type thing.

(01:03:04):
so it's, pools have gone in allkinds of different directions.
They have gone in all kindsof different directions.
There's no doubt about it.
And I think it pays to do your researchif you're addressing creating a backyard.
Oasis,
and here's where you touched earlierthat I think is absolutely critical.

(01:03:26):
When I got in the pool industry in1992 and switched from doing landscape
design to pools, they sat me downfor a day and taught me everything I
needed to know about swimming pools.
And they basically, my classwas mostly on hydraulics.
Okay, here's the things you need toknow, but the choices were fairly simple.

(01:03:47):
I had precast coping, brickcoping and that was it.
And cantilever concrete.
And then I had two foldouts of, here'sthe tiles that are available to you.
And at that point,pebble tech didn't exist.
It was white plaster or color plaster.
So I mean, our choices back in1992 weren't real extensive.

(01:04:12):
For you to pick up what youneed to know as a professional.
Wasn't that hard to do.
Today is a totally different world.
It's a lot more,
more fast.
I know that Reed's brother rants when hewent and started selling swimming pools
on his third appointment that he wentout, they wanted a vanishing edge pool.

(01:04:33):
So here's a guy that juststarted selling pools.
This is his third call, andthey want a vanishing edge pool.
And so he draws up a vanishing edge pool.
Did he know anything aboutvanishing edge pools?
No.
Luckily he called his brother.
Okay.
And his brother walked him throughsome things okay to do and don't do.
But that's the world we live in today, ispeople get called to go out and do things.

(01:04:59):
They have no earthly idea how to do.
That's what happenedduring Covid especially.
Yeah.
Is people were like, sure.
Can't be that hard.
I'll figure it out.
And some of them did, most of them didn't.
But the big issue that is soimportant today is education.
You have, if you're gonna be aprofessional in this industry, if

(01:05:20):
you're gonna hire someone to come outand work with you on your project,
you need to have someone that hasgone and got additional education.
And it's a whole lotsimpler than it used to be.
To me, when I first started, we hadthe Aqua Show and we had the was it,
what was it?
NSPI show.

(01:05:41):
NSPI show.
I was trying to figure what initials were.
National Spa and Pool Institute.
Those were the two shows.
And the Aqua Show was really a spa show.
It really wasn't a pool show.
And so
it was primarily spas.
Yeah.
And so was only once a year that yougot to go and you got to learn classes.
And there was a couple of trade journals.
Water shapes didn't evenexist at that point yet.

(01:06:01):
And that was what you did is you wentto your one show a year if you did that.
but the things weren'tthat difficult to learn.
Today we have online education.
You can sit at your home, at your deskand learn way more than I learned in
my first 10 years in the pool industry.
From just sitting at your houseand, taking some online classes.

(01:06:22):
And then you can do advanced classes.
And so if someone's gonna come out andthey're going to talk to Mr. And Mrs.
Homeowner about all these elaborate.
Solutions and how we're gonna do allthese cool features that you've seen
on Instagram and YouTube and HGTV.
The first thing you need to ask'em is what education do you have?

(01:06:45):
What certifications do you have?
What classes have you taken,what organization are you working
with to further your education?
And the challenge is, most of themhaven't, only about 25% of the people in
the industry have do further education.
So is that what
you, that's the point is havethey taken advantage of it?
Because there are a lot of resourcesnow for people to learn this stuff.

(01:07:09):
Yeah.
It's a lot of these things, theVanishing Edge being a classic
example of certainly a lazy river,a lot of these features we've talked
about you don't learn on the fly.
No.
even make big mistakes onan outdoor kitchen, right?
Oh, sure.
can mess up anything if youdon't know what you're doing.
It's just it behooves you to, ifyou're gonna be a professional, the

(01:07:33):
quickest way to be a professionalis go take some classes.
and I know you're tied in verymuch with Water Shape University,
which is a great program.
To me I'm all about, people are a lotof times ask me, which, organization
I think has the better education.
And my feeling is why limit yourselfto one, go take it all, cause the

(01:07:53):
more you learn, the better you can be.
I'm a designer.
I want to take everybody's design classes.
I wanna learn from, everybodyfrom Kate to, All the designers,
You know,
And it's an interestingthing to point out.
Two people acquiring pools for theirhomes is the number of disciplines
that you need to be involvedin to do this work correctly.

(01:08:16):
There's excavation ingeotechnical and there's material
science with the concrete.
There's hydraulics, there'selectricity and electronics.
There's color theory, there'slighting, there's chemical treatment.
How do you assure high water quality?
People in the pool industry, whatwe adopted, calling the water

(01:08:38):
shaping industry, ' cause it goesinto other things beyond pools.
But it's a profession where you dohave to be a jack of all trades.
You have to have a multiplicity of skillsit's a combination of learning in a
classroom and in the field and experience.

(01:08:58):
I think.
The other thing that all thosethings give you is associates.
So you sit in a class and you talk tosomebody and somebody's done something
and you haven't, then you know, youhave another resource to talk to.
the nice thing is, when I did myvery first, lazy River, I called up
somebody that had built lazy rivers inthe Caribbean and said, Hey, this is

(01:09:22):
the system that I saw when I went toa pool show and I got their brochure.
I think they do a good job, butI'm not sure who'd you use on
your project in the Caribbean.
He's that's who I used.
I was like, okay then we'reprobably in a good starting spot.
And that's the cool thing is when yougo to classes, you meet instructors, you
meet other people in the industry, andso now you have resources to draw on.

(01:09:45):
So you don't have to guess.
That's the worst thing in the world isyou sit down, somebody wants something
and you're going to guess on how to doit, and you're most likely gonna fail.
So some people will fail and they'llfix it, which is expensive lesson.
But the better way is tosay, Hey, I know this person.

(01:10:08):
Pick up a phone, make a phone call.
Talk to somebody.
Go to a class.
Some of the stuff, if you're tryingto learn it, you could probably
take an online class that night.
So not that's the only thing you needto do, but then it might point you in
the right direction and give you theright people to also check stuff with.
Anyway, the pool industryhas radically changed.

(01:10:30):
It has changed the product has changed
the outdoor delivery,
To your point, just then, I wouldsay to somebody, if you find yourself
guessing, be honest with yourself, that'sthe time you need more information.
Yeah.
it's available at your fingertips.
Yeah.
From multiple resources
And we're not just askedto do pools anymore.
We're asked to do everythingoutside the four walls of the house.

(01:10:51):
That's right.
In fact, in some cases it's like,let's tear down this wall of the
house and put in, doors that open up.
We want you to figure out that part too.
there's some people inthe industry that do that.
There's people that specializethat in the outdoor living aspect.
It's mind blowing where we're at today.
it doesn't seem like that long ago,but, 30 some odd years ago when I

(01:11:15):
switched from landscaping to pools whatwe're requested do is night and day.
but it's a lot of fun.
This is why when I mentionedthat, we could do like the
evolution of the backyard.
Well, That kind of takeseverything we've talked about
over these years into account.
There's all these different tangential,we could talk about biological

(01:11:35):
filtration and swimming ponds, orwe could talk about splash pads and
interactive water and who knows, right?
Or we could, that's, it's a rich thingand it's why you can, doing, communicating
about it is a sustainable activity.
' When you penetrate it,there's a lot to talk about.
A lot to cover.

(01:11:55):
There is a lot to cover.
I think we've covered it well.
in honor of Trey, since Trey's not hereand but he likes to get to know people
better and we didn't ask you thesequestions I believe in episode 53 was
the previous episode that you were on,so you guys need to all check that out.
it was a lot of funthings we talked about.
Yeah.
If you
didn't get enough of me talking, yeah.

(01:12:16):
Trey likes to know three things.
He wants to know what your favorite movieis, what your favorite book is, your
favorite food is, and then I want to knowwhere your favorite place to travel is.
Okay.
Favorite movie?
I'm a real movie buff, so that's tough.
In that group, I like historicalepics like Lawrence of Arabia.

(01:12:37):
And Gandhi and Mutiny on theBounty those kind of films.
Then Breakfast At Tiffany'swith Audrey Hepburn classic.
That's up there too.
So hard to answer that one.
What was the second one?
Favorite food.
Yes.
Book one of those favorite FoodBoy, that's like movies I love.

(01:12:57):
Somebody asked me what kindof food you don't like?
And it's it's like, I don't know.
I like everything.
I'm a big fan these days ofhealthy vegetarian cuisine.
I try to make healthy mealsreally tasty and that can
fall into a lot of categories.
But, finely chopped vegetablesin different combinations tend
to make any dish wonderful.

(01:13:19):
Also I might throw in peanutbutter and jelly sandwiches.
cause some things youjust can never let go of.
Favorite book.
shameless plug here.
You're an author as well.
Yes, I am.
I have a book of poems and essaysout on Amazon called Moonwalks
in an Antique Space Suit.

(01:13:42):
It means life adventures in theclothes we wear, and it's a lot of
really unusual poems and essays.
Yes,
there are some.
Say again?
I said, yes, there aredefinitely some unusual poems.
we won't share.
So to ruin all the surprises,
there's, I think there's 78 pieces inthat book, and they're all different.
And so some connect with some people.

(01:14:03):
Others connect with others.
It goes everything from verystraightforward rhyming poetry to really
abstract almost stream of consciousdiscussions and about everything from.
Aging to admiring sea otters.
It really goes all over the place.
But thank you for letting me plug that.
I'm working on another one that Ihope to have out later this year.

(01:14:25):
Right now the working title is lightat the End of the Hamster Wheel.
About the cyclicality of everything.
But my favorite book is probably WaltWhitman's Leaves of Grass, big Walt fan.
And that book of poetry hasalways really spoke to me.

(01:14:45):
And it's been like afriend all these years.
I feel like I know WaltWhitman because of that book.
So that I would say if you haven'tread that one, you like it.
You probably saved the Bible.
Of course.
Of course.
And I'm a big fan of thedictionary, Websters.
Love it.
Real page Turner And then therewas a favorite place to travel.

(01:15:05):
Yes, sir.
My favorite place that I've traveledin terms of exotic destinations
like Jade Mountain on St.
Lucia.
Which we could have talkedabout in the evolution of pools.
Yes.
Is a really amazing place.
Look it up if you want to go someplaceReally romantic, off the beaten track.
It's like the hanging gardens of Babylon.

(01:15:27):
And every room has its ownvanishing edge pool and they're
open air and it's just amazing.
but, you know, less ambitious travel.
I really love Monterey, the MontereyBay, the central coast of California.
Big Sur.
That's where I've been goingthroughout my life, being from
the West, being from California.

(01:15:47):
if you're gonna come out West andgo to California, I highly recommend
places like San Luis Obispo andCambria and Monterey and Santa Cruz.
you'll go home.
Happy,
gorgeous place.
I like those questions.
That's fun.
Yeah.
And thank you Trey.
Okay, we'll let him know.
For today we have, and we'll keep at it..

(01:16:07):
Eric, I really appreciate you beingon you are one of my best friends in
the pool industry and we've same here
buddy.
We've gone through a lot of thingsin the past and I appreciate
your wealth of information.
And you're sharing today.
if someone has a really cool article,they'd you know, or a story that
would make a great article, whatwould be the best way for them

(01:16:28):
to reach out and contact you?
Reach me at eric@watershape.org,eric@watershapesingular.org.
Okay.
And it's a very easy process.
If you want to submit something thatyou think you would like to share
with the industry and the consumingpublic you deal with me directly.

(01:16:49):
We talk about it and wecome up with a game plan.
And I always love working withold friends and new friends alike.
Thanks again today and we'll lookforward to talking to you soon.
Yes, sir. Thank you.
Bye.
This show is all about helping you becomea better buyer, a better pool owner,
and hopefully you're gonna find someinsights into how to enjoy your pool even

(01:17:11):
more so how to help your friends, yourfamily, anybody looking to buy a pool in
the future or that want to remodel theirbackyard, add an outdoor fireplace, fire
pit, add an outdoor kitchen area, addsome shade cells, or whatever else it is.
We wanna be that resource for you and, andthat's the end goal here, and we promise.
That there's gonna bea ton of information.

(01:17:32):
We'll try to go through it, youknow, as relatively quickly, but
also slow so people can understand.
But the intent of the show, thereason Mike and I are doing this
is because we just got a lot inour heads and we wanna share it.
So we hope to see youhere every single week.
Thanks for listening.
I.
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