Join us as we sit in judgement with the ladies of Live, Laugh, Lore! Our hosts, Emily and Caroline, were gracious enough to delight and entertain us for an evening of spooky and mysterious tales.
Join us, and decide for yourself what is true, what is questionable and what is downright ridiculous.
We promise you'll be entertained!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When the worms crawl in, the worms crawl out.
They'll eat your gods and spit them out.
And when your bones begin to rot, the worms remain, but you
do not. So don't ever laugh as the
hearse goes by. There's someday you'll be next
(00:21):
in life. And when death brings his cold
despair, ask yourself, will anyone?
Macabre may not be suitable for all audiences.
Listener discretion is advised. Welcome dear listeners to
another spine tingling episode of Live Laugh Lore, where the
(00:43):
laughs are haunting and the loreis chilling.
Tonight we have two very specialguests.
Hallie and Blair are friends from The Macabre, a dark history
podcast. Welcome back.
Hi. Welcome to our to our episode.
Thanks for having us. We're so happy to absolutely A
little bit of background, we hada crossover episode where these
(01:06):
ladies hosted us a while back and it was super fun.
We learned a lot about ourselvesand each other and that through
the game. Would you rather which yeah, you
do learn a lot about yourself inthat game.
So yeah, so we wanted. To go it.
It does. It feels like forever ago.
It was like February. Gosh, is it April?
(01:28):
I said, almost said last week. But I just realized.
Yeah, yeah, it's April. And I feel like March was like
the longest month of my life. Three years have passed since I
know. February.
So many moons. I don't know if you guys
remember, but the lights flickered.
Yeah, in my room. I asked my dad.
He said it happens all the time.I was like, OK, well, that makes
(01:51):
me feel good because I almost threw my headphones across the
room. I was so afraid.
Should I show them the the pig? The haunted pig?
I think we figured out who the voice is.
Yeah, let me, let me find. It I heard about this in your
episode, yeah. I mean, we keep talking.
About it. It sounds horrifying it.
Is horrific. Don't mind my sweatpants.
(02:14):
This was my dad's when he was a kid.
It terrified me as a child and my when my dad, he passed away a
little while back, I decided I'mgoing to take this and I don't
know why I did because I hated this guy as a child.
But I think, I think this is, I think this is the voice so.
(02:34):
I think we named him Crispy Bacon.
We. Did we did it and.
That is my mask on. So maybe I should keep him
included in the episode just like have him here so that way
he feels, yeah, he feels included in this one since he
wanted to interrupt us so many times last.
Time get his own camera and microphone.
(02:54):
Exactly. Put it up to him and figure out
what he's got. To say yes.
So to explain for the listeners who maybe have not heard the
previous episode, my mic was picking up a disembodied male
voice who was quite the jokestersounded like, which I thought to
myself, wow, that sounds like kind of my dad interrupting me
and making jokes. So I think it's this little guy
(03:18):
he's. Cute in a horrifying way.
Yeah, I mean if you stare into the eyes for too long.
It's like all on the same level as Chucky.
I feel like it's like yes. Yes, he's a terrifying little
guy. My dad never understood why he
scared me so much. He's like, it's a pig.
Why? Just why?
He has a hat. Why are you scared?
Like, have you looked into his eyes?
(03:40):
Right. He's not.
OK. The color of him is red.
Like, you know how sometimes when you cook pork, it's like
red. I don't know what kind of like.
That's what it looks like that color.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He looks like cooked.
Pork. OK, well, he's going to be angry
about that one probably, but I'msorry.
(04:00):
I take it back. He's he's like a pig.
Well, we've spent more time introducing crispy bacon than
you guys go back to to the originally scheduled
programming. So Hallie and Blair, would you
guys like to introduce yourselves and your podcast a
little bit more? Oh, who wants to go?
(04:21):
Do you want to go? Do you want me?
To go. I can go because you have the
more the more to say so just. Last.
I'm Blair Taylor and I am a Co host on the podcast Macabre Dark
History Podcast and it was very interesting how Hallie and I met
and how we got our podcast started and Hallie is the
(04:44):
mastermind behind this crazy project that we call our
podcasts and we haven't turned back.
Yeah, we're actually moving intoseason 3 pretty soon.
And I guess to sum it up, we really talk about an umbrella of
things that fall under the macabre.
(05:04):
So it could be history, because we know there's a lot of stories
that you can unearth there that history tried to bury.
It sometimes gets a little weird.
I mean, we talk about medical oddities, weird ways to treat
things that never actually worked, histories of studs, a
(05:25):
little bit of supernatural, a little bit of true crime.
So it's a lot, but we have a lotof fun doing it.
So we just really enjoy storytelling and just shocking
our audience. So that's what we do.
I have listened to the STD episode and it was quite
shocking. Yes, I can attest to that, yeah.
(05:48):
I was, I was also telling my family about the living in a
whale carcass thing and they were, they were just like, did
it work? And my dad has like arthritis
and he's like, did it? Did it work?
Like I'm willing to try it. Willing to do anything?
(06:08):
Oh my goodness. That's kind of us in a nutshell.
Yeah, Well, amazing. Well, we loved our time with you
last time. So very excited to host you guys
here today on our episode. And we have a very fun premise
for tonight. So you guys are going to be our
jury members in the Live Laugh Lore Witch Trials.
(06:33):
OK, sometimes I call myself a judgey Mick Judgerson.
This is your. This is your moment.
This is it. So, yeah.
So tonight you are the jury. And we will be presenting you
with tales that have been whispered through time, stories
of hauntings, curses and inexplicable events that defy
(06:54):
logic. And so your task as the jury
members slash judges, I guess. I don't know.
We'll make up the rules as we go.
You are tasked with separating fact from fiction, reality from
rumor, and the supernatural fromthe suspiciously well written
fabrication. Essentially, you're going to
tell us. Do you think it's real or is it
a hoax? OK, I love it.
(07:15):
I love it. Amazing.
OK, let the trials begin. I think I have the first story
for you. OK, so for our first story I
will be telling you about the Brown Lady of Raynham Hall.
I'm gonna move. You heard of this?
I have heard of this 10. My God.
Dang it. OK, we were really hoping.
(07:36):
I was like. I feel like they're gonna know
all these things. Yes, but I need a refresher so.
Perfect, perfect. OK, Good, good, good.
Yeah, we tried to pick some stories that were maybe lesser
known, but you guys are experts after all, so.
Should have. I don't know about that.
I wish that. I wish we were my dog.
(07:57):
So the Brown Lady of Raynham Hall, a famous ghost photograph
taken in 1936. Was it a genuine apparition or
could it be explained by photographic tricks or light
reflections? Today we journey to Raynham
Hall, a stately home in Norfolk,England.
Is it Norfolk? I always say these wrong.
Norfolk, Norfolk. Norfolk.
(08:19):
Fuck England and home to one of the most famous ghosts in the
United Kingdom, the Brown Lady of Rainham Hall.
This spectral figure has captured imaginations for nearly
two centuries with her chilling story and an iconic photograph
that has kept skeptics and believers debating ever since.
(08:40):
The legend of the Brown Lady begins with her identity,
Dorothy Walpole, sister to Robert Walpole, Britain's first
Prime Minister. So she's a big deal, some would
say. Dorothy married.
Robert Waffle. God, yeah.
I was waiting for the the shock and awe, but it's fine.
(09:05):
It's all good. I don't even know how to
pronounce the town, so I think we're fine.
Dorothy married Charles Townsend, the second Viscount
Townsend, a man infamous for hisfiery temper.
Love that. According to the tale, their
marriage took a tragic turn whenCharles discovered Dorothy's
alleged infidelity with Lord Wharton.
(09:28):
Scandal the drama? Love it.
In a cruel act of punishment, it's said that Charles confined
Dorothy to her room in Raynham Hall, forbidding her even the
comfort of seeing her own children.
There's also an alternative version of the story that paints
a different villain, slightly the Countess of Wharton, who
(09:48):
lured Dorothy to her home under the guise of hospitality, only
for Dorothy to be trapped there by her husband's orders.
Either way, her husband was involved.
Dorothy's life ended tragically at Raynham Hall in 1726, the
official cause recorded as smallpox.
Yet her restless spirit, clad ina brown brocade dress, is said
(10:10):
to linger in the halls of her former prison.
The first sighting of the Brown Lady dates back to Christmas of
1835. Colonel Loftus, a guest at
Random Hall, claimed to have seen the apparition while
retiring to his room. He described her wearing an
outdated brown dress. Rude and what haunted him were.
(10:30):
Very rude. Outdated.
All right. That's true.
What do you know about my dress?But what haunted him most were
her hollow, empty eye sockets. EW Gross.
The following year, Captain Frederick Marriott, a noted
novelist and friend of Charles Dickens.
(10:50):
We know who he is, right? Amazing.
I've heard of him. I've heard of his his works.
Yes, he had his own brush with the Brown Lady.
Marriott, determined to debunk the haunting as the work of
smugglers, spent several nights in the Hall's most haunted room.
But on his last night, as he roamed the dim corridor, he saw
(11:11):
her approaching, carrying a lamp.
In a moment of terror and fury, he fired his revolver at the
figure, only for the bullet to pass through the apparition,
embedding itself in the door behind her.
Sightings continued into the 20th century, including an
encounter in 1926 on the grand staircase by Lady Townsend's
(11:31):
son, but none were as significant or as controversial
as the events of September 19th,1936.
On that day, Captain Hubert C Provand, a photographer for
Country Life magazine, and his assistant Indre Shira, we're
we're photographing Raynham Hall's staircase.
(11:53):
According to their account, Shira is that.
Did I say that right? Is it photographing?
Photographing. I just saw the pig like I forgot
it was there. I'm sorry it.
Just gets gradually closer and closer.
To the. Yes, super.
Condo was there, I was. Like he's my Co host today.
(12:20):
You're fine. According to their account,
Shira noticed a misty form descending the steps and urged
Pravand to capture it. When the negative was developed,
the now famous image of the brown lady emerged and I am
going to share the image with you in the chat so you guys can
see the evidence if you will forthis case.
(12:42):
Oh yeah. Oh.
Yeah. The photo, published in Country
Life and later in Life magazine,created an international
sensation. Paranormal investigator Harry
Price interviewed the photographers and found their
story convincing, describing theimage as genuine.
(13:02):
However, skeptics have proposed alternative explanations.
Some argue that the image resulted from grease on the lens
or an accidental double exposure.
Magician John Booth replicated asimilar image using a bed sheet
and clever photography. Others suggest the figure
resembles a statue of the VirginMary superimposed on the
(13:23):
staircase. Which if you look at a statue of
the Virgin Mary, it does look like the same shape.
I will give them that. Despite these theories, the
photograph remains one of the most iconic paranormal images of
all time. As the years past, sightings of
the Brown Lady have become rare,leading some to speculate that
her spirit may have moved on to other nearby estates such as
(13:44):
Houghton Hall or Sandringham House.
I don't know why those would be significant to her, but she's
traveling. Good for her, good for her.
Yes, yet her legacy endures not only in the chilling tales of
her appearances, but in the way she reminds us of the human
stories behind these hauntings of love, betrayal, and tragedy.
(14:04):
The end. So what do you guys think?
Is it real or is it a hoax? Who wants to start?
I mean. OK, I got to go back to fucking
Colonel. What's his nuts because?
The. Audacity.
I'm sorry but if you're going tobe scared at something and then
(14:27):
after be like but that dress. Though, But that dress girl.
Yeah. OK, come on, Colonel.
That that, yeah, we're out of the jury.
It's an important note, yes, Yeah.
Can you trust a man with that poor fashion taste?
(14:48):
No. Good thing he's not on this jury
anymore. Clearly he has some things to
say. I am also on the fence about
this. I kind of lean towards the fact
that it could be real. Just I've looked at this thing
for years on and off and I kind of go back and forth, but at
(15:11):
this point I'm going to say it'sreal.
Love that, and we love we can always change our minds.
Yeah. It's an open case forever.
We'll never close it. Sometimes it's it's fun to just
give into it, you know? Exactly.
Let it take hold. Exactly.
Yes. So I'm gonna I'm gonna say this
(15:33):
particular photo. I don't know that I believe the
photo per SE, OK, Because we're talking about this time frame
where spiritualism is a big thing and everybody's trying to
make headlines. And this was in two big
different, you know, publications including life.
(15:55):
So I don't know that I necessarily believe this photo.
And then the previous guy was a friend of Charles Dickens, who
was an author who wrote ghost stories.
So I don't know if I believe that guy necessarily either
because he would have heard the story, been curious about it.
Is there any evidence of the bullet through the door?
(16:15):
I looked it up and I could not find anything about that.
So maybe they replaced the door,maybe it never happened, I don't
know. Yeah.
Now do I believe that this storyabout the lady could be true
100%? You know, I just think some of
the stuff that happened afterwards where they're trying
to prove it, maybe not necessarily the most reliable,
(16:36):
but the story itself I do want to believe because, yes,
multiple people have had the same sighting and describe her
in a certain kind of way, which is consistent.
Yeah. So that's kind of my take on it.
I want to believe the base storyis true and that the evidence
they try to provide maybe is notso much.
(16:57):
Honestly, that was that was kindof my take as well, especially
seeing side by side images of the Virgin Mary and how it it
looks very similar to that. Already spot on.
It's pretty spot on, but I feel like maybe the sightings were
true, but the evidence, like yousaid, that they've tried to give
(17:18):
with this photograph just was a way of, you know, making this
story more. Sensationalizing it.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Caroline, do you have an opinion?
We're part of the jury now all of a sudden.
I too think it's real again, thephoto I'm like, it's like too
perfect of an apparition or apparition to.
(17:41):
Our. To be real, I think, but I mean,
why wouldn't there be a ghost there?
I I don't have any reason to saythat there.
Wouldn't exactly. And also on a grand staircase.
Dramatic. Who am I to say she doesn't
exist? Who am I to say?
And I bet she looks fabulous in her brown dress.
(18:05):
Oh heck yeah. My goodness, yes, let's give the
girl a break. Also, what is specific
description or something that's not real?
Yeah, right. Like an out.
Oh, but she was wearing an outdated dress.
Yeah. Yeah, she was terrifying.
She had no eyeballs. But also.
That dress. That dress Embarrassing.
(18:26):
Yeah, the no eyeballs part. Is horrifying.
Exactly, exactly. I just.
Feel like I would have been flexed more on that, yeah.
Exactly, just get her to say thesame thing.
I don't think I would have looked anywhere but those eye
holes. She could have been naked.
And blue, I don't know. Oh my naked.
I wouldn't have known it. Oh, my goodness, yes.
(18:50):
But this man, he was a storyteller.
So he, he made sure to get all of the details for us.
Thank goodness for him. Oh, yeah.
So I think we can chalk this up as a.
We want to believe that this is real.
Yeah. Maybe some of it is a hoax, but
we want to believe the root of it is real.
You have been judged. You.
Have been judged, yes. Sometimes it's a Gray area,
(19:15):
right? That happens in court, I think,
no. Gavel.
Yeah. There you go, guilty.
Perfect. Guilty.
Guilty. That's a ghost.
OK. All right.
Caroline, would you like to tellyour story?
(19:36):
Yes. Oh, I'm nervous.
I don't know why. I'll take a step.
Through that court. OK, so I'm doing the story of
the Cottingly fairies. Have you heard of these?
No, not me. Is it the?
Photo with the kid it is. I was right, OK.
(19:57):
Cool. OK, so this is the curious tale
of the Cottingly Fairies, which began in the summer of 1917.
When 9 year old Francis Griffithand her mother returned home to
England from South Africa to stay with some extended family,
it was in Kottingling, West Yorkshire, England.
(20:18):
Polly and Arthur Wright and their 16 year old daughter Elsie
lived in a small wooded valley which ran through the
Kottingling Beck. Where the Kottingling Beck
flowed through this area, which is like a stream essentially, So
it's a beautiful, picturesque stream that flows over rocky
outcrops overshadowed by trees. It quickly became the favorite
(20:42):
spot for Elsie and Francis to explore together.
But their parents got upset thatthey kept coming back to the
house soaking wet after playing in the stream.
And so when confronted, the girls replied that they went
there to see the fairies. Of course, the family didn't
believe them, so Elsie borrowed her father's camera and went to
(21:02):
find proof. Now I don't know about you, but
I've have you guys been to the United Kingdom, like England or
Scotland? OK.
No. So I've been to Ireland and I
feel like it is the most magicalplace and you could never tell
me that fairies are not real. After all, fairies are real.
(21:22):
And if I'm traveling through Cottingly Beck or a stream or a
wooded area, I'm going to be like, yeah, there's fairies.
I used to think there was fairies in my backyard in
Raleigh, NC. They.
Probably were. Yeah.
So anyway, OK, where was I? Within an hour, the girls were
(21:44):
back with proof of the fairies. So Elsie's father, Arthur, had a
special interest in photography and Elsie had used his camera to
take photos of these fairies. Her father took the plate into
his own dark room to be developed, and the image that
was created shows Frances with her head slightly tilted and
gazing off to the right of the photographer.
(22:06):
In front of her were several winged figures dressed in
elegant clothing that seemed to be dancing.
Arthur was suspicious, but laterthat year in September, Elsie
came back with yet another platethat showed Elsie holding her
hand out to a gnome like winged figure.
But Arthur was still not convinced.
(22:26):
Elsie's mother Polly had a little bit of a different
opinion. So she was very interested in
the theosophical movement. The Theo.
Theo. Oh my gosh, how do you say this?
Theosophists. Yeah, Theosophists.
There are individuals that are part of a spiritual movement.
It was founded in the late 19th century.
(22:47):
It's an eclectic blend of esoteric teachings, philosophy
and science, and they focus on the concept of universal
brotherhood, and they study the hidden laws of nature.
So one of their key beliefs was that humankind was kind of going
under this process of transformation, and that would
lead eventually to the perfection of the species.
(23:09):
So she took a photo, this photo of Elsie with the fairies, to
one of the lectures, which actually the subject of this
lecture happened to be fairy life.
And that images caught the attention of society's members,
especially a man named Edward Gardner, who was one of the
leading members of the society. Edward believed that these
(23:33):
images were proof that a great metaphysical change was in the
works. The photographs were examined by
a photographic expert who confirmed that the images were
authentic of what was in front of the camera, but not
necessarily confirming that the fairies were real themselves.
Gardner Gardner used the images in his lectures and later began
(23:57):
selling prints. The images appeared in a
spiritualist magazine that caught the eye of another man
named Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who was writing a Do you know
him? Merch unfamiliar?
I don't know. He was writing a piece on
(24:19):
fairies for Strand magazine and asked the girls for permission
to use the photos, Conan Doyle wrote.
The recognition of their existence will jolt the material
20th century mind out of its heavy ruts in the mud, and it
will make it admit that there isa glamour and a mystery to life.
Having discovered this, the world would not find it so
(24:40):
difficult to accept the spiritual message, supported by
physical facts, which has already been so convincingly put
before it. Following this publication, it
went on to be published in Australia and in the US.
The images achieved worldwide notoriety and attracted
widespread skepticism. In 1921, a second set of images
(25:01):
were published and debate continued on for decades
regarding the authenticity of the photos.
So I'm going to show you the. Photos and for those listening,
we will also be posting. We'll be posting this online.
So I actually remember looking these up with my sister when we
(25:21):
were younger because I think we wanted fairies to be real.
And we saw these photos and we were like, Oh my.
Gosh, no, they're really cool. So there was some speculation
that they could be, you know, Prince or this could be doctored
in some sort. But keep in mind this is pretty
early in the 20th century, so obviously Photoshop is not a
(25:44):
thing. So this sparked a lot of debate,
thinking that the girls had set up some hopes, but the girls
maintained that these were real fairies in the back.
These were taken when. 1917. I find it interesting that the
(26:05):
the fairy in the first picture that you sent, she's dressed in
very like 19 like era specific attire with the like haircut.
Yeah, very flapper girl. Flapper Fairy.
Right. Which I mean, maybe she's just
keeping up with the trends, but also like, could she be a doll,
a little like figurine or something?
(26:27):
What about like a magazine cut? I mean a magazine cut out or
something. She looks very two-dimensional,
kind of, yeah. The second one though does not
look 2 dimensional, No. All I can think is like maybe
it's a doll or maybe it's a fairy.
I. Hope it's a fairy?
Maybe. So what do we think?
(26:49):
It's a hoax or 'cause I I think it's a hoax, yeah.
Just based on the photos, I'm going to say hoax.
So this one actually does have an answer.
In 1983, Elsie finally confessedto the images being a hoax.
So they were actually copied from magazines it was an image
(27:13):
from. Yep.
I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, you hit the nail on the head.
It was from Princess Mary's giftbook, which was published in
1914, and essentially they had traced them, redrawn them, and
they had been held up right using hat pins.
Oh. To the two-dimensional, yeah.
(27:35):
And so this one was the second set of photos.
And again, for everyone listening, I'm going to post
this on our social media. But this one, to me looks, you
know, I mean, it kind of gives it away that they're not real.
Yeah. So the first one, if you look at
that one closely, it's sitting on like a leaf or something, you
(27:58):
know, like for more support. I mean, this also seems like
something that I would definitely do as a young girl,
not even like. And then I would be so mad at my
mom. Like mom, why did you share
this? Now I have to keep this lie
going, like now it's embarrassing.
(28:22):
I can't say it's fake. I was just trying to pull a
prank and now here I am. Yep.
Oh my goodness. Yeah.
Who took the photo? Then the girls took the photos
of each other. Yep.
So this I believe it was Elsie who took the photo.
She apparently was pretty good at doctoring photos of.
(28:42):
She had a little bit of a talentfor it, just like her father
did. So.
Makes sense they were curious about that too, since that was a
hobby of their father's, you know?
I didn't know, she confessed. When was that?
1993 So she was, She was. Like.
(29:03):
Well, I'm about to go. I might as well tell.
Deathbed confession. Oh my God.
That is wild. I wonder how much money they
made off of that. Yeah, 'cause they were selling.
Gosh. Yeah, probably so much money, I
wonder. If anybody like sued once, she
confessed. Well, Edward Gardner, he
(29:26):
literally, till the day he died,he believed that they were real.
He would not let it go. Oh.
Good for him. I feel bad.
Yeah. I love a man who believes in
fairies. Right.
Want to believe? Sometimes you just want to
believe, you know? Exactly.
There are worse things in this world to believe in.
Let's. Let's believe in fairies.
(29:50):
Yeah. Hold on to that, Edward.
I'll support you. OK, so that has been proven here
and elsewhere to be a hoax. Sounds like perfect.
Yeah. But like.
I don't know. I don't think fairies are real.
I think I remember seeing these as a kid and me and my sister
were like Oh my gosh, fairies are real.
(30:13):
Yeah, and I will back up what Caroline said, too.
I've been to Ireland and it's literally the most beautiful.
Like even just sit standing in aparking lot.
I'm like, magical things have happened here.
I. Just know it so beautiful.
I I fell asleep on the bus on the way to Galway and I woke up
and I was like, I was like, Oh my.
(30:34):
God, it's like so beautiful. I've never seen anything like
it. I was like, what?
So I do have a question, this may be a little bit off topic
but maybe not. Do you?
Are you familiar with the topic of Ley lines?
Oh my goodness, I remember listening to a podcast episode
(30:55):
about it a long time ago. Basically, there are these
invisible lines called Ley linesthat cross all over the globe at
certain points. And I'm just curious if you
looked at a map of the Ley lines, if in Ireland, you would
see that pass through or crossover because there are
certain places. I feel like Mount Shasta is one
(31:17):
of the places where I had an experience and it was like
overwhelmingly emotional and it's a spiritual Mecca for that
reason. So I'd just be curious to see if
Ireland has those. But they do.
There are, they do. It looks, yeah, looks like there
are. But I don't know if it was where
I was. I mean, I think part of it was
(31:40):
just us being Americans finally going somewhere that has like
history and. I guess, yeah.
And it would love to go. It feels magical.
But yeah, it looks like there's quite a quite a few.
It's more in like Northern Ireland it looks like.
That's really cool. Be interested, it's a good idea.
(32:00):
Explore that a little bit more. Yeah.
OK, well, whole new rabbit hole for us to dive into, I know.
There's something going on therefor sure, 'cause it is.
It is, truly. Magical.
Yes. OK.
Are we ready for our third case?All right.
Bring it to learn it, bring out the thought I gotta do.
(32:22):
My love again. There you go that like.
That was that reverberated. It's perfect.
Sorry. Oh, I love it.
OK, so this one is the miracle of the sun.
Have you guys heard of this one?No.
OK, perfect. So this one has, it's gained
notoriety not so much because ofthe amount of proof, but because
(32:47):
of the number of people that it affected and who believe in
this. So in 1917, thousands of people
in Fatima, Portugal claimed to witness the sun dancing in the
sky. Was it a divine miracle or could
it be explained by optical illusions or mass hallucination?
(33:08):
We'll find. Out.
All right, it's October 13th, 1917.
A crowd of 70,000 people gather in a muddy field in Fatima,
Portugal. They've come in response to a
prophecy made by three shepherd children, Lucia Santos and her
cousins Francisco and Jacinta Marto.
(33:30):
The children claimed that the Virgin Mary, whom they called
the Lady of the Rosary, promisedto perform a miracle On this
date so that all may believe. So.
Again, we're listening to children, so keep that in mind
in this story as well. What followed that day has
become one of the most debated religious phenomena in history.
(33:50):
Witnesses reported a series of extraordinary solar phenomena.
After a period of rain, the sun emerged as a spinning disc in
the sky. It cast multi colored lights,
zigzagged towards the earth, andthen returned to its original
position. Many claimed that their wet
clothes and the muddy ground around them dried
(34:11):
instantaneously after this happened.
However, not everyone saw the same thing.
Some witnesses only observed radiant colors, while others,
including skeptics, saw nothing unusual at all.
Newspapers of the time, including secular and skeptical
outlets, documented these claims, adding to the intrigue.
Despite the varying accounts, one thing was certain.
(34:32):
Something extraordinary happenedthat left an indelible mark on
those present. They actually have a clipping
picture of a clipping of this event and you can kind of get a
idea of just how many people were gathered around based on
this prophecy that these children had.
(34:53):
Wow. Told everyone of Wow.
Yes, quite a few. Some would say.
Oh. My gosh.
Yes, also I loved the outfits. Too.
It was really cool to see, like what they were wearing in 1917.
(35:13):
Very cool, right? That outdated brown dress?
You know, such an outdated browndress.
Thank God the Colonel isn't here.
Thank God he'd be ripping them to shreds.
He would. All right, so shortly after the
event, the Catholic Church beganinvestigating.
Bishop Jose Desalva declared thephenomenon worthy of belief in
(35:36):
1930, paving the way for official devotion to Our Lady of
Fatima. Even Pope Pius the 12th claimed
to witness a similar solar eventin 1950 while walking in the
Vatican Gardens. When I read that the first time,
I was like, so he just wanted tocopy and just say like, well, I
had, I saw it too, but you guys weren't there.
(35:57):
So it's just me. It was just, it was just, it was
just for me. Father John Demarke, an Italian
priest, spent years interviewingwitnesses.
He concluded that the event could not be explained by mass
hallucination or hysteria, citing that the sheer number and
diversity of accounts, includingreports from skeptics and non
(36:17):
believers. Of course, not everyone agrees
on the miraculous nature of the event.
Critics argue that prolonged staring at the sun could have
caused optical illusions. Atmospheric conditions,
including dust clouds, might have explained the visual
phenomena as well. Scientists like Augusta Meeson
(36:37):
suggest that retinal effects caused by sun gazing could
create the illusion of movement and color changes, and others
propose psychological factors such as the power of suggestion
influenced by the crowd's perceptions.
Which I think that one is a verygood argument.
If I traveled all this way basedon a prophecy and nothing
(36:58):
happened, but some people are saying it happened, I really
would want to believe that I didnot just waste my time.
Right. And so I might lean into it a
little bit. It's kind of like when you, when
you like, went to Jesus camp growing up.
You know what I mean? It's a.
Universal experience cause everyone's crying 'cause.
(37:19):
They're like, Jesus touched me. And so you're like, oh, OK.
And then you start crying because you think, but then
you're singing head. What's wrong with me?
Nothing. 'S gone.
Oh my gosh. No, no.
I had an. Experience Pretty pretty
universal I think actually, which is a.
Sad part. Oh my God, everyone.
(37:42):
Oh my God. OK, yeah, that brought back so
much. Stuff I tried to bury, yeah.
I will never forget that. I was like, something's wrong
with me. I don't feel anything.
Yes, I remember there was a likeprayer group at one of these
Jesus camps and there was one girl who she was like, I, I
(38:03):
don't want to say my prayer out loud, it's too personal.
But Jesus knows my prayer. And so then of course, I had to
be like, 'cause I couldn't thinkof anything to pray about.
So it's like Jesus knows my, my prayer as well.
And I, well, I was going to carry that to my grave, but I
had nothing. He didn't know what my prayer
was. I didn't know what my prayer
(38:23):
was. None of us knew.
But I couldn't. I had to perform.
You had to. Perform embarrassing.
When you put on the spot like that, it's like exactly.
Like well, I things are pretty good right now.
I don't have anything to right now but.
Of like I'm God I hope I get a boyfriend suit.
That's probably my prayer. I'm 14 years old.
(38:44):
Yeah, exactly. Well, someone kissed.
Me. Oh.
My God, yes, yes, exactly. Yes.
OK, so but what about the claim that the event was seen miles
away from Fatima? Could it have been a localized
atmospheric anomaly, or is this evidence of something more?
It was supposedly seen in the region as a whole in that area.
(39:08):
For believers, the miracle of the sun is a testament to divine
intervention, fulfilling Mary's promise to the shepherd
children. The event's timing, coinciding
with historical milestones like the end of World War One and the
rise of communism, adds to its spiritual significance.
Spirituality was on the rise at this time.
(39:29):
Theologians, theologians, theologians.
Theologians. Theologians, thank you.
OK, Was this the same word, Caroline, that you got stuck
with too? No no, it was close.
Mine was Theosophics or something like that.
It's probably the same exact thing though.
Yes, yes, that in photography and photographing.
(39:53):
I know going my pianos is actually hard.
Yeah, my goodness, why do we have to make English so hard,
right? Anyways.
Theologians like Father Andrew Consent argue that miracles
often use natural phenomena to convey divine messages.
In this view, the event at Fatima was not just a miracle of
faith, but also a call to reflection and repentance.
(40:16):
So what do we make of the miracle of sun?
Was it divine intervention, A remarkable natural occurrence,
or a trick of the mind? What do you guys, what do you
say? This is a.
Blair what? Yeah.
I think it's two things. I think it's natural phenomena
(40:38):
and I think it's trick of the mind.
Like we talked about power of suggestion is very heavy in
everything that we do. And especially after it rains or
you have weird situation with weather where you're you're
seeing illusions like when it's too hot in the summertime and
you're driving down the road, itlooks like the the road is water
(41:01):
and stuff like that. I think that in this case, this
is probably what was going on. And then, like you said, when
people were staring at the sun for too long and they're like,
well, I mean, I'm not even staring at my ring light right
now, but if I close my eyes or look around, I'm seeing, you
know, purple, you know, light rings.
Oh yeah, like when you close your eyes.
And you see the. Yeah.
(41:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's the point. So I think it was those things.
And then like I said, too travelling and you're like, I
didn't see anything. And then, well, I did see
something well. Maybe I saw something.
Yeah, Gary next to me saw it. So I saw it, you know.
Now I feel like a lone Jesus. Knows my prayer.
(41:43):
I saw it. Yeah.
Holly, what do you think? Well, this was supposed to be a
religious event that was happening, correct?
Like people came to this area for this religious event.
We do have to consider the time frame and World War One, and
(42:03):
then all the people that were supporting it are also religious
figures. So I feel like there was maybe a
different agenda kind of pushingthis idea, a little mass
hysteria and looking at the sun for a little too long.
I'm gonna be the the skeptic, the negative naysayer in the
(42:24):
group. I would agree with both of you.
I also will I must present I do have a bias.
I'm not a religious person so I am not as quick to lean towards
that side, but I would like to know more about the three
shepherd children that had this prophecy.
Like where did that come from? Who and how long have they been
(42:46):
talking about it? Exactly how did they get 70,000
people? Like, do you think that they
maybe stared at the sun for too long?
And then they were like, let's, like, how old were they?
Were they 4? Or were they like 12?
And they're like, let's play a prank on everyone.
That I don't know, right? But they, they said that they
knew the date of when something would happen, that the Virgin
(43:09):
Mary was going to do some sort of miracle On this date.
They didn't know what it was, but they knew who and when.
So supposedly. Yeah, well, I feel like to this
time frame people would have been looking for any kind of a
(43:29):
distraction and hope. Yeah.
True. And a lot of people who are
religious, they cling to that because they are looking for
miracles and and hope and good things.
And I mean, just have to think about what was going on at that
time and how terrible it would have been.
You know, so something like thiswould have been all over
(43:50):
newspapers and. True, that was one of the points
that was called out actually forthe fairies.
It was that during this time people were, you know, going
through a lot there was a war and there was a lot of stress
and people were looking kind of for more fantasy like to
(44:10):
romanticize life a little bit. And so believing in fairies kind
of takes the your mind off of well, we could die any day
because of all, you know, something could happen.
So right, you know. And also, I think that this is
one of those instances where it hurts no one if it was true,
like it seemed to help a lot of people in this moment.
(44:33):
So yeah, hurts no one at all to believe that it's true or not,
especially, Yeah, in this time frame, that makes that makes a
lot of sense. So I like to believe in fairies
because I don't want to deal with, you know, real life.
So I get it, yeah. Escapism, right?
Exactly, yes, 100%. I know that that's what's
(44:53):
happening, but you know right I.Believe in a.
Lot I We have these podcasts. Yeah.
Exactly. Yep, that's why we're here
today. Yes.
Oh my. Goodness, escapism has saved us
all. Exactly.
So I think case closed on that, probably mass, a little bit of a
(45:13):
mass hysteria moment, but also kind of a beautiful story at the
end of the day. Yeah, yeah.
All right, I think we have one more.
All right, we have one more. So this is the dancing play, the
dancing plague. Which one?
Which 115? 1518, Yeah, more than one.
(45:35):
I like this one. OK, so you guys know.
OK. All right, straight, everyone
knows I'm. Excited.
So hundreds of people in Strasbourg danced uncontrollably
for weeks. Was it a case of mass
possession? Or could it have been a form of
(45:55):
mass hysteria or a reaction to contaminated food?
In July 1518, residents of the city of Strasbourg in Germany
were struck, which is now in Germany were struck by a sudden
and seemingly uncontrollable urge to dance.
The hysteria started when a woman known as Frau Trophia, I
(46:18):
think I'm saying that right, raninto the street and began
silently twisting, twirling and shaking.
I too, have done. That was when I've had a little
too much. Relatable.
It's like when I had too much todrink and Lady Gaga comes on.
I'm like. Exactly.
Listen, somebody has to start the dance on the dance floor and
(46:40):
let it be her, Yeah. Heck yeah.
She seemed unable to stop and kept dancing until she collapsed
from exhaustion. After resting, she began the
frenzied activity. Once again, she kept up this
solo dance, the solo dance a thon, for nearly a week, and
during that time, three dozen others joined in.
(47:01):
They all kept going past the point of injury.
There was no explanation at the time for the phenomenon, and
local physicians blamed it on hot blood.
Maybe that's. What that's?
There's a cure for that. You read my mind there.
You go. They suggested that they simply
(47:23):
had to dance and shake the feveraway.
OK. The civic and religious leaders
theorized that more dancing was the solution, and they arranged
for Guild halls for the dancers to gather with musicians to
accompany the dancing. By August, the epidemic had
claimed as many as 400 victims. A number of them actually died
(47:47):
from exhaustion and then finallyin early September, the mania
stopped. This event was thoroughly
documented and it was the last of actually several outbreaks
across Europe. Other events had taken place
between the 10th and 16th centuries.
A better known outbreak occurredin 1374 across the Rand River.
(48:09):
The explanation at the time was that St.
Vitus, a Catholic St. Who Pius, 16th century Europeans
believed had the power to curse people with the dancing plague,
specifically people that did notfollow him devoutly.
When combined with the horrors of disease and famine, both of
which were were tearing through Strasbourg in 1518, the Saint
(48:31):
Vitus superstition may have triggered a little bit of stress
induced hysteria and cause some of the dancing or he was truly
cursing people. Other theories go on that the
dancers were actually part of a religious cult or they ingested
a specific mold called ergot, which I'm sure we all are very
familiar with. Ergot.
(48:53):
We all know what? Yeah.
What the hell went on with that?This is a type of mold that
grows on damp rye and it produces spasms and
hallucinations. So anyone listening that does
not know what ergot is, that is the main theory behind the Salem
witch trials and all of the craziness that happened there,
(49:14):
that it was not witchcraft, it was mold.
So. Yeah.
So. What do you think?
Ergot. Ergot.
Ergot yeah, I think it, I think it's definitely that.
And then maybe that also was also a little bit of power of
suggestion. After a while, it's like, well,
if they're gonna friend do this,you know, I can act weird for
(49:36):
once and nobody will, you know, I've made for it.
So. They were bored back then.
They. Were have you guys seen the
videos of God? I'm getting real.
You know what? Whatever the videos of the women
who claimed that after they tookthe COVID vaccine, they shook
uncontrollably. Yes.
(49:58):
No. It was proven false, but yeah,
one of them like said that they were like forced to walk
backwards now. Like they could only walk
backwards. Or.
Something and like more people kind of came, jumped on board
and it was. All over Facebook.
If you what was what was really interesting was that they were
shaking, but their camera was absolutely still no place.
(50:22):
Interesting. Yeah, I.
Feel like it's kind of like. Yeah, yeah, I feel like the fact
that this, the dancing plagues have happened multiple times
throughout history kind of makesit a little bit more credible
because, you know, I mean, that's a big deal.
I think that just the time frame, food quality and all
(50:46):
those kinds of things would comeinto play.
So yeah, I want to say this. This is this would be the one
that I believe the most so far out of all the stories.
Yeah. Definitely agreed.
I feel like too, like maybe thatfirst woman who started the
dance craze, maybe she ingested the ergot, but I feel like not
(51:07):
all of the people probably. No.
Had ingested that like the mass hysteria like you were talking
about I think. Maybe she just had anxiety like
sometimes before I'm about to have a panic attack I have to
get up and do jumping jacks because I feel like I'm going to
jump out of my skin if I don't move.
That's a good way to like, you know that.
(51:29):
Yeah. Yeah, I should try that next
time. The anxiety never went away for
her. I don't maybe it was really bad
anxiety. I mean, she thought a priest was
cursing her. I mean, maybe, right.
That's a lot of. Stress.
That is a lot of stress, yes. And they had disease and famine.
Right. She's probably like, well, if
I'm going to go out by as well. Exactly.
(51:49):
I'm going to get my name in the papers.
I'm. Going to get that old razzle
dazzle in before I. Can they all razzle dazzle?
Shake, shake that money maker. Jazz hands.
Jazz hands. Hot to be Rachel.
Oh my goodness. What is that form of dancing
called that Liza Minnelli used to do all the time?
(52:11):
And it was like the very like like.
All I can think of was cabaret, but I think it's.
It's like named after the choreographer.
Or something. And I'll look it up.
What's her name? She's on SNL and she does a skit
about it where she's like tryingto turn off a lamp, but she has
to dance. And like it took forever because
(52:32):
she never makes it to the lamp. She's like, oh, let me go over
here. And Justin Wig.
That's her. I love.
Her the chitter plot, I love her.
I don't know. No.
It was. A style of of choreography.
I'm going to remember it the minute that we hang up here.
(52:52):
That would honestly be such a good I was thinking that'd be a
good S and I'll get to like redothe dancing plague but have like
Liza Minnelli come in or someonedressed as Liza Minnelli.
That would be awesome. That would be such a guys.
I literally wish I was on SNL because I write down these
things. I'm like, that'd be a good.
(53:13):
SNL stand regular. It's Bob Fosse.
So. Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah.
Love it. Her use of his hands.
Signature movement. Oh, my goodness.
I mean, you could really test out a lot of different dance
(53:33):
styles without any any judgementin that moment.
So I guess that's that's great. The original flash mop.
Literally. Yeah, we can add that to our
weirdest ways to die. It is a weird way to die.
Very weird, I didn't know that it happened more than once too.
Like when was the most recent time that it happened?
(53:55):
That was the last 1 I think. That was the last one.
They said that that one was the last one.
That was when they said, you know what, enough with the
ergot. We're done with that.
It's causing problems. There's at least 5 documented
cases. Crazy.
Yeah, that's insane. Yeah, sure, be fun at first.
(54:20):
I mean, yeah. At first.
And then I'd be exhausted. I'm like, yeah, I felt like kind
of. Pretending how do you not pass
out after a certain point? Because if you've ever been to a
dance club and you dance for like 2 hours straight, that's a
that's like exhausting. I don't know, like keep going.
I kept thinking about Gilmore Girls when they do the 24 hour
(54:41):
dance competition on Gilmore Girls.
That's what, yes. No.
Were they on some other drugs though?
Because you think about like, uppers would keep you going, but
you'd still have to eat. And like, they didn't even take
potty breaks, right? They didn't stop to pee or do
anything. I don't want to think about the.
(55:03):
State of that dance floor. Oh my goodness, whole new level
stomping in something. Yeah, so don't drop it low
because you'll find things you don't want to see.
Yeah, like No Hands by Flocka. Flocka Flame came on.
They're like you can't. Stop.
(55:28):
Oh my God. And imagine being the people
they asked to come and play music first.
Exactly. They're just, they're like, are
they ever gonna fucking? Like, Can you imagine?
They're like literally suffering.
They can't stop dancing. And then they're like, bring in
the music and it's like. Maybe music is not the best
idea. Yeah, please.
(55:51):
The poor band is just like. What are these like the band
eventually join in, like, right?I don't know.
Were they talking to each other while this was happening?
I, I would love to know more, but I guess.
Well, those were our stories fortoday.
You guys were a wonderful jury. I think this will go down in
(56:14):
history. We've answered all of the
questions that remained for these stories.
And yeah, I think we can all agree unanimously that fairies
are real. And I think that's, that should
be our, our last, you know, message coming out of this.
Birds aren't real, but fairies are.
Yes, birds are government drones.
(56:36):
Fairies are real. You heard it here first.
Yes, they just can't be photographed.
That's the trick. Like.
Exactly right. Yes.
They wanted us to believe in birds so much that they created
bird watching, you know, as a hobby.
They were like this. Look at them.
They'll believe it. Now let's make that.
(56:57):
Was my COVID hobby actually. Let's make it an I actually love
bird watching, I really do. I love birds, but.
I was like, I'm going to learn all the backyard birds.
And I sat there like. That's awesome.
Well, that was all that we had today.
Thank you so much for joining us.
It was so much fun as as always.Yes, thank you for having us.
(57:20):
This was so fun. Love it.
Yes, hopefully you guys did hearat least one new thing that you
had not heard before. Yes, hopefully, yes.
Perfect. None.
When the worms crawl in, the worms crawl out.
They'll eat your gods and spit them out.
And when your bones begin to rot, the worms remain, but you
do not. So don't ever laugh as the
hearse goes by. There's someday you'll be next
(00:21):
in life. And when death brings his cold
despair, ask yourself, will anyone?
Macabre may not be suitable for all audiences.
Listener discretion is advised. Welcome dear listeners to
another spine tingling episode of Live Laugh Lore, where the
(00:43):
laughs are haunting and the loreis chilling.
Tonight we have two very specialguests.
Hallie and Blair are friends from The Macabre, a dark history
podcast. Welcome back.
Hi. Welcome to our to our episode.
Thanks for having us. We're so happy to absolutely A
little bit of background, we hada crossover episode where these
(01:06):
ladies hosted us a while back and it was super fun.
We learned a lot about ourselvesand each other and that through
the game. Would you rather which yeah, you
do learn a lot about yourself inthat game.
So yeah, so we wanted. To go it.
It does. It feels like forever ago.
It was like February. Gosh, is it April?
(01:28):
I said, almost said last week. But I just realized.
Yeah, yeah, it's April. And I feel like March was like
the longest month of my life. Three years have passed since I
know. February.
So many moons. I don't know if you guys
remember, but the lights flickered.
Yeah, in my room. I asked my dad.
He said it happens all the time.I was like, OK, well, that makes
(01:51):
me feel good because I almost threw my headphones across the
room. I was so afraid.
Should I show them the the pig? The haunted pig?
I think we figured out who the voice is.
Yeah, let me, let me find. It I heard about this in your
episode, yeah. I mean, we keep talking.
About it. It sounds horrifying it.
Is horrific. Don't mind my sweatpants.
(02:14):
This was my dad's when he was a kid.
It terrified me as a child and my when my dad, he passed away a
little while back, I decided I'mgoing to take this and I don't
know why I did because I hated this guy as a child.
But I think, I think this is, I think this is the voice so.
(02:34):
I think we named him Crispy Bacon.
We. Did we did it and.
That is my mask on. So maybe I should keep him
included in the episode just like have him here so that way
he feels, yeah, he feels included in this one since he
wanted to interrupt us so many times last.
Time get his own camera and microphone.
(02:54):
Exactly. Put it up to him and figure out
what he's got. To say yes.
So to explain for the listeners who maybe have not heard the
previous episode, my mic was picking up a disembodied male
voice who was quite the jokestersounded like, which I thought to
myself, wow, that sounds like kind of my dad interrupting me
and making jokes. So I think it's this little guy
(03:18):
he's. Cute in a horrifying way.
Yeah, I mean if you stare into the eyes for too long.
It's like all on the same level as Chucky.
I feel like it's like yes. Yes, he's a terrifying little
guy. My dad never understood why he
scared me so much. He's like, it's a pig.
Why? Just why?
He has a hat. Why are you scared?
Like, have you looked into his eyes?
(03:40):
Right. He's not.
OK. The color of him is red.
Like, you know how sometimes when you cook pork, it's like
red. I don't know what kind of like.
That's what it looks like that color.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He looks like cooked.
Pork. OK, well, he's going to be angry
about that one probably, but I'msorry.
(04:00):
I take it back. He's he's like a pig.
Well, we've spent more time introducing crispy bacon than
you guys go back to to the originally scheduled
programming. So Hallie and Blair, would you
guys like to introduce yourselves and your podcast a
little bit more? Oh, who wants to go?
(04:21):
Do you want to go? Do you want me?
To go. I can go because you have the
more the more to say so just. Last.
I'm Blair Taylor and I am a Co host on the podcast Macabre Dark
History Podcast and it was very interesting how Hallie and I met
and how we got our podcast started and Hallie is the
(04:44):
mastermind behind this crazy project that we call our
podcasts and we haven't turned back.
Yeah, we're actually moving intoseason 3 pretty soon.
And I guess to sum it up, we really talk about an umbrella of
things that fall under the macabre.
(05:04):
So it could be history, because we know there's a lot of stories
that you can unearth there that history tried to bury.
It sometimes gets a little weird.
I mean, we talk about medical oddities, weird ways to treat
things that never actually worked, histories of studs, a
(05:25):
little bit of supernatural, a little bit of true crime.
So it's a lot, but we have a lotof fun doing it.
So we just really enjoy storytelling and just shocking
our audience. So that's what we do.
I have listened to the STD episode and it was quite
shocking. Yes, I can attest to that, yeah.
(05:48):
I was, I was also telling my family about the living in a
whale carcass thing and they were, they were just like, did
it work? And my dad has like arthritis
and he's like, did it? Did it work?
Like I'm willing to try it. Willing to do anything?
(06:08):
Oh my goodness. That's kind of us in a nutshell.
Yeah, Well, amazing. Well, we loved our time with you
last time. So very excited to host you guys
here today on our episode. And we have a very fun premise
for tonight. So you guys are going to be our
jury members in the Live Laugh Lore Witch Trials.
(06:33):
OK, sometimes I call myself a judgey Mick Judgerson.
This is your. This is your moment.
This is it. So, yeah.
So tonight you are the jury. And we will be presenting you
with tales that have been whispered through time, stories
of hauntings, curses and inexplicable events that defy
(06:54):
logic. And so your task as the jury
members slash judges, I guess. I don't know.
We'll make up the rules as we go.
You are tasked with separating fact from fiction, reality from
rumor, and the supernatural fromthe suspiciously well written
fabrication. Essentially, you're going to
tell us. Do you think it's real or is it
a hoax? OK, I love it.
(07:15):
I love it. Amazing.
OK, let the trials begin. I think I have the first story
for you. OK, so for our first story I
will be telling you about the Brown Lady of Raynham Hall.
I'm gonna move. You heard of this?
I have heard of this 10. My God.
Dang it. OK, we were really hoping.
(07:36):
I was like. I feel like they're gonna know
all these things. Yes, but I need a refresher so.
Perfect, perfect. OK, Good, good, good.
Yeah, we tried to pick some stories that were maybe lesser
known, but you guys are experts after all, so.
Should have. I don't know about that.
I wish that. I wish we were my dog.
(07:57):
So the Brown Lady of Raynham Hall, a famous ghost photograph
taken in 1936. Was it a genuine apparition or
could it be explained by photographic tricks or light
reflections? Today we journey to Raynham
Hall, a stately home in Norfolk,England.
Is it Norfolk? I always say these wrong.
Norfolk, Norfolk. Norfolk.
(08:19):
Fuck England and home to one of the most famous ghosts in the
United Kingdom, the Brown Lady of Rainham Hall.
This spectral figure has captured imaginations for nearly
two centuries with her chilling story and an iconic photograph
that has kept skeptics and believers debating ever since.
(08:40):
The legend of the Brown Lady begins with her identity,
Dorothy Walpole, sister to Robert Walpole, Britain's first
Prime Minister. So she's a big deal, some would
say. Dorothy married.
Robert Waffle. God, yeah.
I was waiting for the the shock and awe, but it's fine.
(09:05):
It's all good. I don't even know how to
pronounce the town, so I think we're fine.
Dorothy married Charles Townsend, the second Viscount
Townsend, a man infamous for hisfiery temper.
Love that. According to the tale, their
marriage took a tragic turn whenCharles discovered Dorothy's
alleged infidelity with Lord Wharton.
(09:28):
Scandal the drama? Love it.
In a cruel act of punishment, it's said that Charles confined
Dorothy to her room in Raynham Hall, forbidding her even the
comfort of seeing her own children.
There's also an alternative version of the story that paints
a different villain, slightly the Countess of Wharton, who
(09:48):
lured Dorothy to her home under the guise of hospitality, only
for Dorothy to be trapped there by her husband's orders.
Either way, her husband was involved.
Dorothy's life ended tragically at Raynham Hall in 1726, the
official cause recorded as smallpox.
Yet her restless spirit, clad ina brown brocade dress, is said
(10:10):
to linger in the halls of her former prison.
The first sighting of the Brown Lady dates back to Christmas of
1835. Colonel Loftus, a guest at
Random Hall, claimed to have seen the apparition while
retiring to his room. He described her wearing an
outdated brown dress. Rude and what haunted him were.
(10:30):
Very rude. Outdated.
All right. That's true.
What do you know about my dress?But what haunted him most were
her hollow, empty eye sockets. EW Gross.
The following year, Captain Frederick Marriott, a noted
novelist and friend of Charles Dickens.
(10:50):
We know who he is, right? Amazing.
I've heard of him. I've heard of his his works.
Yes, he had his own brush with the Brown Lady.
Marriott, determined to debunk the haunting as the work of
smugglers, spent several nights in the Hall's most haunted room.
But on his last night, as he roamed the dim corridor, he saw
(11:11):
her approaching, carrying a lamp.
In a moment of terror and fury, he fired his revolver at the
figure, only for the bullet to pass through the apparition,
embedding itself in the door behind her.
Sightings continued into the 20th century, including an
encounter in 1926 on the grand staircase by Lady Townsend's
(11:31):
son, but none were as significant or as controversial
as the events of September 19th,1936.
On that day, Captain Hubert C Provand, a photographer for
Country Life magazine, and his assistant Indre Shira, we're
we're photographing Raynham Hall's staircase.
(11:53):
According to their account, Shira is that.
Did I say that right? Is it photographing?
Photographing. I just saw the pig like I forgot
it was there. I'm sorry it.
Just gets gradually closer and closer.
To the. Yes, super.
Condo was there, I was. Like he's my Co host today.
(12:20):
You're fine. According to their account,
Shira noticed a misty form descending the steps and urged
Pravand to capture it. When the negative was developed,
the now famous image of the brown lady emerged and I am
going to share the image with you in the chat so you guys can
see the evidence if you will forthis case.
(12:42):
Oh yeah. Oh.
Yeah. The photo, published in Country
Life and later in Life magazine,created an international
sensation. Paranormal investigator Harry
Price interviewed the photographers and found their
story convincing, describing theimage as genuine.
(13:02):
However, skeptics have proposed alternative explanations.
Some argue that the image resulted from grease on the lens
or an accidental double exposure.
Magician John Booth replicated asimilar image using a bed sheet
and clever photography. Others suggest the figure
resembles a statue of the VirginMary superimposed on the
(13:23):
staircase. Which if you look at a statue of
the Virgin Mary, it does look like the same shape.
I will give them that. Despite these theories, the
photograph remains one of the most iconic paranormal images of
all time. As the years past, sightings of
the Brown Lady have become rare,leading some to speculate that
her spirit may have moved on to other nearby estates such as
(13:44):
Houghton Hall or Sandringham House.
I don't know why those would be significant to her, but she's
traveling. Good for her, good for her.
Yes, yet her legacy endures not only in the chilling tales of
her appearances, but in the way she reminds us of the human
stories behind these hauntings of love, betrayal, and tragedy.
(14:04):
The end. So what do you guys think?
Is it real or is it a hoax? Who wants to start?
I mean. OK, I got to go back to fucking
Colonel. What's his nuts because?
The. Audacity.
I'm sorry but if you're going tobe scared at something and then
(14:27):
after be like but that dress. Though, But that dress girl.
Yeah. OK, come on, Colonel.
That that, yeah, we're out of the jury.
It's an important note, yes, Yeah.
Can you trust a man with that poor fashion taste?
(14:48):
No. Good thing he's not on this jury
anymore. Clearly he has some things to
say. I am also on the fence about
this. I kind of lean towards the fact
that it could be real. Just I've looked at this thing
for years on and off and I kind of go back and forth, but at
(15:11):
this point I'm going to say it'sreal.
Love that, and we love we can always change our minds.
Yeah. It's an open case forever.
We'll never close it. Sometimes it's it's fun to just
give into it, you know? Exactly.
Let it take hold. Exactly.
Yes. So I'm gonna I'm gonna say this
(15:33):
particular photo. I don't know that I believe the
photo per SE, OK, Because we're talking about this time frame
where spiritualism is a big thing and everybody's trying to
make headlines. And this was in two big
different, you know, publications including life.
(15:55):
So I don't know that I necessarily believe this photo.
And then the previous guy was a friend of Charles Dickens, who
was an author who wrote ghost stories.
So I don't know if I believe that guy necessarily either
because he would have heard the story, been curious about it.
Is there any evidence of the bullet through the door?
(16:15):
I looked it up and I could not find anything about that.
So maybe they replaced the door,maybe it never happened, I don't
know. Yeah.
Now do I believe that this storyabout the lady could be true
100%? You know, I just think some of
the stuff that happened afterwards where they're trying
to prove it, maybe not necessarily the most reliable,
(16:36):
but the story itself I do want to believe because, yes,
multiple people have had the same sighting and describe her
in a certain kind of way, which is consistent.
Yeah. So that's kind of my take on it.
I want to believe the base storyis true and that the evidence
they try to provide maybe is notso much.
(16:57):
Honestly, that was that was kindof my take as well, especially
seeing side by side images of the Virgin Mary and how it it
looks very similar to that. Already spot on.
It's pretty spot on, but I feel like maybe the sightings were
true, but the evidence, like yousaid, that they've tried to give
(17:18):
with this photograph just was a way of, you know, making this
story more. Sensationalizing it.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Caroline, do you have an opinion?
We're part of the jury now all of a sudden.
I too think it's real again, thephoto I'm like, it's like too
perfect of an apparition or apparition to.
(17:41):
Our. To be real, I think, but I mean,
why wouldn't there be a ghost there?
I I don't have any reason to saythat there.
Wouldn't exactly. And also on a grand staircase.
Dramatic. Who am I to say she doesn't
exist? Who am I to say?
And I bet she looks fabulous in her brown dress.
(18:05):
Oh heck yeah. My goodness, yes, let's give the
girl a break. Also, what is specific
description or something that's not real?
Yeah, right. Like an out.
Oh, but she was wearing an outdated dress.
Yeah. Yeah, she was terrifying.
She had no eyeballs. But also.
That dress. That dress Embarrassing.
(18:26):
Yeah, the no eyeballs part. Is horrifying.
Exactly, exactly. I just.
Feel like I would have been flexed more on that, yeah.
Exactly, just get her to say thesame thing.
I don't think I would have looked anywhere but those eye
holes. She could have been naked.
And blue, I don't know. Oh my naked.
I wouldn't have known it. Oh, my goodness, yes.
(18:50):
But this man, he was a storyteller.
So he, he made sure to get all of the details for us.
Thank goodness for him. Oh, yeah.
So I think we can chalk this up as a.
We want to believe that this is real.
Yeah. Maybe some of it is a hoax, but
we want to believe the root of it is real.
You have been judged. You.
Have been judged, yes. Sometimes it's a Gray area,
(19:15):
right? That happens in court, I think,
no. Gavel.
Yeah. There you go, guilty.
Perfect. Guilty.
Guilty. That's a ghost.
OK. All right.
Caroline, would you like to tellyour story?
(19:36):
Yes. Oh, I'm nervous.
I don't know why. I'll take a step.
Through that court. OK, so I'm doing the story of
the Cottingly fairies. Have you heard of these?
No, not me. Is it the?
Photo with the kid it is. I was right, OK.
(19:57):
Cool. OK, so this is the curious tale
of the Cottingly Fairies, which began in the summer of 1917.
When 9 year old Francis Griffithand her mother returned home to
England from South Africa to stay with some extended family,
it was in Kottingling, West Yorkshire, England.
(20:18):
Polly and Arthur Wright and their 16 year old daughter Elsie
lived in a small wooded valley which ran through the
Kottingling Beck. Where the Kottingling Beck
flowed through this area, which is like a stream essentially, So
it's a beautiful, picturesque stream that flows over rocky
outcrops overshadowed by trees. It quickly became the favorite
(20:42):
spot for Elsie and Francis to explore together.
But their parents got upset thatthey kept coming back to the
house soaking wet after playing in the stream.
And so when confronted, the girls replied that they went
there to see the fairies. Of course, the family didn't
believe them, so Elsie borrowed her father's camera and went to
(21:02):
find proof. Now I don't know about you, but
I've have you guys been to the United Kingdom, like England or
Scotland? OK.
No. So I've been to Ireland and I
feel like it is the most magicalplace and you could never tell
me that fairies are not real. After all, fairies are real.
(21:22):
And if I'm traveling through Cottingly Beck or a stream or a
wooded area, I'm going to be like, yeah, there's fairies.
I used to think there was fairies in my backyard in
Raleigh, NC. They.
Probably were. Yeah.
So anyway, OK, where was I? Within an hour, the girls were
(21:44):
back with proof of the fairies. So Elsie's father, Arthur, had a
special interest in photography and Elsie had used his camera to
take photos of these fairies. Her father took the plate into
his own dark room to be developed, and the image that
was created shows Frances with her head slightly tilted and
gazing off to the right of the photographer.
(22:06):
In front of her were several winged figures dressed in
elegant clothing that seemed to be dancing.
Arthur was suspicious, but laterthat year in September, Elsie
came back with yet another platethat showed Elsie holding her
hand out to a gnome like winged figure.
But Arthur was still not convinced.
(22:26):
Elsie's mother Polly had a little bit of a different
opinion. So she was very interested in
the theosophical movement. The Theo.
Theo. Oh my gosh, how do you say this?
Theosophists. Yeah, Theosophists.
There are individuals that are part of a spiritual movement.
It was founded in the late 19th century.
(22:47):
It's an eclectic blend of esoteric teachings, philosophy
and science, and they focus on the concept of universal
brotherhood, and they study the hidden laws of nature.
So one of their key beliefs was that humankind was kind of going
under this process of transformation, and that would
lead eventually to the perfection of the species.
(23:09):
So she took a photo, this photo of Elsie with the fairies, to
one of the lectures, which actually the subject of this
lecture happened to be fairy life.
And that images caught the attention of society's members,
especially a man named Edward Gardner, who was one of the
leading members of the society. Edward believed that these
(23:33):
images were proof that a great metaphysical change was in the
works. The photographs were examined by
a photographic expert who confirmed that the images were
authentic of what was in front of the camera, but not
necessarily confirming that the fairies were real themselves.
Gardner Gardner used the images in his lectures and later began
(23:57):
selling prints. The images appeared in a
spiritualist magazine that caught the eye of another man
named Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who was writing a Do you know
him? Merch unfamiliar?
I don't know. He was writing a piece on
(24:19):
fairies for Strand magazine and asked the girls for permission
to use the photos, Conan Doyle wrote.
The recognition of their existence will jolt the material
20th century mind out of its heavy ruts in the mud, and it
will make it admit that there isa glamour and a mystery to life.
Having discovered this, the world would not find it so
(24:40):
difficult to accept the spiritual message, supported by
physical facts, which has already been so convincingly put
before it. Following this publication, it
went on to be published in Australia and in the US.
The images achieved worldwide notoriety and attracted
widespread skepticism. In 1921, a second set of images
(25:01):
were published and debate continued on for decades
regarding the authenticity of the photos.
So I'm going to show you the. Photos and for those listening,
we will also be posting. We'll be posting this online.
So I actually remember looking these up with my sister when we
(25:21):
were younger because I think we wanted fairies to be real.
And we saw these photos and we were like, Oh my.
Gosh, no, they're really cool. So there was some speculation
that they could be, you know, Prince or this could be doctored
in some sort. But keep in mind this is pretty
early in the 20th century, so obviously Photoshop is not a
(25:44):
thing. So this sparked a lot of debate,
thinking that the girls had set up some hopes, but the girls
maintained that these were real fairies in the back.
These were taken when. 1917. I find it interesting that the
(26:05):
the fairy in the first picture that you sent, she's dressed in
very like 19 like era specific attire with the like haircut.
Yeah, very flapper girl. Flapper Fairy.
Right. Which I mean, maybe she's just
keeping up with the trends, but also like, could she be a doll,
a little like figurine or something?
(26:27):
What about like a magazine cut? I mean a magazine cut out or
something. She looks very two-dimensional,
kind of, yeah. The second one though does not
look 2 dimensional, No. All I can think is like maybe
it's a doll or maybe it's a fairy.
I. Hope it's a fairy?
Maybe. So what do we think?
(26:49):
It's a hoax or 'cause I I think it's a hoax, yeah.
Just based on the photos, I'm going to say hoax.
So this one actually does have an answer.
In 1983, Elsie finally confessedto the images being a hoax.
So they were actually copied from magazines it was an image
(27:13):
from. Yep.
I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, you hit the nail on the head.
It was from Princess Mary's giftbook, which was published in
1914, and essentially they had traced them, redrawn them, and
they had been held up right using hat pins.
Oh. To the two-dimensional, yeah.
(27:35):
And so this one was the second set of photos.
And again, for everyone listening, I'm going to post
this on our social media. But this one, to me looks, you
know, I mean, it kind of gives it away that they're not real.
Yeah. So the first one, if you look at
that one closely, it's sitting on like a leaf or something, you
(27:58):
know, like for more support. I mean, this also seems like
something that I would definitely do as a young girl,
not even like. And then I would be so mad at my
mom. Like mom, why did you share
this? Now I have to keep this lie
going, like now it's embarrassing.
(28:22):
I can't say it's fake. I was just trying to pull a
prank and now here I am. Yep.
Oh my goodness. Yeah.
Who took the photo? Then the girls took the photos
of each other. Yep.
So this I believe it was Elsie who took the photo.
She apparently was pretty good at doctoring photos of.
(28:42):
She had a little bit of a talentfor it, just like her father
did. So.
Makes sense they were curious about that too, since that was a
hobby of their father's, you know?
I didn't know, she confessed. When was that?
1993 So she was, She was. Like.
(29:03):
Well, I'm about to go. I might as well tell.
Deathbed confession. Oh my God.
That is wild. I wonder how much money they
made off of that. Yeah, 'cause they were selling.
Gosh. Yeah, probably so much money, I
wonder. If anybody like sued once, she
confessed. Well, Edward Gardner, he
(29:26):
literally, till the day he died,he believed that they were real.
He would not let it go. Oh.
Good for him. I feel bad.
Yeah. I love a man who believes in
fairies. Right.
Want to believe? Sometimes you just want to
believe, you know? Exactly.
There are worse things in this world to believe in.
Let's. Let's believe in fairies.
(29:50):
Yeah. Hold on to that, Edward.
I'll support you. OK, so that has been proven here
and elsewhere to be a hoax. Sounds like perfect.
Yeah. But like.
I don't know. I don't think fairies are real.
I think I remember seeing these as a kid and me and my sister
were like Oh my gosh, fairies are real.
(30:13):
Yeah, and I will back up what Caroline said, too.
I've been to Ireland and it's literally the most beautiful.
Like even just sit standing in aparking lot.
I'm like, magical things have happened here.
I. Just know it so beautiful.
I I fell asleep on the bus on the way to Galway and I woke up
and I was like, I was like, Oh my.
(30:34):
God, it's like so beautiful. I've never seen anything like
it. I was like, what?
So I do have a question, this may be a little bit off topic
but maybe not. Do you?
Are you familiar with the topic of Ley lines?
Oh my goodness, I remember listening to a podcast episode
(30:55):
about it a long time ago. Basically, there are these
invisible lines called Ley linesthat cross all over the globe at
certain points. And I'm just curious if you
looked at a map of the Ley lines, if in Ireland, you would
see that pass through or crossover because there are
certain places. I feel like Mount Shasta is one
(31:17):
of the places where I had an experience and it was like
overwhelmingly emotional and it's a spiritual Mecca for that
reason. So I'd just be curious to see if
Ireland has those. But they do.
There are, they do. It looks, yeah, looks like there
are. But I don't know if it was where
I was. I mean, I think part of it was
(31:40):
just us being Americans finally going somewhere that has like
history and. I guess, yeah.
And it would love to go. It feels magical.
But yeah, it looks like there's quite a quite a few.
It's more in like Northern Ireland it looks like.
That's really cool. Be interested, it's a good idea.
(32:00):
Explore that a little bit more. Yeah.
OK, well, whole new rabbit hole for us to dive into, I know.
There's something going on therefor sure, 'cause it is.
It is, truly. Magical.
Yes. OK.
Are we ready for our third case?All right.
Bring it to learn it, bring out the thought I gotta do.
(32:22):
My love again. There you go that like.
That was that reverberated. It's perfect.
Sorry. Oh, I love it.
OK, so this one is the miracle of the sun.
Have you guys heard of this one?No.
OK, perfect. So this one has, it's gained
notoriety not so much because ofthe amount of proof, but because
(32:47):
of the number of people that it affected and who believe in
this. So in 1917, thousands of people
in Fatima, Portugal claimed to witness the sun dancing in the
sky. Was it a divine miracle or could
it be explained by optical illusions or mass hallucination?
(33:08):
We'll find. Out.
All right, it's October 13th, 1917.
A crowd of 70,000 people gather in a muddy field in Fatima,
Portugal. They've come in response to a
prophecy made by three shepherd children, Lucia Santos and her
cousins Francisco and Jacinta Marto.
(33:30):
The children claimed that the Virgin Mary, whom they called
the Lady of the Rosary, promisedto perform a miracle On this
date so that all may believe. So.
Again, we're listening to children, so keep that in mind
in this story as well. What followed that day has
become one of the most debated religious phenomena in history.
(33:50):
Witnesses reported a series of extraordinary solar phenomena.
After a period of rain, the sun emerged as a spinning disc in
the sky. It cast multi colored lights,
zigzagged towards the earth, andthen returned to its original
position. Many claimed that their wet
clothes and the muddy ground around them dried
(34:11):
instantaneously after this happened.
However, not everyone saw the same thing.
Some witnesses only observed radiant colors, while others,
including skeptics, saw nothing unusual at all.
Newspapers of the time, including secular and skeptical
outlets, documented these claims, adding to the intrigue.
Despite the varying accounts, one thing was certain.
(34:32):
Something extraordinary happenedthat left an indelible mark on
those present. They actually have a clipping
picture of a clipping of this event and you can kind of get a
idea of just how many people were gathered around based on
this prophecy that these children had.
(34:53):
Wow. Told everyone of Wow.
Yes, quite a few. Some would say.
Oh. My gosh.
Yes, also I loved the outfits. Too.
It was really cool to see, like what they were wearing in 1917.
(35:13):
Very cool, right? That outdated brown dress?
You know, such an outdated browndress.
Thank God the Colonel isn't here.
Thank God he'd be ripping them to shreds.
He would. All right, so shortly after the
event, the Catholic Church beganinvestigating.
Bishop Jose Desalva declared thephenomenon worthy of belief in
(35:36):
1930, paving the way for official devotion to Our Lady of
Fatima. Even Pope Pius the 12th claimed
to witness a similar solar eventin 1950 while walking in the
Vatican Gardens. When I read that the first time,
I was like, so he just wanted tocopy and just say like, well, I
had, I saw it too, but you guys weren't there.
(35:57):
So it's just me. It was just, it was just, it was
just for me. Father John Demarke, an Italian
priest, spent years interviewingwitnesses.
He concluded that the event could not be explained by mass
hallucination or hysteria, citing that the sheer number and
diversity of accounts, includingreports from skeptics and non
(36:17):
believers. Of course, not everyone agrees
on the miraculous nature of the event.
Critics argue that prolonged staring at the sun could have
caused optical illusions. Atmospheric conditions,
including dust clouds, might have explained the visual
phenomena as well. Scientists like Augusta Meeson
(36:37):
suggest that retinal effects caused by sun gazing could
create the illusion of movement and color changes, and others
propose psychological factors such as the power of suggestion
influenced by the crowd's perceptions.
Which I think that one is a verygood argument.
If I traveled all this way basedon a prophecy and nothing
(36:58):
happened, but some people are saying it happened, I really
would want to believe that I didnot just waste my time.
Right. And so I might lean into it a
little bit. It's kind of like when you, when
you like, went to Jesus camp growing up.
You know what I mean? It's a.
Universal experience cause everyone's crying 'cause.
(37:19):
They're like, Jesus touched me. And so you're like, oh, OK.
And then you start crying because you think, but then
you're singing head. What's wrong with me?
Nothing. 'S gone.
Oh my gosh. No, no.
I had an. Experience Pretty pretty
universal I think actually, which is a.
Sad part. Oh my God, everyone.
(37:42):
Oh my God. OK, yeah, that brought back so
much. Stuff I tried to bury, yeah.
I will never forget that. I was like, something's wrong
with me. I don't feel anything.
Yes, I remember there was a likeprayer group at one of these
Jesus camps and there was one girl who she was like, I, I
(38:03):
don't want to say my prayer out loud, it's too personal.
But Jesus knows my prayer. And so then of course, I had to
be like, 'cause I couldn't thinkof anything to pray about.
So it's like Jesus knows my, my prayer as well.
And I, well, I was going to carry that to my grave, but I
had nothing. He didn't know what my prayer
was. I didn't know what my prayer
(38:23):
was. None of us knew.
But I couldn't. I had to perform.
You had to. Perform embarrassing.
When you put on the spot like that, it's like exactly.
Like well, I things are pretty good right now.
I don't have anything to right now but.
Of like I'm God I hope I get a boyfriend suit.
That's probably my prayer. I'm 14 years old.
(38:44):
Yeah, exactly. Well, someone kissed.
Me. Oh.
My God, yes, yes, exactly. Yes.
OK, so but what about the claim that the event was seen miles
away from Fatima? Could it have been a localized
atmospheric anomaly, or is this evidence of something more?
It was supposedly seen in the region as a whole in that area.
(39:08):
For believers, the miracle of the sun is a testament to divine
intervention, fulfilling Mary's promise to the shepherd
children. The event's timing, coinciding
with historical milestones like the end of World War One and the
rise of communism, adds to its spiritual significance.
Spirituality was on the rise at this time.
(39:29):
Theologians, theologians, theologians.
Theologians. Theologians, thank you.
OK, Was this the same word, Caroline, that you got stuck
with too? No no, it was close.
Mine was Theosophics or something like that.
It's probably the same exact thing though.
Yes, yes, that in photography and photographing.
(39:53):
I know going my pianos is actually hard.
Yeah, my goodness, why do we have to make English so hard,
right? Anyways.
Theologians like Father Andrew Consent argue that miracles
often use natural phenomena to convey divine messages.
In this view, the event at Fatima was not just a miracle of
faith, but also a call to reflection and repentance.
(40:16):
So what do we make of the miracle of sun?
Was it divine intervention, A remarkable natural occurrence,
or a trick of the mind? What do you guys, what do you
say? This is a.
Blair what? Yeah.
I think it's two things. I think it's natural phenomena
(40:38):
and I think it's trick of the mind.
Like we talked about power of suggestion is very heavy in
everything that we do. And especially after it rains or
you have weird situation with weather where you're you're
seeing illusions like when it's too hot in the summertime and
you're driving down the road, itlooks like the the road is water
(41:01):
and stuff like that. I think that in this case, this
is probably what was going on. And then, like you said, when
people were staring at the sun for too long and they're like,
well, I mean, I'm not even staring at my ring light right
now, but if I close my eyes or look around, I'm seeing, you
know, purple, you know, light rings.
Oh yeah, like when you close your eyes.
And you see the. Yeah.
(41:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's the point. So I think it was those things.
And then like I said, too travelling and you're like, I
didn't see anything. And then, well, I did see
something well. Maybe I saw something.
Yeah, Gary next to me saw it. So I saw it, you know.
Now I feel like a lone Jesus. Knows my prayer.
(41:43):
I saw it. Yeah.
Holly, what do you think? Well, this was supposed to be a
religious event that was happening, correct?
Like people came to this area for this religious event.
We do have to consider the time frame and World War One, and
(42:03):
then all the people that were supporting it are also religious
figures. So I feel like there was maybe a
different agenda kind of pushingthis idea, a little mass
hysteria and looking at the sun for a little too long.
I'm gonna be the the skeptic, the negative naysayer in the
(42:24):
group. I would agree with both of you.
I also will I must present I do have a bias.
I'm not a religious person so I am not as quick to lean towards
that side, but I would like to know more about the three
shepherd children that had this prophecy.
Like where did that come from? Who and how long have they been
(42:46):
talking about it? Exactly how did they get 70,000
people? Like, do you think that they
maybe stared at the sun for too long?
And then they were like, let's, like, how old were they?
Were they 4? Or were they like 12?
And they're like, let's play a prank on everyone.
That I don't know, right? But they, they said that they
knew the date of when something would happen, that the Virgin
(43:09):
Mary was going to do some sort of miracle On this date.
They didn't know what it was, but they knew who and when.
So supposedly. Yeah, well, I feel like to this
time frame people would have been looking for any kind of a
(43:29):
distraction and hope. Yeah.
True. And a lot of people who are
religious, they cling to that because they are looking for
miracles and and hope and good things.
And I mean, just have to think about what was going on at that
time and how terrible it would have been.
You know, so something like thiswould have been all over
(43:50):
newspapers and. True, that was one of the points
that was called out actually forthe fairies.
It was that during this time people were, you know, going
through a lot there was a war and there was a lot of stress
and people were looking kind of for more fantasy like to
(44:10):
romanticize life a little bit. And so believing in fairies kind
of takes the your mind off of well, we could die any day
because of all, you know, something could happen.
So right, you know. And also, I think that this is
one of those instances where it hurts no one if it was true,
like it seemed to help a lot of people in this moment.
(44:33):
So yeah, hurts no one at all to believe that it's true or not,
especially, Yeah, in this time frame, that makes that makes a
lot of sense. So I like to believe in fairies
because I don't want to deal with, you know, real life.
So I get it, yeah. Escapism, right?
Exactly, yes, 100%. I know that that's what's
(44:53):
happening, but you know right I.Believe in a.
Lot I We have these podcasts. Yeah.
Exactly. Yep, that's why we're here
today. Yes.
Oh my. Goodness, escapism has saved us
all. Exactly.
So I think case closed on that, probably mass, a little bit of a
(45:13):
mass hysteria moment, but also kind of a beautiful story at the
end of the day. Yeah, yeah.
All right, I think we have one more.
All right, we have one more. So this is the dancing play, the
dancing plague. Which one?
Which 115? 1518, Yeah, more than one.
(45:35):
I like this one. OK, so you guys know.
OK. All right, straight, everyone
knows I'm. Excited.
So hundreds of people in Strasbourg danced uncontrollably
for weeks. Was it a case of mass
possession? Or could it have been a form of
(45:55):
mass hysteria or a reaction to contaminated food?
In July 1518, residents of the city of Strasbourg in Germany
were struck, which is now in Germany were struck by a sudden
and seemingly uncontrollable urge to dance.
The hysteria started when a woman known as Frau Trophia, I
(46:18):
think I'm saying that right, raninto the street and began
silently twisting, twirling and shaking.
I too, have done. That was when I've had a little
too much. Relatable.
It's like when I had too much todrink and Lady Gaga comes on.
I'm like. Exactly.
Listen, somebody has to start the dance on the dance floor and
(46:40):
let it be her, Yeah. Heck yeah.
She seemed unable to stop and kept dancing until she collapsed
from exhaustion. After resting, she began the
frenzied activity. Once again, she kept up this
solo dance, the solo dance a thon, for nearly a week, and
during that time, three dozen others joined in.
(47:01):
They all kept going past the point of injury.
There was no explanation at the time for the phenomenon, and
local physicians blamed it on hot blood.
Maybe that's. What that's?
There's a cure for that. You read my mind there.
You go. They suggested that they simply
(47:23):
had to dance and shake the feveraway.
OK. The civic and religious leaders
theorized that more dancing was the solution, and they arranged
for Guild halls for the dancers to gather with musicians to
accompany the dancing. By August, the epidemic had
claimed as many as 400 victims. A number of them actually died
(47:47):
from exhaustion and then finallyin early September, the mania
stopped. This event was thoroughly
documented and it was the last of actually several outbreaks
across Europe. Other events had taken place
between the 10th and 16th centuries.
A better known outbreak occurredin 1374 across the Rand River.
(48:09):
The explanation at the time was that St.
Vitus, a Catholic St. Who Pius, 16th century Europeans
believed had the power to curse people with the dancing plague,
specifically people that did notfollow him devoutly.
When combined with the horrors of disease and famine, both of
which were were tearing through Strasbourg in 1518, the Saint
(48:31):
Vitus superstition may have triggered a little bit of stress
induced hysteria and cause some of the dancing or he was truly
cursing people. Other theories go on that the
dancers were actually part of a religious cult or they ingested
a specific mold called ergot, which I'm sure we all are very
familiar with. Ergot.
(48:53):
We all know what? Yeah.
What the hell went on with that?This is a type of mold that
grows on damp rye and it produces spasms and
hallucinations. So anyone listening that does
not know what ergot is, that is the main theory behind the Salem
witch trials and all of the craziness that happened there,
(49:14):
that it was not witchcraft, it was mold.
So. Yeah.
So. What do you think?
Ergot. Ergot.
Ergot yeah, I think it, I think it's definitely that.
And then maybe that also was also a little bit of power of
suggestion. After a while, it's like, well,
if they're gonna friend do this,you know, I can act weird for
(49:36):
once and nobody will, you know, I've made for it.
So. They were bored back then.
They. Were have you guys seen the
videos of God? I'm getting real.
You know what? Whatever the videos of the women
who claimed that after they tookthe COVID vaccine, they shook
uncontrollably. Yes.
(49:58):
No. It was proven false, but yeah,
one of them like said that they were like forced to walk
backwards now. Like they could only walk
backwards. Or.
Something and like more people kind of came, jumped on board
and it was. All over Facebook.
If you what was what was really interesting was that they were
shaking, but their camera was absolutely still no place.
(50:22):
Interesting. Yeah, I.
Feel like it's kind of like. Yeah, yeah, I feel like the fact
that this, the dancing plagues have happened multiple times
throughout history kind of makesit a little bit more credible
because, you know, I mean, that's a big deal.
I think that just the time frame, food quality and all
(50:46):
those kinds of things would comeinto play.
So yeah, I want to say this. This is this would be the one
that I believe the most so far out of all the stories.
Yeah. Definitely agreed.
I feel like too, like maybe thatfirst woman who started the
dance craze, maybe she ingested the ergot, but I feel like not
(51:07):
all of the people probably. No.
Had ingested that like the mass hysteria like you were talking
about I think. Maybe she just had anxiety like
sometimes before I'm about to have a panic attack I have to
get up and do jumping jacks because I feel like I'm going to
jump out of my skin if I don't move.
That's a good way to like, you know that.
(51:29):
Yeah. Yeah, I should try that next
time. The anxiety never went away for
her. I don't maybe it was really bad
anxiety. I mean, she thought a priest was
cursing her. I mean, maybe, right.
That's a lot of. Stress.
That is a lot of stress, yes. And they had disease and famine.
Right. She's probably like, well, if
I'm going to go out by as well. Exactly.
(51:49):
I'm going to get my name in the papers.
I'm. Going to get that old razzle
dazzle in before I. Can they all razzle dazzle?
Shake, shake that money maker. Jazz hands.
Jazz hands. Hot to be Rachel.
Oh my goodness. What is that form of dancing
called that Liza Minnelli used to do all the time?
(52:11):
And it was like the very like like.
All I can think of was cabaret, but I think it's.
It's like named after the choreographer.
Or something. And I'll look it up.
What's her name? She's on SNL and she does a skit
about it where she's like tryingto turn off a lamp, but she has
to dance. And like it took forever because
(52:32):
she never makes it to the lamp. She's like, oh, let me go over
here. And Justin Wig.
That's her. I love.
Her the chitter plot, I love her.
I don't know. No.
It was. A style of of choreography.
I'm going to remember it the minute that we hang up here.
(52:52):
That would honestly be such a good I was thinking that'd be a
good S and I'll get to like redothe dancing plague but have like
Liza Minnelli come in or someonedressed as Liza Minnelli.
That would be awesome. That would be such a guys.
I literally wish I was on SNL because I write down these
things. I'm like, that'd be a good.
(53:13):
SNL stand regular. It's Bob Fosse.
So. Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah.
Love it. Her use of his hands.
Signature movement. Oh, my goodness.
I mean, you could really test out a lot of different dance
(53:33):
styles without any any judgementin that moment.
So I guess that's that's great. The original flash mop.
Literally. Yeah, we can add that to our
weirdest ways to die. It is a weird way to die.
Very weird, I didn't know that it happened more than once too.
Like when was the most recent time that it happened?
(53:55):
That was the last 1 I think. That was the last one.
They said that that one was the last one.
That was when they said, you know what, enough with the
ergot. We're done with that.
It's causing problems. There's at least 5 documented
cases. Crazy.
Yeah, that's insane. Yeah, sure, be fun at first.
(54:20):
I mean, yeah. At first.
And then I'd be exhausted. I'm like, yeah, I felt like kind
of. Pretending how do you not pass
out after a certain point? Because if you've ever been to a
dance club and you dance for like 2 hours straight, that's a
that's like exhausting. I don't know, like keep going.
I kept thinking about Gilmore Girls when they do the 24 hour
(54:41):
dance competition on Gilmore Girls.
That's what, yes. No.
Were they on some other drugs though?
Because you think about like, uppers would keep you going, but
you'd still have to eat. And like, they didn't even take
potty breaks, right? They didn't stop to pee or do
anything. I don't want to think about the.
(55:03):
State of that dance floor. Oh my goodness, whole new level
stomping in something. Yeah, so don't drop it low
because you'll find things you don't want to see.
Yeah, like No Hands by Flocka. Flocka Flame came on.
They're like you can't. Stop.
(55:28):
Oh my God. And imagine being the people
they asked to come and play music first.
Exactly. They're just, they're like, are
they ever gonna fucking? Like, Can you imagine?
They're like literally suffering.
They can't stop dancing. And then they're like, bring in
the music and it's like. Maybe music is not the best
idea. Yeah, please.
(55:51):
The poor band is just like. What are these like the band
eventually join in, like, right?I don't know.
Were they talking to each other while this was happening?
I, I would love to know more, but I guess.
Well, those were our stories fortoday.
You guys were a wonderful jury. I think this will go down in
(56:14):
history. We've answered all of the
questions that remained for these stories.
And yeah, I think we can all agree unanimously that fairies
are real. And I think that's, that should
be our, our last, you know, message coming out of this.
Birds aren't real, but fairies are.
Yes, birds are government drones.
(56:36):
Fairies are real. You heard it here first.
Yes, they just can't be photographed.
That's the trick. Like.
Exactly right. Yes.
They wanted us to believe in birds so much that they created
bird watching, you know, as a hobby.
They were like this. Look at them.
They'll believe it. Now let's make that.
(56:57):
Was my COVID hobby actually. Let's make it an I actually love
bird watching, I really do. I love birds, but.
I was like, I'm going to learn all the backyard birds.
And I sat there like. That's awesome.
Well, that was all that we had today.
Thank you so much for joining us.
It was so much fun as as always.Yes, thank you for having us.
(57:20):
This was so fun. Love it.
Yes, hopefully you guys did hearat least one new thing that you
had not heard before. Yes, hopefully, yes.
Perfect. None.
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