Maker That Money S2 Ep1: Where To Go From Here?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
good day happy September everyone we are

(00:04):
back maker that money podcast the
podcast where we talk about turning your
hobby into your Joby I am your host
Pooch of repcord with me as always my
number two my compatriot my my rock my
everything Mr Andrew mayhal of 3D gloop
good morning Andrew how are you today

(00:25):
good morning Pooch I'm doing great how
are you oh it's so good to be back I
miss being in the chair and uh in a
minute miss seeing all of our familiar
faces in the chat shout out to Liz and
Grant from 3D Musketeers and K2 Kevin
good to see you hutchman Makerspace
awesome to see some familiar faces if
you are tuning in for the first time uh

(00:48):
we record this live just about every
Friday 9 A.M Pacific time uh this
podcast we are starting season two we've
officially are returning from our summer
break I hope everybody had a good summer
and it's back at the school time right
uh my kids just went back to school and
uh for those of you that have kids maybe
you're just getting back in the swing of

(01:08):
things as well so uh you know welcome
back to the school year uh we got a lot
of exciting stuff coming up for this
season and things to talk about but I
thought today we'd get back to Our Roots
do a little bit of an update in terms of
like all the exciting stuff that
happened over the summer we had a couple
cool events that we went to that we need
to talk about

(01:29):
uh um business happenings
uh but again what we like to talk about
we are very passionate about uh being
makers being entrepreneurs and the
intersection of those two things so we
talk about what it takes the realities
of of what it is uh to take your your
passion your hobby and really try to

(01:51):
make a go of it right
um so uh show of hands in the audience
if you have started trying to make money
in the audience I say in the chat right
now a great way to engage with us we
also have our call in line uh if if
people are brave enough to uh get on get
in the hot seat get on the hot seat and

(02:12):
be vocal and ask questions but we love
conversation about maker
entrepreneurship but show of hands
have you started a venture from your
hobby tell me if you are or maybe you
already have or you have been for years
so say I've been at it for this many
years or I've got an Etsy store or I'm
thinking about doing it we want to hear
about what you're doing

(02:35):
um if you're jumping in on season two uh
we did something like 60 something
episodes of season one and season one
was kind of um it was more than a year
worth of content we didn't really kind
of do the summer break and it was a
interesting mashup but this seems like a
good way to go about it I think having a
on season and then we take a little
summer break
which which is good to recharge and you

(02:58):
know kind of yeah put our heads down and
get to work on some of the things sits
up oh we're slipping right
um interestingly enough in my business
and I don't know how you you know you
can see speak to yours uh but
seasonally uh summers are always our
Slow Time right yes and so inherently

(03:19):
people might think well that's that
seems like a better time to be doing
passion projects and talking you know
podcasts and stuff like that but for us
um I really had to put the nose of the
drawing Stone because it's like no we're
fighting for dollars here uh and so I
had to be a bit more focused in the
business and kind of some strategy stuff
and so it was good for me to

(03:40):
kind of get a get a new plan in place
um what do you see how seasonally
affected are you guys yeah so you know I
think yeah I think anything you know in
the kind of maker hobbyist space
um you know there are seasonal uh you
know times if you will uh we definitely
see a decrease in order volume and

(04:03):
revenue uh you know some other kpis you
know they typically fall a little bit
lower uh in the summer months just we we
kind of attached it to people out doing
things enjoying their summer uh kids are
out of school the people taking
vacations dollars are going towards
activities instead of projects
um yeah you know in kind of this space

(04:24):
yeah so yeah that's yeah and I think
it's it's good to have an awareness of
your customer base and your industry and
um you know one of my suppliers is a is
a lumber supplier and they're they're
the opposite they are Gang Busters uh in

(04:45):
the summer because they're tied very
closely to the building industry right
yeah that makes a lot of sense so that's
when they're building and all that stuff
but then in you know in the winter and
stuff they're lean so they're looking
for for
um you know different opportunities and
what's kind of cool about that is when
you start to you know plan around these
things like you can realize like there's
more opportunities to be had there's

(05:05):
better deals to be had if you are
looking at your vendors perhaps and
saying like what's their seasonal effect
and and how eager are they for this
business right it's all supply and
demand oh absolutely at the end of the
day and so it's like it's a lot easier
for me to get concessions in the slow
times from vendors and stuff than it is
when they're you know everybody's
banging down their door

(05:27):
um or or you know good excuse to make
sure you you know negotiate some blanket
order stuff where you can like hedge
across
seasons and and and get supply up and
down so there's there's some interesting
strategy that's tied to seasonal demand
of stuff too that oh could be its own
episode as we always like
foreign uh yes but absolutely I know I

(05:50):
know that uh some of the things we're
getting ready to hit that busy season uh
especially in this hobbyist and and
maker space like you know the towards
the end of the year oh yeah you know
things should start going crazy uh
especially right around the holidays
absolutely so I was looking I don't know
if you've read read up on your stats
lately but I was looking at something
like our revenue for the year is so Q4

(06:14):
weighted uh yeah I want to say that
something like 50 of our revenue is
coming from oh wow or has has
historically I haven't done it for the
last year yet but again you know having
the
uh you know the sense of timing around
stuff is important and yeah and planning
planning for that right like we know a

(06:36):
busy retail so if you're tied to
hobbyists and Retail and stuff like that
you're gonna see a lot more demand in
the uh the high holidays of purchasing
yeah yeah we you know it's interesting
for us we see a lot of um a pretty good
spread
um I'd say I'd say you know Q2 things

(06:57):
start going down middle uh you know
beginning of Q3 things are kind of at
the lowest and then going into Q4 you
know that's where things really pick up
so you know it's it's pretty spread out
uh you know I was just taking a look at
our analytics here real quick but yeah
you know it uh 50 in the in Q4 that's uh
that's impressive it's not well I don't

(07:19):
know I mean I would rather it was spread
a little bit more evenly because it's
been really challenging for us when we
go feaster famine uh away stuff
so so you know and
we can go into that in a little bit uh
but you know trying to find a way to

(07:40):
hedge and you know not be as Tethered to
one specific Revenue stream is obviously
uh critical
but before we get to that uh we have a
tradition on the Pod right we do wins of
the week because we are positive
individuals and we talk about uh things
that that are good in our lives and and
uh this is the time in the chat where

(08:02):
everybody needs to uh share something
awesome that's happening it can be in
your personal life it can be it can be
basic you know you made the best cup of
coffee this morning and you're just
super happy about it or you know you you
signed a contract or did a big business
deal Andrew I know you've got a lot of
wins right from the summer so give me
one of them at least give you one of

(08:22):
them uh I mean you know let's just say
uh I I'm really looking forward here's
it's kind of a future win we've put a
lot of work into getting to where we
were uh over the over the past couple of
months and uh I I'm so excited that all
of it came together in just the right

(08:43):
time to you know go to a couple of these
shows and have a fantastic event
um and I I think really looking forward
I I I laid a lot of groundwork for
myself for the next shows and the next
events and you know just being able to
build upon that yeah um you know so I
feel like that's a win kind of just a

(09:03):
just a general you know feeling good
about where I am now right right
um I'm gonna say
this let's see I'm gonna take my win for
the week
um
let's just go with uh
um uh I'm excited uh for some events

(09:25):
that are coming up uh I've I've I
finally booked uh and got a plan
together to get to earth uh nice
that was more of a challenge than I was
thinking we are not having a booth this
year unfortunately you'll notice we're
missing from the final
sponsor list unfortunately just based on
budget and all that stuff but uh the the
team was very supportive of us and that

(09:48):
and I'm just excited to to be out and be
with my people at the end of the month
so if you're not familiar with what
Earth is that's the East Coast rep rap
Festival so 3D printing which we love
uh and that's in Bel Air Maryland if you
are in the greater Washington Maryland
Baltimore Metro

(10:08):
uh well worth the little pilgrimage out
to the uh Aberdeen Proving Grounds Arena
where it's held and uh check out the
latest and greatest in 3D printing and
making and a lot of the people in the
chat I'm sure we'll see uh there let us
know if you're going to Earth in the
chat
Maple Leaf makers good morning good to

(10:30):
see you uh Ethan Coulter is here Winslow
joy we don't get to see you I saw him at
Earth last year I hope we'll see you
again this uh this coming one uh he had
something exciting looks like his XL XL
shipped yesterday yes we're finally
seeing the backlog of a lot of those
prusa orders coming in and uh
you know given the challenges that we've

(10:52):
seen with manufacturing a box
um I do not envy the massive massive
challenge around manufacturing a machine
as uh beautiful and uh complicated as
the the person Excel I've been lucky
enough to be on the beta team for quite
a while and I've seen even in the
shipping versions like they are

(11:14):
still like issuing rev changes and stuff
like that which is actually typical for
the way a company like prusa operates
um they are very committed to the idea
of continuous Improvement they move fast
they break things they improve on it all
the time and that that's where a lot of
the value is I think it's they've taken
a lot of fire and frustration

(11:35):
um because a lot of people are like well
this is incomplete you know or it's
missing features and stuff like that but
if you look at it in terms of like their
track record to improve and deliver and
you know like to say like they're still
issuing firmware updates for the Mark II
and they're on the mark IV or you know
level platform

(11:56):
um
you know what they're they're gonna get
there uh it's just being an early
adopter and and being part of us an
ecosystem where they are are very much
iterating and sometimes maybe using
you know actual customers more as you
don't want to say using them as testers
but you know realizing that even with

(12:16):
they're following a Lean Startup model
yes and we're yeah exactly I mean
sometimes you have to you know use some
customers as guinea pigs unfortunately
where you're testing something to make
sure it's gonna work right right you
know right so otherwise you're just
gonna keep delaying the timeline and
then no one's happy so right like at
some point you know you gotta you gotta

(12:38):
pull the trigger and you gotta ship and
I'll tell you what like I said I've been
on the beta team for Excel for a while
and um
they are very committed to having a
robust testing program and even with all
of that there's just stuff that just
gets missed that you just use cases and

(12:58):
I
you know maybe part of the challenge and
something to think about
um when you look at the people that
they're like reaching out to to do beta
um they are of a certain caliber and I
understand because you need commitment
and understanding in like a base level
like you can't just get a complete noob
in the door to do it all the you know uh

(13:20):
but
when you don't sometimes when you don't
have that individual you miss the things
that we just assume are obvious or
intuitive right yeah so finding that
balance of skill set is uh is probably
pretty important because yeah let's be
honest man like this this type of

(13:41):
platform is not it's still not a
beginner it's not an appliance grade
thing like there is a lot of a lot of
variables to control a lot of things to
Tinker with play with you have an Excel
right you got one yes oh yeah I got one
I was uh one of the first ones to get it
I got it uh back in may like early early
May yeah
um and uh actually I had to send that

(14:02):
one back because there were some issues
with it unfortunately
um I've got another one it happens well
did they fix it they fixed it they fixed
it good I fixed it you know but I
actually experienced some issues where
you know the testing team I I reached
out to support they had no idea uh of
these issues and like had long
conversations back and forth and you

(14:24):
know hopefully help them out for
troubleshooting in the future but uh
there's something to be said for getting
out you know getting the hardware out to
you know standard average users what by
the way like what timeline did that like
how long did it take them to replace it
and like because we're on the balloon
with XL yeah it took him a little bit I

(14:45):
didn't get my replacement until
um early July I believe and when did you
get the first one the first one I got
was early May so it took them you know
uh
it took them about two months give or
take oh really get it all now is that
because there was some back and forth on
diagnosis back and forth you're also
waiting we were traveling for a lot of

(15:06):
that too so we were yeah okay so it was
it wasn't like they're like oh hold on
and then it took him two months to ship
one then exactly no they were they were
in constant communication it wasn't like
a black hole and then two months later
it's like oh hey here it is uh you know
I think it was probably closer to like
six maybe seven weeks so about maybe a
month and a half give or take okay
um yeah it was uh it was good I mean now

(15:28):
unfortunately I mean I you know there
was still some issues with the
replacement one but yeah you know prusa
Bruce's fantastic at support so yeah
um you know I I the one that I've got
now I love it
good good good well again I think you
know people don't it's tough because
humans are an impatient lot in general

(15:50):
uh so it's like we wanna we want it now
and stuff like that but again when I
look at the value of like an established
brand like this and I know that they're
committed to like making it right
eventually and sometimes it just takes a
lot longer than we expect uh especially
the more complicated a product becomes
um so you know hopefully we look back at

(16:11):
this you know a year from now and be
like Oh remember and and the ecosystem
is just going to be like next level
right it's like they're constantly like
the firmware is improving the speed of
the machines or the reliability of the
machines improving
you have a path because you just got the
single head but it's like you've got a
path now to just if you want to add a
second or a third or fourth oh that was
always the plan right
yeah I was gonna get the small or the

(16:33):
the early one so I get it in I can get
you know some testing under my belt and
then after all of the five tool heads
ship and the the upgrade kits could
become available I was gonna jump right
in line and get those right you know and
and honestly I think there's some Merit
to sometimes waiting and like letting
other people go through the Pains of
like that particular part of it too
because there's there's literally like

(16:55):
independent teams working on different
site you know something like a platform
because this like something like that
goes beyond just like a machine to like
this like larger ecosystem where there's
like focus on just the uh extruder heads
right and they're they're they share a
lot of similarities with the mark IV but
they're not completely the same and the
tool changing version is different than

(17:16):
the fixed head version it's like an auto
manufacturing you have teams that work
on the engine team that work on the
brain break in the transmission and
these are independent teams and then
eventually they all come together to
build the the completed you know
automobile yeah
um you know it's it's too complex for
one person to do everything so sure you
know I think it's interesting we're

(17:36):
we're going down a bit of a rabbit hole
but I do think it's interesting to talk
about larger companies that are like a
little further down the road than like
we are as small business owners yes
right and think about the challenges
that we might face you know five ten
years from now because you know person's
been around
from the jump of the reprap you know

(17:57):
movement 2009 12 years 13 years yeah
well they they had their they had their
10-year anniversary edition you know
last year I think last year I thought it
was I thought it was 21 but well maybe
that's when the printer got released I
don't know but they're yeah they're
pushing 12 dozen years or something like
that which you know in our in our space
I mean 3D printing has been around a lot

(18:18):
longer but since the patents opened up
and like oh yeah the hobbyist rep rap
maker movement well you know there were
you know they're ogs
yeah I mean you know you said something
about how it is kind of interesting to
talk about these larger companies
because you know for instance you know
you know we're still kind of a two-man
shop over here
um and you know that means I touch every

(18:40):
facet of the business every single thing
yeah you know I have some sort of
control and touch and you know say over
yeah uh yeah I mean we're growing at a
stupid rate and literally you know
probably by you know early next year
there are going to be pieces where I
might know what's going on but I am not
touching them anymore like they're

(19:01):
completely handed off
um you know and as as things continue to
grow you know it you you now have to
figure out how you manage people and how
the organization as a whole moves
forward uh you know thankfully for us we
have a fairly simple product
um but at the end of the day you know
there's still processes that we have to
do and so like that's been one of my big

(19:24):
um you know kind of you know pieces I've
been working on over the summer break
here is figuring out and nailing down
processes and coming up with procedures
of how eventually I hand over operations
yeah so and as somebody that's like walk
that road and and had many challenges
with it right because it's like you know

(19:46):
like you started solo and then you know
being able to let go of some of that
stuff
mm-hmm where even when I know that I
need to is is a challenge some stuff I'm
more than happy to let go of right like
and I I still can't let go of something
um but but my gosh uh you you you pivot

(20:08):
away from being I mean it's the it's the
common saying right it's like you want
to move toward working on the business
not in the business yeah right uh
because eventually we all want to be
able to retire and you need to be able
to like structure something that allows
you to
divest your time or trade time for you
know what you've built in terms of you

(20:29):
know passive income
um
but that's a long road and a lot of
people never get there right how many
people die in their business I wonder
under the weight of it oh geez that's a
bit more good but yeah you get the idea
um but uh let's pin that for a second
that's an interesting uh subject of of
discussion and and and we have an

(20:51):
interesting juxtaposition to get into uh
one of the things uh I'm alluding to in
our title you're going through explosive
growth I've had to deal with the
challenges of contraction uh and so
we're gonna we're gonna that's kind of
the theme of today's episode we're gonna
talk about that in a second but before
we do that I want to do some uh finished
our summer updates and talk about some

(21:11):
of the events that we went to uh over
the summer and maybe the business value
that we saw what worked what didn't work
what do you got where where did we go
because we were a couple different
things yes yes so um I actually we we
pulled out of Earth
um I'm sorry not or Murph
um yeah uh hey I'm sorry

(21:34):
Joe thank you very generous thank you
project red for jumping in and and the
20 donation to support what we do here
we appreciate you my friend awesome I
hope we'll see you at the end of the
month at Earth uh you were saying you
jumped off of of uh yes we didn't attend
it either yeah yeah so we we pulled out

(21:54):
of uh out of Murph uh because we had an
opportunity come up kind of last minute
uh to go and attend an event down in
West Coast uh San Francisco uh since
it's happened now probably most have
heard now open sauce
um so it's pretty exclusive yeah
uh a 3D gloop was a was a sponsor of the

(22:17):
event so yeah yeah um you know that was
uh an inaugural sponsor yes it was a
really cool Hedgehog you know for a buck
50 buddy thank you
um yeah no it was a really it was a
really cool opportunity
um and we got to do a couple really cool

(22:38):
spectacles uh we introduced uh our giant
industrial robot arm uh Jeff uh for the
first time he's uh he's
a lot of fun
um and uh you know it was a it was kind
of a funny you know sort of story to to
come up with that but uh I'll save that
for another time

(22:59):
um you guys need to go look up Jeff if
you haven't had a chance to see there's
some good Joel did a good video on it uh
j e p h f is the spelling my name is
Jeff and yeah that was a fun little
spectacle that we put together uh
Andrew's brainchild and it's a giant
industrial FANUC robot that did tug of
war so go check check out uh search for

(23:22):
what are we searching for Open sauce Man
versus machine robots something like
that it's on Joel's Channel if you want
to go film yeah just go to Joel's
Channel like everyone knows Joel just go
to his channel you'll find that's 3D
printing nerd for anybody listening back
after the fact it's uh it's a it's a it
was a fun spectacle
um I you know there were some things

(23:42):
that we learned uh you know we it was a
very condensed timeline I think when we
got the when we got the go-ahead and
everything else it was like nine weeks
so from from nothing to completed
program robot playing tug of war and all
of the legal hoops and insurance all
sorts of stuff that we had to jump

(24:02):
through uh happened in nine weeks
um and I gotta be honest uh I I helped
out with the organization around this
although Andrew did the bulk of it but
when he first pitched this idea to me I
was like well I love it but there's no
way this is gonna happen like it's just
too potentially I mean these machines
first of all this is like I'm not
talking about these little tiny little

(24:24):
arm robots that we see just for testing
this thing weighs 5 000 pounds 5 000
pounds industrial robot for like
hoisting engine blocks or like it could
literally fling an engine block across
the room it'll kill you and not think
twice smash you into the ground like
whatever right yeah uh so massive safety
considerations uh uh just the getting

(24:45):
power to it just being able to transport
it and mean you had to buy a a truck we
had to buy a truck with a lift gate it
broke the lift gate you know all those
things all those things yeah when thank
you so much come on guys everybody my
heart is full right now
um you guys I you know we have not we

(25:08):
have intentionally not made a point of
like trying to solicit uh support but it
does mean a lot to us to know that there
are other people that are out there that
are passionate about this content and
appreciate it
um and and help support us bringing it
to you because it's it's just a passion
project for the both of us right now and
to be able to take time out of our you
know businesses and our day to do this

(25:30):
um is costly and so we appreciate you
guys letting us uh uh continue to bring
this kind of thing to you and uh thank
you for the bottom of our hearts
and even if you're just here and
participating in the chat that we love
you for that as well too so yes thank
you to everybody that could be here
uh so that was Jeff so that was open

(25:51):
sauce now that let me I'll just give my
my take on open source really
interesting event this was the first
year they had it at Pier 35 in San
Francisco
uh as an attendee as a location really
cool space okay so this is like uh this
is like a a pure like an old converted
Pier it was like a very open

(26:13):
um massive space you know just concrete
floors like long Galley like out over
the water
um and as a location I think San
Francisco is is a great choice right
just got Bay Area nearby it was
reasonably accessible you know from
internationally uh all sorts of stuff uh
William Osmond was the the key organizer

(26:33):
around it and a lot of it frankly was
probably his excuse to just have a party
with with a lot of his content creator
buddies which I can appreciate right
because there was an element of like
VidCon
where you know a lot of the creators are
getting together and and networking and
doing that and doing panels they they
had some interesting monetization of

(26:57):
I don't know if that's a fair way to say
it but you know I think they did a
pretty good job of
recognizing the value of the creators
that they brought in and there were VIP
tickets they were very expensive I know
a lot of people bitched and moaned about
it but
um you know it's not every day you get
to bring in High Caliber Mark Rober
strange Parts you know

(27:19):
um uh Alan pan backyard scientist like
some top top top tier creators
um and so you know those that paid for
it had access to private panels and
discussions and meet and greets and
events and all that stuff and as a
sponsor we had access to some of that
and I say like 3D gloop and and uh

(27:42):
you guys employed me basically at a
contract and help with the activation
around some of that and I appreciated
you guys for involving me with that I
think that was a really neat thing it
was also a really great experience to
engage in kind of a different crowd than
we were used to seeing Oh it's
completely different right
um so definitely a lot of maker overlap

(28:05):
but there was definitely like content
creators and just average like tech
people
um all walks of life uh I think gloop
got some pretty good exposure they were
it's it's so funny having been in you
know a shared space with you for a long
time like to see the number of people
come up and go what is gloop and I'm

(28:25):
like oh yeah that's right these people
don't even know what this is yeah right
or not in our normal uh group of people
mm-hmm yeah no I mean it was uh it was a
fantastic event and I'm excited I know
there are already talks for next year
and uh you know as a as a sponsor we've
already gotten some communication back
from them as well

(28:46):
um so look forward to us putting on
helping put on
um you know doing our part is sponsoring
the event uh in 2024. so it's uh it's
gonna be exciting to say the least
um so how would you as a business as a
small business especially right yeah the
the I don't know you know I'm not gonna
put you too much on the spot but when

(29:08):
you're looking at your Roi in terms of
like the the sponsorship fees that you
paid and then all of the money that you
spent for just for the activation and
the booth space
that was a that was a good that was more
than you'd spent on any other marketing
Endeavor by far right it was more money
than we had probably made in the first

(29:32):
like year of our existence let's put it
that way when it's all said and done we
I cannot believe when I saw the dollar
figure how much money we actually spent
being a bootstrapped business yeah
coming up from quite literally nothing
um you know you go through making your
first dollar to making your first

(29:52):
hundred to a thousand eventually a
hundred thousand the amount of money
that we put into this
um you know was you know it was crazy
I'm not trying to brag here it was just
like it
as a small business it kind of hurt to
say like we could have taken that money
and done it other things but the way
that I see it was this was an

(30:13):
opportunity to get it on the ground
floor of an event that I felt you know
had a lot of potential also at the same
time it it's a long game like this is
chess moves that we were playing
moves ahead uh you know we can't be
thinking about the pieces that we've got
you know where they are right now we've
got to be thinking where you know things

(30:35):
are going to end up after there's some
play that's happening and so that's
really what this was about right um in
terms of Effectiveness uh you know it
was it was a huge sunk cost
um but
it what it did was it got us out to A
Whole New Market it got so many new
connections to some top level
influencers uh you know we got a network

(30:57):
and you know just mingle with them uh we
came back with a few new friends uh you
know just a good a good honest time like
it was just it was fantastic so in the
future as we continue to grow that
number is going to you know it's going
to go up like the amount of money that
we're gonna have to spend for sponsoring

(31:18):
and other things like that but in the
scheme of things it's becoming smaller
and smaller and smaller portions of the
revenue that we're bringing in
um right yeah so and and first of all
let me just say I got a shout out to
William and his team they made massive
concessions for massive year year one
sponsors like smoking deal as as if to

(31:40):
for it was a ton of money for you to
spend as a small business
but in the scope of like what an event
like this would cost a business to be
part of like they did they made massive
concessions and part of that if it
wasn't for them yeah I was gonna say if
it wasn't for them willing to make those
concessions we wouldn't have been able

(32:01):
to wouldn't have been able there's just
no way yeah so exactly I think there's
something actually that's really like
endearing about that uh and and I hope
um you know in talking to them and
moving forward and we've talked about
this in the past too but but
um
you know having I would say like uh some
concessions for small business or like

(32:23):
maybe do a sliding scale for people that
are up and coming or some reciprocity so
I think part of the value that that you
brought was some spectacle right uh uh
Jeff was totally on Brandon they you got
them excited they were willing to come
down on what they were going to charge
you for sponsorship because you were
showing up with something that was
totally on brand you know this this uh

(32:44):
Man versus machine tug of war thing and
while it didn't go exactly the way that
we had hoped we learned a lot of things
um and I think it was a win-win when you
look at
again you're doing networking
relationship building uh you're getting
access to a a group an audience that you
wouldn't otherwise have that's new
you're bringing new people into the fold

(33:04):
which is fantastic so like a lot of
really great things happen but like you
said you have to have faith that like
this is long-term branding spend right
and unfortunately when you're a small
business like you don't tend to have
funds to to spend on branding plays in
the same way right because every dollar

(33:25):
counts uh yes and you're constantly
doing that that calculus of opportunity
cost when if I'm spending ten thousand
dollars here that's ten thousand dollars
I do not have to do X Y and Z which I
desperately also need to do
so thinking outside of the box reminding

(33:46):
yourself that whenever you're pitching
anything in business I would just say
like
there needs to be mutually beneficial
things and so when you start getting
outside the box I'm like okay well if we
can't come with all the cash that you
want like if if open source was getting
all the cash that they wanted for that
sponsorship we're probably talking what
25 30k 40K upwards you know for for

(34:08):
Primo title sponsorship on the home page
you know banners up and everything the
way they did I mean they pulled out all
the stops it was an amazing value in
terms of that
um yeah but that's a so much money as a
small business right that you we just
most people don't even have the luxury
of coming up with so what I'm getting at
is you got to be thinking about the

(34:30):
win-win well what I can't come up with
all that cash but maybe I can bring
value in terms of like things people are
going to get excited about that they can
market like we're gonna have this
exhibit and all that stuff and
I would have
if I'm being honest I I think it would
have been nice if there was a little bit
more visibility or utilization of that
but again with the fog of War and the
chaos of the first year and like

(34:51):
uncertainty about whether or not we
could even do it if it was gonna yeah
there were so many so many things to
jump through so many like last minute
gotchas that we had to figure out how to
put them out yeah like it was it was I
mean I am happy how the event came out
and and everything else and I'm looking
forward to the next event which you know
here for us is going to be Earth and

(35:13):
Jeff is going to show up at Earth uh you
know he's he's not you know he's it's it
was an investment for us you know so a
lot of this cost also went into yes
purchasing Jeff purchasing the truck
purchasing the stuff to get you know us
to these events so again it was more of
a calculated play yeah

(35:34):
um so you know yeah I'm excited really
looking forward to the future
um you know because we've laid a lot of
really awesome some groundwork yeah yeah
yeah and and that and that's true and
that hopefully that proves to be a
worthwhile investment because it's
something that's memorable so I always
say like spectacle is a fantastic value
from marketing standpoint because these

(35:56):
are the things that people remember when
they go to this event and they're like
remember that tug of war thing like
they're not gonna remember all the boots
they walked around to and stuff like
that and there's I think there's ways to
put on uh entertainment uh uh that that
are not nearly as costly
um but but if if you're thinking about
little takeaway nuggets for your
business or something you have in the

(36:17):
future like think about like what's
gonna make people remember you because I
say I've said a number of podcasts over
and over like you don't have a sales
problem you have an awareness problem
and one of the best things you can do to
combat awareness is being remembered for
things right and and having people tell
you know do your advertising for you
like oh my gosh I went to this event and

(36:38):
we did this tug of war against this
robot and then people like wait what was
that and all that stuff and yeah think
about the permanence of seeing like your
brand stenciled across the edge of of
Jeff and how much more visible that is
than just like the banner blindness that
we all see with all the you know promo
ads posted everywhere and stuff like
that so
so anyway kudos to you for making that

(37:00):
happen I mean you guys listen like what
was it a week maybe two weeks ahead they
were gonna they were like they were like
we can't do the robot it was it was like
after it was all you know it was
purchased the programming was on the
training like we were we were freaking
out right and we're like okay where's
the problem let's work the problem let's
figure it out it was an issue you know
the it was an issue with you know the

(37:22):
fire marshal and things being approved
or potentially being too tall or any of
this stuff and at the end of the day
like we figured out a way to like
get it done and it was yep
but man was that stressful yeah
say the least so right right yeah uh so
that was just one event uh the other two
well we can gloss over the other ones we

(37:42):
did a a trip after that we road trip up
to uh the proto-pasta event with Joel
and for Amy's uh charity uh the uh the
stem the women in stem charity uh 3D
printer giveaway uh let's see repcord
contributed like I think
12 or 14 machines for that and I

(38:03):
realized I like left two behind that I
wanted to so we'll have to save that for
the next one uh that was an awesome time
uh Alex yeah which we were really
appreciative of and uh met another group
there we did a little filament making
thing which is always going to get to
Proto pasta so if you're up in the
Pacific Northwest and want to support an
awesome group of people uh protopostas

(38:26):
right there and they've got a fantastic
Proto plant where they make all that
fresh fresh plasticky for the 3D
printings
uh and then let's see
would did you have any other events
after that I pushed on to LTX after that
you went to LTX the Linus tech expo
uh which was awesome

(38:48):
um I was a rep for prusa there and we
showed off the Excel and some new stuff
and that was really cool too because
again that engaged a whole nother crowd
that
um I didn't get to interact with
normally right like these are these are
tech people so there's like when you
look at the Venn diagram of people that
are into Tech and people that are into
3D printing like definitely clear

(39:09):
overlap
um but still a lot of people that are
like you know they're just kind of
waiting the wings we're like I don't
know if I have an application for 3D
printing but then they get to see that
like that Booth space first of all they
allocated just like a tiny little thing
for like all the 3D 3D printing
companies so prusa was there Heda mommy
was there uh Pantheon bamboo and uh 3D

(39:30):
print Canada all shared this little like
20 by 20 space and it was packed the
entire time right and so you know uh
shout out Colton and and his team that
organized they're like yeah we're gonna
allocate more because it was a good uh
different thing for them to show off
than just the normal like uh here's some
you know computers and video cards and

(39:51):
Wan stuff and you know the things that
blindness is known for uh so it's always
cool to see like kind of crowds overlap
and and ideas forming like for people
that are like in business and they're
like oh you know what would be cool if
we started 3D printing some of these
like you know custom uh case mods or you
know when you start to see these like

(40:11):
cool application overlaps and people
like the light bulb goes off in terms of
opportunity for leveraging the tool set
for business in a different way so I
think there's a ton of cool opportunity
in there oh yes absolutely I know you
were considering going up there but that
probably would have been a bit much with
the timing of it all and but maybe a
possibility for the future oh absolutely

(40:33):
yeah there are a lot of things like as
as 3D gloop continues to grow uh you
know we're constantly looking at what
the next you know sort of thing looks
like on the horizon for us and uh
attending these trade shows and events
are a huge like a huge mover for getting
our brand out there getting awareness

(40:55):
um and it's the reason why we exist had
we not gone to Earth back in uh 2018 we
wouldn't be here right um right you know
so it will always be part of our DNA uh
so absolutely really looking forward to
the next events uh maybe one day you'll
see us in a rapid uh you know

(41:16):
I don't doubt it in the in the least
um you know I am a massive advocate of
of attending events uh if you're getting
into the space and and the sooner you
can to get your brand out there and just
to network and interact I mean I mean
what I'm an advocate for is actually
like networking and face time with
people

(41:36):
um which frankly is becoming a lost art
in the virtual world that we live in
yeah but it's absolutely you know again
it applies a an object permanence to to
things when it's like no I I had a
conversation with Andrew with pooch
whatever and that that is way more
powerful than like the live streams and
trying to interact with people virtually

(41:57):
right yeah
um actually on that note uh you you got
an opportunity to meet up with uh with
loyal Moses while you were up in uh oh
yes yeah yeah yeah and I think you you
were saying you had some interesting
conversations around that because I know
he's got a you know he does a lot of
live streaming and is working on
building three different Community stuff

(42:18):
and you know all that and having
discussions around that I'll I'll say
this you know knowing someone online
versus meeting them in person it is it
is two completely different worlds
um you know I mean you can kind of get
to know someone online in their presence
and like who they might be uh but when

(42:39):
you get to meet them in person and get
to see the the contextual pieces that
many people don't see the body language
the way they hold themselves the way
they talk the way they phrase the words
right exactly it's it's completely
different and um you know it was a it
was a pleasure it was honestly a real
pleasure getting to meet you know loyal

(43:00):
in person um it was really cool it was
on on my way home
um was able to swing on by and and chat
with him loyal and uh Patrick actually
made our safety helmets oh my God they
did such an amazing job with that too
yeah the safety helmets for the Jeff uh
tug of war Expo so part of the memorable
experience too right like Alan pan had

(43:21):
that pot helmet on which was just
hilarious uh and then a lot of the other
creators
um you know wearing Mando helmets and
the bunny helmet that loyal made and
it's just so good and polymaker like
sponsored a bunch of filament for it it
was a really cool you know combination
of a couple of awesome people that I I
don't feel like we gave nearly enough
like shout outs we didn't because of the

(43:42):
chaos of the whole thing but moving
forward there's there's some new things
that we're working on and hopefully
we'll have some helmet contests and you
know some new uh new like projects
overall so I I think there'll be ways in
which we can leverage that but uh
getting back to the uh you know meeting
people like going out to these events
and meeting people in person there is

(44:04):
just there's something to be said for it
like really changing perspective and
understandings of whether it's a product
whether it's a service whether it's an
individual just you know by themselves
um you know it was uh it was awesome I'm
really looking forward to you know
seeing more people come to these events

(44:25):
um you know obviously can't speak for
everyone
um but I want to see I want to see
everyone start coming to these events
because uh we're all we're all a big
family and we are and like I said these
are like these are my people a lot of
the time I am very I am a I'm gonna I'm
gonna share a little secret with you
guys gonna get in here close uh I am a
highly extroverted individual uh and by
that I mean like I derive massive

(44:48):
amounts of energy from just interacting
with with people uh and I know that
comes as a surprise to a lot of you guys
but uh that's very true for me and when
I don't get enough of that like yes I it
can be draining it takes a lot of energy
but but I do best when I am like out

(45:09):
amongst my people which is why I think I
invest so much in in it and that's like
where I seem to excel in in a lot of
what I do
um I know that uh covid times were tough
for a lot of people but they were also
beneficial I had a number of
conversations with some awesome creators
at opens us about this because a lot of
them got their made their name in

(45:30):
coveted times where they because they
were introverted individuals where they
thrived just being forced to stay in and
to to develop and to hone their craft
and to to work on stuff and a few of
them surprised me too because I think uh
a lot of class of what I would call like
extroverted introverts like came out
where outwardly they present as very

(45:52):
bombastic and energetic and like you
would just expect that when you meet
them in person that they're just like
Larger than Life the way they are in
their online persona but they're
actually very shy and overwhelmed and
timid and stuff like that because you're
flexing completely different muscles
when you're doing this stuff in front of
a camera versus in person
and um that was really interesting I had

(46:13):
a number of good conversations one of my
favorite uh meets uh at open source was
uh Maddie XB uh unnecessary inventions
if you guys don't know who that is or
you need to check him out he is
hilarious he's a very talented like I
would say like comedy writer uh and his
his
um intersection of of education and

(46:34):
entertainment education is relative I
call it edutainment right like the the
mixture of like I'm trying to be
entertaining and silly and he's
developed product the the the stick is
like they're unnecessary like they're
ridiculous right but he's actually made
sellable product and he's he's like got

(46:55):
a data gold mine in terms of like he
puts all these things out there he gets
all this feedback and he's like you know
that actually might be made worth making
uh Mark Zuckerberg bath mat because
people just want that because it's silly
um so how unnecessary it actually is is
interesting but I think he found a
really good shtick in that he was one of
those individuals where he he comes

(47:16):
across Larger than Life amazing super
energetic on camera but he's actually a
little bit more subdued I think feeling
a little bit more overwhelmed and I got
to talk to him about his process and and
how you know he still does his own
editing and and shoots his own stuff and
I think he he kind of likes it that way
he's got a fantastic studio space really
awesome down to earth guy uh I love

(47:39):
everything about him I support
everything he does I would watch
anything and everything all the time
from Maddie so go check him out shout
out to unnecessary inventions
um
let's give a couple more shout outs
while we can to the chat you're going to
see some new people 20 20 20 30
experience I don't I don't know how to
pronounce that uh Gtech Studio good to

(48:01):
see you guys welcome to you Ryan how's
it going Ryan we'll see you Ryan and uh
the misses at uh Earth this year maybe I
don't know
never let the machines win
uh yes I'm I'm coming out of my shelf
very slowly Mike
uh okay let me um it was it was an event

(48:23):
packed summer
yes and we didn't even get to go to all
of them
um I love that and we're we've got some
pretty key events up and coming for the
fall uh Earth being a big one uh and
then there's form next in Germany for
any of our EU folks that might be on and
listening uh and and then the Sanjay
Memorial reprap Festival the first

(48:44):
annual uh one of those in the UK which
is also hopefully gonna be pretty big
coming up uh in the Oxford area of the
UK so I'm excited for those events
um
yeah get to what you can even if it's
just the smaller mini maker fares or
whatever interact with people get ideas
get your businesses out there

(49:06):
you know you know that's that's probably
good on uh PSAs for events
um yeah
I'd I'd like to take a moment if we can
and we've got like 10 minutes left so
you know talk we ramble we talk about
that's kind of what we do you know
little nuggets with some rabbit holding

(49:26):
here and there but hopefully it's fun
and entertaining for you guys
um
yo so we mentioned like you're going
through some some pretty serious growth
which is fantastic you've gotten some
great grants and supports from the city
of St Louis
and uh some some entities out there
which is awesome to see
um and I mentioned earlier like my Mia

(49:48):
culpa the my challenges is uh are uh
contraction and if I'm being honest you
guys uh
I am in an interesting Crossroads at the
point at this point with repcord
um where for the first time I I had to
do a layoff which uh really affected me
a lot more than I thought it would I

(50:08):
mean it's part of the comes with the
territory when you have people
um you know when the money's not there
like you gotta come everywhere you can
and payroll is
Far and Away my largest expense
uh that was really tough because I am a
very I felt I took that really hard

(50:28):
because I felt like it was a failure of
commitment toward you know some of the
people that have been with me for years
this is uh this was an individual that
was
helping me for years now
um that that I I you know I valued his
his contributions uh as as an employee
and a friend uh for lot and he was he

(50:50):
made a ton of concessions to come on and
work with me and to be able to not
deliver
um in terms of like the opportunity to
you know grow and paid what he was
actually worth and all that stuff
um I was I was massively depressed about
that for a while if I'm being honest
uh because I think

(51:12):
um part of my challenge is as a manager
of people
um I probably sometimes get too
emotionally invested you know
um and I think there's difference of
opinions in terms of like you know how
to operate um
you know from a business standpoint it's
just the reality of what it is and these
are tough decisions that you have to
make sometimes and things that you have
to do

(51:32):
um but as a human uh I
you know I probably get a little bit too
close and too invested sometimes in that
um and so that was that was tough uh
uh and and then uh as a follow-on to
that like two weeks ago my last
individual was left gave his notice and

(51:53):
so at the moment rep court is down to a
force of one again
um which uh again at first I was like ah
this feels like
failure to some extent but I stopped
thinking about it it was like okay well
I think there's there's a vanity metric

(52:13):
sometimes in the in the idea of like how
many employees do you have right sure in
the sense that like that gives people
some sort of sense of like the size of
your operation and to feel like I have
nobody else now
um one because of who I am and like just
being alone in place that's not good for
me in terms of operating in general for
like mentally you know all that stuff

(52:34):
but um too you know feels like we're
just moving in the wrong direction
and
um you know it's not to say that I can't
hire more people and do all this other
stuff but it's it's given me an
interesting opportunity to kind of
retreat back while sales are slower and
all that stuff and like okay what's the
plan for the future what were the what
are the learning opportunities here
where do we go

(52:56):
um and why why why did it happen right
yeah
um
I I'm not one to just kind of like rest
on like the the common
thread that people say like well you
know it's a challenge right now
everybody's Contracting the Market's not
as good people's disposable income isn't
as high as it once was economy inflation

(53:17):
yeah Europe you know all this stuff we
had a kind of I don't say a perfect
storm but a lot of a lot of
negative things happened all the same
time we lost some resellers in Europe
um you know I was way too tight you know
I had too much money tied up in some
pretty big accounts that fell out and
fell out from under I spent a lot of
money investing in scaling manufacturing

(53:39):
Opera uh uh opportunities buying
equipment uh setting up process only to
find that we had way way too much
capacity and not nearly much enough
demand manufacturing is so hard and it
is
infinitely harder in California where
labor costs are incredibly High legal

(54:01):
costs Insurance caught all of it
everything probably one of the most
expensive places to operate a
manufacturing thing even a bespoke one
like ours that was doing you know it's
it's it's almost silly for me to call it
manufacturing I mean it is manufacturing
but it just doesn't
it doesn't feel like you know we're kind
of a job shop or whatever but you know

(54:22):
well when we did the calcs like on our
capacity like we had the ability I think
to make we scaled up to the ability to
to meet the demand of like a few hundred
boxes a week which
um which in our Heyday in the Golden Era
uh of rep boxing like was actually
Within Reach uh during peak season

(54:45):
um
and well you know demand does pick up
back up again but it's become very clear
as my cost of Labor has increased as my
cost of materials is increased like what
I have my product does not scale and and
the the challenges around like as your
cost as your my price has to go up

(55:07):
because I can't operate as a business
like on at a loss right
duh that's the whole reason we're here
um and so
having that come to Jesus moment around
like
man I don't want to relinquish control
of manufacturing I don't want to

(55:28):
potentially lose that quality and that
that closeness to the the product
yeah but it if I can't compete if I
can't sell and I don't exist that I
can't win either right we've talked
about made in the USA before and all
this stuff like I I want to you know
people talk a good game when it comes to
like wanting to support local companies
and all that stuff but at the end of the

(55:49):
day
the data is so tied to how price Centric
things are the reason we were doing well
at volume was like our prices were like
20 to 30 percent less what it is now
what it's had to become
and for the for a given product of a
specific thing like there is a cap on
what people are willing to spend because

(56:09):
at some point your your number of people
that are willing to like invest in
something like a rep box versus just
going and get a tupperware and drilling
holes in it like gets less and less and
less yes
I know that I know that
um but uh uh we're going the wrong
direction like if I can get the cost of
the the box back down into like
reasonable space again

(56:31):
I suspect we'll see a dramatic change
but
I don't know guys I uh the a lot of the
challenges that I had around and a lot
of things frankly I don't do as well
like I can do manufacturing process and
all that stuff but that's not my
strengths
um
the decisions the hard decisions I need

(56:51):
to make in terms of like well maybe I
offload some of these things that have
been challenging you know like less
worrying about employees setting lasers
on fire and stuff and then it pivots
more toward a a cash intensivity of like
having to order larger volumes of stuff
have it sell through it reorder yeah

(57:12):
keep an eye on quality process I mean
there's no guarantee otherwise but the
product will be cheaper if I make it
overseas no doubt
yeah what do you guys think tell me in
the chat what do you think like I am at
an interesting Crossroads like I don't
know it's like we've built a lot of
brand reputation in space and all this

(57:32):
stuff
um I don't want to just see it die on
the vine I love it it's a passion of
mine
uh I still think there's lots of
opportunity there but
um I don't have the opportunity to just
go to the Midwest where labor is cheaper
and I can Source materials easier and
pay less for free and all that stuff and
for facility

(57:53):
yeah so at least not for the foreseeable
well my you know my kids and family are
here
what choice does that leave me I don't
know yeah I mean airing my dirty laundry
in front of everyone I feel exposed
I mean I appreciate you sharing that you
know I think that uh that it's tough
um and a lot of business owners uh will

(58:15):
and do go through many similar things
yeah um you know there are always
challenges I mean let's be honest
um you know it takes grit to be an
entrepreneur
um but I think sometimes
um you know there's there's a difference
between foolish stubbornness and actual
heroic persistence

(58:37):
um and sometimes that is yes really just
knowing when it's time to grit your
teeth together and turn around instead
of pushing forward on a path that
doesn't
lead to a success
um yeah you know and in many cases I
mean I don't have all the answers yeah
but uh I you know I know that we've had

(58:57):
conversations offline I think you know
there's there's opportunities there yeah
um yeah and uh you know I'm I I'm here
to support you in every way I know you
are and I appreciate you for that buddy
and I want to I want to take a a couple
uh comments here from the the chat
because the this is stuff that I've
spent way too much time as an
overthinker or just you know noodling uh

(59:19):
the first from vast CNC great question
do I think some of the contraction could
be tied to commitment to open source and
people producing designs rather than
purchasing
um I think that that's a common talking
point and a fear around open source
stuff one I don't have as much open
source stuff as I think people sometimes
think I do like we have the rep rack
um that was really never intended to be

(59:42):
a um
uh a pro a product that I wanted to
produce regularly like we support it
like I'll sell like you know the
brackets we'll sell laser cut versions
of it and stuff it's just kind of a
support thing but because the bulk of of
that product is like tied to EMT which
is not practical for me to ship and
stuff and it's just ubiquitous and cheap
at every you know major Home Store in

(01:00:03):
the US at least
um it was a perfect opportunity to just
do like a Goodwill piece uh to to get
that out there just share it let people
make them however they want and I think
that's brought a lot of value in terms
of visibility back to us I don't think
I've really left a ton of Revenue on the
table by like just pulling that out
there the other open source stuff we've
got the only other one was like the rep

(01:00:24):
Winder
um and there was like enough
um complexity in the non-printable parts
where people really wasn't practical for
them to Source their own and so we sold
a lot of those kits
um I would argue in a lot of a lot of
cases like open source is actually the
more beneficial in terms of the Goodwill
and the size of the the community in the

(01:00:45):
market that you can build up I mean look
at something like the voron project
um yeah well yes like you know maybe Max
and team like could have captured a lot
more of that than say ldo or the
companies that produce the kits and
actually sell and make the money off of
it but you know they determine like they
didn't want to deal with the head it's
hard manufacturing is hard uh and and

(01:01:06):
let's be honest like competing with
a Powerhouse like China like that's just
built to build to make is you're not
you're never going to be able to out
produce them in terms of manufact raw
manufacturing ability
um
the where you where you do is like our
ability to Market and engage audience in

(01:01:29):
a different way to innovate to do r d
and stuff like that that that's that's a
lot harder for for uh Chinese members
overseas companies to come to so that
that's kind of my gloss My First Take on
the
um open source versus uh you know
keeping it close what do you what do you
think about that yeah no I mean I I
absolutely agree you know in terms of uh

(01:01:51):
in terms of Open Source I mean you will
have people that will want to build
their own and there will be people who
go and do that yeah but the vast
majority I think we're seeing this in a
market today with the 3D printers like
no one cares anymore you know there are
people that do but the vast majority of
people the people that are voting with
their dollars right they're voting

(01:02:13):
saying I just want something that I can
buy that's a relatively cheap cost that
provides me a value that I perceive
right um you know is there and that's it
I would argue I would argue that a lot
of people like anybody that wants to
make their own anyway is probably not a
customer of yours to begin with like
they just want they want to make their
own right and so so aren't you better

(01:02:34):
off winning some Goodwill and some you
know uh uh support for maybe a future
product or or when they decide because
like you said we're always trading time
for dollars and vice versa and so when
you don't have money and you have time
to put sword things but a lot of open
sources products that are out there
they're not cheap either like well
building a forearm kit is not cheap it's

(01:02:55):
not you know there are inexpensive
opportunities and stuff but most people
when they start going down that road
they realize wait it's actually not like
it's going to cost me more to make my
own to Source when I cat when I factor
in sourcing things I can't Source Parts
in quantity that makes sense like I only
need 10 screws but I can't buy less than
a thousand of these or whatever

(01:03:16):
um so you know those are my feels on
that it's not it's not all the time but
again when you're looking at the overall
big picture I would agree with you the
vast majority of people like they would
much rather spend money than the time
and the energy
um so as a business focus so I think you
can get a lot I think people can be
getting a lot more value out of opening
up stuff I would love to do more open

(01:03:39):
stuff more Community stuff because I
love Community stuff
um yeah and I think that comes back to
you in different ways maybe it's not a
direct dollar tie all the time but
but again if you can build up awareness
you know that's that long game stuff we
talked about earlier yeah
um the other uh well there's more
comments in here but the 3D printer 3D

(01:04:00):
printing Professor comments on something
that I've spent
countless sleeping nights on right like
yeah we figured out how to manufacture
and figure out what to manufacture uh is
is uh is better and it might be time to
diversify so I believe and we've talked
at length about this
part of the reason I had struggled is

(01:04:21):
that I think I fell into the the very
common entrepreneurial trap of going
wide before I went deep and by that I
mean
you we have this inherent fear of Risk
by
um of putting all our eggs in one basket
right if I have one product that I am
known for let's say it's a storage box

(01:04:41):
for storing filament
my first pass especially as a maker this
is the fallacy the maker too is like
well I don't want to make the same thing
over and over again I want to like I
want to show that I can innovate and I'm
creative and we have way more to offer
and we do and I do and I love doing that
stuff and that is really hard to repress
but from a business standpoint as a

(01:05:02):
scalable full-time supporting you
business
when you are bootstrapped and you are
lean if you do not have the resources if
you do not have like r d and time it
takes to get new product online
and again it depends on what your
product is if we're just talking about
taking designs that can be 3D printed
and selling those things that is not the

(01:05:24):
same that's something else that is not
the same as I actually physical tangible
kits of stuff doing build guides doing
customer support you know it's because
the the thing that most people look at
is like well I can be I could build this
box it's not hard and I can manufacture
this box and it's not hard no the making
of the Box itself is actually like

(01:05:45):
probably only 25 of the battle uh if
that right it's like all these little
support things that nobody thinks about
how do I package this thing how do we
improve the packaging so they can go
overseas and international how do I do
the build guide how do I make the build
guide in five different languages in
five different modes that people uh can
understand right because not everybody

(01:06:06):
gets watching a video or wants to watch
a video so they want the build yeah they
want the online Internet like it's like
a full-time job just supporting like a
very very basic assembly thing yeah so
then your choice becomes like well maybe
you don't do kits and you just like we
save a lot I've had a lot of
conversations with 3D chameleon Bill
he's like we're not even offering a kid

(01:06:26):
anymore we found that it's just and I
apologize Bill if this is like sharing
your stuff but I think this is something
I think a lot of as well am I better off
saving all these headaches of like
dealing with the build guide and and
problems and customer support issues of
people just not following your
instructions breaking stuff rehabbing
reship stuff by just offering a fully

(01:06:46):
assembled one and saying we talked
nauseam about this you know I remember
coming out to your shop and talking
through this but again because that that
leans heavily into all the things that
we don't do well meaning like I have to
pay like labor is expensive here
yeah manufacturing is a challenge my
cost of materials has gone up 40

(01:07:08):
something percent over the last 16
months
uh which is just like a St like constant
just knife in the back knife in the back
knife in the back
um and you know I can only eat so much
more value out of saying like oh but
it's better it's marginally better we
got the ceiling better the you know
acrylic is better than MDF all these

(01:07:29):
other things it's only so much better I
can make it where it's just yeah but
that's Out Of Reach it's not practical I
don't want to spend four or five hundred
dollars on just like this like bling box
you know uh so so there's been a lot of
like swallowing some pride making some
hard decisions like I'm not I don't
think that I'm egotistical around it but

(01:07:49):
there are times where I feel like I've
been holding on to
something the way it is when there's
been a shift and I need I'm at a pivot
point right like I need to adapt or die
if I am priced out of where I need to be
to be selling a specific product line
either need to shift to a completely
different product line

(01:08:09):
um and and
uh 3D printing professors right like I
think there is a time where you need to
hedge but it's like no I need you need
to sell a lot more you need to focus on
engaging and like doing maximizing with
what you have before you go wide is my I
mean there are so many times I wish you
know like you know

(01:08:30):
I'm a maker entrepreneur myself like I
see all of these things I want to be
able to build I want to be able to make
and I'm like hey there's a product here
there's something that I could
potentially sell we have three products
that's all we have at glute we've had
the same three products since 2019.
one of them you've actually kind of

(01:08:52):
killed one of them we've killed yeah so
one of them we killed off yeah and I
mean the I'm not saying that the laser
focus will make you successful you know
there are things in which I know that we
could be doing better here but
intentionally holding off we have three
other product lines that we've spent

(01:09:12):
tons of money tons of time in the r d
but what Alan was talking about in terms
of getting packaging together so they
can ship in terms of the support in
terms of making for sure you put some
marketing material around this all of
the all of the ancillary items that go
into an additional product going wider
it's just it takes so much more time and

(01:09:35):
it's hard for us to support and then you
know in terms of trying to figure out
how to manufacture those things and all
of the processes that people don't see
on the back end you know it's it's
difficult
um you know in many cases I think in
entrepreneurs like in general in all
walks whether you're a maker or just a
general entrepreneur you have to be

(01:09:57):
super focused on what it is that you're
doing and do that one thing better than
anyone else could ever do it yep you
know and that's it well I mean what's
the common wisdom you see this in like a
lot of entrepreneur texts it's like you
know scale sell what you have before you
scale it right or like you know I think

(01:10:17):
the the the the dangers of trying to
scale too fast or or you know flailing
around like we've said this before like
focus is so key but and it's opportunity
cost right because we think like oh I'm
gonna I want to do this product I want
to be like no that's just makers being
makers I want to make all these cool
things oh would you buy this would you
buy this would you buy this but man is r
d time consuming intensive and all that

(01:10:39):
stuff part of the reason I had to let go
one of my guys I did he was fantastic at
the r d and all that stuff I just didn't
have
I wasn't in a place where I could
support that and I I was holding on too
long because I wanted his talent his
skills he was a great CAD guy and like
all this stuff but it just didn't have
the revenue tied to it it took too long

(01:10:59):
to actuate he was the brains behind like
a part of our uh of our turntable
product and all this stuff and it just
while I still believe that that's a
fantastic product and has the potential
to exceed the original rep box
I just I don't uh my other admission we
ran out of cash guys like we talk about
how important cash flow is like I

(01:11:21):
literally was at the point where it's
like the bank account was like this
close to zero for all intents and
purposes we were at Academy
and and I was like
what do I do you know I'm like cutting
everything I can and like all this stuff
I mean like and this is just it's funny
because in your personal life you were

(01:11:41):
like if you're out of cash you're you're
bankrupt
um you can't survive anymore in the
business world and and unfortunately
with Consumer Debt and all this stuff
like I think we have this ability to
kind of like delay or put off or or it
makes it too easy to not confront that
problem because you can just start
taking on debt and I am very very debt

(01:12:04):
averse right like I'm like nope we're
falling out of sustainability here we
need to contract and I you know it
sucked it sucked so bad but I'm like
okay
this is what we gotta do gotta do
layoffs gotta cut these things not gonna
do this it's like I wanna you know
unfortunately
I don't have the capacity to produce all
the product lines that we do anymore so

(01:12:24):
it's like I've had to be like okay we
got to go back to Our Roots we gotta you
know refine This I Gotta you know course
correct
um
in in the world of entrepreneur stuff
he's like there's so many people that
you can tell stories about like yeah we
ran out of cash and then we did
fundraising or we did this it's like
these are it's just like a thing that
happens you know and it is a solvable

(01:12:46):
problem like as much as it feels like oh
my gosh like we're we've gone under you
know
um you know thankfully I'm in a point
where it's like yeah yeah I can not pay
myself and I can kind of correct like
I've got you know because I don't have
all my eggs in one basket and stuff like
that it's it's not the end of the world
but uh it's it's really really when

(01:13:09):
you're you know when times get tough it
really makes you you know check your
metal and and uh decide you know what
you want to do so I've started looking
at is like okay this is an opportunity
to refocus and and make some tough
choices and it a lot of times I mean for
weeks and weeks it just felt like I was
just picking between the uh lesser of

(01:13:29):
two terrible choices right yeah it's
just the way it goes sometimes
um and so and then and then to have a
conversation with you where you're just
like we're growing like crazy and all
this stuff and I'm like dude are we even
working in the same environment and it's
it's so dependent on what your product
is and where you're at and you have a
completely different profile of customer

(01:13:50):
right you're completely spy land and
you're you're very unique in your
offering like yeah I guess you're
competing with what CA glue uh yeah but
well I mean I mean but you know they're
they're at any moment you know something
about regulations can change a new
competitor can come out sure and it
completely could ruin our business now

(01:14:10):
that's the other thing where it's like
diversifying does make sense and like
that's what I'm working on you know
trying to figure out okay I've taken it
to a point where things are growing
things the machine is running and we're
generating consistent Revenue now right
and now it's time to start try
diversifying right you know we've you
know but every business is different

(01:14:32):
unfortunately so we can't provide the
advice of hey this is what we did you
have to just follow this footstep I mean
I think in many cases being an
entrepreneur is is going through these
filters and it's basically tearing
yourself up to go through these filters
because it makes you a better
entrepreneur on the out on the outbound
sure you know and I mean you know I'm

(01:14:54):
confident that you will come through
this thing with flying colors like you
know it might go it's Gonna Hurt
probably oh it has hurt it does
you know but as you as you keep as you
keep grinding those teeth together and
they're not scratches
a dental hygiene has never been poor

(01:15:15):
um
it's yeah and I I sometimes we just have
that that hopeless optimism as
entrepreneurs as like keep marching
forward but at some point like you do
have to have the conversations like am I
just marching into the ground I think I
I did get to an actual low point where I
was like you know what
what we're doing is not working and I

(01:15:35):
just need a dramatic shift like
something's got to change because like
this is not this is not sustainable this
isn't working anymore and it takes like
hitting rock bottom to like actually
like Snap you out of like uh this is not
a good course we I I we are constantly
falling into these things where it's
like we try to draw Trends with like you
know here's what it's done historically

(01:15:55):
and all this stuff and so at the time
when we were flying high you know I was
operating with the best information I
had at the time
this is the trajectory that we are on
unfortunately like there was a
combination of things whether they're
Market driven or not or you know that I
just
You could argue maybe I didn't prepare
enough for you know maybe I didn't maybe

(01:16:17):
I was too uh too aggressive in investing
uh and reinvesting rather than like you
know growth you just said like now's
your time to diversify I would disagree
I still think you have a lot of work to
do just oh yeah the product that you
have oh absolutely I wasn't trying to
say like those are plans I was just I
know you want to yeah yeah yeah yeah

(01:16:37):
yeah in generalities but I mean I think
you know one of the things that has
helped me recently is the idea as an
entrepreneur of essentially building a
challenge network of individuals and I
mean this is something that this is how
this podcast came out between Pooch and
I like we started talking about some of

(01:16:58):
the challenges some of the things that
we were you know like going through
right
um but I I think there's actually some
really cool Merit to the idea of having
more individuals of of basically
challenging thinking through all of
these scenarios because if for for a
while like I actually just recently
started having a business counselor like

(01:17:21):
someone who comes in who's who's
basically counseled other founding CEOs
presidents whatever mentors and
mentorship coaching all very good
worthwhile things and and so so this
individual has been kind of coaching and
teaching me and for the longest time I
was of the mindset it's like we have to
keep moving forward we always just have

(01:17:41):
to keep moving forward in every blind
scenario yeah and in some cases like
this is where this Mentor said listen
sometimes you need to stop where you are
and you need to look and say I need to
backtrack yeah and you know like have
some what they call confident humility
here and say you have basically come up

(01:18:01):
on top of Mount stupid and you've now
realized it and instead of continuing to
March off the edge of the cliff you got
to go back down and you got to turn
around and you know basically he's this
individual's been helping me kind of
build up essentially a challenge network
of individuals that are challenging me
to go and do the next thing to get to
you know where I think you know I need

(01:18:22):
to be yeah um and there's no there's no
real clear path to do that that's but um
you know I think I think in many cases
like where you're at right now is this
is the perfect opportunity to challenge
yourself for future growth and continued
change
um you know I'm really I'm really
serious about having these come to Jesus

(01:18:44):
you know moments and I I don't know I I
hope this is interesting to you guys
because I'm not I'm really not trying to
be negative
um I I just think this is the kind of
thing that just doesn't get shared very
often because a lot of times there's
just too many sometimes there's legal
issues around like the negative things
that happen like when businesses are are
struggling or failing or whatever I

(01:19:04):
don't I again I don't think I don't feel
like I've failed I think that there's
opportunity here but like when I I'm
trying to step back and be like okay
what do I do well what do I not do well
what are my strength you know I do this
I love SWOT analyzes right like
strengths weaknesses opportunity threat
if you guys don't know what that is go
look it up very very easy exercise well

(01:19:25):
I don't say easy but it's it should be
an ongoing thing it should be something
you regular chicken like what are your
strengths what are your weaknesses what
are your opportunities what are your
threats whiteboarded out okay
um as a business that's completely
different than like what are pooch's
strengths weaknesses opportunities and
threats right and and right now like
there's a lot of overlapas as a business
and an individual I am yeah I am I am

(01:19:47):
one now so this is one in the same but
um but yeah no what the what resources
that I can bring to bear uh
um and what you know what energy what
gets me out of bed in the morning what I
do well what I don't do well
um you know all those things and and as
a as a human as a person like on uh on

(01:20:08):
the soft skills on the networking on the
sales the marketing the you know all
that stuff like I ain't gay I am engaged
as can be and I've had a decent amount
of success uh I am a very average to
below average
um like
uh manufacturer

(01:20:28):
um I would say my average product
designer maybe you know slightly well I
mean you know I don't know you could
rank all these things out um a manager
of people
I I think I'm a good interactor with
individuals but when it comes to
actually managing them I I'm willing to
admit I'm not as good as I think I
thought I was

(01:20:49):
um because I have pretty high
expectations and what I think I think
I'm communicating clearly
and I'm I'm not sometimes like some of
the struggles that I've had with
individuals that have worked for me in
the past I just get really irritated
when it's just like they don't get it
right
um and I thought I've conveyed it and

(01:21:09):
they just still don't get it or they
don't want to or they're being lazy or
whatever and like no man it's probably
partially just me not doing that stuff
and it's it's a drag there was there
were days where it's like I don't even
want to go and I don't want to deal with
these people
um which is not a healthy place to be
it's like avoiding your own avoiding
your own business of own business
because you're annoyed by the people
that are in it I mean like that you that

(01:21:31):
you've hired yeah that that's extreme
that's not really I'm being silly but I
mean I think I think we all have our
moments right where it's just like I
just I can't I can't be around you know
this clown this circus right now
um Ethan uh Coulter asks can I share if
I have thoughts of any alternative

(01:21:51):
directions
um yeah of course I have many thoughts
uh what I want to share at the moment
um I I'm just gonna say I'm evaluating
every opportunity I think as an
entrepreneur I'll just say this that um
uh I've always said that having to go
back to work for somebody else is it
feels like that would be failure to me

(01:22:13):
um and that's
that has got a huge asterisk next to it
depending on like what the capacity of
that is like I've actually found some
good success uh doing some Consulting
work in the in the short term so maybe
I'm not like directly employed uh like
collecting a paycheck doing the W-2

(01:22:33):
thing but like some of the collabs that
like you and I have done in some other
businesses uh and I think I brought a
lot of value uh in that in that front
and I think there's some opportunity
there uh I I enjoy it
um I actually like really
I mean I talk about how much I love
events like I I don't like a lot of

(01:22:54):
people hate travel and I'm like all
about it right now I mean like I want to
do I want to go to all the events I want
to talk to all the people I want to get
all the ideas I want to share all the
thoughts
um I want to do you know Partnerships
and collaborations and all that stuff
and having a network of other companies
with more resources to Bear uh is is is
beneficial for for what I'm doing in in

(01:23:15):
my business and and maybe in future
stuff too so maybe that's a you know
very generic comment
uh Windows this happens more than
regarding dealing with staff have hired
yeah staff is guys that that is a skill
set like being a manager
I know you want to talk for just a
really we're going long but I don't know

(01:23:36):
where you're at on time like
yeah I'm in the zone right now and I
feel like I wanna yeah I want to talk a
little bit more about it um when we talk
about managing people
you're you haven't you haven't gotten to
that yet really you're not not a glue
yeah not a glue
um in in my previous startup uh you know
I

(01:23:57):
Andrew thank you uh uh if I say I'm
going out of business will you guys
throw more money at us like uh that'd be
fine
um no we're not going out of business uh
Andrew thank you uh we're just uh
sharing some of the the the challenges
of the lean times of the summer
um I will say I'm like I'm refocusing
stuff I I went through some massive
contraction uh I had to do a layoff

(01:24:18):
there was only me and two other people
uh one of them I had to lay off over the
summer and then the other one just gave
me notice uh that he's moving on which I
you know happens uh so we're just
talking about refocusing and stuff like
that oh and we ran out of cash but we're
we're correcting we're not in the cash
though but but it's like this is these
are the hard times and we're just

(01:24:39):
sharing some hard times on my on my side
uh yeah in the hopes that maybe I can be
a cautionary tale to some of you guys
that's all uh but thank you for your
contribution with it is much appreciated
and and uh we don't make any money from
this type of thing this is a passion
project so we we do appreciate the
support that you guys send on this
yeah thank you I had I had Andrew
worried yeah uh okay

(01:25:01):
um okay so we're talking about managing
people yeah all that stuff um here's
here's what I want to lead you off with
yeah sure go ahead when we talk about
career advancement for a lot of people a
lot of you guys might have a nine to
five uh
and and we we look at career advancement
and at some point along your career
advancement you know thing you
inevitably most places start getting

(01:25:23):
looking at managerial roles right where
you're just gonna have you're gonna
start managing other people and other
people it's because because we're all
just pyramid schemes man this is what
these businesses that's it that's all it
is yeah yeah hey Vishal good to see you
buddy
um and so the the problem is is like
okay that that seems like what benefits
the business as you grow like if you can

(01:25:43):
manage these people and these people can
manage their people and those because
we're just building the pyramid right
and the CEO doesn't do anything with the
manufacturers baseball and you know
right right he's just yeah yeah so it's
we're all doing our multi-level
marketing and hopefully you work your
way to the top
um and
unfortunately like the you get to the

(01:26:04):
the buck does stop with you so it's like
well you might not be directly tied to
like what's happening and it's not your
fault if certain things happen it is all
your fault at some point when you get
all the way out of the top so that is
where a lot of your value and strategic
vision and stuff like that that seems
less tangible and tied to the dollar you
know the bottom line uh come but that
structure that is inherently built in is

(01:26:26):
kind of messed up because for people to
promote
they have to tap into skills that a lot
of people just don't have like being a
manager of people is a is a very
specific skill set and I would say most
people that get thrown into managerial
roles like either don't have the skills
or don't have the skills to learn that
or don't invest in learning that

(01:26:49):
um you know they may be great they may
have been a great engineer and product
designer but then they may be a terrible
manager of other engineer and product
designers as they promote
discuss
yeah so I mean here gloop we you know
we're still really small
um we haven't had uh we haven't made the
jump of hiring people but we're really

(01:27:10):
close like we should have hired a long
time ago but you know we just keep
reinvesting and you know we'll we'll get
there
um but my past previous startup uh you
know we at one time so there was some
there was some interesting you know uh
some Rises and Falls some Peaks and
valleys uh you know in that

(01:27:30):
um inner Peak we had like 17 people
um you know I was the founding CEO uh
and I had you know some people who were
direct reports and then I had people who
you know basically you know there was
like two levels essentially yeah you
know so you had me with the the couple
Executives that I had and we were all on
the board and then you would have uh you

(01:27:52):
know the engineers now I mean it was
small enough or I could talk with
everyone
um I knew back then I mean I was
19 20 years old I was a terrible manager
of people
um I you know I had no idea how to
manage people I had no idea how to tell
them you know what projects that we
needed to work on sorry how old did you

(01:28:14):
say you were at the time like 19 or 20
yeah wait a minute you're saying as a 19
year old you were a terrible manager of
people hmm yeah who would have thought
yeah
okay so what did you learn yeah yeah so
so what I learned is I had to hire
someone to do that
um and you know I had an individual who
I trusted to manage essentially what we

(01:28:37):
called there are junior Engineers okay
uh and you know while I got to work with
the more professional higher end
Engineers
um and even still like managing a team
of Engineers like people would look to
me like hey what is the next thing that
we're working on hey do we really need
um you know do we need to work on uh you

(01:28:59):
know this or we got this problem we have
to solve and in many cases like I I
wouldn't know what to do yeah yeah um
you know and like there were plenty of
times where it takes a lot of uh
interpersonal skills to be able to
communicate to people like hey like
you're not doing a great job at this you
need to do better but without blowing up
at them and yelling at them or

(01:29:21):
you know
um yeah yeah I mean causing causing
workplace issues
um it's something that I think that I've
I've learned from
um again I haven't really put those
still those new skills to the test okay
uh as we
as we continued so that was after our
our significant investment where we I

(01:29:42):
think we had a Million Dollar Round at
that point okay so we were we we were we
had some decent money some reserves and
then we went through a slight
contraction because we realized we're
going to go in a different direction
yeah
um and uh then we started uh you know
kind of expanding again uh got some new
people in uh but yeah you know it's you

(01:30:05):
know I know that it's going to be a new
chapter for us in gloop coming up and I
mean it's part where I'm actually scared
which is one of the reasons why I went
out and I got a business coach
um you know started having someone kind
of work with me a little bit more on the
the ins and outs of as we are changing
because I see exactly what's happening

(01:30:26):
and I'm terrified of what I don't know
like I I know that I've been through
some of this before but I'm still like I
don't know this and I need to and I need
to surround myself with the individuals
that know it better well and that's
that's the key that's the key right
there so the fact that you have that
awareness and you have the ability to do
that okay because I I got to tell you

(01:30:46):
I've always struggled to find good
mentorship and coaching uh and maybe you
know I could have invested more in that
or maybe I'm just looking at it
different because like I talk to a lot
of people about this stuff maybe I just
get that in a different way like I've
never had anybody that's specifically
like will you be my mentor you know the
way that I think a lot of people have
but what you honed in on uh that that

(01:31:08):
humility that that and all that
knowledge to know like when they're
always going to be blind spots
there's always going to be the things
you don't know you don't know how to
proceed and sometimes like you just have
to decide on something so sometimes
being a leader is just making the
decision right because sometimes the
indifference is is detrimental as well
uh in in terms of like your visibility

(01:31:30):
and Leadership if you're wishy-washy you
know I think a lot of times you might be
better at committing to a sub-optimal
course of action versus uh no action at
all right missing opportunities and and
things like that but man I mean the the
the the paths are are fraught with

(01:31:50):
danger in all all different you know
ways and stuff like that and that's
where sometimes I I don't like using the
word luck but you know sometimes some
luck there's you know some things that
are more fortuitous than others and
whatnot
um but yeah there is there are elements
of luck I guess to some extent uh but
you do need to be prepared for like
nothing is ever always going to go right

(01:32:11):
and how do you handle that and and
honestly like how you handle the down
times does prove like what it is and
sometimes as hard as it is to do the
layoffs like it did and stuff like that
it's just like you'll get respected more
for like
gotta survive driving us all flying us
all into the ground does nobody any good
right yeah

(01:32:33):
um you know I yeah I feel I feel bad
because I feel responsible for other
people but frankly I was taking on a ton
of stress and gray hair and sleepless
nights because I had too many dependents
both uh on my tax form and uh just in in
business and

(01:32:53):
um
I I couldn't I I wanted I wanted to be
able to provide for everybody but like
again I do nobody any good if I'm just a
complete stress ball that's that that's
hiding at home doesn't want to show up
at work and and all that stuff too so
yeah uh it's it's an interesting
challenge but thank you for sharing that
experience and and having that humility

(01:33:15):
and it's going to be interesting uh
going in you know as you start to grow
and realize you're gonna have to hire
again are you going to be able to like
what would your strategy be if I can ask
you
Journey for growth like are you gonna
hire like a GM because at some point
when you have limit you still have
limited research you're still small
you're bootstrapped so it's not like you

(01:33:38):
can just hire 10 people to grow nope
right you're counting on some of these
POS coming in maybe you take them to the
bank get a line of credit or you know
maybe you seek some Investments so that
you can expand rap more rapidly because
we're TR it's always trading time for
dollars there's always a trade-off yeah
I mean I think I think my strategy right

(01:33:58):
now is is is finding something that is
easy enough that I can well so let me
back up
um one of the big things about getting
some someone on board is making for sure
that there are clearly defined processes
outlined so that someone who doesn't

(01:34:20):
understand the business and how it
operates can perform a job or the the
duties requested uh so basically clearly
defining the rails or painting the lines
on the road and telling them these are
the rules of the road
um you know in a very limited capacity
we're probably going to start off really

(01:34:41):
small
um in something where we're going to
take in some employees to help us with
fulfillment Pick and Pack those sorts of
things
um that you know are are easy to kind of
get our get our feet wet with and as we
you know as we continue to grow
hopefully the opportunities that that
affords us of working on the business

(01:35:03):
instead of in the business
um we are going to hone some of those
managerial skills where we can become a
little bit better at at saying hey these
are the directions these are the things
that we need to go and we need to do and
eventually kind of work into
getting more individuals in to help out
better more multi-faceted

(01:35:25):
um you know these are going to be key
people uh that we're going to hopefully
have as we continue growing and moving
forward that you know can kind of morph
and do other various jobs depending on
what they you know what's required
so you know I certainly don't have all
of the answers
um and there are you know a bunch of
different ways that this could go

(01:35:45):
so
I think it sounds like a sound plan dude
and uh yeah uh it's it's always
interesting to say I'll be I'll be
interested to talk you know in in uh
yeah in practice how it goes versus you
know the theory here
um sometimes it's a luck of like getting
some just key Talent at the right time

(01:36:05):
finding uh people and and the dangers
when you're going through a growth a
rapid growth mode especially is you like
you're just trying to throw people at
the problem and my God is uh not a good
choice a lot of them and that's one of
the things where we haven't done like I
mean we've been growing at a a pretty
substantial clip and there are many

(01:36:26):
things where we probably need to throw
people at the problem but we're not
right now and I I think it's really
intentional uh simply because it that's
that it's like any entrepreneur like
I've I've gone through uh the Arts
grants program
um they're you know they have this idea
and they're like we just need money in
order to execute it right and the answer

(01:36:46):
is always no you don't don't just need
money there are times in which money
helps
um but in many cases you need to be
willing to put in the hard work and the
effort to actually get this thing going
on on what it is that you're doing like
you have to pass the filter test you
know um
I think that that's that's what this is

(01:37:07):
is like we we have to intentionally pass
this test and and basically grow in an
incremental step so that we can then
start putting fuel on top onto the fire
and accelerating that because if we just
start throwing people the problem I'm
going to be in the same boat that I was
in back in my early days because that's

(01:37:27):
exactly what I did and I didn't know how
to manage people and then I hired
someone and then you know things got
disconnected projects never got
completed and I was a terrible you know
manager at that point because I I was
naive I was young I didn't know any
better and then eventually the board
threw me out it's a it's a perfect storm
of of problems so I said when you're

(01:37:49):
young young and inexperienced so that's
always a challenge so the fact that you
were actually able to get Venture
funding at that age and people to back
your play is very impressive right time
and place everywhere
Mark Zuckerberg you know yeah the
wunderkind story yeah exactly
um so so you got that and now it's one

(01:38:09):
uh with Venture stuff it's it's stupid
easy to spend other people's money right
so like this is part of the reason like
I don't uh well it's not to say that
there's not play but like Venture
funding and what's important and like a
lot of stuff like they talk about being
pre-revenue like it's all about just
building attention and like who cares
about the money right now right like oh
it's easy of course it's easy for you to

(01:38:30):
spend money it's not your money
um but then when you combine that with
the fact that one of the most expensive
parts of operating the business the
payroll the people and you're you're
trying to navigate like okay we gotta we
gotta move quick right we gotta we gotta
you know we're gonna move fast and break
stuff I gotta hire a bunch of people and

(01:38:50):
that is like the last thing that you
want to do
um
mindlessly because having a bad fit in
the the toxicity that that can create in
the workspace and or even even if it's
just like the there's some people that
have like an incredible skills but

(01:39:10):
they're put in the wrong space they're
they're just not given the right role
right and so if you don't have that
ability to move the pieces around on the
board and and and do that and and that's
that's an art and like a lot of times
those things don't become apparent until
you're in process oh yeah so either you
have to have the resources to weather
that and realize like okay this is going

(01:39:31):
to take us like you know six months to
get everybody in the right seat okay
yeah or yeah and there's gonna be people
that nope that was wrong you know you
you have to be a little bit more
um Cutthroat I think about like nope
this isn't working out boom cut bait
like and that's
um that that maybe that's easier when

(01:39:52):
it's not your money I I don't know maybe
it's not maybe it's it's like well who
cares because like they're just it's
just coming out of the but your burn
rate and the things like we talk about
where it's I mean yeah you know that's
not to say that when you're uh when
you're a bootstrap I'll say that it was
easy to spend other people's money and
it got easier to be to the point where

(01:40:12):
even if it wasn't a great fit it didn't
matter to me because it's like well I
still see a value here or whatever and
that's where I was wrong
um and I needed to be a better
entrepreneur because you know I needed
to realize that this person wasn't fit
for that position and I needed to move
on or past it or I needed to get
something else in yeah

(01:40:33):
um and you know yeah that's the issue I
think in terms of it takes up it takes
someone who who knew more about being an
entrepreneur than I did at that moment
to to run that effectively I mean I feel
that there are you know a lot of things
I would have done differently and you
know maybe in five years time I'm gonna

(01:40:54):
look back to these days and be like wow
you know look at all of the things that
did terribly wrong yeah but that's the
process of growing I mean I think that
um one of the things that's really been
helping me a lot as an entrepreneur is
looking at things in a Craftsman mindset
um so basically becoming mastering these
skills
um in in specifically yeah okay uh you

(01:41:16):
know if we look at Craftsman you know
they take pride in their work uh and
it's always what they could do better
the next time uh you know every single
thing like whether it's a master you
know um cabinet maker or um you know
tabletops whatever it might be if you
talk with them like they'll take pride
in their work but they'll actually like
point out the issues of where they've

(01:41:37):
actually had like oh I could have done
this better I could have done this
better and it's part of this process
that they go through of Mastery and once
you start mastering these things it
actually becomes a passion and that's
what really kind of accelerates this
growth I feel like
um and for me I want to be a better
entrepreneur I want to be the best you

(01:41:59):
know what I'm doing now and part of that
really comes down to looking at all of
the things and understanding like yes I
have passion at doing glute but that I
think the passion is more so just me
learning and doing that hard work of
making myself better at this oh no
that's interesting so you're you're
saying that that

(01:42:20):
the value a lot of the value you're
getting out of this is that the proving
that you can build this is your greatest
make not that it's like uh making money
scaling gloop or whatever but like that
you can can I mean Master
entrepreneurship
yeah essentially I mean it's just what
can I do in this moment to make myself a

(01:42:42):
better entrepreneur what can I do in you
know the next moment to build upon those
skills and continue to become better at
this yeah like I want to be the best
that I can possibly be in in every facet
of this entrepreneurship piece and in
order to do that I've got to go through
the grind I've got to go through the

(01:43:02):
hard work I've got to put in this effort
and thinking like I call it this
Craftsman mindset because it's it's just
it's it's borrowing on the the aspect of
like what a Craftsman does you know
they're constantly in their shop they're
constantly working they're trying to
become better at doing the next thing
whatever it is
um you know so it just I don't know it's

(01:43:23):
it's an interesting perspective it's
given me some
some excitement I guess I I assume I see
what you're saying and like yes I I
think there's an element to that uh as
well I don't I don't think I've ever
thought of it as like honing
craftsmanship in the same way but I I
also don't operate with that mindset

(01:43:44):
because I'm a broad Strokes
individual like I get bored with Mastery
I I that's why I'm more of a generalist
right and so it's like I I want I want
to hone my craft to a specific level and
then I want to do other stuff well and
you know there's actually there's some
interesting things like this is one of
those conversations I've been having a
lot with this with this Mentor was

(01:44:05):
specifically like many people will reach
an acceptable level of performance and
leave it at that because they they find
this generalist but what you find is
with these individuals is they can never
they they typically fall into this trap
of chasing a passion project or chasing
something that they're passionate about
because they never can actually scratch

(01:44:25):
that itch fully and if you look at
athletes uh in many cases the athletes
that succeed and become the best
athletes in the world are the ones that
have these regimens that aren't really
changing treat basically training them
to be a better athlete it's training all
of other aspects of their own
personality to push through to persevere

(01:44:47):
in these challenges all right basically
constantly you know it's like working
out you're constantly going to the gym
you're constantly working out and in
many cases it my my wife's
um father is a bodybuilder and like I
never actually understood like only all
the times like I've had conversations I
always thought it was like ridiculous to
the level of commitment he had you know

(01:45:09):
for for this bodybuilding and it wasn't
until I actually kind of realized that
it wasn't that he was doing it to be a
better bodybuilder per se he was
actually trying to go through this
process to just it was it was a passion
of his that evolved out of bettering
himself can he do better can he make and
master this thing and that was the drive

(01:45:30):
you know and so
just really quick on this and then we we
speaking of Mastery we should give a
master class on how to turn a one-hour
podcast into a two-hour podcast that is
what we do when we get going but on the
subject of bodybuilding and personal
fitness uh I did a short word on this
like I don't know maybe a month or two
ago

(01:45:50):
um where I was musing around the
thoughts of like why that really
resonates with some people and I think
what it is specifically to bodybuilding
or to to just a high level Fitness is
that you have a visible physical
manifestation of your efforts in a way
that you just don't get with a lot of
other things right because there's so
much like that value it can be more

(01:46:12):
amorphous on other uh aspects like yeah
we we have metrics in terms of like oh
you know if I do this well like I'll
have this many dollars in my bank
account you know Financial metrics or or
whatever else but but it's like a way of
a pride where it's like if I put in this
work I I can I can show how much work
that I've been putting in and how

(01:46:32):
committed I am to something where other
people can visibly see that on me and
and and I have the add-on benefits of
being held to an extent right because
there's diminishing returns like some of
the best bodybuilders are
probably like overly excessive right
like but but again balance in all things
that's my that's my theory and I'm like

(01:46:53):
well
um
but again I would say like I don't know
if I want to achieve that level of
Mastery because at some point that just
gets like uh obsessive
well and and so I think I think again
there are there are pieces where people
can get distracted on what it is that
they're mastering uh again this is this
is all some of these things that I'm

(01:47:15):
learning myself as and I'm discovering
um you know so I'm not an expert in this
but what what I think it is it comes it
what it comes down to I believe is is
understanding that it's not the specific
thing that you're trying to master like
you know in in the Craftsman like I want
to master building the most elegant
table or being the best cabinet maker

(01:47:37):
what whatever that might be it's more so
I want to understand how to wield the
tools that I have at my disposal that
you know better than anyone else
um and become so good that I can take up
this next piece whatever it might be and
I can then master that because I have
the skill sets or I I have the ability

(01:47:57):
to to you know like the The Willpower if
you will to go through and do that
um
um George White had an interesting
comment that I I that strikes me in a
way he goes would a pessimist be good at
starting I think he's trying to say good

(01:48:18):
at starting a business
I would reframe that question slightly
and say like uh uh um do you require
optimism to be a successful entrepreneur
like take take it in the negative of
that
I don't know if I I'll offer my thought
you offer yours
uh I don't know if it's required but I

(01:48:39):
think it's
better if you do
to put it just completely generically
because if you're just doing this you're
not gonna do it yeah yeah
yeah I think
it's interesting right because
there was a point in my at starting this

(01:49:02):
I was
super optimistic I was wildly optimistic
yeah
um and I think in many cases having that
unfounding you know uh like optimism
like is what drives entrepreneurs
forward it's that piece that it's like I

(01:49:23):
am going to continue
moving like I I believe in this so much
um whereas if you're too pessimistic
it I think it would be difficult to get
started now that being said uh there's
many PL many places where I think I've
changed some of my viewpoints and I've
become quite pessimistic on on aspects

(01:49:45):
and I you know I don't know if it's
necessarily to an advantage or
disadvantage
um
you know I think that there's a balance
I think if you're too pessimistic that
you're not going to be able to get
started but if you're too optimistic
after you you've got you've gotten
started you can actually run into issues

(01:50:05):
and so you need to like dial that back a
little bit uh Krusty's point is probably
well taken and that I think it has more
to do with realism maybe than optimism
and pessimism like you gotta have a
reasonable dose of like what the
realities of the challenges are like
it's not always going to be easy yeah
it's it's a constant you're swinging

(01:50:27):
back and forth like I think it's good to
be skeptical about stuff sometimes like
sure just don't
the unbridled optimism is not great and
unbridled pessimism is not great right
but yeah realism uh that it's requires a
balance and all that stuff is is where
you want to be right
um yeah yeah
good question though

(01:50:47):
um I think we gotta find somewhere to
wrap it up because I can't even like if
we covered so much ground I think yeah
we probably both had some repressed
energy in terms of just things we wanted
to talk about and share and uh I'm glad
to see so many people jumping in and
some not so familiar at one point I saw
wex jump in and say hi which was cool to
see
um so we got some late comers and all

(01:51:08):
that stuff uh and Vishal I didn't even
get to he said uh the the chat was
really resonated with him because he's
going through some some um Manpower some
some uh Personnel issues and that's I
mean that again can be an episode to
itself uh managing of people is just
enough you know people are always the X
Factor in this and if you want to grow

(01:51:29):
there's only so far you can go by
yourself
uh so we'll we'll have to you know do
more of that later I would love to have
Vishal uh get on and share some of the
challenges and maybe talk through you
know what they learned and what he's
learning for it at some point I think
that would be good
um but I would say
let's let's try to wrap it here

(01:51:52):
um good episode lots of stuff I want to
thank you guys for just like letting us
vent and let me share you know my
journey and for all the people that are
supporting us whether it's Financial or
just being here asking questions and
contributing and saying hi and all that
stuff we love we love you all
um
um I I you know this is even though it's
still in the realm of a passion project

(01:52:13):
I do believe this is a very important uh
topic of conversation I think it's near
and dear I would love to see more and
more people
um you know take the leap when
appropriate with realistic expectations
and uh and you know we'll keep we'll
keep them coming I've got a queue of uh
some people that I'm reaching out to for
some awesome future guest spots which is

(01:52:35):
good
um and you know we'll continue to refine
the offering but as always please engage
with us our Twitter handles and our
social media handles are down below if
you want to hear us talk about stuff
if you like what you hear if you don't
like what you hear all that stuff
excuse me too much talking
um until then I want to wish everybody a

(01:52:57):
happy weekend
uh spend some time get out talk to
people engage find your
um mentorship and and your coaching
where you can I think that's a good
takeaway and uh get that face time in
that's another good takeaway from today
and we look forward to seeing any of you
as upcoming events uh Earth being the
next one out on the East Coast uh and uh

(01:53:19):
we will catch you on the next maker that
money uh here next Friday we're going
I'm getting your commitment right now
Andrew next Friday 9am
on the YouTubes uh after the fact on all
the major podcasting platforms
and we will talk to you soon
happy weekend everyone bye-bye

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