August 26, 2024 • 33 mins
In this episode of Making Our World Better, host Jay Clark engages in a riveting conversation with Dr. Christine So, CEO and President of Humentum. With over 30 years of leadership experience in the global nonprofit sector, Dr. So shares invaluable insights into leadership, collaboration, and the power of operational excellence. Whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your career, this episode is packed with actionable advice and inspiration to help you make a meaningful impact. Tune in to discover how Dr. So is making our world better, one organization at a time.
This podcast was brought to you by JC Charity Services – positivity is THE competitive advantage and as a Jon Gordon Certified Power of Positive Trainer, I would love to bring that competitive advantage to your organization – you can find me at www.makingourworldbetter.com or jay@jccharityservices.com – let’s connect and talk about it.
To learn more about Dr. Sow and Humentum, visit www.humetnum.org and check out these links:
https://humentum.org/about-us/a-collective-journey-to-equitable-development/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
After working all over the world to advocate for others, Dr.
Christine So shares a masterclass in leadership you will love and her incredible
vision and drive to change the global nonprofit sector on this episode of Making Our World Better.
Welcome to the Making Our World Better podcast, where you will find motivation
(00:22):
and encouragement through lively conversations with inspirational people who
every day are making our world a better place.
Now, here's your host, Jay Clark.
Welcome to the podcast. I am Jay Clark, and one of my favorite things about
this podcast is celebrating amazing women leaders like Dr.
Christine So, the CEO and president of Humentum, where she helps humanitarian
(00:46):
and development organizations be better.
With more than 30 years of leadership experience, 15 of which were spent in Africa, Dr.
So has earned recognition for working across different sectors to build collaboration
and identify opportunities for growth.
Notably, she led the relaunch of the Global Health Council, the U.S.-based membership
(01:07):
organization that supports and connects global health advocates and stakeholders.
She also led the rollout of Population Services International's global strategy
across its 60-plus county offices. Wow.
She earned her undergraduate degree from from Vassar University to master's
degrees from the University of Michigan and her doctorate from Tulane University.
(01:28):
Wow. She has led teams ranging from a three-person startup to overseeing a staff
of more than 4,000 and has worked in more than 20 countries worldwide.
And I can't wait to get into all of this. Dr. So, welcome and thank you so much.
Thank you so much. I'm excited to speak with you. And I'm just going to insert one little correction.
Please. When you were We're talking about Population Services International's strategy.
(01:52):
You said 60 counties instead. Oh, it's 60 countries. Indeed.
And I just thought that was important to make the distinction because I know
you've got listeners who are working domestically in the U.S.,
but that was really something we were doing across the global audience.
I just can't wait to learn. But let's start simple. And I'd love for you to
(02:14):
talk a little bit about Humentum and its mission.
Sure, of course. I was actually just telling my neighbor the other day what
I do, and that was exactly the way I was explaining it.
Your elevator, right? Your elevator. Exactly, yeah.
So Humentum is a global nonprofit. Okay.
(02:34):
And we actually work with the organizations that do the global development and humanitarian work.
So, you know, big organizations like CARE and Save the Children and Oxfam,
as well as a lot of smaller organizations that work locally and nationally in
countries all over the world that you may not have heard of.
(02:55):
What we do is we help organizations get out of their own way.
You know, nonprofit full of people who want to deliver on mission,
who want to make the world a better place, make an impact.
And frequently, their organizations aren't set up in a way to allow them to
really do that optimally.
(03:16):
And so, Humentum works on the operations side of things.
We are not a third-party vendor. We don't do anybody's books for them.
We help them organize themselves into operating models that help them deliver their missions.
And our specialty is to really think about creating operating models that help
(03:39):
an organization be more equitable, resilient, and accountable.
Because we believe that anybody working in this sector has got to be somebody
who believes in being equitable, being resilient, and being accountable.
And what a great foundation to build off of. And, you know, you've obviously
(03:59):
had a very fascinating journey, and I'd love to dig into it a bit more.
And find out, really, what led you to this type of work and what led you to do it all over the world?
Well, so I am from Michigan. I live in Michigan now, actually,
because Humantum is a global organization.
And so I was able to come back to where I grew up.
(04:23):
But I had parents who were geography professors and had lived in the Middle East and in Africa.
And so when I was a kid, I heard all these stories, but actually wasn't going to any of those places.
So as soon as I could, I started traveling. And that was the best thing that
could have happened to me.
And in my travels, I was able to meet just an incredible array of people and,
(04:47):
you know, really be challenged about my beliefs and, you know,
really get to see different perspectives of how the world works.
And first and foremost for me has always been just a personal commitment and
passion about social justice.
And then second was realizing that my social justice isn't necessarily somebody else's. And so...
(05:13):
I need to let, you know, people need to speak for their own truth.
And the reason I got into public health was that I went to places where I saw
especially women being really preoccupied by their own health,
their children's health.
And because of that, they weren't able to be advocates and, you know,
(05:34):
work towards their community's health because they were so busy just taking care of the day to day.
Right. And so for me, getting into public health was a way to help people be
healthier, help them prevent things that would make them poorer and sicker.
And by freeing them up, they could become advocates for their own situations.
(05:56):
So that's how I got into public health. I worked in public health globally for
25 years and really enjoyed that work.
But somebody that I had worked with previously came to me and said,
Humantum's looking for a CEO.
Would you consider it? And I looked at what Humantum does and I thought, this resonates.
(06:18):
I mean, talk about a perfect fit. Yeah, because I was like, I have,
you know, beat my head against that wall of hypocrisy and systems that don't work.
And now I get to lead an organization that is committed to helping others do their work better.
That's so fantastic. Well, you've worked on collaborating and implementing some
(06:41):
major policies and initiatives that really have had global impact.
Impact so can you think of any examples of
strategies or ways that you've come up with solutions
that you could share that that really any leader could copy from and and use
in different situations yeah i mean i think the first thing that comes to mind
(07:04):
is you know policy leaders and organizational leaders we have big visions and And
We are good at visioning. We're not necessarily so good at making those visions
become reality, at operationalizing the visions.
And so the first thing I would say is, you know, really think about your team.
(07:27):
You can't do this by yourself.
You need a team that can work with you and look for people who are more operationally minded.
And, you know, if you can put together a team or just have a couple of people
who work with you who really help you translate that vision into reality,
that is incredibly important.
(07:48):
If you just have a vision and you're out there trying to do it all yourself,
chances are that you're going to find it hard making that application happen.
The second thing, which I think is equally, if not more important,
is that to make any vision vision happen,
you've got to be talking to, and especially listening to the stakeholders who
(08:14):
are affected by whatever it is you want to do.
And so that means, you know, casting a wide net of the folks that you're talking to.
It means shutting up and just listening and really parking your ego and parking
your ideas and saying, okay, this is where I'd like to start the conversation.
(08:38):
Now you guys take it forward and let me listen to where you're taking it.
And, you know, don't be afraid to make course corrections.
Don't be afraid to say, hey, we tried this first version of this.
And what we're hearing from the folks who are involved is that it's not working
the way we thought it was going to work and we need to reset.
(09:00):
And there's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong with it is if you say, oh, this was my idea.
And, you know, my ego is wrapped up in this and therefore I can't take a step
backwards and, you know, just take a pause, take a beat and rethink how we're doing this.
So I think having, you know, humility, empathy and really good listening skill,
(09:22):
hearing skills, listening skills is important.
Okay, so I want everybody to hit that go back button about four times and listen
to that over and over. I can't wait to listen to that again.
So many great lessons there, especially about listening.
And again, this is what you're doing every day with Humentum now,
bringing this perspective to your clients, correct?
(09:44):
That's correct. And a really important part of the Humentum model is that we build community.
And so we actually provide structured space for peer-to-peer discussion and learning.
We have monthly roundtables. We have working groups.
We don't develop pretty much anything on our own.
(10:07):
We take what we hear in those groups, and then we build that into the products
and services that we provide.
And, you know, again, I can give you an example. We have a course that we've
offered for many years on working with the U.S. Agency for International Development.
And now that we are working with more local and national organizations in Africa in particular,
(10:32):
we're hearing from them that they appreciate
that course but that it's not quite right for
their needs it's really oriented more towards an international non-profit audience
and so we've been talking to those folks we've been hearing from them and we
are now working on a new version of that course that will be really oriented
(10:55):
to what we've heard them express as their needs
because, you know, we don't want round peg in a square hole.
We want to be really aligning and giving them the support and the right kinds
of resources that are going to help them take themselves forward.
Which is awesome. And I'm guessing that since you've seen so much and been everywhere
and done all this use, you can spot when somebody's trying to fit a square peg
(11:21):
into a round hole pretty quickly.
Yeah. And I would say that I remind people, you know, an example,
For example, when I arrived at Hument, I was told frequently that,
oh, we're not working with these local organizations because everything we offer is too expensive.
And I was like, a lot of these organizations have funders who will pay for this stuff.
Right, to make them better. I think that what we're offering isn't resonating
(11:44):
with them because we're offering the same thing to them that we're offering
to this international organization model.
And so we've done a lot of listing and a lot of work over the last couple of years.
And that has helped us create a new set of offerings for local and national
organizations that really incorporate what they need.
(12:06):
And so, yeah, so we have to, we have to listen to the clients and,
you know, not, not get caught up in our own model, but really give them what they need.
Well, and building on that a little bit, you know, listening to some of these
huge projects that you've implemented and been involved with and collaborated
(12:26):
on 60 countries and rolling out these big initiatives,
you know, what really has helped you be successful in those humongous programs?
You know, I really try to work from a starting point of what are the principles
that we're trying to uphold?
What are our values? How do we work to make sure that we are true to our values
(12:50):
and true to those principles.
And that becomes kind of the North Star in the work that we're doing.
And so, I mean, you've mentioned, you know, yeah, doing something across 60
countries. How do you do that? How on earth do you do that?
You have a clear message and you have clear principles and you have a clear
set of values and you say, that's our starting point.
And now, you know, we'll expand from there and we've got things that we need all of you to be doing.
(13:16):
And And in that case, you know, yes, every country needs to think about how
they adapt this one thing, this one strategy to what they're doing.
But we say to them, the starting point is what are our values?
What are our principles?
So at Humentum, we have five core values and we incorporate them into everything that we do.
(13:38):
We have reworked our internal performance system to be really oriented around those five values.
We have monthly all-staff meetings where we go over the five values at the beginning,
and we always have an icebreaker where we go into small groups and talk about the values.
We encourage people to, you know, we have a kudos channel in our Slack workspace,
(14:02):
and we encourage people to give examples of how their colleagues are working on the values.
We have identified one of our values which people struggle with,
which is we ask the tough questions and people are like, how do I do that?
I need help to really ask tough questions.
So we have a whole program that we've put together that we, you know,
(14:26):
have different levels of engagement
with, but, you know, people can engage with that program to, you.
Improve, how they ask tough questions. And, you know, so having that kind of
unified set of small set of points that everybody can,
you know, focus on then helps the more complex work to happen.
(14:50):
Again, so many great lessons there. And one thing I love about that,
I'm a big values guy, so I love it.
But one thing I love about it is these projects you're working on,
And, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day.
So these projects must just take years, if not, you know, months and months and years.
So to maintain that drive, you have to have those values that you can continually
(15:13):
lean on. So I just love that.
Yes. A lot of this is long term and a lot of this is like just small incremental progress.
And so sometimes it's hard to see how it's going. But do you have that vision?
And okay, this is our North Star. Just keep that in mind.
To have that leading the way is awesome. So if you could say,
(15:36):
what is an outrageously audacious goal that you have for Humantum?
So we actually have a 10-year target, which now is for 2033.
And our 10-year target is to be engaged with 20,000 NGOs, nonprofits,
helping them have equitable, resilient, and accountable operating models.
(15:59):
And right now we're at about 1500 so
we've done the math we know that working
incrementally working on a
linear progression we're never going to going to
get to 20 000 and so we are right now just about to start a new three-year strategy
where you know i keep saying this is the strategy where we bend the elbow we
(16:24):
have to go from linear progression to exponential progression and there's There's
going to have to be technology.
There's going to have to be catalytic stuff happening to get us into that exponential progression.
And so that is audacious. And I actually have written on my whiteboard in front
of me, we need more audacity. That was my word of the year.
(16:46):
I've been saying to everybody, audacity, we've got to be audacious.
I love it. This last thing on that is that we chose 20,000 because we wanted
to have a target where we We felt that if we can attain this,
we are going to be influencing the sector,
not just individual organizations.
(17:07):
And so we're like, okay, if we can get to 20,000, we're going to be influencing the sector.
I love it. Well, you touched on the technology a little bit,
and I'd love to get your opinion on or your perspective on the role of data
in decision making and how that has kind of evolved over the years.
(17:27):
And, you know, maybe examples of how you guys are now using that to help people
make decisions? Well, I will say...
I think that most organizations struggle with data.
Agreed. And if they say they're not, they're probably fooling themselves or fooling you.
We struggle with it. And we have had, I've been at Humantum almost five years,
(17:49):
and we've probably had five different data projects since I've been there.
I think we're starting to get our arms around it. And that's exciting.
And we have absolutely over the last two years, two, two and a half years,
taken a new approach to how we use data.
We have a weekly dashboard that we go over in each one of our teams.
(18:13):
So at the leadership level, we've got a high level dashboard,
but it is set up as the metrics on that dashboard are leading indicators.
Indicators so if we see that
we are not hitting our targets if we're in the red we
actually make what's called an issue and then
we explore the issue as a team to figure out what needs to happen to correct
(18:37):
that indicator and so you know so that's one way that we're using data a second
way that we're using and really developing our data is in our database of the
partners that we we work with,
and getting better about our analytics of who we're working with, what their needs are,
how we're engaged with them, and really using that for decision making.
(19:02):
I think the next question that inevitably comes talking about technology these
days is artificial intelligence and machine learning.
And we are exploring that as well.
We're just starting a partnership with an AI startup.
That we're excited about to try and put together some stuff that is going to
(19:24):
help that use that AI approach to create.
The outcome we're hoping for is alleviating administrative burden for organizations
and do the same thing ourselves.
And so, you know, really looking at what kind of technology can help us both
internally and then help us in the work that we do with our external partners.
(19:47):
Well, I love it because a lot of your external partners probably don't have
the capability or the knowledge or, you know, to take advantage of all that.
And that's, again, something else that that you can bring to them, which is fantastic.
And again, sector transforming, right? That's the, that's great.
But I love to ask this question. If you could go back and have conversation with Dr.
(20:10):
So, who's just starting her career, what lessons have you learned that you wish
you could impart on your younger self?
Okay, the corny one is don't sweat the small stuff.
You know, I think I, like many, many people, could get really wrapped up in,
you know, the, the details or somebody's rubbing me the wrong way or whatever.
(20:33):
And, you know, just having a thicker skin and, you know, just saying,
keep true to your values, keep true to your vision.
You know, and I think this is also, I'm in my fifties.
I love being in my fifties because I just don't care as much about those kinds of things.
And I was talking to somebody this morning who I mentor, and she's looking at
(20:57):
having a career transition and was asking me about that.
And she said, you know, oh, I think I'm going to be lined up to get this other
position, but I don't think I have enough experience yet.
And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not the way you should be looking at this.
You should be looking at this by, is that something that excites you?
Is the prospect of having that job exciting to you? Does it make you,
(21:22):
you know, are you passionate about what you would be doing?
And if the answer is yes, go for it. The first thing that happens is you don't get it.
But, you know, don't start from a position of saying, oh, I don't have enough experience.
I love that. And I'm not going to do it. and I
will say actually I have always been
(21:43):
good at kind of leaping into things that
I was not necessarily totally prepared
for which took me into really interesting work and so I'm pleased that I was
able to do that but I think that I did suffer from the stress of like getting
caught up in all the details when I could just take a deep breath and a step
(22:03):
back and and you know enjoy the ride a little bit more. Well, that's great.
It obviously has taken you all around the world, which is incredible.
But you've been doing this for a minute now, this type of work.
So what really keeps you energized and excited about the future?
So one thing that's always kept me energized is making that difference.
(22:25):
And so I have sought out jobs where I was in a position of, I call it power,
authority, to be able to make decisions that I thought were the right ones that
then made things happen.
And when I was working in global health, it was about like funding technical programs.
(22:45):
Now it's identifying issues that I'm hearing from, you know,
our clients need attention and saying, yeah, let's work on that.
And, you know, it's funny because the thing that I'm most passionate about these
days is something that surprises people when I talk about it,
because I'm an epidemiologist.
(23:05):
I come from, you know, medicine and public health perspective.
We have a global initiative that we are leading,
but it is a huge global collaboration to develop the world's first international
nonprofit accounting guidance to be made into national accounting standards
(23:30):
for countries that don't have accounting standards.
I love it. In the US, we have nonprofit accounting counting standard. But.
We were doing the math the other day, and we guesstimate that 90% to 95% of
the world's countries do not have accounting standards for nonprofits.
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So that means that nonprofits are flailing around trying to define accounting terms,
and they're asked by their funders to report back to the funders,
but they don't actually have a standardized way to do it.
It wastes everybody's time and it causes a lot of confusion.
(24:13):
So we are leading this effort and we will be launching this guidance next year.
And so now the next stage of this is to get the guidance out there,
being adopted at the country level and helping organizations and funders adopt it for use.
And so I'm passionate about that because I see something that is going to change
(24:38):
the way we all work. Absolutely.
And I am personally committed to making sure that it doesn't just sit on a shelf,
that all of this effort and investment.
I mean, we have engagement by more than 14,000 people of us from 169 countries.
Wow. This is serious stuff. So we've got to make it happen.
(25:02):
And so that's what I'm embarking on for the next, you know, our new strategy.
That's part of our new strategy. So that's three years. But I mean, this thing.
Is going to be a 10-year effort. Right.
And my colleague who's actually leading the initiative, she's like, this is my life's work.
(25:24):
And I'm feeling the same. And so that just makes me passionate because I'm so
energized because I'm like, it's more than the grain of an idea.
I mean, we've got something and now we have to make it happen all over the world
because it's going to make a difference to all of these nonprofits.
Everywhere. I was going to say, think of the impact that has just beyond having
(25:48):
a balance sheet that people can read.
Think of the impact that will have on communicating with funders and creating
more opportunities for people to support these organizations doing great work.
And if I can plug it, so the guidance is going to be called INPAG, I-N-P-A-G, IG,
(26:08):
and I can share the references with you, but the initiative is called IFR4NPO,
and people can go and Google that and see all about it.
Oh, my gosh. It's everybody to get engaged.
That is, I will be checking that out for sure, because again,
even domestically here, and you see it, I'm sure, every day with your clients,
(26:30):
people are befuddled by the numbers.
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's what, you know,
I get talking about this. And recently I was talking to a journalist about this
and he's like, well, you're an accountant.
So I was like, no, I'm an epidemiologist.
That's great. So, you know, And, you know, the excuse, well,
(26:51):
I'm not a numbers person that, that doesn't work.
Well, and that's why this particular initiative is so important because it's
going to provide standardized reporting formats.
You know, it's going to provide stuff that, like, I'm talking to you about this.
I bet you're not a numbers guy either. Like, I don't know. Sorry if you are.
But, you know, but we get it. All you have to do is say, like,
(27:13):
oh, this thing, and everybody gets it because everybody struggles with it.
That's beautiful. I love it. But as we wind down, I try to respect your time.
I'd love to ask my last four questions.
The first one is, what is something you will read, listen to, or watch today?
So, well, the first thing that comes to mind is I have been watching the Democratic
(27:36):
National Convention every night.
And I have found the speeches so incredibly inspiring.
And I suspect I will go back to one of those today. Who could you point to as
a role model for you in your career?
I have had so many, and I always struggle with this because there are lots of
them, just because so many different ways to work.
(27:59):
I'm going to say there was a woman I worked with in Mali in West Africa. Her name is Dr.
Binta Keita, and she was a Malian physician.
She passed away a number of years ago now. But when I was in Mali and I was
younger in my career and younger in my own personal self, she was a mentor for me.
(28:23):
And she ended up being the director of the National Health System.
And she's somebody that I worked with side by side.
I was with USAID and then I was with UNICEF working with her on policy stuff.
But she would she supported me
and she advised me but she would also gently correct me
if you know if i was about to like step on
(28:46):
a landmine she would pull me aside like don't do that and i think with great
fondness of her and i'm so fortunate to have had that guidance from her well
i'm sure she's very proud that you're paying that all forward now but other
than humantum is Is there an organization out there?
This is a tough one. Is there an organization out there that you really admire
(29:08):
the work that they're doing or want to give a shout out to?
So I'm going to give you two. This isn't tough for me at all. Right. One is a.
An organization in Africa, in Mali. It's called Mali Health, M-A-L-I Health dot org.
And Mali Health is 20 years old.
(29:29):
They work in peri-urban areas of Bamako, which is the capital city of Mali.
Mali is one of the poorest countries in the world. Bamako is one of the fastest-growing
capital cities in the world.
Peri-urban areas have very poor people and not a lot of services,
And Molly Health does extraordinary work with communities, families,
(29:52):
but especially moms and their kids.
And in the last 10 years, they have had no maternal or child deaths.
Wow. The area is just extraordinary. Unheard of.
So I'm going to encourage everybody to go look them up and donate if you can. Yeah.
In the U.S., the organization that I think is doing amazing work.
(30:14):
And I've supported as I could for many years is called Fuji's Family,
F-U-G-E-E-S, like refugee.
And this is an organization that started in Atlanta working with kids who were
from refugee families in Atlanta.
They have an incredible origin story. They now have their own private school
(30:39):
charter academy where these kids go to school, they go on to college.
They realize that they can't just
help the kids because the kids go home and the families have
a lot of issues so now they have community programs and just do amazing work
so in the u.s that's the one i would choose family sounds like a future podcast
yes oh yeah they have a great founder she would be wonderful to talk to i will
(31:04):
run her down but my last one probably most Most importantly,
people want to learn more about you, more about Humantum, learn more about MPEG.
InPag, yep. What's the best way? Well, so, Humantum has a website.
InPag is on the ifr4npo.org website.
(31:27):
And what I would recommend is we use a lot of video.
And so, you can go on either website and find animated videos as well as short
video interviews and testimonial videos.
That you can watch in five minutes and that can really orient you to what we're
(31:50):
doing, why we're doing it.
And then there's all sorts of places that can take you in terms of learning more.
But we have really, one of our core values is we meet you where you are.
And so we try to present our information in many different ways and styles and
for people who learn differently.
So I'd say start with the videos and then take it from there.
(32:13):
We will put all that in the show notes for sure, Dr.
So. I feel like I've just had a masterclass in leadership. Thank you so much.
I wish you the best and hope that you can pull off your audacious visions and change the sector.
Thank you. Well, I wake up every day happy to do this.
So I think that is just, you know, the biggest blessing I can have in life.
(32:38):
Thanks for listening. And thanks to Dr. So for the many leadership lessons I
can't wait to listen to again and implement.
This podcast was brought to you by JC Charity Services.
Positivity is the competitive advantage. And as a John Gordon certified power
of positive trainer, I'd love to bring that competitive advantage to your organization.
(32:58):
You can find me at makingourworldbetter.com or jay at jccharityservices.com.
Let's connect and talk about it. To learn more about Dr.
So and Humentum, visit humentum.org and check the show notes for links regarding
the International Financial Reporting for Nonprofit Organizations Act,
Malley Health, and Fuji's Family.
(33:20):
If you enjoyed this podcast, we'd be grateful if you'd share it with a friend.
Until next time, I hope you're inspired to find a way to make our world better.
Music.
After working all over the world to advocate for others, Dr.
Christine So shares a masterclass in leadership you will love and her incredible
vision and drive to change the global nonprofit sector on this episode of Making Our World Better.
Welcome to the Making Our World Better podcast, where you will find motivation
(00:22):
and encouragement through lively conversations with inspirational people who
every day are making our world a better place.
Now, here's your host, Jay Clark.
Welcome to the podcast. I am Jay Clark, and one of my favorite things about
this podcast is celebrating amazing women leaders like Dr.
Christine So, the CEO and president of Humentum, where she helps humanitarian
(00:46):
and development organizations be better.
With more than 30 years of leadership experience, 15 of which were spent in Africa, Dr.
So has earned recognition for working across different sectors to build collaboration
and identify opportunities for growth.
Notably, she led the relaunch of the Global Health Council, the U.S.-based membership
(01:07):
organization that supports and connects global health advocates and stakeholders.
She also led the rollout of Population Services International's global strategy
across its 60-plus county offices. Wow.
She earned her undergraduate degree from from Vassar University to master's
degrees from the University of Michigan and her doctorate from Tulane University.
(01:28):
Wow. She has led teams ranging from a three-person startup to overseeing a staff
of more than 4,000 and has worked in more than 20 countries worldwide.
And I can't wait to get into all of this. Dr. So, welcome and thank you so much.
Thank you so much. I'm excited to speak with you. And I'm just going to insert one little correction.
Please. When you were We're talking about Population Services International's strategy.
(01:52):
You said 60 counties instead. Oh, it's 60 countries. Indeed.
And I just thought that was important to make the distinction because I know
you've got listeners who are working domestically in the U.S.,
but that was really something we were doing across the global audience.
I just can't wait to learn. But let's start simple. And I'd love for you to
(02:14):
talk a little bit about Humentum and its mission.
Sure, of course. I was actually just telling my neighbor the other day what
I do, and that was exactly the way I was explaining it.
Your elevator, right? Your elevator. Exactly, yeah.
So Humentum is a global nonprofit. Okay.
(02:34):
And we actually work with the organizations that do the global development and humanitarian work.
So, you know, big organizations like CARE and Save the Children and Oxfam,
as well as a lot of smaller organizations that work locally and nationally in
countries all over the world that you may not have heard of.
(02:55):
What we do is we help organizations get out of their own way.
You know, nonprofit full of people who want to deliver on mission,
who want to make the world a better place, make an impact.
And frequently, their organizations aren't set up in a way to allow them to
really do that optimally.
(03:16):
And so, Humentum works on the operations side of things.
We are not a third-party vendor. We don't do anybody's books for them.
We help them organize themselves into operating models that help them deliver their missions.
And our specialty is to really think about creating operating models that help
(03:39):
an organization be more equitable, resilient, and accountable.
Because we believe that anybody working in this sector has got to be somebody
who believes in being equitable, being resilient, and being accountable.
And what a great foundation to build off of. And, you know, you've obviously
(03:59):
had a very fascinating journey, and I'd love to dig into it a bit more.
And find out, really, what led you to this type of work and what led you to do it all over the world?
Well, so I am from Michigan. I live in Michigan now, actually,
because Humantum is a global organization.
And so I was able to come back to where I grew up.
(04:23):
But I had parents who were geography professors and had lived in the Middle East and in Africa.
And so when I was a kid, I heard all these stories, but actually wasn't going to any of those places.
So as soon as I could, I started traveling. And that was the best thing that
could have happened to me.
And in my travels, I was able to meet just an incredible array of people and,
(04:47):
you know, really be challenged about my beliefs and, you know,
really get to see different perspectives of how the world works.
And first and foremost for me has always been just a personal commitment and
passion about social justice.
And then second was realizing that my social justice isn't necessarily somebody else's. And so...
(05:13):
I need to let, you know, people need to speak for their own truth.
And the reason I got into public health was that I went to places where I saw
especially women being really preoccupied by their own health,
their children's health.
And because of that, they weren't able to be advocates and, you know,
(05:34):
work towards their community's health because they were so busy just taking care of the day to day.
Right. And so for me, getting into public health was a way to help people be
healthier, help them prevent things that would make them poorer and sicker.
And by freeing them up, they could become advocates for their own situations.
(05:56):
So that's how I got into public health. I worked in public health globally for
25 years and really enjoyed that work.
But somebody that I had worked with previously came to me and said,
Humantum's looking for a CEO.
Would you consider it? And I looked at what Humantum does and I thought, this resonates.
(06:18):
I mean, talk about a perfect fit. Yeah, because I was like, I have,
you know, beat my head against that wall of hypocrisy and systems that don't work.
And now I get to lead an organization that is committed to helping others do their work better.
That's so fantastic. Well, you've worked on collaborating and implementing some
(06:41):
major policies and initiatives that really have had global impact.
Impact so can you think of any examples of
strategies or ways that you've come up with solutions
that you could share that that really any leader could copy from and and use
in different situations yeah i mean i think the first thing that comes to mind
(07:04):
is you know policy leaders and organizational leaders we have big visions and And
We are good at visioning. We're not necessarily so good at making those visions
become reality, at operationalizing the visions.
And so the first thing I would say is, you know, really think about your team.
(07:27):
You can't do this by yourself.
You need a team that can work with you and look for people who are more operationally minded.
And, you know, if you can put together a team or just have a couple of people
who work with you who really help you translate that vision into reality,
that is incredibly important.
(07:48):
If you just have a vision and you're out there trying to do it all yourself,
chances are that you're going to find it hard making that application happen.
The second thing, which I think is equally, if not more important,
is that to make any vision vision happen,
you've got to be talking to, and especially listening to the stakeholders who
(08:14):
are affected by whatever it is you want to do.
And so that means, you know, casting a wide net of the folks that you're talking to.
It means shutting up and just listening and really parking your ego and parking
your ideas and saying, okay, this is where I'd like to start the conversation.
(08:38):
Now you guys take it forward and let me listen to where you're taking it.
And, you know, don't be afraid to make course corrections.
Don't be afraid to say, hey, we tried this first version of this.
And what we're hearing from the folks who are involved is that it's not working
the way we thought it was going to work and we need to reset.
(09:00):
And there's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong with it is if you say, oh, this was my idea.
And, you know, my ego is wrapped up in this and therefore I can't take a step
backwards and, you know, just take a pause, take a beat and rethink how we're doing this.
So I think having, you know, humility, empathy and really good listening skill,
(09:22):
hearing skills, listening skills is important.
Okay, so I want everybody to hit that go back button about four times and listen
to that over and over. I can't wait to listen to that again.
So many great lessons there, especially about listening.
And again, this is what you're doing every day with Humentum now,
bringing this perspective to your clients, correct?
(09:44):
That's correct. And a really important part of the Humentum model is that we build community.
And so we actually provide structured space for peer-to-peer discussion and learning.
We have monthly roundtables. We have working groups.
We don't develop pretty much anything on our own.
(10:07):
We take what we hear in those groups, and then we build that into the products
and services that we provide.
And, you know, again, I can give you an example. We have a course that we've
offered for many years on working with the U.S. Agency for International Development.
And now that we are working with more local and national organizations in Africa in particular,
(10:32):
we're hearing from them that they appreciate
that course but that it's not quite right for
their needs it's really oriented more towards an international non-profit audience
and so we've been talking to those folks we've been hearing from them and we
are now working on a new version of that course that will be really oriented
(10:55):
to what we've heard them express as their needs
because, you know, we don't want round peg in a square hole.
We want to be really aligning and giving them the support and the right kinds
of resources that are going to help them take themselves forward.
Which is awesome. And I'm guessing that since you've seen so much and been everywhere
and done all this use, you can spot when somebody's trying to fit a square peg
(11:21):
into a round hole pretty quickly.
Yeah. And I would say that I remind people, you know, an example,
For example, when I arrived at Hument, I was told frequently that,
oh, we're not working with these local organizations because everything we offer is too expensive.
And I was like, a lot of these organizations have funders who will pay for this stuff.
Right, to make them better. I think that what we're offering isn't resonating
(11:44):
with them because we're offering the same thing to them that we're offering
to this international organization model.
And so we've done a lot of listing and a lot of work over the last couple of years.
And that has helped us create a new set of offerings for local and national
organizations that really incorporate what they need.
(12:06):
And so, yeah, so we have to, we have to listen to the clients and,
you know, not, not get caught up in our own model, but really give them what they need.
Well, and building on that a little bit, you know, listening to some of these
huge projects that you've implemented and been involved with and collaborated
(12:26):
on 60 countries and rolling out these big initiatives,
you know, what really has helped you be successful in those humongous programs?
You know, I really try to work from a starting point of what are the principles
that we're trying to uphold?
What are our values? How do we work to make sure that we are true to our values
(12:50):
and true to those principles.
And that becomes kind of the North Star in the work that we're doing.
And so, I mean, you've mentioned, you know, yeah, doing something across 60
countries. How do you do that? How on earth do you do that?
You have a clear message and you have clear principles and you have a clear
set of values and you say, that's our starting point.
And now, you know, we'll expand from there and we've got things that we need all of you to be doing.
(13:16):
And And in that case, you know, yes, every country needs to think about how
they adapt this one thing, this one strategy to what they're doing.
But we say to them, the starting point is what are our values?
What are our principles?
So at Humentum, we have five core values and we incorporate them into everything that we do.
(13:38):
We have reworked our internal performance system to be really oriented around those five values.
We have monthly all-staff meetings where we go over the five values at the beginning,
and we always have an icebreaker where we go into small groups and talk about the values.
We encourage people to, you know, we have a kudos channel in our Slack workspace,
(14:02):
and we encourage people to give examples of how their colleagues are working on the values.
We have identified one of our values which people struggle with,
which is we ask the tough questions and people are like, how do I do that?
I need help to really ask tough questions.
So we have a whole program that we've put together that we, you know,
(14:26):
have different levels of engagement
with, but, you know, people can engage with that program to, you.
Improve, how they ask tough questions. And, you know, so having that kind of
unified set of small set of points that everybody can,
you know, focus on then helps the more complex work to happen.
(14:50):
Again, so many great lessons there. And one thing I love about that,
I'm a big values guy, so I love it.
But one thing I love about it is these projects you're working on,
And, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day.
So these projects must just take years, if not, you know, months and months and years.
So to maintain that drive, you have to have those values that you can continually
(15:13):
lean on. So I just love that.
Yes. A lot of this is long term and a lot of this is like just small incremental progress.
And so sometimes it's hard to see how it's going. But do you have that vision?
And okay, this is our North Star. Just keep that in mind.
To have that leading the way is awesome. So if you could say,
(15:36):
what is an outrageously audacious goal that you have for Humantum?
So we actually have a 10-year target, which now is for 2033.
And our 10-year target is to be engaged with 20,000 NGOs, nonprofits,
helping them have equitable, resilient, and accountable operating models.
(15:59):
And right now we're at about 1500 so
we've done the math we know that working
incrementally working on a
linear progression we're never going to going to
get to 20 000 and so we are right now just about to start a new three-year strategy
where you know i keep saying this is the strategy where we bend the elbow we
(16:24):
have to go from linear progression to exponential progression and there's There's
going to have to be technology.
There's going to have to be catalytic stuff happening to get us into that exponential progression.
And so that is audacious. And I actually have written on my whiteboard in front
of me, we need more audacity. That was my word of the year.
(16:46):
I've been saying to everybody, audacity, we've got to be audacious.
I love it. This last thing on that is that we chose 20,000 because we wanted
to have a target where we We felt that if we can attain this,
we are going to be influencing the sector,
not just individual organizations.
(17:07):
And so we're like, okay, if we can get to 20,000, we're going to be influencing the sector.
I love it. Well, you touched on the technology a little bit,
and I'd love to get your opinion on or your perspective on the role of data
in decision making and how that has kind of evolved over the years.
(17:27):
And, you know, maybe examples of how you guys are now using that to help people
make decisions? Well, I will say...
I think that most organizations struggle with data.
Agreed. And if they say they're not, they're probably fooling themselves or fooling you.
We struggle with it. And we have had, I've been at Humantum almost five years,
(17:49):
and we've probably had five different data projects since I've been there.
I think we're starting to get our arms around it. And that's exciting.
And we have absolutely over the last two years, two, two and a half years,
taken a new approach to how we use data.
We have a weekly dashboard that we go over in each one of our teams.
(18:13):
So at the leadership level, we've got a high level dashboard,
but it is set up as the metrics on that dashboard are leading indicators.
Indicators so if we see that
we are not hitting our targets if we're in the red we
actually make what's called an issue and then
we explore the issue as a team to figure out what needs to happen to correct
(18:37):
that indicator and so you know so that's one way that we're using data a second
way that we're using and really developing our data is in our database of the
partners that we we work with,
and getting better about our analytics of who we're working with, what their needs are,
how we're engaged with them, and really using that for decision making.
(19:02):
I think the next question that inevitably comes talking about technology these
days is artificial intelligence and machine learning.
And we are exploring that as well.
We're just starting a partnership with an AI startup.
That we're excited about to try and put together some stuff that is going to
(19:24):
help that use that AI approach to create.
The outcome we're hoping for is alleviating administrative burden for organizations
and do the same thing ourselves.
And so, you know, really looking at what kind of technology can help us both
internally and then help us in the work that we do with our external partners.
(19:47):
Well, I love it because a lot of your external partners probably don't have
the capability or the knowledge or, you know, to take advantage of all that.
And that's, again, something else that that you can bring to them, which is fantastic.
And again, sector transforming, right? That's the, that's great.
But I love to ask this question. If you could go back and have conversation with Dr.
(20:10):
So, who's just starting her career, what lessons have you learned that you wish
you could impart on your younger self?
Okay, the corny one is don't sweat the small stuff.
You know, I think I, like many, many people, could get really wrapped up in,
you know, the, the details or somebody's rubbing me the wrong way or whatever.
(20:33):
And, you know, just having a thicker skin and, you know, just saying,
keep true to your values, keep true to your vision.
You know, and I think this is also, I'm in my fifties.
I love being in my fifties because I just don't care as much about those kinds of things.
And I was talking to somebody this morning who I mentor, and she's looking at
(20:57):
having a career transition and was asking me about that.
And she said, you know, oh, I think I'm going to be lined up to get this other
position, but I don't think I have enough experience yet.
And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not the way you should be looking at this.
You should be looking at this by, is that something that excites you?
Is the prospect of having that job exciting to you? Does it make you,
(21:22):
you know, are you passionate about what you would be doing?
And if the answer is yes, go for it. The first thing that happens is you don't get it.
But, you know, don't start from a position of saying, oh, I don't have enough experience.
I love that. And I'm not going to do it. and I
will say actually I have always been
(21:43):
good at kind of leaping into things that
I was not necessarily totally prepared
for which took me into really interesting work and so I'm pleased that I was
able to do that but I think that I did suffer from the stress of like getting
caught up in all the details when I could just take a deep breath and a step
(22:03):
back and and you know enjoy the ride a little bit more. Well, that's great.
It obviously has taken you all around the world, which is incredible.
But you've been doing this for a minute now, this type of work.
So what really keeps you energized and excited about the future?
So one thing that's always kept me energized is making that difference.
(22:25):
And so I have sought out jobs where I was in a position of, I call it power,
authority, to be able to make decisions that I thought were the right ones that
then made things happen.
And when I was working in global health, it was about like funding technical programs.
(22:45):
Now it's identifying issues that I'm hearing from, you know,
our clients need attention and saying, yeah, let's work on that.
And, you know, it's funny because the thing that I'm most passionate about these
days is something that surprises people when I talk about it,
because I'm an epidemiologist.
(23:05):
I come from, you know, medicine and public health perspective.
We have a global initiative that we are leading,
but it is a huge global collaboration to develop the world's first international
nonprofit accounting guidance to be made into national accounting standards
(23:30):
for countries that don't have accounting standards.
I love it. In the US, we have nonprofit accounting counting standard. But.
We were doing the math the other day, and we guesstimate that 90% to 95% of
the world's countries do not have accounting standards for nonprofits.
(23:52):
So that means that nonprofits are flailing around trying to define accounting terms,
and they're asked by their funders to report back to the funders,
but they don't actually have a standardized way to do it.
It wastes everybody's time and it causes a lot of confusion.
(24:13):
So we are leading this effort and we will be launching this guidance next year.
And so now the next stage of this is to get the guidance out there,
being adopted at the country level and helping organizations and funders adopt it for use.
And so I'm passionate about that because I see something that is going to change
(24:38):
the way we all work. Absolutely.
And I am personally committed to making sure that it doesn't just sit on a shelf,
that all of this effort and investment.
I mean, we have engagement by more than 14,000 people of us from 169 countries.
Wow. This is serious stuff. So we've got to make it happen.
(25:02):
And so that's what I'm embarking on for the next, you know, our new strategy.
That's part of our new strategy. So that's three years. But I mean, this thing.
Is going to be a 10-year effort. Right.
And my colleague who's actually leading the initiative, she's like, this is my life's work.
(25:24):
And I'm feeling the same. And so that just makes me passionate because I'm so
energized because I'm like, it's more than the grain of an idea.
I mean, we've got something and now we have to make it happen all over the world
because it's going to make a difference to all of these nonprofits.
Everywhere. I was going to say, think of the impact that has just beyond having
(25:48):
a balance sheet that people can read.
Think of the impact that will have on communicating with funders and creating
more opportunities for people to support these organizations doing great work.
And if I can plug it, so the guidance is going to be called INPAG, I-N-P-A-G, IG,
(26:08):
and I can share the references with you, but the initiative is called IFR4NPO,
and people can go and Google that and see all about it.
Oh, my gosh. It's everybody to get engaged.
That is, I will be checking that out for sure, because again,
even domestically here, and you see it, I'm sure, every day with your clients,
(26:30):
people are befuddled by the numbers.
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's what, you know,
I get talking about this. And recently I was talking to a journalist about this
and he's like, well, you're an accountant.
So I was like, no, I'm an epidemiologist.
That's great. So, you know, And, you know, the excuse, well,
(26:51):
I'm not a numbers person that, that doesn't work.
Well, and that's why this particular initiative is so important because it's
going to provide standardized reporting formats.
You know, it's going to provide stuff that, like, I'm talking to you about this.
I bet you're not a numbers guy either. Like, I don't know. Sorry if you are.
But, you know, but we get it. All you have to do is say, like,
(27:13):
oh, this thing, and everybody gets it because everybody struggles with it.
That's beautiful. I love it. But as we wind down, I try to respect your time.
I'd love to ask my last four questions.
The first one is, what is something you will read, listen to, or watch today?
So, well, the first thing that comes to mind is I have been watching the Democratic
(27:36):
National Convention every night.
And I have found the speeches so incredibly inspiring.
And I suspect I will go back to one of those today. Who could you point to as
a role model for you in your career?
I have had so many, and I always struggle with this because there are lots of
them, just because so many different ways to work.
(27:59):
I'm going to say there was a woman I worked with in Mali in West Africa. Her name is Dr.
Binta Keita, and she was a Malian physician.
She passed away a number of years ago now. But when I was in Mali and I was
younger in my career and younger in my own personal self, she was a mentor for me.
(28:23):
And she ended up being the director of the National Health System.
And she's somebody that I worked with side by side.
I was with USAID and then I was with UNICEF working with her on policy stuff.
But she would she supported me
and she advised me but she would also gently correct me
if you know if i was about to like step on
(28:46):
a landmine she would pull me aside like don't do that and i think with great
fondness of her and i'm so fortunate to have had that guidance from her well
i'm sure she's very proud that you're paying that all forward now but other
than humantum is Is there an organization out there?
This is a tough one. Is there an organization out there that you really admire
(29:08):
the work that they're doing or want to give a shout out to?
So I'm going to give you two. This isn't tough for me at all. Right. One is a.
An organization in Africa, in Mali. It's called Mali Health, M-A-L-I Health dot org.
And Mali Health is 20 years old.
(29:29):
They work in peri-urban areas of Bamako, which is the capital city of Mali.
Mali is one of the poorest countries in the world. Bamako is one of the fastest-growing
capital cities in the world.
Peri-urban areas have very poor people and not a lot of services,
And Molly Health does extraordinary work with communities, families,
(29:52):
but especially moms and their kids.
And in the last 10 years, they have had no maternal or child deaths.
Wow. The area is just extraordinary. Unheard of.
So I'm going to encourage everybody to go look them up and donate if you can. Yeah.
In the U.S., the organization that I think is doing amazing work.
(30:14):
And I've supported as I could for many years is called Fuji's Family,
F-U-G-E-E-S, like refugee.
And this is an organization that started in Atlanta working with kids who were
from refugee families in Atlanta.
They have an incredible origin story. They now have their own private school
(30:39):
charter academy where these kids go to school, they go on to college.
They realize that they can't just
help the kids because the kids go home and the families have
a lot of issues so now they have community programs and just do amazing work
so in the u.s that's the one i would choose family sounds like a future podcast
yes oh yeah they have a great founder she would be wonderful to talk to i will
(31:04):
run her down but my last one probably most Most importantly,
people want to learn more about you, more about Humantum, learn more about MPEG.
InPag, yep. What's the best way? Well, so, Humantum has a website.
InPag is on the ifr4npo.org website.
(31:27):
And what I would recommend is we use a lot of video.
And so, you can go on either website and find animated videos as well as short
video interviews and testimonial videos.
That you can watch in five minutes and that can really orient you to what we're
(31:50):
doing, why we're doing it.
And then there's all sorts of places that can take you in terms of learning more.
But we have really, one of our core values is we meet you where you are.
And so we try to present our information in many different ways and styles and
for people who learn differently.
So I'd say start with the videos and then take it from there.
(32:13):
We will put all that in the show notes for sure, Dr.
So. I feel like I've just had a masterclass in leadership. Thank you so much.
I wish you the best and hope that you can pull off your audacious visions and change the sector.
Thank you. Well, I wake up every day happy to do this.
So I think that is just, you know, the biggest blessing I can have in life.
(32:38):
Thanks for listening. And thanks to Dr. So for the many leadership lessons I
can't wait to listen to again and implement.
This podcast was brought to you by JC Charity Services.
Positivity is the competitive advantage. And as a John Gordon certified power
of positive trainer, I'd love to bring that competitive advantage to your organization.
(32:58):
You can find me at makingourworldbetter.com or jay at jccharityservices.com.
Let's connect and talk about it. To learn more about Dr.
So and Humentum, visit humentum.org and check the show notes for links regarding
the International Financial Reporting for Nonprofit Organizations Act,
Malley Health, and Fuji's Family.
(33:20):
If you enjoyed this podcast, we'd be grateful if you'd share it with a friend.
Until next time, I hope you're inspired to find a way to make our world better.
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