“Don’t You Dare Apologize for the Military”: Admiral James Ellis on Veterans Day, Honoring Service

If you’re confused about the differences between Veterans Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day here in America, you’re not alone. Decades of government meddling and mixed messages have blurred the lines between honoring those who once served their country, those still on active or reserve duty, and those who made the ultimate sacrifice for freedom’s cause. Admiral James Ellis, the Hoover Institution’s Annenberg Distinguished Visiting Fellow, reflects on his nearly forty years of service on land and at sea (naval aviator, aircraft carrier "skipper" and head of the United State Strategic Command), the challenges facing veterans as they re-enter civilian life, plus ways to properly honor and improve the lives of America’s sizable veterans community. 

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
- It is Friday, November 7th, 2025.
And welcome back to Matters of Policy
and Politics at HooverInstitution Podcast.
I'm Bill Whalen. I'm theVirginia Hobbs Carpenter
distinguished policyfellow in journalism here
at the Hoover Institution.
But I'm just one of several Hoover fellows
who are in the podcasting game these days.
I recommend you go to our website,
which is hoover.org/podcast
and check out what all we have to offer.

(00:25):
We do, gosh, we do economics,we do foreign policy,
we do domestic policy.
We also have an audio versionof the Goodfellows program
that I am proud to saythat I get to moderate.
So definitely go check outour podcast menu for you.
So today with the upcomingVeterans Day in Mind, we're going
to talk about service in the armed forces
and the challengesfacing those individuals
who transition out of military life.

(00:45):
Joining me to discussthis is a Hoover Fellow
who not only served as countrywith great distinction,
but each year helps decide which men
and women serve for one yearas a Hoover veteran Fellow
Admiral James Ellis is theHoover Institutions Annenberg
Distinguished Visiting fellow
where he oversees the HooverInstitution's Global Policy
and Strategy Initiative
and the George P. SchultzEnergy Policy working group,
a graduate of the UnitedStates Naval Academy.

(01:06):
Jim Ellis achieved the rank
of Full Admiral in all nearlyfour decades of service.
It took him from Naval Aviatorto aircraft carrier Skipper
and Commander of Carrier Strike Groups.
And finally, commander
of the United States Strategic Command.
Admiral Ellis, thank you for your service
and thank you very much forcoming on the podcast today,
and I hope you're enjoying your,
your time at the Hoover Institution now,
your land-based endeavors.

(01:27):
- I'm enjoying it very much,
bill, and thanks for the welcome.
And I've been now here for13 years, believe it or not,
and I learn much everyday from interacting
with folks like you and the other fellows
and hopefully contributein some small way.
But it's a great place to be
and I'm proud to be a part of it.
- You definitely do. So Iknow you're a very modest man,
so I'm gonna test your modesty here
and ask you to talk a bit about yourself.

(01:49):
So the first thing about Jim Elli
that I discovered I wasdelighted to see, is
that you hail fromSpartanburg, South Carolina.
I have a particular fondnessfor that city Admiral Ls,
because A, I have family thatlived nearby in Greenville,
but BI drive A-B-M-W-X five.
And you wanna knowwhere that car was made,
- Spartanburg?
- Exactly. It's a fascinating to go there

(02:09):
and see the assemblyline, by the way. Yeah,
- That is, it is. I've done that once.
- Alright, so the NavalAcademy, you're a Navy class
of 1969.
- That is true. Long agoin a galaxy far away.
- How did you end up inAnnapolis? Where do you come from?
A Navy family or?
- I did Bill, my father was a World War II
vintage naval aviator.

(02:31):
He, after demobilization,he went home to Spartanburg
where I was born,
and then he looked around at Spartanburg,
which was then a verysmall town, no, BMW plants
or hurst fibers or any of the other things
that empower it today.
And he decided it wasa little bit confining.
And so he went back in the Navy
and did 25 more years as a, as a reservist

(02:51):
or actually trainingreservist at air stations
up and down the East Coast.
And so I grew up in the Navy,
- So we have something in common.
My, my father was ROTC through UVA,
and he did only four years of active duty,
but then he did reserves for,gosh, about 30 years, I think.
- Yeah, well, as, as I often note,
and as a son of the South,you'd appreciate it though.
I think the accent has long since left.

(03:11):
Both of us, you know,
they don't talk about being in the
military or being in the Navy.
They talk about being in the service and,
and I like that term,
and that's often a theme
that I touch on in VeteransDay celebrations such
as we'll have next week becauseit really is about service
and in a lot of different ways.
And so it was a, it was a realtreat to, to be born there.

(03:34):
Years later, I was askedto be the Grand Marshal
of the Veterans Dayparade in South Carolina.
And I was quick to point out
that I left South Carolinaat the age of one and a half,
and you'll excuse myaffectation of the accent.
They said, Admiral, it doesn't matter.
It's where you were Bowen, that counts.
- So they said, so actuallyno, I grew up in Washington,
DC Arlington, Virginia.
So that's when I was growingup, that was kind of the tip

(03:56):
of the South, if you would,
if you would drive into Manassas,
you would suddenly theaccidents would get very thick.
But now, you know, the, the south,
I'd say like my recedinghairline, the south,
I think the South might startaround the North Carolina,
South Carolina bordering it. It's gone.
- Oh, I think you're right.I think you're right.
- One other thing aboutgrowing up in DC Admiral was
that my father
and I would take verydelightful father-son trips

(04:17):
and DC is kind of a midway point
between Philadelphia and Norfolk.
So we would take trips up to Philly
to enjoy American history,see some baseball,
and see what was then a veryimpressive reserve fleet
sitting in mothballs there for my father,
this is very sentimental
because he was on the Iowaon a mid shipment crew.
Wow. So we actually went on the Iowa,
and then we go down toNorfolk and go on the base.

(04:40):
And I remember as a little boybeing I oppressed by the fact
that my father is a reserveofficer would be saluted.
That just really blew you away.
But you talk about an innocentpre nine 11 age admiral,
you could actually drive up
to the destroyer submarinepeers parked nearby, walk out,
and the fellow on watch, if you said,
can we come on board and look around?
Yeah, they'd let you on boardand let you look around. So

(05:03):
- Yeah, those are great old ships.
And I remember I was in theNavy when we brought them back,
as you recall, as partof the Reagan buildup
approaching a 600 ship Navy.
And it was astounding to,to go through those spaces
and you had actually open drawers of,
of the main space in the engine room
and find letters that those that
actually sealed the space up

(05:23):
before it went into mothballs left convinced
that the ship would come back someday.
And these are the thingsyou need to remember,
which valves leak, whichgauges don't exactly
work, those kinds of things.
So it was quite a, a quite atreat to be a part of those
that reactivation.
- When I was young, what attractedme to the Navy was, first
of all the technology,
but then secondly, theuniformity, the just

(05:44):
how the men were dressed, butalso the ships decked out,
but also the names back ina, in a more innocent age.
Again, Navy ships had akind of logic to them.
Ships were states, cruiser, city,
and I just wrote a piece wherewhoever's defining ideas on
this recently, and I'm very bothered by
how they're naming the Fordclass carriers right now.
It started out with thepresident, then we've shipped over

(06:06):
to Dory Miller
and now we put in a ship of theline at the Enterprise right
before Joe Biden left office,the Navy Secretary named one
after George W. Bush, andnow one after Bill Clinton.
There's not a lot of rhymeor reason here, it seems.
- Well, I'm a traditionalistby nature, not, not a lot.
I I understand the needfor progress and the like,
but I'm like you, I think therewas a, an apolitical way to,

(06:28):
to commemorate some of ourgreat naval history embodied in
those, in that naming architecture.
Everybody understood it.
I mean, submarines were fish
and, you know, all those kinds of things.
And we've kind of lost a lot of that.
And again, maybe that'sthe way things are going,
but there are days when I look back
and say, you know, itwas a lot simpler then.
And sometimes simplicity is good.

(06:49):
- I did a little digginginto the Naval Academy class
of 1969.
Do you know how many members of your class
achieved flag rank?
- I don't know how many were Flag rank.
I think I'm the only four star though.
- That is correct. You'rethe only four star.
So eight actually became Navy admirals
and three became Marine Generals.
- Yep, yep.- Is that about normal
for a class out of Annapolis?

(07:11):
- That's a little light. You know,
that was a transitionaltime as you recall,
where the Vietnam War was tailing down.
I caught the tail end ofthat in early days of my,
my fighter business flyingoff of aircraft carriers and,
and so a lot of folks left.
And so, you know, it's a,it's can be a numbers game
after a while, and theforce was shrinking.

(07:31):
Those were not easy times.
The Navy was kind of in theprocess of rebuilding and,
and the like from some, somechallenges that the Navy
and the nation faced in that timeline.
And so those of us thatstayed, perhaps the,
the opportunity was biggerfor those that that remained.
- Okay. So one little factorwe tucked away into your
biography is that you did time at Top Gun?

(07:52):
- I did. And I'd never met Kelly McGillis.
She was not there at the record show.
Yeah, I was one of the early classes,
I think I was class number eight.
Top Gun was formed as, youknow, in the darker days
of the Air War over Vietnam
and where the loss rate wasnot all it could or should be,
and, and basically wasinstituted to reverse that,

(08:13):
which it succeeded in doing.
So I was pleased to be selected.
It's a little different than the
model that you see in the movies.
You don't go to Token and then go off
to some top secret missionto, to bomb this or that.
It really is a train the trainer approach
where a very few oneper squadron, if you're,
if you're lucky, getsselected to go to Top Gun
and they come back and be the squadron,
become the squadron'straining officer essentially,

(08:34):
and hopefully bring that knowledge back
to everyone else in the squadron.
So it's a, it's a great opportunity.
I was very fortunate to have it,
and it's always a line
that gets a little recognitionin the resume, I have to say.
- And do you like the movies?- I do.
You know, the first one wasa little bit over the top,
a little more humanizing of the, the,
the protagonist in the second.

(08:54):
So, so I liked that
and he was flying the airplane
that I last flew on active duty,the Hornet, so I could kind
of relate to that as well.
- Yeah, I think the key is that it's
entertainment at the end of the day.
You have to just kind of tell yourself
that the Navy probably is not chock full
of 60-year-old test pilots
and most people areinvolved in a plane crash
or a plane is going to Mach 10.
They they don't come out in one piece.
- No, they do not. They do not.

(09:15):
Even though the, the scenein the diner was wonderful.
- Okay, we'll get to VeteransDay here in a moment,
bit Admiral, but tellme a little bit about
what you're doing here at Hoover.
Explain what the global policyand strategy initiative is.
- Well, we put together,
when the Late Secretary Schultzwas, was, was still with us
a an architecture.
One of the things that Jim Mattis
and a few of us that wereworking in the national security

(09:36):
space early in, you know, overabout a decade ago, actually
before Jim left to becomeSecretary of Defense, offered
that we might be able to support the,
the National security conversationif we had an architecture
on which to hang participants, not to try
and capture everybody'sproject or program,
but if folks needed help

(09:57):
or they needed a Chapo, ifyou will, to cover them,
that might be nice to have an architect.
So we call it the, you know,
national Security working group.
And, and then, you know,we decided to evolve that
late in the secretary's time,
and I looked for a title thatI thought was appropriate.

(10:17):
Global policy and strategy were
kind of what we're talking about.
And it's no coincidence that GPS
or George Schultz'sinitials, so Condi said,
are you sure you don'thave a marketing degree?
When I presented the namechange proposal to her,
and I assured her I did not.
But that's what it's become.
And it's a, it's a broadarea under which we put a lot
of things, you know, maritimesecurity in the Indo-Pacific,

(10:37):
some of the Indo-Pacificsecurity dialogues
that we have in supportof the active forces
and the project on Taiwanand the Indo-Pacific.
And so it's kind of a, a broad, as I say,
framework for, for that.
It doesn't include everybody.I mean, HR has his very active
and very effective programs.
And so I'm not implying that I,

(10:58):
I am the national securityguru, but because I live here,
because I work here, my wifeis a professor at Stanford and,
and the, like, I'm around.
And so I'm kind of the caretakerof that and proud to be.
So the other thing I do isthe, I chair the energy policy,
the Schultz Energy Policyworking group, again sponsored
and funded generously by Tom Stevenson

(11:19):
to represent the late secretaries
and his interests in,in all things energy.
And we just finished a,a two day conference,
very successful in Dallas, for example,
with very senior representationtalking about the energy
issues such as powering I AI and,
and some of the naturalgas challenges in Europe
that, that confront us.
So again, that's kind ofthe broad scope, you know,

(11:40):
I find myself every day coming to work to,
to look at issues that are important.
They're timely, they're focused,
and in some small way hopefully enable
or contribute to the conversations and,
and the learnings that can come from that.
- I think energy is a great
and underappreciated topic in this regard.
It played a roundabout issuein the recent New Jersey
Governor's race becauseelectricity is becoming very

(12:01):
expensive in New Jersey, inthe Virginia Governor's race.
It's kind of a sleeper topic
because Virginia is becomingvery aggressive in trying
to get ai, well, AI requires just a ton
of electricity, is that question.
But then you go into Europe, Admiral,
I was watching a reallyfascinating documentary the other
day on the rise of the a FD in Germany.
This is the, you know, right,
- Right- Germany.
And it's very disturbing.

(12:22):
There are a lot of Nazi parallels
in terms of their messaging.
And the question is, what isturning people onto the a FD?
And it's a combinationof feeling just kind
of isolated and lonely.
You don't really trustyour political class,
but energy also plays a role in hearing
that there's a pushbackagainst green energy.
- Yeah, well we've seen the a a, you know,
very visible shift, notjust on the political side,

(12:44):
but on the, on the reality side.
I mean, George Schultz used to talk
to us about a three-legged
stool when you talked about energy.
You know, the, the environmentalpiece was always there,
the economics piece, not just, you know,
the affordability element of it,
but how do you make this work?
How do you make it a, a viable
enterprise over the long term?
And then finally, thenational security piece
or the sec energy security piece

(13:05):
and the emphasis on theenvironmental has not gone
away and shouldn't go away.
But it's very clear that affordability
and reliability are two of the big issues
that are confrontingus in this nation and,
and our internationalsecurity partners abroad.
And not only that, some ofour adversaries as well,
I mean China this yearwill consume one third
of the, the Globe's energy.

(13:25):
And so those thingsaffect all of the, the,
the residents of this planet.
And how we get that policyright in a, in a time
of change is, is somethingwe think is very important.
As I say, far too oftenpeople are beginning to,
to blanch a little bit, but, you know,
energy security is nationalsecurity in a very real sense.
- Well put. Alright,

(13:46):
let's talk a littlebit about Veterans Day.
If you go back and look atthe history of this holiday,
it is a good example ofgood intentions clashing
with government meddling in this regard.
I trace this back to Novemberof 1919, A wood world Wilson
wants to have a dayhonoring World War I, right?
November 11th, 1918, the armistice.

(14:06):
So here's what Wilson says,quote to us in America,
the reflections of ArmisticeDay, which is what he calls it,
will be filled with solemn pride
and the heroism of those whodied in the country's service
and with gratitude for the victory
because of the thing fromwhich it has freed us and
because of the opportunityhe has given America
to show her sympathywith peace and justice.
In other words, what Wilsonis talking about in 1990s,
1919 is common an American version

(14:27):
of Remembrance Day in the uk,
absent the absent wearing of the puppies.
The problem with this iswhen you honor the dead in
November, you're kind of stepping on
what is called now calledMemorial Day in May.
Exactly, which dates back toabout 1868 when people started
putting flags and flowerson Civil War. Graves
- Then called DecorationsDay, as I recall.
- Exactly. So then we move forward

(14:49):
to 1938 when Pharmacist Capital A,
capital D becomes an actual holiday.
But then we move forward to 1954 Admiral.
And now America has been involvedin two conflicts overseas.
World War ii, your father wasinvolved in and Korea as well.
So now Pharmacist Day, well,
it doesn't really reflectKorea and World War ii.
So what do you do? You lookfor something different.

(15:11):
And so Congress decidesto call it Memorial Day,
which is all fine until 1968 Admiral,
when Congress gets involved
and Congress is looking at,
ab is looking at holidays on Monday.
So what it comes up with isit calls the Uniform Holiday
bill, which makes Veteran's Daya federal holiday, a Monday,
great, but it assigns it tothe fourth Monday in October,

(15:34):
which doesn't sit wellobviously with people who want
to tie this in November,world War One, right?
So we now move forward aboutanother decade to 1978,
where it's now returnedto November the 11th.
So what we have now is we havea Veteran's Day in November.
We have a Memorial Day inMay with those, don't forget
that we have Armed Forces Day,
which is on the thirdSaturday in May as well
to honor those currently serving.

(15:55):
So we have three holidays tohonor military service, past,
present, and, and future, if you will.
But it's kind of confusing.
And by the way, adding to this,the Now Department of War,
I have a hard time not callingit DODI don't know if you
struggle with this as well,but it's technically now the
Department of War, and here's
how they describe Veterans Day,quote, veterans Day Honors,
all of those who have servedin the country of war and war

(16:16):
and peace, dead or alive,
although it's largely intended
to thank living veteransfor their sacrifices.
- Yeah, yeah, no, it, it's, itis a bit confusing and, and,
and people conflate the the two,
and you know, I get lots of,you know, congratulations,
thank you for yourservice on Memorial Day.
And I, hey, it's not aboutme, is my, my response,
because I do believe that has a

(16:38):
fundamentally different focus.
And that's on those we lost.
And I've, you know, as weall have, I've known a lot
of people and had a lot offriends that, that are no longer
with us as a result of that.
And so I I kind of approachit a little bit differently.
I mean, that's a sadder time.
I mean, not, not morosely sad,
but just one of ofquiet reflection for me,
even though it kind of flies in the face

(16:58):
of the picnics in the holidays
and the kicking off of the summer
and all the things that,that always get ascribed to,
to Memorial Day Veterans Day is, you know,
a little bit different for me.
And, and, and I recognizeeverybody can make their own
choices and should, butfor me, this is a time
to think back about thefolks with whom I serve,
to see all those faces as I can now see
and faded photographs, youknow, in my study of, you know,

(17:22):
once familiar faces, I, as Isay, crouched behind a line of,
of fighter pilot helmets in front
of a freshly painted jet on acarrier desk deck somewhere.
And, and remember what that was all about
and how much that taughtme and how much I learned.
And you know, how far we'veall journeyed since then, those
of us that are still around and, and,
and how that in many waysshaped me as an individual and,

(17:44):
and as a man and as a citizen.
And so I, it's not, it's, it's pensive,
but it's not sad is, I guess,the way I would put it.
And, and so I, Idifferentiate between the two
and others may, maymake their own choices.
- A storied athletemight recall his career
and think, okay, I hit ahome run in the World Series,

(18:05):
or I want a most I will play award.
You reflect on 39 years of service.
What, is there one memorythat stands out for you?
- Well, you know, there, there's so many
and you, you, you know,
it's all about the peoplewith whom you serve.
And that too is a themethat I touch on, on
in my Veteran's Day remarks often,
because that's what it's really all
about at the end of the day.
And, and so, you know, I've been a part

(18:26):
of conflicts large and small.
I've been a, you know, Icaught the tail end of Vietnam.
I did the Gulf Wars, Iraq, you know, one
and two Afghanistan.
I actually ran a war in KosovoNATO's first conflict in,
in 1999 and those kind of things.
And, and, and you know, thereare always vignettes, there,
always memorable experiences,interactions, and,

(18:47):
and they're not the ones thatpeople think about often.
You know, sometimesthey're, they're related,
they're tangential, ifyou know what I mean.
I mean, I can remember at theend of the war in, in Kosovo,
people forget, but we hadalmost a million refugees
that flowed out of, you know,
Kosovo into neighboring Albania.
And we had set up refugeecamps and, and the like,
and I was touring the refugee camps

(19:08):
as they were being shut downand talking to this woman who,
you know, was a member ofan NGO that for 25 years
of her life had been doing nothing
but this, you know, refugee camps
and tragic places around the world.
I thought there might havebeen a bit of a tension
between the militaryinvolved in supporting
her and, and the like.
And I began to apologize.
I said, you know, I hope we didn't
create too much friction for you.

(19:29):
And, and she looked at me in tone of voice
that I hadn't heard since thethird grade, said, Admiral,
don't you dare apologize for the military.
I said, she, we could not havedone any of this without you.
And then she pointed at thisyoung special forces major
about 50 yards away,who was out of earshot.
And, and she said, that man
is the finest man I have ever known,

(19:50):
and not the finest military man,
but the finest man I have ever known.
And so, you know, thosekinds of things remind you of
what the military represents.
And we tend to see it inthe, in the kinetic side,
the war fighting side, the courage
and the bravery kind of thing.
And that's hugely important.
Don't, don't misunderstand me,
but it's the other things that,
that you can contribute in the military

(20:12):
if you're fortunate enoughto have that opportunity to,
to the betterment of mankind.
And so I, you know, thoseare the kinds of things
that actually stick in my mind.
Believe me, I rememberevery night catapult shot
and night carrier landing andall those kinds of things.
But, but the ones that,that come back to you
and that you can sit ona, on a veteran's day
with some sense of you're not,you know, overbearing pride,

(20:33):
but you know, quiet satisfactionthat hey, you were part
of something that addedvalue and made a difference.
- And so on Tuesday,November 11th, tell me
what I should do, Admiral, inthis regard, I did not serve.
I am about 13 years behind you.
My generation, the fall off
of military service is remarkablewhen you start looking at,
at what happens to people
who graduate from collegein the 1980s moving forward.

(20:56):
So I don't have the same memories you do.
I don't have the same personal
connection other than my father.
Tell me how I should honorveterans on Veteran's Day.
- Well, I think, youknow, veterans are not,
are not seeking out, youknow, self-aggrandizement
or, or, or flattery.
They, they appreciate, youknow, the words and the,
and that, but I think,you know, the ceremonies

(21:18):
that we put together, the ones
that bring together peoplein time of, of celebration,
and they include folks
who perhaps didn't serve in the military,
but served in other ways.
And, and I talk about thatwhen I speak, you know,
you can serve in wayslarge and small and in
or out of uniform.
And it was Martin LutherKing who once said, you know,
service is the rent we payfor the space we occupy.

(21:40):
And I think in a, in a real sense, people
to a large degree serve intheir own, in their own way.
I recognize the difference and,
and some of the sacrifices thatcome with the, the military.
But, you know, AlbertSchweitzer then went on to say,
you know, I don't knowwhat life will bring you,
but that you'll only I can, I do know
that the only people that'lltruly be happy are those
that have found a way in which to serve.

(22:00):
And I think that's the, theway I would approach it.
The veterans were fortunate.
They got some, some opportunities.
Many of them paid a a pricesometimes, you know, gave it all
as the, as the old saying goes,
but, so I don't think youneed to seek out veterans.
But I think being a part ofa, of a, of a celebration
that acknowledges all of thosewho served being, you know,

(22:23):
understanding thedifference between the, the,
the challenges that theveterans face today versus
what they faced decadesago, you know, recognition
as we now have that thereare lingering issues that,
that the veterans, many ofthem still continue to face.
But not assuming that everybody
who served comes back bent or broken.

(22:44):
And that most go on as, as my father did.
As your father did to, tosuccessful careers and, and,
and great and productivelives, perhaps hiding
and carrying quietly scarsthat, that we never knew or saw.
And I think just anappreciation of that bill.
It doesn't have to be verbalized.
You don't have to go outtayour way to, to pat somebody in

(23:04):
the back or shake their hand.
But just the acknowledgementthat that's real,
that it helped makethis country what it is
and continues to, toinspire veterans to serve
going forward, I think is important.
- There are about 17.9million veterans in the
United States, give or take a few,
that's a population somewhere
between Pennsylvania and New York State.
It's a sizable population,

(23:25):
- Less than 6% by my count. Yeah.
- Right. But if you break it down
by demographics in theage group of 75 plus, 42%
of all males have military service.
- Right?- If you look at the age group, 65 to 74,
you're now getting into myterritory, Admiral, 24%.
If you go down to ages 35to 57.89%, it's interesting,

(23:47):
I was looking at Congress
and right now in the new Congress,
when the new Congress camein, about a hundred members
had military service.
And this is the highest number.And I think in about eight
years, that includes JD Vance.
It's now down, I thinkof the high nineties
'cause a couples stepped away.
But back in your day whenyou're in Annapolis, about 70%
of Congress had military service.
- Yeah. - This seems achallenge, not just, we can get

(24:09):
to the issue of, you know,Congress appreciated the military
doing the right thingson strategy and defense,
but it seems to be one problemhere is you have individuals
who do not have a common experience.
It's the old cliche that 20years ago you could take a group
of men to sit 'em down together
and they would've had militaryservice to talk about.
They would've had at least a starting
point, something in common.
But we don't have that in society anymore.

(24:30):
And that strikes me as a real problem.
- No, I, I would agree.
And we've begun to addressthat, you know, obliquely
and directly and, you know,
revitalizing American institutions.
One of the programs that,that Hoover has underway,
it's a very difficult issueto come to grips with.
And how do you change that?Should you change that?
Is that natural? I mean, now, you know,
from a number standpoint, about 1%

(24:51):
of the American populationserves, to your point.
And, and so as we get that bow wave, the,
the pig in the python of those
that served in the Gulf War days in the,
in the sandbox is my son,
who's still in the armywould would call it
either in Iraq or Afghanistan.
We're now seeing that reflectedin, in congressional service
and, and, and government service.

(25:12):
And, and I think on balance,that's a good thing.
But I do think that there's not a common
perspective on thatservice, as you pointed out.
And that can bring different perspectives.
You know, it's, you know, Iwas, as a young officer, a part
of the Navy legislativeprocess on Capitol Hill,
the Navy legislative affairs office,
and, you know, got to know,not personally, don't,

(25:35):
don't imply that folks whohad served, I mean the,
the John Towers and the others who was a,
a master chief petty officer, believe it
or not, in the Navy reserves as the,
as a senator from Texas, asenior senator from Texas
and those kinds of things.
And you know, that, you know,they were wounded veterans,
you know, and you know,that, that we knew well
and some of whom ran for, for president.

(25:57):
And they're like, that's gone.
And, and so I think
that makes it a little bitmore difficult for people
to appreciate the challenges.
I think it, it shapes our involvement
as the statistics clearly show, you know,
my family is not unique.
You know, my father served, I served,
my son continues to serve.
And, and so that, that narrowsthe field from which we draw

(26:19):
people and you know,people say, well, we need
to go back to the draft.
Got it. That's got its own set
of challenges in a high tech military
and a, with a short conscription cycle.
And so I I, we need to, weneed to think about that,
but I think there are otherways that we can do that.
I do believe, for example,in, in national service, I do,
I do think that's anoption that, that we could

(26:39):
and should pursue, whetherit's teaching for America
or, or whatever it is.
It doesn't have to be in uniform.
And I think that shapespeople, people's thinking
and their, the breadthof their friendships
and their acquaintances.
The, the understanding ofthe different societal levels
and demographics of this greatnation, this melting pot.
And I, and I think on,on balance, that's a,

(27:00):
that's a clear plus.
And how you mandate that thoughis a, is a different issue
and, and who gets exceptionsor waivers or whatever and,
and, and it, and it gets, itgets politicized at the end,
so, or can get politicized at the end.
So I, I do think your concernsare, are valid, bill, I mean,
I've been told by folks on the,on the Stanford campus that,

(27:20):
you know, folks like me are,are a part of the problem.
We've, we've, we've broughtthe, now we've got a, a,
a family that is, is part ofthe, the military leadership
and we've made it the familybusiness kind of thing.
I don't think any of us thatserved ever thought of it
as a business, quite frankly, if we did,
it's got a tremendouslydifferent bottom line.
- Two things we do here at Hoover Admiral.
One, we have NationalSecurity fellows who I love

(27:42):
to meet each year becausethese are people who are going
to be something special One day,
I remember when I first started at Hoover,
my next door neighbor was HR McMaster.
I think he was a major at the time.
So, but he clearly was going places.
And that's why these men
and women end up at the Hoover Institution
because the branches seethem as having promise.
I did a podcast much likethis several years ago.
It was actually during the filming

(28:03):
of Top Gun, two of all things.
And my guess was a nationalsecurity fellow who's gonna be
Jim Ellis one day.
I dunno if he'll get four stars,but he headed it somewhere.
Why is he gonna be Jim Ellis?
He was a commander, Ibelieve at the time, Admiral.
And he was here at Hoover
for his one year as a security fellow.
Then he was headed, and thisis gonna sound very familiar,
he was headed to South Carolina
and he was going tonuclear training school.

(28:24):
He was going to, you know,hang out just outside
of Charleston and go onboard those old submarines
and learn how to propulsion plant and why,
because he's gonna skippera carrier one day, right?
- Yeah, no, it's, that's,
that's the wonderful thingabout these, these nfs
and it's a very competitive program.
We get very select and nowa broader range of folks.

(28:44):
We, as you know, itextends into some of the,
the three letter agencies as well.
We now include Space Force members in it.
And so it's, it'sreflective of the, the new
DODI still call it that I'm an old guy,
maybe I can get away with that.
But it's, it's a tremendous opportunity.
And we've had, as you know,many of them have gone on to,

(29:07):
to senior things, you talked about hr,
but JP McGee, there,there are others that,
that are out there thatthat, that, you know, took
that service, that exposureand, and it, and it, I hope,
and I think informed them inways that that contributed
to their future success,though obviously they were
tremendously talented to be selected
for the program to begin with.
So it's a, it's a great program.

(29:29):
Like you, I get to interact
to varying degrees with them each year.
And it's a, it's a wonderful opportunity.
Amy Zieger does a great jobof, of running that program.
And, and now they turnaround and mentor on campus
and become that person, as youpointed out earlier, that to,
to classes of, of Stanford students
who may never have met anybodyserving in the military.

(29:51):
And, and it, and it, it canchange their perspective
and on who these peopleare, their intelligence,
their charisma, their, theirskills and, and the like,
and you think differentlyperhaps about your own national
service going forward.
- And then we also havethe veteran Fellows
program that you're a part of.
You're on the selection committee as MI,
and this must be a flashback,it must be like going back
to your Navy days anddoing fitness reports

(30:13):
because you, you have to, youhave to go through about what,
50 60 biographies and kind of deciding,
- I think it was 80 this time, but anyway,
but whatever it was, it was worth it.
And, and you're exactly right,
it is like reading fitness reports and,
but you know, the challengeto this one bill is as you,
as you have found, andI have found is that
there's more to it than that.
And, and some of the folksthat, that we selected

(30:35):
and I'm proud of thathave been a little out
of the ordinary, out of themainstream, if you will, with,
with topics that cause youto quizzically think a bit.
And it, and it acknowledgesthat, you know,
the cookie cutter approach, the, the, the,
the way it always worksdoesn't always yield the
outcome that you're looking for.
And so we look for things that,
that are unusual, that are impactful.

(30:56):
They have the ability to, tohave a short term effect that,
that approach challengesfrom a perhaps a different
perspective and the like.
And as you say, all
of these folks have leftthe service at some point,
both officer and enlisted and,
and an hour at their, their mid-career.
What, however, broadly one defines that.

(31:16):
And they're looking for ways to,
to contribute and to make a difference.
And I think there's beena tremendous value to,
to Hoover in the, what now, five
or six years we've been doing this.
It's, it's really, it'snow almost self-generating.
I mean the, many of thefolks that that come to us
as you know, have been in conversations
with previous fellows whospeak highly of the program
and the opportunities that are there.

(31:38):
As with all things human,you get a, a level of,
of productivity or effect out of this.
But we've seen tremendoussuccess on balance and,
and I think it's beena, a uniquely a focused
and successful product for, for Hoover.
And I think it continuesto serve us well and,
and I look forward to being apart of it for years to come.
- Yeah, I tell peoplethis is very much Director

(31:59):
Rice's vision in this regard.
She is very interested in localcommunities across America.
The Hoover institutiontraditionally thinks great thoughts,
national thoughts, international thoughts,
but she wants us to drilldown more into states
and communities, if you will.
And the beauty of this programis you meet fellows from
around the country who want
to change their communities locally.

(32:19):
And so this is a fantastic concept.
- Yeah, no, exactly right.
And and they scale it appropriately.
You know, sometimes, as you know,
in reviewing the proposals, we, we look
and say, well, you know,that's a bit broad.
Can you focus it a bit morenarrowly or more regionally
or more state oriented?
And we're now seeing more ofthat as, you know, I mean,
some folks come in with things
that are focused on their town
and their, their local governance

(32:40):
and, and making a difference.
Some have it at the statelevel, others at, you know,
at the department levels withinthe, within the government.
So I think there is a, a levelof awareness that, you know,
one person can make adifference in all of that.
And in many cases we'refinding these are those people.
And, and I think it's, it's inspiring
to watch them watch them work

(33:01):
and sacrifice part of theirown time to, to make a,
a difference with the, theincredible support they get from
the Hoover Fellows and,
and the Hoover VeteransAffairs Fellows program,
- Admiral, there's a groupcalled combat wounded.org
and they have someinteresting statistics on
veterans in America.
They found that 58% ofveterans are married.

(33:22):
This strikes me as a very good thing
because you have somebody inyour house, you have a partner,
you have support if you need support,
but it's found that four in10 veterans feel like a quote
guest in their own home.
They have not quite, you know,
filtered back into society, if you will.
If you saw the movie American Sniper,
it gets into this where
- Right,- He comes home
and he just cannot puta rack out of his mind

(33:44):
and he has a hard time adjusting
and there's a very uncomfortablescene in a backyard
barbecue with his, one of his children
and a dog not to giveaway the movie if will,
but there's that transition problem.
It's found that 90, thisgroup found that 94%
of veterans are proud oftheir service and that's good.
But 84% admiral believethe public has quote little
awareness of the challenges veterans face.
So this is the question,

(34:05):
how do you better educate the public on
challenges veterans face?
And there's kind of a nuance here,
because you referenced thisearlier, you don't want
to turn this into a tale of woe.
It suggests that every veteran
who comes outta the system is broken.
- Right, right. No, that'sexactly the challenge, bill.
And, and there are, you know,
everyone's an individual atthe, at the end of the day,
you point out that themilitary can mold you

(34:26):
and does to to, to a collective effort
and a collective standard,
hopefully a high standard,an appropriate standard.
I I think that's true.
But there's also the acknowledgement
that people respond differentlyand, and people hide things
because they're, theywant to continue to serve,
for example, and, and perhaps,
and so there's a lot of effort
and has been in recentyears to kind of, you know,

(34:48):
take the stigma away from, from asking
for assistance and, and help.
It's met with mixed success,
but I think it's, it's,
things are a little bitbetter than they were
in making those kinds ofconversations available to,
to veterans when they feel those stresses.
And it's kind of the,the oxymoron, you know,
we talk a lot about, you know,the Band of Brothers Effect,

(35:11):
which is what I call itafter the great book.
And, you know, actuallystolen from the corp speech
that Shakespeare tributes toHenry V as we, as we know.
And, and there is that,that bonding and that, and,
and so you, when you leavethat, when you, you come home
or you leave the servicesomething you, that's a, that's a,

(35:32):
a gap, that's a, a void that, you know,
something has to fill.
And in some ways, maybethat's what, you know, our,
our Veterans Fellows programis, is doing where they,
they go out and find a, a cause
or an issue that, thatfills, fills some of that.
But I do think we needto be careful that we,
we bound this appropriately.
The statistics you talk about, you know,
make sure those surveys are,are accurately, are accurate,

(35:54):
they're well done, you know,get the VA's involved that
there are ways in which we can,
we can, we can improve on that.
But you know, it's, it getsback to the history and,
and you and I talked about that.
We began the conversation,we're talking about our fathers
and, and the like,
and you know, you wonder howmuch of that's always been
with us as part of, of, ofconflict and, and the like and,

(36:15):
and has just not been represented now.
And that no way diminishesthe significance
or the seriousness of it.
But you, you wonder thebaggage that that many
of them carried for all those years
that never one acknowledgedfor which they never got,
got rebo, now we have better options.
We need to continue to work to,
to not stigmatize the people going out

(36:36):
and asking to, to exercise those options.
And I think that's,that's part of the message
that I know all of theservices are trying to convey,
particularly as they come back from,
from very difficultscenarios, you know, such
as the exit from Afghanistan and,
and some of the, the darkerdays of, of the Iraq conflict
and, and, and Afghanistan as well.
I mean, you know, my sonis still in the army,

(36:58):
but as a young officer, hewent to Afghanistan 19 times
and you know,
that's fairly significant timeaway from home deployments
and the like, that, thatobviously have an impact on you.
And each individualhas a different ability
to compartmentalize, as Icall it, which is what you try
and do in, in, in demandingsituations where you can put

(37:20):
that away and put it in abox and, and you go home
and you, you come back to beinga dad and a, and a husband
and a, or a or a wifedepending on your gender.
And, and so,
but people have varyinglevels of ability to do that.
And we've just gotta acknowledgethat as, as being part
of human, of, of humanity, not as a,
as a failing or a shortfall.

(37:41):
- You have flown and you have,you have committed a carrier,
you have overseen aviators.
Is this a problem with aviators admiral?
Is this more of a challengefor people in land combat?
- Well, I, it's interesting, you know,
there've been some statisticsin, in, in recent years
that show us even aproblem for drone operators
who aren't even in the battlespace really that well,
that you know it, well, there's a logic

(38:02):
to when you think about it,and this is probably much more
detailed than you needon your podcast, but,
but they found that particularlyif you're tracking high
value targets or suspects
or you know, potentialterrorists that, you know,
you'll follow 'em for days with the drone
and the drone operators kindof get to see, you know,
them in their, in their homes
with their families playing in the
er, those kinds of things.
And, and then all of asudden, you know, you, you get

(38:24):
to the kinetic outcomeand so you can understand
how even remotely it could affect you
and how you think about,you know, the actions
that you just, you justconsummated even though they were
legal and certainly appropriate
and the law of armed conflictand the, and the like.
And so yeah, it's, it's, so I'm not,
I'm not saying it's just astough to, you know, be in a,

(38:45):
in a fighter and, you know, as my, some
of my army friends always remindme, at least you come back
to, you know, a hot meal and some,
and some clean sheets on the, on the,
on the aircraft carrier,you know, as opposed to
where they might find themselves in, in,
in the field with the army.
But you know, I, I do thinkthat it's probably a, a,
a more up close

(39:05):
and personal effect for thosethat are on the ground and,
and the like, and youknow, I'm not a Luddite,
but I think that's gonna bea part of conflict always.
And it's what, you know, Nick Carter
and I talk about the,you know, the character
of warfare changes, it'schanging all the time.
The character of war does not,
and that's the, the broaderissue where it comes down to,

(39:28):
you know, that conflict withbetween amongst human beings
and, and that if you're,if you're the right kind
of human being that is goingto affect you to some degree.
And we just have to ensure
that people have the right tools they need
and the understanding, theappreciation, the leadership
and the, and the understandingof the, the legality
and propriety and proportionalityof the cause that they're,

(39:48):
that they're supportingas they go into that.
And, and then, you know, dealwith whatever effects may come
after in an appropriate manner.
- Alright, this podcast iscoming out on Tuesday the
11th, veteran's Day itself.
So how are you spending your day?
- Well, I've got twoopportunities to speak.
One at an ROTC unit, believe it
or not, in, in Santa Clara University.

(40:10):
They've asked me to talk and,and I'm gonna go down there
and talk to the young,the young cadets and
- Where, where do, where dothey drill outta curiosity
because Stanford, they drill
- There actually, and theyhave, they have some folks from,
from Stanford as I understand it.
They're a part of that unit.So this is the army side. Yeah,
- Because Stanford had aproblem for years with its Navy
or they, they had to goover to Berkeley to drill, I
- Believe, right?

(40:30):
The Navy goes to Berkeley, this is Army.
And so this one's down at Santa Clara.
And so I'm gonna do that in the morning.
And then in the, the eveningwe've got our annual veterans
event here at Hoover.
And once again, they mustbe getting tired of me.
They've asked me to speak at that.
I understand Condi is gonna speak as well.
So it should be a, a greatand well attended event.
It's the the one where weclassically welcome the, well,

(40:52):
we acknowledge the presenceof the, the, the Veterans
Fellowship program as as well.
So again, it's always a welcome event.
As you know, there area lot of folks at Hoover
that were veterans are veterans and,
and so we get a tremendous turnout and,
and also representation from folks
as you've already pointed out,
that didn't serve themselves in uniform,

(41:14):
but that wanna be partof an acknowledgement
or recognition of those who did.
- And also point out we have not one
but two, four store admiralsin our ranks here, you
and you, you and that tin can guy Gary Ed.
- Yeah, no, no. Gary's agreat, great colleague and
and friend of, of longstanding in many,
many years, as you know.
And we also, as you know, have,
Dave Goldfine is a visitingfellow, former chief staff

(41:35):
of the Air Force and ofcourse our very well known
colleague, Jim Mattis, who's, who served,
and now we broadened that
to include general SirNick Carter, who was chief
of defense staff for the United Kingdom.
And so we've, we've branchedout internationally as well.
And so I think, you know,you, you gotta be careful,
you don't want to over liven that,

(41:56):
but you also have toappreciate the perspective
as you've highlightedthat, that those years
of service can bring.
They, we've, we've seen a lot.
I mean, you know, that's the,
that's the price of getting old.
You know, you, you get to, tosee as I, as I joke, you know,
I've been a part of, it's not a joke,
but I've been a part of SixWars, if you count the cold one.
And, and so that, that colors

(42:19):
and shapes how you lookat things from a different
perspective, particularly whenyou look at things now that,
you know, artificial intelligence,
as we've already talkedenergy that are beginning
to affect national security invery real and powerful ways.
It's can be helpful to have folks
who have a, have a background in that.
You also need all the economists you need.
Certainly the, the historians,I, I love Stephen Kins quote,

(42:43):
those that don't studyhistory think everything
is unprecedented.
And, and so we, we learn fromeach other here at Hoover
and it's a, a greatpleasure to be a part of it.
- We have very quietlybuilt a bench of historians
between Steve Kotkin
and Neil Ferguson, HR McMaster,technically it's historian.
He has a PhD in history.
It is better than most universities

(43:03):
history departments, my estimation.
- Yeah. And Phil Zel wasa part of that as well.
And, and, and I,
and I think they really dobring an important perspective
and we see that, interestinglyenough when folks from
outside, folks
that are currently servingat very senior positions come
to talk, you know,
they can get something from folks like me.

(43:24):
And I know they get a lotfrom talking to Jim Mattis,
but they get a tremendousamount from the historians,
- Right?
- And those that bring aperspective on things that,
that allow them to lookat a problem differently
and encourage them to do so.
And, and they come
to some very differentconclusions as a result of that.
And very much value thatinteraction with the,
the hu the Hoover historiansand, and policy folks.

(43:47):
- Alright, two final itemsthat I'll let you go Abel,
'cause I'm chewing up alot of your time today.
One is George Schultz.
Let's circle back to GeorgeSchultz for a second.
You knew him better than I did
through your endeavors here at Hoover.
If when Secretary Schultz was alive,
we would have a function here at Hoover
that we'd call a round table,for lack of a better word.
We'd invite some notable to come in
and it would be an offthe record conversation.

(44:09):
So there would be candor.
And the way the meetingwould begin was we'd sit
around a table and on the Annenberg room
here in Annenberg Fellowand we'd all go around,
introduce ourselves and ofcourse the Great Man Secretary
Schultz would go last, you know
how he'd introduce himself, aro Ellis.
He would always say George Schultz,
United States Marine Corps.
- Yeah.- And that stuck with me

(44:29):
because I thought, myGod, here is somebody
who has been a Secretary ofState, a Secretary of Treasury,
a Secretary of Labor, head of the OMB,
an incredibly storied career.
But he points out the service
as his definition, the Marine Corps.
You knew George Schultz.
What was it about the Marine Corps
that just did that to him?

(44:50):
'cause I, I know a lot of gentlemen
who served in the Marine Corps,Jim Mattis you mentioned,
and others were very much the same way.
Just the core gets nearblood and it never gets out.
- Yeah, that's one of thegreat things about the,
the Marine's ethos andtheir birthdays coming up.
And so they're 250th by theway. And so it's be a blowout.
They are unique, well, many ways,
I would say uniquely capableof, of defining that ethos

(45:12):
and instilling thatethos in, in, in Marines.
I mean, once a Marine, alwaysa Marine is not, you know,
a bumper sticker on the back
of a pickup truck in South Texas.
I mean it's, you know,
and you never want to calla Marine, an ex-Marine.
They're a former Marine,
but they are, they are still a Marine.
And, and so they do amarvelous job at that.
And you know, you hear storiesall the time about, you know,

(45:36):
recruiters who, whofrom the other services,
who don't quite get it, who show up
with PowerPoint slides and all of that.
And, and then the Marine comes in
and Apocryphally stands on thestage, looks at the audience,
says, you know, I don'tthink there's anybody in here
that really is good enough to be a Marine,
but if some of you thinkyou might be able up
to the challenge, I'll be in the back
of the auditorium when we're done.
And that's all he says.And he is mobbed at the end

(45:58):
of the day by people who want to be a part
of an organization thatsets high standards,
that are unequivocal aboutit and unapologetic about it.
And, and that if youwant to join us, you can.
And, and that's the thing, thepeople, people resonate with
that kind of a challenge
and the the right people,the people they want,
and they're a, they'rea young force by design.

(46:20):
People don't stay long.
They, they rotate people through,
but it creates thiswhole ecosystem and it,
and it served them very wellon Capitol Hill as we all know,
because there are, there are lots
of former Marines up there all the way up
to senators whom we know,some of whom we know well, who
just left the Marines
after serving in reserve capacity as,
as, as colonels and the like.

(46:41):
And so it, it creates that,that culture, if you will, of a,
of a service that, that Ithink we can all, you know,
appreciate and to some degreework towards emulating.
They're smaller, much smaller than the,
than the other services with the exception
of the Space Force, whichis much smaller still, but,
but they're very uniquelycapable of, of crafting that

(47:01):
and living up to it toa, to a large degree.
- I would recommend toour listeners who want
to better understand, appreciatethe Marine Corps on the day
of the Corps's birthday,they should watch the
movie Taking Chance.
Have you seen that movie Admiral? Yes, I
- Have many times. Yeah.
- Right.- Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's marvelous.
And, and I think that's what,that's what it's all about.

(47:21):
And that's why, you know, when we get back
to go full circle Bill,it's, it, it's easy
to conflate Veterans Day and Memorial Day
because many of the folks that you know,
particularly when you get tobe my vintage, that you look
around at, that you servedwith, even though, you know,
they, some of them were lost in in combat.
Many of them were lostin operational access.
Oth others have now just movedon due to, due to old age.

(47:44):
And, and so there's that,there's that sadness in it.
But, but that movieparticularly brings home to me
what I've always said.
I said, the real measureof organizations is not
how they say hello to people,it's how they say goodbye.
And, and this is an exampleof, of that marine culture,
that admirable cultureof which I spoke where

(48:06):
you are a Marine fromthe day of your, you're,
you're pinning on the ethe Eagle Globe and Anchor.
You're not, you're not aMarine yet on accession day,
they're very clear about that at bootcamp.
But once you, you wear that,you are always a marine.
And, and, and that,that movie very movingly
and very compellingly, Ithink shows the, the essence

(48:28):
of, of that approach.
And it's, it's remarkableand it's wonderful.
- For those who haven't seenit, they plot Kevin Bacon the,
after Kevin Bacon plays amarine lieutenant colonel
who is a military escort,bringing home a fallen soldier.
- Right, right. Yeah.- But well done.
Alright, final question, Admiral,
I'm concerned abouthappiness inside the House
of Ellis in this regard.
You have a son in the Army.

(48:48):
I'm curious as to how thatcame about since you are navy
descendant yourself,
but what happens inthe house of Ellis come
that Saturday in Decemberwhen Army Navy take out their
hostilities on the grid iron?
- Well, I get that question often,
bill, as you might imagine.
And, and I'm, I'm fond of saying,you know, for those of you
that aren't aware, myson went to West Point
and in those days it was

(49:09):
before laser surgery for eyes.
And he inherited his mother'svision, unfortunately,
and, and couldn't fly.
And so even though he had offersfrom both the Naval Academy
or from Navy and from West Point,
he elected to go to West Point.
He'd always been a, hewas an Eagle Scout, used
to take 50 mile hikes for fun.
When I lived in Idaho. He dugsnow caves in the mountains

(49:31):
with his compatriots andBoy scouts and camped out
and those kinds of things.
And so, and he also had the benefit of,
of doing something different.
You know, he, he could, hecould claim anonymity as he did
for many years, you know,no, I'm not related to him.
No, he, I don't think heactually did the three times in
the, in the garden denying me.
But, but he could go his own way.

(49:52):
And, and he's, he's obviouslydone well. He's still serving.
He's a major general now.
And, but you're right, we agree
to disagree one football Saturday a year.
But as I tell people, but that's as far
as his youthful rebellion took him,
his late mother and I did.
Okay,
- Very good.
Is there a wager involved?
- No, we don't, we don't do that.
Anyway, one point we didwith, you know, the tradition,

(50:14):
believe it or not, forsome strange purpose
between Naval Academy
and West Point, is you,you, you bet a bathrobe,
they each have institutional bathrobes,
and the armies are much betterthan the Navy's, by the way.
But you would always bet that, or you,
or at the end of the game,you'd find a, a, a compatriot
of the other stripe across the field,
and you would, you would swapcuff links, one cuff link.

(50:35):
'cause each had Naval Academyin West Point cuff links.
There's a, there's a little bit of a
tradition and an exchange.
But, but now we, we have had the occasion
to watch the game togetherin person on, on occasion.
Not, not often, and not lately, but,
and a lot of times, asI mentioned earlier, he,
he was deployed for the game,
but we'll, we'll comparenotes when it's all over.

(50:56):
And, you know, Army'sstruggling a bit this season,
and Navy's actually doing very well.
We're seven and one, believe it
or not, undefeated until last weekend.
Now Notre Dame is this weekend for Navy.
That's gonna be a challenge. But, but
nonetheless, when thatgame comes up, you know,
all bets are off to, to your point Bill,
and you never know howthat's gonna turn out.
But at the end of the day,the important thing is

(51:18):
what happens at the end of the game,
as you'll see in no otherfootball game in the nation,
each team goes with the other
to their respective sides of the field.
And the, and they sing the alma mater
of the opposing team togetherfacing the stands and the,
and the, the winner goes last.

(51:40):
And so the motto every yearat Navy is sing second.
And that's what they do.
- I think the coldestnight in my life, Admiral,
was when my father took me tothe Army Navy game in 1977.
And this is back in theold JFK State Philadelphia.
And you're nodding your headbecause you probably spent
several afternoons and evenings there
yourself. My God, it was cold

(52:00):
- Ankle deep in snow.
I remember it. And know, I, my late wife
and I, you know, we were,I was with the brigade
and she was in the standssmall girl from small town
Georgia, you know, she wasfrom Marietta, Georgia.
And, and she had never been that far north
and certainly never stood in the snow.
And I guess the fact that she stayed and,
and we were actually, wed some,a few years later indicates

(52:21):
that maybe, maybe she saw something in me
that I didn't see in myself.
But nonetheless, you'reright. It was absolutely
freezing in that stadium.
- Well, a, we see a lotof you here at the Hoover
Institution in terms of yourvalue to the institution.
We are honored to have you here.
You have been a great addition
and we just greatly appreciate all
you do for the institution.
- Well, bill, you're very kind.
As I said, it's anhonor and a pleasure to,

(52:42):
and a privilege to be a partof this great organization.
The I learn every dayfrom folks like you and,
and some of the, the fellows
that we've already been discussing.
And, and it gives you pause
as George Schultz once reminded us,
when you can sit down therefor occasionally, for a couple
of hours during the course of the week
and think about things in a,in a different way, informed
by the conversations thatyou've had around this,

(53:04):
this storied campus.
And so, again, delighted to be here
and really appreciate theopportunity to share some thoughts
with you as we approachthis Veteran's Day.
- Thank you. This is fun ail,
and hey, safe travels nexttime you're in the air.
Our listeners should know theadmiral just flew in yesterday
and it was not a very pleasant experience
because he, like a lot ofAmericans had been caught up in
the mess that his airline travel

(53:24):
courtesy of the government shut down.
- It's all right. We're allhere and we're all safe.
That's all that matters. Take care, bill.
- Okay, you too, sir.- Thanks.
- You've been listeningto Matters of Policy
and Politics at HooverInstitution Podcast.
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(53:45):
spelled H-O-V-E-R-I-N-S-T.
Val Ellis, are you on XI
- Am not on X, but I am on Instagram.
- Okay.- Now my kids are on Instagram,
so you've gotta be in this day and age,
and so I, I kind of got off Facebook at,
I was being inundated too much,
but, but I still am on Instagram.
- Okay. I missed our websitebeginning of the show.

(54:06):
That is hoover.org.
While you're there, why don't you sign up
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which delivers the latest from Admiral
James Ellis and his Hoover colleagues.
Dear Inbox, weekdays
for the Hoover Institution,this is Bill Whalen.
We'll be back soon with thenew install on a matters
of policy and politics.
Until next time, take care.
And to all listen who've worn
or still wear their country's uniform.
Thank you for your service.
- This podcast is a productionof the Hoover Institution,

(54:28):
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