Do high-school students – including those fortunate to attend America’s most prestigious universities – enter college with a solid understanding of American civics (i.e., the republic’s origin and design) or is it more a case of remedial learning? In this installment of Renewing Civics Education – Preparing for American Citizenship, Paul Peterson, a Hoover Institution senior fellow and Harvard University professor, reflects on his experiences teaching an introductory government course and offers thoughts on education reform – school choice, standardized testing – with Volker Senior Fellow (adjunct) “Checker” Finn, one of the nation’s preeminent authorities on education policy and innovation.
Recorded on January 9, 2025.
ABOUT THE SERIES
Educators across the land are preparing for Civic Learning Week in mid-March—with the capstone National Forum at the Hoover Institution on March 13—as the nation also gets ready for next year’s 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. In anticipation of both—and recognizing the urgent need to rekindle civic literacy via our schools and colleges—Renewing Civics Education – Preparing for American Citizenship, a five-part podcast series, takes on the challenges of citizenship education: why it matters, what it needs to do differently, what shortcomings it must overcome. The series features distinguished members of Hoover’s Working Group on Good American Citizenship, led by Volker Senior Fellow Chester Finn.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[MUSIC]
>> Chester Finn (00:09):
Isn't it crazy to keep expecting American schools to teach kids
anything about civics?
We've been trying for decades, maybe,maybe centuries, to get schools to teach
kids American civics, and they seemto come out not knowing anything.
Shouldn't we just.
Shouldn't we just quit trying?
>> Paul Peterson (00:25):
Well, we've had a constitution for over 200 years, and
it's still in place, and our peoplestill support their government, and
they must have learned this somewhere.
And the schools couldn'thave been too bad for
the system to work aswell as it does today.
So I think that's a prettyextreme statement, actually.
Mr. Finn.
>> Chester Finn (00:46):
Well, I'm given to extreme statements, and
I'm happy to see you here today.
I'm Chester Finn, known as Checker, andI am here today with Paul Peterson,
Professor Government at Harvard, seniorfellow at the Hoover Institution, and head
of Harvard's Program in Education Policyand Governance, and an old friend of mine.
(01:06):
And we are here to talk about civics inAmerican education, mostly elementary,
secondary.
It's great to be with you.
So what are your thoughts about theessential elements that the schools should
be imparting to our kidsduring their K12 years?
>> Paul Peterson (01:21):
Well, I look at this from the point of view of a person who
teaches students arriving on collegecampus, finishing high school.
They're now ready to move onto more specialized studies.
And I'm teaching Introductionto American Government,
the very first course they takein politics on the campus.
(01:42):
And I find them falling farshort of where they need to be.
>> Chester Finn (01:47):
This is at Harvard?
>> Paul Peterson (01:48):
And this is at Harvard, and it's a pretty good place.
And there's a prettytalented group of students.
And I'm not talking about every student.
There's some who really do know a lotabout the American institutions and
American political history.
But there's, sadly, a very large numberof students who know very little.
(02:09):
They know a lot aboutthe Revolutionary period, or
at least about some aspectsof the revolutionary period.
And they may know a little bit aboutthe Civil War or the Gettysburg Address,
but there's a lot of material thatthey're completely unaware of.
So I would say we really need toteach our political history to young
(02:31):
people in a more thorough waythan we have in the past and
to show how our institutions today emergeout of the experiences of the past.
So that we are a dynamic societythat's been constantly changing, but
we're fundamentally structured by.
By the Constitution,which was written back in 1789.
>> Chester Finn (02:53):
So do you find your students just sort of ignorant or.
The ones you're talking about,or are they also kind of biased?
Do they come in thinking that America'sa terrible place because that's what their
courses have been teaching them, orare they triumphalists who think
that everything's hunky dory andit always has been?
>> Paul Peterson (03:10):
Well, of course, there's some of both.
There's some who think the American systemis the best thing that's ever happened,
and there's some people who thinkit's terrible and has to be changed.
But I would say the bulk, the largebulk of them are just uninformed,
do not know very much,and are eager to learn.
I actually love teaching this coursebecause there is such eagerness
(03:34):
among young people to knowmore about their institutions.
I don't think this is a hard task.
This is a task that young peopleare eager to participate in.
So I don't think it's likegiving them some medications,
a teaspoonful of codliver oil in the morning.
>> Chester Finn (03:54):
So imagine if the K12 system was doing a really good job
of this, both the civic side andthe history side.
Would your current course still benecessary or would it change in a big way?
>> Paul Peterson (04:08):
Yeah, no, I'd like to make my course unnecessary.
I don't expect to be fired soon,but it would be nice to, To.
To have this as too redundant.
We've already done, andfor some students it is.
And I, when they come by to see me,they've.
If I tell me they've hadan excellent education in this area,
(04:31):
then I say,you should go to more specialized courses.
Go learn something about Congress orabout the presidency or
the court system and in greater detail.
Yes, there are some that are like that,but too many really need.
And even the people who helped me teachthe course, and these are now graduate
(04:52):
students, will not have an understandingof the system as a whole, though they
may know a lot of quantitative informationabout some specific aspect of it.
>> Chester Finn (05:02):
So nobody thinks about Harvard as a remedial institution for
its entering undergraduates?
On the contrary.
And yet you're describing something thatin many respects is a compensatory or
remedial course forthings they should have already learned.
Or am I mishearing you?
>> Paul Peterson (05:21):
Well, I think there's some truth to that.
It's true that we travel over thismaterial much more quickly than you would
at the high school level.
It's true that we go into detailsmuch more extensively than
you might do in the high school context.
But yes, there's, for example,
people have a very littleunderstanding of the federal system?
(05:45):
What is the division of responsibilitiesbetween the national government and
the state governments?
How much money is beingspent by state governments?
Is it really half of all of our domesticexpenditure is being raised locally and
spent locally by our local governments andour state governments?
When I tell my students that, I think thatthis is striking information that they
(06:06):
have never thought of and wouldn't havebelieved if somebody had told them that
out of the classroom,that's really interesting.
>> Chester Finn (06:15):
You're, in effect, it sounds like merging government, civics,
and history in your approachto teaching this in your mind.
Are these commingledsubjects in high school?
They're typically taught separately.
>> Paul Peterson (06:29):
One of the things I love to do is to talk about the different
periods in American history.
The founding period,the Jeffersonian period,
when the plantation owners from Virginiatake over the national government.
And then when the Jacksonians come fromthe west and they trample on the furniture
in the White House and they change,the spoil system comes into play.
(06:53):
And then all of a sudden,we have the Civil War and
Abraham Lincoln comes along and, and.
And the slaves are freed anda new era is begun.
And we have a Republican Party andthe Democratic Party for the first time.
And then you go down toWilliam Jennings Bryan, and
William Jennings Bryan is a fascinatingforce who never becomes president.
But nonetheless ensures thatthe Republican Party will be the dominant
(07:16):
party until Franklin Delano Rooseveltcomes along and
Franklin Delano Roosevelt changes America.
And then we have Barry Goldwater.
So, you know to get an overview ofAmerican history by seeing how all
of these political eras fit together andtell a story.
And the story is a complicated one.
It's not a simple one.
It's not like, okay, this isthe greatest country marching forward,
(07:40):
upward andupward without any slips and tumbles.
No, it's not that.
But nonetheless,it's a story of hope and progress.
>> Chester Finn (07:48):
So you are intertwining the civics and
the history in the wayyou approach the subject.
If I'm hearing you correctly.
>> Paul Peterson (07:55):
The basic question I ask is, is this a.
An exceptional country now Donald Trumpsays we're exceptional other
people say we're not exceptional.
I say the question is the United Statesexceptional or is it simply different?
We know that it's different.
We have different institutions from ourEuropean friends, from our Asian friends,
(08:19):
that it's a unique set ofpolitical institutions
that were created by our Constitution.
We have a federal system,we have separation of powers.
Well, does that make us exceptional ordoes it just make us different?
And you can argue that questionboth ways and in the end,
I leave it up to the students to decide.
>> Chester Finn (08:36):
This is fascinating and as you know,
we're having this conversationpartly because in a few weeks
Civic Learning Week is going to descendupon the United States in March.
And including a marvelous one-daycivic summit at the Hoover Institution
co-sponsored with civics to sortof capstone of this week and
(09:00):
in anticipation we are paying a lotof attention to how civics is.
Or is not being taught andlearned at both the K12 level and
the higher education level?
And you're an interesting sort oflinchpin between those two levels,
albeit at an elite institution.
So the approach to howthese things can and
(09:23):
should be taught as you're articulating,it's really very interesting for
me and I suspect fora lot of educators in this field.
But speaking of educators in this field,are we preparing them adequately?
That's one of the jobs of universities,
is to train the teachers that teachthe kids in the schools social studies.
(09:45):
My impression is they might notknow very much about it themselves.
>> Paul Peterson (09:48):
Well, I've never taught inside a school of education, so
I don't really know how it works there.
But I tend to feel that teachersare being encouraged to focus on
the rights of students.
So what is teachers tend to say,
what are your rights?
(10:10):
When can you use them?
How to use them?
How can you participate moreeffectively in your local community,
in your national community?
So there's a lot of focus on engagement ofthe student in political activities and
there's absolutelynothing wrong with that.
I have just finished readinga book about Mitch McConnell and
(10:32):
he was a student bodypresident in high school.
>> Chester Finn (10:37):
Why am I not surprised, okay?
>> Paul Peterson (10:40):
And he plotted that.
He, got all the, the basketball team andthe cheerleaders to all support him.
And even though he had a limpbecause he had had polio, he didn't,
wasn't able to do.
Although he was a prettygood baseball player,
he nonetheless found a way to get thesupport he needed to win that election.
(11:02):
And one of the things he said.
And if you don't mind,
I'd like to just quote it because it'ssuch a neat little statement that he made.
He said the student government's purpose.
Now he's elected is not student body.
The student government's purpose is tofoster such a loyalty, cooperative spirit.
(11:26):
That students will assume allresponsibilities outside the classroom,
thereby practicing citizenshipin preparation for
participation in city,state, and national affairs.
So what he does is responsible.
We need to learn how to be responsible sothat we can be entrusted with
(11:47):
running everything at this schoolhaving to do with student affairs.
So on the one hand, he's calling fordemocracy, for student control, and
on the other hand, he's calling forstudent responsibility.
And I think that's really how weshould think about that participatory
(12:08):
dimension of instruction forpreparation and for citizenship.
>> Chester Finn (12:13):
This is important partly because what some people call action
civics is controversial in many circles.
As if going and picketing the citycouncil was taking, substituting for
learning about the wheel,how the wheels of government work and
how bills become laws andso forth and so on.
(12:33):
You're describing andyou're an enthusiast for
a participatory element,at least to the civics education.
>> Paul Peterson (12:42):
For those who want it.
It's not the case that every studentin a high school is gonna want to
be a member of the student government.
And that's to fully understandable.
Some students are gonna be much betteroff playing on the basketball team or
participating in the theater program orlearning how to play the cornet or
(13:03):
the or the violin.
And so you wouldn't wanteverybody to be engaged in
the way Mitch McConnell wasengaged in high school.
>> Chester Finn (13:14):
Probably not, though I could see distilling a bit of a civics
lesson out of being on the basketballteam or in the orchestra.
I mean, there's a degree of collaboration,cooperation give and take, compromise.
Many of the elements of student governmentarise in an orchestra or a team.
>> Paul Peterson (13:35):
That's actually a really important insight checker that
you've just articulated, that so
much of what high school is aboutis learning how to be cooperative.
And to work with your colleagues andto work with your fellow students.
And sometimes that's better taught inour extracurricular activities than in
(13:55):
the core subjects that werebeing taught in high school.
And maybe we need to think moreabout how we could have education,
peer group education could benefita lot by thinking about how do
kids learn how to play the violin?
I have a granddaughter right now who'slearning how to play the violin.
She learns from her fellowstudents more than anybody else.
>> Chester Finn (14:15):
That's really interesting.
It also speaks to whether the teacherof a so called civics course can help
draw lessons out of other experiencesthat the students are having,
such as their extracurricular activities.
In other words, it doesn't have to just bea dry textbook course that says there's
two senators per state.
(14:35):
And here's how the federal system works.
You can also relate it to things kids areprobably engaged in one at one place or
another.
>> Paul Peterson (14:43):
Right and it's of course more interesting when you learn that we
have two senators from every state.
When you know what a fight they did haveat the Constitutional Convention over that
very issue.
That need not be a dullfact that you just learned.
If you understand it inits historical context.
It tells you a lot of things aboutourselves and how we sought for
(15:04):
compromise when we created this country.
>> Chester Finn (15:07):
During that hot summer in Philadelphia,
when they were arguing over big thingslike whether big states should have more
power than little states statesin the federal government.
>> Paul Peterson (15:16):
Yes little did they well, there was a sense that they knew
that state control was importantto address the slavery question.
Because from the very beginning,slavery was a curse that the country
had to deal with, andyou couldn't deal with it in 1789.
That was not a time in our history.
(15:39):
We would have fallen apart as a country.
We would never form.
We would have had two nations.
We would have then been subjectto foreign manipulation.
So, the timing to solve the slaveryquestion emerges gradually over time.
And it's a struggle.
And this can be taught ina very negative way as the.
(15:59):
The New York Times would want it to be.
But it can also be taughtin a very positive way to
show how this country managedto deal with this problem.
Not without tremendous.
I mean,a million soldiers died in the Civil War,
it's->> Chester Finn: The most of any war.
(16:20):
Most of any war.
So it was a terrible thing.
And then it was followed by a periodof segregated institutions for century.
So we have to understandthe pain of our history
as well as the greatinstitutions that we have today.
>> Chester Finn (16:43):
I want to shift gears with you a little bit because you
are a well known, articulate andpowerful supporter of school choice.
Families having the right topick their child's school.
And that often includes differencesin the curriculum that the different
schools teach.
And that's one of the reasonsparents choose one school.
They like its curriculum better.
(17:05):
But how does that work in a fieldlike civics or American history?
Does each school pick itsown civics curriculum?
Or doesn't a country like this needa kind of a common civics curriculum?
Regardless of what school you go to,if we're going to come out as one country,
how do you navigate the appeal ofschool choice with the desire for
(17:28):
a kind of uniformityin some core subjects?
>> Paul Peterson (17:32):
Well, of course, I think that every civics education program should
help students understand the importance ofthe constitutional republic that we have.
It's a democratic republic, but it isa republic that encourages compromise,
encourages cooperation,recognizes differences,
is afraid of the tyranny of the majority,recognizes the rights of majority.
(17:57):
But within that general framework, thereare many histories that need to be taught.
And everybody, every part of ourcountry has its own history.
States require that theirstate history be taught.
I was taught about Minnesota.
I learned a lot of facts about Minnesota,
which I sort of stillenjoy having learned.
(18:18):
But other people learned about Texas orFlorida or California.
And, you know,you want to know the regions, the places.
Now there's also people come withdifferent ethnic backgrounds, historical,
historical experiences themselves,and they want to learn about it.
Whether you want to learn aboutthe Italians and how they came to this
(18:39):
country, if you're, if your school has gota very substantial Italian population,
of course you want to talk about theItalian migration, maybe spend more time
on it than somebody who's never, you know,say, okay, well, that's a group,
you know, like any other group, andI don't have to worry too much about them.
And the same would be true forpeople who come from Mexico or
(19:03):
Puerto Rico or Haiti orfrom Any other part of the world.
>> Chester Finn (19:08):
But you started with a common framework overriding these
differences, that everybody'sschool should teach.
Where does that come from?
Is that a federal government?
Is that a state government?
Is it government at all?
Where does the common framework come from?
>> Paul Peterson (19:27):
Well, we have.
Our educational system is runby local school districts.
Primarily, 80% of our studentsattend a school that's operated by
a local school districtsubject to state regulation.
So the states actually do lay downthe criteria for the curriculum.
(19:48):
And sowe primarily depend upon the states.
I would not want to give this authorityto the federal government because I think
small groups of people could getcontrol of a vast institution.
So we're much better off witha decentralized system to
set the terms for the understanding.
But I think it's really forthe responsibility of our colleges and
(20:13):
universities to set the tone andto sort of give guidance,
general guidance to the culture asto what's expected of a citizen.
And that's why it's sortof worrisome the way elite
institutions have drifted in recent years.
And it's good to see correctivemeasures being taken
(20:35):
from one higher educational systemafter another to restore a respect for
what their mission is as providingeducational leadership in our society.
>> Chester Finn (20:50):
Let me come back to that state function in terms of setting a kind
of standards orframework around the curriculum.
You're also a knownbeliever in accountability,
that there ought to be some evidencethat people have learned something by
the time they get out of school.
These days, by and large, states expectevidence that kids have learned reading
(21:12):
and math, but they don't, as far asI know, expect any evidence that kids
have learned any history orcivics at the end of their K12 experience.
Should this be added to the setof state tests or assessments or
graduation requirements or something else?
>> Paul Peterson (21:30):
Well, I think that's moving in a direction opposite of where
the country wants to go.
The idea of we're going tohave more state standardized
tests in every subject out there to makesure that people can pass that test.
That's not acceptable byour population today.
And I don't know that it'sworthwhile trying to force it.
(21:53):
I do think that whenstudents are in high school,
the courses that they take, theyshould be asked to take an examination
that's not administered bythe teacher in the classroom,
but it's a more general test thatthe state or the district or
some external group sets up as thestandard for what you should be knowing.
(22:15):
If you're going to take this course Ithink if we could move our assessments in
that direction, we could get higherlevels of performance among high school.
This is what, in fact,is done in European countries.
It's not like this isinventing a new approach.
You'll find this in Britain and France andGermany and Canada and most other places.
>> Chester Finn (22:33):
It's what some people in the ed field call an end of course exam,
which comes from outside the course,outside the teacher's classroom.
Some states have end of courseexams in some subjects that.
I mean, you live mostly in Massachusetts,which until the other day had a graduation
test that all the kids had to pass inorder to graduate from high school.
>> Paul Peterson (22:56):
Yeah, that's less interesting
than the Advanced Placement tests.
The Advanced Placement tests that we havefor a relatively small percentage of our
high school students is course specific,and I think that makes a lot of sense.
>> Chester Finn (23:10):
And those are good, rigorous exams, actually,
in the Advanced Placement program.
>> Paul Peterson (23:15):
Yes.
>> Chester Finn (23:16):
At the other end of the spectrum, however,
something like 17 states now require theirhigh school kids to pass some version
of the naturalization test that immigrantshave to pass to get into the country.
You know, this famous testthat's got a hundred questions,
multiple choice, andif you are trying to get your citizenship,
(23:36):
you have to answer 6 out of 10 or7 out of 10 correctly.
Some states, mostly red states,but not entirely now have adopted
a version of the naturalization test fortheir high school kids to pass.
Wouldn't that be a good ideato expect every kid in America
to show that they could become a citizen?
>> Paul Peterson (23:58):
That's not the first Reform I would want to spend my time
working for.
But it's not a bad idea.
Certainly not a bad idea.
But I think if you think about howyou would want to create a system of
education that would really preparepeople for civic life, I would go back
to the model that I was laying forthat the beginning of our conversation.
>> Chester Finn (24:22):
I don't disagree.
I'm just wondering where the,
where the sort of policy push tomake that happen would come from.
>> Paul Peterson (24:31):
And you see preparation for this test could be very much.
Here's a manual.
And memorize this.
>> Chester Finn (24:36):
Yeah, and it is for the naturalization test,
like the driver's test that you take.
Here's a book of 100questions you might be asked.
Here are the answers.
If you learn the answersto the hundred questions,
you'll probably answer the 10correctly that they actually ask you.
And newcomers to the United States dohave something like that they can study.
(24:58):
On the other hand, if those enteringHarvard students we were talking about
a few minutes ago had all passed thenaturalization test, they had arrived with
some of the basic knowledge thatyou were saying they don't have.
>> Paul Peterson (25:11):
Perhaps, but I think they would still need to take my class.
>> Chester Finn (25:15):
The class that you're trying to make obsolete.
We talked earlier about adding to today'sconversation a kind of open ended
opportunity for you to talk a littleabout what understanding of American
democracy should be taught, especiallyin the K 12 years, but also in college.
And you've discussed that a little bit.
But I wanted to give you a chanceto elaborate a bit on that approach
(25:38):
because we're heading towardsCivic Learning Week and
we've got a lot of educators interested inhow to do this better than we're doing it.
Just go back and say,what's the elements of American democracy?
Would you like students to learn?
>> Paul Peterson (25:55):
Well, I think the main concern I have about a lot of
the conversation over civiceducation today is that they say we
need to have civic education fordemocracy.
Maybe not even American democracy,just democracy.
How can we make oursystem more democratic?
And by democratic,
(26:15):
it too often is made synonymouswith the concept of majority rule.
A majority rule means that whoevermanages to get 51% should be
having total power over the system,whether we give it to the president or
we give it to a majority in Congress orwhatever.
(26:36):
And so the impediments to thatare seen as a problem for democracy.
And I do see this inconversations with students.
They're concerned about the electoralcollege and they're concerned about
the federal system where states don't goalong with what the federal government,
they want the same laws everywhere,instead of different laws in different
(26:56):
places, depending on whohappens to be living there.
So I think what I would like peopleto think about when they think about
civic education is think about how tocreate a constitutional democracy,
a democracy that encourages consensus.
Madison, in his famous essayin the Federalist papers,
(27:17):
the Federalist 10,he said, well, you know,
the tyranny we have to fear the mostis the tyranny of the majority.
The majority, once they get power,
can impose a lot on thosewho don't have that power.
And that can be a dreadful thing.
And of course, it was a dreadfulthing when the majority was white and
(27:39):
they imposed a tyrannyon the black slaves.
So the tyranny of the majorityis the thing to fear the most,
not the tyranny of little minorities.
And so if we can have a civics educationprogram that prepares people for
participation inthe constitutional republic,
that's the kind of goal that Iwould like to see those who want to
(28:02):
reform our civic educationprogram always keep in mind.
>> Chester Finn (28:06):
That was very Madisonian, and that was also, I think,
a very nice way to conclude our leadup to Civic Learning Week 2025.
And also to keep in mind asthe United States embarks upon its new
chapter in 2025 with a majorityobviously in Washington,
that is, we hope,going to do mostly good things.
(28:30):
This has been Paul Peterson and CheckerFinn, on behalf of the Hoover Institution,
and we thank you very much forbeing with us today.
[MUSIC]
>> Chester Finn (00:09):
Isn't it crazy to keep expecting American schools to teach kids
anything about civics?
We've been trying for decades, maybe,maybe centuries, to get schools to teach
kids American civics, and they seemto come out not knowing anything.
Shouldn't we just.
Shouldn't we just quit trying?
>> Paul Peterson (00:25):
Well, we've had a constitution for over 200 years, and
it's still in place, and our peoplestill support their government, and
they must have learned this somewhere.
And the schools couldn'thave been too bad for
the system to work aswell as it does today.
So I think that's a prettyextreme statement, actually.
Mr. Finn.
>> Chester Finn (00:46):
Well, I'm given to extreme statements, and
I'm happy to see you here today.
I'm Chester Finn, known as Checker, andI am here today with Paul Peterson,
Professor Government at Harvard, seniorfellow at the Hoover Institution, and head
of Harvard's Program in Education Policyand Governance, and an old friend of mine.
(01:06):
And we are here to talk about civics inAmerican education, mostly elementary,
secondary.
It's great to be with you.
So what are your thoughts about theessential elements that the schools should
be imparting to our kidsduring their K12 years?
>> Paul Peterson (01:21):
Well, I look at this from the point of view of a person who
teaches students arriving on collegecampus, finishing high school.
They're now ready to move onto more specialized studies.
And I'm teaching Introductionto American Government,
the very first course they takein politics on the campus.
(01:42):
And I find them falling farshort of where they need to be.
>> Chester Finn (01:47):
This is at Harvard?
>> Paul Peterson (01:48):
And this is at Harvard, and it's a pretty good place.
And there's a prettytalented group of students.
And I'm not talking about every student.
There's some who really do know a lotabout the American institutions and
American political history.
But there's, sadly, a very large numberof students who know very little.
(02:09):
They know a lot aboutthe Revolutionary period, or
at least about some aspectsof the revolutionary period.
And they may know a little bit aboutthe Civil War or the Gettysburg Address,
but there's a lot of material thatthey're completely unaware of.
So I would say we really need toteach our political history to young
(02:31):
people in a more thorough waythan we have in the past and
to show how our institutions today emergeout of the experiences of the past.
So that we are a dynamic societythat's been constantly changing, but
we're fundamentally structured by.
By the Constitution,which was written back in 1789.
>> Chester Finn (02:53):
So do you find your students just sort of ignorant or.
The ones you're talking about,or are they also kind of biased?
Do they come in thinking that America'sa terrible place because that's what their
courses have been teaching them, orare they triumphalists who think
that everything's hunky dory andit always has been?
>> Paul Peterson (03:10):
Well, of course, there's some of both.
There's some who think the American systemis the best thing that's ever happened,
and there's some people who thinkit's terrible and has to be changed.
But I would say the bulk, the largebulk of them are just uninformed,
do not know very much,and are eager to learn.
I actually love teaching this coursebecause there is such eagerness
(03:34):
among young people to knowmore about their institutions.
I don't think this is a hard task.
This is a task that young peopleare eager to participate in.
So I don't think it's likegiving them some medications,
a teaspoonful of codliver oil in the morning.
>> Chester Finn (03:54):
So imagine if the K12 system was doing a really good job
of this, both the civic side andthe history side.
Would your current course still benecessary or would it change in a big way?
>> Paul Peterson (04:08):
Yeah, no, I'd like to make my course unnecessary.
I don't expect to be fired soon,but it would be nice to, To.
To have this as too redundant.
We've already done, andfor some students it is.
And I, when they come by to see me,they've.
If I tell me they've hadan excellent education in this area,
(04:31):
then I say,you should go to more specialized courses.
Go learn something about Congress orabout the presidency or
the court system and in greater detail.
Yes, there are some that are like that,but too many really need.
And even the people who helped me teachthe course, and these are now graduate
(04:52):
students, will not have an understandingof the system as a whole, though they
may know a lot of quantitative informationabout some specific aspect of it.
>> Chester Finn (05:02):
So nobody thinks about Harvard as a remedial institution for
its entering undergraduates?
On the contrary.
And yet you're describing something thatin many respects is a compensatory or
remedial course forthings they should have already learned.
Or am I mishearing you?
>> Paul Peterson (05:21):
Well, I think there's some truth to that.
It's true that we travel over thismaterial much more quickly than you would
at the high school level.
It's true that we go into detailsmuch more extensively than
you might do in the high school context.
But yes, there's, for example,
people have a very littleunderstanding of the federal system?
(05:45):
What is the division of responsibilitiesbetween the national government and
the state governments?
How much money is beingspent by state governments?
Is it really half of all of our domesticexpenditure is being raised locally and
spent locally by our local governments andour state governments?
When I tell my students that, I think thatthis is striking information that they
(06:06):
have never thought of and wouldn't havebelieved if somebody had told them that
out of the classroom,that's really interesting.
>> Chester Finn (06:15):
You're, in effect, it sounds like merging government, civics,
and history in your approachto teaching this in your mind.
Are these commingledsubjects in high school?
They're typically taught separately.
>> Paul Peterson (06:29):
One of the things I love to do is to talk about the different
periods in American history.
The founding period,the Jeffersonian period,
when the plantation owners from Virginiatake over the national government.
And then when the Jacksonians come fromthe west and they trample on the furniture
in the White House and they change,the spoil system comes into play.
(06:53):
And then all of a sudden,we have the Civil War and
Abraham Lincoln comes along and, and.
And the slaves are freed anda new era is begun.
And we have a Republican Party andthe Democratic Party for the first time.
And then you go down toWilliam Jennings Bryan, and
William Jennings Bryan is a fascinatingforce who never becomes president.
But nonetheless ensures thatthe Republican Party will be the dominant
(07:16):
party until Franklin Delano Rooseveltcomes along and
Franklin Delano Roosevelt changes America.
And then we have Barry Goldwater.
So, you know to get an overview ofAmerican history by seeing how all
of these political eras fit together andtell a story.
And the story is a complicated one.
It's not a simple one.
It's not like, okay, this isthe greatest country marching forward,
(07:40):
upward andupward without any slips and tumbles.
No, it's not that.
But nonetheless,it's a story of hope and progress.
>> Chester Finn (07:48):
So you are intertwining the civics and
the history in the wayyou approach the subject.
If I'm hearing you correctly.
>> Paul Peterson (07:55):
The basic question I ask is, is this a.
An exceptional country now Donald Trumpsays we're exceptional other
people say we're not exceptional.
I say the question is the United Statesexceptional or is it simply different?
We know that it's different.
We have different institutions from ourEuropean friends, from our Asian friends,
(08:19):
that it's a unique set ofpolitical institutions
that were created by our Constitution.
We have a federal system,we have separation of powers.
Well, does that make us exceptional ordoes it just make us different?
And you can argue that questionboth ways and in the end,
I leave it up to the students to decide.
>> Chester Finn (08:36):
This is fascinating and as you know,
we're having this conversationpartly because in a few weeks
Civic Learning Week is going to descendupon the United States in March.
And including a marvelous one-daycivic summit at the Hoover Institution
co-sponsored with civics to sortof capstone of this week and
(09:00):
in anticipation we are paying a lotof attention to how civics is.
Or is not being taught andlearned at both the K12 level and
the higher education level?
And you're an interesting sort oflinchpin between those two levels,
albeit at an elite institution.
So the approach to howthese things can and
(09:23):
should be taught as you're articulating,it's really very interesting for
me and I suspect fora lot of educators in this field.
But speaking of educators in this field,are we preparing them adequately?
That's one of the jobs of universities,
is to train the teachers that teachthe kids in the schools social studies.
(09:45):
My impression is they might notknow very much about it themselves.
>> Paul Peterson (09:48):
Well, I've never taught inside a school of education, so
I don't really know how it works there.
But I tend to feel that teachersare being encouraged to focus on
the rights of students.
So what is teachers tend to say,
what are your rights?
(10:10):
When can you use them?
How to use them?
How can you participate moreeffectively in your local community,
in your national community?
So there's a lot of focus on engagement ofthe student in political activities and
there's absolutelynothing wrong with that.
I have just finished readinga book about Mitch McConnell and
(10:32):
he was a student bodypresident in high school.
>> Chester Finn (10:37):
Why am I not surprised, okay?
>> Paul Peterson (10:40):
And he plotted that.
He, got all the, the basketball team andthe cheerleaders to all support him.
And even though he had a limpbecause he had had polio, he didn't,
wasn't able to do.
Although he was a prettygood baseball player,
he nonetheless found a way to get thesupport he needed to win that election.
(11:02):
And one of the things he said.
And if you don't mind,
I'd like to just quote it because it'ssuch a neat little statement that he made.
He said the student government's purpose.
Now he's elected is not student body.
The student government's purpose is tofoster such a loyalty, cooperative spirit.
(11:26):
That students will assume allresponsibilities outside the classroom,
thereby practicing citizenshipin preparation for
participation in city,state, and national affairs.
So what he does is responsible.
We need to learn how to be responsible sothat we can be entrusted with
(11:47):
running everything at this schoolhaving to do with student affairs.
So on the one hand, he's calling fordemocracy, for student control, and
on the other hand, he's calling forstudent responsibility.
And I think that's really how weshould think about that participatory
(12:08):
dimension of instruction forpreparation and for citizenship.
>> Chester Finn (12:13):
This is important partly because what some people call action
civics is controversial in many circles.
As if going and picketing the citycouncil was taking, substituting for
learning about the wheel,how the wheels of government work and
how bills become laws andso forth and so on.
(12:33):
You're describing andyou're an enthusiast for
a participatory element,at least to the civics education.
>> Paul Peterson (12:42):
For those who want it.
It's not the case that every studentin a high school is gonna want to
be a member of the student government.
And that's to fully understandable.
Some students are gonna be much betteroff playing on the basketball team or
participating in the theater program orlearning how to play the cornet or
(13:03):
the or the violin.
And so you wouldn't wanteverybody to be engaged in
the way Mitch McConnell wasengaged in high school.
>> Chester Finn (13:14):
Probably not, though I could see distilling a bit of a civics
lesson out of being on the basketballteam or in the orchestra.
I mean, there's a degree of collaboration,cooperation give and take, compromise.
Many of the elements of student governmentarise in an orchestra or a team.
>> Paul Peterson (13:35):
That's actually a really important insight checker that
you've just articulated, that so
much of what high school is aboutis learning how to be cooperative.
And to work with your colleagues andto work with your fellow students.
And sometimes that's better taught inour extracurricular activities than in
(13:55):
the core subjects that werebeing taught in high school.
And maybe we need to think moreabout how we could have education,
peer group education could benefita lot by thinking about how do
kids learn how to play the violin?
I have a granddaughter right now who'slearning how to play the violin.
She learns from her fellowstudents more than anybody else.
>> Chester Finn (14:15):
That's really interesting.
It also speaks to whether the teacherof a so called civics course can help
draw lessons out of other experiencesthat the students are having,
such as their extracurricular activities.
In other words, it doesn't have to just bea dry textbook course that says there's
two senators per state.
(14:35):
And here's how the federal system works.
You can also relate it to things kids areprobably engaged in one at one place or
another.
>> Paul Peterson (14:43):
Right and it's of course more interesting when you learn that we
have two senators from every state.
When you know what a fight they did haveat the Constitutional Convention over that
very issue.
That need not be a dullfact that you just learned.
If you understand it inits historical context.
It tells you a lot of things aboutourselves and how we sought for
(15:04):
compromise when we created this country.
>> Chester Finn (15:07):
During that hot summer in Philadelphia,
when they were arguing over big thingslike whether big states should have more
power than little states statesin the federal government.
>> Paul Peterson (15:16):
Yes little did they well, there was a sense that they knew
that state control was importantto address the slavery question.
Because from the very beginning,slavery was a curse that the country
had to deal with, andyou couldn't deal with it in 1789.
That was not a time in our history.
(15:39):
We would have fallen apart as a country.
We would never form.
We would have had two nations.
We would have then been subjectto foreign manipulation.
So, the timing to solve the slaveryquestion emerges gradually over time.
And it's a struggle.
And this can be taught ina very negative way as the.
(15:59):
The New York Times would want it to be.
But it can also be taughtin a very positive way to
show how this country managedto deal with this problem.
Not without tremendous.
I mean,a million soldiers died in the Civil War,
it's->> Chester Finn: The most of any war.
(16:20):
Most of any war.
So it was a terrible thing.
And then it was followed by a periodof segregated institutions for century.
So we have to understandthe pain of our history
as well as the greatinstitutions that we have today.
>> Chester Finn (16:43):
I want to shift gears with you a little bit because you
are a well known, articulate andpowerful supporter of school choice.
Families having the right topick their child's school.
And that often includes differencesin the curriculum that the different
schools teach.
And that's one of the reasonsparents choose one school.
They like its curriculum better.
(17:05):
But how does that work in a fieldlike civics or American history?
Does each school pick itsown civics curriculum?
Or doesn't a country like this needa kind of a common civics curriculum?
Regardless of what school you go to,if we're going to come out as one country,
how do you navigate the appeal ofschool choice with the desire for
(17:28):
a kind of uniformityin some core subjects?
>> Paul Peterson (17:32):
Well, of course, I think that every civics education program should
help students understand the importance ofthe constitutional republic that we have.
It's a democratic republic, but it isa republic that encourages compromise,
encourages cooperation,recognizes differences,
is afraid of the tyranny of the majority,recognizes the rights of majority.
(17:57):
But within that general framework, thereare many histories that need to be taught.
And everybody, every part of ourcountry has its own history.
States require that theirstate history be taught.
I was taught about Minnesota.
I learned a lot of facts about Minnesota,
which I sort of stillenjoy having learned.
(18:18):
But other people learned about Texas orFlorida or California.
And, you know,you want to know the regions, the places.
Now there's also people come withdifferent ethnic backgrounds, historical,
historical experiences themselves,and they want to learn about it.
Whether you want to learn aboutthe Italians and how they came to this
(18:39):
country, if you're, if your school has gota very substantial Italian population,
of course you want to talk about theItalian migration, maybe spend more time
on it than somebody who's never, you know,say, okay, well, that's a group,
you know, like any other group, andI don't have to worry too much about them.
And the same would be true forpeople who come from Mexico or
(19:03):
Puerto Rico or Haiti orfrom Any other part of the world.
>> Chester Finn (19:08):
But you started with a common framework overriding these
differences, that everybody'sschool should teach.
Where does that come from?
Is that a federal government?
Is that a state government?
Is it government at all?
Where does the common framework come from?
>> Paul Peterson (19:27):
Well, we have.
Our educational system is runby local school districts.
Primarily, 80% of our studentsattend a school that's operated by
a local school districtsubject to state regulation.
So the states actually do lay downthe criteria for the curriculum.
(19:48):
And sowe primarily depend upon the states.
I would not want to give this authorityto the federal government because I think
small groups of people could getcontrol of a vast institution.
So we're much better off witha decentralized system to
set the terms for the understanding.
But I think it's really forthe responsibility of our colleges and
(20:13):
universities to set the tone andto sort of give guidance,
general guidance to the culture asto what's expected of a citizen.
And that's why it's sortof worrisome the way elite
institutions have drifted in recent years.
And it's good to see correctivemeasures being taken
(20:35):
from one higher educational systemafter another to restore a respect for
what their mission is as providingeducational leadership in our society.
>> Chester Finn (20:50):
Let me come back to that state function in terms of setting a kind
of standards orframework around the curriculum.
You're also a knownbeliever in accountability,
that there ought to be some evidencethat people have learned something by
the time they get out of school.
These days, by and large, states expectevidence that kids have learned reading
(21:12):
and math, but they don't, as far asI know, expect any evidence that kids
have learned any history orcivics at the end of their K12 experience.
Should this be added to the setof state tests or assessments or
graduation requirements or something else?
>> Paul Peterson (21:30):
Well, I think that's moving in a direction opposite of where
the country wants to go.
The idea of we're going tohave more state standardized
tests in every subject out there to makesure that people can pass that test.
That's not acceptable byour population today.
And I don't know that it'sworthwhile trying to force it.
(21:53):
I do think that whenstudents are in high school,
the courses that they take, theyshould be asked to take an examination
that's not administered bythe teacher in the classroom,
but it's a more general test thatthe state or the district or
some external group sets up as thestandard for what you should be knowing.
(22:15):
If you're going to take this course Ithink if we could move our assessments in
that direction, we could get higherlevels of performance among high school.
This is what, in fact,is done in European countries.
It's not like this isinventing a new approach.
You'll find this in Britain and France andGermany and Canada and most other places.
>> Chester Finn (22:33):
It's what some people in the ed field call an end of course exam,
which comes from outside the course,outside the teacher's classroom.
Some states have end of courseexams in some subjects that.
I mean, you live mostly in Massachusetts,which until the other day had a graduation
test that all the kids had to pass inorder to graduate from high school.
>> Paul Peterson (22:56):
Yeah, that's less interesting
than the Advanced Placement tests.
The Advanced Placement tests that we havefor a relatively small percentage of our
high school students is course specific,and I think that makes a lot of sense.
>> Chester Finn (23:10):
And those are good, rigorous exams, actually,
in the Advanced Placement program.
>> Paul Peterson (23:15):
Yes.
>> Chester Finn (23:16):
At the other end of the spectrum, however,
something like 17 states now require theirhigh school kids to pass some version
of the naturalization test that immigrantshave to pass to get into the country.
You know, this famous testthat's got a hundred questions,
multiple choice, andif you are trying to get your citizenship,
(23:36):
you have to answer 6 out of 10 or7 out of 10 correctly.
Some states, mostly red states,but not entirely now have adopted
a version of the naturalization test fortheir high school kids to pass.
Wouldn't that be a good ideato expect every kid in America
to show that they could become a citizen?
>> Paul Peterson (23:58):
That's not the first Reform I would want to spend my time
working for.
But it's not a bad idea.
Certainly not a bad idea.
But I think if you think about howyou would want to create a system of
education that would really preparepeople for civic life, I would go back
to the model that I was laying forthat the beginning of our conversation.
>> Chester Finn (24:22):
I don't disagree.
I'm just wondering where the,
where the sort of policy push tomake that happen would come from.
>> Paul Peterson (24:31):
And you see preparation for this test could be very much.
Here's a manual.
And memorize this.
>> Chester Finn (24:36):
Yeah, and it is for the naturalization test,
like the driver's test that you take.
Here's a book of 100questions you might be asked.
Here are the answers.
If you learn the answersto the hundred questions,
you'll probably answer the 10correctly that they actually ask you.
And newcomers to the United States dohave something like that they can study.
(24:58):
On the other hand, if those enteringHarvard students we were talking about
a few minutes ago had all passed thenaturalization test, they had arrived with
some of the basic knowledge thatyou were saying they don't have.
>> Paul Peterson (25:11):
Perhaps, but I think they would still need to take my class.
>> Chester Finn (25:15):
The class that you're trying to make obsolete.
We talked earlier about adding to today'sconversation a kind of open ended
opportunity for you to talk a littleabout what understanding of American
democracy should be taught, especiallyin the K 12 years, but also in college.
And you've discussed that a little bit.
But I wanted to give you a chanceto elaborate a bit on that approach
(25:38):
because we're heading towardsCivic Learning Week and
we've got a lot of educators interested inhow to do this better than we're doing it.
Just go back and say,what's the elements of American democracy?
Would you like students to learn?
>> Paul Peterson (25:55):
Well, I think the main concern I have about a lot of
the conversation over civiceducation today is that they say we
need to have civic education fordemocracy.
Maybe not even American democracy,just democracy.
How can we make oursystem more democratic?
And by democratic,
(26:15):
it too often is made synonymouswith the concept of majority rule.
A majority rule means that whoevermanages to get 51% should be
having total power over the system,whether we give it to the president or
we give it to a majority in Congress orwhatever.
(26:36):
And so the impediments to thatare seen as a problem for democracy.
And I do see this inconversations with students.
They're concerned about the electoralcollege and they're concerned about
the federal system where states don't goalong with what the federal government,
they want the same laws everywhere,instead of different laws in different
(26:56):
places, depending on whohappens to be living there.
So I think what I would like peopleto think about when they think about
civic education is think about how tocreate a constitutional democracy,
a democracy that encourages consensus.
Madison, in his famous essayin the Federalist papers,
(27:17):
the Federalist 10,he said, well, you know,
the tyranny we have to fear the mostis the tyranny of the majority.
The majority, once they get power,
can impose a lot on thosewho don't have that power.
And that can be a dreadful thing.
And of course, it was a dreadfulthing when the majority was white and
(27:39):
they imposed a tyrannyon the black slaves.
So the tyranny of the majorityis the thing to fear the most,
not the tyranny of little minorities.
And so if we can have a civics educationprogram that prepares people for
participation inthe constitutional republic,
that's the kind of goal that Iwould like to see those who want to
(28:02):
reform our civic educationprogram always keep in mind.
>> Chester Finn (28:06):
That was very Madisonian, and that was also, I think,
a very nice way to conclude our leadup to Civic Learning Week 2025.
And also to keep in mind asthe United States embarks upon its new
chapter in 2025 with a majorityobviously in Washington,
that is, we hope,going to do mostly good things.
(28:30):
This has been Paul Peterson and CheckerFinn, on behalf of the Hoover Institution,
and we thank you very much forbeing with us today.
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