February 25, 2025 • 37 mins
Can colleges and secondary schools teach American civics (i.e., an examination of the republic’s good and bad experiences) without being jingoistic? Peter Berkowitz, the Hoover Institution’s Tad and Dianne Taube senior fellow and teacher of a course in American conservatism that’s part of the Stanford Civics Initiative, contends that “patriotism” isn’t necessarily indoctrination. Still, reformers need to look beyond college and the late stages of high school. In a wide-ranging discussion with Volker Senior Fellow (adjunct) “Checker” Finn, Berkowitz suggests that the definition of “civics education” be widened to include core learning at the earliest stages of K-12 and a deeper look at how teachers approach their mission.
Recorded on January 14, 2025.
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>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (00:09):
Shouldn't we just forget about teaching patriotism to kids
these days in schools and
colleges, in their social studies class,in their civics class?
I mean, isn't patriotism itself sucha battleground in the culture wars
that it's not worth even trying?
What do you think?
>> Peter Berkowitz (00:26):
Well, first of all, what's patriotism?
Patriotism is love of country.
It's no doubt difficult to teachin our schools at any time,
particularly in this time.
But what do we really mean by it?
We say love of country.
We mean that our country deservesa certain respect, admiration, and
(00:46):
gratitude.
I think our schools can teach this, but
I also think we should take some wisdom,really, from parents here.
Parents want to be respected, admired.
They want gratitude shown toward them.
But they don't say to their children,respect me, admire me,
(01:08):
show gratitude toward me.
They conduct themselves in waysthat are worthy of respect,
admiration, and gratitude.
So, of course,patriotism can't be taught by lecturing,
by hectoring childrento love their country.
But I believe if you tell the story ofAmerica, you show America's greatness,
(01:31):
the principles for which it stood,you show America's achievements.
And its failings, you will developin children through the course of
their education, K through 12,a respect for America and
admiration for America andeven gratitude toward America.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (01:49):
I can't dispute any of that, but
I'm gonna push you on a few parts of it.
I'm Chester Finn, known as Checker.
I'm joined today by Peter Berkowitz,a Hoover Institution Senior Fellow,
prolific author,winner of the Bradley Prize, columnist.
(02:09):
Writes almost every day somethingworth reading, almost every day.
It's a treat to have thisconversation with you,
Peter, and I wonder if we would do better.
In order to take sort of sand the sharpedge off the word patriotism,
(02:32):
should we use one of those otherphrases like informed patriotism,
which I believe Ronald Reagan used.
Or even Tocqueville's phrase,which when he came 200 years ago,
which I believe was reflective patriotism.
Does adding a modifier help,or isn't it necessary?
>> Peter Berkowitz (02:52):
I think it helps because, of course,
we do want informed patriotism.
We want thoughtful love of ournation of course it helps.
Moreover, education in America,education for
American citizenship means helping formstudents who can think for themselves.
(03:14):
So, of course we want them to be informed.
But the real challenge,it seems to me, for
our education today is not the preciseword we choose to describe love for
respect, for admiration, forgratitude to our country.
But the way in whichwe teach our students,
that's what's got to besignificantly improved, I think.
(03:36):
We do need to return to the basics.
We need to teach Americanhistory much better than we do.
That's going to includean account of the achievements,
real achievements for those of us whoadmire liberty and real failings.
You can call that, it would be trueto call it informed patriotism, but
(04:00):
that's where it begins.
In a responsible account, a responsibleintroduction to the story of America.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (04:07):
You're talking obviously about history as well as civics.
You're really talking aboutthe whole swath of social studies,
as they normally call it in the schools.
You're probably talking beyond that even,because a lot of what you're getting
at seems to me to get into what literatureare people reading in English class.
(04:28):
And how are they talking aboutthe literature that they're
reading in English class andhistory of science.
I mean, there are a whole variety ofelements of this that you could get at
almost across the curriculum,couldn't you?
>> Peter Berkowitz (04:42):
Well, yes, you could.
And you anticipate a point I wanted to be
sure to make from my point of view.
Civic education is the wholething is education generally.
It's not just a study of American history.
But yes, after all,we want citizens to be introduced during
(05:05):
the K through 12 years tothe basics of science.
We want our young people to introduceto the basics of literature.
We want them to learn how to write.
We want them to know history, want them toknow history outside of American history,
Western civilization, other civilization,of course we want all that.
(05:25):
And we want the students to beintroduced in the right spirit.
So a biology professor who teaches his orher students with respect,
who excites curiosity forhis or her subject, is,
from my point of view,advancing civic education.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (05:46):
Two things I wanna probe here.
You often talk, in talks andin writing about liberal education.
Another phrase that's sometimescontroversial these days,
especially in higher education.
We don't talk about liberal education veryoften in the K12 world, which is not a.
(06:07):
We're more likely to say corecurriculum or something like that.
And yet core curriculum doesn't beginto evoke the spirit that the zeitgeist,
if I think you're talking abouttrying to get across to kids.
Am I hearing you right?
>> Peter Berkowitz (06:24):
You are hearing me right.
So, and let me emphasize the point.
It seems to me that all education,especially basic education,
really ought to be oriented towardproducing citizens for a free society.
That means citizens whounderstand their rights,
(06:47):
who are capable of exercising theirrights, students who understand their
responsibilities and are capable ofdischarging their responsibilities.
So from my point of view,even as we begin with kindergarten,
we're thinking about even the mostbasic elements of literacy.
Why has the state gotan interest in literacy?
(07:08):
Seems to me it's got an interest inliteracy because it's got an interest,
ultimately, in informed citizens.
And you can't be informed citizenwithout the ability to have some,
at least basic competence in reading andwriting.
So for me,all education in a free society,
an American society,is oriented around America's
(07:32):
concern with citizens whoare reasonably well informed
about what their country stands forand how it's governed.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (07:43):
You're talking also about pedagogy, about how a teacher,
how an instructor conducts themselves.
Goes about imparting the knowledge andskills and,
I guess, attitudes and beliefs.
Are you not?
>> Peter Berkowitz (08:01):
I am very much so.
And I think as much as in college,so too in K-12,
I think John Stuart Mill put it nicely.
It's not the job of a teacherto impose his or her judgment.
It's the job of the teacherto help form and
train the judgment of his or her students.
(08:23):
Needless to say, in kindergarten,in first grade and second grade and
third grade, we're much moreconcerned with learning the basics.
Even more should teachers shy away from,
I use a strong word here, indoctrination.
(08:43):
But always, it seems to me,all teachers from kindergarten on up,
it seems to me, are in one way oranother in the business
of informing andrefining a student's judgement.
And you mentioned pedagogy, Checker.
That includes the way we teachersconduct ourselves in the classroom,
(09:06):
the way we show respectto all of our students.
That showing of respect will take oneform in first grade, another form in
sophomore year of high school,another form of senior year in college.
But showing respect to the variety ofstudents, awakening curiosity in them,
listening carefully.
All of this basic parts of pedagogywhich contribute to, it seems to me,
(09:28):
educating citizens in a free society.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (09:30):
Let me note that we're just weeks away from
Civic Learning Week inthe middle of March,
which has been observed inK-12 education every year for
several years and is this yearexpanding to include higher education.
And this year is gonna culminatein a Grand Summit on March 13
at the Hoover Institution in Palo Alto.
(09:53):
The first time it's everhappened west of the Potomac,
as I understand it,which I think is pretty exciting.
But many of the people participating willindeed be practicing educators, including
teachers such as you were describing,perhaps some kindergarten teachers.
Most definitely high school andmiddle school teachers and college folks.
(10:15):
But I wanna come back to kindergarten for
a second because it's hard to picturewhat goes on in kindergarten that is A,
helpful, and B,itself not potentially controversial.
The Pledge of Allegiance,which you might start in kindergarten.
I can picture an agitated parent orsome kind of watchdog coming in and
(10:38):
saying, that's indoctrination.
You're indoctrinating thesefive year olds into some
kind of blind obedience tothe United States of America.
There's a bunch of controversial audienceswatching what goes on in our schools as
well as our colleges.
(10:58):
I'm trying to think about thisfrom the teacher's perspective.
What does the teacher sayback to that agitated parent?
>> Peter Berkowitz (11:04):
I must acknowledge that I am no expert on kindergarten
education.
And I must also acknowledge that I cansee in 20, I was about to say 2024,
but in 2025,that even something like the Pledge of
Allegiance, which I recited as a->> Chester E. Finn Jr.: As
a kindergartener, I'll bet.
(11:26):
As a kindergartener, no doubt, and even in higher grades,
I can see how this would be controversial.
So let me though, make a general point.
It seems to me that it is notin general indoctrination for
American public schools to be pro America,okay?
(11:48):
Now, how that's going to receiveexpression in kindergarten, first grade,
second grade, all the way through highschool, I can't say with any precision.
I defer to you, who have a lifetimeof expertise in these matters.
But I do have some advice forteachers who need to deal with parents
(12:08):
who think that being pro American issomehow involved with indoctrination.
First of all, it seems to me we haveto recognize that state must have some
reason why it uses taxpayer dollarsin order to provide public education.
(12:28):
It seems to me the largest reason isbecause we want to form good citizens.
The very idea of forming goodcitizens implies that the country
of which these young peoplewill become full citizens as
they grow up is a country worthunderstanding, maintaining and improving.
(12:51):
That's already to be pro American.
I have to also, of course,
emphasize to be pro American is notto be pro Democrat or pro Republican.
It's actually to be interested.
And those ideas, those institutions,those practices,
those dispositions, that sensibility that
(13:13):
under-girds this wholeexperiment in ordered liberty.
That experiment whichis home to Democrats,
Republicans and other political types.
So on the question of the pledge,I'm going to say,
let the experts debate that one.
But a pro American publiceducation seems to me
(13:36):
the kind of education we ought to have.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (13:40):
Yes, and
the formation of citizens as a sortof profound, fundamental, maybe even
foremost goal of educating the publicis important, I think emphasize here.
Because sooften public education is justified and
the expenditure of dollars forit entirely in utilitarian terms,
(14:00):
it's the preparation of people forthe workforce.
People who can earn a living,pay their taxes and so forth, rather than
the civic function, the citizenfunction that we've been talking about.
I think this is a reorientation thatwould have to occur at many levels of
the education system where we reallydo say, well, are they ready for
(14:24):
a job when they finish high school,which job are they ready for?
College and career?
This very production function of thatkind, rather than production of citizen.
>> Peter Berkowitz (14:37):
Yes, I think this is a deep problem, but
it's also worth noting thatin some cases you get two for
one, for example, literacy.
Literacy is valuable both to free andequal citizens, and
it's also actually a valuableskill in the workplace in our
(15:00):
21st century industrial andpost industrial economy.
My impression, I should say,
is that there is plenty of roomin the curriculum to improve
citizens understanding of Americanhistory, of the highlights,
of the central debates,of the basic controversies.
(15:24):
And by the way, as you're formingmore able, more responsible citizens,
I have a strong suspicion thatyou will actually also be
forming wiser lawyers anddoctors and business executives.
Who have a better understanding ofhow their various practices and
(15:46):
their various disciplines pre-supposea functioning rights protecting democracy.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (15:53):
I like the broad brush that we're painting with here,
because so often civics and
civic education is thought of as a singlecourse in one year in high school.
Sometimes half a course,sometimes, no course at all, but
it's pigeonholed, it's siloed,it's compressed into this.
(16:15):
Well, we're gonna do civics during thespring semester of your 12th grade after
you've already been admitted to college,and
have lost interest inhigh school entirely.
So, the mere fact that we're talking aboutthis as ranging across the years and
also across the curriculum is, I think,
a pretty important shift in what'soften treated as civics education.
(16:38):
I wanna go beyond the K12 fora minute though,
because you do a lot of teachingof college level students.
Does what we've been talkingabout have a function there too?
So, many of them are alreadymajoring in something.
They're already embarked onbecoming computer scientists or
something like that.
What's the relevance in higher edof the kind of preparation for
(17:01):
citizenship that we've been talking about?
>> Peter Berkowitz (17:04):
Well, I think it's highly relevant partly because
we've neglected it so much in K12.
College education has of necessity,
in my experience,it's become in part remedial education.
Making up for the failure of K12to actually prepare students well
(17:24):
in regard to American history,the functioning of American institutions.
And of course, I'm not merely talkingabout how a bill becomes a law,
although that's very important knowledge,and
it's valuable forcollege students to acquire it.
(17:45):
I myself would like to see a requirementat all of our leading colleges and
universities for students to takea class in American ideas and
institutions that startsin the colonial era.
That explores the American Revolution,
(18:07):
the Declaration,the drafting of the Constitution,
the Federalists,the rise of Jacksonian democracy.
The approach of the Civil War,the conduct of Civil War,
the abolition of slavery, the fightover Jim Crow, more and more and more.
(18:29):
In my experience,even the students who come to my classes,
which are classes thatare focused on these issues,
I find have a thin knowledge of America.
And in my experience, and
I've taught a variety of students overthe last several years at Stanford,
(18:53):
they're very,very excited to learn about these matters.
And they immediately seethe relevance of American history and
the great debates over American principlesand the study of America's failures too.
As highly relevant to the kinds of livesthey want to live and what they're
(19:16):
going to regard as top prioritieswhen it comes to American politics.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (19:21):
As you know,
the Hoover Institution's own centeron revitalizing American institutions
is intersected withStanford University's Civics Initiative.
Including a very interestinginnovation at Stanford in recent years,
which is to expect freshmento take a civics course.
(19:42):
Which almost no college in Americathat I'm aware of mandates and
in many cases does not even offer.
Your teaching is part of that, is it not?
>> Peter Berkowitz (19:55):
My teaching is part of that.
I offer one of the coursesthat is sponsored
by the Stanford Civics Initiative and
it's also co listed inthe Stanford Political Science Department.
And we should say thatthe Stanford Civics Initiative is
the brainchild of our colleague Josh Ober,and
strongly supported by HooverInstitution Director Condoleezza Rice.
(20:21):
And I will say here too, Checker,I would go even further,
I would mandate myself a corecourse in the Stanford
civic class like the one I just mentioned.
America's political ideas,and institutions give all
students a common ground andhave more civic classes.
(20:44):
But I would also emphasize the following,
I think we shouldn't imply thatcivics education begins and
ends with the courses that we call that we
gather together under the category civics.
(21:05):
So, for example,I think that classical Greek and
Roman history should be understood as partof civic education, European history.
And so that people do not misunderstand,I also think that the study
of foreign languages and the studyof other nations and civilizations
(21:27):
should be part of civic education foran American Citizen in the 21st century.
Because you can't at the end understandfully, I would say adequately these days,
rights protecting democracy inthe United States unless you understand
historical alternatives andcontemporary alternatives.
(21:51):
So from my point of view, all that,too is part of including study of other
nations and civilizations is part ofcivic education, broadly understood.
But I'm happy to use for that,so as not to confuse people,
let's call that liberal education.
And if you allow me to say the truecivic education is liberal education.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (22:13):
So now, let me be a college sophomore for a moment and
bring you back down to Earth,Professor Berkowitz.
Professor Berkowitz,I just wanna be an engineer.
I don't need any of that stuff you'retalking about, and I don't have room for
it in my schedule.
>> Peter Berkowitz (22:28):
That's not true, young man.
Stanford already gives you some room and
the engineering department alreadygives you some room to take electives.
And I fully understand that youcannot devote yourself to the kind of
education that I'm talking about.
We all have to specialize inthe world in which we live.
(22:50):
But there's room in your schedule forone or two or three or
four such courses, and especially a courseon American ideas and institutions.
One or two courses on history andliterature and
another nation or civilization.
(23:11):
And if there's not,that's a failing of Stanford University.
Because never forget, young man,you are not only an engineering major,
you are also a citizen and a human being.
And to fulfill your responsibilitiesas also not only an engineer, but
citizen and human being, you will findthat these courses are quite valuable.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (23:35):
Well, thank you, Professor Berkowitz,
I'll go talk to my advisor andsee if she agrees with you.
Now, I'll shift back to my other role andask you to engage.
You mentioned that at the higher ed level,
much of it feels remedial to youbecause K12 is not doing its job.
Let's do a thought experiment fora moment,
(23:57):
let's assume that K12 reallygets its act together and
does a much better job of this kindof preparation for citizenship.
What is then the role, as you see it,of the college, of the higher ed element?
On top of that, if you stoppedbeing remedial, what would you be?
>> Peter Berkowitz (24:16):
You would be involved in deepening your
knowledge of that to which you'vealready been introduced to.
For example, I have now beenteaching the Federalist for
many years, many years,going into decades.
And you could take what I'm about to say
(24:39):
as a kind of criticismthat I was about to say.
Each year that I teach the Federalist, Ideepen my understanding of the Federalist.
Now the criticism might be, well,what's the matter with you?
Why couldn't you get itright the first time?
The defense of me might be, well,these are deep and enduring ideas.
(25:02):
The more I learn about politics,the more implications I see,
the more complexities I see,the more problems I see.
So I would simply say that whencolleges ceases to be remedial,
you will be farther along in the ascent.
(25:23):
It also means that you willdevote less time to the basics,
more time, let's say, to the traditionsthat form the American tradition.
After all, the American traditiondidn't spring full form out of nothing.
The American political traditionhas a root in biblical faith.
(25:47):
It has a root in classicalcivic republican teachings, and
it has a root in the Englishtradition of freedom, the common law,
John Law,going all the way back to Magna Carta.
I don't expect sophomores in high schoolto have immersed themselves in all that.
And I don't expect engineering students atStanford University to immerse themselves
(26:08):
in all that.
But less remedial education,more advanced education, but
always returning to the basics,always deepening her knowledge of
the fundamental principles andthe best in our constitutional tradition.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (26:24):
Sounds right to me.
But the instruction that is needed todo what we're discussing at actually,
at any level, whether it'selementary school or high school or
college, requires instructors,teachers who know these
things well enough themselves andas well as the pedagogy.
(26:46):
I know you're not engaged inteacher preparation as such, but
what do you suppose our institutionsthat prepare teachers need to
do differently in order to equipteachers with the capacity,
as well as the knowledge, to do someof the things we've been talking about?
(27:06):
The content, the pedagogy,the role playing,
the role modeling really,that we've been talking about.
Remember, we got almost 4 millionK12 teachers in American education.
Three and a half million,
it's the biggest single workforcewithin the American workforce.
Actually, and it's never going tobe able to be filled entirely by
(27:31):
people who've been deeply steeped inliberal learning for a very long time.
What do they need?
>> Peter Berkowitz (27:39):
Yeah, so we can reduce this to basics,
especially when we're talkingabout the teachers of very
young students who will not beentering into the intricacies of
James Madison's account ofpluralism in Federalist number ten.
But there are common sense elements of
(28:03):
liberal education that all teachers,
I think, can learn about and improve on.
First of all, it seems to methat education has to combine
these two things which sometimespull in opposite directions.
Awakening studentscuriosity about a subject,
(28:27):
also conveying the basic facts,elements of the subject.
My sense, and again I emphasizeI'm no expert on K through 12,
especially the younger grades.
But my sense over the years is thatwe neglect the basic facts for
fear of imposing on students.
(28:48):
And yet at the same time,instead of awakening curiosity,
I think we increasingly, these days,I worry that teachers bring
a set of ideas that border onideology into the classroom.
I worry that they have a checklist,they want students to embrace,
(29:11):
even very young students,embrace these judgments.
So, if we can go back to awakeningstudents curiosity about the world,
about American history,about literature, but
also ensuring that they know the basics,literacy, numeracy.
(29:32):
That rhetoric,that is that they know how to write
a grammatically sound andcoherent English sentence.
Which is now all the more urgentin a world awash in social media,
in which the incentives are to communicatein sentence fragments, let's call them.
(29:58):
So I think there's plenty that teachers
can do without expecting from teachers of
very young students the inappropriate
immersion in grand and complex ideas.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (30:19):
I'm looking at the thousand books surrounding you and
the few hundred books behind me andthinking that we are old fashioned.
In the time when kids are looking attheir phones and making little videos
on TikTok and texting four wordsentences to their friends, composing
(30:39):
a grammatical sentence even feelslike a bit of a stretch, does it not?
>> Peter Berkowitz (30:45):
It certainly does, but the argument cuts in the other direction.
Old timers like this are suddenlyeven more relevant because
we possess a knowledge that'son the verge of being lost.
Call it the knowledge of knowinghow to read a book, or for
(31:06):
that matter now,long form journalism of 1,500 words.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (31:14):
That's really long, go ahead.
>> Peter Berkowitz (31:16):
Four pages, and by the way, on a serious notice, and
now as we are talking amid the rapidrise of artificial intelligence,
college students now havethe capability of speaking a few lines.
Putting a few questions, andhaving artificial intelligence
(31:40):
churn out a seminar paper that couldpass muster in many classrooms.
In other words, we are losing a lost art,and you might say, well, good riddance.
We've lost rotary phones.
Many young people not knowwhat a rotary phone is.
They can watch movies from the 1960s.
(32:02):
In any case, I believe that stillto understand your rights and
responsibilities as a free citizen,
the art of reading booksis still highly valuable
to forming citizens in a free society.
(32:23):
So that means that we are engagedin a fight against the tides.
So be it.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (32:30):
Before we conclude, I wanna come back to patriotism
and the political difficulty of beingexplicit about it as an educational goal.
People often on the left, butnot entirely, accuse anyone that
says it of jingoism, of kind of a blind,unreasoning support for
(32:53):
somebody orsomething that they don't know much about.
But that they're being told theyhave to be in favor of kind of
an almost allergy to this positiveaffiliation with the country.
On grounds that that meansyou're affiliated with whoever
(33:14):
happens to be leadingthe country at the moment or
whoever happens to be agitatingthe country at the moment.
I think a lot of teachers in schools andmaybe in colleges,
they're probably two different problems.
But a lot of teachers in schools feellike they're being watched unless
they say something that mightindeed be accused of turning their
(33:38):
kids into jingoists or forthat matter, into anti-Americans.
Navigating that path is a very difficultchallenge for educators today.
Do you have any counsel on this problem?
Because it's a real one.
>> Peter Berkowitz (33:52):
It is a real one.
I feel it myself, and we should sayit's not just a problem of today.
This is what you're describing is reallya problem of education in a free society.
Because education in a free society isdirected at enabling students ultimately
to think for themselves, to make theirown judgments, to widen their view.
(34:18):
But you can't do any of that.
You can't judge responsiblyunless you know some basic facts,
unless you know what happened.
You can't judge responsibly.
You're not really thinking foryourself unless you're familiar with your
countries, as I said before, its greatachievements and its genuine failings.
(34:41):
You can't judge for yourself,you're not thinking freely.
You're chained by someoneelse's ideas unless
you've encountered a variety ofperspectives on your country.
And by the way, you can't think foryourself unless your teachers have
modeled for you what it is to listento a variety of perspectives.
(35:04):
So an informed patriotism, enlightenedpatriotism, is entirely proper.
It seems to me thatAbraham Lincoln was right.
The United States wasthe first country ever,
anywhere to be based on a universalprinciple, specifically universal
principle that proclaimed that all humanbeings are by nature free and equal.
(35:28):
It's also an agonizing factabout this country that
we did not adequatelyhonor that principle.
We betrayed that principle at the foundingbecause our country gave legal sanction to
the evil institution of slavery.
All this is part of liberal education.
And by the way, I should end here.
(35:51):
Again, it's not the job of a teacher.
It's not the job ofenlightened patriotism to be
celebrating the achievements ofthis president or that president.
It is the job of enlightenedpatriotism to understand
how America's fundamental principles and
basic constitutionalinstitutions have provided for
(36:16):
the citizens of this countrya freedom of religion.
Of speech, of press and petition and
assembly that has been matched by few,if any countries.
And that is a source of reason torespect America, to admire America, and
(36:36):
to be grateful America, andto try to make America better.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (36:42):
Wow, I can't think of a better introduction to
Civic Learning Week 2025.
So thank you very much, Peter Berkowitz.
It's great to be with you and I lookforward to seeing you again real soon.
>> Peter Berkowitz (36:54):
Thank you, Checker.
[MUSIC]
Shouldn't we just forget about teaching patriotism to kids
these days in schools and
colleges, in their social studies class,in their civics class?
I mean, isn't patriotism itself sucha battleground in the culture wars
that it's not worth even trying?
What do you think?
>> Peter Berkowitz (00:26):
Well, first of all, what's patriotism?
Patriotism is love of country.
It's no doubt difficult to teachin our schools at any time,
particularly in this time.
But what do we really mean by it?
We say love of country.
We mean that our country deservesa certain respect, admiration, and
(00:46):
gratitude.
I think our schools can teach this, but
I also think we should take some wisdom,really, from parents here.
Parents want to be respected, admired.
They want gratitude shown toward them.
But they don't say to their children,respect me, admire me,
(01:08):
show gratitude toward me.
They conduct themselves in waysthat are worthy of respect,
admiration, and gratitude.
So, of course,patriotism can't be taught by lecturing,
by hectoring childrento love their country.
But I believe if you tell the story ofAmerica, you show America's greatness,
(01:31):
the principles for which it stood,you show America's achievements.
And its failings, you will developin children through the course of
their education, K through 12,a respect for America and
admiration for America andeven gratitude toward America.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (01:49):
I can't dispute any of that, but
I'm gonna push you on a few parts of it.
I'm Chester Finn, known as Checker.
I'm joined today by Peter Berkowitz,a Hoover Institution Senior Fellow,
prolific author,winner of the Bradley Prize, columnist.
(02:09):
Writes almost every day somethingworth reading, almost every day.
It's a treat to have thisconversation with you,
Peter, and I wonder if we would do better.
In order to take sort of sand the sharpedge off the word patriotism,
(02:32):
should we use one of those otherphrases like informed patriotism,
which I believe Ronald Reagan used.
Or even Tocqueville's phrase,which when he came 200 years ago,
which I believe was reflective patriotism.
Does adding a modifier help,or isn't it necessary?
>> Peter Berkowitz (02:52):
I think it helps because, of course,
we do want informed patriotism.
We want thoughtful love of ournation of course it helps.
Moreover, education in America,education for
American citizenship means helping formstudents who can think for themselves.
(03:14):
So, of course we want them to be informed.
But the real challenge,it seems to me, for
our education today is not the preciseword we choose to describe love for
respect, for admiration, forgratitude to our country.
But the way in whichwe teach our students,
that's what's got to besignificantly improved, I think.
(03:36):
We do need to return to the basics.
We need to teach Americanhistory much better than we do.
That's going to includean account of the achievements,
real achievements for those of us whoadmire liberty and real failings.
You can call that, it would be trueto call it informed patriotism, but
(04:00):
that's where it begins.
In a responsible account, a responsibleintroduction to the story of America.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (04:07):
You're talking obviously about history as well as civics.
You're really talking aboutthe whole swath of social studies,
as they normally call it in the schools.
You're probably talking beyond that even,because a lot of what you're getting
at seems to me to get into what literatureare people reading in English class.
(04:28):
And how are they talking aboutthe literature that they're
reading in English class andhistory of science.
I mean, there are a whole variety ofelements of this that you could get at
almost across the curriculum,couldn't you?
>> Peter Berkowitz (04:42):
Well, yes, you could.
And you anticipate a point I wanted to be
sure to make from my point of view.
Civic education is the wholething is education generally.
It's not just a study of American history.
But yes, after all,we want citizens to be introduced during
(05:05):
the K through 12 years tothe basics of science.
We want our young people to introduceto the basics of literature.
We want them to learn how to write.
We want them to know history, want them toknow history outside of American history,
Western civilization, other civilization,of course we want all that.
(05:25):
And we want the students to beintroduced in the right spirit.
So a biology professor who teaches his orher students with respect,
who excites curiosity forhis or her subject, is,
from my point of view,advancing civic education.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (05:46):
Two things I wanna probe here.
You often talk, in talks andin writing about liberal education.
Another phrase that's sometimescontroversial these days,
especially in higher education.
We don't talk about liberal education veryoften in the K12 world, which is not a.
(06:07):
We're more likely to say corecurriculum or something like that.
And yet core curriculum doesn't beginto evoke the spirit that the zeitgeist,
if I think you're talking abouttrying to get across to kids.
Am I hearing you right?
>> Peter Berkowitz (06:24):
You are hearing me right.
So, and let me emphasize the point.
It seems to me that all education,especially basic education,
really ought to be oriented towardproducing citizens for a free society.
That means citizens whounderstand their rights,
(06:47):
who are capable of exercising theirrights, students who understand their
responsibilities and are capable ofdischarging their responsibilities.
So from my point of view,even as we begin with kindergarten,
we're thinking about even the mostbasic elements of literacy.
Why has the state gotan interest in literacy?
(07:08):
Seems to me it's got an interest inliteracy because it's got an interest,
ultimately, in informed citizens.
And you can't be informed citizenwithout the ability to have some,
at least basic competence in reading andwriting.
So for me,all education in a free society,
an American society,is oriented around America's
(07:32):
concern with citizens whoare reasonably well informed
about what their country stands forand how it's governed.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (07:43):
You're talking also about pedagogy, about how a teacher,
how an instructor conducts themselves.
Goes about imparting the knowledge andskills and,
I guess, attitudes and beliefs.
Are you not?
>> Peter Berkowitz (08:01):
I am very much so.
And I think as much as in college,so too in K-12,
I think John Stuart Mill put it nicely.
It's not the job of a teacherto impose his or her judgment.
It's the job of the teacherto help form and
train the judgment of his or her students.
(08:23):
Needless to say, in kindergarten,in first grade and second grade and
third grade, we're much moreconcerned with learning the basics.
Even more should teachers shy away from,
I use a strong word here, indoctrination.
(08:43):
But always, it seems to me,all teachers from kindergarten on up,
it seems to me, are in one way oranother in the business
of informing andrefining a student's judgement.
And you mentioned pedagogy, Checker.
That includes the way we teachersconduct ourselves in the classroom,
(09:06):
the way we show respectto all of our students.
That showing of respect will take oneform in first grade, another form in
sophomore year of high school,another form of senior year in college.
But showing respect to the variety ofstudents, awakening curiosity in them,
listening carefully.
All of this basic parts of pedagogywhich contribute to, it seems to me,
(09:28):
educating citizens in a free society.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (09:30):
Let me note that we're just weeks away from
Civic Learning Week inthe middle of March,
which has been observed inK-12 education every year for
several years and is this yearexpanding to include higher education.
And this year is gonna culminatein a Grand Summit on March 13
at the Hoover Institution in Palo Alto.
(09:53):
The first time it's everhappened west of the Potomac,
as I understand it,which I think is pretty exciting.
But many of the people participating willindeed be practicing educators, including
teachers such as you were describing,perhaps some kindergarten teachers.
Most definitely high school andmiddle school teachers and college folks.
(10:15):
But I wanna come back to kindergarten for
a second because it's hard to picturewhat goes on in kindergarten that is A,
helpful, and B,itself not potentially controversial.
The Pledge of Allegiance,which you might start in kindergarten.
I can picture an agitated parent orsome kind of watchdog coming in and
(10:38):
saying, that's indoctrination.
You're indoctrinating thesefive year olds into some
kind of blind obedience tothe United States of America.
There's a bunch of controversial audienceswatching what goes on in our schools as
well as our colleges.
(10:58):
I'm trying to think about thisfrom the teacher's perspective.
What does the teacher sayback to that agitated parent?
>> Peter Berkowitz (11:04):
I must acknowledge that I am no expert on kindergarten
education.
And I must also acknowledge that I cansee in 20, I was about to say 2024,
but in 2025,that even something like the Pledge of
Allegiance, which I recited as a->> Chester E. Finn Jr.: As
a kindergartener, I'll bet.
(11:26):
As a kindergartener, no doubt, and even in higher grades,
I can see how this would be controversial.
So let me though, make a general point.
It seems to me that it is notin general indoctrination for
American public schools to be pro America,okay?
(11:48):
Now, how that's going to receiveexpression in kindergarten, first grade,
second grade, all the way through highschool, I can't say with any precision.
I defer to you, who have a lifetimeof expertise in these matters.
But I do have some advice forteachers who need to deal with parents
(12:08):
who think that being pro American issomehow involved with indoctrination.
First of all, it seems to me we haveto recognize that state must have some
reason why it uses taxpayer dollarsin order to provide public education.
(12:28):
It seems to me the largest reason isbecause we want to form good citizens.
The very idea of forming goodcitizens implies that the country
of which these young peoplewill become full citizens as
they grow up is a country worthunderstanding, maintaining and improving.
(12:51):
That's already to be pro American.
I have to also, of course,
emphasize to be pro American is notto be pro Democrat or pro Republican.
It's actually to be interested.
And those ideas, those institutions,those practices,
those dispositions, that sensibility that
(13:13):
under-girds this wholeexperiment in ordered liberty.
That experiment whichis home to Democrats,
Republicans and other political types.
So on the question of the pledge,I'm going to say,
let the experts debate that one.
But a pro American publiceducation seems to me
(13:36):
the kind of education we ought to have.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (13:40):
Yes, and
the formation of citizens as a sortof profound, fundamental, maybe even
foremost goal of educating the publicis important, I think emphasize here.
Because sooften public education is justified and
the expenditure of dollars forit entirely in utilitarian terms,
(14:00):
it's the preparation of people forthe workforce.
People who can earn a living,pay their taxes and so forth, rather than
the civic function, the citizenfunction that we've been talking about.
I think this is a reorientation thatwould have to occur at many levels of
the education system where we reallydo say, well, are they ready for
(14:24):
a job when they finish high school,which job are they ready for?
College and career?
This very production function of thatkind, rather than production of citizen.
>> Peter Berkowitz (14:37):
Yes, I think this is a deep problem, but
it's also worth noting thatin some cases you get two for
one, for example, literacy.
Literacy is valuable both to free andequal citizens, and
it's also actually a valuableskill in the workplace in our
(15:00):
21st century industrial andpost industrial economy.
My impression, I should say,
is that there is plenty of roomin the curriculum to improve
citizens understanding of Americanhistory, of the highlights,
of the central debates,of the basic controversies.
(15:24):
And by the way, as you're formingmore able, more responsible citizens,
I have a strong suspicion thatyou will actually also be
forming wiser lawyers anddoctors and business executives.
Who have a better understanding ofhow their various practices and
(15:46):
their various disciplines pre-supposea functioning rights protecting democracy.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (15:53):
I like the broad brush that we're painting with here,
because so often civics and
civic education is thought of as a singlecourse in one year in high school.
Sometimes half a course,sometimes, no course at all, but
it's pigeonholed, it's siloed,it's compressed into this.
(16:15):
Well, we're gonna do civics during thespring semester of your 12th grade after
you've already been admitted to college,and
have lost interest inhigh school entirely.
So, the mere fact that we're talking aboutthis as ranging across the years and
also across the curriculum is, I think,
a pretty important shift in what'soften treated as civics education.
(16:38):
I wanna go beyond the K12 fora minute though,
because you do a lot of teachingof college level students.
Does what we've been talkingabout have a function there too?
So, many of them are alreadymajoring in something.
They're already embarked onbecoming computer scientists or
something like that.
What's the relevance in higher edof the kind of preparation for
(17:01):
citizenship that we've been talking about?
>> Peter Berkowitz (17:04):
Well, I think it's highly relevant partly because
we've neglected it so much in K12.
College education has of necessity,
in my experience,it's become in part remedial education.
Making up for the failure of K12to actually prepare students well
(17:24):
in regard to American history,the functioning of American institutions.
And of course, I'm not merely talkingabout how a bill becomes a law,
although that's very important knowledge,and
it's valuable forcollege students to acquire it.
(17:45):
I myself would like to see a requirementat all of our leading colleges and
universities for students to takea class in American ideas and
institutions that startsin the colonial era.
That explores the American Revolution,
(18:07):
the Declaration,the drafting of the Constitution,
the Federalists,the rise of Jacksonian democracy.
The approach of the Civil War,the conduct of Civil War,
the abolition of slavery, the fightover Jim Crow, more and more and more.
(18:29):
In my experience,even the students who come to my classes,
which are classes thatare focused on these issues,
I find have a thin knowledge of America.
And in my experience, and
I've taught a variety of students overthe last several years at Stanford,
(18:53):
they're very,very excited to learn about these matters.
And they immediately seethe relevance of American history and
the great debates over American principlesand the study of America's failures too.
As highly relevant to the kinds of livesthey want to live and what they're
(19:16):
going to regard as top prioritieswhen it comes to American politics.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (19:21):
As you know,
the Hoover Institution's own centeron revitalizing American institutions
is intersected withStanford University's Civics Initiative.
Including a very interestinginnovation at Stanford in recent years,
which is to expect freshmento take a civics course.
(19:42):
Which almost no college in Americathat I'm aware of mandates and
in many cases does not even offer.
Your teaching is part of that, is it not?
>> Peter Berkowitz (19:55):
My teaching is part of that.
I offer one of the coursesthat is sponsored
by the Stanford Civics Initiative and
it's also co listed inthe Stanford Political Science Department.
And we should say thatthe Stanford Civics Initiative is
the brainchild of our colleague Josh Ober,and
strongly supported by HooverInstitution Director Condoleezza Rice.
(20:21):
And I will say here too, Checker,I would go even further,
I would mandate myself a corecourse in the Stanford
civic class like the one I just mentioned.
America's political ideas,and institutions give all
students a common ground andhave more civic classes.
(20:44):
But I would also emphasize the following,
I think we shouldn't imply thatcivics education begins and
ends with the courses that we call that we
gather together under the category civics.
(21:05):
So, for example,I think that classical Greek and
Roman history should be understood as partof civic education, European history.
And so that people do not misunderstand,I also think that the study
of foreign languages and the studyof other nations and civilizations
(21:27):
should be part of civic education foran American Citizen in the 21st century.
Because you can't at the end understandfully, I would say adequately these days,
rights protecting democracy inthe United States unless you understand
historical alternatives andcontemporary alternatives.
(21:51):
So from my point of view, all that,too is part of including study of other
nations and civilizations is part ofcivic education, broadly understood.
But I'm happy to use for that,so as not to confuse people,
let's call that liberal education.
And if you allow me to say the truecivic education is liberal education.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (22:13):
So now, let me be a college sophomore for a moment and
bring you back down to Earth,Professor Berkowitz.
Professor Berkowitz,I just wanna be an engineer.
I don't need any of that stuff you'retalking about, and I don't have room for
it in my schedule.
>> Peter Berkowitz (22:28):
That's not true, young man.
Stanford already gives you some room and
the engineering department alreadygives you some room to take electives.
And I fully understand that youcannot devote yourself to the kind of
education that I'm talking about.
We all have to specialize inthe world in which we live.
(22:50):
But there's room in your schedule forone or two or three or
four such courses, and especially a courseon American ideas and institutions.
One or two courses on history andliterature and
another nation or civilization.
(23:11):
And if there's not,that's a failing of Stanford University.
Because never forget, young man,you are not only an engineering major,
you are also a citizen and a human being.
And to fulfill your responsibilitiesas also not only an engineer, but
citizen and human being, you will findthat these courses are quite valuable.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (23:35):
Well, thank you, Professor Berkowitz,
I'll go talk to my advisor andsee if she agrees with you.
Now, I'll shift back to my other role andask you to engage.
You mentioned that at the higher ed level,
much of it feels remedial to youbecause K12 is not doing its job.
Let's do a thought experiment fora moment,
(23:57):
let's assume that K12 reallygets its act together and
does a much better job of this kindof preparation for citizenship.
What is then the role, as you see it,of the college, of the higher ed element?
On top of that, if you stoppedbeing remedial, what would you be?
>> Peter Berkowitz (24:16):
You would be involved in deepening your
knowledge of that to which you'vealready been introduced to.
For example, I have now beenteaching the Federalist for
many years, many years,going into decades.
And you could take what I'm about to say
(24:39):
as a kind of criticismthat I was about to say.
Each year that I teach the Federalist, Ideepen my understanding of the Federalist.
Now the criticism might be, well,what's the matter with you?
Why couldn't you get itright the first time?
The defense of me might be, well,these are deep and enduring ideas.
(25:02):
The more I learn about politics,the more implications I see,
the more complexities I see,the more problems I see.
So I would simply say that whencolleges ceases to be remedial,
you will be farther along in the ascent.
(25:23):
It also means that you willdevote less time to the basics,
more time, let's say, to the traditionsthat form the American tradition.
After all, the American traditiondidn't spring full form out of nothing.
The American political traditionhas a root in biblical faith.
(25:47):
It has a root in classicalcivic republican teachings, and
it has a root in the Englishtradition of freedom, the common law,
John Law,going all the way back to Magna Carta.
I don't expect sophomores in high schoolto have immersed themselves in all that.
And I don't expect engineering students atStanford University to immerse themselves
(26:08):
in all that.
But less remedial education,more advanced education, but
always returning to the basics,always deepening her knowledge of
the fundamental principles andthe best in our constitutional tradition.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (26:24):
Sounds right to me.
But the instruction that is needed todo what we're discussing at actually,
at any level, whether it'selementary school or high school or
college, requires instructors,teachers who know these
things well enough themselves andas well as the pedagogy.
(26:46):
I know you're not engaged inteacher preparation as such, but
what do you suppose our institutionsthat prepare teachers need to
do differently in order to equipteachers with the capacity,
as well as the knowledge, to do someof the things we've been talking about?
(27:06):
The content, the pedagogy,the role playing,
the role modeling really,that we've been talking about.
Remember, we got almost 4 millionK12 teachers in American education.
Three and a half million,
it's the biggest single workforcewithin the American workforce.
Actually, and it's never going tobe able to be filled entirely by
(27:31):
people who've been deeply steeped inliberal learning for a very long time.
What do they need?
>> Peter Berkowitz (27:39):
Yeah, so we can reduce this to basics,
especially when we're talkingabout the teachers of very
young students who will not beentering into the intricacies of
James Madison's account ofpluralism in Federalist number ten.
But there are common sense elements of
(28:03):
liberal education that all teachers,
I think, can learn about and improve on.
First of all, it seems to methat education has to combine
these two things which sometimespull in opposite directions.
Awakening studentscuriosity about a subject,
(28:27):
also conveying the basic facts,elements of the subject.
My sense, and again I emphasizeI'm no expert on K through 12,
especially the younger grades.
But my sense over the years is thatwe neglect the basic facts for
fear of imposing on students.
(28:48):
And yet at the same time,instead of awakening curiosity,
I think we increasingly, these days,I worry that teachers bring
a set of ideas that border onideology into the classroom.
I worry that they have a checklist,they want students to embrace,
(29:11):
even very young students,embrace these judgments.
So, if we can go back to awakeningstudents curiosity about the world,
about American history,about literature, but
also ensuring that they know the basics,literacy, numeracy.
(29:32):
That rhetoric,that is that they know how to write
a grammatically sound andcoherent English sentence.
Which is now all the more urgentin a world awash in social media,
in which the incentives are to communicatein sentence fragments, let's call them.
(29:58):
So I think there's plenty that teachers
can do without expecting from teachers of
very young students the inappropriate
immersion in grand and complex ideas.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (30:19):
I'm looking at the thousand books surrounding you and
the few hundred books behind me andthinking that we are old fashioned.
In the time when kids are looking attheir phones and making little videos
on TikTok and texting four wordsentences to their friends, composing
(30:39):
a grammatical sentence even feelslike a bit of a stretch, does it not?
>> Peter Berkowitz (30:45):
It certainly does, but the argument cuts in the other direction.
Old timers like this are suddenlyeven more relevant because
we possess a knowledge that'son the verge of being lost.
Call it the knowledge of knowinghow to read a book, or for
(31:06):
that matter now,long form journalism of 1,500 words.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (31:14):
That's really long, go ahead.
>> Peter Berkowitz (31:16):
Four pages, and by the way, on a serious notice, and
now as we are talking amid the rapidrise of artificial intelligence,
college students now havethe capability of speaking a few lines.
Putting a few questions, andhaving artificial intelligence
(31:40):
churn out a seminar paper that couldpass muster in many classrooms.
In other words, we are losing a lost art,and you might say, well, good riddance.
We've lost rotary phones.
Many young people not knowwhat a rotary phone is.
They can watch movies from the 1960s.
(32:02):
In any case, I believe that stillto understand your rights and
responsibilities as a free citizen,
the art of reading booksis still highly valuable
to forming citizens in a free society.
(32:23):
So that means that we are engagedin a fight against the tides.
So be it.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (32:30):
Before we conclude, I wanna come back to patriotism
and the political difficulty of beingexplicit about it as an educational goal.
People often on the left, butnot entirely, accuse anyone that
says it of jingoism, of kind of a blind,unreasoning support for
(32:53):
somebody orsomething that they don't know much about.
But that they're being told theyhave to be in favor of kind of
an almost allergy to this positiveaffiliation with the country.
On grounds that that meansyou're affiliated with whoever
(33:14):
happens to be leadingthe country at the moment or
whoever happens to be agitatingthe country at the moment.
I think a lot of teachers in schools andmaybe in colleges,
they're probably two different problems.
But a lot of teachers in schools feellike they're being watched unless
they say something that mightindeed be accused of turning their
(33:38):
kids into jingoists or forthat matter, into anti-Americans.
Navigating that path is a very difficultchallenge for educators today.
Do you have any counsel on this problem?
Because it's a real one.
>> Peter Berkowitz (33:52):
It is a real one.
I feel it myself, and we should sayit's not just a problem of today.
This is what you're describing is reallya problem of education in a free society.
Because education in a free society isdirected at enabling students ultimately
to think for themselves, to make theirown judgments, to widen their view.
(34:18):
But you can't do any of that.
You can't judge responsiblyunless you know some basic facts,
unless you know what happened.
You can't judge responsibly.
You're not really thinking foryourself unless you're familiar with your
countries, as I said before, its greatachievements and its genuine failings.
(34:41):
You can't judge for yourself,you're not thinking freely.
You're chained by someoneelse's ideas unless
you've encountered a variety ofperspectives on your country.
And by the way, you can't think foryourself unless your teachers have
modeled for you what it is to listento a variety of perspectives.
(35:04):
So an informed patriotism, enlightenedpatriotism, is entirely proper.
It seems to me thatAbraham Lincoln was right.
The United States wasthe first country ever,
anywhere to be based on a universalprinciple, specifically universal
principle that proclaimed that all humanbeings are by nature free and equal.
(35:28):
It's also an agonizing factabout this country that
we did not adequatelyhonor that principle.
We betrayed that principle at the foundingbecause our country gave legal sanction to
the evil institution of slavery.
All this is part of liberal education.
And by the way, I should end here.
(35:51):
Again, it's not the job of a teacher.
It's not the job ofenlightened patriotism to be
celebrating the achievements ofthis president or that president.
It is the job of enlightenedpatriotism to understand
how America's fundamental principles and
basic constitutionalinstitutions have provided for
(36:16):
the citizens of this countrya freedom of religion.
Of speech, of press and petition and
assembly that has been matched by few,if any countries.
And that is a source of reason torespect America, to admire America, and
(36:36):
to be grateful America, andto try to make America better.
>> Chester E. Finn Jr. (36:42):
Wow, I can't think of a better introduction to
Civic Learning Week 2025.
So thank you very much, Peter Berkowitz.
It's great to be with you and I lookforward to seeing you again real soon.
>> Peter Berkowitz (36:54):
Thank you, Checker.
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