MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh #10 A Conversation About Place, Art & Cultural Capital with Amanprit Sandhu - MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh

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Sovay Berriman (00:15):
Dydh da ha dynnargh pub huni dhe bodkastow
MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh ostyesgenev, Sovay Berriman. Hello
and welcome everyone to theMESKLA | Brewyon Drudh podcasts,
hosted by me Sovay Berriman.MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh is a

(00:38):
multi platform project, usingsculpture making and
conversation to explorecontemporary Cornish cultural
identity. Through workshops,podcasts, a symposium, and an
exhibition. The project invitespeople to share their
experiences of identity andCornwall, and their views on

(00:59):
Cornish culture and itsrelationship to land, language,
heritage, tourism, the Cornishdiaspora, and much, much more.
These podcasts recordConversations with guests whose
research or lived experiencetouches on the project themes.

(01:19):
The views, thoughts and opinionsexpressed are the speaker's own.
All conversations are carriedout with a spirit of generosity
and openness, creating space forthe discussions to twist and
turn. And I'm very grateful toall who have taken part.
For this tenth and last in the2022 MESKLA podcast series I am

(01:45):
joined by Amanprit Sandhu.Amanprit is a London based
curator and educator with afocus on expanded exhibition
practices, pedagogy and wideningparticipation in the arts and
arts education, andcollaborative approaches to
working. She is currentlyworking as a Senior Lecturer on

(02:08):
the Fine Art programme atChelsea College of Arts, London.
We join the conversation with anAmanprit telling us a bit more
about her work and research.
Govenek a'm beus hwi dheomlowenhe goslowes orto. I hope
you enjoy listening.

Amanprit Sandhu (02:30):
Yeah, so I'm a curator and educator or I work
as a curator and educator. Ithink there's a difference. I'm
not just that. And I'm based inLondon. My kind of interests
over the last decade have beensupporting artists through
residencies commissioning. Andit's usually outside of the

(02:50):
context of galleries andmuseums. So I'm interested in
how audiences can connect to artin wider context, historically,
that's been in biennials. So Iworked on the 2010, Liverpool
Biennial, and that really formeda lot of my thinking. And I'll

(03:11):
come to that when I talk aboutplacemaking. And thinking
through ideas of culturalcapital, which is what I wanted
to focus in on with you whatdoes that mean when we look at
somewhere like Cornwall, and ifthat's even relevant in the time
that we're in. And over the lastfew years, I've become more

(03:31):
interested in public programmesand also residencies as a way of
supporting artistic practice.And also just alternative ways
in which audiences can thinkabout sort of making as well.
Yeah, and at the moment, I workas senior lecturer at the

(03:54):
Chelsea College of Art inLondon. And I've gone back to, I
guess, the more formal artschool because I was supporting
alternative programmes. And Iworked at somewhere called the
rising Art Centre in Cambridge,on something called syllabus,
which was an alternative to arteducation programmes and

(04:15):
universities. But what I waslearning was that the artists
that were coming through thesealternative programmes, had
graduated from art schools, orthey had done their bas or Ma's,
and they needed professionaldevelopment support, but what I
wasn't seeing was artists fromdifferent socio economic

(04:37):
backgrounds and my feeling wasactually sort of art school is
still a really important placeto attract those students that
do come from differentexperiences. And I, I was
committed at that point, whichwas a year and a half ago, and I
still am in ideas aroundwidening participation. Yep, so

(04:58):
that's a kind of pop Did historyof Yeah, where I'm at, but I'm,
I'm really excited by whatyou're doing. And I said to you,
I wanted to kind of grapple withthese terms placemaking and
cultural capital, partly becausethey feel like things that the
work I've been done has beeninfluenced by, but they're words

(05:20):
that are in the realm of, Iguess, kind of maybe bureaucracy
and, you know, planning design,they're quite off putting, but
they have somehow, like, in akind of unconscious way through
the process of osmosis, sofiltrated into my kind of

(05:41):
language. And I'm interested inthat. And like I said to you,
what, what does that mean, whenwe think about places like
Cornwall, and you sent me areally interesting text, which
focused on Canadian historiesand Indigenous histories, and
you asked me to look at it as away as a counteraction, or

(06:03):
maybe, you know, a way of sortof providing a different lens
into this. And it was, there wasone key word place thought, and
yeah, I don't know, this, theseare some of my tentative
thoughts.

And this, and that text, just to say, was sent
to me by Stephanie Pratt, who isa is also a guest within the
podcast, and we've hadconversations when I was forming
this project. Just to go back tosomething around those, like
those words, and that thingaround languages that these

(06:40):
terms like cultural capital,placemaking, of course, they,
they come into the language,they come into some people's
language, and then they'respoken by certain institutions
or by certain representatives,to other people who don't

(07:01):
necessarily know what they mean.I mean, I asked you to talk a
bit about placemaking. Because Ireally struggle with exactly
what that means. And I find itvery problematic term. If I just
as a term, if I just take thosetwo words placemaking put
together, I immediately feelreally resistant to them. Most,

(07:26):
I mean, that it feels likereally colonial terms. Really
catalyst. So I'm, yeah, so Iasked you to sort of think
around it a bit, as we spokeabout to kind of help to break
that down a bit as well. And redreef where this project is
centred, is having a lot of thislanguage kind of used about it.

(07:49):
Presently, yeah. So it feelsreally pertinent to consider it
in relation,

I think the first thing to say is, it's
something I'm thinking throughconstantly. And I think my
interpretation of it is throughthe experiences I've had,
through working with theLiverpool biennial two years on
from them becoming the EuropeanCapital of Culture. And it's
something I really do kind ofassociate with local government

(08:15):
or, you know, sort of townplanning, design and management.
And I think you're right inbeing kind of, I guess,
ambivalent, ambivalent towardsthe term because it does feel
political. And it is because itreally questions like the nature
of like place identity. And whatI mean by that is, you know,

(08:38):
places, I essentially believeplaces something more
intangible. And what placemakingis, is essentially thinking
about it in terms of planning,design management, and looking
at how sort of within thatcontext, how people have a set
of assets that can contribute toideas of what a place can be,

(09:03):
but it's starting from a very,you know, top down place, and
that doesn't, that doesn't meanthat, you know, community and
grassroots. Yeah, they can't bea community or grassroots
approach to placemaking. But Idon't think anyone would ever
call it that. So this idea ofplacemaking when I think about

(09:24):
it has been through or has orwhat I have, yeah, the way I see
it has been informed by how I'vebeen introduced to it, which has
been through working inorganisations that have been
involved in that work if theyknow it or not. So at the time,
I was working at the Liverpoolbiennial which was from 2011,

(09:46):
they had just delivered and hadbeen quite pivotal in getting
the European Capital of Culture.And when I started they had a
programme called urbanism, whichI thought was amazing. It was He
was speaking to all those thingsI was interested in. And I think
maybe it's important to talkabout my background, I'm a

(10:07):
second generation immigrant, orlike, or I am second generation,
my folks were first generationcame from the Punjab in India.
And I grew up in a place calledHanzo. In West London, which I
know, you know, because you'velived there, which is a very
upwardly mobile community,every, you know, decade, there's
a new community coming intohand. So. And I think I had a

(10:31):
very more, I had a very fluididea of what culture was because
it was always there, it wasnever framed, and it and I
didn't understand it throughlike, the prism of galleries or
museums, it was just somethingthat was always sort of present
in both like my family life, andhow young people presented

(10:52):
themselves at school for whatthey will be talking about what
they ate. So I think I've had avery kind of expanded idea of
what culture was, but what I wasaware of was I was very
interested in this thing calledart, but that they were kind of
barriers or there was a languageto, you know, how you spoke

(11:15):
about art. And I was learningthat through my kind of Pheidon
books, or Penguin Books I wasreading, I was like, Okay, I'll
just learn how to sort ofgrapple with this, and I can
enter this, enter this world.But through all of that, I knew,
for example, my mum doesn'tspeak English. And it's
something that she's nevercompletely got a grasp of, I

(11:37):
knew that there were barriers.And that was exacerbated when I
went to art school as well. Ican kind of talk a bit more
about this. But all of this wasto say, while I was on my own
journey, working out what sortof fine art meant to me and what
I needed from it. And you know,what I was interested in, I also
was aware that there was sort ofbarriers, and I was questioning

(11:59):
why sort of art was contained inthe white cube or galleries and
museums. So from very early on,partly from my own kind of
cultural experiences. From ayoung age, I was interested in
how art could filtrate outsideof the museum and gallery. And I
remember very clearly, theapplication I put in to get to

(12:20):
the Liverpool Biennial, becauseit was part of an MA was called
back in 10 minutes, and it waslooking at the high road in
Brent, Wembley, high road, andhow the shops that were being
closed down could be used assort of gallery spaces,
temporary gallery spaces, tothink through with the local

(12:43):
council, what was taking placein terms of the area changing.
And some of it was really naive.But even at that point, I was
thinking about what voice canlocal people have, and how art
can be involved in that. Andwhen I say say some of it was
quite naive, it was also sort ofcompletely feeding into ideas of

(13:03):
how like, you know, you'd kindof regenerate. But this is why I
was interested in the context ofthe Liverpool Biennial. And I
think very early on, you go to aplace and you just absorb
everything. And I think my ideasof placemaking were completely
connected to, okay, well, youjust bring art in, and then

(13:24):
something interesting willhappen. And I think what's
happened over the 10 yearspreceding that is that I've, you
know, I guess there's a politicsto all of that, and
understanding sort of where Istand. Again, that's, that
sounds really vague. But I thinkgoing back to this idea of place
identity, I feel kind of reallycritical now about that top down

(13:50):
approach. But I do feel like ifit's community driven and sort
of grassroots there is there isyou know, something interesting,
that can happen. And there havebeen projects that deliver Paul
biennial was involved in that,yeah, showed that I also went on
to work at the Folkestonetriennial, which again, was

(14:12):
bringing art to a place that hadbeen, in many ways kind of
neglected, but it was supportedand continues to be supported by
someone called Roger de Haan,who also, you know, comes from a
background of owning lots ofover 65, sort of, what do you

(14:32):
call them? I forgot I forgottenthe term but holiday homes. So
it was him and his family that,you know, meant that places like
Folkston became, I guess, kindof different, and not as
affluent because there was anattraction to have your holiday
home abroad. So I'm interestedin all those kinds of politics,

(14:56):
the hand that gives them thehand that takes away And again,
I know like Sovay, this is allquite, quite loose. But and I
guess the chat that I wantedwith you is, you know, thinking
about, you know how we canrethink placemaking because I do
feel like the work that I wasinvolved in, like commissioning

(15:18):
in public spaces, there is, youknow, lots of kind of facets to
that as well. There'sorganisations like future
cities, who have more of a, Iguess, almost like a corporate
approach to it, where they workwith developers, and their idea
of placemaking is slightlydifferent from other places that

(15:40):
are taking, you know, more of akind of community centred
approach. But I still feel likeit's, I wanted to flag it up,
because it made me think aboutyour project in red roof. And I
was like, What relevance? Doesit have? And what does it mean
to? Yeah, to normal, not normalpeople to people who are in

(16:03):
that, because I spoke to my dad,about placemaking. He's like, I
don't even understand what youmean, because he was like, it's
something that's always justhappening, you know, he was
like, everywhere is always influx. So this idea is kind of
connected to, you know, a biggeragenda. And it was just good to
kind of hear him kind of talk.From his perspective. Yeah,

it's, I think, some of what you say, really
shines through in that sense of,like, growing up in a place
where there was an art readilyavailable. Well, there was loads
in a way, but not like the artthat I'm involved in now. Not

(16:52):
the art that I experienced onceI went to art school. And I
suppose, being like, I felt whenI went to art school that Oh, my
goodness, this is amazing. It'slike the best experience and I,
I feel really validated, justwith almost everything I do.

(17:16):
feels okay here. And it waswondrous. And then I was really
excited about sort of doingthat. I was very lucky to have
done a degree at University ofEast London in plasto, where
they had a residency programmein the for the second and third
years of the degree, which youcould do instead of writing a

(17:40):
dissertation. And so I wasreally eager to do that, which
enabled me to sort of work in acity farm, much heat city farm
on the Isle of Dogs, and then myelected residency was in a dive
centre ensure amazing. Yeah. Butthen coming coming home, like I

(18:04):
always just wanted to make thatkind of artwork visible, I
suppose. Just on the street,just really accessible. But then
there is a link to org openingup those pathways to
gentrification and what youtouched upon about this thing

(18:26):
around working with the emptyshops in brand. So yeah, it
seems like a really good idea,doesn't it TAKE OVER THE SHOP
spaces? And then you think aboutare they this is like part of
paving that way and be cominginstrumentalized by a whole

(18:47):
other agenda. Tanya Lu ofcultivator and I put on a put
together a symposium in 2019,around gentrification and arts
relationship. And I think it'squite an uncomfortable relate,
you know, it's, it's full oftension, isn't it? How do we do

(19:08):
the things we want in the kindof place where we can perhaps
make it more visible in a liethese sort of very simple
interactions with art? Yeah, andI've always but at the same
time, not open those otherdoorway and I

think it's a constant grappling because I
think the last time when I wasreally grappling with this in a
kind of personal and sort ofreal way trying to understand my
edges and, you know, boundaries,or yeah, my politics around this
was when I was working with arton the underground and
specifically, I was fleshing outthe community engagement

(19:46):
programme for the Northern lineextension so the Northern line
runs north to south acrossLondon, ending in Morden, but
there were two new stations thatwere going to be extended from
Ken Kingston station to NineElms and Battersea. And my job
was to engage with the communityand get them ready for this

(20:08):
change. But what I was finding,and I was also fleshing out,
okay, what type of conversationscould we have in the run up to
that, and the three years kindof preceding the stations
opening? And there were somereally interesting artists who
wanted to talk about the moreuncomfortable side of the

(20:31):
conversation, which was thattheir local area, which had not
been connected, so, you know,transport is one way that also
supports gentrification, aswell. So an area which hadn't
kind of been connected, but is,you know, so close to central
London, and what were theeffects on local people in their

(20:54):
understanding of how, you know,their areas going to change and
community. And the response Ihad from Transport for London,
and ultimately underground isthat really, they didn't want
any of the artists that weresuggested that we're kind of
dealing more with giving thecommunity a voice, but they were

(21:17):
more interested in artists whowere celebratory about what was
going to happen. And, you know,I did deliver the first
commission. And, you know, to befair, there was a lot going on
at Transport for London, but itmade me feel quite uncomfortable
that we couldn't open up formore, I guess, kind of a more
complex conversation, it's okayto celebrate, but also, at the

(21:39):
same time, work with thecommunity to, I guess, give them
space to air their concerns, butit felt there was no room and I
had to leave that programme andleave my sort of work there.
Because it just felt quiteuncomfortable. And I just took
some time out and ended upworking at King's College and

(22:02):
their student services, becauseI was like, Okay, I don't quite
know where I am now with thiscommissioning, because I always
was excited about working on arton the underground. But what
what I've ended up working onjust feels quite problematic,
and I couldn't find a waythrough. But that said, you
know, they did end up workingwith the really interesting

(22:23):
artists who looked at the queercommunities and the historical
sort of communities that livedaround sort of voxel, a Nine
Elms. And so there was somethinggood that came out of it. But at
that time, I couldn't negotiatethat to take place. And it was
quite difficult. So I thinkpersonal agency in all these

(22:45):
projects has always been, yeah,difficult to negotiate. For me
as well, I did want to quicklygo back to ideas around
placemaking. Because I think,for me, I'm interested in
people, but where theplacemaking comes from it is
from, you know, planning anddesign, and, you know,
management. And I think Iforget, there's, you know, you

(23:09):
think about placemaking. Andit's equated to everything from
you know, the size of a pavementor, like planted area too. So, I
think I just wanted to flag thatI'm looking at all my
understanding of placemaking isvery, you know, people centred,

(23:29):
but it is more than that. So,you know, and I want to kind of
also flag I'm not an expert inplacemaking I just find the
terminology that in culturalcapital are quite, quite
interesting, because it's thingsthat, you know, I, I was
involved in, without sort ofknowing myself. And, yeah, so I

(23:51):
just wanted to flag that.

Ya know, and in thinking, then returning to
placemaking, how, what were yourresponses or thoughts in then
referencing like, place thought?

Yeah, I thought it was. I mean, it's a
completely different world view.So I forgotten and I, you can
tell me, like, who wrote thetext, and the name of a text
because I think it's importantto just

date Vanessa, what, okay.

So what I loved about place thought is that it's
completely kind of framed in adifferent kind of context and
worldview. And right from theoff they're talking about
because apologies and just to goback a bit or step back a bit.
This is a text which looks atindigenous culture and knowledge

(24:50):
in North America, Canada, and istalking about people's
relationship to land and I thinkit's a A couple of words came
into mind, it's a completelydifferent way of thinking about
ideas around kind of place.Because it's fluid, it's
interconnected, like, into beingfelt like a really important

(25:13):
word. Because throughout thewhole text, there's a
relationship with land, andpeople, which is almost
spiritual. So it just startsfrom a completely different
place. And when I talk aboutplacemaking, we're talking about
like, capital, we're talkingabout ideas of placemaking,

(25:34):
existing in a really differentway. And even, you know,
cultural capital. When I thinkabout that, you know, and when I
got to university, it wasunderstanding what I needed to
know, and how I needed topresent myself to move through
this world. And I always kind ofconnect cultural capital to
class, because that's, that'swhat it kind of meant to me at

(25:57):
that point. And I was like,Okay, so there's a set of codes,
and a way of being to enter thesomething that's maybe called
high culture, and I'll learnthat, and that will give me the
cultural capital to like, justsort of work and move in the
places that I want. And to startmaking sense again, or where I

(26:18):
want to exist in these like,worlds, or like the different
art worlds there are. But thattext is just taking just a
completely different approach,which, you know, is equated to
kind of more of an indigenousworldview and framework. So I
think in some ways, there's noteven any kind of comparison,

(26:42):
it's just so different. Andit's, you know, it's really
exciting, but it's reallydifficult to sort of look at
that, and then think about wherewe are, because it's a
completely different paradigm.And, and, you know, as a result,
and this, these are theproblematics that I kind of
flagged in the text, where theywere, they talk about language,

(27:04):
and how, like, the knowledgesystems that she's interested
and invested in, have been kindof seen as pre modern, or just
yeah, just like, from adifferent time, or even, I
guess, you know, not sort ofvalid at all, if you think about

(27:25):
Western thought. And I thinkanother key thing that I walked
away from how importantstorytelling was, and I was
thinking about that a lot interms of how cultural capital is
passed down. It's, it'ssomething that's really key in
South Asian culture as well,storytelling, and it's just

(27:47):
something I really wanted to askyou about that tradition in
Korea. Because that's, that's asort of an embodied knowledge
felt like it was reallyimportant in place thought as
well. So yes, starting from acompletely different place, I
felt so

um, and they'll be on the website, there's a
resources page, and the link tothe decolonization indigeneity
education, and societypublication is on on that
Resources page, so people canhave a look at Vanessa works,

(28:28):
text. And thank you to Steph forsharing it. Yeah. So sort of
storytelling and sense of placemy experience in Cornwall, and
is that I feel very much sort ofphysically part of this place.

(28:55):
So almost like a term I oftenuse is like granite at the core.
So the physicality of the placeswithin you and almost that your
body is, is suited to that land.And that's a sort of, well, I

(29:19):
don't know what the right wordwould be for it, but not not
dialect necessarily, but part ofthe sort of late like, very
local sort of Cornish parlancewould be around jokes around
being sort of squat and in aphysical form so that you can
get down the mines and don't getblown over by the winds. And

(29:43):
there's lots of legendstorytelling around like
knockers in the mines and thegiants that have helped to form
the landscape through theirarguments and disputes. Cornish
language, place names anddialect turn Some words that you
don't understand a dialect untilyou leave. So yes, there is that

(30:10):
sense of storytelling. Andthere, there's that sense of
being embodied knowing who youwere. However, what I've very
much been finding is that thatis slipping. And you know, that
there's less of that. And one ofthe mentioned that my interest

(30:33):
is in tourism to you. And one ofthe things is that, of course, I
mean, I'm not a specialist incapitalism, but it seems to me
that what capitalism does verywell is commodify, almost
anything it can get its handson. So they stories and tales
become commodified, sort ofcellophane wrapped, resold, and

(30:56):
they're not just resold to avisiting public who may want to
purchase them for a memory,they're also resold to the
inhabitants of this place. So itbecomes more difficult, there's
a bit more kind of work to dowithin our own sense of self.
Oh, is that is that history? Orthat story? The one that is

(31:20):
cellophane wrapped, or put on aBBC programme? Or is it the one
that I don't know, my grandma'stelling me or my uncle or that
fella down the pub or whatever.

And that's so interesting, because added to
that is every generation willhave, I guess, a different set
of urgencies. You know, thatforms their sense of kind of
self and place as well, both tothe land and in the world as
well. So that's Yeah, that'sreally interesting. And I don't

(31:54):
know if this is connected, butlast week, I was in Port Isaac.
And we had a few tours, becausewe just wanted to me and my
partner wanted to know a bitmore about the fishing history.
But so much of a narrative wasaround Doc Martin, which was
filmed in Port Isaac, it's quitecringy. But it has been a really

(32:19):
important part of Port Isaac'skind of revival. And it was
strange to us, because we'venever watched it. And it's also
brought in all the tourism andthe money. But it's, but it's
kind of, yeah, I mean, it's kindof older history, but it has
become a secondary. So I wasquite as quite interested in why

(32:41):
people were there. It is areally beautiful, picturesque
place. But I think what you saidabout that cellophane wrapped
history, and the kind of historythat's kind of known to the
locals as well. And that kind ofmerging was just on show in a
really interesting way. Becausethere were lots of there were

(33:02):
lots of community members weworked out, that had migrated
down from London, in the late80s, and the 90s, to that part
of the world. So they were partof like, you know, a new kind of
community coming into portIsaac, yet they were bemoaning
what was happening, which mademe think a lot about sort of,

(33:27):
you know, this thing that youhave to balance out, which is
places are always changing, andthey're in flux. And actually,
you know, it's part and parcelof how you know, and
historically people have movedaround. That's just what we do
as humans, how is that? How havewe kind of, you know, think of

(33:48):
that and sort of manage that orwhat happens when we kind of cry
back to sort of particular orbecome Celtic about a particular
era. But going back tostorytelling, you know, I feel
there's real agency and that'ssomething else that was present
in the text thinking aboutagency in place as well. Because

(34:10):
if I go back to the projectsthat I worked on, at the
Liverpool Biennial, then at theFolkston triennial, then art on
the underground, I would alwayssay that I was interested in the
context and what role art couldkind of play in these
conversations. But I thinkagain, you know, there was a

(34:33):
formula as to the way in whichwe work, so we always kind of
had quite strict parameters andthere was not a lot of space for
things to really, I guess, kindof shift or grow for us to have
really open dialogues and that'swhat has really made me kind of

(34:56):
rethink of some of my approachto commissioning and I'm really
Interested in durational, andlonger term sort of art projects
in places, I think those are theones that really kind of rethink
ideas around placemaking. Andthere's always an artist and a
project I go back to. So there'san artist called Rick Lowe, US

(35:18):
based artist who started upsomething called Project Row
Houses, and it was in Euston,Texas in the Third Ward, I
think, but I might have thatwrong. And he did do exactly
that, you know that there was asort of deprived area within his
neighbourhood. He wants you toprovide resources for the Afro

(35:42):
American community, of whom hewas part of. But this is like a
project that's 20, well, maybenot 20 years, but it's over a
decade old. And I think, if weare, the projects now that I'm
more interested in are the onesthat have a kind of long term
durational approach. And then Ithink we can really have

(36:05):
interesting conversations aroundplacemaking and art. Otherwise,
I do think that on the wholearts usually kind of utilised in
a particular way, or, you know,a particular formula. And that's
not all bad, because, you know,there are, I still do the work
because I think there areopportunities for artists to

(36:27):
learn. And I think that it'sstill important to have their
voice if there is going to bedevelopment. And there always
is, and there is likeregeneration, and there always
seems to be I think arts, thearts needs to be involved in
that 100%. But it definitelyshifted my approach. And I think
that's quite key for me nowthinking about more long term

(36:48):
durational approaches, andembeddings through longer term
projects with the community. AndI think, you know, examples
like, Heart of Glass, which isbased in the north of England,
their work is really interestingand community focused, they do
work with artists, but it's,it's not an organisation that's

(37:13):
on the radar of many peopleunless you're kind of committed
to socially engaged work orsocial practice and the arts.
And then there's also anorganisation called Super Slow
Way, which is directed by LauriePeake. And again, just has a
kind of more nuanced andinteresting way of thinking

(37:35):
about arts role in like a place.Yeah, and I think they're
important. So like, but I justdon't think we're there in terms
of, I love these texts that Iread that you shared, so V, but
really talking about acompletely different paradigm,
and a way of connecting to kindof land and your example of, you

(37:57):
know, talking about graphite,ground granite, not graphite.
But this, I really isn't solid,sturdy, you know, kind of
material, it's just, we're notthere, that's all, you know, and
I just just feel like we'retalking about a complete kind of

(38:19):
shift in my thinking. And I'dlove to see that and we need
kind of voices, but I feelthere's a huge kind of gap
between thinking about thesethings in the realm of kind of
maybe theory or thought ordiscourse, and then what's
happening and what we're seeing,but that's why projects like
yours are so important, becausesometimes the work needs to be

(38:41):
kind of slow, quiet. And yeah,and not have an agenda. And I'd
have to say placemaking, as I'veexperienced it for the projects
I worked on, always had anagenda, and it was connected to
regeneration within that kindof, you know, model of progress.

So perhaps through Yeah, these slower, more
kind of durational activities,but it's I think, like, I can't
help but connect that to theCornish term direct, okay.
Anyway, which is like directlyas it will happen, kind of when
it happens, you know, which isoften interpreted as being slow.

(39:27):
And I mean, just slow in a in anegative sense. Like slow slash
dumb, but it's kind of justabout pace and taking things
with their pace with the pacethat they require. So
potentially this place thoughtthis different sensitivity to

(39:51):
place could evolve. If there wasperhaps a will or an agenda to
Do that to encourage thatapproach? I mean, do you think
that there's the potential

for that? There's a, you know, it's a
philosophical way of seeing theworld and kind of being
essentially. And I think there'stwo things there. It's the will
of like, the artists and acommunity to want to do that.
And then there's the funding. SoI think I can't separate sort of
why why sort of we work in theseparticular formulaic ways, why

(40:29):
arts organisations are kind oforganised in the way they are.
And it's very much connected tofunding and why you know why we
kind of work on a particularproject, then you report on it,
it's all kind of related tofunding. So I think there's two
things that are, are needed,there's a kind of well, and a

(40:51):
sort of way, which is reallymaybe kind of idealistic way of
kind of being and and aphilosophical way of being in
the world, which needs to bekind of separated from that. And
then there's the practicalities,that the reason why we're not
seeing that is because fundinghas been kind of set up in a
different way. But that, thatmeans there's potential because

(41:14):
within you know, the communitiesthe resource, and what can you
how can you kind of set thingsup differently, where you kind
of foreground that, I don'tknow, I think I don't want to, I
don't want to get into aconversation about arts funding,
because it'd be so boring tolisten to. So I'm gonna, I'm
going to tear away, but I thinkI love what you're saying. But

(41:35):
there's a reason why we've allfallen into the ways of working,
you know, and in the realm ofplacemaking, it's because of
particular policies that arebeing adhered to and pushed from
local and, you know, centralgovernment. And in terms of arts
organisations, and why we fallinto particular patterns of

(41:56):
programming and working, it isconnected to funding, and how to
get ahold of funding. Butthere's something separate to
that which, which is embodied inthat place, thought, yeah, text,
which is a different kind ofspace. But I'm, you know, I'm
still thinking, Well, how doyou, how do you kind of bring

(42:20):
those together? Or how can welearn from that and bring that
into what we're, I guess, kindof working on as individuals as
well.

And it feels as though I mean, I've been
knocking about making art for acouple of decades now. And I
feel as though there have been ahost of projects and artworks
and shows that have looked atthat different kind of pace,
that have tried to explore, forinstance, like development that

(42:54):
makes space for weeds coming upthrough, you know, cracks in
paving stones. And it feels asthough that with finally, more
natives being taken of climateemergency, that there's a
greater potential for that kindof, don't know, like rewild

(43:22):
through a through arts activity,and perhaps rewilding of an
aspect of the art world. I mean,to to gain traction,

I think I think that's really interesting,
because it makes me think abouturgency, and what's at stake.
And I feel what you've said, isreally kind of important,
because there are definitelycyclical conversations, and
ideas or kind of discoursethat's returned to in the arts,

(43:58):
and it feels cyclical, becausenothing really shifts. It almost
feels like sports, you havethese conversations, and just
having them is enough, and it'sonly when something's really at
stake, may that be kind ofpersonal or collective agency,
or, you know, something wider ona kind of global scale, like

(44:19):
climate change, is that yeah,things things are kind of really
going to shift, which I thinkthere is a possibility because
all of us won't necessarily beable to kind of do things the
way that we have done. Andagain, it's a shame that it has
to you know, be I was speakingto my mum about this because we

(44:41):
were talking about like, you seerain from a distance and you
start preparing, or it's just,you know, kind of upon you and
you're kind of running away fromit, or it's sort of falling on
you and I feel like that's beenour approach to climate change
that it's You know, it's onlynow when it's falling on us

(45:03):
which in a kind of very abstractway, I think like because of the
way we've kind of set upsociety, we're so committed to
like the capitalist model, thatthere's no way that political
leaders can think in any otherkind of way. And I'm saying
this, because it feels verymacro micro, but it is linked to

(45:23):
how arts organisations are kindof organised as well, it's only
until like resources are goingto be taken away, or things are
really at stake that things aregoing to move for the art
sector, which feels kind of, youknow, sort of happening, and
maybe kind of more imaginativethought will take place. And

(45:45):
then on a personal level, thatidea of agency again, in that
text is entwined to ideas ofplay. So this idea that you're
so connected to place, what youdo is going to have a real kind
of knock on effect on, you know,your kind of land, you're it's
just a completely different wayof thinking about those

(46:05):
relationships. And that's whyplacemaking, you know, is really
interesting, because that'swhere I started thinking about
these things, but I was taughtsomething, but in early, how I
was kind of introduced toculture and ideas of place was
completely the opposite and morein in line with like place

(46:26):
thought, as described in thattext. I'm rambling a bit now,
but I sound like it's allconnected. But I'm interested
in. I know, it's, you know, youbring guests on, and we talk
about sort of the things thatwe're interested in, but I, I
just, I wonder like, how yourthoughts on this are shifting,

(46:50):
as you're working on on theproject, and what's important to
you, because, you know, some ofthis just feels so like,
irrelevant. I was thinking aboutmy approach to how I teach young
people. And yes, there's a setof skills, absolutely 100% that
I've, I'm, you know, it'simportant to pass on to the

(47:11):
students, and it's about ways oflooking ways of seeing
supporting them to navigate, youknow, the world that they're
potentially going to kind ofenter, but I also have this
philosophy, which is where Imeet them where they are. And
it's really simple and basic,which is that, you know, their,
their life experiences, theircultural touchstones are the

(47:34):
starting point, and then I workto kind of build and build and
support that as opposed to,yeah, you know, telling them
what they should they kind ofshould know. And, you know, the
histories they should be awareof which are taught, but it's a
different approach. And I justwondered, yeah, like your

(47:56):
approach to what you're doing,and what's shifting and changing
in importance.

Um, well, I think I mean, a thing that I've
become aware of is still, itfeels to me that there's
conversation around, yes,placemaking that is still
connected. And in fact, I heardsomeone use this term just

(48:25):
recently about a development orlocal arts development that was
around the ambition for socialmobility or creating paths for
social mobility. And, again,that's another term that I find,
like, really, concerning. AndI'm not, I'm not keen on. And it

(48:51):
so one of the things, it's avery, like, in a way, the
beginnings of projects are quitepersonal. Like, it's really
connected to my personal griefaround loss of culture, imminent
death of culture. But it's whatI see more and more as well as

(49:22):
are things like this isconnected to other works, that
I've made that around looking atwhere power lies, the pace of
things making space fortransition at the the in the way
that people need transition totake place. I thought that was
interesting what you're sayingabout the commissioned artworks

(49:43):
with the extension of theNorthern line. You know, people
need time very often, like we'reorganic beings. And we need time
to process things in a veryphysical sense very often, like
allow our bodies to catch up towhere our minds are or

(50:03):
something. So, I, I would saythat it's probably taken me this
point in my life, I'm now 50, tofeel confident enough to make a
work that is about somethingthat is so you know very overtly

(50:27):
about something that is veryimportant to me and is about to
an extent claiming a space. Andthere's something in that that
connects to what you werespeaking about earlier to do
with cultural capital, as well,and how we live within the very
particular society, and momentthat we live in, in Britain. And

(50:52):
then our, of course, our ownindividual backgrounds, and
thinking about how we can shiftto meet our own ambitions. And
yet also consider what hasgroomed those ambitions. How
we're, as a very young person, Ireally believed in meritocracy,

(51:17):
you know, I really believed orworked hard and at school,
things get improved.

Yeah, well, that's, you know, it's, that's
completely part of not so much,maybe now, but that was part of
my parents, you know, theimmigrant kind of, sort of
mentality, they were invested inmeritocracy, because there was a
real kind of belief that wouldsort of shift your, you know,

(51:47):
social status, depending on sortof, you know, where you were,
when you immigrated, but Ididn't completely see cultural
capital related to ideas ofclass and social mobility, as
well. And that's Yeah, it'sreally interesting for you to
kind of talk about it. Likethat.

And also just very much I was thinking, I
mean, like with any projects, aswell, that are about engaging
with people, asking people toshare something, and to be
interested in what you're doing.Like, I've long felt like, I
don't see why anyone should beinterested in art, and yet,

(52:29):
they're constantly these agendasaround, you know, expanding
audiences, and, you know, whyshould those audiences be
interested in coming to an artspace or engaging with an art
conversation? And yet, then, ofcourse, I'm an artist, really

(52:52):
wanting to find out people'sviews and experiences about
about Cornish cultural identity.And it's really hard to engage
people in those conversations,and I've had to really challenge
myself and go into, like, out ofmy comfort zones from being it's

(53:15):
really nerve racking, you know,not just making work on your own
in the studio.

And I can't help but think like, you know,
you're doing it. It's such aparticular moment. And what I
mean by that, I know, we kind oftouched upon it when we
initially spoke about what wemight focus on. And, you know,
it's, it's particular to theBrexit moment, because I know
this sounds really strange, youknow, I've been going to
Cornwall on holiday for over twodecades. But it was only

(53:49):
Cornwall, oni came up in my kindof, I guess, kind of a more of a
kind of, sort of my kind ofconsciousness when in the run up
to and Brexit because it wasbeing affected at all, like, you
know, it's communities were in adifferent way to other parts of,
you know, the UK. And I thinkit's really interesting.

(54:13):
Thinking about Yeah, Cornishidentity now in this political,
you know, particular moment.And, yeah, in the context of
that,

definitely. It's, yeah, I think it's not but
yeah, because I am Cornish, andI've never, never questioned
that. It just is a fact of me. Ifeel like I'm in a good position
to be able to use it. Yeah, andI think the now you know, there

(54:49):
are particular times whenthere's a sense of
responsibility to make use ofwhat one has to perhaps
influence a conversation orinfluence change or at least
influence a moment to have thatconversation to pay attention to
something.

Yeah, but Sovay, that makes me think there
you know. So you know, goingback to kind of placemaking in
the way that we work you as anartist me as a, you know,
curator and now educator, thereis like, responsibilities, you
know, so you're doing thisproject yes, it's you know, it's
come from a personal place. Andof course, there's going to be,

(55:30):
you know, a personal processthat you're going through, which
is going to be really enriching.But you know, through for all of
this there feels like there's asense of responsibility as well.
And I feel, I feel that's beenkind of maybe that's what we
have in common, because the moreI've done this type of work,
working outside of galleries andmuseums, and it's a lot easier
because it's, you know, it's acontained space of like, there's

(55:53):
variables, but those variablesare known. And as soon as you
start working with kind ofcommunities, there's a different
sense set of ethics that youhave to think about, which have
always been important to me, butthere's a different sense of
responsibility and understandingyour kind of role in, you know,
personal relationships, powerdynamics, and yeah, at its best,

(56:17):
we can use our cultural capitalto do that in a sensitive way.
But it's always something I'mvery aware of.

And so when you, when you look back on, kind of
that work with biennials thatare very invested in or
certainly were at points intheir lifetimes, invested in
sort of being broken up andspreading out into the community

(56:46):
and place, you know, being indifferent places and being open
and and I guess, opening upthose cities and places to
visiting publics. How do youfeel about them? Now, looking
back through your sort of lensof 2022?

Yeah, I think it really Yeah, a good question.
I think, you know, a lot of thatwork was still valid, I was
thinking about, Two up Two Down,which was a project where young
people and communities fromAnfield and Everton were

(57:29):
involved in the regeneration ofa street which was made up of
two up to down houses that wereall boarded up. And they knew
that some form of regenerationwas coming. And they were going
to be involved. It was all aboutmaking the communities involved

(57:49):
and having a say, and it wasdone really well and sensitively
and my contribution for that wasjust working with the funding
team to get some funding, I wasstill learning about all this
work. And it you know, it feedsinto all the things that we've
been talking about, just interms of where's the power in

(58:10):
those relationships? Who decidedwhen that project was going to
close? You know, what, whatskills are the young people
being given? Were they beinginstrumentalized in, you know,
an art projects, which was ofits time. But that, all of that

(58:31):
said, I just, I feel like what Iliked about it was that the
biennial was invested in thelearning, and I guess, like the
trouble that might have kind ofcome with that project as well.
I know that sounds strange, butI kind of like using, you know,
Donna Haraway, staying withstaying over trouble, you know,

(58:54):
and the fact that they kind ofknew it was a very different way
of working for them. So I stilllook back at two up to down
which is really of its time. Butalso like a bit of a prelude to
how places like create, which isan organisation based in London,
who also you us kind of art tothink about how you empower

(59:16):
communities to think about theirculture and, you know, ideas of
place. That's yeah, so it stillfeels important, but of its
time, you know, that work kindof needed to be done to them
sort of help are kind ofthinking of what works and what
doesn't, I don't know wherethose young people have gone to,

(59:38):
but they were being they will beworking with architects to gain
real skills. So you know, thatthere's all those types of art
projects working where thecommunities are given real
skills and we can be reallyYeah, you can find that really
problematic as well. So some ofit Yeah, I need more time to

(59:59):
unpack and about, but I thinkthat's a good example because I
was 100% behind it. And Ithought it was amazing that they
were taking sort of art out ofthe centre of the city and
thinking, Well, what can we do?You know, we know, these areas
are changing, let's have aconversation, and let's bring
the communities with us and justhow consultation took place.

(01:00:23):
There was a bakery that was setup in the centre of a community,
it was just sensitively done,and even now, you know, things
shift and change, and so doesdiscourse and practice. I think
it would be done differently forthat period. Yeah, it was
important work.

Sovay Berriman (01:00:45):
And there seems to be a time right now that
there's generally a lot moreattention paid to that kind of
work as well. Like it feels likethat's more for artists and
perhaps for emerging artists orstudents leaving college like

(01:01:05):
there's more access to makingthat kind of work or talking
about that kind of work andthinking about just because
we're sort of coming to timeleading on from that, could you?
How do we, because I often talkabout my practice is like

(01:01:28):
expanded sculpture, that it'svery much sits within a
sculptural sensibility around, Idon't know, the physicality of
it, or how I map it. But I canfind it quite also, sometimes
myself, I think, How can Ipossibly hold this together as
like one artwork? Look at allthese different aspects of it?

(01:01:52):
How do you sort of manage thatin terms of how you think, or
perhaps talk about work likethat?

Amanprit Sandhu (01:02:03):
Yeah, I think it depends who you're talking
to. That's a skill that you kindof, sort of learn as a curator,
right? You, you're working as aconduit, interpreter, into
locker, all these kinds ofwords, but it's about the
audience I'm talking to, and howI have to frame something. So to

(01:02:24):
myself in terms of what I'mdoing, it's all kind of
interconnected. And again, goingback to that text that you asked
me to read, which is amazing,you know, it's more like an
ecosystem, or a cosmology, ofthoughts, ideas, they're
connected, you know, they'reinterconnected, and one relies
on the other, I'm not going toexplain that to to everyone,

(01:02:47):
because it's not going to makesense. And then I'll use the
language of like, you know, thekind of world that we exist
into, if I'm talking to funders,or like, communities. And I
think language becomes quiteimportant in that, because some

(01:03:08):
of some of what you were sayingexpanded sculpture, it means
nothing. Yeah, next doorneighbour, they're like, Oh,
that's nice. But if you let'stalk about it in different ways,
you know, I like thinking aboutmaterials, and how they kind of,
you know, have like, a kind ofphysical resonance, but a
spiritual one is psychic one.And, you know, I like talking to

(01:03:30):
people about that, you know, andI want to start conversations,
because I think that has value.So I, that's my approach, I, in
a way, it's about putting ondifferent hats, when you're kind
of explaining these things. Andsome of you know, I love
curatorial discourse and rigourand conversation, but I know

(01:03:53):
that that might that's for acertain kind of audience or
peers, and then there's adifferent conversation I'm going
to have, so it's aboutrelevance. And I don't know if
that's what you're asking. Sorealise we're always going to
get ourselves in not, and Ithink some sometimes, you know,
it's yeah, it's not, it's notkind of irrelevant, unless, you

(01:04:15):
know, we're talking aboutquestions of kind of value.
Because, you know, are weequating what we're doing? Do we
have to explain it to kind ofprove it has value and I'm not
kind of interested in thatbecause I feel essentially, you
know, we're creative beings andthat, you know, culture is how

(01:04:37):
we talk about how we haveexisted in in the world and
that's why, you know, fordifferent civilizations, there's
been culture and likecreativity. So, does that sound
really cheesy?

No, I was just thinking about I suppose I was
just thinking about those terms.And the again, the kind of where
the edges and boundaries are ofa term like cultural capital
placemaking or expandedsculpture? And then yes,
actually that, like, throughthat Vanessa Watts text, you

(01:05:13):
know, that nation of placethought or that thinking being
that is, is something that ismuch more around. Yeah, giving
space and time and perhaps lotsmore words. Yeah. And maybe a

(01:05:35):
sit down with a cup of tea andbiscuits talk about like, Okay,
well, this is how we can get ourheads around. What what that
artwork is, or what that thatsort of plan is ambition is or,
you know, just just that thatwhole sort of, it's about

(01:05:55):
perhaps, perhaps brevity andefficiency, in in the
terminology isn't the mostaccessible?

No, I'm, I like what you're doing also, because
you're connecting those thingsthat we've been discussing, and
I always, I, you know, I wantedto bring those words placemaking
and cultural capital to thisconversation, just to think
through it in terms of whatrelevance it's kind of had
working as a kind of curator,you know, personally, what it's

(01:06:26):
meant. And then you think aboutthe text and place thought, you
know, it's, it's kind of, Iguess, kind of encapsulating and
encompassing and occupying avery different, you know, I'd
say psychic space, which I saidbefore, you know, is, is calling

(01:06:47):
for a different type of paradigmand a way of seeing the world
and being in the world. But Ithink you're completely right,
you can bring a methodology intowhat we're already doing. And I
do think that's about duration.And I know slow, even slowness
feels so cheesy, but it's stillrelevant and important. Yeah, so

(01:07:12):
I feel those things is very kindof relevant. And I always go
back to it as well. And alsoseeing people as a resource, and
not in a kind of capitalist kindof what can we extract, but, you
know, each other arestorytellers. You know, there's
kind of knowledge there, there'sembodied knowledge there. And

(01:07:34):
it's our role as artists andcurators. So if we bring
communities into projects, sortof working out how we support
that to happen in an organic andrespectful way that's useful for
them and not just useful for us,you know, creating art projects

(01:07:54):
or working on things. Yeah,

definitely. I totally agree. Thank you so
much. I'm in for it. Really,thank

you. I feel like I've been Yeah, waffling
on, but that's what vited Me todo. I love it.

I invite meandering conversation. And
that's exactly what's happened.What happens in the rubbish
sculpture and conversationworkshops. We met on meander,
meander around rubbishsculptures and conversation at
the same time. So yeah, I findthese spaces really fruitful and

(01:08:32):
enjoyable.

Yeah. Just very quickly, it made me think so
I've been thinking a lot aboutdeep listening. And and when I
was in Banff, in 2015, I went toa few talks led by the
indigenous leadership programme,and I entered the room and there

(01:08:54):
was just silence. And then therewas a bit of talking for five
minutes. And I'm like, Oh, what,what's happening here, I'm
really confused. And I just justsuch a different mode of kind of
meandering, listening, being andjust understanding how how to
kind of just be together and I,you know, I read and sometimes I

(01:09:16):
talk to extrapolate and share asquickly as I can. But I don't
know if I'm ever listening. Andit really has supported me. So
this is a research interest ofmine. And I'm trying to embody
it as well like deep listening.So when you're talking about
meandering, it's so importantbecause I think there's a it's a

(01:09:36):
closer to stillness that you canlet your kind of body your
thoughts just wander a bit,which is important. But thank
you Sovay

thank you so much. Real pleasure.

Yeah, thank you. And thank you for listening

Meur ras, a’gas goslowes, thank you for
listening. Further episodes ofthe MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh
podcast can be find on mywebsite Sovay berriman.co.uk.
That's sovayberriman.co.uk Whereyou also find guest's

(01:10:33):
biographies and a resource pageof links to further reading on
the topics discussed. If youfeel inspired to join the MESKLA
conversation about contemporaryCornish cultural identity,
please get in touch with meSovay Berriman. via my website
or social media, you'll findMESKLA | Brewyon Drudh on

(01:10:54):
Facebook, Instagram, andTwitter. The MESKLA | Brewyon
Drudh podcast and project hasbeen made possible due to a
wealth of in-kind help andsupport for many parties,
including the Lowender Peranfestival. Gorsedh Kernow,

(01:11:15):
Cornwall Council's Cornishlanguage office, Kowethas an
yeth Kernewek, CornwallNeighbourhoods for Change and
Falmouth University FalmouthCampus. The project has been
supported using public fundingby the National Lottery through
Arts Council England, andfurther funding has been

(01:11:36):
gratefully received fromHistoric England by Redruth
Unlimited. Meur ras dhywgha'gas termyn, agas gweles. Thank
you for your time. See youlater.

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MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh #10 A Conversation About Place, Art & Cultural Capital with Amanprit Sandhu

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