MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh #4 A Conversation about Language, Land & Fractured Culture

In this fourth podcast I am joined by Dr Stephanie Pratt - Dakota and Anglo-American Art Historian, and Jowdy Davey - Director of Lowender Peran Festival.  Steph and Jowdy both share aspects of their research which covers intangible cultural heritage and representation of indigenous peoples through colonial gaze. Through our conversation we explore fracturing and healing of cultures, the importance of language, remembering that we too are ancestors, and relearning relationships with land and cultural identity.

 

Stephanie is a member of the Dakota Nation, and became the first Cultural Ambassador for her Tribal Council at the Crow Creek Dakota Reservation in South Dakota, USA in 2015. 

 

She is a member of the Grandmother’s Society based at Fort Thompson, South Dakota, which promotes the understanding and preservation of Dakota and Lakota culture and language. Her book, American Indians in British Art, 1700-1840 was the first study of its kind. Currently, she is at work on a second book which will examine how Native North Americans made images of those who came to their lands and how those newcomers imaged Native North Americans in turn.

 

Jowdy is a Director of Lowender Peran, with a young family dominated by powerful females growing up to understand and celebrate their own dual Breton/Cornish heritage. Jowdy has recently led the commission of an exercise mapping Cornwall’s intangible cultural heritage, identifying where support is needed for traditions, and most importantly the communities that bear them, to thrive.

 

MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh (tr. Mussel Gathering | Precious Fragments) is a multi-platform project using sculpture-making and conversation to explore contemporary Cornish cultural identity. To find out more please visit www.sovayberriman.co.uk/MESKLA-Brewyon-Drudh. Through workshops, podcasts, a symposium and an exhibition the project invites people to share their experiences of identity and Cornwall, and their views on Cornish culture and its relationship to land, language, heritage, tourism, the Cornish diaspora and much more. 

 

These podcasts record conversations between me, Sovay Berriman, and guests whose research or lived experienced touches on the project themes. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker’s own. All conversations are carried out with a spirit of generosity and openness, creating space for the discussions to twist and turn.

 

Govenek a'm beus hwi dhe omlowenhe goslowes orto/ I hope you enjoy listening  

 

Please note: These podcasts were recorded in different locations and with a range of equipment. As such the sound quality varies and at times external factors are more present than ideal in the recordings.   Resources: For a full list of resources and references for the project please visit https://sovayberriman.co.uk/MESKLA-Resources  

 

https://milkweed.org/book/braiding-sweetgrass https://marlenamyl.es/public-art/ https://jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.php/des/issue/archive https://jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.php/des/article/view/19145 https://www.mayflower400uk.org https://www.plymouth.gov.uk/newsroomtags/mayflower400 https://northstarstudygroup.org.uk https://stillmoving.org/projects/speedwell-no-new-worlds
All conversations are carriedout with a spirit of generosity
and openness, creating space forthe discussions to twist and
turn. And I'm very grateful toall who have taken part.

(01:40):
In this fourth podcast I amjoined by Dr Stephanie Pratt -
Dakota and Anglo-American ArtHistorian, and Jowdy Davey - a
Cornish cultural worker, dancerand musician. Stephanie is a
member of the Dakota Nation, andbecame the first Cultural
Ambassador for her TribalCouncil at the Crow Creek Dakota

(02:03):
Reservation in South Dakota, USAin 2015. She is a member of
the Grandmother’s Society basedat Fort Thompson, South Dakota,
which promotes the understandingand preservation of Dakota and
Lakota culture and language. Herbook, American Indians in
British Art, 1700-1840 was thefirst study of its kind.

(02:27):
Currently, she is at work on asecond book which will examine
how Native North Americans madeimages of those who came to
their lands and how thosenewcomers imaged Native North
Americans in turn. Jowdy is aDirector of Lowender Peran, with
a young family dominated bypowerful females growing up to

(02:50):
understand and celebrate theirown dual Breton/Cornish
heritage. Jowdy has recently ledthe commission of an exercise
mapping Cornwall’s intangiblecultural heritage, identifying
where support is needed fortraditions, and most importantly
the communities that bear them,to thrive.

(03:10):
Dyth da, and welcome to JowdyDavey and Dr. Stephanie Pratt.
Thank you both so much meur rasfor joining me here for a
another MESKLA podcast. If youwould like to introduce

(03:31):
yourselves briefly for ourlisteners, that'd be wonderful.
Steph, would you

Stephanie Pratt (03:37):
Aha, pet through wash day. Image Sharpie
washi to Stephanie prep, hemight show up at Dakota yolk be
we meet our cantilena caught ithunt the one ahead much. Chunk
they wash dates, huge RP. I wantto thank all all of you here and

(03:59):
thanks Sovay And God and thoseinvolved with MESKLA for
inviting me to take part today.Welcome.

Jowdy Davey (04:09):
Okay, dydh da Jowdy ov vy de Wolf is Resrudh in
Kernow. I'm dowdy from Redruthin Cornwall and I as director of
the Lowender Peran

Sovay Berriman (04:20):
festival. Could you tell us briefly what
Lowender Peran is Jowdy?

Jowdy Davey (04:26):
Yep. So we're an organisation which celebrates
Cornish culture promotes Cornishculture and its Celtic
connections specifically. Sothese international links

Sovay Berriman (04:40):
and Steph you're working on a book currently,
aren't you?

Stephanie Pratt (04:46):
Yes, I in collaboration with a co author,
an anthropologist, Dr. MaxCarocci, and we're going to be
looking at Native Americancounters. In other words, images
made when indigenous people inNorth America encountered
newcomers, and what thenewcomers made of the native

(05:09):
people they saw. So it's a bookthat looks both ways from the
through the encounter. And itjust wanted to say I'm from the
Dakota nation. And I was fromband one and six of the Cheti.
Chaka we that's the bigger groupof people that are that Dakota
Lakota Nakota. Peoples. Sothat's, that's my, that's where

(05:29):
I come from my ancestry on myfather's side.

Sovay Berriman (05:33):
Thank you both for joining me, we I've spoken
with both of you about culturalidentity and land and the what
I'd framed as fracturedcultures. And when I started
talking about that, I wasn'tsure if others identified with

(05:53):
with that sort of phrase. Andthen, through the projects in
Plymouth, the Mayflower 400project, I was able to be
introduced to Steph, and itseemed very apparent to me that
some of what you were speakingabout there was connected to
this notion of fracturedcoaches, and coaches that are

(06:18):
fractured by others.

Stephanie Pratt (06:21):
Yes, I, I think, do you want me to sort of
go into that, or?

Sovay Berriman (06:27):
Okay, yeah, that would be wonderful.

Stephanie Pratt (06:30):
Well, I think that this idea came through
discussions with elders in mycommunity. And that the, the
understanding that when invasionhappened and the invader people
came to North America, that thisset a sort of chain reaction
event among all the peoples thatcaused disruptions, dislocation,

(06:55):
Dias Bora, and so even from thevery beginning, through contact
with others, and their diseasesand other disruptions, the
imbalances of power, thiscreated what you could call a
fracture zone. Some historianshave talked about this, that

(07:16):
kind of contact zone wherethings were not as they were
before, so in pieces, and thatthose left, we're putting those
pieces back together even asearly as this 17th century. And
the the things that werehappening on the ground in North

(07:36):
America. So that's my sort ofhistorical understanding of it.

Sovay Berriman (07:45):
And it seems that, well, something about
perhaps putting pieces togetheris that then that opens up
potential for overlaps and gaps,where I think about a sort of
broken piece of crockery. Andthere might be a small aspect

(08:06):
that can't be found, and ismaybe fine. And kind of glued
back in.

Stephanie Pratt (08:14):
Yeah, I think that there were enough memories
and enough continuity over,let's say, the last 300 years,
that have allowed many peoplesto reclaim and to reassert their
indigenous sovereignties theirIndigenous histories and
memories. And this isparticularly important in the

(08:38):
political climate of NorthAmerica, US United States,
because you have to establishyour net, your nation's presence
in a certain area. So for someof the East Coast peoples, this
was a real debate, and they hadto fight for their, what you
call federal recognition of theof their tribes. And this is

(08:59):
still going on even today thethe fight for indigenous
recognition.

Sovay Berriman (09:07):
I wanted to ask you about the thinking about the
book that you're writing andthis representation of an other
within sort of arts andliterature, painting and
drawing, and how that candislocate somebody from their

(09:29):
own culture and dislocate futuregenerations for knowing culture
and history. Could you say anymore about that step?

Stephanie Pratt (09:40):
I think in the case of my research, that there
was an early conception of whothe indigenous Americans were,
and this came partly from sortof a what do you call it?
Thinking before in other words,already European mentality, if

(10:02):
you like was was forming aroundwhat is Europe? So already
before Columbus sailed andothers, there was a concept who
are Europeans. And so they'reforming that at the same time as
they're contacting people thatthey now want to see as other.
And and so I think they thenconstruct what they were already

(10:24):
looking for. So here are peoplethat have darker hair, they have
a little darker skin. They arelook unclothed to a renaissance
European because they have noneof the fabulous hierarchical
dressing that say an Elizabethancourt would, would understand.
So they're naked, according tothe way they were described and

(10:48):
living differently. And ofcourse, there were so many
legends about the people to thewest of Europe, there were all
these legends in Europeanhistory, even going back, you
know, very, very old legendsabout St. Brendan's aisle and
all kinds of fantastic things.So they were looking for this.
So I think what's overlaid on tothe American Indian people are

(11:12):
this kind of fantastical, peoplethat live forever, people that
have free sex people that don'thave a church. And even by the
time of Montesquieu, they'resaying, sounds loss and squaw.
And I can't remember the lastone, meaning without laws

(11:32):
without customs. withoutreligion, these people were just
literally this kind of essentialhuman being. So this leads into
this fantastical, structuredimage of who the American Indian
people are. And then, lookingthe other way, when native

(11:53):
persons saw the first fewEuropeans, the ships were very
different. Their clothes werevery different. And one of the
first symbols that my peoplethat ACOTA, adopted fought to
stand for European people was ahat image. So that hat with a
brim often appears on what theycall winter accounts, which are

(12:16):
these histories of the Dakotapeople. And they have the date
when the first trader was seen,and to symbolise that they use
this hat. So that's what theysaw as different, and sort of
that encapsulate the whole ofthat experience in that hat. So

(12:37):
it's just an it's another way oflooking at the encounter.

Sovay Berriman (12:41):
That that idea of that pre constructed,
fantastical otherness feels likeis still very present, and
particularly played out in. Inindustries such as tourism. From

(13:03):
my perspective, there's an awfullot of fantastical creation of
an other experience that can beaccessed by the tourist. How, do
either of you sort of relatetourism to part of that. Those

(13:28):
sorts of I don't know thatothering, or in being related at
all to this fracturing. Jowdy

Jowdy Davey (13:48):
Yeah, I mean that Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it
feels like a kind of anarrative, we don't really have
control over, or at least it wassomething that was set by the
Tourist Board. And now, youknow, we have the internet, and
then we have a little bit morecontrol over it, maybe, but I
don't necessarily alwaysrecognise the Cornwall that gets

(14:10):
sold commercially, if you like,rarely recognise it? And, yeah,
I mean, I know, and we've talkedbefore about the sort of idea
that Cornwall is on where you gosort of go back in time, and to
go back to something that, youknow, sort of slightly purer
version, I don't know, you know,before all this imegration and
whatever you do you like andobviously, that's just just not

(14:33):
the case at all. And that's notmy experience of, of Cornwall,
and living here. And so and Ithink, you know, and obviously,
that's with corn will be verypopular place to come and
holiday. And we know there's amassive problem with second
homeownership, and you name it,and that sort of fracturing
there and that fracturing ofcommunities, which is there's

(14:55):
been all sorts of it's fracturedcorners culture, over hundreds
of years, but you know, the Nocurrent version of that is very
much the housing crisis, I wouldsay. And we've recently been
doing a bit of commissionresearch of our mapping of
intangible cultural heritage inCornwall, and what people need
in terms of support today, orwhat this community needs to

(15:17):
support those traditions toflourish and continue. And the
main thing really coming out wasthat these communities don't
exist anymore, because they'vebeen fractured, if you like,
because they have nowhere tolive, they're moving away. And
I, I moved away, I moved toLondon, I lived there for some
time, and I loved it. And it wasgreat, you know, and I've moved
back. And so I think I'm notsaying there's any, I think

(15:39):
people should go and experiencethe world. But the idea that you
can't live there, because youcan't afford to live there as
something slightly different.And, yeah, and just how, you
know, how do we support thosecommunities to keep those
traditions and what makes youknow, what makes a place as
really important?

Stephanie Pratt (15:59):
Well, I think I think this happened in the
United States more in thesouthwest area where the Pueblo
and the Hopi people, the Zuni,and others live, that it was, it
was created as a touristattraction, and people would go
to be sold or to buy items thatwere made specifically for the

(16:21):
tourist trade in that area. Butit's also this notion of the
land, the land giving yousomething that you're you've
lost, so that you travel tothese places where you get a
reconnection. So I think it'speople that are searching for
that rootedness that a personfrom an indigenous person, a

(16:47):
person born in a location hasthat connection, either through
history, memory, or justexistential living, you know,
living in a site for a long timethat makes gives you that
connection. But these peoplecoming from from elsewhere,

(17:08):
don't seem to have that withtheir own location. And so
they're searching for that, atleast, that's the way I would
see that. But, you know, I'm oneof those people, too, because
I'm not from Devon, and I'vecome here, but I now see so much
more after 30 years. And I thinkit takes almost that long to

(17:32):
have a deep relationship withsome where because you have to
see everything changing andmoving and yeah, and forming
that relationship.

Sovay Berriman (17:46):
That's interesting there about, about
the time that it takes. And thatsearching for a reconnection,
perhaps, if that's not present,where an individual sort of
calls home or usually resides.And does I mean, most tourist

(18:14):
excursions are fairly short ofshort in time. And, but it's
interesting to think about that,from the perspective of wanting
to reconnect somehow with landor create a space of time or

(18:35):
Yeah, and I, there's somethingthere about, like we would we
were chatting a bit earlieraround, like, climate change and
learning to live with climatechange and indigenous approaches
to land. And we were talkingabout place thought, Stef, could

(18:57):
you just sort of introduce thatidea in a moment, please?

Stephanie Pratt (19:04):
Yes, this is something I've ran across
recently in the work of VanessaWatts and others, an idea that
when we talk about nature, inour, let's say, in our more
academic, usual your EuropeanWestern thinking, it's us versus

(19:28):
nature or us in control ofnature, or that we are
essentially different entities.And I think when we think of
place thought, we're, we'regiving back to the land and the
and the non human beings, anagency, a voice and an activity

(19:49):
within that dynamic. So it's notjust us the nature its nature
and us in an active compliancewith each other. So that it's
one of the players that reallydoes in our ways that we want to

(20:11):
be in the world and the ways wethink, and indigenous people
think much more like that aslandscape as an active agent
within the histories of oursocieties and cultures.

Sovay Berriman (20:26):
And it leads me to think about other extraction
industries, such as mining, anda point where the land becomes a
resource to be exploited,really, rather than another sort

(20:55):
of symbiotic living, being thatis, is supporting and like
you're in a relationship withreciprocity, rather than a
relationship with the US. Andyes, and Cornish identity is

(21:21):
really bound up currently oraspects of it really bound up
with mining. Bears, so andthat's partly political. JD, can
you tell us anything about thatsort of the importance of mining
to Cornish kind of independenceand minority status?

Jowdy Davey (21:47):
Yeah, I suppose. It's something I'd grown up with
and mining. Yes, that's a,that's a very coolish thing
that's very much part of ourhistory. And I think and it,
it's so much possible landscapeas well. I mean, when you you
come home, and it's everywhere,and these wind shafts are very
much part of the horizon, youcannot avoid it, they're

(22:10):
everywhere. You know, it's oneof the only places I think,
Cornwall where you can have apiece of history like that right
next to a supermarket, you know,these sort of, but if I'm on it,
I suppose other it's difficultto connect with on a personal
level, because I, you know, myfamily don't come from a mining

(22:30):
background. You know,personally, I was about you
know, buying a house inCornwall, you always have to do
surveys to check that therearen't my jobs. And you know,
we're very familiar with radonin Cornwall, it doesn't bother
us too much. So they sort of,you know, things that you you
get uses might put other peopleoff legitimately, but it is, you

(22:51):
know, a, my school emblemprobably had a mineshaft on it.
But beyond that, actually, it'sit's quite difficult to connect
with or, you know, in acontemporary level about what
that means today. And again, andthere is a little bit in there
around it looking back at A andhow do we look forward, around

(23:11):
sort of Cornish identity andthat idea, you know, it's
something we're very famous,we're at the heart of the
industrial revolution at onepoint in time, but actually,
again, it for something that iscurrently destroying our planet,
you know, that the start of theend or waste if you like, and so
it's a really complicatedrelationship, isn't it? And it's

(23:32):
trying to find, you know, what,ways that that might become
something positive and notextractive in the future that's
going to be so important for thenext generation?

Stephanie Pratt (23:43):
Yeah, I mean, I hear that God. And I think that
we have to see also that humanorganisations and societies are
not able to maintain a balanceall the time that I think that
would include indigenous peoplethat there are times when the

(24:04):
balance tips over, and we'vedone too much extraction. So
maybe it's part of the justrecognising when the limit has
been reached. That there we'vetaken too much out of the earth
and certainly with oilextraction, but you know, there
may be an element in which tinmining is needed for certain

(24:26):
materials, and that if Cornwallis the place where this happens,
that it can be monitored andkept in some sort of balance,
you know, between thedestruction that it might cause
but also the benefits that comefrom having 10 as as a material,
you know, so I think it's like,we're learning about how to keep

(24:48):
these things in balance, andindigenous people have a lot of
wisdom about that. You know,that to listen to listening to
elders and listening to theirperspectives. about, well, back
in the day, we did it this way,or we knew when it was too much
mining or we knew when it wastoo much extraction, we could

(25:08):
see that, you know, and kind oftrusting that relationship again
with the earth and with, withour land and our landscape.

Jowdy Davey (25:20):
There is something at round, I'm going slightly off
topic, but around the languageas well. And one of the things
with the Cornish language, it'squite interesting is what it can
tell you about the relationshipwith, with the environment with
the land and, and how that sortof changed over time. So there's

(25:42):
a place called Rose near greenheaven, which it comes from the
Cornish red rose for a circle,which is where there's the plan
in place of planning glary,which is where the, you know,
the mediaeval amphitheatre andactually, it been overgrown. I
mean, you wouldn't have known itwas there, sort of understanding
through you're like, Okay,there's something from this,
that you know, your tick that'sbeen preserved through the

(26:03):
language, and I was reflectingthat I had no idea. So I've
always referred to the genes astowans, which is the Cornish
word which was about 25, beforeI realised that the rest of the
world didn't call them towansrelationship with it, you know,
it was alright, you know, that'sokay. You know, the towers, the
towers. And so there's somethingsort of kept within language as

(26:27):
well, you know, for me, that'sreally important about
understanding landscape andplace.

Sovay Berriman (26:34):
I had the same experience with language. I was,
I think I was almost 40 When Irealised teasy was dialect. Now,
teasy to be a bit moody usuallygoes with being tired.

Stephanie Pratt (26:51):
Interesting.

Sovay Berriman (26:55):
I was wondering if then there's an I have read
about this, like thepossibilities if we think about
this fracturing and like adistancing through industry,
perhaps, with our relationshipswith land? Is there the
possibility of learning fromindigenous peoples about this

(27:20):
relationship and payingattention to the land and when
enough extraction has happened?And now it's time to stop? Is
there the possibility for us toperhaps relearn say in somewhere
like Cornwall? Thoserelationships?

Stephanie Pratt (27:39):
Yeah, I think it means pointing the finger at
oneself, I suppose. And saying,what are my descendants going to
think about me when that itcomes their turn to take over
and make decisions and becomethe next generation. And we do
have a notion called The Sevengenerations in my people, and

(28:04):
Dakota, and the seventhgeneration stands for where you
are in relation to those behindyou and those in front of you.
So you carry with you only, Ithink two or three generations.
When you make a decision, youkeep those people in mind, but
then you also keep in mind theforce coming. So when you make a

(28:26):
decision, you hold all those allthose people together and
saying, what is this going tomean if I decide to extract more
petrol or to extract or, youknow, burn more fuel? You know,
it's it's, it's something thatthe indigenous have really
highlighted to me anyway, in myreading, and how good an

(28:49):
ancestor will you be? That's,that's a question a book asks
recently, which I just pickedup. So yeah, that's a question I
asked myself, and it's somethingyou can do right away, you can
say right away, I'm going tomake changes and no matter where
you are on the planet, you canyou can think about those

(29:11):
things.

Sovay Berriman (29:13):
And we think about like ancestors then as
well, in relation to that, andthe history of Cornish people,
the Cornish the Aspera. AndCornish miners travelling around
the world, being part of thatextraction, in other lands, a

(29:35):
part of that fracturing ofcultures and that colonial
programme. And I always feelvery strongly that there's a
real importance to makereparations for that. But also
right here in the place, which Ithink chimes with what you're

(29:56):
saying about how good anancestor will I be What can I do
here? And now to? Yeah, on theacknowledge those pasts and
honour those peoples affectedbut also honour this moment now,

(30:18):
and the opportunity we have herenow to do something different.

Stephanie Pratt (30:24):
Yes, that's that's the message. I think that
what that question raises Yeah.

Sovay Berriman (30:33):
Do you see that sort of being paid out or part
of the current activities withinlike Cornish cultural heritage
circles or Cornish culturalcircles God?

Jowdy Davey (30:52):
To an extent, I think but there's I think
there's probably more to beexplored there in the future, we
sort of think of a Cold War,it's the diaspora. And you know,
we're not we won't be connectedacross the world. And isn't that
wonderful, but you know, andyes, but also, there is some
work to be done exploring whythose international connections
are there, and, you know, andwhat they've, they've meant for

(31:15):
indigenous people, you know, inthose places across the world,
and yeah, that I think there's,there's more to be done there,
exploring that and confrontingsome of that.

Sovay Berriman (31:28):
And perhaps, language is part is part of that
as well. Like with thereconnection to our language,
and perhaps the more we usecanoe at Cornish. Does that
remind us about thoserelationships and the impact
that the Aspera had?

Jowdy Davey (31:48):
Yeah, I think so. It's that variety is the spice
of life, isn't it? And I think,you know, what, are boring
wells, it would be if everybodyspoke English, and it's just a
fantastic to have that varietythere. And I think it probably
makes you more tolerant as well,you know, potentially as a, as a
people, you know, if you do havea wider dialogue, you know, and,

(32:15):
and more languages to expressyourself through, I certainly
think, for me, having been luckyenough to grow up in and that
wasn't through my schooling,unfortunately, this system at
the ripe age of my family, andmy parents, you know, really
immersed in Cornish culture, asI'd like to think has made me

(32:36):
actually very open and welcomingof other cultures very accepting
and tolerant, you know, justbecause I feel quite safe in my
own identity. And so I thinkpossibly more of that, generally
in Cornwall might might help,you know, with, with those
difficult conversations abouttolerance more widely.

Stephanie Pratt (33:02):
Yeah, I, I know what you mean. You know, the
identity is not something youcan necessarily see on people's
faces or in their physique. It'sin your blood and your bones and
your memories and yourknowledge. And so speaking, the
language is just so important. Ithink it's absolutely the

(33:25):
reconnect the place ofreconnection to be able to name
things and start to tell thestories of the place, you know,
those place thoughts are stillthere. in Cornwall, so it's that
is that reclaiming andreasserting of the sovereignty
of the people there. That hasbeen so important for North

(33:47):
American indigenous people andprobably South American, that
kind of renaming of mountainsnow the renaming rivers after
indigenous names and this reallyis such a marvellous decision to
do that.

Jowdy Davey (34:03):
It's happening in Wales, isn't it? I think they're
talking about going back to aWelsh name for for Snowden. Just
yeah. Beautiful testing andgood. Yeah.

Stephanie Pratt (34:14):
Yeah. I welcome that very much. Yeah.

Sovay Berriman (34:18):
It's something that feels like it's been
relatively slow in Cornwall, butwe are seeing sort of rolling
out of bilingual place names androad names, and increasingly
bilingual signage for publicbuildings and in public spaces.

(34:38):
I think as that confidencegrows, it signals to days here
and others like this is this iswhat this place is and we can
have confidence in that it also,I think, on an individual level
helps to give one a bit moreconfidence to kind of claim that
space as well. And so I amcoordination. I'm going to use

(35:03):
these words now.

Jowdy Davey (35:06):
Yeah, I think that's been quite an interesting
and the, the sort of the use ofthe Cornish language is almost
in itself being a little bitdivisive and that you know, how
clueless you are, can you speakcoolness? Can you you know, it
sort of becomes this level andslightly. What very unhealthy if
you ask me, Mako is was ourCornish or an otter versus is

(35:29):
divisive? And, and I think, youknow, that's reflecting on Lesko
as a project in a way that'sreally interesting, because
actually cool nationalist is, isa whole host of different things
of which one is the language.And, and we can, I'd like to see
a place where we can all sign upto that, you know, and sort of
understand what it means andit's wider. Again, are those

(35:51):
people that feel very Cornishbut have no connection to
language whatsoever? And, youknow, that the it's all part of
the mix, I think. And yes,stepping away from something
that, you know, that makes itinclusive, rather than divisive,
I think is really important aswell.

Stephanie Pratt (36:09):
I think there was almost a determined effort
to repress indigenous languages,I mean, that there certainly
wasn't North America, it was, itwas almost a governmental policy
to take children away from theirparents and make them into what
you might call US citizens ortake the Indian and save the man

(36:31):
was the great slogan that theIndian boarding schools said,
and I don't know how it washere, but I heard recently a
Welsh person telling me aboutthem, their family being struck.
I mean, physically. What didthey call capital punishment,
you know, hurt, because theyspoke their language in skin

(36:52):
school. And that was withinmodern history, you know, that
was going on. So I think thiswas a determined effort to, I
don't know, almost manufactureeverybody to be the same, like
you say, you know, like, we'llall be good consumers, or if
we'll all be compliant some way,you know, and I think the

(37:14):
language is such a defiance, youknow, because it's saying, I'm
not having your ideas and yourconcepts. I want my own formed
from the way I was taught by myfamily, my ancestors, my
surroundings, you know, that isa very political act to do such

(37:34):
things. I think it's fantastic.

Sovay Berriman (37:41):
I wanted to touch on in this around language
and people's comfort aroundwords that are unfamiliar to
them, or perhaps, phrases orways of speaking or being
unfamiliar. And he sayssomething within this about

(38:05):
people wanting to not feeluncomfortable, like is that
somewhere within I don't want tosay that's necessarily somewhere
within all colonialism, but someactions around suppression or
repression, we're only going tospeak this because then we all
understand it, which doesn'tactually open up the

(38:29):
conversation of how comfortableor how much people understand
something or how comfortablepeople feel. To be speaking,
that language, and of course,doesn't take into account any
sort of anything around neurodivergence or disability or

Jowdy Davey (38:50):
feel like it's quite an English thing. may say,
but there are plenty ofcountries around the world that,
you know, bilingual trilingual,goodness, you name it, it's
really, really common to speak,you know, six, eight different
languages. And that's normal.And I think, you know, there are

(39:11):
words that you use to expresssomething that don't exist in a
certain language that you needto, you know, express yourself
and it comes out in a differentway. So I think it's, it's just
bonkers, isn't it? The idea thatwe should all be? Well, that
it's divisive, not to I think,you know, it's what a brilliant
way of of learning about theworld. There are things you

(39:31):
know, feelings, per se, youcan't express in English that
you can in other languages thatwe miss out on and that like the
towans, you know, I mean, thatthat sort of relationship with
the land, you know, and and allof that is I think it's yeah,
it's it's probably that'sunfair, just in English, we ever
those countries that are sort ofgenerally monolingual in a way

(39:54):
where it you know, the idea ofspeaking lots of different
languages is so foreign, butactually It's perfectly normal
in many places in the world.

Stephanie Pratt (40:04):
Yes, you're right shouty bilingual.
trilingual is very common andsay a place like the Far East to
see hear people jumping from thedifferent, you know, Cambodian
and into Vietnamese and intoThai dialects and just being
very, and they're notnecessarily friends, you know,

(40:25):
they've had a history of, ofaggression between those
countries, but it's acomfortableness about who you
are, perhaps that allows you toaccept? I don't know, I don't
know what it is. Yeah, aboutEnglish. It's a good question.

Sovay Berriman (40:43):
Is it? Is it then somehow? Is it connected to
that colonial that colonialism,that colonial project?

Stephanie Pratt (40:51):
Well, I can't help thinking that historically,
at least, you know, thatseriously, that it was an
administrative nightmare I canimagine to have so many overseas
territories so much, toadminister and maintain, and to
have a kind of consistency aboutyour documentation. And who

(41:12):
could read the treaties. We knowthat a lot of treaties were not
understood by the indigenouspeople to whom they were
addressed, that they were forcedto sign often, one person only
was required to sign a treaty,and that the whole group were
not asked, you know, or didn'tunderstand that what they were
agreeing to, or that the peoplethat were signing the treaty or

(41:36):
creating the treaty, usuallythey were British or English, or
then United States or Canadian,with my people didn't care
whether you can understand itand use those documents as a
means to acquire more land andmore land. But land is the big
question I mean, land is theyhave a big movement called land

(41:56):
back in the United States inCanada, which is trying to
acquire indigenous land backthat is not being used, or it's
not being developed. Andrecently there, I think, in
California, somebody was able toacquire a piece of land back for
the tribal groups there. So it'ssort of the land is very

(42:18):
important to how one can feelindigenous again, to reclaim
that sense.

Sovay Berriman (42:29):
Yeah, that makes, that makes, well, it
makes a lot of sense, obviously,because of that physical space.
And that space to stand in aplace that, like, I certainly
feel standing on the land ofWest Cornwall, where I hail

(42:52):
from, gives me a different sortof strength or understanding of
myself. Then any other any otherpiece of land. And I can
understand something of the of aspace it certainly with here

(43:13):
gives me a space to yet tounderstand myself differently,
perhaps more fully.

Jowdy Davey (43:19):
I think that's really interesting as well
around, not just sort of land, Isuppose with buildings for me,
and with my fundraising hat onand I spend a lot of time
raising money to buy buildingsback for the local communities.
And a lot of them in Cornwallare old Wesleyan chapels, or
Methodist chapels. And ofcourse, Methodism being a really

(43:42):
strong part of Cornwall'sreligious identity or, you know,
heritage and identity and andyou see a lot of chapels tenants
are very lovely homes, that haveclearly had a lot of money spent
on them, but also that, again,that sense of sort of lost in
the community, these spaces,particularly in really rural
communities, whether you know,that they could, they could

(44:03):
gather together and say, I'mworking on three projects at the
moment, or bringing back youknow, community buildings that
were community buildings,either, you know, churches or
libraries that have fallen intodisrepair, or, you know, we're
at risk of being developed andturned into goodness knows what

(44:23):
flats, pubs that have been savedby local community, and it's not
quite the same as land, but it'sthat sort of sense of community
space, you know, something thatthat doesn't belong to him
privately that anyone canaccess. And I'm particularly
tied up in that sort of heritageof a sense of place.

Sovay Berriman (44:47):
And do think, and then also thinking about
their use he, like, those whocome to call more choose to come
To a place who don't necessarilyhave an ancestral relationship

(45:10):
to it, but also not a personalhistory relationship to it. So
maybe haven't grown up or, butthen feel very much a connection
with a place many people chooseMake a choice to move to
Cornwall and to make their livesin Cornwall and to invest in

(45:34):
community here and speak have areally strong sense of belonging
and feeling as they were cominghome. And yeah, I'm interested
in you, basically, your thoughtson that sort of choice to

(45:56):
connect to an identity

Jowdy Davey (46:00):
once again. And again, it sort of comes back to
that connection with land,doesn't it and everyone, whether
they grew up here or chose tomove to Cornwall, it is a little
careful what I say, you know,it's not disconnected, it's very

(46:22):
well connected, but it is asparsely populated rural area,
it's difficult to move around.You know, I mean, when I was
living in London, and I made themove back home, just over 10
years ago, and I went to thepopular pub on a Friday night,
where in London, you'd be luckyto get a seat anywhere at all,
you know, on a Friday night. Andin Cornwall, there were five
people there, and three of themwere me and my mates and

(46:43):
thinking, What have I done, youknow, is there there is, but
there is that sort of, you know,and here I am still quite happy,
but it's that you are, it's away of life almost by virtue of
the landscape and, and how youlive. So, we will have that
shared already, you know,regardless of than your

(47:03):
background and knowledge of theculture. So, yeah, I suppose,
you know, it sort of developsfrom there, but it is how you
kind of connect people intothose communities, then, you
know, and and how peoplecontribute to help supporting
the indigenous culture, if youlike to sort of flourish. It is

(47:26):
interesting, how we helpfacilitate that, I suppose.

Stephanie Pratt (47:32):
Yeah, I mean, I agree that it's, it's not maybe
so much the person, but theplace that tells you how to be a
good ancestor, and, but itthinking about indigenous North
America, that we had a lot ofinteraction among our different
groups or different nations, wehad wars, we had captives, and

(47:54):
we had what's called adoptionprocesses. So if someone was
taken, say, through war, morecaptivity, they could become a
member of another group, anothertribe, and they would be adopted
officially into that group, andwould be given maybe even a new
name and had to learn the newthe new ways to be in that

(48:17):
place, and to be a good personin the society. So it was kind
of in a way, it was kind of acontrolled society and saying
that these are the requirementshere and this land and this
place, you you know, youacknowledge these ancestors and
the and honour these practices.So I think for modern people,
maybe they need to see that aswell that they're kind of

(48:39):
adopted Cornish and you know,that if the Cornish people are
kind enough to let to allow themto come in, that they then
acknowledge and honour thoselanguages, those practices in
those places that are importantand have deep cultural and
intangible heritage in thatarea.

Sovay Berriman (49:02):
And that intangible heritage I think is I
mean, that's something that's areally hot topic for us in
Cornwall currently. And DJI DSbeen undertaking a lot of
research in that area. What Ifind really fascinating about
the nation of that intangiblecultural heritage is it doesn't

(49:25):
necessarily mean yeah, a supposeflag on the car. Perhaps. It
might mean a way of speaking ora bit of dialect or how you
prefer your chips. Can youYou're crazy. Yeah. Oh, yeah,

(49:48):
that's certainly the jam cream.
Jowdy, could you tell us a bitabout out that identification of
intangible cultural heritage.

Jowdy Davey (50:07):
Yeah, so like you say, it seems to be the latest
things in it that everybody'sdiscussing, but I suppose
something that we didn'tnecessarily call it that, but
the low end a parent has beendealing with for the last 40
years, you know, in terms ofcelebrating and promoting and
connecting to other intangiblecultural heritage cultures. And

(50:29):
it is, I mean, it it, you know,that it is by virtue of the fact
that it's intangible, it isanimated by the communities
that, that own it, you know,that it has to have people in
order to live effectively, youknow, you can't put it in a box
and, or if you do, get blogs andmuseum, it's constantly
evolving, you know, and there'sall sorts of really interesting,

(50:52):
hot debates over how muchintervention you have, you know,
around because we are dealingwith fragments, and, you know,
you know, the languages that wedon't know how it sounded
because we don't have anyrecordings of it, you know,
there are some liberties if youlike, that you have to take to
sort of recapture some of thatheritage, but it's still
important for understanding inplace and community cohesion.

(51:15):
And it's a, particularly whenit's fragmented, it's, it's
quite delicate, you know, andthen how we sort of bring that
back to life, but it has to beowned by these communities, I
think, which sort of comes fullcircle back to the issue of, you
know, if these communities startto be fragmented by lack of
access to housing, and thenhaving to move away for reasons

(51:37):
that aren't, you know, excitingones about expanding your
career, but just you can'tafford to live there anymore.
That was more negative, it's, ithas a massive impact, and it
causes really bad feeling, youknow, and we start some, it's
not just fragmented cultures,it's fragmented communities, you
know, across Cornwall across theUK, actually. And so, yes, I've

(52:00):
got gone off topic a little bitthere. But the tangible where it
is, yeah, it is. It has to belived and breathed. I think
that's what's really important.

Sovay Berriman (52:10):
And can it be something is it recognises
something that might even be away of being or turns of phrase
or?

Jowdy Davey (52:26):
Yeah, so that was that was quite interesting
coming out of the results of themapping exercise that we did. So
we did a very light touch, wewere looking at, were designed
to pair and go in the future.It's like many organisations
post COVID having a chance tosort of reflect and think, Okay,
what do we do in the future? Andso I guess we didn't know and we
needed to do a bit of researcharound what what was going on

(52:47):
out there and communities in thesector and how we can support
that meaningfully going forward.So we commissioned a quite a
light touch mapping exercise,which was working out what was
going on out there, what groupswhat individuals were doing
intangible cultural heritage.And and what the frustrating
their ambitions in terms oftaking it forward and say we we

(53:09):
did dictate what what we meantby intangible cultural heritage.
And one of the things that cameout of it was actually we we've
missed that kind of just feelingolder is even more intangible
and the capacity I don't know,what is it? What does it you
know, what does it feel like tobe Cornish? And that's something
Yeah, that we sort of didn't getthe sort of really idiosyncratic

(53:31):
says, I don't know. Someone wassaying that it was a maybe an
Curnow conference and it was theonly place they could think over
a political party held a araffle at the end, you know,
that was eccentrically Cornishabout that, you know, is that
how do you capture that, that,you know, and that there are, I
think, no more questions thatcame out of that piece of
research analysis, which wasexactly what we hoped for

(53:53):
anyway, we're expecting butyeah, absolutely capturing has
you capture a feeling just a wayof being is Challenge accepted?

Stephanie Pratt (54:06):
Well, I can, I can give you an example of a way
that a friend of mine and I helpto recapture I guess it could be
an intangible cultural heritage.She's a woman that lives in
Morton Hampstead. She's anartist called Melinda schwag
coffer, but she's also MuskogeeCreek. So she's a Native

(54:30):
American like me. But what wedid was we decided to be taught
how to tan buckskin as ourancestors would have done in
North America, but we foundsomeone on Dartmoor to tell us
or to show us. So in thatprocess of actually taking a
hide from an animal who hadgiven its life, we were going to

(54:53):
create something very useful andsomething beautiful out of the
the death of that animal. So wewere scraping that And in that,
in that process, we felt wefound muscles that we kind of
already knew about that ourancestors had, which is this
action of scraping. And it's allwomen that do this work and

(55:14):
indigenous. So we were talkingand laughing and saying this is
where we're in our ancestorsfootsteps, you know, and it were
in that place. But it wasnothing about the land so much
as the activity of doing that.So I think it's, it's something
it is very nuanced, and but thefeeling was what touched us that

(55:37):
we felt indigenous as we weredoing this hide tanning on
Dartmoor. It can come in themost unexpected places, what I'm
saying?

Sovay Berriman (55:49):
And that I think the thing that seems to come
across to me more and more isthat there, there see, there's
no specific expectation of whatthat feeling needs to be or, for

(56:13):
instance, perhaps it's useful,the mapping exercises are really
valuable. But for individuals,it's also not a requirement to
sort of pathologize one'sidentity or, or need to provide
that as evidence of sort of, toauthenticate oneself or for the

(56:36):
benefit of others.

Stephanie Pratt (56:39):
Yes, exactly.

Sovay Berriman (56:41):
And that is something that I feel there,
there is a sort of fair bit ofparticulalry, particularly that
comes across with Cornishnesswithin Cornwall at present. And
it does feel as though that isconnected to the things you've
been mentioning Jowdy aroundlike the housing crisis, and

(57:05):
tiers of society, we now haveand how cultures, communities
are being fractured, also,something around who deserves to
live in a place or to sort oflive in the villages by the sea.

Jowdy Davey (57:23):
Yes, absolutely. And you know, and there's,
there's interesting, well, youknow, what sort of Padstow
Mayday is. And I'm not declaredto be an authority on this at
all, but, um, but it you know,it's changed and developed so
much over the years. And I thinkthere's definitely a feeling of
if people kind of reclaiming thetown, you know, from the outside

(57:46):
looking in, it's people comingin, you know, during people who
live there that now live up onthe estates on the outskirts of
Padstow, because all of thelovely cottages you see in the
town have now got, you know, forrent signs on them over the
holidays, you know, and it's,it's that real sense of coming
together, and I'm not sure 50years ago, that was it would

(58:06):
have had the same feeling thathas evolved as a piece of sort
of intangible heritage, it'sabout reclaiming in a sense,
it's just evolved around theworld as it as it is now. And
and perhaps even more so, youknow, you know, what the impact
of the housing crisis is having,but yeah, it touches everything,
I think, you know, these kindsof social issues. And it's

(58:31):
reflected back in in that, thatheritage as it evolves.

Sovay Berriman (58:37):
Yeah, it would be it would be really positive
to see that all unpack a bitover the coming years, and maybe
in some of this research intoIntangible Cultural culture, and

(58:58):
re sort of celebration of days,Minh, mundane identifiers of
cultural identity mightencourage or get confidence to
too many to kind of celebratethat culture, that living

(59:18):
culture, I often slip into thatthat using the term heritage
because it's so sort of withthis and all over the place, but
I'm trying to train myself tosay it's living culture.

Jowdy Davey (59:38):
And I think that's an interesting when you look at
you know, sort of complicatedwords like authenticity, and you
know, and what it withinintangible living, cultural
heritage, you know, it's, thepoint is you can't pin it out.
And actually, if you're lookingwell, you know, you have to find

(59:58):
Cornish, well, you know, Nextweek, it might be this another
moment, it's that but it'sactually what the community's
faces, you know, that that liveor that live there anyways. So,
yeah, living,

Stephanie Pratt (01:00:13):
I was just going to add that I do love that
phrase living culture because Ithink it's so true that things
are not static, and they neverwere put in a box and held they
were always lived andexperienced and therefore
changed by the particularcommunity involved. And, and
very happy to change, you know,to adapt. So that's a really

(01:00:39):
important point, I was justgonna add that

Sovay Berriman (01:00:42):
it feels like there's something in this,
again, that is around just ageneral, a general sort of
societal shift or approach shiftthe way we view things. So it
doesn't need to be or certainly,oughtend be viewed in a kind of

(01:01:04):
linear, it is this and then itis this certain way. And this is
the definitions that we allknow. In fact, those those
boundaries, and thosedefinitions are always shifting
and changing and a far more. Idon't even know what form would

(01:01:27):
describe it. But I made aproject a few years ago where I
spoke about supple and subtleboundaries. And it feels that
this is part of thatconversation around identity. In
fact, it's always shifting andchanging. And sometimes those
boundaries become more blurred,or more defined than others for

(01:01:48):
individuals as well as forcommunities.

Stephanie Pratt (01:01:51):
Yeah, very well said.

Sovay Berriman (01:01:57):
Thank you both so much. You're both
fascinating. There's so much somuch to say and so much to
share, and I'm very appreciativemeur ras

Stephanie Pratt (01:02:10):
wopi da wopi da. Thank you. Thanks, Jowdy,
and thanks, Sovay Great.

Jowdy Davey (01:02:19):
Meur ras Thank you.

Sovay Berriman (01:02:24):
Meur ras, a’gas goslowes, thank you for
listening. Turther episodes ofthe MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh
podcast can be find on mywebsite Sovay berriman.co.uk.
That's sovayberriman.co.uk Whereyou also find guest's

(01:02:59):
biographies and a resource pageof links to further reading on
the topics discussed. If youfeel inspired to join the MESKLA
conversation about contemporaryCornish cultural identity,
please get in touch with meSovay Berriman. via my website
or social media, you'll findMESKLA | Brewyon Drudh on

(01:03:19):
Facebook, Instagram, andTwitter. The MESKLA | Brewyon
Drudh podcast and project hasbeen made possible due to a
wealth of inkind help andsupport for many parties,
including the Lowender Peranfestival. Gorsedh Kernow,

(01:03:40):
Cornwall Council's Cornishlanguage office, Kowethas an
yeth Kernewek, Cornwallneighbourhoods for change and
Falmouth University Falmouthcampus. The project has been
supported using public fundingby the National Lottery through
Arts Council England, andfurther funding has been

(01:04:01):
gratefully received fromHistoric England by Redruth
Unlimited. Meur ras dhywgha'gas termyn, agas gweles. Thank
you for your time. See youlater.