MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh #7 - A Conversation About Art Working & Colonial Legacies, with Association of Unknown Shores - MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sovay Berriman (00:00):
Dydh da ha dynnargh pub huni dhe bodkastow
MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh ostyesgenev, Sovay Berriman. Hello

(00:25):
and welcome everyone to theMESKLA | Brewyon Drudh podcasts,
hosted by me Sovay Berriman.MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh is a
multi platform project, usingsculpture making and
conversation to explorecontemporary Cornish cultural
identity. Through workshops,podcasts, a symposium, and an

(00:50):
exhibition. The project invitespeople to share their
experiences of identity andCornwall, and their views on
Cornish culture and itsrelationship to land, language,
heritage, tourism, the Cornishdiaspora, and much, much more.
These podcasts recordConversations with guests whose

(01:14):
research or lived experiencetouches on the project themes.
The views, thoughts and opinionsexpressed are the speaker's own.
All conversations are carriedout with a spirit of generosity
and openness, creating space forthe discussions to twist and
turn. And I'm very grateful toall who have taken part.

(01:39):
In this seventh podcast, I'mjoined by artists Kayle Brandon
and Angela Piccini, ofAssociation of Unknown Shores.
Association of Unknown Shores,formed in 2018, is an
interdisciplinary socialpractice art project and
platform for the research,production and commissioning of

(02:02):
art and cultural works. Theproject explores the hidden
nature of persistent materialand remembered traces of the
enforced cultural exchangebetween what we now know as the
UK and Canada. Working with thelegacies of Martin Frobisher's

(02:22):
16th century attempt to coloniseNanuvut. A collective of
disaporic artists, Associationof Unknown Shores turns the
unknown back on itself tocritique the worn colonial
‘discovery’ trope. We join theconversation with Kayle telling

(02:45):
us about the origins ofAssociation the Unknown Shores.
Govenek a'm beus hwi dheomlowenhe goslowes orto. I hope
you enjoy listening

Kayle Brandon (03:00):
Association of unknown shores began because I
was one project in relation toexploring Bristol and exploring
ways of having a meaningfulrelationship with places of
Bristol was called a Von canoepilots, which was in
collaboration with Heath buntingthis took place in the night in

(03:21):
2000. Somewhere, we decided toexplore the river river
waterways, Bristol, as totalrookies as people who didn't
know the water as somebody whodidn't even know how to canoe or
navigate water systems. So it'svery much about being a lot of

(03:43):
my work very much about being anamateur about being DIY about
gaining access to knowledge andexperiences through an embodied
self generative communityempowerment process of just
trying to make things happen tothe scale in which we can. And

(04:09):
so I found out about this storythrough explanations of the
Bristol waterways all that timeago, a couple of decades ago.
And the story was of how anInuit man undertook a hunting
event with their with his kayakand his his bows and shot ducks

(04:37):
within the centre of Bristol.And that utterly kind of
compelled me to find out more.It just seems kind of like, you
know, so it was just thisinsight that I wanted to know
more and through researchingOkay, I'm obvious that this was

(05:01):
a very significant moment, andtoo big a situation to explore
by myself. And it just occurredto me that I kind of wanted to
work with Angela significantlyaround her her own Heritage's

(05:27):
and and experiences of the cityand how she worked. And but
also, because, you know, wehadn't collaborated before, and
I just kind of got a sense that,you know, would be really,
really interesting to worktogether on this. So that's how
it started a conversation atAngela's house has now led to

(05:50):
what we call association ofunknown shores. A platform
that's been very process led,and, and careful in its making,
collapsing and reforming as wego along. And very much socially

(06:16):
LED. So a lot of associationsrun on our shows, we will
produce, we're producing a bodyof objects. There is this other
work that's going on under it,which is more like the mycelium
of the project, which isgenerated through conversations,
working with others, meetingdifficult questions. Wayfinding,

(06:40):
making mistakes, pickingourselves up again, dropping
threads, finding them again, allthat kind of stuff. That's led
us to this very interestingpoint in time.

Angela Piccini (06:53):
Yeah, so it I really love hearing, Kayle tell
those origin stories indifferent ways and how they, how
they shift and change yourproject as well. And I think,
from my perspective, havinghaving lived in Bristol from 96,
to 2021. And always sort ofrunning across, you know, Kayla

(07:18):
and I are pads sort of crossedover in so many different ways
through the city over thatperiod of time. So I was really,
really incredibly happy andexcited when kale talked to me
about this history and asked ifI wanted to do some work with
her on it. And I think the otheraspect of it is, I'm originally

(07:42):
from Canada from Western Canada,but first generation of
immigrant parents. So I'm from asettler colonial nation with
very little in the way of timebased roots in Canada. And I'm
part of a settler colonialcomplex. And I think for me,

(08:02):
what was really interesting isthat I had never heard of
Frobisher in terms of likeFrobisher lemonade, or in a
Canadian context, Frobisher Bay,which is what the capital city
of Nunavut in northern Canadawas called. It's now called a
caliphate, which is the place ofmany fishes. But it was named
Frobisher bay by MartinFrobisher, but I'd never been

(08:24):
taught that history when I wasgoing to school in Canada, so to
come to the UK to learn therelationship between the
privateers Queen Elizabeth, thefirst, the sort of nexus of

(08:44):
Elizabethan magic, theft, fraud,political chicanery, and the
origins of colonisation, wasreally just a really interesting
opportunity and a lot ofresponsibility to hold and it
felt like that was a thing thatI wanted to do, to, to do the

(09:07):
research around this project. Somy own practice, I have a real
interest in how we can activatethe material traces of the past
and the present, how we canthink about archives and
artefacts as radical timetravelling objects that
depending on how you handlethem, and depending on how you
reposition them, and juxtaposethem collage them can

(09:29):
potentially create new newfutures and myriad new futures.
And so how you handle theseworks, it's comes with obvious
obviously huge weight. Becausewhatever you do with an object
and a trace, will foreclose somefutures while opening up other
futures. So what do we do withthis and it became really

(09:50):
interesting for me as well howdo we how do we hold the story
which sits at an intersection ofvarious different people So,
anyway, of Northern, what's nowknown as Canada, and these
thieves from England, but alsoordinary people. So the story of

(10:13):
Frobisher his journey tonorthern Canada, you know, he's
press ganging free miners andCornish miners. So basically
forcing labouring men to be partof his crew to go and oppress
other people in another part ofthe world. And me and kale have,

(10:33):
obviously, we are connected tothese stories through our own
personal legacies, but we don'thave direct descendency from any
of those communities. And yet,we also want to speak to and
speak back at and speak into andmake work that sits within and
messes colonisation up in someway. So, it was that sense of

(11:00):
Okay, so, so where did where dowe go from here? What do we do
with this history? What areappropriate ways of working with
these materials and of speakingwith and working alongside and
collaborating with people whoare from those descent
communities, whether those arethe descent communities of the
free miners in the Forest ofDean or the descent communities

(11:21):
of people who currently live inIqaluit, which is a thriving
city of you know, two to 3000people in the far north

Thank you, there's so much just in both
what both of you have said therethey say much that I'm sort of
just full of processing all thelayers of that as well. A thing
that really comes across ininitially in some of that is the

(12:01):
way you speak about you speakabout the project and your work
in the project is from aperspective of taking time
paying attention wayfinding andit feels like that that approach

(12:26):
or that way of making work andabout exploring your way through
this subject matter isabsolutely essential and
integral to it when you thinkabout that, the way you approach

(12:51):
a project, is that a strategyyou developed or is it is it
something that just naturallyevolved like did you set out on
the project for with that inmind that way of working in mind

well, we knew we needed to work with people in
your communities that this storydirectly related to an who and
it affected and also workdirectly with the remains story

(13:35):
which there are many I'm Iessentially feel like I'm a
landless person, no indigenous.I have an indigenous heritage in
a kind of very as you move Ican't even answer that question.

(13:58):
So I have a very kind ofcomplicated relation to
relationship to a longing whichhas come about through my kind
of do heritage Heritage's andancestral stories that have led
to my personal identity we Ithink some of those intentions

(14:26):
like wayfinding working withothers compensation has very
much I think I can be fair tosay it's been both part of our
practices for a long time. Thisproject definitely taught me and
developed the core kind of thatthis this is a really

(14:47):
essentially really interested inlike work and and essential work
working on with dealing with theimpacts, ongoing impacts and
legacy of colonisation andcommonality which is Once you
start working with it, it's justriddled like Bristol is riddled
with ongoing kind of colonialstructures that perpetuate that

(15:16):
kind of form of reality andrelation to, to land and people.
So we're dealing with reallykind of a kind of system
systematic approach,colonisation, which is
devastating, traumatic andongoing. So we knew also that we

(15:41):
had to kind of really sort ofjust strip back and kind of find
out, through talking and workingwith these different remains, in
a way that kind of we would beled rather than bleeding.
Because obviously, that was akind of ethically, a really

(16:02):
important standpoint. When infact, we even, and there's some
moments along the way thatreally challenged our identities
and our kind of ethical workingrelationships and what
authenticity is, and where wecan even speak from, where we
can even make from, you know,where do we make from where do

(16:23):
we speak from? What's What canwe hold and what is for others,
you know, to actually lead onvery, very cool, important ways
of working, working withcommunities where, where trust
around has been eroded throughthrough the impacts of
colonisation. So going back tothat kind of mycelium network,

(16:48):
kind of working with objectsthat generate conversations, I
think, in some ways, thoseconversations will are one of
the most important legacy ofthis work. We went to a CalVet.
And that was an amazingachievement to get there. So. So

(17:10):
I think, when we met JanetPittsville, at Brewster, she
actually said, listen, the soundof your voice, my voice he was
referring to is actually goingto be potentially a trigger for
many people here. And then, youknow, because a very kind of

(17:31):
British middle of the roadaccent that still has a kind of
traumatic effects on people thathave been on the receiving end
of colonisation. So we, so thatso there was these kind of
moments of kind of like, Oh,right. I'm kind of like, what is

(17:51):
my, my cultural identity, myidentity that I'm born into the
country, the word, you know,what's the actual impact and
implication for other people?How do we work with this? This
is not ours. How do we work withthis story? Where do we stand
from so a lot of the approacheswere very much developed through

(18:13):
that, having to be careful andwanting not having to be
wanting, really wanting andwanting that to be more
important than what necessarilygets what what the result is
necessarily, actually, at theend of the day.

And to be okay with that care and not always
landing. So I think one of theone of the key parts of learning
of working with the people thatwe've been working with that
sense of just because you'recaring and attending and doing
things mindfully and well,doesn't mean that you're getting

(18:58):
a response. And I think learningdifferent modes of response
different modes of attention tothe extent to which you know,
what we do might be irrelevantto people at certain points in
time. And learning to be okaywith that has also been part of
that process, which has meantthat we both have had to shift

(19:22):
the ways in which we might haveworked previously. So it's
learning new, new practices inthat way.

One really interesting experience we've had
with one of the objects was someof them the all that is mind
taken from cod Long Island haswound up in Dartford in a wall
and Dartford that's currentlyframing a kind of modern
shopping experience of like Asdaand b&q and Pizza Hut. And

(19:56):
anyway, so we went there and andSome of this ancient stone that
was mined in the 16th century1570 78, three miners mine, that
pod Long Island, forgive me ifmy pronunciation is off what
good. So actually, a lot of thework is actually being in the

(20:22):
place going to experience theremains in a kind of very
physical way, where we don'tquite know what's going to
happen, but something's going tohappen. And one of the stones at
work here, the stones havefallen out of that wall. And one
of them was just next car. Andit was just this moment, just
like, Okay, we're going to takethe stones, stones that remind

(20:46):
1578 And we ended up carryingone of them back, to carry it.
and handing it eventually toJanet, pitcher like Brewster.
And we didn't really know thesignificance of that. But
slowly, the stone got heavy onour backs, you know, and more

(21:10):
and more, you'd get it out andhand it around kind of cafes and
restaurants and talk to peopleabout the story of, of why we've
got stone in our bag. And thatwas a way of just dispersing the
story and dispersing kind ofpractices in the current
dilemmas that were kind of questfor questioning through that. So

(21:33):
I feel like, like your work thisway that the stone axe does is a
focus for us to kind of generateconversations. And then there
was this amazing moment where wehanded it back, we handed it to
each other. And, and alsothrough that kind of carrying up

(21:53):
a stone, we realised Oh, this isthis is actually falling into a
performative ground. This isfalling into a kind of quite
sort of indie repatriation kindof process. This is falling into
women's hands where it's allbeen in no male hands before
this, you know, so we kind ofgathered momentum and meaning as

(22:13):
we kind of went along. And, andthen, when we actually handed it
to John, it was like, Oh, wow,this is this is quite
significant. This is the firsttime this stone has returned
back to the land of itsbelonging to five, what how

(22:36):
many? 500 years, 600 years, andit came through our rucksacks
and our hands and our funny aresort of meetings and are kind of
just having to lug it aboutplaces. And so that felt really
like we learn through engagingwith the object in that way. The

(22:56):
remain of that object in thatway and continue to so then, for
now that stones appeared inreally significant work. By lack
of Delphi, Williamson, and JamieGriffiths, where they created
this image, I don't know thetitle of that work. Do you know

(23:17):
the title? Control? It's cold,

the known shore whites, whites, white liar,
white liar, and the more so

is there a link to that via your through your
project website?

No, not yet. But we've got to just sort our
website out. We haven't donethat all yet. But it will be

great. Yeah, it'd be trying to beef up.
Thanks.

So So through going there, we met Jamie and
told the story, Frobisher, shehad this persona called White
liar already approved throughoutthe rest of exploring that kind
of white lie identity. And thenwent on to create white lie a
costume based on Frobisher. Andthen, and then they produce this

(24:08):
kind of image. Chad's like, thatloop kind of referencing the
Queen Elizabeth first and thenit's just, you know, just need
to see it really, but the stonewas it within that so then they
went and collected the stonefrom Janet Janet left it in a
shoe for them to pick out gottaken out of the shoe got put
into that shot. So it's justlike, amazing to see what can

(24:32):
happen, you know, like, theongoing legacy of our kind of
spontaneous and, like,improvised decision making that
we that we had was just like,Should we take it? Yeah, let's
go for it and and now whatshould we do and that what
should we do? And that's whatI'm sort of, I'm still amazed by

(24:54):
that.

And I think so I was just gonna I think what's so
interesting about thatparticular rock as well as it,
it ties us back into thosedebates about land without
having to be land locked in someway because that chunk of land
has moved around the world nowseveral times. And then, so
Jamie Griffis is a white Englishartist who lives up in Iqaluit

(25:20):
and lacquer looms and Bathory isa Greenlandic Inuk artist who
also lives in Iqaluit, so theycollaborate. They then made this
sort of Tableau photograph whichwas then turned into a large
sort of Billboard, which wasinstalled in a park in
Vancouver, which is where I'mfrom which in Kitsilano. And the

(25:42):
importance of doing that isbecause that part of Western
Canada remains unseededindigenous lands. So that part
of Canada never went through anyform of treaty process. So the
crown effectively stole thatland from the indigenous nations
who occupied it. So that's thekind of that's the import of

(26:04):
installing that photographicwork in Vancouver in a part of
Vancouver called Kitsilano,which is named after chief cut
Solano. So that rock fromNunavut, which went off to
Darfur, and which then went backto Nunavut, which then went to
Vancouver to say somethingreally profound about land and

(26:25):
ownership and control and youcan't, there is no ownership. So
I think what's also interestingbetween that relationship
between the unceded territory ofVancouver, and then in Nunavut,
in northern Canada is the wordnoona means land. And anyway,
they don't have the same kind oftreaty territory process as

(26:48):
other indigenous people inCanada. So it's more of a it's
more of a shared it holdterritory that's marked by
settlement, hunting, gatheringand different kinds. So there's
not that same sense of landownership and exchanging of land
as packet through anywaycommunities.

Frobisher also took a no hold on the post. So
foppish, it basically I don'tknow, like, maybe listeners
won't know. Frobisher was thefirst person commissioned by the
Crown was the first 15. Datesall over the place. The first

(27:35):
trip maybe it was 1568. Anyonewho's commissioned to break from
the Northwest Passage. And alsosailors were informed by John D.
who was very important toElizabeth first about navigation
about what to find plantsrecord. John D had really
explored Columbus's journals. Sothere was and then John D, they

(28:04):
save through this around aboutthe same time. We don't know I
don't know how true this is. ButI loved it. When I was given
this information I was given Iwas like in a vegetable shop
hanging out with a friend toldhim about this history about
John Dean who said oh, yeah,apparently John D. Did a rich

(28:25):
donde was a person that namedBritish Empire and did a ritual
to evoke British Empire, whetherit's true or not, who knows? But
just the information that kindof visual kind of like, oh, wow,
you know, right. And around thatsame time. So if you kind of
like research, John D, who'ssignificantly involved in a

(28:46):
story and the narwhal horn thatFrobisher took, same time as
this piece of rock, it decidedto have gold in it, which didn't
have gold in it, which was thefirst gold mining fraud of the
of the Americas. At the sametime, Frobisher when he landed

(29:10):
in Bristol road to road toWindsor, gave the novice now
horn that that was recorded inGeorge brass journal, because
basically they found it. Theydid this test on whether it had
magical powers. So the sailorsdid a test on whether it had

(29:31):
magical powers by putting somespiders in the hole at the end.
And the spiders presently died.Therefore, it was magical. And
it's just really interesting.George Best records is a very is
a very in depth accounts of thisstory, obviously, through the

(29:53):
lens of his being nurse withinit, which was the kind of
purpose position the silence thesilence There's no voices from
them there's no songs from them.There's no the mind is a silent
there's no there's no so wedon't know what their songs what
their stories were at allobviously we know the higher
right kind of people on thatjourney exploitation journey and

(30:19):
so anyway so then so so inrelation to going back to kind
of talking about how we kind ofexperienced that story in that
object the novel because thenovel One was placed into
Elizabeth the first Crown JewelsIt was that kind of it was one
of the most wealthy things youcould have. And all the royalty

(30:43):
of your had some form of novelrelationship. Now, all home was
about protection, about powerabout potency. About Yeah, all
sorts of things. It was ingestedto protect from poisoning, it
was held to as symbols of power.It was used as, you know, all

(31:04):
sorts of kind of magic ifopener, so basically, Angela
were like, okay, there was thiscompany on eBay who sold what
can our phones, we brought oneRoku along the way came in,
worked at my house broken intoso then we had to get we got in

(31:25):
touch with Lisa scantlebury.Really, artists modelmaker based
at Spike Island. And then shekind of fixed it, and then we
went and, and then we decided torecast the novel horn as forms
of kind of magic, we making thecasting, you know, recast it and
then pushed it back out ontoeBay as an object that people

(31:49):
could buy. So it's this kind oflike, shady, kind of like, you
know, little sort of eBay run,you know, recasting the V kind
of monetizing that, then we kindof did it in this way, where we
wanted to work with cada footsociety performing arts group

(32:11):
based in callate, who we metmany of the performing artists
and directors of that wecurrently plan to set up a
performing arts centre. Andthat's been fundraising. So then
we decided, like, we had thiskind of real sort of noodle
around how much would we kind oflike sell this novel home for

(32:32):
you know, we ended up with 77pounds and 98 Pence, we're
trying to do something aboutdates and on the rage, you know,
just mucking around with it. Andto our surprise, people brought
it endlessly, it was just like,oh my god, people, there's no
such thing as brought them on.Okay. And you know, so at the

(32:54):
moment, the site's down thatdemand this not this replica,
replica replica normal was quitehigh at the same time, it
enabled us to then syphon moneyoff from that sale to catch up
with society. So then the peoplethat bought the narwhal home
would also get a certificate,showing that their the money
that they use for the novelhomes gone towards this art

(33:16):
centre. So we'd liked that, thatkind of not naughty, kind of
weird. And then we put wrappedround just like a xerox copy of
George bests account of thismagical test that the sailors
did. Just wrapped it round itwith plastic bag, plastic,

(33:37):
elastic band rounds, peoplecould read that. And then we had
some suggestions on how it couldbe used and recasting them now
one came another object calledour separator. Or maybe I'll
pass over to Angela, because

what we really liked was how these contemporary
exchanges related to thesehistories. So that sense of
certification, so which really,which spoke to the sort of
shareholders of the of theNorthwest Passage, you know, the
cattails company that was set upto go on this colonial

(34:17):
expedition from 1576 to 78. Youknow, there were shareholders,
they were defrauded, theyreceived certificates, which
were inauthentic. You know, allof these sort of different sorts
of stories of truthful things,and false things, all rendered
fictional through these kind ofweird, magical scientific
relationships. So I think that'swhat that's we're always keeping

(34:41):
in mind when we're when we'redoing this kind of work, which
is what connects it with thisnext piece of our sceptre where
we were working starting to workmore regularly with so we've
mentioned Janet pitsee LikeBrewster before, so she was the
artistic or Executive Directorof the Nunavut arts and crafts
so Association. And then shebecame Deputy Mayor of Iqaluit.

(35:05):
And she's now recently beenelected as an MLA, so a member
of the Legislative Assembly fornone of it. So she's gone from
being an artist to being apolitician, while always being
politically active as an artist.So she makes, she makes cast wax
heads of women, particularly tocomment on and to intervene in

(35:28):
missing and murdered indigenouswomen in Canada. So she'll take
these heads to different kindsof political meetings to in
order to presents the lives ofthese women's to call for
action. So we're working morewith her. And then Kale was
saying, we should be workingwith Clear Lake who's the Deputy
Lord Mayor of Bristol for herperiod of time, I can't remember

(35:52):
where that started and stop butin the late 2010, so you're sort
of 2015 to 18, something likethat. And she's also an artist,
so she's a choreographer, sheworks with textiles. She has
mixed heritage, Ghanaian andBritish, I believe. So there's
that similar. So here we arefaced in this kind of
serendipitous position ofworking with all these women,

(36:14):
these women of mixed heritage.So Janet pity, like Brewster is
her grandfather, I think wasScottish. So she's also got this
slightly uneasy or a or a set ofrelationships that she's also
having to work through. And thenin this intersection between
politics and arts, which is likemagic and art. And so we got

(36:34):
together and we through a seriesof zoom meetings, we started to
work on well, what would it beto collaborate the four of us to
make an object that couldpotentially catalyse new,
shorter shore relations, whatwould a kind of speculative

(36:54):
future anti racist decolonialfeminist object look like? That
we could make in the knowledgethat of course, all of those
things are also impossible. Wecan't, the four of us can't
decolonize the world, we also wewill continue to struggle with
all sorts of complex issuesaround racism and oppressive

(37:17):
oppression and discrimination. Imean, think what care you were
talking about with with languageand the sound of language is so
interesting how kale you aresort of seen as as a colonial
oppressor. And my voice is heardby people in Canada as English.
So you know, Janet was saying,in both of you sound, English,

(37:38):
which is just if to a person inBritain would sound crazy that I
would sound English, but that'show I read. So there's just all
these. It's code switching, it'sunstable ground. And that's the
sort of the place that we'reoccupying. So taking using the
norwall horn as the startingpoint, then, what were the kinds

(37:58):
of objects or actions that eachof the four of us could
contribute? That would thenconnect with this narwhal horn.
So we're going to be creatingdifferent sort of connector
objects that would tie in thesedifferent material objects
basically to create a five, afive sectioned sceptre, like you

(38:20):
have a sceptre to openparliament. So off the narwhal
horn will be four differentobjects. Mine involves sort of
making basketry out a videotape.So with my interest in moving
image and my interest in sort ofan early documentary, this part
of the world was the site of oneof the earliest documentary so

(38:41):
Robert Flaherty's Nanook of theNorth. And Canada's indigenous
people have been the subject ofso many documentaries throughout
the late 19th and early 20thcenturies. So I was interested
in just in working with film andvideotape as a material around
that and thinking throughbasketry as well. Hale What was

(39:04):
your

Yeah, it's really into the eye of the needle, the
idea that the needle I and howit sort of symbolises so many
different kind of things for me,like, you know, the kind of
typical saying getting throughthe eye of the needle, you know,
and women's, essentially women'spractices of, of making

(39:31):
practices that are almostubiquitous, so they kind of
translate and transcend a lot ofdifferences. Obviously,
differences within that, butthere is a place there is a
place to meet through the needleas far as like riffing on so

(39:52):
yeah, that was and I mean theidea of making this
collaborative sculpture, objectwork, sceptre Being five pointed
to kind of the chaos of thatmaking has been, like
fascinating. And, and it's stillongoing. I mean, we've we're
kind of like at a standstill,I'd say. But we'll see what

(40:20):
comes out the other end. So thisidea of kind of, like the
speculative future, kind of,it's almost like for me, it's
almost like a science fictionobject. It's an object of hope
as well, that, like that. Andalso, it's a very practical
object. It symbolises workingpractices and current kind of

(40:42):
political structures that holdand have many voices on doing
the seats of power, which, whichis a very kind of every daily
life kind of piece, in a way.But it was, it is by piece

(41:04):
because there's, there's four ofus. All quite diverse, diverse
and are practising in ourpractices and our making
sensibilities. And then there'sthe nonhuman the novel, that on
the voice that, you know, thevoice of the of the novel, which
is, is obviously very cool andessential, as well.

Janet's going to be contributing one of her cast
heads to this in particular, butand also pieces of treated
arctic char skin. So Janet workswith the different materials of
the far north, one of which isthe skin of an arctic char,
which is a bit like a salmon.And you can cure it and turn it

(41:57):
into a kind of leather. And shecolours it and also it so that's
that's going to be woven intoit. And then Cleo is
contributing choreography. Sowe're also really interested in
and we have been invitinginstructions from collaborators.
So in terms of what do we dowith this sceptre? Clear is sort

(42:19):
of starting us off with a seriesof movements and actions that we
can do with the sceptre, bothhere in the UK, but then
eventually sending that over toIqaluit so that we could have so
that we can mirror actionsacross the two on the two
shores.

You mentioned a bit earlier on about having
worked with some people in theForest of Dean. And I'm
interested in how the work wassort of engaged with or not
there, or what what came up fromthat?

Y es, so we got in touch with Elaine Morman

(43:21):
so I'll do my best. I don't havethe full credit. But yeah, I'll
do my best. So Free miner. Sothe, I can't remember when free
mining kind of decree took placewhere it's, it's a kind of
status that anybody born withina certain radius of the Forest

(43:42):
of Dean has a right to mineminerals and Earth Resources
from the land. And any man, anyman of a certain age had that
right to be named as a freeminer. And to mined the land
within the home of the forestdays is incredibly interesting.
And I haven't explained it indepth enough, please go and find

(44:06):
out more. So we were fascinatedby this, the status of the free
minor especially in relation tohow much independence they had,
in quite an oppressive sort ofregime really. And that
originally, I think nine or 12,three minus work went from the
Forest of Dean to on this onthis voyage to the to the

(44:30):
Arctic, to to Nunavut, toColorado, and all survived came
back to was the dean continuedwith our practices. still
unknown. We don't know who theirancestors are anything but with
a bit of digging around I'm surewe'd find out so I will, we were
initially moved by this, andalso wanted to kind of contact

(44:55):
the free mining community. So I,after researching, I found out
that women were given the rightto become formally recognised as
free money. Women, children andfamilies, men, women, and
children were all minors. It wasjust like this kind of
found out she was the onlyregistered or free minor. And, Jonathon...
certificate that held the kindof male minor as the one that

(45:20):
had the status in a formalmanner. So we managed to find
Elaine and emailed her. And thenthrough that she got she told us
to get in touch with Jonathanright, her brother at Clearwell
caves. And this cave mining cavehas been in their family for

(45:40):
generations. So Elaine Todd hasthis amazing story that she can
remember one of her earliestmemories is of being lowered by
a bucket into the mind andpicking stuff up and mining. So
it's just like, oh, wow, that'sjust, that's just epic. And it's

(46:00):
so interesting. So we went tosee them. And it was quite
interesting, the conversationthat we had, because there was
lots of like, they they didn'tknow stuff that they knew,
obviously, which was was quiteinteresting with taking some of
their kind of story back andsaying, Look, this is what

(46:24):
happened. And and I thinkJonathan might actually go on to
kind of make that more specificon on the clear, well paid
website, that Elaine, basically,we spent a day with her, told
the story in a very sort of overa cup of tea sandwich kind of
way. Which we hope that she willthen come to Bristol, and see

(46:49):
the work. And there's otherthings that are going to develop
from that. Currently. Currently,the last thing that happened was
she sent a picture of herpickaxe, which is just stunning
pickups that she's always workedwith. And she told us this
process of trying to becomeformally recognised as a female

(47:14):
in the free free mining sites.And she said that she got
through the wording because it'sdated. Any Free Miners should be
male. So then that was thisamazing kind of who that. Oh,
wow. So she was just like, yeah,I could have, I could have not
wasted so much time because Icould have used this wording as

(47:39):
a way to get through. But thenher brother told me actually,
no, it's not like that. So itwas all this kind of like
throwing and throwing butthrough that an object. A brick
was produced this Brooke brickwhere she hasn't seen how she
said it. No, I sent her apicture of it. That is

(48:02):
embroidered the word shirt onit. It's a bit like a Presto
boots. But can you remember likeembroidery tapestry that has
wrapped around bricks to keepdoors open. I've got this kind
of weird memory. Funny Littlepractice on the practice of
tapestry wrapped around bricksfor doors to be opened with. So

(48:26):
that's what came out of thatsubject with this tapestry.
tapestry thread. It's got theword shirt and I was fascinated
by this sweatshirt because it'sa bit like an either needle just
kind of like get through. Soyeah, so that was this kind of
ongoing conversation. And I'mnot really sure. I mean a lane

(48:51):
turnout, mind Earth pigments,Ochres, so purple, yellow, and
red. As she told us this amazingstory of one of her largest
commission was from the BritishArmy for the tanks going up. She
provided the earth pigments forthose times to be painted. That

(49:11):
was just like going out that'sjust mental. And why I mean like
so specific to like that well.It's just so strange. How our
work has received so far I thinkthey were really pleased that we
took the time to come and reallykind of find out and we want to

(49:32):
kind of go on to do to make akind of portrait of Elaine's
pickaxe because this has itsshe's retired now. And this was
her tall. It's really simpletool. And then Jonathan, when we
went to see Clearwell, caves,got all his kind of objects out.
One of them was this amazing hatthat had been found down in the

(49:57):
mind. And it was so beautifulpaper. It was laughing as like
holding an eggshell but it'sit's really old felt hat like
mine. Was that so then he wasreally interested in the
Monmouth cap that Angela hasbeen making in relation to which
is entangled in so manyhistories and whatnot. So I

(50:21):
think that So, so far curiositywhat's been received with
curiosity, and we are lookingforward to seeing what comes
next when hopefully because andgenerosity you know, Elaine was
very generous with her time. Wetalked about certain things we
have no idea about, you know, wewent back to find out about

(50:45):
basket. So this is anotherobject which has just recently
been developed through a basketmaker and Nora Kennedy, who's in
Stroud. But the basket free,free minors basket was found on
cod Long Island in thepermafrost. And it turned out
that Angela, one of Angela'sfriends during her student days

(51:10):
was one of the people thatexcavated it. So what was her
please?
Yeah,
name? So?

So Alison, Alison Bain. So I met Alison in
Sheffield, when I did an MA inarchaeology. And she was doing
an MSc. She's also from Canada,and we met in Sheffield. And
then she went back to Canada.And the next thing I heard was
in this project that she was oneof the excavators on Catalina

(51:38):
Island, who had actuallyuncovered this basket. So I
think it's also why this storyis really, it's so 10 tacular,
it's a really difficult story totell, because there is it's,
there are so many complexintersections and serendipities.
But like the story itself in thepast, it also mixes magic and

(52:00):
science and art, because allthese things happen as though
they were ordained as thoughwe're sitting within some kind
of science fiction story. And italso, every time we sort of
tried to tell the story of justone object, it goes out in so
many different directions, whichof course is the same for any

(52:21):
object biography, whether you'retelling the story of a frisbee
or anything else. But I thinkthe project what the what we're
trying to manifest are the sortof deep time intersections and
those global connections andhow, how the specificities of
like a basket or a bit of ochrein the Forest of Dean connects

(52:43):
us with these broad, muchbroader processes, and
relationships.

I wonder, just thinking about those like, like
you say, the sort of the magics.And if we include science
practices within sort of magic,and that, that a bit like, the
way you're speaking about thenarwhal horn, is those sorts of

(53:13):
magics become a sort of fetishthat further controls and is a
vehicle for, for maintainingpower, or for shifting balances
of power. And it feels likethere's something in what you're

(53:35):
doing the is also kind of movingaround, blowing away some of the
smoke and moving away some ofthe mirrors that to reveal some
truths. If you know, that'squite a heavy word, but some

(53:58):
truths behind things that havebeen interpreted as sort of
magics and wonders. De know,what would you think about in
relation to that?

Well, I'm speaking for myself, I can
definitely say that this projecthas revealed to me a lot of the
places of Bristol and theconnections that I didn't know
of before. And the ways ofrelating that can actually form

(54:43):
something meaningful on myterms, not on obviously, we've
got meaningful, different waysof feeling meaning and
belonging. So I think it'srevealed a kind of belongingness
through this practice. that. Andthen within our own, within the

(55:06):
kind of realm of the Associationof unknown shores, which is
incorporate many artists andtalk to many people, I feel as
if it has revealed differentkinds of moments are of how we
relate to each other and theplaces in which we are, don't
know how far that willtranslate. It'll be interesting

(55:30):
to see how it translates for theaudience's that see, see the
work at St. Stephen's church inNovember and Plymouth kind of
felt centre later in early nextyear. It certainly has revealed
much of the way in which I wantbetter, better beneficial ways

(55:56):
of kind of approaching artpractice and daily life. On my
scale of community, and I thinkit also, I mean, I'd like to
also talk about another objectlike the feather this feather
from Jaime Griffiss hat as whitelayer, as Frobisher white light,

(56:18):
she sent that to us and arrivedin the post, I was like, oh, I
want to open this at this localcafe that haven't been in ever
before. Let's go there. And thenmy friend, you stay, who often
comes along with me on on, on Isort of experimental sort of
days out trying to kind ofmaking kind of work in the
neighbourhood of Easton. Shecame along. And we went to this

(56:41):
cafe called Monte Carlo down ineastern on Stapleton road to
open this package and wanted toopen it somewhere that was
public, somewhere where otherpeople could see the package
being open somewhere that waslike a kind of a public space
that was kind of where peoplewould sort of like could see you

(57:01):
if they wanted to or not, youknow, I love kind of the
incidental witness. That's likea big part of work incidental
and ways of chaoticallydispersing information in this
way. It's really being part ofit through word of mouth, you
know, conversation, gossip, newmedia, and you know, anyway, so

(57:25):
I went to Monte Carlo and weopened it there. And we sort of
like got check into the peoplewho own the Monte Carlo cafe.
And then one of the guys said,look, go look at that guy. Look
at that black and white pictureof the Monte Carlo Cafe on
Stapleton road and I took acloser look at it. It's just
above our table. And it and Irealised that the cafe was the

(57:52):
colonial provision store. That'swhat's the name of the cafe it
was colonial division store.Wow. It's just this amazing
photograph that just blew mymind. And then sent me a new
stay into this kind of like realsort of like the kind of the
opening of the feather the hatcolonial provision store, then

(58:16):
going up over to what used to beknown as Colston Road, which
recently been renamed, toppled,toppled Avenue toppled road. I
mean, it's just been refuted onby some residents that we wanted
to go there and kind ofsignificant name, Mark. And we

(58:36):
use we use the further as we'rekind of brushing and evoking and
caring for these new site, thesekind of precarious sites, where
there's this massive transitionout of kind of, you know, kind
of old world into kind of thenew sort of rename or renaming

(58:59):
or reclaiming post Colston ofthese places. So yeah, it was
just like, in terms of how thataffects me in terms of social
relevance, affects the cafeowner, because I was like, Oh,
that we're doing this. And didyou know your he didn't know I,

(59:20):
he didn't know the cafe used tobe a clonal provision store. I
was just like, just throughreading a slide. Did you know
that this was this? And then hewas like, Oh, yeah. And now
there's this kind of like, oh,let's try to find out about what
that was and who. So I hope thatI feel like I've received a

(59:40):
wealth of kind of relevancethrough doing practising this
practice. And really curious tosee how the audience might
receive relevance through that Idon't I don't really know yet,
but I know that throughdistributing and colour
operating with other artists,Kathy hind as well, Kelly J.

(01:00:04):
Jones, Nora Kennedy who justrecently helped me make basket,
you know, so many people and inall this time we are dispersing
this story we're kind of dealingwith sending it out and it is
creating relevance and, and kindof work in this quiet sort of

(01:00:27):
well rhizome like, mycelium likekind of manner, which I find
exciting.

Sovay Berriman (01:00:38):
And then itself seems to have, like the ritual
magic practices use for it frombut from a cleansing or remaking
perspective.

Angela Piccini (01:00:57):
I mean, this is how it connects with your
project. So there really sothere is something about the
activation in the event of thelive conversation combined with
some form of collective makingmaterial making, and that, that
exchanged between hands ofdifferent kinds of materials,
and the specificity of that howthe stone generates a different

(01:01:21):
conversation to the narwhalhorn, which generates a
different conversation to thefeather. There's something about
weightiness and the actualmaterial of what we're working
with, that produces reallydifferent relationships and
different sorts of differentsorts of possibilities. And it
is absolutely that it's that itcarries through the

(01:01:43):
conversational mode, but withoutthe objects. That's a different
that's a different sort oflegacy, I suppose as well, it
does need it needs the objectsto really generate these new
spaces and times, it generates adifferent quality of a different
kind of temporal quality aswell. And a different sort of

(01:02:03):
relationship there is just theholding of a thing and the
passing of a thing of an objectfrom one person to the other
creates that different sense ofattention, a different quality
of attention.

Do you feel that that connects to for instance,
the pickaxe you mentioned andother sort of like the baskets,
you've spoken about other formsof hands making that might be
more around? Kind of autilitarian sort of very purpose

(01:02:42):
focused activity.

Kayle Brandon (01:02:48):
You can talk about the hydrophone because
it's a very purposed kind ofobject but has working with
Kathy hind on creating makinghydrophones for listening to
water before that, Angelo, Imade some hydrophones from
YouTube lesson you know, like weall do so many lessons in

(01:03:11):
YouTube these days. So but, butthat that initial first first
hydrophone thing that we madeback in 2009 18, develops into
was working with Cafe who's gotreally worked through her
practice, got this listeningpractice deep listening practice

(01:03:33):
and hydrophone making it areally practical object was so
unpractical, like listening towater, like, you know, and it
doesn't have that kind offunctioning in daily life thing
is something like the pickaxe orthe basket has sort of more kind
of, you're sensing objects ofsomething quite strange

(01:03:57):
underwater sounds, sounds of thewater picking up on sounds that
maybe they were the same five600 years ago. This is what
remains. This is like a clear,clear on nd sound connects that
time to now.

I'm just fascinated by everything that
you're talking about. Andthere's so many things that are
pinging off in my mind that I'mthinking I could just blab on
for ages now. But, but I won't.And I think what you've really
sort of nicely highlighted thereis like just in what you're

(01:04:41):
saying a moment ago, kale islike there's something about
perhaps then the art space inits wider sense that can perhaps
allow for this tenuous sort offinding out about something or
feeling around something?

Kayle Brandon (01:05:05):
Yes, definitely. I mean, it comes into then the
money, right? You have time tofind out, like, do you have the
money to find? And I guess, asworkers in different fields, we
all know that so I think we havebeen lucky enough we're not, you

(01:05:25):
know, not lucky enough we havemanaged to secure funding to
actually have the time to findout a little bit and yeah, I
just don't want to run thatoverly romanticise that, because
like, obviously, you know, timealso is a kind of privileged

(01:05:50):
thing in some senses that dothis is why I'm really
interested in objects that thencan generate income, because
more in the world of plumbingfor instance, so they you know,
your main, your bedrock incomes,now, how these objects can then
be re weaved into currenteconomies. How we can through

(01:06:15):
artists but also through othermeans, get by through this type
of thing, you know, how do wehow do we create kind of
financial possibilities thatenable all that finding out
anyway, that's going on toanother story.

Angela Piccini (01:06:38):
Although it's not right, it's it's the same
subject, right? You know, wewere talking about magic, but
Practical Magic is also aboutalchemy. It's about transforming
labour into other things, whichmay include money, which allows
people to thrive in differentways. And clearly this small
project cancelled or any numberof things but we have been, we

(01:07:00):
have been generating flows ofcapital in some interesting
ways. And we've we've Yeah, Ithink I think which raises
questions for the future.

Thank you. Thank you both so much, I'm vastly
appreciative morass.
Meur ras, a’gas goslowes, thankyou for listening. Further

(01:07:35):
episodes of the MESKLA | BrewyonDrudh podcast can be find on my
website Sovay berriman.co.uk.That's sovayberriman.co.uk Where

(01:07:59):
you also find guest'sbiographies and a resource page
of links to further reading onthe topics discussed. If you
feel inspired to join the MESKLAconversation about contemporary
Cornish cultural identity,please get in touch with me
Sovay Berriman. via my websiteor social media, you'll find

(01:08:20):
MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh onFacebook, Instagram, and
Twitter. The MESKLA | BrewyonDrudh podcast and project has
been made possible due to awealth of in-kind help and
support for many parties,including the Lowender Peran
festival. Gorsedh Kernow,Cornwall Council's Cornish

(01:08:44):
language office, Kowethas anyeth Kernewek, Cornwall
neighbourhoods for change andFalmouth University Falmouth
campus. The project has beensupported using public funding
by the National Lottery throughArts Council England, and
further funding has beengratefully received from

(01:09:05):
Historic England by RedruthUnlimited. Meur ras dhywgh
a'gas termyn, agas gweles. Thankyou for your time. See you
later.

All Episodes

MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh #7 - A Conversation About Art Working & Colonial Legacies, with Association of Unknown Shores

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh #7 - A Conversation About Art Working & Colonial Legacies, with Association of Unknown Shores