For this ninth podcast, I visit Cornwall based songwriter vocalist, choir leader, researcher and writer Angeline Morrison for a conversation at her home, with a small intervention from her cat, Ted. Angeline is actively concerned with raising awareness about the hidden historic black presence in the UK. And has recently released her acclaimed album, The Sorrow Songs, Folk Songs of Black British Experience on Topic Records. We join the conversation with Angeline about to tell us about her research for this album.
MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh (tr. Mussel Gathering | Precious Fragments) is a multi-platform project using sculpture-making and conversation to explore contemporary Cornish cultural identity. To find out more please visit www.sovayberriman.co.uk/MESKLA-Brewyon-Drudh. Through workshops, podcasts, a symposium and an exhibition the project invites people to share their experiences of identity and Cornwall, and their views on Cornish culture and its relationship to land, language, heritage, tourism, the Cornish diaspora and much more.
These podcasts record conversations between me, Sovay Berriman, and guests whose research or lived experienced touches on the project themes. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker’s own. All conversations are carried out with a spirit of generosity and openness, creating space for the discussions to twist and turn.
Govenek a'm beus hwi dhe omlowenhe goslowes orto/ I hope you enjoy listening
Please note: These podcasts were recorded in different locations and with a range of equipment. As such the sound quality varies and at times external factors are more present than ideal in the recordings. Resources: For a full list of resources and references for the project please visit https://sovayberriman.co.uk/MESKLA-Resources
https://museumofcornishlife.co.uk/2021/03/09/under-the-eves-evaristos-epitaph/
https://www.topicrecords.co.uk/2022/08/angeline-morrison-the-sorrow-songs-folk-songs-of-black-british-experience/
https://www.birchtreechoir.com
https://www.bghuk.com
https://cornwallartists.org/cornwall-artists/john-moody
http://remikapo.org/evaristo-muchovela/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sovay Berriman (00:00):
Dydh da ha dynnargh pub huni dhe bodkastow
MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh ostyesgenev, Sovay Berriman. Hello
(00:25):
and welcome everyone to theMESKLA | Brewyon Drudh podcasts,
hosted by me Sovay Berriman.MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh is a
multi platform project, usingsculpture making and
conversation to explorecontemporary Cornish cultural
identity. Through workshops,podcasts, a symposium, and an
(00:50):
exhibition. The project invitespeople to share their
experiences of identity andCornwall, and their views on
Cornish culture and itsrelationship to land, language,
heritage, tourism, the Cornishdiaspora, and much, much more.
These podcasts recordConversations with guests whose
(01:14):
research or lived experiencetouches on the project themes.
The views, thoughts and opinionsexpressed are the speaker's own.
All conversations are carriedout with a spirit of generosity
and openness, creating space forthe discussions to twist and
turn. And I'm very grateful toall who have taken part.
(01:39):
For this ninth podcast, I visitCornwall based songwriter
vocalist, choir leader,researcher and writer Angeline
Morrison for a conversation ather home, with a small
intervention from her cat.Angeline is actively concerned
with raising awareness about thehidden historic black presence
(02:02):
in the UK. And has recentlyreleased her acclaimed album,
The Sorrow Songs, Folk Songs ofBlack British Experience on
Topic Records. We join theconversation with Angeline about
to tell us about her researchfor this album.
Govenek a'm beus hwi dheomlowenhe goslowes orto. I hope
(02:28):
you enjoy listening
Hi, Angeline thank you so muchfor joining me for MESKLA
podcast, and for hosting me inyour cosy kitchen on this blowy
day, where we have a host ofchocolate and biscuits.
so much chocolate and so manybiscuits. Thank you for having
Angeline Morrison (02:44):
It's got
me over this lovely badge. Sothere's just given me a
beautiful enamel MESKLA badge.
Sovay Berriman (02:53):
Yes, we're base supporting our MESKLA badges, I
might take a photo of them forthe website. So Angelina, I
invited you to be part of myMESKLA podcast programme because
of your research project, which,did that begin in 2021 2020,
(03:16):
when you first told me about it,probably
Angeline Morrison (03:19):
2020. That was when the idea came for the
project.
Sovay Berriman (03:25):
And it has now become an album.
Angeline Morrison (03:28):
Yes.
So exciting. It's an album thatis going to be released on
October 7 On Topic Records,which is a total dream come
true. It's like the MotownRecords of folk music. And the
album is called The SorrowSongs, subtitle Folk Songs of
Black British Experience.
Sovay Berriman (03:48):
Cool. I'm just really excited about it. I can't
wait. I can't wait I've.Actually, I've already ordered
it, like top fan
Unknown (03:56):
Well there's two singles out at the moment that
you can stream and download. Ican tell you about those later
if you like. Yeah, let's talkabout
Sovay Berriman (04:08):
Well,
first, I would like you to ifyou wouldn't mind just, so one
of the things that I'minterested in is this sort of
term I use which, 'fracturedcultures' and this idea of
cultures becoming broken up,then how fragments of culture
(04:34):
come together. And it felt to mewhen you first told me about
your project and your researchfunding that you've got for it.
It felt I was super excited foryou anyway and about the whole
project, but also from a selfishperspective because I was like
brilliant. I'm really interestedin this subject. So perhaps you
(05:00):
could tell us a bit about theresearch you've been doing. And
sort of what led you to producethis work?
Angeline Morrison (05:07):
Yeah, happy to well, that the seeds of the
project were really sown a verylong time ago. Because I've
been, I've been a real lover ofEnglish folk song. And UK like
folk music in general, the focuson traditional music with these
islands of I've always loved it.And from going to folk clubs,
(05:32):
and as a sort of a older childand a teenager, I figured out
okay, this is where you go, ifyou want to hear the songs, and
people will sing andaccompanied, I absolutely love
unaccompanied singing, there'sjust something really magical
for me, about the unaccompaniedhuman voice, it feels so
immediate. And so raw, and andat the same time, it's earthy,
(05:55):
and it's there's also somethingethereal and kind of almost
disembodied about it, whichseems like a strange thing to
say about something that iscoming out of the human body.
But nevertheless, there is justsomething so alluring for me
about the unaccompanied voiceand, and all the cadences that
you get in traditional UK songsand music, the melodies, the
(06:20):
wonderful turns of phrase anduse of language, and the stories
and the emotive depths that someof these songs can take you to.
So loving all of that, I alsocouldn't help but notice that
there weren't any other blackpeople ever, in any of the clubs
(06:42):
that I went to. There were noblack performers on the stage,
and no other performers ofcolour either. Actually, it
wasn't just that there was anabsence of people from the
African diaspora it was thatthere was a general absence of
people of colour. And the sceneis extremely warm and friendly
(07:02):
and welcoming. So I just, Ithink it's really important for
me to say this, that I was nevermade to feel anything other than
welcome. And people in folkclubs are brilliant at welcoming
you, they love to see new peoplethere. And they, they love to
share their love of the musicwith other people who also love
the music. So that was never anissue. But the issue was that I
felt really like the odd one outalways, to the point where it
(07:28):
made me think Well, can I everreally be focusing, because the
other way, you know, as a childand a young person, you're
looking for people who remindyou of yourself in the areas
that you want to go into, youknow, I didn't used to think
that girls could be better,because whenever we took the cat
to the vet, the veterinary nursewas always female, and the
(07:49):
receptionist was always a womanat the various different
surgeries that we went to. Andthe vet was always a man, I
never saw a woman vet. So Ideduce from that as a child that
girls can't be best. And, youknow, children will will make
these conclusions. And I justnever thought that it was a
possibility for me to be a folksinger. However, however much I
(08:11):
love the music and however, manysongs I learned and think to
myself, and I began to thinkabout my own kind of
relationship to this music, andmy own feeling of belonging,
here and in these islands inEngland, in particular, where I
(08:31):
grew up. And the fact that assomeone who is I'm descended
from enslaved African people whowere trafficked to the
Caribbean, and I'm alsodescended from from white people
on one side of my family fromHebridean Scots. So my heritage
(08:55):
is mixed. And my experienceshave been those of blackness,
because of the because of theway I look, I, I look more black
than anything, and I'm veryhappy to identify as a black
woman and I sometimes describemyself as brown as well. But I'm
going to be off topic.
Sovay Berriman (09:19):
I think it's really valuable because anyway,
all these conversations arenonlinear. And it's important
context for for the work thatyou're making anyway, and this
project in particular. So Ithink it's really valuable and
(09:42):
generous of you to share. So
Angeline Morrison (09:43):
thank you. My favourite conversations are a
nonlinear one. That we've gotthat in common, hopefully
everybody listening or at leastsome of the people listening
will also be cool with that. SoI was always looking for people
like me in the songs and there'sthat is a song called the brown
girl. So traditional song, Imade a recording of it recently.
(10:05):
And I first heard this as a. Andwhen I was in my early teens,
and I heard Martin Carthysinging it but wonderful,
amazing, Martin Carthy. And he'dset it to a traditional tune
called Sweet kitty. And the songstarts off, I was brown is brown
from B, I have eyes black asslow. So it's really clear, this
(10:26):
girl has got dark skin and blackeyes and the general
interpretation that's alwaysalways always given for old
songs or old poems, or oldstories where somebody is this
is described as being brown orhaving brown skin. The
explanation is that this is awhite person who's been out in
(10:47):
the sun. So in the context ofthis song, the girl is rejected
by her false lover. And he's,he's really specific in the
rejection, he does like the, theancient equivalent of a text
dumping. So he said, he writes aletter from town, and he says, I
don't want anything to do withyou anymore, because you are so
brown. So he's highly specificabout the reasons that he's
(11:07):
dumping. He's gone to town, he'sgot ideas above his station, he
wants, he wants to unrefinedgirl with very pale skin,
because in terms of the everchanging standards of beauty
that were expected to live upto, at certain points in history
in England, for that to have awhite person with some tanned
(11:32):
skin was considered anattractive because it was
synonymous with being of a lowerclass or lower social standing
that you had to work and you hadto work outside. So you were
probably a member of labouringclasses. And that's generally
the way that this song isinterpreted. And, you know,
that's perfectly fair enough, itcould be right. But I wondered
(11:53):
if there was more to it, orthere might be more possible
explanations, and I tended tokeep this to myself for many
years, because people wouldalways contradict you that well,
there weren't any black peoplein this country. Before about
1948 before Windrush, this issuch a common misconception,
even now, I meet people, andsome of these people are very
learned, some of these peopleare like, scholars whose opinion
(12:15):
I would respect in other things.But um, but in this thing, they
will contradict me and say, no,no, you're mistaken. There were
no black people. And this issuch a, I'm so interested in the
fact that this misconceptionremains quite widespread, even
though there have been quite alot of publications about this.
(12:37):
And there's, there's beenrecently there have been TV
shows, and radio shows about thehistory of black people in these
islands, the history of blackmusic in Europe, there's so much
that you can find none, it's allin the public domain. None of
it's actually hidden. If youwant to find out about it, it's
there. But yet there is stillquite a, quite a widespread
(13:01):
level of of misconception amongother historic black presidents,
people seem to I see people, alot of people seem to see people
of the African diaspora inparticular, as as a recent
addition to UK, society andculture. And sometimes people
will make a concession andthey'll say, oh, yeah, well, you
know, there were slaves here,there were some people who would
(13:23):
bring their enslaved people tothese islands with them. And in
Cornwall, there are many houseswhere enslaved African people
were living with with the withthose who own them. And we have
photographs, photographicevidence of this from probably
the mid to late 19th centurywhen photography became, you
(13:46):
know, much more widespread. Butit's really important to
remember that there were threeblack people. There were free
black people in these islands,and not just in the port cities,
not just in the towns in thecountryside everywhere. We don't
really know too much aboutnumbers and concentration. But
(14:09):
there would have been, theywould absolutely have been vast
areas of the UK, where therewere no people of colour at all,
and where people would be bornand live and die and they would
never meet a person of colour.That's That's true, but they
were also they were also areaswhere there would have been, you
know, a significant number, asignificant minority of people
of colour. I mean, this is thetruth we have we have evidence
(14:32):
for this. I'm not making it up.If people are interested in
researching it, they can theinformation is right there.
Sovay Berriman (14:38):
It feels like there's a convenience, like I
use the term in sort of invertedcommas. Like narrative or story
being told there that is aboutquite, quite actually white
(14:58):
washing I agree. And, like, Idon't know, to what ends, but
yeah, it's it because it's notsimply about ignorance of
history is it? It's almost likequiter almost emotional sort of
(15:19):
denial.
Angeline Morrison (15:20):
Well, there's there specific choices have been
made about which histories aretold. But it that way. And I
think that this is probably afeature of most histories, that
specific choices are made aboutwhat is told, and what is
retained. And what isconveniently forgotten or
(15:41):
considered not worthy ofrecording. And that may be for
any number of reasons. But thosewho are recording the histories
will will always be makingchoices about what they consider
to be important to keep and whatthey don't consider to be
important to keep. So yeah, likeI, I tend to try not to use the
term
(16:07):
because then you always say nopun intended. Yeah, yeah. isn't
appropriate term. That'sappropriate for what happened.
And yes, it's appropriate. So interms of the evolution and the
journey of, of my idea for thisalbum, that song, the Bronco was
really important. So Istructured a whole album of
(16:28):
traditional song around it,which which I released on May
Day of this year on May 1. Andthat song was so meaningful to
me, as a as a teenage folkybecause I really was the only
one. Certainly the only one thatI knew. I know now that I was
not absolutely not the only one.But at the time, I knew no other
(16:50):
black or brown voters of anyage, let alone teenage focus.
And so that song was someaningful to me, because it was
I described it as a talisman.And it really did have that kind
of magical significance, becauseI was able to imagine into that
song, a historic black heroine,or a heroine who at least was
(17:14):
brown, because she had a blackancestor, like she may not have
been, you know, the daughter oftwo displaced African people,
she may have had an Africangrandparents or great
grandparents or something, andwas considered to be brown with
eyes black or slow. Because ofthat maybe she was East Asian,
maybe she was South Asian, youknow, there are all sorts of
possibilities. But I just keptthat in my heart. And every time
(17:37):
I sang that song, I was singingthat the heroine, as this young
woman of colour, that she was inmy imagination. So I was able
to, to do my own restoring, andthat's a word I use for the
album. So work of restore, and Iwas able to do my own personal
restoring. And this was, beforeI had ever learned the truth
(18:00):
about the historic blackpresence in these islands. So
that kind of that song kept megoing before I learned the
truth. Learning the truth wasextraordinary. Learning the
truth, that, you know, I justkept thinking to myself, we do
belong here. We really do belonghere since Roman times. And
(18:25):
that's, I only say that becausethat's as far back as as records
go.
Sovay Berriman (18:32):
And you uncovered this, this truth,
these the evidence? Again, I usesort of advisedly, through the
period of research that youcarried out in the making of
this work.
Angeline Morrison (18:48):
Yes, yes, I did. I mean, I I came to I came
to a knowledge about thehistoric nature of the black
presence in these islands a fewyears before, actually. But it
was it was during, during theaftermath of George Floyd's
murder, that the ideas reallystarted to coalesce in my head
(19:10):
and I began to put everythingtogether. And I began to think
well, okay, there given the factthat I now know for certain that
black people and other people ofcolour, were living in these
islands alongside white peopleworking with them, not sometimes
working for them, sometimesbeing owned by them, but not
(19:32):
exclusively. And they werepresent. So why aren't there any
traditional songs that mentionedthem? So that was that was the
first thing I thought to myselfwhy don't we have given given
that we do have a history of of,you know, a black presence in
(19:52):
this country? Why do we not havea a body of folk song that is
the equivalent to the spirittours of America, and all the
African American folk songswhich are so powerful and so
important as a container forthat experience. And that kind
of can provide healing and canprovide a place to, to give
(20:15):
voice to things which are reallyunspeakable. Yeah, anything like
that. And so, of course, thereare, you know, there are not
exact equivalents. So, becauseof because of practical things
like climate, the plantationswhere you would have very big
(20:36):
populations of this havetrafficked and enslaved African
people, you could have those inplaces like the United States,
you couldn't have them in theUnited Kingdom, because we don't
have the climate to grow, thecrops and so on. So the
concentration of people ofcolour in these islands would
have been a lot smaller, andthese ancestors are likely to
(20:58):
have been more dispersed. So allof these things have an effect
on the common songs that theymight sing. But there is
absolutely no way that there'sno historic black music in these
islands, that's just not evenpossible. Humans, wherever they
go in the world. They createmusic, they bring music, they
share music. It's a human trait.So I, when I next get a moment,
(21:25):
I'm going to carry on with thisresearch. But I'm going to be
specifically looking for thehistoric black music of these
islands. Because this projectstarted out with my with exactly
that I was looking for thehistoric black folk music of
these islands. And what I wasable to find my research is
ongoing, I really clear aboutthis in my interviews, it's
(21:47):
ongoing, because I wanted to geton with the composition. So I've
had to take a bit of a breakfrom the research. But what I
was able to find what I had beenable to find so far is songs
with references to black people,but they're clearly not written
by black people, unless theywere, you know, commissioned
unless, you know, a blackbroadside writer perhaps was
(22:09):
was, you know, paid to composesomething like write a story
about this, you know, if you'rewriting to order, then you
can't, then you've got to writewhat you're told. But there is
no possible way that we do nothave the historic black folk
music. That is that belongs tothe UK.
Sovay Berriman (22:28):
So it's presence within records or archives or
whatever, is, again, comes downto those the sort of gatekeepers
of these records and archives.So who makes the choice of what,
what is saved? Or preserved? Andwhat isn't?
Angeline Morrison (22:47):
Yes, very much. So very much so and
archives and records or recordsare always very carefully. Gate
kept, and curated. And also, youknow, it's difficult, it's
difficult to search them aswell, because songs which are
authentically black origin, folksongs, may not reference
(23:10):
blackness at all. So a lot ofthese songs may survive, but
without any reference to thefact that they were of black
origin. Do you see what I mean,for example, a lot of the
spirituals and, and the secularAfrican American folk songs that
we have, they don't all makereference to to blackness or to
(23:30):
brown skin, or to any of thosethings, but yet they are folk
songs of black origin. So that'sone reason one possible reason
why it might be difficult tolocate them. But also the Yeah,
they may not have beencollected, they may not have
been considered worth recording,there are many, many possible
(23:53):
reasons. So when when many ofthe traditional songs that we
have now were collected in the,what's called the first folk
revival of the late 19th andearly 20th century, there was a
great sense of nationalisticpride England was, was known as
the land without some otherEuropean countries were very
(24:15):
proud of their singingtraditions and their traditional
music. And it was generallyconsidered that England did not
have a traditional music of itsown. And that point is really
difficult to imagine now,because everyone alive today is
I think, very aware of theEnglish folk tradition, even if
they're not, you know, really,like, plugged into the music and
(24:35):
engaged with it. And even ifthey're not interested in it,
they know it's there. They knowthat we have a really long
standing and fascinatingtradition of, of folk music and
folk song that's comparable withanywhere else in the world. But,
um, so at the time when, when,when the big collections were
(24:57):
happening the was definitely afeeling of creating a sense of
Englishness or finding findingthe songs which would then be a
signifier of the of that purityor that authentic notion of
Englishness.
Sovay Berriman (25:16):
I see. Yeah. And,
Angeline Morrison (25:19):
and there was also a sense that the, the, in
the first folk revival of thelate 19th, early 20th century,
there was a sense that the mostauthentic version of Englishness
would be found in the ruralpoor, the rural poor of England,
which will be the people whowould be the most the most pure,
(25:41):
the most kind of authentic,untainted by civilization, and
education. And all of thosethings close to nature, there
was all of these, all of theseideas were really popular in
culture at the time. So it's nocoincidence that the huge body
(26:03):
of some that we're lucky enoughto have and, you know, respect
to those collectors for findingand preserving those songs and
studying them and allowing us tohave them all. But it's really
important to remember that theywere collected in a particular
cultural context, and that hashad an effect.
Sovay Berriman (26:19):
So then thinking about authenticity, and sort of
rebuilding things, rebuildingstories that aren't, that
haven't been recorded or kept.Now, somebody else who's another
(26:41):
podcast guest is spoken aboutthe building of that it's
totally fine to build thingsfrom these fractured building,
you find the fractured sort ofmoments that we can collect,
because that's what might beleft from someone else having
(27:03):
fractured it. So that rebuildingand I sort of vision this as
like a rebuilding of a pot thatmight have some sort of broken
spaces in it, and then you couldperhaps make another bit of clay
or fill it in, you know. Andthat seems to me to be quite a
(27:27):
fair. A fair and I'm doing myown rambling now.
Angeline Morrison (27:34):
That's the focus on Yeah, I love that
analogy of the pot, I have beenthinking about all the ways that
we can piece back together thatwhich has been shattered over
the course of nearly 500 years.And, and that mending of pottery
mending is the metaphor that Icome back to all the time men
(27:55):
it's gonna be working mending.And when you watch spiders,
mending their webs, that'sreally that's really
instructive. I love that theytake something that's been
broken, and they remake it. Andit might be slightly wonky, but
it's a thing of beauty. And itwas remade with with loving
attention. And, and they justthe spider will just take as
long as it takes to do that. Todo that reworking in that
(28:17):
mending, just take as long as ittakes. Because if something has
been broken for nearly 500years, you you will not be able
to fix that thing instantly. Itwill take a really long time to
mend that. And you don't knowhow it will look when it's
mended, as well.
Sovay Berriman (28:35):
It's interesting thinking about the spider also
just in that going back to thissort of bodily moment, that
there's something about it seemsto me that that mending needing
to take place over a period oftime that spans some
(28:55):
generational bodies. With this,this Yeah, with elements perhaps
being a little bit fixed, andthen going back and fixing them
some more. Yeah,
Angeline Morrison (29:10):
yeah, that's lovely. I really like
Sovay Berriman (29:12):
that. And do you then, like another thing that
was spoken about I spoke aboutwith someone else recently was
around the nation ofresponsibility. So you're an
artist, you're a contemporaryartists in the 21st century. And
(29:34):
you're very good at it as well.You too. Then, do you feel a
sense of responsibility aboutmaking this work? I mean, it's
important for you as anindividual. It feels to me like
it's also a gift.
Angeline Morrison (29:54):
Yes. And I absolutely feel that it's and
all of those things that youSurgery is really important to
me personally. And it's nocoincidence that this work came
through me with my particularset of experiences. And my
particular relationship, both tomy enslaved African ancestors
(30:19):
and to my embodied life in theseislands, I feel like, I feel
like I have a notion ofresponsibility to my African
ancestors, I really do. And Ifeel that, as a descendant of
enslaved African people, I feellike I, I have a responsibility
(30:40):
to give voice to the truth ofthe presence of these ancestors
in these lands here, becausethat's a thing that that is very
present in discourses aboutrace, about belonging. And the,
(31:02):
there is an assumption that ifsomebody has brown skin, or
black skin, or if they look abit different in any way, that
they're present here in theseislands, they don't really
belong, or they must have comehere from somewhere, well,
everybody came here fromsomewhere, I mean, you'd have to
(31:24):
work very, very, very hard tofind someone at whatever they
look like, you would have towork really hard to find
somebody whose heritage is notmixed in some way. The history
of humanity is a history ofmovement around the globe for a
variant for various reasons. SoI'm really interested in that in
all of those notions about aboutbelonging and about land and
(31:47):
about presence. Because thatsuggestion, that if you have
black skin or brown skin, thenobviously you don't belong here
in these islands is somethingthat I'm I'm specifically
shining a light on, and, showingthat it isn't true.
Sovay Berriman (32:10):
And I wondered then about, there's something
there as well about the folktradition being very much
connected to rural situations,as well, and that rural, I think
that the sort of the gaze uponthe rural is one that paints it
(32:35):
much, as you described earlier,as this sort of white working
person on the land, sort ofpastoral with, you know, maybe a
beautiful working class maidenand tilling a field in the
corner.
Angeline Morrison (32:49):
Definitely the beautiful working class
maiden, she's got to be there.laughter.
Sovay Berriman (33:01):
laughter. dear'of'er, laughter, but that
that sort of there's so muchinvested in that picturesque I,
sort of ideal, again, invertedcommas, that has been sold for
now generations, there's acontinued investment in it.
(33:24):
Yeah. And linking to tourism abit here.
Angeline Morrison (33:31):
I was just thinking about the holiday
industry
Sovay Berriman (33:37):
Well, yeah, I mean, it seems to me that very
much sort of British ruraltourism is sold from the
nostalgia, a white nostalgiaperspective, this kind of false
reality of the rural being awhite space. And this is sort
(33:59):
of, again, inverted commas, liketraditional Britain, and
obviously, we're in Cornwall,and MESKLA is a project that's
looking at Cornish contemporaryidentity. And it feels that that
is very much the case, and aproblematic case, in Cornwall.
(34:20):
So yeah, the work that you'redoing is also very much
challenging, that specific viewas well, not only of these
islands in in its total, but ofthat rural experience and who
belongs within that ruralpicture.
Angeline Morrison (34:43):
Very much. Yes, my, my restorying is
absolutely about that, althoughnot all the songs are set in a
rura,l like narrative. But I wasI was really interested when you
were talking because that thatnotion is really powerful, that
notion of the rural, the soul ofa nation belonging to its rural
(35:07):
poor. It's so powerful that youeven hear people saying, you
know, if the if someone istalking about having gone on
holiday, for example, let's saythey went to Greece, I don't
know. And somebody might say tothem, oh, did you visit the real
Greece? Meaning? Did you juststay in cities? Or did you
actually go out to the ruralareas and see what it's really
(35:28):
like, and so that, to this day,there is I think, an
association. And it might beunconscious, but it's powerful.
And it persists, thatassociation of the rural
experience, anywhere you go inthe world being an authentic
experience, and the urbanexperience, which involves
technology and education, andthings like that. It's those
(35:50):
things are seen somehow as lessauthentic, and, and, you know,
an addition and unnecessaryaddition or things that take us
away from nature and away fromthe reality of who we are. Those
are those notions are reallypersistent. They, they didn't,
that those notions were notinvented by the folks on
(36:11):
collectors in the first folkrevival. But they did hook into
them, because those, thosephilosophies were very, very
powerful, particularly at thetime and and Cecil sharp, who
was one of the key collectorsand he collected, so very many
songs 1000s of songs hecollected personally. He was
very clear that he was lookingfor the soul of the English
(36:36):
people. He wanted songs whichrepresented the soul or the
truth, or how he did use theword soul. So you have all of
Englishness he was reallylooking for something that
embodied Englishness was, youknow, in modern parlance, we
might say that the folk songswere branded in a particular
(37:00):
way. And that, that thatbranding was very successful.
And, generally speaking, and Iinclude myself in this when
we've got when we've got aparticular agenda, and everybody
has an agenda, whatever we'redoing, everyone's got an agenda.
But generally speaking, we'renot aware of our agendas, or we,
or awareness of agenda is, issomething that you have to be
(37:24):
mindful of. I try my best to bemindful of it.
Sovay Berriman (37:26):
Yeah, I know what you mean, it's really
important
Angeline Morrison (37:31):
to be to be mindful. Yeah, but but the only
collectors of folk songs. Ithink they were very, very
heavily influenced by by thecultural turn at the time, which
was, you know, people in Englandparticularly were very hungry
(37:54):
for. For a body of song thatrepresented Englishness it was
really meaningful for them.
Sovay Berriman (38:00):
So this was late 19th century, early 20th
century.
Angeline Morrison (38:06):
Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, the way
people are really rude aboutEnglish cooking now. Yeah.
Sovay Berriman (38:13):
And, I mean, that was when the sort of Arts
and Crafts movement was sort ofcoming about as well. And again,
part of that sort of fetisharound the purity of hands
labour. And interestingly, atthe turn of the recent
millennium, we also had thissurge of sort of new interesting
(38:35):
kind of craft and hands making,and like knitting circles coming
about, again, you know, stitchand bitch or whatever. So I
suppose just thinking aboutwhere we are, where we are
based, we're based in Cornwall,D, you see, like, a relevance of
(38:59):
particular relevance to thiswork that you're doing or the
content of this research to?Cornish cultural identity, the
identity of people within como?
Angeline Morrison (39:14):
That's a very interesting question. For many
reasons, right. So I'm going tostart by explaining what the
album is doing. And then andthen I'm going to move on to
tell you something that happenedrecently on Twitter that has to
do with Cornwall and a couple ofthings to do with the album that
(39:35):
have to do with Cornwall. Sofirst of all, the sorrow songs
album is the work of restoring Iused that word earlier. I use it
specifically about this albumbecause the the true story of
black people living here hashas, you know, been forgotten or
written out or airbrushed out orwhatever. So I'm restoring But
(40:00):
the the real lives and partlyimagined lives also because
sometimes there isn't that muchdetail available. And as a
songwriter, you think arraign, Ican make some stuff up and
restoring them back into thefolk songs of these islands. So
I'm very, very aware, I can'twrite a folk song, I can write a
(40:24):
song in the folk style, butobviously, I'm writing brand new
songs, and I'm composing them.So I'm aware that I cannot write
a traditional song. But what Ican do is make a gift to the
folk community have a body ofsongs, which are about the
experiences and lives or real,real black historic characters
(40:46):
in these islands, I sayhistoric, there's a couple of
examples from the 20th century.So that's not too long ago. So
that's the purpose of the album.And you mentioned a gift before
and it is it's a it's a gift tomy ancestors. And it's also a
gift to the folk community now.That's the way I see it, that my
biggest dream for the album isthat people will want to sing
(41:07):
their songs and the ancestorswill be remembered. And
hopefully, I'll be doingsomething positive for the vote
community as well, becausethey'll have this you know, some
new songs to sing about subjectsubject matter and people who
weren't permitted previouslypresent themselves. Do you mind
if I let the cat in? He's
Sovay Berriman (41:25):
been Oh, no, please do.
Angeline Morrison (41:30):
Come on in TED. So that's the best. I want
to collect more.
Sovay Berriman (41:51):
Yeah, it's time to go out again.
Angeline Morrison (41:53):
He just wants to know that he's the most
important person in the house.Okay, so on Twitter about two
days or no more than about threedays ago, I saw a response to my
pinned tweet. It was very it wasvery interesting. Someone had
someone was was challenging the,the sort of worth wildness of
(42:14):
this project. Because topicrecords are described me as a
Cornwall based songwriter, whichis true, that's that's what I
am. So, so this person whotweeted was was questioning what
I could possibly have to say avalue about black British
experience from living in Gaulbecause this person said that in
(42:36):
there, and this was a blackperson who was tweeting, and
they said that the people thatthey knew who had moved to
Cornwall, so presumably thisperson's writing from elsewhere,
or Devon had done so in order toingratiate themselves with might
be I'm trying to rememberexactly what he said. And I was
(42:58):
really, I didn't know how torespond to this for ages. I
thought, Okay, well maybe I justdidn't understand this, this
person's notion that because Ibecause I live in Cornwall, it
must mean that because there areso few black people here. And
statistically Cornwall is themost has the highest percentage
(43:21):
of of white bodied people in thewhole of the UK. That's that's a
statistic. That's interesting.Yeah. So this person has some
black friends and they've movedto Devon and Cornwall. As far as
the tweeter is concerned, theydid that so that they could
ingratiate themselves with whitepeople and, or whatever. And I
(43:44):
thought I just I kind ofsomething about I didn't know
how to respond. In the end, Iwas I responded very factually,
with what the album is about.And I said there are two stories
from Cornwall on the island, therest of from elsewhere in the
UK, and Cornwall and this is,you know, the second part of my
(44:06):
response, I said, Cool, has avery interesting and often
hidden black history and that'sthe truth and people don't know
about it. People forget peopleremember that, Liverpool,
Bristol, Cardiff, London peopleare very aware of these cities
as big important internationalport cities. And so, people are
(44:29):
quite happy to accept that therewill be a black presence in
these places. So this is ahistory that has again, this is
a real and true history that isvery easy to find out about but
in terms of contemporaryconsciousness, people for Get
about that. People see Cornwallas this rural is ill, which is,
(44:51):
I guess part of the touristindustry myth. And people forget
about Cornwall as a county thathad two extremely active
international port cities andthe mining industry. They just
think about the, the ruralwhitespaces. It's very
interesting how this perceptionof Cornwall has overridden all
(45:12):
the other truths of Cornwall.Isn't that interesting? Just
want to think about the ruralwhite widow here. So that's
fascinating. So two of my two ofthe stories on on my album are
based in Cornwall as well onceCornwall and Isles of Scilly. I
decided not to write aboutJoseph Amedy, the famous
(45:34):
violinist for the simple reasonthat he's already I wouldn't say
he is well known. But in termsof Cornish black history, a lot
of people around the world knowabout Joseph's remedy. And I
wanted to see if I could writeabout people who are not well
known. That was one of thethings that I wanted to do. And
(45:57):
what's what's very interestingis I found quite a lot of
photographs of black people inCornwall, and we're talking
about, you know, probably 1850s1860s Maybe the road race
photographer JF moody, seem tophotograph quite a lot of black
people. They a lot of them havebeen identified as belonging to
(46:19):
the rose family. And the one whoI was particularly interested in
and there's a photograph of himI didn't get permission to use
this photograph on the album.But I just want to tell
everybody, if you Google c, youwill find a picture of the
actual man whom this story isabout. I wanted to use his his
(46:41):
picture so much on the album,but I just couldn't get the
permission. But he'sphotographed by JF Moody of
Redruth. And the story is what'sso extraordinary about his story
is that he was owned by aCornish man named Thomas John's.
And he was a minor, ThomasJohn's was not one of the
(47:02):
wealthy elite at all. He was aregular guy who worked very,
very hard as a copper and tinminer saved his money. And he
went to Brazil, where he boughta seven year old African boy who
had been trafficked fromMozambique, and that was Everest
in whichever and they they livedtogether for many years in
(47:25):
Brazil. We don't really knowanything about that chapter of
their history, but it seems fromwhat little we do know that
Thomas John's treated everysandwich Avella Well, it seems
that even though he was hislegal owner, which is highly
problematic, even though hepurchased a seven year old boy
(47:46):
highly problematic, but he doesseem to have been kind to him.
So what we know is that Evaristowas given a choice. By this
time, Thomas John's was an olderman and Everest there was a
young man. So Thomas John'sbecame very unwell in Brazil and
he knew that he was going to dieand he wanted to die in
(48:09):
Cornwall. So he came over USterritories and he said, you can
come back with me to Cornwall,because I want to die there. Or
you can stay on in Brazil onyour own and I will give you
your freedom so he offered himhis freedom and Evaristo
apparently chose to come back toCornwall with his master. By
(48:31):
this point. It was no longerlegal to own an enslaved person
on UK soil. So he had to bereclassified as a servant. And
Evaristo looked after Thomaswent almost John's died, it will
before he died, I should say, hemade arrangements so that every
state would have somewhere tolive and could train as a
(48:53):
cabinet maker and he apparentlyhad his cabinet making shop in
Redruth. He ran his ownbusiness. And he was apparently,
you know, quite well liked inthe community. He died in 1868.
And he is buried in the samegrave as the man who owned him
buried together in the exactsame one drum cemetery. Isn't
(49:15):
that mind blowing?
Sovay Berriman (49:16):
It is. But there would be so much power, like
individual power in being taughtthese histories. Oh, from a
young age, imagine
Angeline Morrison (49:30):
how amazing it would be to have to know to
know your own history know thehistory of your people. Yeah,
yeah. In the land where youlive, how empowering would that
be for children exactlymeaningful for children. And I'm
very focused on children I do alot of singing work with with
children. I'm, I'm very devotedto singing with children,
(49:50):
helping them develop theirindividual voices and their
creativity. And you know youwhen you spend a lot of time
with children, and when youremember very clearly as it was
It means to be a child and howyou feel about things. You know,
there is no, there is no doubtof about how important this
knowledge is to young people andto tiny people is really
(50:13):
important. It shapes how youthink about yourself, it shapes
how you feel about yourself, Iwould have been so much more, I
would have felt so much moreconfident and assured really
deep down inside. If I had knownabout my black ancestors in the
UK, honestly, I would. Do youfeel the same way about about
(50:36):
Cornish history?
Sovay Berriman (50:43):
Not so much, I think. I, I what I feel is, if I
knew more of British history andCornish history, that I could, I
(51:04):
could have had the opportunityto challenge structures. Earlier
in my life, that may be a lotlike maybe I would have been
been living in a differentsociety, that that was perhaps
(51:24):
more balanced than the one inwhich we do live. It I was
another great podcast guest, whogrew up in Cornwall, and is a
woman of colour spake about wespoke about our relationship
(51:46):
with land. And I felt that agreat gift for me was growing up
in Cornwall in a place where Ifeel that I'm physically of the
land and it's within me. And shevery rightly and generously
pointed out that some of theexperience that she had had of
(52:11):
not being, of being questionedabout her right to that
belonging and place. And I'mvery so I am I'm quite mindful
of the privilege I have in that
Angeline Morrison (52:28):
yeah, you're very lucky to have that. You're
very lucky to have that becauseI've always felt a really strong
connection and relationship withland and nature. Particularly
the land here in these islands Ihave a real love for it. which
(52:49):
transcends and overrides all thetimes I've been told I don't
belong here. Wherever I go, I'mthere's a group called Black
Girls Hike which I'm a member ofwhich is specifically for women
of colour going walking in thecountryside because you get
funny looks people don't expectto see you them. People
associate you with cities orwith crime or whatever.
(53:16):
But you know what, the landdoesn't tell you to go home.
Land is very accepting. It's alot. I know many people of
colour who have the samerelationship with nature and
with land. Yeah. In terms ofcoolish, like history, or black
(53:39):
history call. There's so muchmore there than then people in
general are aware of. And, ofcourse, I include myself in
this. And one of the amazingthings that I learned which,
which really took me aback was Iwas talking to an expert on
(54:01):
Joseph, MD, who had spent a lotof time researching him. And it
turns out that Joseph Emedy waswitnessing his friend's wedding.
His friend was married in mychurch and his friend was also a
black man. And he was describedbecause because this is this is
one of one of the ways that wecan we can find, like people in
(54:21):
historic records is, is becausethey are sometimes described as
quote, Negro of the parish orsomething, but their blackness
is somehow referenced inofficial records. So this was a
wedding so it's referenced inofficial records. So Joseph,
somebody was present at thewedding of his friend, another
black man who was marrying awhite I believe Cornish woman.
(54:43):
There would have been childrenof colour in the local school
and maybe isn't that mindblowing? Yeah, so think about
how much more there is therethat we don't know about yet.
Totally. That's what is there.Yeah. Which I find out one of
these things, I think, oh my Mygoodness, like, there is so much
more here than we know, becausewe only know about the black
(55:05):
ancestors for whom there areconcrete records in some way.
There may have been so well,there will have been so very
many more who weren't recorded.When we think about all all the
people. And poor white peoplewho were not recorded, who went
through through their wholelives without ever being
officially recorded, becausethey were poor, or, or because
(55:28):
they couldn't write or for somany different reasons, people
who've been buried, and there'sno grave, and there's no record
that they were ever even there.So this is, this is the case.
Also, when you're looking forBlack History, you're looking
for people who often were notofficially recorded. And because
of that, we can know that therewill be so much more there than
(55:51):
than we know already.
Sovay Berriman (55:54):
So with coming to time, it's been lovely
speaking with you in this way.And thank you. So before we go,
I just wanted to touch back tothis notion of like
storytelling, and oral historiesand traditions. And I'm, I'm
neurodivergent in a fewdifferent ways, and we've spoken
(56:15):
about this. And I sometimes feelso for instance, in relation to
the Cornish language, I wouldlove to speak more Cornish, I
really struggle with learning alanguage in a sort of
traditional way that language istaught. Going through grammar
(56:37):
and such like, however, bypicking things up in more of
kind of casual, or awayconnecting it with perhaps
manual tasks. And just using theodd word here and there, I find
that really powerful. And Idon't necessarily have to
(56:58):
remember exact spellings, but Ican sort of feel it kind of
bodily. And that becomes part ofmy storytelling. And I become
sort of more confident as aslike in my cultural identity.
And then just linking that tolike, I came to the birch tree
(57:19):
folk choir with you for a while,which is wonderful. And what I
really loved about that is like,we had a conversation at that
time, about singing, who cansing who can't sing. And we
shared a feeling that everybodycan sing, people sang
(57:39):
differently. And I've got tosay, you know, I don't have a
joyous singing voice, but itbrings me great joy, and singing
in that space. And learning thatin in, in that space. You didn't
give a song sheets with words.You had us learning these. Or
(58:04):
really, and that they becamesort of body knowledge and
something about like that spaceis utterly joyful. And yeah, so
I wondered if you could just saya bit about that, as far as
connected to that faketradition. Maybe
Angeline Morrison (58:20):
yeah, that's, that's I'm so interested in
everything you say that and I'mso happy that you loved at the
choir, there will be more I willbe running more birch tree folk
choir sessions. So look out forthose. But yeah, I don't tend to
provide lyric sheets when I'mleading choirs are singing
workshops. And there's manyreasons for that. The main
(58:42):
reason is that people tend tolook down at the sheets, instead
of at the other people in thegroup or at me and I use, like I
use my hands when I'm teaching amelody to give an idea of the
intervals. So I really needpeople in the group to be
watching what my hands aredoing. One hand shows the
(59:04):
intervals of the melody one handshows the rhythm. And that's,
that's that's the way I teachso, so I do find that it tends
to kind of take people out ofthe space in a way obviously
they're right there andlistening but it's really
difficult if I got engaged withpeople's eyes. And second of
all, as you made reference tothe in terms of folk song,
(59:31):
there's a very powerful oraltradition and before before any
song is collected, it has a ithas a long history of having
been passed from person toperson already and already so it
becomes that body knowledge andso that's what I really wanted.
Want I wanted I want to keepgoing in terms of the birch tree
(59:52):
folk choir is to preserve thattradition of of, of exchanging
songs and stories orally and youlearn it in your body. It's very
interesting because I am alsoneurodivergent. But in different
ways I really like words of myfriends. So when I'm learning a
language, I like to be able tosee the word in my head. That
(01:00:15):
helps me to remember it. And itis it's very important, isn't it
for people who aren'tneurodivergent to remember that
your divergence is so varied andindividual. I like to see the
words in my head, I recentlystarted to learn Gallic, which
is the language of my dad'sfamily. And the last fluent
(01:00:38):
Gallic speaker was my greataunt, Mary, my dad's aunt, and
she was so lovely and reallyloving, I had a very special
relationship with her and sheused to sing to me and garlic
when I was very little. So it'sreally important for me to learn
that on on the other side, Ihave, I will never know where my
African ancestors came from. Iwill never know if they were
(01:01:00):
adopted, they were brutallytrafficked. I have no idea where
they came from, and I, I ampretty sure, there's no way for
me to find out, although I mightbe very tempted to one of those
DNA tests to know, but you saythis is why this is why I feel
so like almost envious ofpeople. People like you who have
(01:01:24):
a relationship to your Cornishidentity, which, first of all,
you know, you you, you can besure that you belong to this
land and this land belongs toyou. And also you have a
relationship to the language youcan trace it you know where your
family comes from. And for Yeah,from my enslaved ancestors, I, I
(01:01:47):
can't, I can't get anywhereclose to that knowledge. And
that is a really sorrowfulfeeling. which so many of us
share the people of the Africandiaspora who are descended from
enslaved ancestors, we we sharethis might not make sense, but
it doesn't need to, for me, it'sjust something that is my truth.
(01:02:10):
I feel really connected and asense of belonging, when I'm
with trees, or swimming in thesea or, or walking along a beach
or something, that's when I feelmost most connected to the life
of the world and to place it andit doesn't have to do with my
DNA. Actually, it has to do withit has to do with the accepting
(01:02:33):
nature of land of the land ofnature.
Sovay Berriman (01:02:38):
That's that's a really lovely experience to
have. And thank you for sharing.
Angeline Morrison (01:02:50):
Thank you for having me,
Sovay Berriman (01:02:52):
My pleasure.
Meur ras, a’gas goslowes, thank you for
Angeline Morrison (01:02:53):
it was lovely to chat with you.
listening. Further episodes ofthe MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh
podcast can be find on mywebsite Sovay berriman.co.uk.
That's sovayberriman.co.uk Whereyou also find guest's
(01:03:13):
biographies and a resource pageof links to further reading on
the topics discussed. If youfeel inspired to join the MESKLA
conversation about contemporaryCornish cultural identity,
please get in touch with meSovay Berriman. via my website
(01:03:37):
or social media, you'll findMESKLA | Brewyon Drudh on
Facebook, Instagram, andTwitter. The MESKLA | Brewyon
Drudh podcast and project hasbeen made possible due to a
wealth of in-kind help andsupport for many parties,
(01:03:59):
including the Lowender Peranfestival. Gorsedh Kernow,
Cornwall Council's Cornishlanguage office, Kowethas an
yeth Kernewek, CornwallNeighbourhoods for Change and
Falmouth University Falmouth Campus. The project has been
(01:04:21):
supported using public fundingby the National Lottery through
Arts Council England, andfurther funding has been
gratefully received fromHistoric England by Redruth
Unlimited. Meur ras dhywgha'gas termyn, agas gweles. Thank
(01:04:43):
you for your time. See you later.
Dydh da ha dynnargh pub huni dhe bodkastow
MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh ostyesgenev, Sovay Berriman. Hello
(00:25):
and welcome everyone to theMESKLA | Brewyon Drudh podcasts,
hosted by me Sovay Berriman.MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh is a
multi platform project, usingsculpture making and
conversation to explorecontemporary Cornish cultural
identity. Through workshops,podcasts, a symposium, and an
(00:50):
exhibition. The project invitespeople to share their
experiences of identity andCornwall, and their views on
Cornish culture and itsrelationship to land, language,
heritage, tourism, the Cornishdiaspora, and much, much more.
These podcasts recordConversations with guests whose
(01:14):
research or lived experiencetouches on the project themes.
The views, thoughts and opinionsexpressed are the speaker's own.
All conversations are carriedout with a spirit of generosity
and openness, creating space forthe discussions to twist and
turn. And I'm very grateful toall who have taken part.
(01:39):
For this ninth podcast, I visitCornwall based songwriter
vocalist, choir leader,researcher and writer Angeline
Morrison for a conversation ather home, with a small
intervention from her cat.Angeline is actively concerned
with raising awareness about thehidden historic black presence
(02:02):
in the UK. And has recentlyreleased her acclaimed album,
The Sorrow Songs, Folk Songs ofBlack British Experience on
Topic Records. We join theconversation with Angeline about
to tell us about her researchfor this album.
Govenek a'm beus hwi dheomlowenhe goslowes orto. I hope
(02:28):
you enjoy listening
Hi, Angeline thank you so muchfor joining me for MESKLA
podcast, and for hosting me inyour cosy kitchen on this blowy
day, where we have a host ofchocolate and biscuits.
so much chocolate and so manybiscuits. Thank you for having
Angeline Morrison (02:44):
It's got
me over this lovely badge. Sothere's just given me a
beautiful enamel MESKLA badge.
Sovay Berriman (02:53):
Yes, we're base supporting our MESKLA badges, I
might take a photo of them forthe website. So Angelina, I
invited you to be part of myMESKLA podcast programme because
of your research project, which,did that begin in 2021 2020,
(03:16):
when you first told me about it,probably
Angeline Morrison (03:19):
2020. That was when the idea came for the
project.
Sovay Berriman (03:25):
And it has now become an album.
Angeline Morrison (03:28):
Yes.
So exciting. It's an album thatis going to be released on
October 7 On Topic Records,which is a total dream come
true. It's like the MotownRecords of folk music. And the
album is called The SorrowSongs, subtitle Folk Songs of
Black British Experience.
Sovay Berriman (03:48):
Cool. I'm just really excited about it. I can't
wait. I can't wait I've.Actually, I've already ordered
it, like top fan
Unknown (03:56):
Well there's two singles out at the moment that
you can stream and download. Ican tell you about those later
if you like. Yeah, let's talkabout
Sovay Berriman (04:08):
Well,
first, I would like you to ifyou wouldn't mind just, so one
of the things that I'minterested in is this sort of
term I use which, 'fracturedcultures' and this idea of
cultures becoming broken up,then how fragments of culture
(04:34):
come together. And it felt to mewhen you first told me about
your project and your researchfunding that you've got for it.
It felt I was super excited foryou anyway and about the whole
project, but also from a selfishperspective because I was like
brilliant. I'm really interestedin this subject. So perhaps you
(05:00):
could tell us a bit about theresearch you've been doing. And
sort of what led you to producethis work?
Angeline Morrison (05:07):
Yeah, happy to well, that the seeds of the
project were really sown a verylong time ago. Because I've
been, I've been a real lover ofEnglish folk song. And UK like
folk music in general, the focuson traditional music with these
islands of I've always loved it.And from going to folk clubs,
(05:32):
and as a sort of a older childand a teenager, I figured out
okay, this is where you go, ifyou want to hear the songs, and
people will sing andaccompanied, I absolutely love
unaccompanied singing, there'sjust something really magical
for me, about the unaccompaniedhuman voice, it feels so
immediate. And so raw, and andat the same time, it's earthy,
(05:55):
and it's there's also somethingethereal and kind of almost
disembodied about it, whichseems like a strange thing to
say about something that iscoming out of the human body.
But nevertheless, there is justsomething so alluring for me
about the unaccompanied voiceand, and all the cadences that
you get in traditional UK songsand music, the melodies, the
(06:20):
wonderful turns of phrase anduse of language, and the stories
and the emotive depths that someof these songs can take you to.
So loving all of that, I alsocouldn't help but notice that
there weren't any other blackpeople ever, in any of the clubs
(06:42):
that I went to. There were noblack performers on the stage,
and no other performers ofcolour either. Actually, it
wasn't just that there was anabsence of people from the
African diaspora it was thatthere was a general absence of
people of colour. And the sceneis extremely warm and friendly
(07:02):
and welcoming. So I just, Ithink it's really important for
me to say this, that I was nevermade to feel anything other than
welcome. And people in folkclubs are brilliant at welcoming
you, they love to see new peoplethere. And they, they love to
share their love of the musicwith other people who also love
the music. So that was never anissue. But the issue was that I
felt really like the odd one outalways, to the point where it
(07:28):
made me think Well, can I everreally be focusing, because the
other way, you know, as a childand a young person, you're
looking for people who remindyou of yourself in the areas
that you want to go into, youknow, I didn't used to think
that girls could be better,because whenever we took the cat
to the vet, the veterinary nursewas always female, and the
(07:49):
receptionist was always a womanat the various different
surgeries that we went to. Andthe vet was always a man, I
never saw a woman vet. So Ideduce from that as a child that
girls can't be best. And, youknow, children will will make
these conclusions. And I justnever thought that it was a
possibility for me to be a folksinger. However, however much I
(08:11):
love the music and however, manysongs I learned and think to
myself, and I began to thinkabout my own kind of
relationship to this music, andmy own feeling of belonging,
here and in these islands inEngland, in particular, where I
(08:31):
grew up. And the fact that assomeone who is I'm descended
from enslaved African people whowere trafficked to the
Caribbean, and I'm alsodescended from from white people
on one side of my family fromHebridean Scots. So my heritage
(08:55):
is mixed. And my experienceshave been those of blackness,
because of the because of theway I look, I, I look more black
than anything, and I'm veryhappy to identify as a black
woman and I sometimes describemyself as brown as well. But I'm
going to be off topic.
Sovay Berriman (09:19):
I think it's really valuable because anyway,
all these conversations arenonlinear. And it's important
context for for the work thatyou're making anyway, and this
project in particular. So Ithink it's really valuable and
(09:42):
generous of you to share. So
Angeline Morrison (09:43):
thank you. My favourite conversations are a
nonlinear one. That we've gotthat in common, hopefully
everybody listening or at leastsome of the people listening
will also be cool with that. SoI was always looking for people
like me in the songs and there'sthat is a song called the brown
girl. So traditional song, Imade a recording of it recently.
(10:05):
And I first heard this as a. Andwhen I was in my early teens,
and I heard Martin Carthysinging it but wonderful,
amazing, Martin Carthy. And he'dset it to a traditional tune
called Sweet kitty. And the songstarts off, I was brown is brown
from B, I have eyes black asslow. So it's really clear, this
(10:26):
girl has got dark skin and blackeyes and the general
interpretation that's alwaysalways always given for old
songs or old poems, or oldstories where somebody is this
is described as being brown orhaving brown skin. The
explanation is that this is awhite person who's been out in
(10:47):
the sun. So in the context ofthis song, the girl is rejected
by her false lover. And he's,he's really specific in the
rejection, he does like the, theancient equivalent of a text
dumping. So he said, he writes aletter from town, and he says, I
don't want anything to do withyou anymore, because you are so
brown. So he's highly specificabout the reasons that he's
(11:07):
dumping. He's gone to town, he'sgot ideas above his station, he
wants, he wants to unrefinedgirl with very pale skin,
because in terms of the everchanging standards of beauty
that were expected to live upto, at certain points in history
in England, for that to have awhite person with some tanned
(11:32):
skin was considered anattractive because it was
synonymous with being of a lowerclass or lower social standing
that you had to work and you hadto work outside. So you were
probably a member of labouringclasses. And that's generally
the way that this song isinterpreted. And, you know,
that's perfectly fair enough, itcould be right. But I wondered
(11:53):
if there was more to it, orthere might be more possible
explanations, and I tended tokeep this to myself for many
years, because people wouldalways contradict you that well,
there weren't any black peoplein this country. Before about
1948 before Windrush, this issuch a common misconception,
even now, I meet people, andsome of these people are very
learned, some of these peopleare like, scholars whose opinion
(12:15):
I would respect in other things.But um, but in this thing, they
will contradict me and say, no,no, you're mistaken. There were
no black people. And this issuch a, I'm so interested in the
fact that this misconceptionremains quite widespread, even
though there have been quite alot of publications about this.
(12:37):
And there's, there's beenrecently there have been TV
shows, and radio shows about thehistory of black people in these
islands, the history of blackmusic in Europe, there's so much
that you can find none, it's allin the public domain. None of
it's actually hidden. If youwant to find out about it, it's
there. But yet there is stillquite a, quite a widespread
(13:01):
level of of misconception amongother historic black presidents,
people seem to I see people, alot of people seem to see people
of the African diaspora inparticular, as as a recent
addition to UK, society andculture. And sometimes people
will make a concession andthey'll say, oh, yeah, well, you
know, there were slaves here,there were some people who would
(13:23):
bring their enslaved people tothese islands with them. And in
Cornwall, there are many houseswhere enslaved African people
were living with with the withthose who own them. And we have
photographs, photographicevidence of this from probably
the mid to late 19th centurywhen photography became, you
(13:46):
know, much more widespread. Butit's really important to
remember that there were threeblack people. There were free
black people in these islands,and not just in the port cities,
not just in the towns in thecountryside everywhere. We don't
really know too much aboutnumbers and concentration. But
(14:09):
there would have been, theywould absolutely have been vast
areas of the UK, where therewere no people of colour at all,
and where people would be bornand live and die and they would
never meet a person of colour.That's That's true, but they
were also they were also areaswhere there would have been, you
know, a significant number, asignificant minority of people
of colour. I mean, this is thetruth we have we have evidence
(14:32):
for this. I'm not making it up.If people are interested in
researching it, they can theinformation is right there.
Sovay Berriman (14:38):
It feels like there's a convenience, like I
use the term in sort of invertedcommas. Like narrative or story
being told there that is aboutquite, quite actually white
(14:58):
washing I agree. And, like, Idon't know, to what ends, but
yeah, it's it because it's notsimply about ignorance of
history is it? It's almost likequiter almost emotional sort of
(15:19):
denial.
Angeline Morrison (15:20):
Well, there's there specific choices have been
made about which histories aretold. But it that way. And I
think that this is probably afeature of most histories, that
specific choices are made aboutwhat is told, and what is
retained. And what isconveniently forgotten or
(15:41):
considered not worthy ofrecording. And that may be for
any number of reasons. But thosewho are recording the histories
will will always be makingchoices about what they consider
to be important to keep and whatthey don't consider to be
important to keep. So yeah, likeI, I tend to try not to use the
term
(16:07):
because then you always say nopun intended. Yeah, yeah. isn't
appropriate term. That'sappropriate for what happened.
And yes, it's appropriate. So interms of the evolution and the
journey of, of my idea for thisalbum, that song, the Bronco was
really important. So Istructured a whole album of
(16:28):
traditional song around it,which which I released on May
Day of this year on May 1. Andthat song was so meaningful to
me, as a as a teenage folkybecause I really was the only
one. Certainly the only one thatI knew. I know now that I was
not absolutely not the only one.But at the time, I knew no other
(16:50):
black or brown voters of anyage, let alone teenage focus.
And so that song was someaningful to me, because it was
I described it as a talisman.And it really did have that kind
of magical significance, becauseI was able to imagine into that
song, a historic black heroine,or a heroine who at least was
(17:14):
brown, because she had a blackancestor, like she may not have
been, you know, the daughter oftwo displaced African people,
she may have had an Africangrandparents or great
grandparents or something, andwas considered to be brown with
eyes black or slow. Because ofthat maybe she was East Asian,
maybe she was South Asian, youknow, there are all sorts of
possibilities. But I just keptthat in my heart. And every time
(17:37):
I sang that song, I was singingthat the heroine, as this young
woman of colour, that she was inmy imagination. So I was able
to, to do my own restoring, andthat's a word I use for the
album. So work of restore, and Iwas able to do my own personal
restoring. And this was, beforeI had ever learned the truth
(18:00):
about the historic blackpresence in these islands. So
that kind of that song kept megoing before I learned the
truth. Learning the truth wasextraordinary. Learning the
truth, that, you know, I justkept thinking to myself, we do
belong here. We really do belonghere since Roman times. And
(18:25):
that's, I only say that becausethat's as far back as as records
go.
Sovay Berriman (18:32):
And you uncovered this, this truth,
these the evidence? Again, I usesort of advisedly, through the
period of research that youcarried out in the making of
this work.
Angeline Morrison (18:48):
Yes, yes, I did. I mean, I I came to I came
to a knowledge about thehistoric nature of the black
presence in these islands a fewyears before, actually. But it
was it was during, during theaftermath of George Floyd's
murder, that the ideas reallystarted to coalesce in my head
(19:10):
and I began to put everythingtogether. And I began to think
well, okay, there given the factthat I now know for certain that
black people and other people ofcolour, were living in these
islands alongside white peopleworking with them, not sometimes
working for them, sometimesbeing owned by them, but not
(19:32):
exclusively. And they werepresent. So why aren't there any
traditional songs that mentionedthem? So that was that was the
first thing I thought to myselfwhy don't we have given given
that we do have a history of of,you know, a black presence in
(19:52):
this country? Why do we not havea a body of folk song that is
the equivalent to the spirittours of America, and all the
African American folk songswhich are so powerful and so
important as a container forthat experience. And that kind
of can provide healing and canprovide a place to, to give
(20:15):
voice to things which are reallyunspeakable. Yeah, anything like
that. And so, of course, thereare, you know, there are not
exact equivalents. So, becauseof because of practical things
like climate, the plantationswhere you would have very big
(20:36):
populations of this havetrafficked and enslaved African
people, you could have those inplaces like the United States,
you couldn't have them in theUnited Kingdom, because we don't
have the climate to grow, thecrops and so on. So the
concentration of people ofcolour in these islands would
have been a lot smaller, andthese ancestors are likely to
(20:58):
have been more dispersed. So allof these things have an effect
on the common songs that theymight sing. But there is
absolutely no way that there'sno historic black music in these
islands, that's just not evenpossible. Humans, wherever they
go in the world. They createmusic, they bring music, they
share music. It's a human trait.So I, when I next get a moment,
(21:25):
I'm going to carry on with thisresearch. But I'm going to be
specifically looking for thehistoric black music of these
islands. Because this projectstarted out with my with exactly
that I was looking for thehistoric black folk music of
these islands. And what I wasable to find my research is
ongoing, I really clear aboutthis in my interviews, it's
(21:47):
ongoing, because I wanted to geton with the composition. So I've
had to take a bit of a breakfrom the research. But what I
was able to find what I had beenable to find so far is songs
with references to black people,but they're clearly not written
by black people, unless theywere, you know, commissioned
unless, you know, a blackbroadside writer perhaps was
(22:09):
was, you know, paid to composesomething like write a story
about this, you know, if you'rewriting to order, then you
can't, then you've got to writewhat you're told. But there is
no possible way that we do nothave the historic black folk
music. That is that belongs tothe UK.
Sovay Berriman (22:28):
So it's presence within records or archives or
whatever, is, again, comes downto those the sort of gatekeepers
of these records and archives.So who makes the choice of what,
what is saved? Or preserved? Andwhat isn't?
Angeline Morrison (22:47):
Yes, very much. So very much so and
archives and records or recordsare always very carefully. Gate
kept, and curated. And also, youknow, it's difficult, it's
difficult to search them aswell, because songs which are
authentically black origin, folksongs, may not reference
(23:10):
blackness at all. So a lot ofthese songs may survive, but
without any reference to thefact that they were of black
origin. Do you see what I mean,for example, a lot of the
spirituals and, and the secularAfrican American folk songs that
we have, they don't all makereference to to blackness or to
(23:30):
brown skin, or to any of thosethings, but yet they are folk
songs of black origin. So that'sone reason one possible reason
why it might be difficult tolocate them. But also the Yeah,
they may not have beencollected, they may not have
been considered worth recording,there are many, many possible
(23:53):
reasons. So when when many ofthe traditional songs that we
have now were collected in the,what's called the first folk
revival of the late 19th andearly 20th century, there was a
great sense of nationalisticpride England was, was known as
the land without some otherEuropean countries were very
(24:15):
proud of their singingtraditions and their traditional
music. And it was generallyconsidered that England did not
have a traditional music of itsown. And that point is really
difficult to imagine now,because everyone alive today is
I think, very aware of theEnglish folk tradition, even if
they're not, you know, really,like, plugged into the music and
(24:35):
engaged with it. And even ifthey're not interested in it,
they know it's there. They knowthat we have a really long
standing and fascinatingtradition of, of folk music and
folk song that's comparable withanywhere else in the world. But,
um, so at the time when, when,when the big collections were
(24:57):
happening the was definitely afeeling of creating a sense of
Englishness or finding findingthe songs which would then be a
signifier of the of that purityor that authentic notion of
Englishness.
Sovay Berriman (25:16):
I see. Yeah. And,
Angeline Morrison (25:19):
and there was also a sense that the, the, in
the first folk revival of thelate 19th, early 20th century,
there was a sense that the mostauthentic version of Englishness
would be found in the ruralpoor, the rural poor of England,
which will be the people whowould be the most the most pure,
(25:41):
the most kind of authentic,untainted by civilization, and
education. And all of thosethings close to nature, there
was all of these, all of theseideas were really popular in
culture at the time. So it's nocoincidence that the huge body
(26:03):
of some that we're lucky enoughto have and, you know, respect
to those collectors for findingand preserving those songs and
studying them and allowing us tohave them all. But it's really
important to remember that theywere collected in a particular
cultural context, and that hashad an effect.
Sovay Berriman (26:19):
So then thinking about authenticity, and sort of
rebuilding things, rebuildingstories that aren't, that
haven't been recorded or kept.Now, somebody else who's another
(26:41):
podcast guest is spoken aboutthe building of that it's
totally fine to build thingsfrom these fractured building,
you find the fractured sort ofmoments that we can collect,
because that's what might beleft from someone else having
(27:03):
fractured it. So that rebuildingand I sort of vision this as
like a rebuilding of a pot thatmight have some sort of broken
spaces in it, and then you couldperhaps make another bit of clay
or fill it in, you know. Andthat seems to me to be quite a
(27:27):
fair. A fair and I'm doing myown rambling now.
Angeline Morrison (27:34):
That's the focus on Yeah, I love that
analogy of the pot, I have beenthinking about all the ways that
we can piece back together thatwhich has been shattered over
the course of nearly 500 years.And, and that mending of pottery
mending is the metaphor that Icome back to all the time men
(27:55):
it's gonna be working mending.And when you watch spiders,
mending their webs, that'sreally that's really
instructive. I love that theytake something that's been
broken, and they remake it. Andit might be slightly wonky, but
it's a thing of beauty. And itwas remade with with loving
attention. And, and they justthe spider will just take as
long as it takes to do that. Todo that reworking in that
(28:17):
mending, just take as long as ittakes. Because if something has
been broken for nearly 500years, you you will not be able
to fix that thing instantly. Itwill take a really long time to
mend that. And you don't knowhow it will look when it's
mended, as well.
Sovay Berriman (28:35):
It's interesting thinking about the spider also
just in that going back to thissort of bodily moment, that
there's something about it seemsto me that that mending needing
to take place over a period oftime that spans some
(28:55):
generational bodies. With this,this Yeah, with elements perhaps
being a little bit fixed, andthen going back and fixing them
some more. Yeah,
Angeline Morrison (29:10):
yeah, that's lovely. I really like
Sovay Berriman (29:12):
that. And do you then, like another thing that
was spoken about I spoke aboutwith someone else recently was
around the nation ofresponsibility. So you're an
artist, you're a contemporaryartists in the 21st century. And
(29:34):
you're very good at it as well.You too. Then, do you feel a
sense of responsibility aboutmaking this work? I mean, it's
important for you as anindividual. It feels to me like
it's also a gift.
Angeline Morrison (29:54):
Yes. And I absolutely feel that it's and
all of those things that youSurgery is really important to
me personally. And it's nocoincidence that this work came
through me with my particularset of experiences. And my
particular relationship, both tomy enslaved African ancestors
(30:19):
and to my embodied life in theseislands, I feel like, I feel
like I have a notion ofresponsibility to my African
ancestors, I really do. And Ifeel that, as a descendant of
enslaved African people, I feellike I, I have a responsibility
(30:40):
to give voice to the truth ofthe presence of these ancestors
in these lands here, becausethat's a thing that that is very
present in discourses aboutrace, about belonging. And the,
(31:02):
there is an assumption that ifsomebody has brown skin, or
black skin, or if they look abit different in any way, that
they're present here in theseislands, they don't really
belong, or they must have comehere from somewhere, well,
everybody came here fromsomewhere, I mean, you'd have to
(31:24):
work very, very, very hard tofind someone at whatever they
look like, you would have towork really hard to find
somebody whose heritage is notmixed in some way. The history
of humanity is a history ofmovement around the globe for a
variant for various reasons. SoI'm really interested in that in
all of those notions about aboutbelonging and about land and
(31:47):
about presence. Because thatsuggestion, that if you have
black skin or brown skin, thenobviously you don't belong here
in these islands is somethingthat I'm I'm specifically
shining a light on, and, showingthat it isn't true.
Sovay Berriman (32:10):
And I wondered then about, there's something
there as well about the folktradition being very much
connected to rural situations,as well, and that rural, I think
that the sort of the gaze uponthe rural is one that paints it
(32:35):
much, as you described earlier,as this sort of white working
person on the land, sort ofpastoral with, you know, maybe a
beautiful working class maidenand tilling a field in the
corner.
Angeline Morrison (32:49):
Definitely the beautiful working class
maiden, she's got to be there.laughter.
Sovay Berriman (33:01):
laughter. dear'of'er, laughter, but that
that sort of there's so muchinvested in that picturesque I,
sort of ideal, again, invertedcommas, that has been sold for
now generations, there's acontinued investment in it.
(33:24):
Yeah. And linking to tourism abit here.
Angeline Morrison (33:31):
I was just thinking about the holiday
industry
Sovay Berriman (33:37):
Well, yeah, I mean, it seems to me that very
much sort of British ruraltourism is sold from the
nostalgia, a white nostalgiaperspective, this kind of false
reality of the rural being awhite space. And this is sort
(33:59):
of, again, inverted commas, liketraditional Britain, and
obviously, we're in Cornwall,and MESKLA is a project that's
looking at Cornish contemporaryidentity. And it feels that that
is very much the case, and aproblematic case, in Cornwall.
(34:20):
So yeah, the work that you'redoing is also very much
challenging, that specific viewas well, not only of these
islands in in its total, but ofthat rural experience and who
belongs within that ruralpicture.
Angeline Morrison (34:43):
Very much. Yes, my, my restorying is
absolutely about that, althoughnot all the songs are set in a
rura,l like narrative. But I wasI was really interested when you
were talking because that thatnotion is really powerful, that
notion of the rural, the soul ofa nation belonging to its rural
(35:07):
poor. It's so powerful that youeven hear people saying, you
know, if the if someone istalking about having gone on
holiday, for example, let's saythey went to Greece, I don't
know. And somebody might say tothem, oh, did you visit the real
Greece? Meaning? Did you juststay in cities? Or did you
actually go out to the ruralareas and see what it's really
(35:28):
like, and so that, to this day,there is I think, an
association. And it might beunconscious, but it's powerful.
And it persists, thatassociation of the rural
experience, anywhere you go inthe world being an authentic
experience, and the urbanexperience, which involves
technology and education, andthings like that. It's those
(35:50):
things are seen somehow as lessauthentic, and, and, you know,
an addition and unnecessaryaddition or things that take us
away from nature and away fromthe reality of who we are. Those
are those notions are reallypersistent. They, they didn't,
that those notions were notinvented by the folks on
(36:11):
collectors in the first folkrevival. But they did hook into
them, because those, thosephilosophies were very, very
powerful, particularly at thetime and and Cecil sharp, who
was one of the key collectorsand he collected, so very many
songs 1000s of songs hecollected personally. He was
very clear that he was lookingfor the soul of the English
(36:36):
people. He wanted songs whichrepresented the soul or the
truth, or how he did use theword soul. So you have all of
Englishness he was reallylooking for something that
embodied Englishness was, youknow, in modern parlance, we
might say that the folk songswere branded in a particular
(37:00):
way. And that, that thatbranding was very successful.
And, generally speaking, and Iinclude myself in this when
we've got when we've got aparticular agenda, and everybody
has an agenda, whatever we'redoing, everyone's got an agenda.
But generally speaking, we'renot aware of our agendas, or we,
or awareness of agenda is, issomething that you have to be
(37:24):
mindful of. I try my best to bemindful of it.
Sovay Berriman (37:26):
Yeah, I know what you mean, it's really
important
Angeline Morrison (37:31):
to be to be mindful. Yeah, but but the only
collectors of folk songs. Ithink they were very, very
heavily influenced by by thecultural turn at the time, which
was, you know, people in Englandparticularly were very hungry
(37:54):
for. For a body of song thatrepresented Englishness it was
really meaningful for them.
Sovay Berriman (38:00):
So this was late 19th century, early 20th
century.
Angeline Morrison (38:06):
Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, the way
people are really rude aboutEnglish cooking now. Yeah.
Sovay Berriman (38:13):
And, I mean, that was when the sort of Arts
and Crafts movement was sort ofcoming about as well. And again,
part of that sort of fetisharound the purity of hands
labour. And interestingly, atthe turn of the recent
millennium, we also had thissurge of sort of new interesting
(38:35):
kind of craft and hands making,and like knitting circles coming
about, again, you know, stitchand bitch or whatever. So I
suppose just thinking aboutwhere we are, where we are
based, we're based in Cornwall,D, you see, like, a relevance of
(38:59):
particular relevance to thiswork that you're doing or the
content of this research to?Cornish cultural identity, the
identity of people within como?
Angeline Morrison (39:14):
That's a very interesting question. For many
reasons, right. So I'm going tostart by explaining what the
album is doing. And then andthen I'm going to move on to
tell you something that happenedrecently on Twitter that has to
do with Cornwall and a couple ofthings to do with the album that
(39:35):
have to do with Cornwall. Sofirst of all, the sorrow songs
album is the work of restoring Iused that word earlier. I use it
specifically about this albumbecause the the true story of
black people living here hashas, you know, been forgotten or
written out or airbrushed out orwhatever. So I'm restoring But
(40:00):
the the real lives and partlyimagined lives also because
sometimes there isn't that muchdetail available. And as a
songwriter, you think arraign, Ican make some stuff up and
restoring them back into thefolk songs of these islands. So
I'm very, very aware, I can'twrite a folk song, I can write a
(40:24):
song in the folk style, butobviously, I'm writing brand new
songs, and I'm composing them.So I'm aware that I cannot write
a traditional song. But what Ican do is make a gift to the
folk community have a body ofsongs, which are about the
experiences and lives or real,real black historic characters
(40:46):
in these islands, I sayhistoric, there's a couple of
examples from the 20th century.So that's not too long ago. So
that's the purpose of the album.And you mentioned a gift before
and it is it's a it's a gift tomy ancestors. And it's also a
gift to the folk community now.That's the way I see it, that my
biggest dream for the album isthat people will want to sing
(41:07):
their songs and the ancestorswill be remembered. And
hopefully, I'll be doingsomething positive for the vote
community as well, becausethey'll have this you know, some
new songs to sing about subjectsubject matter and people who
weren't permitted previouslypresent themselves. Do you mind
if I let the cat in? He's
Sovay Berriman (41:25):
been Oh, no, please do.
Angeline Morrison (41:30):
Come on in TED. So that's the best. I want
to collect more.
Sovay Berriman (41:51):
Yeah, it's time to go out again.
Angeline Morrison (41:53):
He just wants to know that he's the most
important person in the house.Okay, so on Twitter about two
days or no more than about threedays ago, I saw a response to my
pinned tweet. It was very it wasvery interesting. Someone had
someone was was challenging the,the sort of worth wildness of
(42:14):
this project. Because topicrecords are described me as a
Cornwall based songwriter, whichis true, that's that's what I
am. So, so this person whotweeted was was questioning what
I could possibly have to say avalue about black British
experience from living in Gaulbecause this person said that in
(42:36):
there, and this was a blackperson who was tweeting, and
they said that the people thatthey knew who had moved to
Cornwall, so presumably thisperson's writing from elsewhere,
or Devon had done so in order toingratiate themselves with might
be I'm trying to rememberexactly what he said. And I was
(42:58):
really, I didn't know how torespond to this for ages. I
thought, Okay, well maybe I justdidn't understand this, this
person's notion that because Ibecause I live in Cornwall, it
must mean that because there areso few black people here. And
statistically Cornwall is themost has the highest percentage
(43:21):
of of white bodied people in thewhole of the UK. That's that's a
statistic. That's interesting.Yeah. So this person has some
black friends and they've movedto Devon and Cornwall. As far as
the tweeter is concerned, theydid that so that they could
ingratiate themselves with whitepeople and, or whatever. And I
(43:44):
thought I just I kind ofsomething about I didn't know
how to respond. In the end, Iwas I responded very factually,
with what the album is about.And I said there are two stories
from Cornwall on the island, therest of from elsewhere in the
UK, and Cornwall and this is,you know, the second part of my
(44:06):
response, I said, Cool, has avery interesting and often
hidden black history and that'sthe truth and people don't know
about it. People forget peopleremember that, Liverpool,
Bristol, Cardiff, London peopleare very aware of these cities
as big important internationalport cities. And so, people are
(44:29):
quite happy to accept that therewill be a black presence in
these places. So this is ahistory that has again, this is
a real and true history that isvery easy to find out about but
in terms of contemporaryconsciousness, people for Get
about that. People see Cornwallas this rural is ill, which is,
(44:51):
I guess part of the touristindustry myth. And people forget
about Cornwall as a county thathad two extremely active
international port cities andthe mining industry. They just
think about the, the ruralwhitespaces. It's very
interesting how this perceptionof Cornwall has overridden all
(45:12):
the other truths of Cornwall.Isn't that interesting? Just
want to think about the ruralwhite widow here. So that's
fascinating. So two of my two ofthe stories on on my album are
based in Cornwall as well onceCornwall and Isles of Scilly. I
decided not to write aboutJoseph Amedy, the famous
(45:34):
violinist for the simple reasonthat he's already I wouldn't say
he is well known. But in termsof Cornish black history, a lot
of people around the world knowabout Joseph's remedy. And I
wanted to see if I could writeabout people who are not well
known. That was one of thethings that I wanted to do. And
(45:57):
what's what's very interestingis I found quite a lot of
photographs of black people inCornwall, and we're talking
about, you know, probably 1850s1860s Maybe the road race
photographer JF moody, seem tophotograph quite a lot of black
people. They a lot of them havebeen identified as belonging to
(46:19):
the rose family. And the one whoI was particularly interested in
and there's a photograph of himI didn't get permission to use
this photograph on the album.But I just want to tell
everybody, if you Google c, youwill find a picture of the
actual man whom this story isabout. I wanted to use his his
(46:41):
picture so much on the album,but I just couldn't get the
permission. But he'sphotographed by JF Moody of
Redruth. And the story is what'sso extraordinary about his story
is that he was owned by aCornish man named Thomas John's.
And he was a minor, ThomasJohn's was not one of the
(47:02):
wealthy elite at all. He was aregular guy who worked very,
very hard as a copper and tinminer saved his money. And he
went to Brazil, where he boughta seven year old African boy who
had been trafficked fromMozambique, and that was Everest
in whichever and they they livedtogether for many years in
(47:25):
Brazil. We don't really knowanything about that chapter of
their history, but it seems fromwhat little we do know that
Thomas John's treated everysandwich Avella Well, it seems
that even though he was hislegal owner, which is highly
problematic, even though hepurchased a seven year old boy
(47:46):
highly problematic, but he doesseem to have been kind to him.
So what we know is that Evaristowas given a choice. By this
time, Thomas John's was an olderman and Everest there was a
young man. So Thomas John'sbecame very unwell in Brazil and
he knew that he was going to dieand he wanted to die in
(48:09):
Cornwall. So he came over USterritories and he said, you can
come back with me to Cornwall,because I want to die there. Or
you can stay on in Brazil onyour own and I will give you
your freedom so he offered himhis freedom and Evaristo
apparently chose to come back toCornwall with his master. By
(48:31):
this point. It was no longerlegal to own an enslaved person
on UK soil. So he had to bereclassified as a servant. And
Evaristo looked after Thomaswent almost John's died, it will
before he died, I should say, hemade arrangements so that every
state would have somewhere tolive and could train as a
(48:53):
cabinet maker and he apparentlyhad his cabinet making shop in
Redruth. He ran his ownbusiness. And he was apparently,
you know, quite well liked inthe community. He died in 1868.
And he is buried in the samegrave as the man who owned him
buried together in the exactsame one drum cemetery. Isn't
(49:15):
that mind blowing?
Sovay Berriman (49:16):
It is. But there would be so much power, like
individual power in being taughtthese histories. Oh, from a
young age, imagine
Angeline Morrison (49:30):
how amazing it would be to have to know to
know your own history know thehistory of your people. Yeah,
yeah. In the land where youlive, how empowering would that
be for children exactlymeaningful for children. And I'm
very focused on children I do alot of singing work with with
children. I'm, I'm very devotedto singing with children,
(49:50):
helping them develop theirindividual voices and their
creativity. And you know youwhen you spend a lot of time
with children, and when youremember very clearly as it was
It means to be a child and howyou feel about things. You know,
there is no, there is no doubtof about how important this
knowledge is to young people andto tiny people is really
(50:13):
important. It shapes how youthink about yourself, it shapes
how you feel about yourself, Iwould have been so much more, I
would have felt so much moreconfident and assured really
deep down inside. If I had knownabout my black ancestors in the
UK, honestly, I would. Do youfeel the same way about about
(50:36):
Cornish history?
Sovay Berriman (50:43):
Not so much, I think. I, I what I feel is, if I
knew more of British history andCornish history, that I could, I
(51:04):
could have had the opportunityto challenge structures. Earlier
in my life, that may be a lotlike maybe I would have been
been living in a differentsociety, that that was perhaps
(51:24):
more balanced than the one inwhich we do live. It I was
another great podcast guest, whogrew up in Cornwall, and is a
woman of colour spake about wespoke about our relationship
(51:46):
with land. And I felt that agreat gift for me was growing up
in Cornwall in a place where Ifeel that I'm physically of the
land and it's within me. And shevery rightly and generously
pointed out that some of theexperience that she had had of
(52:11):
not being, of being questionedabout her right to that
belonging and place. And I'mvery so I am I'm quite mindful
of the privilege I have in that
Angeline Morrison (52:28):
yeah, you're very lucky to have that. You're
very lucky to have that becauseI've always felt a really strong
connection and relationship withland and nature. Particularly
the land here in these islands Ihave a real love for it. which
(52:49):
transcends and overrides all thetimes I've been told I don't
belong here. Wherever I go, I'mthere's a group called Black
Girls Hike which I'm a member ofwhich is specifically for women
of colour going walking in thecountryside because you get
funny looks people don't expectto see you them. People
associate you with cities orwith crime or whatever.
(53:16):
But you know what, the landdoesn't tell you to go home.
Land is very accepting. It's alot. I know many people of
colour who have the samerelationship with nature and
with land. Yeah. In terms ofcoolish, like history, or black
(53:39):
history call. There's so muchmore there than then people in
general are aware of. And, ofcourse, I include myself in
this. And one of the amazingthings that I learned which,
which really took me aback was Iwas talking to an expert on
(54:01):
Joseph, MD, who had spent a lotof time researching him. And it
turns out that Joseph Emedy waswitnessing his friend's wedding.
His friend was married in mychurch and his friend was also a
black man. And he was describedbecause because this is this is
one of one of the ways that wecan we can find, like people in
(54:21):
historic records is, is becausethey are sometimes described as
quote, Negro of the parish orsomething, but their blackness
is somehow referenced inofficial records. So this was a
wedding so it's referenced inofficial records. So Joseph,
somebody was present at thewedding of his friend, another
black man who was marrying awhite I believe Cornish woman.
(54:43):
There would have been childrenof colour in the local school
and maybe isn't that mindblowing? Yeah, so think about
how much more there is therethat we don't know about yet.
Totally. That's what is there.Yeah. Which I find out one of
these things, I think, oh my Mygoodness, like, there is so much
more here than we know, becausewe only know about the black
(55:05):
ancestors for whom there areconcrete records in some way.
There may have been so well,there will have been so very
many more who weren't recorded.When we think about all all the
people. And poor white peoplewho were not recorded, who went
through through their wholelives without ever being
officially recorded, becausethey were poor, or, or because
(55:28):
they couldn't write or for somany different reasons, people
who've been buried, and there'sno grave, and there's no record
that they were ever even there.So this is, this is the case.
Also, when you're looking forBlack History, you're looking
for people who often were notofficially recorded. And because
of that, we can know that therewill be so much more there than
(55:51):
than we know already.
Sovay Berriman (55:54):
So with coming to time, it's been lovely
speaking with you in this way.And thank you. So before we go,
I just wanted to touch back tothis notion of like
storytelling, and oral historiesand traditions. And I'm, I'm
neurodivergent in a fewdifferent ways, and we've spoken
(56:15):
about this. And I sometimes feelso for instance, in relation to
the Cornish language, I wouldlove to speak more Cornish, I
really struggle with learning alanguage in a sort of
traditional way that language istaught. Going through grammar
(56:37):
and such like, however, bypicking things up in more of
kind of casual, or awayconnecting it with perhaps
manual tasks. And just using theodd word here and there, I find
that really powerful. And Idon't necessarily have to
(56:58):
remember exact spellings, but Ican sort of feel it kind of
bodily. And that becomes part ofmy storytelling. And I become
sort of more confident as aslike in my cultural identity.
And then just linking that tolike, I came to the birch tree
(57:19):
folk choir with you for a while,which is wonderful. And what I
really loved about that is like,we had a conversation at that
time, about singing, who cansing who can't sing. And we
shared a feeling that everybodycan sing, people sang
(57:39):
differently. And I've got tosay, you know, I don't have a
joyous singing voice, but itbrings me great joy, and singing
in that space. And learning thatin in, in that space. You didn't
give a song sheets with words.You had us learning these. Or
(58:04):
really, and that they becamesort of body knowledge and
something about like that spaceis utterly joyful. And yeah, so
I wondered if you could just saya bit about that, as far as
connected to that faketradition. Maybe
Angeline Morrison (58:20):
yeah, that's, that's I'm so interested in
everything you say that and I'mso happy that you loved at the
choir, there will be more I willbe running more birch tree folk
choir sessions. So look out forthose. But yeah, I don't tend to
provide lyric sheets when I'mleading choirs are singing
workshops. And there's manyreasons for that. The main
(58:42):
reason is that people tend tolook down at the sheets, instead
of at the other people in thegroup or at me and I use, like I
use my hands when I'm teaching amelody to give an idea of the
intervals. So I really needpeople in the group to be
watching what my hands aredoing. One hand shows the
(59:04):
intervals of the melody one handshows the rhythm. And that's,
that's that's the way I teachso, so I do find that it tends
to kind of take people out ofthe space in a way obviously
they're right there andlistening but it's really
difficult if I got engaged withpeople's eyes. And second of
all, as you made reference tothe in terms of folk song,
(59:31):
there's a very powerful oraltradition and before before any
song is collected, it has a ithas a long history of having
been passed from person toperson already and already so it
becomes that body knowledge andso that's what I really wanted.
Want I wanted I want to keepgoing in terms of the birch tree
(59:52):
folk choir is to preserve thattradition of of, of exchanging
songs and stories orally and youlearn it in your body. It's very
interesting because I am alsoneurodivergent. But in different
ways I really like words of myfriends. So when I'm learning a
language, I like to be able tosee the word in my head. That
(01:00:15):
helps me to remember it. And itis it's very important, isn't it
for people who aren'tneurodivergent to remember that
your divergence is so varied andindividual. I like to see the
words in my head, I recentlystarted to learn Gallic, which
is the language of my dad'sfamily. And the last fluent
(01:00:38):
Gallic speaker was my greataunt, Mary, my dad's aunt, and
she was so lovely and reallyloving, I had a very special
relationship with her and sheused to sing to me and garlic
when I was very little. So it'sreally important for me to learn
that on on the other side, Ihave, I will never know where my
African ancestors came from. Iwill never know if they were
(01:01:00):
adopted, they were brutallytrafficked. I have no idea where
they came from, and I, I ampretty sure, there's no way for
me to find out, although I mightbe very tempted to one of those
DNA tests to know, but you saythis is why this is why I feel
so like almost envious ofpeople. People like you who have
(01:01:24):
a relationship to your Cornishidentity, which, first of all,
you know, you you, you can besure that you belong to this
land and this land belongs toyou. And also you have a
relationship to the language youcan trace it you know where your
family comes from. And for Yeah,from my enslaved ancestors, I, I
(01:01:47):
can't, I can't get anywhereclose to that knowledge. And
that is a really sorrowfulfeeling. which so many of us
share the people of the Africandiaspora who are descended from
enslaved ancestors, we we sharethis might not make sense, but
it doesn't need to, for me, it'sjust something that is my truth.
(01:02:10):
I feel really connected and asense of belonging, when I'm
with trees, or swimming in thesea or, or walking along a beach
or something, that's when I feelmost most connected to the life
of the world and to place it andit doesn't have to do with my
DNA. Actually, it has to do withit has to do with the accepting
(01:02:33):
nature of land of the land ofnature.
Sovay Berriman (01:02:38):
That's that's a really lovely experience to
have. And thank you for sharing.
Angeline Morrison (01:02:50):
Thank you for having me,
Sovay Berriman (01:02:52):
My pleasure.
Meur ras, a’gas goslowes, thank you for
Angeline Morrison (01:02:53):
it was lovely to chat with you.
listening. Further episodes ofthe MESKLA | Brewyon Drudh
podcast can be find on mywebsite Sovay berriman.co.uk.
That's sovayberriman.co.uk Whereyou also find guest's
(01:03:13):
biographies and a resource pageof links to further reading on
the topics discussed. If youfeel inspired to join the MESKLA
conversation about contemporaryCornish cultural identity,
please get in touch with meSovay Berriman. via my website
(01:03:37):
or social media, you'll findMESKLA | Brewyon Drudh on
Facebook, Instagram, andTwitter. The MESKLA | Brewyon
Drudh podcast and project hasbeen made possible due to a
wealth of in-kind help andsupport for many parties,
(01:03:59):
including the Lowender Peranfestival. Gorsedh Kernow,
Cornwall Council's Cornishlanguage office, Kowethas an
yeth Kernewek, CornwallNeighbourhoods for Change and
Falmouth University Falmouth Campus. The project has been
(01:04:21):
supported using public fundingby the National Lottery through
Arts Council England, andfurther funding has been
gratefully received fromHistoric England by Redruth
Unlimited. Meur ras dhywgha'gas termyn, agas gweles. Thank
(01:04:43):
you for your time. See you later.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.