The Farming Trap

Dr. Josh Stout on 'The Farming Trap' - how farming led to disease, famine, war and slavery.

Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Today
is
Friday,
October
13th.
This
is
episode
five.
Hi,
Josh. 13 00:00:17,046 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Hi,
Eric.
How
you
doing?
So
I
am
going
to
talk
about
the
transition
to
farming
and
the
farming
trap
and
what
that
means.
But
we're
going
to
start
off
again
sort
of
where
we
left
off
last
time,
which
was

(00:30):
the
development
of
modern
humans
and
how
we
developed
abstract
thought
and
the
ability
to
make
advanced
tools,
and
that
this
coincided
with
art
and
probably
a
transition
to
what
we
would
call
modern
language
in
the
sense
of
being
able
to
convey
abstract

(00:51):
ideas.
So
we're
using
abstract
ideas
in
our
language.
We're
putting
them
on
the
walls
of
our
caves,
and
we're
using
them
to
understand
the
world
around
us
and
improve
our
technologies.
So
fishhooks
and
needles
that
I
talked
about
last
time.
So
all
of
this
is
happening
at
sort
of
the
end
of
the
middle
Stone
Age.
Middle
Palaeolithic

(01:11):
is
about
130,000
years
ago
in
a
period
called
the
Imean,
interglacial,
and
it
was
super
warm
then.
So
we're
in
the
middle
of
to
glacier
glacial
times
and
all
of
the
genes
that
had
sort
of
been
happening
all
over
Africa,
around
skulls,
the
beginning
of
Chin's,
these
language
genes,
they're
all
coming
together
and
mixing
because
the
population

(01:31):
is
doing
really,
really
well.
And
so
during
this
time,
all
of
these
characteristics
come
together
into
the
into
the
modern
human
with
a
with
a
round
forehead
and
a
chin
and
a
flat
face
and,
you
know,
a
smart
brain
with,
you
know,
thinking
thoughts
that
they
can
paint
on
the
walls.
All
of
this
is
happening
roughly

(01:51):
the
same
at
the
same
period
of
time.
And
then
stuff
gets
bad
and
the
glaciers
come
back.
And
this
is
a
colder
period
than
any
before.
Each
each
wave
of
glaciers
goes
further
and
is
colder
than
the
last
one. 319 00:02:02,926 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
we
had
been
we
had
been
making
steady
advances
both
both
in
our
physiology
as
well
as
in
social

(02:11):
group
dynamics.
Right.
Well,
this
is
a
and
then
we're
then
we're
slammed
by
a
new. 356 00:02:16,776 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
A
new
thing.
So
this
this
is
this
is
this
is. 368 00:02:18,666 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Ice
Age,
essentially. 372 00:02:19,956 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Yeah.
This
is
a
this
is
a
theme
in
our
history
that
things
are
good.
We
expand
our
populations
and
usually
associated
with
getting
colder.
Things
get
really
bad
and
it
gets
dry

(02:32):
and
and
we
have
to
change.
So
that
happened
the
first
time
when
we
went
on
the
Serengeti.
It
happened
a
second
time
when
the
the
ice
ages
started
2
million
years
ago
is
when
we
got
the
big
brains
and
then
it
happened
again
at
the
end
of
the
Indian
interglacial.
And
so
now
it
was
time
to
move
because
our
population
was
crashing.
We
we

(02:52):
were,
we
were
everyone
was
dying
because
there
was
there
was
no
water.
The
game
was
dying.
All
the
food
was
dying.
And
so
waves
started
to
leave
Africa
and
there
was
probably
multiple
waves
with
one
leaving
about
100,000
years
ago
that
brought
these
new
genes

(03:13):
the
abstract
thought
to
the
Neanderthals.
But
in
that
first
wave,
the
Neanderthals
won
and
the
humans
disappeared,
leaving
Neanderthals
with
a
few
new
capabilities.
So
you
start
seeing
Neanderthal
art
at
about
this
time,
you
see
handprints
on
the
walls.
So
there
definitely
seem
to
be
something
that
humans
had
invented
that
allowed
this
kind
of

(03:33):
abstract
approach
to
burials.
The
idea
of
of
of
thinking
about
the
world
outside
of
yourself,
not
purely
as,
you
know,
you
yourself,
but
you
know
what?
What
are
what
are
the
animals
I'm
chasing?
Can
I,
can
I
represent
them
in
some
way?
How
do
I
talk
about
them?
They
seem
to
have
now
left
Africa.

(03:53):
And
then
the
other
thing
they
got
was
some
of
the
human
mitochondria.
So
that's
how
we
know
this
is.
It
actually
happened.
We
can
find
human
mitochondria
in
the
Neanderthals,
but
all
the
humans
disappeared.
And
then
again
this
happened
again
around
60,000
years
ago. 680 00:04:06,486 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Now
we
were
at
this
point
Homo
sapiens. 689 00:04:08,976 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
We
were
Homo
sapiens
by
now.
Yeah.
So
certainly
we
had. 701 00:04:11,286 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Tried
once,
we
interbred
a
bit

(04:14):
and
then
just
couldn't
make
it. 714 00:04:15,666 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Couldn't
make
it.
Yeah.
And
so
then
we
tried
again
60,000
years
ago
and
our
populations
right
now
are
at
the
lowest
point
ever.
So
Homo
sapiens
has
been
reduced
to
almost
nothing.
There
is,
you
know,
maybe
a
few
hundred
thousand
of
us
in
total
and
60,000
of
us
over
a
period
of
probably
a
couple
thousand
years
managed

(04:34):
to
leave
Africa,
interestingly,
you
know,
through
through
the
Middle
East.
So,
you
know,
Egypt,
Israel,
Oman,
Saudi
Arabia,
these
are
the
places
we're
moving
into.
And
it's
where
we
meet
the
Neanderthal
and
interbred
with
them
and
then
quickly
start
wiping
them
out. 819 00:04:50,946 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
This
is
the
second
time. 825 00:04:52,146 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
This
is
the
second
time
our

(04:54):
second
lead.
So
now
we
have
entered
into
an
ice
age
world.
As
we're
as
we're
moving
into
it,
we
wipe
out
the
Neanderthals,
they're
gone. 858 00:05:03,396 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Is
it
the
change
between
the
first
time
and
the
second
time
that
allowed
us
to
wipe
them
out
instead
of
just
die? 882 00:05:08,466 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
I,
who
knows,
could
have
been
luck.
It
could
have
been
improved.
Technology.
There's
some
evidence

(05:14):
that
we
fought
a
war
for
5000
years
in
one
of
the
valleys
in
France
and
actually
developed
something
like
arrows
there
are
small
little
triangular
tips
that
would
only
make
sense
for
something
like
an
arrow,
maybe
a
dart,
but
more
probably
an
arrow,
a
super
advanced
technology
that
would
been
very
useful,
useful
against
the
Neanderthals.

(05:34):
And
even
that
technology
didn't
allow
us
to
survive
there
long
enough,
but
they
didn't
push
us
entirely
out
that
time.
And
so
it
was
probably
a
matter
of
who
was
evolved
for
a
particular
habitat.
We
were
Africans,
so
we
were
Africans
with
dark
skin
moving
into
a
cold
area
that
was
very
difficult
for
us.

(05:55):
We
were
acquiring
some
Neanderthal
genes.
They
helped
us.
We
there're
some
groups
in
the
Middle
East
that
acquired
a
very
pale
skin
that
actually
didn't
move
into
Europe
until
about
4000
years
ago
coming
from
Middle
East.
And
we
acquired
some
immune
system
improvements

(06:15):
from
Neanderthals.
So
things
that
will
be
helping
us
in
a
new
world.
But
we
did
not
change
our
language
genes.
They
were
all
strongly
selected
for
the
ones
we
brought
with
us
out
of
Africa
did
not
merge
with
Neanderthal
language.
They
they
stayed
purely
human
because
any
change
was
a
bad
change.
And
so
we
have
this
collection
of
genes.
We
moved
into
the
new
world.

(06:35):
We
used
our
sophisticated
technologies
to
get
us
through
these
hard
winters.
We
were
living
in
caves,
often
particularly
in
Spain,
south
of
France.
Other
groups
were
moving
to
Indonesia,
also
living
in
caves.
So
we
find
the
art
actually,
you
know,
perhaps
from
some
racist
preconceptions,
but
more
probably
just
because

(06:56):
the
caves
in
Europe
showed
things
like
a
mastodon,
whereas
the
caves
in
Indonesia
showed
the
same
animals
that
still
live
there
today.
So
we
didn't
assume
they
were
older.
And
so
we
thought
all
of
this
old
art
started
in
Europe.
But
now
we
know
that
the
earliest
cave
art
is
actually
being
found
in
Malaysia
and
Indonesia,
in
Sulawesi,

(07:16):
and
it
shows
the
animals
that
still
live
there
today
because
they
weren't
in
the
same
kind
of,
you
know,
climate
change
as
Europe
was.
Right.
So
Europe
was
in
the
middle
of
a
major
ice
age
with
very
different
animals
and
huge
pressure
from
the
humans
living
there
on
those
animals.
And
so
they
changed
a
lot
after
the
Ice
Age,
where
Indonesia
is
tropical,

(07:36):
Malaysia
is
tropical.
So
these
animals
didn't
change.
And
so
what
we
see
there
is,
is
AI
the
first
art,
and
we've
only
recently
really
within
the
last
five
years,
realized
that
this
is
true,
that
it
wasn't
Europe,
it
was
everywhere
humans
were
going
and
everywhere
where
they
lived
in
a
place
like
a
cave
where
you
could
paint
on
the
wall
and
it
wouldn't
get
decayed.
I'm
sure
we
were
painting
on
everything

(07:56):
we
saw
like
trees,
but
the
trees
didn't
last.
So
I
only.
Only
the
cave
paintings
survived.
And
you
know,
our
preconceptions,
whether
it
was
all
Europe.
And
now
we
understand
it
was
everywhere
we
went.
So
it
was
these
new
technologies
associated
with
the
abstract
thought,
the
ability
to
make
art,
with
the
ability
to
imagine
the
world
around
us
in
a
different
way.
Presumably
that
allowed
us

(08:16):
to
spread
it
into
this
very
harsh
world.
We
were
a
tropical
species
and
we
were
moving
into
Ice
Age,
Germany,
and
it
was
very,
very
cold.
We
were
looking
at
mile
high
glaciers.
There
were
huge
furry
animals
and
people
who
are
just
as
smart
as
us
already
living
there
who
would
also
kill
us.
And
we
we
beat
them
all.

(08:37):
We
we
killed
the
cave
bears
in
the
caves.
We
moved
into
their
caves.
We
killed
them
Neanderthals.
We
moved
into
their
caves.
And
by
14,000
years
ago,
we
were
the
dominant
species. 1545 00:08:47,706 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
And
so
we
sound
terrible. 1551 00:08:51,396 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
We're
also
great.
I
mean,
you
know,
we're
so
we're
so
flexible.
You
know,
we
were
we're
building

(08:57):
these
communities
that
live
together
and
can
survive
under
very
harsh
conditions. 1582 00:09:01,476 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
And
wiping
out
everything
in
our
path. 1590 00:09:03,816 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
That
isn't
us.
Yes.
And
then
and
then
fighting
each
other,
I'm
sure.
But
also,
you
know,
learning
how
to
build
culture
and
to
trade
with
each
other.
So
there
are
trade
goods
that
are
now
moving

(09:17):
across
thousands
of
miles
already.
So
Jade
is
moving
from
the
Alps
to
northern
England
or
by
by,
you
know,
6000
years
ago.
So
we're
we're
we're
building
communities,
we're
building
trade
networks.
And
eventually,

(09:38):
as
the
climate
begins
to
warm
again,
we
move
into
a
whole
new
sets
of
abilities
first,
starting
with
growing
grain.
So
around,
you
know,
10,000
years
ago
or
so
in
northern
Turkey,
in
Anatolia,
near
Mount
Ararat,

(09:58):
interestingly,
the
first
wheat
develops.
It's
just
a
weird
mutation,
you
know,
you
have
two
parents?
I
have
two
parents.
I
have
two
sets
of
chromosomes
from
my
two
parents.
We
have
six
parents.
It's
not
something
that
biology
would
predict.
So
it
really
just
happened
kind
of
weirdly,
but
it
happens
every
once
in
a
while,
particularly
in
plants.
Corn
did
something
similar,

(10:18):
and
when
it
does,
you
get
more
genes,
which
makes
bigger
food.
And
if
we
cultivated,
it
can
survive.
It's
not
great
if
something's
living
in
the
wild
because
there's
other
factors
on
it.
But
once
you
find
this
wonderful,
strange
new
mutation,
you
can
keep
it
going.
And
so
we
used
to
think
that
we
would
start
off
with
something
like
a
city
that
would
require
agriculture
to
keep

(10:38):
it
going
and
that
you
would
then
get
cities
growing
from
the
agriculture
and
you
then
have
specialization
and
you
would
develop
things
like
pottery
and
things
like
that.
So
it
was
farming,
population,
cities,
technologies. 1871 00:10:50,766 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
But
that's
not
we. 1876 00:10:52,026 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Now
are
finding
out
that
what
happened
in
in
Anatolia
was
actually
ceremonial
centers,
were
hunter

(10:58):
gatherers
were
coming
around,
things
sort
of
like
a
Stonehenge
and
living
in
these
areas
and
wiping
out
the
grain
to
the
point
where
they
needed
new
sources
of
food.
And
because
they're
always
throwing
their
stuff
into
the
same
garbage
heaps,
the
grains
that
grew
out
of
this,
they
discovered
they
could
eat
it.
They
also
discovered
they
could
ferment
it
into
beer.
So
what
the
really
at
the
very

(11:18):
beginning
of
time
is
beer,
because
if
you
if
you
throw
the
beer
into
the
fire
and
dry
it,
you
have
bread.
Or
if
you
just
let
it
rotten,
sit
next
to
you,
it's
beer.
And
so
these
these
these
these
ceremonial
parties
were
based
on. 2010 00:11:31,626 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Through
the
wheat
into
the
fire. 2017 00:11:33,306 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Well,
you
soak
it
because
it's
too
hard.
You
can't
just
eat
wheat,
so
you
soak
in
some
water
so
it's
softer
and
then
you
think,

(11:38):
oh,
I
can
soften
meat
with
fire.
How
about
if
I
start
softening
my
grain
with
fire?
And
it
might
boil,
but
it
might
solidify
into
this
sort
of
burnt
lump
of
stuff
and
you
discover
things
like
natural
yeasts
will
make
it
bubble
up
and
then
it's
tasty.
And
so
it's
it's
a
very
short
distance
from
soaking
grain
to
seeing
those
bubbles

(11:59):
to
drinking
it.
And
it's
alcohol
or
burning
it
and
it's
bread.
It's
the
same
thing. 2124 00:12:05,316 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
And
it's
been
with
us
since
almost
the
beginning
of
community.
Right. 2137 00:12:10,236 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
So
the
the
these,
these
hunter
gatherer
ceremonial
groups
were
starting
with
farming
to
make
themselves
beer
for
their
ceremonies.

(12:20):
But
then
because
their
populations
were
doing
so
well,
they
wiped
out
all
the
all
the
game
around
them.
And
so
then
they
became
obligate
hunters.
So
they
got
farmers.
They
could
no
longer
subsist
on
an
eye
on
the
wild
game
and
they
had
to
move
to
farming.
And
this
is
why
it's
a
farming
trap.
Once

(12:40):
you
start
farming,
it's
easy
to
live
in
a
place
and
as
a
hunter
gatherer,
you're
hungry
all
the
time
and
that
gets
you
out
of
the
cave
into
the
danger
where
all
the
nasty
animals
are.
And
then
you
go
kill
something
and
run
back
to
your
cave
as
fast
as
you
can.
Whereas
if
you're
a
farmer,
you
have
food
all
the
time,
you
have
it
stored.
You
can
keep
your
grains
in
a
place
and
keep
them
stored,
but
now
you
get

(13:00):
all
the
other
problems
because
you're
living
in
one
place,
you
no
longer
can
move
from
place
to
place
where
there's
a
new
game.
So
you've
killed
all
the
animals
around
you,
and
so
now
you're
even
more
obligated
to
eat
that
grain.
What
happens
when
there's
a
drought?
Your
whole
valley
will
die.
What
happens
when
there
are
a
flood
in
your
and
your
and
your
crops
that
are
in
the
lowlands?
Wash
away

(13:20):
again.
The
whole
valley
can
get
die.
So
the
farmer's
life
becomes
much
more
precarious.
Our
bodies
shrink.
We
become
smaller
because
when
there's
when
there
is
a
famine,
only
the
only
the
smallest
people
survive
because
you
need
less
calories
to
live.
And
so
we
went
from
hunter
gatherers,
you
know,
six
foot
tall
with
1350
sick

(13:41):
brains
to
farmers
who
were,
you
know,
five
feet
tall.
And
our
brains
were,
you
know,
1100
keys
over. 2453 00:13:47,946 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
How
much
time. 2457 00:13:50,226 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Save
4000
years.
5000
years. 2463 00:13:54,366 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
this
seems
shockingly
fast. 2469 00:13:56,286 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Yeah,
well,
it
wasn't
so
much
a
genetic
change
as
it
was
very
strong
selection,

(14:02):
a
lot
of
it
could
be
what's
called
epigenetic
changes
where
if
you
starve
a
mother,
the
offspring
will
have
changes
that
are
in
the
genes
but
can
be
actually
inherited
to
the
way
you,
you,
you
take
in,
you
know,
sugars
and
your
metabolism
works.
All
of
these
things
can
can
be
passed
down
even
without
a
genetic
change.
And
there
are
also
genetic
changes.
So
there
was
a
very

(14:22):
rapid
selection
for
smaller
people
because
we
no
longer
had
sources
of
high
quality
proteins
because
we
were
no
longer
hunters
and
we
were
stuck
as
farmers.
And
many
of
the
myths
that
we
have
relate
to
this.
So
where
we're
building
these
communities,
we're
building
the
beginning
of
civilization,
as
at
the
same
time
we're
putting
tremendous
pressure
on
ourselves.
Our

(14:42):
populations
are
growing,
you
know,
doubling
every
hundred
years
or
so.
And
so
all
of
in
a
few
thousand
years,
we
have
tremendously
big
populations
that
can
only
live
by
farming.
We've
shrunk
and
we've
developed
all
of
the
evils
of
farming.
So
large
populations
living
in
the
same
problem
in
the
same
place,
you
have
waste
problems,
right?
You're
drinking
dirty

(15:02):
water,
especially
once
you
get
animals
involved
with
it.
So
you're
drinking
the
dirty
water
from
them.
So
we
have,
you
know,
cholera
and
all
these
other
diseases
that
are
able
to
spread
through
communities.
So
we
have
real
warfare.
Up
until
this
time,
it
would
have
been
raiding
probably
for
more
women.
Right.
So
if
you
have
a
a
polygamist

(15:23):
society,
the
old
men
tend
to
have
all
of
the
females
and
the
younger
ones
need
to
get
them
somewhere.
And
so
they
will
go
raid
the
next
door
communities.
And
so
we've
always
been
doing
this,
but
there
was
a
transition
with
farming
to
something
where
you
could
actually
invade
somewhere
and
get
real
goods
from

(15:43):
it.
You
can
steal
their
grain,
they're
stolen
grain.
That's
a
value
you
can
carry
back
with
you.
You
can
steal
their
land
as
soon
as
you
have
their
land.
They're
no
longer
hunter
gatherers.
They
can't
just
leave
and
go
to
the
next
valley.
You've
taken
something
and
you've
doubled
your
production
and
you
can
steal
the
people,
You
can
make
them
your
slaves.
And
if
you
have
slaves,
you
can
now
control

(16:03):
a
much
larger
production.
You
can
have
a
bigger
army
and
you
can
go
do
it
again.
And
so
you
have
the
development
of
not
just
cities
and
city
states
used
to
get
walls
around
your
city
to
protect
them
with
the
farms
outside,
but
the
people
can
hide
in
the
city
until
the,
you
know,
raiders
go
away
and
you
have
goods
worth
stealing
from
your
people
to

(16:23):
to
to
the
grains,
to
the
land
itself.
And
all
of
these
things
are
coming
directly
from
farming.
So
our
lives
became
in
many
ways
much
more
difficult,
where
we're
periodically
starving
to
death.
So
every
time
we
we
we
we
have
a
drought
roll
to
destroying
our
environment.
Any
place
where
farming
starts,
you
see
erosion
because
we've
chopped
down

(16:43):
the
forests
and
all
the
hillsides
get
denuded.
And
so
you
go
from
these
lush
forests
to
something
that
looks
like
Greece
today,
where
you
see
open
rocks
everywhere
because
the
soil
just
gets
washed
off
the
hillsides
and
you
can
see
it
anytime
people
move
in,
you
see
huge
amounts
of
sediment
happening
in
association
with
with
pollen
that
you
would
associate
with,
you
know,
rise

(17:03):
of
agriculture
in
an
area.
So
we're
environmentally
destructive
everywhere
we
go
from
the
very
beginning,
we
wipe
out
the
larger
animals
all
around
us
and
we
destroy
the
soil.
And
so
farming
civilizations
periodically
collapse
due
to
environmental
destruction.
For
example,
they
think
the
Anasazi

(17:24):
were
weakened
during
a
prolonged
drought,
not
just
because
of
the
drought,
but
because
if
you
live
in
a
desert
and
you
irrigate
the
desert,
the
irrigation
itself
builds
up
salt
in
the
soil.
As
the
water
evaporates,
it
leaves
the
salt
behind
and
there's
nothing
you
can
do
about
it.
And
the
longer
the
drought
lasts,
the
worse
it
gets.
And
so
a
whole
civilization
can
collapse.

(17:44):
And
it's
probably
happened
numerous
times
due
to
changes
in
climate.
So
again,
climate
driving
the
way
we
live
is
is
always
been
part
of
the
human
experience
and
is
very
important
to
how
we
live,
where
we
do
and
how
we
look
the
way
we
do
so. 3231 00:18:00,246 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Is
directly
again,
connected
to
farming. 3238 00:18:03,096 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
To
farming,
yes.
And

(18:04):
with
farming
it
becomes
most
important
because
we
now
we're
trapped
in
it.
There's
no
there's
no
getting
away
from
it.
And
any
time
we
have
the
ability
to
get
away
from
it,
we
do
until
we
trap
ourselves
again.
So,
for
example,
the
Murray,
when
they
go
to
New
Zealand,
they
were
farmers,
they
were,
they
were
Polynesian
farmers.
They
get
to
or
Micronesian,
depending
on
which
group
you
want
to

(18:24):
put
people
in
and
they
get
to
New
Zealand
and
they
immediately
become
hunter
gatherers
again
because
there's
large,
flightless
birds
everywhere
and
they
can
hunt
them
down
and
it's
a
great
way
to
live
and
it
only
lasts
a
few
hundred
years.
They
wipe
out
all
the
large,
easy
to
eat
animals
and
they
become
farmers
again.
And
so
this
is
what
we've
done
over
and

(18:44):
over
again.
We
did
it
in
the
Americas
when
people
first
colonized
the
Americas,
they
were
hunter
gatherers.
They
wiped
out
all
the
all
the
all
the
mammoths
and
all
the
all
the
ground
sloth.
And
when
they
all
these
large,
easy
to
eat
animals
were
gone,
they
moved
to
bison
and
other
animals.
But
again,
eventually
they
moved
to
farming
and
they
ended
up
with
sort
of
a
permanent
farming
transition.

(19:05):
Actually,
it's
interesting,
some
of
the
Native
American
groups,
I
would
say,
managed
a
more
sustainable
approach
than
most
other
groups
have
done,
where
they
were
able
to
have
a
a
development
of
farming
and
not
completely
destroy
the
environment
around
them
where
they
had
managed
burns
in
areas

(19:25):
they
kept
forests
for
hunting
that
were
not
inhabited.
And
then
they
had
areas
that
they
did
their
farming
with
squash
and
corn.
And
so
they
were
able
to
have
a
supply
of
food
in
that
way.
And
so
it
was
a
really
interesting
thing
that
was
developing,
particularly
in
the
Northeast,
but
in
several
areas

(19:46):
where
they
had
actually
figured
out
a
way
to
have
the
best
of
both
worlds
where
you're
not
starving
because
you
have
a
reserve
from
farming
and
you
have
the
high
quality
food
that
a
hunter
gatherer
can
bring
in
because
they
hadn't
killed
all
their
deer
and
they
hadn't
killed
all
their
moose
and
there
was
still
forest
bison
larger
than
the
plains
bison

(20:07):
wiped
out
as
soon
as
the
European
settlers
got
here.
But
of
course.
Exactly.
You
know,
again,
we're
terrible
people,
but
every
once
in
a
while
we
figure
out
a
way
to
live
better
and
it
really
works
and
it
becomes
sustainable.
Meaning
you
can
keep
doing
it
for
a
thousand
years
and
you
don't
destroy
everything
around
you,
but
you
need
a
very
productive,
stable
climate,

(20:27):
for
example.
Right?
We're
moving
into
a
new
period.
That's
not
so. 3703 00:20:30,466 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
I
assume
you
need
a
fairly
limited
population. 3712 00:20:33,696 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
You
have
to
keep
your
population
in
control.
And
you
you
can't
have
major
changes
to
your
habitat,
so
you
can't
go
through
it. 3737 00:20:44,766 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
it's
all
very
delicate. 3743 00:20:46,206 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
It's
very
delicate
balance.
You

(20:47):
can't
go
through
a
50
year
drought.
You
know,
it's
going
to
be
very,
very
difficult.
And
the
first
thing
that's
going
to
go
is
all
of
those
animals
you
are
working
very
hard
to
sustainably
keep
around
you
because
now
everyone's
hungry
and
now
you're
really
trapped. 3797 00:21:03,396 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Right
now
you
need
to
farm
more. 3805 00:21:04,806 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Now
you
need
to
farm
more.
And
so
this
happens
over
and
over
again.

(21:08):
And
that's
why
I
say
in
for
example,
in
places
like
Greece
where
there's
been,
you
know,
the
whole
history
of
civilization,
you
have
periods
of
farming
with
periods
of
huge
amounts
of
erosion,
followed
by
probably
a
collapse.
So,
for
example,
the
Bronze
Age
collapse

(21:28):
some
people
think
was
associated
with
with
destruction
of
all
the
civilizations,
and
that
this
would
have
ended.
Farming
in
particular
areas
lasted
for
hundreds
of
years.
So
the
trees
grew
back
and
so
the
erosion
went
away
and
so
the
environment
improved
again.
But
then
civilization
comes
back
and
everything
gets
denuded
again.

(21:49):
So
these
these
these,
these,
these
periods. 3927 00:21:51,456 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Round
and
round
we. 3932 00:21:52,476 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Go,
round
and
round,
here
we
go.
But
with
this
sort
of
constant
ratcheting
forward,
hopefully
of
understanding
ourselves
and
making
more
sustainable
cities
and
more
sustainable
environmental
interactions,
if
we. 3964 00:22:05,016 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Have
any
way
of
keeping
that
knowledge
over
time,
which
we
don't
seem
to
be
very
good

(22:09):
at.
And
well. 3985 00:22:10,656 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
It's,
it's
interesting
because
we
do. 3992 00:22:13,566 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Actually
have
deep. 3996 00:22:16,026 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Deep
myths
of
this
transition.
So
Jacob
and
Esau
in
the
in
the
Bible,
Esau
was
the
hunter
gatherer.
You
know,
he
was
the
he
was
the
the
hunter
traveling
in
the
wilderness.
And
he
comes
home
hungry

(22:29):
and
Jacob
says,
Sure,
I'll
give
you
a
bowl
of
porridge
in
exchange
for
your
birthright.
And
thus
there
are
no
hunter
gatherers.
So
they
traded
a
bowl
of
porridge
for
the
birthright.
They
know
this
happened,
and
it's
right
there
in
the
Old
Testament.

(22:50):
So
you
know,
these
these
are
things
we
we
know
about,
right?
We
know
about
it
in
the
Old
Testament
also,
when
when
when
Adam
and
Eve
were
kicked
out
with
the
first
thing
that
they're
they're
forced
to
do
is
is
Adam
has
to
work
for
his
food
from
the
sweat.
It
was
drought
he
has
to
farm
Eden
was
hunting
hunting
and
gathering
now
now
Adam
has

(23:10):
to
farm.
Right.
So
these
these
are
our
myths.
We
totally
understand
what's
going
on.
One
of
the
most
interesting
ones
is
in
ancient
Egypt.
So
the
Egyptian
civilization
starts
around
5000
years
ago.
And
it's
not
a
coincidence
that
at
that
same
time
there
was
a
an
extended
cooling
period
that
made
the
Sahara
become
much

(23:30):
drier
there.
And
so
hunting
and
gathering
became
more
difficult
because
what
had
been
something
like
the
Serengeti,
where
the
Sahara
is
dried
out
to
the
current
desert
and
people
had
to
move
along
the
river.
And
the
only
way
to
get
enough
food
living
on
a
river
was
to
start
farming.
And
so
they
went
from
a
hunter
gatherer
society
to
a
river
based
farming
society.
V

(23:50):
quickly
and
became
the
Egyptian
civilization.
And
in
their
myths
they
talk
about
how
ra
the
sun
God
lived
with
the
people,
but
they
did
not
worship
RA
properly
and
he
didn't
get
the
respect
that
they
needed.
And
so
the
eye
of
Ra,
which

(24:10):
is
the
sun,
became
sick,
met
the
female
goddess
who
is
a
lion,
and
she
is
the
lion
of
the
desert.
And
where
she
walks,
everything
burns
and
so
she
met,
came
and
she
burned
basically
what
the
Serengeti
was
and
turned
it
into
the
Sahara.
And
when
she
met
burned
the
Serengeti,

(24:30):
everyone
was
dying.
And
so
the
people
took
red
dye
and
they
filled
a
lake
of
beer
with
it.
They
made
a
lake
of
beer.
So
again,
beer
at
the
transition
to
farming,
they
filled
the
lake
of
beer.
They
died
it
red
and
they
tricked
sediment
into
thinking
it
was
a
lake
of
blood.
And

(24:50):
she
in
her
anger
at
their
disrespect
for
Ra
because
she
was
she
was
the
son
and
she
was
raw
and
she
was
sick
and
she
was
the
lioness.
Powerful
female,
Right.
Lionesses.
They'r
the
ones
who
actually
do
the
hunting.
She's
the
one
who
is
is
representing
hunting
and
gathering
in
this
this
idea.
So
she
goes
from
a
hunter,

(25:11):
female
drinks
this
beer
beginning
of
agriculture
beer
passes
out
and
wakes
up
is
half
hour
the
the
cow
and
holding
the
son
in
her
horns
and
half
or
eventually
becomes
ice
is
holding
the
son
in
her
horns.
So
this
is
this
is
this
is
a
transitionary
period
that
we
have
very

(25:31):
much
in
our
religion,
in
our
mythology.
We
understand
that
this
was
a
trap
we
got
ourselves
into.
This
is
not
seen
as
a
wonderful
moment.
This
is
seen
as
a
really
hard
moment.
And,
you
know,
many,
many,
many
religions
have
the
idea
of
things
going
downhill.
And
I
think
it
is
very
much
based
on
this
idea

(25:51):
of
the
transition
from
Eden
to
the
transition
to
eating
of
the
fruit,
of
the
tree
of
knowledge
and
becoming
farmers
and
everything,
becoming
hard
and
no
longer
being
able
just
reach
out
and
pick
the
fruit
from
the
tree.
But
you
now
have
to
work
for
it. 4649 00:26:06,576 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
I
never
thought
of
this
this
way. 4657 00:26:08,976 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Well,
thank
you.
I
that
that's
where
I
wanted
to
get
to
with
with
the
farming

(26:12):
trap
is,
is
trying
to
explain
how
our
beginning
understand
thing
gets
us
out
of
Africa
gets
us
into
a
hunter
gatherer
society
spreading
all
over
the
globe
with
our
with
our
art,
with
our
technologies,
wiping
out
everything
as
we
go
And
then
as
as
the

(26:32):
ice
age
ends,
farming
becomes
possible.
And
because
we're
lazy
and
because
we
don't
want
to
be
hungry,
we
turn
to
it.
And
that's
the
trap. 4747 00:26:44,256 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Little
could
we
have
known. 4753 00:26:46,326 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
I
think
we
do
know.
I
think
we
always
know. 4764 00:26:48,246 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Before
before
we
even
started
farming,
we. 4772 00:26:52,326 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
God

(26:52):
told
us
not
to
eat
that
fruit. 4781 00:26:55,416 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
But
indeed
he
did. 4786 00:26:57,786 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
We
knew
because
we
did
it
over
and
over
again,
we
would
become
farmers,
we
become
hunter
gatherers,
and
then
we
become
farmers
again. 4811 00:27:06,666 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
We're
lazy,
we're
lazy. 4816 00:27:08,586 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
An
we
know
and
we
will
always
trade
being
hungry

(27:12):
for
our. 4829 00:27:13,206 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Birthright.
Farming
life
from
what
you
say
is
the
harder
life
it
is. 4843 00:27:17,196 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
But
you're
not
hungry. 4848 00:27:19,176 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
that's
not
lazy.
We're
just
afraid
of
being
hungry.
We
don't
want
to
be
hungry.
Yeah,
that
I
can
understand. 4870 00:27:24,906 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Yeah.
Okay.
So
it's
not
lazy.
It's
actually.
Yeah,
Yeah.
A
hunter
gatherer
has
more
free
time,
and
it's.
And
it's
a
better
activity,
you
know?
What
would
you
rather
do?
Like,
go
for

(27:32):
a
long
walk
and
shoot
a
bow
at
a
deer
and
then
carry
it
back
and
eat
it
or
dig
holes
all
day? 4928 00:27:39,786 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Yeah.
Backbreaking
work.
Yeah.
So
next
time.
Yeah. 4937 00:27:45,396 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Next
time
we'll
have
to
think
about
where
we
go
from
farming.
We
might
talk
about
adaptations.
It's
done
to
our
bodies.
Adaptations.
It's
done

(27:53):
to
our
societies. 4966 00:27:54,246 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
I
would
love
to.
I
would
love
to
start
getting
to
how,
you
know,
these
adaptations
inform
the
decisions
we
have
to
make
today
with
the
bodies
we
have
right
now. 4998 00:28:05,676 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Absolutely.
We're
totally
we're
absolutely
getting
there.
Yes.
All
right. 5009 00:28:08,226 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Exc.
Well,
thank
you
very
much.
See
you
next
time. 5020 00:28:10,926 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Thank
you.