April 29, 2024 • 55 mins
Step into the world of cross-cultural dating with First-generation Japanese-American Mami Sugita!
In this episode, Mami opens up about her whirlwind journey through relationships that span continents, cultures, and a whole lot of soul-searching.
Mami shares candid insights into the challenges and misunderstandings that shaped each romantic encounter. But beyond the typical relationship hurdles, Mami delves into the nuances of navigating different cultural expressions of affection and love as well as relationship status and commitment.
Growing up, Mami navigated the complexities of her dual heritage, often feeling caught between two worlds and like she wasn't fully accepted in the Japanese world. As she searched (the world!) for that perfect partner that would accept her for who she was, she ultimately realized it was up to her to cultivate self love and self acceptance.
Join us as we travel through Mami's cross cultural dating timeline!
Episode Breakdown:
- Introduction to Season 2 of Mixunderstood: introducing the themes and topics to be explored.
- Fun facts about Mami and Hanna-Lee’s friendship including anecdotes about Mami's supportive role in Hanna-Lee's life and Mami's passion for travel.
- Mami’s upbringing as the first born to Japanese immigrants including her responsibilities in bridging language barriers and navigating dual cultural identities.
- Mami's cross cultural dating journey: Her first boyfriend and what changed after that.
- The challenges and cultural dynamics in each relationship, such as struggles with communication styles and cultural expectations.
- Discuss how Mami's cross-cultural dating experiences ultimately led her to prioritize self-acceptance and embrace imperfection.
- The growth and transformation in Mami's current relationship with her Italian partner, including improvements in communication and alignment of familial values.
- The concept of "Wabi Sabi" and its significance in Mami's perspective on relationships and imperfection.
Music by Mathias Kunzli www.mathiaskunzli.com
Editing: Favio Esquivel & Hanna-Lee Sakakibara
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Mixed Understood, where we talk about identity, the meaning of the
word race, and explore the multicultural and multiracial experience through
personal stories, candid conversations, and expert insights.
I'm your host, Hanalee Sakakibara. Thank you so much for being here today. Welcome to season two.
(00:23):
I wanted to focus this season on mixed dating, relationships,
marriage, and then go into to family dynamics and explore all the things from
parenthood to raising mixed kids to transracial adoption and so forth.
Before we begin, I want to give a few shout outs. First of all, to Dorothy Dundas.
(00:43):
Dorothy, if you're listening to this, I'm giving you a huge hug and a thank you.
Dorothy was the first person to sign up to the Mixed Understood Patreon.
Dorothy, you did it. You cracked the, what's the saying? You cracked the egg? Is that a saying?
You guys get what I'm saying. Thank you for that, Dorothy.
(01:04):
So you heard that right? Yes, I have a Patreon.
So if you've been enjoying listening to this podcast so far and you want to
help support me, support this, what we're doing here together,
I would deeply appreciate it.
You can sign up starting as low as $3.99 a month.
$3.99 a month, guys. That's less than a coffee, I think, these days.
(01:27):
And if you want to support more than that, there are also some perks involved.
So go have a look at the link. It's at the show notes and check out the Patreon.
I also wanted to thank my family and my husband who have been so supportive
and encouraging throughout this hosting transition.
And of course, to my wonderful friends who've listened to me brainstorm and
(01:49):
have given me advice on how to proceed. So So thank you so much.
Lastly, it's important to say that Mixed Understood is a space where stories,
ideas, and research are shared for your consideration, but it's for you to shape
your opinions in light of your own knowledge and experience.
My hope is to explore, learn, and grow together with you.
(02:09):
I don't claim to have all the answers. My aim is to start conversations around these topics.
All right, so in today's episode, I will be chatting over Zoom with my dear
friend-like family, Mami Alisa Sugita.
We'll be journeying together through her intercultural current and past relationships
and how they intersect with her
(02:29):
sense of identity and belonging as a first-generation Japanese-American.
It was a hard straddle between the two worlds, and for me, I think I dealt with
it as kind of pushing away that Japanese side of me, being like,
ah, I am, but I'm not fully.
There's no way I was going to suffer and to appease his family,
(02:52):
you know, pretty much change my personality.
Or if it was just even the clothing, I could only imagine what she would want out of me.
Music.
(03:14):
Mami Alisa Sugita! Hello! Welcome!
Let's give the listeners a few fun facts about our friendship and Mami.
So... Oh, yes. Mami helped me move.
I mean... I would say more than five, but about ten times. Like, that's...
(03:37):
Yes. And we're talking not just, like, moving, but storage moving.
Like, everything included. included everything.
So in my little smart car. Yeah, you had this tiny smart car.
I did not have a car the first few years I lived in LA.
And you were that angel friend that was willing to help me move again and again and again.
(03:58):
Like in three and a half years, I think I moved about 17 times.
No, really, it was kind of mind blowing. And to me, I got to see all the places.
It was really It was really nice because then I got to explore these different
neighborhoods you were moving into.
We had just moved to L.A., you know, too, at the same time.
So it was a really great excuse for me to see where you were living and also
(04:23):
check out, like, yeah, explore with you.
So if I am the one in this friendship that has moved a lot, like as far as apartments,
Mommy likes to move a lot globally.
She's a traveler.
Almost every time we talk, you're already telling me, I have a ticket.
I'm going to this. I'm going to that. I'm going to Spain. I'm going to France. I'm going to Colombia.
(04:46):
You went to Colombia to learn Spanish just for the sake of learning Spanish.
I was there probably just hitting about six months, right?
I have danced salsa for about 16 years now, socially.
And I've always loved the music. I've always been super involved with the dance,
(05:09):
but the language was the last part that hooked me.
And that year, there was a lot of things that have happened.
And I just decided, you know, why not learn a language in the country that I want to be in?
So Colombia was a country that I'd already been interested in.
My friend was living there.
(05:29):
And then it just all made sense in my head at that time to move to Colombia
to learn Spanish and to salsa dance and to just learn a new culture all together.
Yeah. Mommy's the kind of person that if you invite her, like if you live on
some remote island in the middle of nowhere, and you invite her to come over
(05:52):
for like your kid's fifth birthday,
she will show up.
Oh, hands down. I always tell everyone, I'm like, please don't send me an invitation
if you don't mean it, because I will come.
So your parents are Japanese, and they are immigrants.
(06:19):
They moved here when they were... My dad, when he was 17, so he finished high school.
He did a high school exchange student program in California.
And then my mom was visiting her brother years later when my mom met my dad.
And my mom was 22 years old.
And my dad at the time was 26 when they met. So they met, they got married,
(06:43):
and they settled down in Ohio.
Yeah, that's where I'm from. So you're the firstborn.
Yes. How was it like for you growing up with immigrant parents?
Who are, you know, have definitely kept strong Japanese traditions in the house.
They've taught you Japanese, which is amazing.
(07:05):
Yes. What was it like for you growing up? Right.
I was always, you know, my dad's work involved speaking to Japanese people and
being around that community.
So I was very blessed and grew up speaking and understanding the only channel
we had in the house. We didn't even have a TV for a while.
And then I remember when we did get one, it was connected to this one channel
(07:29):
in Japan that streams here in the U.S. called NHK.
And it's only really just like a Japanese network that has the news channel, has some kids shows.
And funny story, when my sister and I were growing up and we had a landline,
we had a voice recording machine to leave a message.
(07:50):
And instead of my parents, because because they had such thick Japanese accent,
they would ask us to leave the voice recording message.
Hi, welcome. And so they didn't feel as bad or we would order pizza,
but my sister and I would order it because they wouldn't understand what my parents were saying.
(08:10):
So just, it was just a very, they like to share the roles with us.
So we kind of felt like, ooh, responsible and like big kid.
I just can imagine like the pizza guy picking up the phone and you're like,
hello, I would like to order two watch pizzas with mushrooms and anchovies and
(08:31):
a little bit of pepperoni.
And can we get a large bottle of Coca-Cola? that?
It was really like, I don't know.
We just, it felt normal to us, I guess. But it is kind of funny to think what
the other person on the other line would have thought, like a little kid calling for an order.
But it was a great experience. And it was really nice to be involved.
(08:55):
Like, that was our family unit. You know, that was our family connection.
So you felt like, because I know a lot of kids of immigrants can sometimes feel that burden.
But it seems like in your case it
was like a privilege like you felt like I get to
be an adult I get to you know take
charge I'm feeling empowered right I
(09:15):
think it was just my personality too I just love to talk to people one of the
things I noticed about you is here's this chick she's coming at me like strong
like she has a lot of vocal strength like she has a deep chest voice.
And she's very animated and like big and like,
(09:37):
you know, a lot of women in Japan are a little bit, in general,
a lot of Japanese people I met, they're more reserved in their physical expressions and their voices.
A lot of the women's voices are usually higher pitched.
How is that when you, when you go to Japan and.
And you talk to people there. Do they kind of, are they, how do they react to you?
(10:01):
Right. That's the most interesting part about being both because I was able to speak.
So I think people were confused that my voice was not your traditional,
a little bit higher pitched.
It does have to do with culturally, just women are kind of expected to speak in that tone of voice.
But I would definitely get stares and glares. and it was actually very hard
(10:27):
because it felt like I wasn't already accepted in.
I was already looked as an outsider or someone very.
Like they couldn't figure me out who I was as I was speaking in Japanese in
a pretty fluent conversational way, but also not having the right mannerisms
that acted with my speaking level.
(10:49):
So it was tough. You know, it's that cultural immersion of the two where I am,
I have a little bit more of this outspokenness to me.
But at the same time, that Japanese side was struggling to figure out,
well, you can speak it, but you don't act it. So it was kind of a challenge
(11:10):
growing up, definitely.
And going back to Japan sometimes.
But also, I spoke English. So people clearly knew that I wasn't actually from
like a native Japanese speaker, which was nice.
But I think I am, I think this is the topic like I think I am facing today.
Like who I am rediscovering this other side of me.
(11:34):
What do you mean by that? I mean, I am ready to merge the two.
I have a curiosity for the first time into really exploring deep my Japanese
side and my Japanese culture that I grew up in, but I didn't necessarily want to explore before.
And it's kind of a new thing that's come up inside of me.
(12:00):
So, I mean, it sounds like you had a lot of Japanese culture in your life growing
up. Yes. But you want to take it to the next level? I think so.
Just moving there. I'm a very experiential. I love to experience life.
So I have been dabbling in my head to maybe move there, live there for just
(12:22):
like I did in Colombia, maybe six months, maybe a year.
No plan. But it is something on my mind that I would like to do just to really
embody and not have this fear base that I guess I had had in the past.
And now I'm just kind of ready to embrace this new outlook.
(12:43):
How did it feel? Yeah.
Straddling multiple worlds and feeling like
you're you're mostly a part of this but
like you're not exactly the same as your friends or your family right it it
was I guess everybody takes it you know in a different way but I I think for
(13:04):
me I had taken the parts that I loved meaning the food. I love the Japanese food culture.
I love just the, maybe the architecture and just the cultural part for looking
as like an outsider going to Japan.
It was beautiful, but it, it was a hard straddle between the two worlds.
(13:25):
And, and for me, I think I dealt with it as kind of pushing away that Japanese
side of me being like, ah, I am, but I'm not fully.
So So I'm just going to stick to this American side where I can kind of blend in.
And I had this pretty strong fear of not blending in with Japanese people as
(13:46):
far as when I was even in first grade when I went to Japanese school and I got
bullied and it kind of scarred me of like, oh, I don't fit in.
You know, that was like, I think the first moment I realized that I was different.
And as a whole, the Japanese community had a different view,
had a different lifestyle than what I had known.
(14:08):
So I guess in a way, it was a very interesting time of my life to straddle the two worlds.
So you went to Japanese school, which had mostly other people.
Japanese American kids. But of those kids, you were one of the few that kind
(14:28):
of immersed yourself more in American culture.
Is that why they bullied you? Because you weren't like 100% submerged in Japanese culture?
What I didn't realize, I took it at the time that I was different.
And yes, that I blended better in the American schools with just diversity or
just letting myself be free.
(14:50):
And it was just a very confusing time.
I think it's funny to think now that I got bullied because later on,
everyone told me, oh, this kid probably liked you.
And I was like, oh, that is not a way to show a first, you know what I mean? I'm six.
I don't know how old I was, but six or seven. And it was just a very, it was just aggressive.
(15:13):
It was just very passive in a Japanese way. And I think I didn't know how to,
you know, I can't remember exactly what it was, but I remember crying underneath my desk.
Like I'm not even, I don't like crying in front of people.
And here I was just, I think I was humiliated over something that he said in
front of the whole class or I have no idea, to be honest.
(15:36):
I don't remember that specifically, but.
But you were being like too outspoken for.
Probably. The environment. Ironman. Yeah. That I was in. Yes. Yes.
And have you felt the flip of that when you were like at school and in American school?
And were you did you fully blend in there? I fully blended in everyone.
(16:00):
It's more about individualism. I think in a Japanese school,
you have to kind of be more communal based.
So, you know, to not be so individualistic,
I guess, maybe that's not the right word, but I think it was,
it was just an easier environment for me to, to make friends and to be myself in that school.
(16:23):
Did you ever experience racism in your school growing up?
Honestly, I don't remember, or, you know, at that time, you just don't think that that's what it was.
But I think I grew up in a very mixed culture environment, or at least my community in Ohio.
(16:44):
Oddly, we had a lot of different Asian cultures.
We really had a mixed group of kids. So I don't think we even recognize it.
We don't talk about it like we do today, but it was a really great environment.
Music.
(17:06):
You know, in the 11 years that I've known you, I happened to notice that you
date international guys.
When I met you, you were dating an Italian guy and then you dated a Mexican
guy and then you dated a Brazilian guy.
And I and I have heard about your your exes. And I just thought It might be
(17:29):
nice to talk a little bit about your multicultural dating life.
Yes, even though I'm so private. But yes, I think there is a great theme to
some of these relationships of why I get into them.
Have you ever dated like a local American born guy?
(17:53):
Yes. Because all I know about is these international guys that are either visiting
or they're new immigrants to the country.
Yes, I have. The first boyfriend I had was from my school.
He was born and raised in Ohio, probably like a third, fourth generation,
(18:16):
just a normal American guy.
And, you know, we had more of a friendship than a romantic relationship is what I recognize now.
But yes, it was nice.
It was just that I think after him, I really didn't date any,
(18:38):
like I would say American born, but I think it's also because I left Ohio and
I moved straight to New York, which has a little more diversity as well.
So I would say that has a factor into it.
Okay. So Mami just now spoke in a very Japanese manner, which means you need
(19:00):
to read between the lines of what she said.
So let's just go back to what you said.
You said that you realized looking back that it was more of a friendship than
a romantic relationship.
So is this a secret or can we just say what happened?
No, you can say it. Because it wasn't the fact, that wasn't the factor, but yes, he is a gay man.
(19:27):
He is living his best life.
And I, you know, I didn't realize he didn't come out and I was his girlfriend at the time.
And so that kind of scarred you though a little bit?
Hmm. It was more so that it hurt my ego.
Like it was at that time, I didn't look at it as like, oh, you know, that's so great.
(19:54):
It was really like, oh, are people actually like find me attractive?
I think that was like a big ego bust for me. So.
So it was like, man, like I finally have this serious boyfriend and it's really cool.
And then you're like, wait a second. He wasn't He wasn't even actually attracted
(20:14):
or into me, potentially.
Right, because it was more of a deep friendship.
But that was, yes, it kind of, after that, it flipped me totally to another
genre of men, which was Asian men.
Like I dated, right after that, I dated like a Taiwanese guy and then right
(20:35):
into like a pretty serious relationship to a Japanese guy.
So it was more so of just going back to like a comfort zone maybe after that,
because we had similar cultures and I knew how they like showed their affection and love to me.
Okay. So you felt like, oh, I'm such an idiot.
(20:58):
I didn't recognize the social cues of the American culture because I grew up
with the Japanese culture's influence in my life. Of showing love,
right, of how love is shown.
And so now I'm like, I'm better off...
I'll be safer if I'm in a relationship where I understand the social cues of love. Exactly.
(21:21):
You're exactly explaining what I feel.
Which is actually really interesting because, yeah, the Japanese social cues
of love are like way more complicated to me than, you know. No,
because it's little acts of service.
It's... It's all about subtlety. It's subtle. Yes, it is subtle.
(21:42):
Crazy subtle and like
every little thing has meaning yes
where you sit how you sit the tone of your voice the tiniest physical gesture
like of just tapping someone on the shoulder is like a really big deal you don't
(22:03):
just you don't just touch the shoulder for no reason in.
It's intense. It can be really intense.
So how was it like dating? Was he a Japanese that also immigrated to the States
or was he living in Japan?
He was from Japan, but he was studying at the Ohio State University.
(22:26):
So he was just an exchange student.
I was visiting a friend at college and we just ran into each other at a bar.
We had mutual friends. He was saying hi to the friend that I was with.
And then he was like kind of, it was like that movie scene where he was like
going up the stairs and I was like going down the stairs.
And then time slowed down. It was just like that look, right? It was just a look.
(22:50):
And then we just kind of kept going. But then we found each other because we had mutual friends.
We found each other at another house party the following weekend.
It was just that kind of a love story.
So now you're like, okay, round two. I mean, I know there was also the Taiwanese
guy, but I haven't actually ever heard about the Taiwanese guy.
(23:12):
This is the first time I'm hearing about him. So it was in high school.
Yeah. So that wasn't like a big relationship, but I know that the Japanese guy, that was a big one.
Yes. So So how did that go? How did that work out for you?
It really, we really clicked. I understood how easy it was to be with him.
(23:32):
And he also spoke English.
So it was really nice that we could, he understood me, even if I couldn't speak
in the correct way, or if I was trying to explain myself, he would allow me
to explain it in English.
And we'd kind of figure it out, but kind of bilingually talk to each other. My parents loved him.
(23:54):
It felt like a fairy tale. It felt like, oh, this is perfect.
You know, this is who I'm supposed to end up with. That's how it felt like.
What I realized was, is that it was totally in my comfort zone.
It was just easy. That's all I could say. It was easy. So why did you break up? Well...
I had moved to New York already at that time. We were still together.
(24:19):
And he was finishing up his last year in Ohio at school.
And then he had to make a choice of whether to stay in the States or get a job in Japan.
And when we were making that decision, I had traveled to Japan with him that
year that he had graduated from college.
(24:40):
And I had met his family. family
now his dad is a very traditional
business guy his mom is just this
lovely bubbly person and
we got along very well but it was his grandmother that I met that I think left
(25:00):
me a scar again it was just she was very very old school traditional woman and
I remember it was summer and I was wearing a tank top and literally,
I don't know the exact translation,
but the word in Japanese is hade, meaning like you're showing too much skin essentially.
And she basically was judging what I was wearing already without even like meeting me.
(25:26):
And I just had this sense of like, oh, like my submissive Japanese side started
to come out and I was just like, okay.
I went and bought like a little cardigan to like, I felt ashamed,
you know, I felt ashamed slash embarrassed and...
That incident really kind of, I think, was a pinnacle moment in my decision
(25:50):
when he told me that he got a job offer in Japan and that he was going to live there.
And that would mean to continue our relationship, I would have to move to Japan
and essentially live in this household.
I would be living with his parents.
(26:10):
And I just knew at that moment in that time of my life, I was like, I can't do this.
There's no way I was going to suffer and to appease his family,
to pretty much change my personality.
Or if it was just even the clothing, I could only imagine what she would want out of me.
(26:31):
So it was just another reality check on me not fitting into the society.
I knew that wasn't part of my character at the time. I was like,
that's not what I want to be. That's not who I am.
And so it was a very difficult choice. So you were like, I can't be the typical,
like, Japanese submissive wife, right? Yeah. There's no way. Yeah.
(26:54):
And you felt that he was kind of expecting you to be that in a way or?
No, not at all. He is just, I think what was hard was we both knew,
but it was, again, a Japanese way where we couldn't face each other to say exactly our feelings,
you know, where he was like, you don't have to follow me, but this is what I need to do for me.
(27:18):
And I also was like, there's no way I can move there and start a new lifestyle or life, a way of life.
So we kind of just stopped talking to each other.
It was just a very gradual like, okay, this is done.
Interesting. Again, it was one of those things where I'm like,
(27:40):
oh, I'm trying, but I don't know, I hit like another block in this wanting to
be accepted and then kind of in my eyes being rejected.
Music.
So then you were like, I'm going to change things up.
(28:03):
I'm going to go like try to give it a go with someone from Italy. Correct.
Okay. So we're talking like very different cultures. Very.
But at this moment in my life, I was working in several restaurants and bars in New York City.
And I was really getting to meet people from all over the world.
(28:27):
So that was really exciting and felt like I was in the epicenter.
So I, this particular guy I met while I was working at a karaoke bar and he
had just landed like probably a few days prior or maybe over the week,
but I'll just say a few days prior is what I think.
That's kind of when I met you kind of around then when you were in a relationship
(28:52):
with him and he actually followed you and you moved to LA together.
And I got a glimpse into that relationship and I really got to see some of like
the cultural differences between you two, especially when it came to navigating
the challenges in the relationship.
How you guys dealt with conflict was very different.
(29:14):
And with your permission, I wanted to talk about it a little bit. Yes.
So talk to me. Oh, this is a tough one, but it's good. You're right.
My way of communicating at that time in my life was avoidance.
Non-confrontational. Exactly what I saw in my parents, you know?
(29:35):
It's very kind of, it's a little bit of cultural reference of Japanese people in general.
So it's just pleasing and not really disrupting.
And I feel like I was really trying to avoid a lot of the conflict until I couldn't, until I exploded.
But his was just the 180 opposite, you know, at that time.
(29:58):
Very explosive, very just in your face, so to speak.
Any little discomfort or arguments that was to be had was just an explosion.
So while that was happening, I would just turn my head the other way.
I didn't have even the guts to leave.
(30:19):
I would just avoid facing that situation. That's how I was.
Yeah. And it was also hard for you to express your needs.
Oh, absolutely. I couldn't even understand my emotions, actually.
I mean, I was sad or upset, but I was always just trying to avoid those feelings.
(30:42):
So I didn't know how to express when something was making me feel uncomfortable.
I would just kind of be like, okay, how do I escape this? How do I make it better?
How do I find the next best thing?
And he wasn't picking up on your like subtle Japanese cues.
Like, yes, I am turning my head to the right and not looking in your face.
That means I am very angry right now.
(31:04):
And they're like, we're having some issues.
But he was just like, she's not looking at me. Okay.
Or I don't know what like, but you were you were giving him the signals.
You're the cultural signals that
you grew up with at home, but he wasn't picking them up. and vice versa.
He was coming with his cultural language, relationship language,
(31:25):
and it was like, whoa, this is too much.
Where is this coming from? I don't even know how to handle this.
You're right. And I think coming from such different backgrounds,
I really didn't know how to express
or communicate, really just how to communicate to each other in words.
(31:46):
He had just us come from Italy. So his English, it wasn't fluent and he couldn't
find the right words either.
So we were clashing a lot on just even finding the right words and trying to
communicate in a way that we both understand each other.
But my mom used the word growing up that I would which is kind of like.
(32:09):
I would kind of reject, like I would be the one that's like,
well, I don't want this because you're already like, I'm already assuming that
you're not going to understand.
So I will already bypass you. Like I will, whether it's rejecting or rejecting
the idea or just not acknowledging the fact that something is happening.
(32:32):
It's just this word that I tend to do in my actions where I just avoid or I'm like, nope.
Yeah. Like acting like you don't care when you really care. Right.
That's exactly the word. And that's the word for it in Japanese.
It's just one word. Tsuneru. Tsuneru, yeah.
So fast forward, you guys end up getting married.
(32:56):
And you were there. I was there. And then you end up getting divorced.
Fairly quickly, yes. It was very dramatic, very rough yes
so after that you're a little bit heartbroken you you
did a few other guys from other foreign countries
and let's let's get to the next kind of
(33:16):
big relationship which is a guy from Brazil also very different culture than
the Japanese kind of culture but also you have things in common right I remember
he seemed to be very like all about freedom like being really free, free,
free and relaxed and chill.
(33:38):
Like don't make a big deal out of things. Everything's chill.
I think that's where you guys clashed again.
It was like suddenly that Japanese side of you that needed structure and like
rules and a little bit of like frames around things.
And he was just kind of like, let's just flow with things. Right.
(33:59):
Am I saying it right? That was
one of the things that was a little bit challenging in that relationship.
I think so. Yeah. And mind you, the freedom, like he did commit,
you know, and he was just, he really opened my eyes. Exactly.
I think I just saw a new perspective from him and it was really,
(34:21):
it was really different from anything that I'd ever known.
You're right. It made me be like, oh, this very structural part of me is being
a little bit challenged and also just being open to these new ideas.
And with him though, it was very easy because we both value freedom.
(34:42):
Like in a way I am very much of like a freedom seeker and I need space and I
need that creativity moment.
And we had in common this salsa dance. That's how we met.
So we had this, art form that really bonded us together.
And then the love for travel. We would travel quite often.
(35:06):
You guys did the road. What is it called? Santiago's Road?
Camino de Santiago. Yeah, we
did. It was a big group. There was nine of us. So it wasn't just us two.
But yeah, we have a lot of commonality when it comes to making friends from all over the world.
And it was a great way for us to travel together.
So we, freedom, travel, freedom, those were like our key points.
(35:31):
But at one point he sort of like out freed you.
You were like this in this competition, like I'm very free.
Oh, I'm very free. No, I'm very free. And then at one point you were like,
okay, you're more free than me.
And there's a limit to how free I can be. and we need to like bring this home a little bit.
(35:51):
That, you could not have phrased that even better than me. Yes,
that is exactly what happened.
So before you guys parted ways, you took him to Japan. Oh, yes, I did.
And because it was one of your relatives' weddings, right?
Two cousins that were getting married basically a weekend apart from each other.
(36:15):
So we were able to attend to
both of them and I did take
him as my guest but the only
way that really he would be accepted into the very specific tea ceremony that
happens before the greet and meet between the two families was if I told my
(36:35):
family member that he was my fiance because that That is a very important aspect in the culture.
My family was like, hey, we have to respect that.
He has to be a very important family member.
And at the time, my sister had already been married. So her husband was a very easy introduction.
But for me, I had to kind of lie a little bit and tell my extended family that I had a fiance.
(37:04):
Music.
And I mean, at that point, you guys were living together and you were in a long-term
committed relationship.
But if you guys aren't engaged, if there's no ring or whatever,
(37:26):
like he's not formally committed to you, then he's not considered family.
Right. Going back, I think it was more for the other side of the family and
the tradition of When we each have to introduce ourselves to the other side
of the family, this is also what happens in the tea ceremony before the wedding at the venue.
(37:47):
And when I stood up to introduce myself, it's important to have a title, right?
I just can't be like, oh, this is just the boyfriend that I'm introducing to
this whole other side of the family.
It was just like if I had a title for him, aka like just I thought fiance would
be the easiest way to get by because being married is just.
(38:09):
What other titles are there? There's just fiance or married.
Or you're you're part of the family by some way.
So that was it. Yeah. But boyfriend is not. It's not enough.
Definitely not. For him to to be there. It's too loose.
Yeah, it's too loose. Yeah, it's interesting to see you kind of playing that
(38:30):
dance of trying to, you know, still respect and honor like the Japanese traditions.
But there is this sort of like, well, I still can't fully be me without offending
someone back in Japan. Right.
And I'm even asking my partner to like collaborate with me on this.
(38:53):
How did he feel about all of that? I'm just curious. Was he totally like,
OK, got it. I'll pretend to be your fiance for this week.
Or did he speak up and say, like, what are we doing here? hear?
I think a part of me wanted to spark that conversation early on because I wanted
to know and pick his brain.
(39:14):
But he was just down for it. His go lucky self, you know, he was like,
yeah, let's do it. If that's what will make it easier. Great.
So we kind of we kind of brush it off, you know? Yeah.
That Japanese side of you again was subtly trying to say, like,
are we going to be engaged for real?
(39:36):
Because here's an opportunity to make it official.
And he just I just went right over his head.
Yeah. In a way. In a way. Not not completely, because I did try to bring it up in other ways.
But it's definitely you're right.
You looked you turned your head to the other side and he didn't pick up on that.
(39:59):
No, I think it's just you're hitting a point where I definitely have these subtle gestures that...
I'm learning how to actually express it and communicate it better.
From what I've heard, Brazilian culture is actually very open about and expressive
of their feelings and like where they're at.
(40:19):
Right. In the culture, you know, once you start living with somebody that's
considered not married, but a partnership, like a legal partnership.
And you do get a status in Brazil of having some rights as a partner once you
start living together after a certain amount of years.
I can't remember exactly how many, but that is essentially like a marriage,
(40:45):
like a partnership, right?
Like a bond. And he had expressed to me, one of the biggest culture shock for
me was he was like, no, I've never lived with anyone.
I've never lived with a partner. And here I am already lived with most of my
partners that I was with.
So for him, it was a very big deal that we started living together. Interesting.
(41:07):
Yeah. So in his mind, he's like already a few steps farther than where you think
you're at with your relationship.
And you're coming from a place of like, well, but we're not engaged. We're like, well, wait.
I had to, I'm going to confess here. Oh, yes, you did.
Yes, you did too. People know this about me, but the listeners of the podcast
(41:30):
don't know this about me.
But I basically had to force my husband to marry me.
That doesn't sound like it isn't exactly that. But I didn't like explain.
Yeah. Matias, in his mind, he's like, we're together. What more do you want
than that? We're together.
And I was like, no, but we ain't married, you know. And coming from Israel,
(41:53):
like where there's a very strong wedding culture, it's like, you get married.
I mean, there are obviously people that don't and they just live together,
but the majority of people where I grew up, you know, you get married.
And then with my, you know, with
my mom, with her Catholic background and everything, it was like a must.
(42:14):
You guys better be getting married. Yeah. But also in Switzerland,
I mean, just based off of like friends of Matias that I know,
like, yeah, it's not a big deal to get married there.
It's perfectly natural and normal to be living with someone and buy a home with
someone and share your life with them. And like, that's that.
(42:35):
And people respect that and acknowledge that as like a solid relationship.
They don't need to see, you know, the ring or the marriage certificate.
Right, or the actual wedding and all the things, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Okay. So anyway, long story short, this relationship doesn't work out either.
You actually broke up not long after this whole Japan thing.
(42:58):
I mean, I think within maybe like six months or so.
Actually, yeah, you're right. Like eight months. Yeah, it was it was kind of
that I felt like that trip to Japan kind of brought a lot of things to the surface
where you maybe realize, like, maybe we're not on the same page here.
So fast forward to about a year ago, I'm in Israel for the holidays, as I always am.
(43:24):
And I get a text from mommy and she says to me, Hana.
Mommy calls me Hana, by the way, which I love. I do. So you were like,
Hannah, I have some major news to tell you and I need to get on the phone with
you. This is like really big.
Are you curious to hear what the big news was? Do you want to say it, mommy?
(43:49):
No, you can. okay so basically
we get on the phone and you proceed to
tell me that you are getting
back together with the man you divorced five years prior right or something
like that seven oh it'd been seven years seven years completely out of contact
(44:13):
and then you guys cross paths again in Brooklyn, New York.
At this point, you're living in New York again.
And yeah, I was definitely shocked.
Because I was like, what are you, what is happening? And you guys are still together.
It's been a year, over a year at this point. And you've been doing long distance.
(44:39):
He followed you to LA and then you moved back to New York.
And now he might be following you back to New York.
And so tell tell us
what changed and why you decided
to give it another go it wasn't one particular moment but you know through all
(45:00):
those point relationships and you start to really analyze or at least that's
what I did especially when I came back to New York that was during During pandemic,
it was, you know, we're all in lockdown.
We're all kind of figuring ourselves out. And I wasn't looking for this kind
(45:20):
of love for someone to give to me.
It was really a love that I needed to give to myself.
I think that's the evolution that it took. And once I really started to understand
all these hurts and traumas and so to speak,
you know, just events and happenings that would shape me and be so discerned
(45:43):
like that would, that is it.
That is who I am. I will never be with this kind of person or be in this kind of situation.
That all started to melt away when I really accepted and loved all the versions of me.
When I really started to accept that, a lot of things started to change, just.
In my life, you know, career-wise, what I was doing, the circle of friends I was having.
(46:07):
So in a way, it is like an unbelievable story that, you know,
this person that I really thought, I will never cross paths again.
I will never be in that kind of relationship again.
I mean, that was just me protecting myself. And 100%, I would not want to be
(46:27):
in that kind of situation for myself.
But at this time where I have changed, it's been really beautiful that I re-met
somebody in just a totally different time of our lives again.
And we are really helping each other grow into the best versions that we both
want for ourselves first.
And then it's actually working as a relationship. We are supporting each other.
(46:53):
And it's kind of like we finally took the best parts of our relationship when
we first found each other.
And now we're just incorporating this communication and both working on ourselves.
So it's been quite a journey, but also it really did have to start with my own
personal journey, understanding this Japanese side of me.
(47:15):
This part of me that I just didn't know I really wanted to learn more about. But that word happen.
The rejecting before they could reject me feeling.
So I just, I'm very grateful.
I think it's just all in all lesson that I'm learning and I'm continually shedding
(47:37):
and being so grateful for that
I get to heal a lot of my own beliefs and traumas with this person again.
It's really just been beautiful.
Music.
(48:00):
So how has your communication changed between when you were first together and
you were having some of these challenges because you were communicating differently?
How do you communicate now? In our own way, but I think we have both settled
into to who we are as a human.
So he knows that I will still take some time to express or show my discomfort,
(48:27):
but it's the work that I've been doing.
So it does clearly show in our communication style that I am expressing my thoughts
and emotions and feelings.
And he also has been.
I think seasoned, I think with time and the language and culture,
he too has become much more confident in communicating with me,
(48:51):
which in result for him makes him a lot more calmer.
He used to have that explosive dynamite personalities and expressiveness to
him, but we've really now both met each other in the middle. What else has changed?
Time. We just both needed to experience what we needed to experience.
(49:14):
I really believe that timing is everything.
And so I am grateful of everything that we had gone through,
but sometimes it's just timing, you know, and not having expectations and both of us really.
Communicating to that to each other.
And he understands who I am. I understand who he is. and we both are going towards a goal together.
(49:41):
And really it's our family bonding. Our families were really connected.
My family loved him. And even during our seven years of, I will say breakup,
but it was really just a complete silence for me.
There was some bond, you know, and we had similar family cultural values where
(50:03):
it was like a family unit's a family unit.
We both really come from the same background when it comes to how we were as
a family unit, how they are as a family unit.
And it just really, my family really loves his family.
And I think that's what also made it very solid for us to succeed at this moment. it.
Oh, it's kind of like you went on this journey of maybe going through these
(50:29):
different fears of like, what if I'm not accepted?
And if I'm not accepted, what do I need to change?
And kind of dating different people in maybe an attempt that it'll,
help fill in the gaps that you thought were missing or something.
And eventually ending up in a place where you were like, no,
nothing's missing. This is me. I love myself.
(50:51):
And it's just, I just need to work a little bit on my communication. Right.
And just not expecting, you know, them to understand what your language,
you know, these little subtle expressions, but it is great.
It was, it's been exactly that. I've really learned to accept everything as a whole.
(51:14):
And now that you've kind of learned to love and accept yourself more and also
learn to express yourself. It's in the works, yes.
So you're feeling like more confident about also reconnecting with your Japanese
side in like a healthier way.
(51:34):
Just tying it back to the beginning of our talk when you were saying you're
now in a place where you You want
to delve deeper into your Japanese background and maybe go live there.
Absolutely. Exactly that. It's not fear-based. It's not, oh, I'm going to get judged.
It's like, even if those things do happen and maybe those emotions will come
up, it's really just with a new light and a new pair of eyes.
(51:57):
And really, I'm super blessed. Is there a word for that in Japanese?
I'm sure there is. Is there a word for like transformation or?
Or Wabi Sabi sees the beauty in the imperfection and then accepts the change that is inevitable.
But that inevitable for me is the perfect change. It's perfect because we all need the change. Yeah.
(52:24):
So Wabi Sabi. Wabi Sabi.
Thank you, mommy, so much for talking to us about your love life.
What do you guys think about some of the things that came up today?
Have you dated someone outside of your culture and what was that like for you?
Do you have any thoughts, comments?
Or even stories that you would like to share with us, if you do,
(52:47):
please leave me a message at 323-524-8662.
Or you can email me at mixunderstoodpod at gmail.com.
You can either write an email that I'll read out or you can send me a recorded voice memo.
I'd love to hear from you. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it.
(53:09):
Please rate it. Please leave a review.
That would be so, so, so helpful.
And again if you'd like to support this podcast please
sign up in the patreon it would be so appreciated
thank you again mommy for being here big virtual hug any final words before.
Music.
(53:30):
We say goodbye no anna i'm just so proud of you for doing this and you know
this is my first time doing anything like this.
So it is very nerve wracking. And I'm, I'm very, very, very proud of you for
just having people come share their story and you're just killing it. So I'm a big supporter.
(53:51):
Thank you. It's been a real growth spurt for me to do this podcast.
So I feel really privileged to
do it. And thank you for holding my hand in opening episode of season two.
And I really can't wait to share the rest of the episodes with you guys.
I'm really excited about that. So I will see you here next week.
(54:12):
And for now, have a great rest of your day or evening wherever you are in the world. Bye.
Music.
Bye. This podcast was produced by me, editing by Fabio Esquivel and myself,
and music by Matthias Kuhnsley.
Welcome to Mixed Understood, where we talk about identity, the meaning of the
word race, and explore the multicultural and multiracial experience through
personal stories, candid conversations, and expert insights.
I'm your host, Hanalee Sakakibara. Thank you so much for being here today. Welcome to season two.
(00:23):
I wanted to focus this season on mixed dating, relationships,
marriage, and then go into to family dynamics and explore all the things from
parenthood to raising mixed kids to transracial adoption and so forth.
Before we begin, I want to give a few shout outs. First of all, to Dorothy Dundas.
(00:43):
Dorothy, if you're listening to this, I'm giving you a huge hug and a thank you.
Dorothy was the first person to sign up to the Mixed Understood Patreon.
Dorothy, you did it. You cracked the, what's the saying? You cracked the egg? Is that a saying?
You guys get what I'm saying. Thank you for that, Dorothy.
(01:04):
So you heard that right? Yes, I have a Patreon.
So if you've been enjoying listening to this podcast so far and you want to
help support me, support this, what we're doing here together,
I would deeply appreciate it.
You can sign up starting as low as $3.99 a month.
$3.99 a month, guys. That's less than a coffee, I think, these days.
(01:27):
And if you want to support more than that, there are also some perks involved.
So go have a look at the link. It's at the show notes and check out the Patreon.
I also wanted to thank my family and my husband who have been so supportive
and encouraging throughout this hosting transition.
And of course, to my wonderful friends who've listened to me brainstorm and
(01:49):
have given me advice on how to proceed. So So thank you so much.
Lastly, it's important to say that Mixed Understood is a space where stories,
ideas, and research are shared for your consideration, but it's for you to shape
your opinions in light of your own knowledge and experience.
My hope is to explore, learn, and grow together with you.
(02:09):
I don't claim to have all the answers. My aim is to start conversations around these topics.
All right, so in today's episode, I will be chatting over Zoom with my dear
friend-like family, Mami Alisa Sugita.
We'll be journeying together through her intercultural current and past relationships
and how they intersect with her
(02:29):
sense of identity and belonging as a first-generation Japanese-American.
It was a hard straddle between the two worlds, and for me, I think I dealt with
it as kind of pushing away that Japanese side of me, being like,
ah, I am, but I'm not fully.
There's no way I was going to suffer and to appease his family,
(02:52):
you know, pretty much change my personality.
Or if it was just even the clothing, I could only imagine what she would want out of me.
Music.
(03:14):
Mami Alisa Sugita! Hello! Welcome!
Let's give the listeners a few fun facts about our friendship and Mami.
So... Oh, yes. Mami helped me move.
I mean... I would say more than five, but about ten times. Like, that's...
(03:37):
Yes. And we're talking not just, like, moving, but storage moving.
Like, everything included. included everything.
So in my little smart car. Yeah, you had this tiny smart car.
I did not have a car the first few years I lived in LA.
And you were that angel friend that was willing to help me move again and again and again.
(03:58):
Like in three and a half years, I think I moved about 17 times.
No, really, it was kind of mind blowing. And to me, I got to see all the places.
It was really It was really nice because then I got to explore these different
neighborhoods you were moving into.
We had just moved to L.A., you know, too, at the same time.
So it was a really great excuse for me to see where you were living and also
(04:23):
check out, like, yeah, explore with you.
So if I am the one in this friendship that has moved a lot, like as far as apartments,
Mommy likes to move a lot globally.
She's a traveler.
Almost every time we talk, you're already telling me, I have a ticket.
I'm going to this. I'm going to that. I'm going to Spain. I'm going to France. I'm going to Colombia.
(04:46):
You went to Colombia to learn Spanish just for the sake of learning Spanish.
I was there probably just hitting about six months, right?
I have danced salsa for about 16 years now, socially.
And I've always loved the music. I've always been super involved with the dance,
(05:09):
but the language was the last part that hooked me.
And that year, there was a lot of things that have happened.
And I just decided, you know, why not learn a language in the country that I want to be in?
So Colombia was a country that I'd already been interested in.
My friend was living there.
(05:29):
And then it just all made sense in my head at that time to move to Colombia
to learn Spanish and to salsa dance and to just learn a new culture all together.
Yeah. Mommy's the kind of person that if you invite her, like if you live on
some remote island in the middle of nowhere, and you invite her to come over
(05:52):
for like your kid's fifth birthday,
she will show up.
Oh, hands down. I always tell everyone, I'm like, please don't send me an invitation
if you don't mean it, because I will come.
So your parents are Japanese, and they are immigrants.
(06:19):
They moved here when they were... My dad, when he was 17, so he finished high school.
He did a high school exchange student program in California.
And then my mom was visiting her brother years later when my mom met my dad.
And my mom was 22 years old.
And my dad at the time was 26 when they met. So they met, they got married,
(06:43):
and they settled down in Ohio.
Yeah, that's where I'm from. So you're the firstborn.
Yes. How was it like for you growing up with immigrant parents?
Who are, you know, have definitely kept strong Japanese traditions in the house.
They've taught you Japanese, which is amazing.
(07:05):
Yes. What was it like for you growing up? Right.
I was always, you know, my dad's work involved speaking to Japanese people and
being around that community.
So I was very blessed and grew up speaking and understanding the only channel
we had in the house. We didn't even have a TV for a while.
And then I remember when we did get one, it was connected to this one channel
(07:29):
in Japan that streams here in the U.S. called NHK.
And it's only really just like a Japanese network that has the news channel, has some kids shows.
And funny story, when my sister and I were growing up and we had a landline,
we had a voice recording machine to leave a message.
(07:50):
And instead of my parents, because because they had such thick Japanese accent,
they would ask us to leave the voice recording message.
Hi, welcome. And so they didn't feel as bad or we would order pizza,
but my sister and I would order it because they wouldn't understand what my parents were saying.
(08:10):
So just, it was just a very, they like to share the roles with us.
So we kind of felt like, ooh, responsible and like big kid.
I just can imagine like the pizza guy picking up the phone and you're like,
hello, I would like to order two watch pizzas with mushrooms and anchovies and
(08:31):
a little bit of pepperoni.
And can we get a large bottle of Coca-Cola? that?
It was really like, I don't know.
We just, it felt normal to us, I guess. But it is kind of funny to think what
the other person on the other line would have thought, like a little kid calling for an order.
But it was a great experience. And it was really nice to be involved.
(08:55):
Like, that was our family unit. You know, that was our family connection.
So you felt like, because I know a lot of kids of immigrants can sometimes feel that burden.
But it seems like in your case it
was like a privilege like you felt like I get to
be an adult I get to you know take
charge I'm feeling empowered right I
(09:15):
think it was just my personality too I just love to talk to people one of the
things I noticed about you is here's this chick she's coming at me like strong
like she has a lot of vocal strength like she has a deep chest voice.
And she's very animated and like big and like,
(09:37):
you know, a lot of women in Japan are a little bit, in general,
a lot of Japanese people I met, they're more reserved in their physical expressions and their voices.
A lot of the women's voices are usually higher pitched.
How is that when you, when you go to Japan and.
And you talk to people there. Do they kind of, are they, how do they react to you?
(10:01):
Right. That's the most interesting part about being both because I was able to speak.
So I think people were confused that my voice was not your traditional,
a little bit higher pitched.
It does have to do with culturally, just women are kind of expected to speak in that tone of voice.
But I would definitely get stares and glares. and it was actually very hard
(10:27):
because it felt like I wasn't already accepted in.
I was already looked as an outsider or someone very.
Like they couldn't figure me out who I was as I was speaking in Japanese in
a pretty fluent conversational way, but also not having the right mannerisms
that acted with my speaking level.
(10:49):
So it was tough. You know, it's that cultural immersion of the two where I am,
I have a little bit more of this outspokenness to me.
But at the same time, that Japanese side was struggling to figure out,
well, you can speak it, but you don't act it. So it was kind of a challenge
(11:10):
growing up, definitely.
And going back to Japan sometimes.
But also, I spoke English. So people clearly knew that I wasn't actually from
like a native Japanese speaker, which was nice.
But I think I am, I think this is the topic like I think I am facing today.
Like who I am rediscovering this other side of me.
(11:34):
What do you mean by that? I mean, I am ready to merge the two.
I have a curiosity for the first time into really exploring deep my Japanese
side and my Japanese culture that I grew up in, but I didn't necessarily want to explore before.
And it's kind of a new thing that's come up inside of me.
(12:00):
So, I mean, it sounds like you had a lot of Japanese culture in your life growing
up. Yes. But you want to take it to the next level? I think so.
Just moving there. I'm a very experiential. I love to experience life.
So I have been dabbling in my head to maybe move there, live there for just
(12:22):
like I did in Colombia, maybe six months, maybe a year.
No plan. But it is something on my mind that I would like to do just to really
embody and not have this fear base that I guess I had had in the past.
And now I'm just kind of ready to embrace this new outlook.
(12:43):
How did it feel? Yeah.
Straddling multiple worlds and feeling like
you're you're mostly a part of this but
like you're not exactly the same as your friends or your family right it it
was I guess everybody takes it you know in a different way but I I think for
(13:04):
me I had taken the parts that I loved meaning the food. I love the Japanese food culture.
I love just the, maybe the architecture and just the cultural part for looking
as like an outsider going to Japan.
It was beautiful, but it, it was a hard straddle between the two worlds.
(13:25):
And, and for me, I think I dealt with it as kind of pushing away that Japanese
side of me being like, ah, I am, but I'm not fully.
So So I'm just going to stick to this American side where I can kind of blend in.
And I had this pretty strong fear of not blending in with Japanese people as
(13:46):
far as when I was even in first grade when I went to Japanese school and I got
bullied and it kind of scarred me of like, oh, I don't fit in.
You know, that was like, I think the first moment I realized that I was different.
And as a whole, the Japanese community had a different view,
had a different lifestyle than what I had known.
(14:08):
So I guess in a way, it was a very interesting time of my life to straddle the two worlds.
So you went to Japanese school, which had mostly other people.
Japanese American kids. But of those kids, you were one of the few that kind
(14:28):
of immersed yourself more in American culture.
Is that why they bullied you? Because you weren't like 100% submerged in Japanese culture?
What I didn't realize, I took it at the time that I was different.
And yes, that I blended better in the American schools with just diversity or
just letting myself be free.
(14:50):
And it was just a very confusing time.
I think it's funny to think now that I got bullied because later on,
everyone told me, oh, this kid probably liked you.
And I was like, oh, that is not a way to show a first, you know what I mean? I'm six.
I don't know how old I was, but six or seven. And it was just a very, it was just aggressive.
(15:13):
It was just very passive in a Japanese way. And I think I didn't know how to,
you know, I can't remember exactly what it was, but I remember crying underneath my desk.
Like I'm not even, I don't like crying in front of people.
And here I was just, I think I was humiliated over something that he said in
front of the whole class or I have no idea, to be honest.
(15:36):
I don't remember that specifically, but.
But you were being like too outspoken for.
Probably. The environment. Ironman. Yeah. That I was in. Yes. Yes.
And have you felt the flip of that when you were like at school and in American school?
And were you did you fully blend in there? I fully blended in everyone.
(16:00):
It's more about individualism. I think in a Japanese school,
you have to kind of be more communal based.
So, you know, to not be so individualistic,
I guess, maybe that's not the right word, but I think it was,
it was just an easier environment for me to, to make friends and to be myself in that school.
(16:23):
Did you ever experience racism in your school growing up?
Honestly, I don't remember, or, you know, at that time, you just don't think that that's what it was.
But I think I grew up in a very mixed culture environment, or at least my community in Ohio.
(16:44):
Oddly, we had a lot of different Asian cultures.
We really had a mixed group of kids. So I don't think we even recognize it.
We don't talk about it like we do today, but it was a really great environment.
Music.
(17:06):
You know, in the 11 years that I've known you, I happened to notice that you
date international guys.
When I met you, you were dating an Italian guy and then you dated a Mexican
guy and then you dated a Brazilian guy.
And I and I have heard about your your exes. And I just thought It might be
(17:29):
nice to talk a little bit about your multicultural dating life.
Yes, even though I'm so private. But yes, I think there is a great theme to
some of these relationships of why I get into them.
Have you ever dated like a local American born guy?
(17:53):
Yes. Because all I know about is these international guys that are either visiting
or they're new immigrants to the country.
Yes, I have. The first boyfriend I had was from my school.
He was born and raised in Ohio, probably like a third, fourth generation,
(18:16):
just a normal American guy.
And, you know, we had more of a friendship than a romantic relationship is what I recognize now.
But yes, it was nice.
It was just that I think after him, I really didn't date any,
(18:38):
like I would say American born, but I think it's also because I left Ohio and
I moved straight to New York, which has a little more diversity as well.
So I would say that has a factor into it.
Okay. So Mami just now spoke in a very Japanese manner, which means you need
(19:00):
to read between the lines of what she said.
So let's just go back to what you said.
You said that you realized looking back that it was more of a friendship than
a romantic relationship.
So is this a secret or can we just say what happened?
No, you can say it. Because it wasn't the fact, that wasn't the factor, but yes, he is a gay man.
(19:27):
He is living his best life.
And I, you know, I didn't realize he didn't come out and I was his girlfriend at the time.
And so that kind of scarred you though a little bit?
Hmm. It was more so that it hurt my ego.
Like it was at that time, I didn't look at it as like, oh, you know, that's so great.
(19:54):
It was really like, oh, are people actually like find me attractive?
I think that was like a big ego bust for me. So.
So it was like, man, like I finally have this serious boyfriend and it's really cool.
And then you're like, wait a second. He wasn't He wasn't even actually attracted
(20:14):
or into me, potentially.
Right, because it was more of a deep friendship.
But that was, yes, it kind of, after that, it flipped me totally to another
genre of men, which was Asian men.
Like I dated, right after that, I dated like a Taiwanese guy and then right
(20:35):
into like a pretty serious relationship to a Japanese guy.
So it was more so of just going back to like a comfort zone maybe after that,
because we had similar cultures and I knew how they like showed their affection and love to me.
Okay. So you felt like, oh, I'm such an idiot.
(20:58):
I didn't recognize the social cues of the American culture because I grew up
with the Japanese culture's influence in my life. Of showing love,
right, of how love is shown.
And so now I'm like, I'm better off...
I'll be safer if I'm in a relationship where I understand the social cues of love. Exactly.
(21:21):
You're exactly explaining what I feel.
Which is actually really interesting because, yeah, the Japanese social cues
of love are like way more complicated to me than, you know. No,
because it's little acts of service.
It's... It's all about subtlety. It's subtle. Yes, it is subtle.
(21:42):
Crazy subtle and like
every little thing has meaning yes
where you sit how you sit the tone of your voice the tiniest physical gesture
like of just tapping someone on the shoulder is like a really big deal you don't
(22:03):
just you don't just touch the shoulder for no reason in.
It's intense. It can be really intense.
So how was it like dating? Was he a Japanese that also immigrated to the States
or was he living in Japan?
He was from Japan, but he was studying at the Ohio State University.
(22:26):
So he was just an exchange student.
I was visiting a friend at college and we just ran into each other at a bar.
We had mutual friends. He was saying hi to the friend that I was with.
And then he was like kind of, it was like that movie scene where he was like
going up the stairs and I was like going down the stairs.
And then time slowed down. It was just like that look, right? It was just a look.
(22:50):
And then we just kind of kept going. But then we found each other because we had mutual friends.
We found each other at another house party the following weekend.
It was just that kind of a love story.
So now you're like, okay, round two. I mean, I know there was also the Taiwanese
guy, but I haven't actually ever heard about the Taiwanese guy.
(23:12):
This is the first time I'm hearing about him. So it was in high school.
Yeah. So that wasn't like a big relationship, but I know that the Japanese guy, that was a big one.
Yes. So So how did that go? How did that work out for you?
It really, we really clicked. I understood how easy it was to be with him.
(23:32):
And he also spoke English.
So it was really nice that we could, he understood me, even if I couldn't speak
in the correct way, or if I was trying to explain myself, he would allow me
to explain it in English.
And we'd kind of figure it out, but kind of bilingually talk to each other. My parents loved him.
(23:54):
It felt like a fairy tale. It felt like, oh, this is perfect.
You know, this is who I'm supposed to end up with. That's how it felt like.
What I realized was, is that it was totally in my comfort zone.
It was just easy. That's all I could say. It was easy. So why did you break up? Well...
I had moved to New York already at that time. We were still together.
(24:19):
And he was finishing up his last year in Ohio at school.
And then he had to make a choice of whether to stay in the States or get a job in Japan.
And when we were making that decision, I had traveled to Japan with him that
year that he had graduated from college.
(24:40):
And I had met his family. family
now his dad is a very traditional
business guy his mom is just this
lovely bubbly person and
we got along very well but it was his grandmother that I met that I think left
(25:00):
me a scar again it was just she was very very old school traditional woman and
I remember it was summer and I was wearing a tank top and literally,
I don't know the exact translation,
but the word in Japanese is hade, meaning like you're showing too much skin essentially.
And she basically was judging what I was wearing already without even like meeting me.
(25:26):
And I just had this sense of like, oh, like my submissive Japanese side started
to come out and I was just like, okay.
I went and bought like a little cardigan to like, I felt ashamed,
you know, I felt ashamed slash embarrassed and...
That incident really kind of, I think, was a pinnacle moment in my decision
(25:50):
when he told me that he got a job offer in Japan and that he was going to live there.
And that would mean to continue our relationship, I would have to move to Japan
and essentially live in this household.
I would be living with his parents.
(26:10):
And I just knew at that moment in that time of my life, I was like, I can't do this.
There's no way I was going to suffer and to appease his family,
to pretty much change my personality.
Or if it was just even the clothing, I could only imagine what she would want out of me.
(26:31):
So it was just another reality check on me not fitting into the society.
I knew that wasn't part of my character at the time. I was like,
that's not what I want to be. That's not who I am.
And so it was a very difficult choice. So you were like, I can't be the typical,
like, Japanese submissive wife, right? Yeah. There's no way. Yeah.
(26:54):
And you felt that he was kind of expecting you to be that in a way or?
No, not at all. He is just, I think what was hard was we both knew,
but it was, again, a Japanese way where we couldn't face each other to say exactly our feelings,
you know, where he was like, you don't have to follow me, but this is what I need to do for me.
(27:18):
And I also was like, there's no way I can move there and start a new lifestyle or life, a way of life.
So we kind of just stopped talking to each other.
It was just a very gradual like, okay, this is done.
Interesting. Again, it was one of those things where I'm like,
(27:40):
oh, I'm trying, but I don't know, I hit like another block in this wanting to
be accepted and then kind of in my eyes being rejected.
Music.
So then you were like, I'm going to change things up.
(28:03):
I'm going to go like try to give it a go with someone from Italy. Correct.
Okay. So we're talking like very different cultures. Very.
But at this moment in my life, I was working in several restaurants and bars in New York City.
And I was really getting to meet people from all over the world.
(28:27):
So that was really exciting and felt like I was in the epicenter.
So I, this particular guy I met while I was working at a karaoke bar and he
had just landed like probably a few days prior or maybe over the week,
but I'll just say a few days prior is what I think.
That's kind of when I met you kind of around then when you were in a relationship
(28:52):
with him and he actually followed you and you moved to LA together.
And I got a glimpse into that relationship and I really got to see some of like
the cultural differences between you two, especially when it came to navigating
the challenges in the relationship.
How you guys dealt with conflict was very different.
(29:14):
And with your permission, I wanted to talk about it a little bit. Yes.
So talk to me. Oh, this is a tough one, but it's good. You're right.
My way of communicating at that time in my life was avoidance.
Non-confrontational. Exactly what I saw in my parents, you know?
(29:35):
It's very kind of, it's a little bit of cultural reference of Japanese people in general.
So it's just pleasing and not really disrupting.
And I feel like I was really trying to avoid a lot of the conflict until I couldn't, until I exploded.
But his was just the 180 opposite, you know, at that time.
(29:58):
Very explosive, very just in your face, so to speak.
Any little discomfort or arguments that was to be had was just an explosion.
So while that was happening, I would just turn my head the other way.
I didn't have even the guts to leave.
(30:19):
I would just avoid facing that situation. That's how I was.
Yeah. And it was also hard for you to express your needs.
Oh, absolutely. I couldn't even understand my emotions, actually.
I mean, I was sad or upset, but I was always just trying to avoid those feelings.
(30:42):
So I didn't know how to express when something was making me feel uncomfortable.
I would just kind of be like, okay, how do I escape this? How do I make it better?
How do I find the next best thing?
And he wasn't picking up on your like subtle Japanese cues.
Like, yes, I am turning my head to the right and not looking in your face.
That means I am very angry right now.
(31:04):
And they're like, we're having some issues.
But he was just like, she's not looking at me. Okay.
Or I don't know what like, but you were you were giving him the signals.
You're the cultural signals that
you grew up with at home, but he wasn't picking them up. and vice versa.
He was coming with his cultural language, relationship language,
(31:25):
and it was like, whoa, this is too much.
Where is this coming from? I don't even know how to handle this.
You're right. And I think coming from such different backgrounds,
I really didn't know how to express
or communicate, really just how to communicate to each other in words.
(31:46):
He had just us come from Italy. So his English, it wasn't fluent and he couldn't
find the right words either.
So we were clashing a lot on just even finding the right words and trying to
communicate in a way that we both understand each other.
But my mom used the word growing up that I would which is kind of like.
(32:09):
I would kind of reject, like I would be the one that's like,
well, I don't want this because you're already like, I'm already assuming that
you're not going to understand.
So I will already bypass you. Like I will, whether it's rejecting or rejecting
the idea or just not acknowledging the fact that something is happening.
(32:32):
It's just this word that I tend to do in my actions where I just avoid or I'm like, nope.
Yeah. Like acting like you don't care when you really care. Right.
That's exactly the word. And that's the word for it in Japanese.
It's just one word. Tsuneru. Tsuneru, yeah.
So fast forward, you guys end up getting married.
(32:56):
And you were there. I was there. And then you end up getting divorced.
Fairly quickly, yes. It was very dramatic, very rough yes
so after that you're a little bit heartbroken you you
did a few other guys from other foreign countries
and let's let's get to the next kind of
(33:16):
big relationship which is a guy from Brazil also very different culture than
the Japanese kind of culture but also you have things in common right I remember
he seemed to be very like all about freedom like being really free, free,
free and relaxed and chill.
(33:38):
Like don't make a big deal out of things. Everything's chill.
I think that's where you guys clashed again.
It was like suddenly that Japanese side of you that needed structure and like
rules and a little bit of like frames around things.
And he was just kind of like, let's just flow with things. Right.
(33:59):
Am I saying it right? That was
one of the things that was a little bit challenging in that relationship.
I think so. Yeah. And mind you, the freedom, like he did commit,
you know, and he was just, he really opened my eyes. Exactly.
I think I just saw a new perspective from him and it was really,
(34:21):
it was really different from anything that I'd ever known.
You're right. It made me be like, oh, this very structural part of me is being
a little bit challenged and also just being open to these new ideas.
And with him though, it was very easy because we both value freedom.
(34:42):
Like in a way I am very much of like a freedom seeker and I need space and I
need that creativity moment.
And we had in common this salsa dance. That's how we met.
So we had this, art form that really bonded us together.
And then the love for travel. We would travel quite often.
(35:06):
You guys did the road. What is it called? Santiago's Road?
Camino de Santiago. Yeah, we
did. It was a big group. There was nine of us. So it wasn't just us two.
But yeah, we have a lot of commonality when it comes to making friends from all over the world.
And it was a great way for us to travel together.
So we, freedom, travel, freedom, those were like our key points.
(35:31):
But at one point he sort of like out freed you.
You were like this in this competition, like I'm very free.
Oh, I'm very free. No, I'm very free. And then at one point you were like,
okay, you're more free than me.
And there's a limit to how free I can be. and we need to like bring this home a little bit.
(35:51):
That, you could not have phrased that even better than me. Yes,
that is exactly what happened.
So before you guys parted ways, you took him to Japan. Oh, yes, I did.
And because it was one of your relatives' weddings, right?
Two cousins that were getting married basically a weekend apart from each other.
(36:15):
So we were able to attend to
both of them and I did take
him as my guest but the only
way that really he would be accepted into the very specific tea ceremony that
happens before the greet and meet between the two families was if I told my
(36:35):
family member that he was my fiance because that That is a very important aspect in the culture.
My family was like, hey, we have to respect that.
He has to be a very important family member.
And at the time, my sister had already been married. So her husband was a very easy introduction.
But for me, I had to kind of lie a little bit and tell my extended family that I had a fiance.
(37:04):
Music.
And I mean, at that point, you guys were living together and you were in a long-term
committed relationship.
But if you guys aren't engaged, if there's no ring or whatever,
(37:26):
like he's not formally committed to you, then he's not considered family.
Right. Going back, I think it was more for the other side of the family and
the tradition of When we each have to introduce ourselves to the other side
of the family, this is also what happens in the tea ceremony before the wedding at the venue.
(37:47):
And when I stood up to introduce myself, it's important to have a title, right?
I just can't be like, oh, this is just the boyfriend that I'm introducing to
this whole other side of the family.
It was just like if I had a title for him, aka like just I thought fiance would
be the easiest way to get by because being married is just.
(38:09):
What other titles are there? There's just fiance or married.
Or you're you're part of the family by some way.
So that was it. Yeah. But boyfriend is not. It's not enough.
Definitely not. For him to to be there. It's too loose.
Yeah, it's too loose. Yeah, it's interesting to see you kind of playing that
(38:30):
dance of trying to, you know, still respect and honor like the Japanese traditions.
But there is this sort of like, well, I still can't fully be me without offending
someone back in Japan. Right.
And I'm even asking my partner to like collaborate with me on this.
(38:53):
How did he feel about all of that? I'm just curious. Was he totally like,
OK, got it. I'll pretend to be your fiance for this week.
Or did he speak up and say, like, what are we doing here? hear?
I think a part of me wanted to spark that conversation early on because I wanted
to know and pick his brain.
(39:14):
But he was just down for it. His go lucky self, you know, he was like,
yeah, let's do it. If that's what will make it easier. Great.
So we kind of we kind of brush it off, you know? Yeah.
That Japanese side of you again was subtly trying to say, like,
are we going to be engaged for real?
(39:36):
Because here's an opportunity to make it official.
And he just I just went right over his head.
Yeah. In a way. In a way. Not not completely, because I did try to bring it up in other ways.
But it's definitely you're right.
You looked you turned your head to the other side and he didn't pick up on that.
(39:59):
No, I think it's just you're hitting a point where I definitely have these subtle gestures that...
I'm learning how to actually express it and communicate it better.
From what I've heard, Brazilian culture is actually very open about and expressive
of their feelings and like where they're at.
(40:19):
Right. In the culture, you know, once you start living with somebody that's
considered not married, but a partnership, like a legal partnership.
And you do get a status in Brazil of having some rights as a partner once you
start living together after a certain amount of years.
I can't remember exactly how many, but that is essentially like a marriage,
(40:45):
like a partnership, right?
Like a bond. And he had expressed to me, one of the biggest culture shock for
me was he was like, no, I've never lived with anyone.
I've never lived with a partner. And here I am already lived with most of my
partners that I was with.
So for him, it was a very big deal that we started living together. Interesting.
(41:07):
Yeah. So in his mind, he's like already a few steps farther than where you think
you're at with your relationship.
And you're coming from a place of like, well, but we're not engaged. We're like, well, wait.
I had to, I'm going to confess here. Oh, yes, you did.
Yes, you did too. People know this about me, but the listeners of the podcast
(41:30):
don't know this about me.
But I basically had to force my husband to marry me.
That doesn't sound like it isn't exactly that. But I didn't like explain.
Yeah. Matias, in his mind, he's like, we're together. What more do you want
than that? We're together.
And I was like, no, but we ain't married, you know. And coming from Israel,
(41:53):
like where there's a very strong wedding culture, it's like, you get married.
I mean, there are obviously people that don't and they just live together,
but the majority of people where I grew up, you know, you get married.
And then with my, you know, with
my mom, with her Catholic background and everything, it was like a must.
(42:14):
You guys better be getting married. Yeah. But also in Switzerland,
I mean, just based off of like friends of Matias that I know,
like, yeah, it's not a big deal to get married there.
It's perfectly natural and normal to be living with someone and buy a home with
someone and share your life with them. And like, that's that.
(42:35):
And people respect that and acknowledge that as like a solid relationship.
They don't need to see, you know, the ring or the marriage certificate.
Right, or the actual wedding and all the things, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Okay. So anyway, long story short, this relationship doesn't work out either.
You actually broke up not long after this whole Japan thing.
(42:58):
I mean, I think within maybe like six months or so.
Actually, yeah, you're right. Like eight months. Yeah, it was it was kind of
that I felt like that trip to Japan kind of brought a lot of things to the surface
where you maybe realize, like, maybe we're not on the same page here.
So fast forward to about a year ago, I'm in Israel for the holidays, as I always am.
(43:24):
And I get a text from mommy and she says to me, Hana.
Mommy calls me Hana, by the way, which I love. I do. So you were like,
Hannah, I have some major news to tell you and I need to get on the phone with
you. This is like really big.
Are you curious to hear what the big news was? Do you want to say it, mommy?
(43:49):
No, you can. okay so basically
we get on the phone and you proceed to
tell me that you are getting
back together with the man you divorced five years prior right or something
like that seven oh it'd been seven years seven years completely out of contact
(44:13):
and then you guys cross paths again in Brooklyn, New York.
At this point, you're living in New York again.
And yeah, I was definitely shocked.
Because I was like, what are you, what is happening? And you guys are still together.
It's been a year, over a year at this point. And you've been doing long distance.
(44:39):
He followed you to LA and then you moved back to New York.
And now he might be following you back to New York.
And so tell tell us
what changed and why you decided
to give it another go it wasn't one particular moment but you know through all
(45:00):
those point relationships and you start to really analyze or at least that's
what I did especially when I came back to New York that was during During pandemic,
it was, you know, we're all in lockdown.
We're all kind of figuring ourselves out. And I wasn't looking for this kind
(45:20):
of love for someone to give to me.
It was really a love that I needed to give to myself.
I think that's the evolution that it took. And once I really started to understand
all these hurts and traumas and so to speak,
you know, just events and happenings that would shape me and be so discerned
(45:43):
like that would, that is it.
That is who I am. I will never be with this kind of person or be in this kind of situation.
That all started to melt away when I really accepted and loved all the versions of me.
When I really started to accept that, a lot of things started to change, just.
In my life, you know, career-wise, what I was doing, the circle of friends I was having.
(46:07):
So in a way, it is like an unbelievable story that, you know,
this person that I really thought, I will never cross paths again.
I will never be in that kind of relationship again.
I mean, that was just me protecting myself. And 100%, I would not want to be
(46:27):
in that kind of situation for myself.
But at this time where I have changed, it's been really beautiful that I re-met
somebody in just a totally different time of our lives again.
And we are really helping each other grow into the best versions that we both
want for ourselves first.
And then it's actually working as a relationship. We are supporting each other.
(46:53):
And it's kind of like we finally took the best parts of our relationship when
we first found each other.
And now we're just incorporating this communication and both working on ourselves.
So it's been quite a journey, but also it really did have to start with my own
personal journey, understanding this Japanese side of me.
(47:15):
This part of me that I just didn't know I really wanted to learn more about. But that word happen.
The rejecting before they could reject me feeling.
So I just, I'm very grateful.
I think it's just all in all lesson that I'm learning and I'm continually shedding
(47:37):
and being so grateful for that
I get to heal a lot of my own beliefs and traumas with this person again.
It's really just been beautiful.
Music.
(48:00):
So how has your communication changed between when you were first together and
you were having some of these challenges because you were communicating differently?
How do you communicate now? In our own way, but I think we have both settled
into to who we are as a human.
So he knows that I will still take some time to express or show my discomfort,
(48:27):
but it's the work that I've been doing.
So it does clearly show in our communication style that I am expressing my thoughts
and emotions and feelings.
And he also has been.
I think seasoned, I think with time and the language and culture,
he too has become much more confident in communicating with me,
(48:51):
which in result for him makes him a lot more calmer.
He used to have that explosive dynamite personalities and expressiveness to
him, but we've really now both met each other in the middle. What else has changed?
Time. We just both needed to experience what we needed to experience.
(49:14):
I really believe that timing is everything.
And so I am grateful of everything that we had gone through,
but sometimes it's just timing, you know, and not having expectations and both of us really.
Communicating to that to each other.
And he understands who I am. I understand who he is. and we both are going towards a goal together.
(49:41):
And really it's our family bonding. Our families were really connected.
My family loved him. And even during our seven years of, I will say breakup,
but it was really just a complete silence for me.
There was some bond, you know, and we had similar family cultural values where
(50:03):
it was like a family unit's a family unit.
We both really come from the same background when it comes to how we were as
a family unit, how they are as a family unit.
And it just really, my family really loves his family.
And I think that's what also made it very solid for us to succeed at this moment. it.
Oh, it's kind of like you went on this journey of maybe going through these
(50:29):
different fears of like, what if I'm not accepted?
And if I'm not accepted, what do I need to change?
And kind of dating different people in maybe an attempt that it'll,
help fill in the gaps that you thought were missing or something.
And eventually ending up in a place where you were like, no,
nothing's missing. This is me. I love myself.
(50:51):
And it's just, I just need to work a little bit on my communication. Right.
And just not expecting, you know, them to understand what your language,
you know, these little subtle expressions, but it is great.
It was, it's been exactly that. I've really learned to accept everything as a whole.
(51:14):
And now that you've kind of learned to love and accept yourself more and also
learn to express yourself. It's in the works, yes.
So you're feeling like more confident about also reconnecting with your Japanese
side in like a healthier way.
(51:34):
Just tying it back to the beginning of our talk when you were saying you're
now in a place where you You want
to delve deeper into your Japanese background and maybe go live there.
Absolutely. Exactly that. It's not fear-based. It's not, oh, I'm going to get judged.
It's like, even if those things do happen and maybe those emotions will come
up, it's really just with a new light and a new pair of eyes.
(51:57):
And really, I'm super blessed. Is there a word for that in Japanese?
I'm sure there is. Is there a word for like transformation or?
Or Wabi Sabi sees the beauty in the imperfection and then accepts the change that is inevitable.
But that inevitable for me is the perfect change. It's perfect because we all need the change. Yeah.
(52:24):
So Wabi Sabi. Wabi Sabi.
Thank you, mommy, so much for talking to us about your love life.
What do you guys think about some of the things that came up today?
Have you dated someone outside of your culture and what was that like for you?
Do you have any thoughts, comments?
Or even stories that you would like to share with us, if you do,
(52:47):
please leave me a message at 323-524-8662.
Or you can email me at mixunderstoodpod at gmail.com.
You can either write an email that I'll read out or you can send me a recorded voice memo.
I'd love to hear from you. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it.
(53:09):
Please rate it. Please leave a review.
That would be so, so, so helpful.
And again if you'd like to support this podcast please
sign up in the patreon it would be so appreciated
thank you again mommy for being here big virtual hug any final words before.
Music.
(53:30):
We say goodbye no anna i'm just so proud of you for doing this and you know
this is my first time doing anything like this.
So it is very nerve wracking. And I'm, I'm very, very, very proud of you for
just having people come share their story and you're just killing it. So I'm a big supporter.
(53:51):
Thank you. It's been a real growth spurt for me to do this podcast.
So I feel really privileged to
do it. And thank you for holding my hand in opening episode of season two.
And I really can't wait to share the rest of the episodes with you guys.
I'm really excited about that. So I will see you here next week.
(54:12):
And for now, have a great rest of your day or evening wherever you are in the world. Bye.
Music.
Bye. This podcast was produced by me, editing by Fabio Esquivel and myself,
and music by Matthias Kuhnsley.
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