May 23, 2023 • 56 mins
**Content Warning** for discussion of sexual harassment and assault. We do not include any graphic or detailed descriptions, but they are discussed in general terms throughout the episode.
Today’s episode looks a little different from our usual format. Laura talks with a good friend from UC Santa Cruz, K, about our participation in an organizing campaign against faculty sexual harassment and assault that ultimately led to the firing of a tenured professor.
Between 2017 and 2019, students and allies at UC Santa Cruz organized to bring attention to what they called a pattern of sexual harassment perpetrated by History of Consciousness professor Gopal Balakrishnan.
In this discussion, we reconstruct the timeline of events that ultimately led to Balakrishnan’s firing in 2019. We also talk about our experiences with the Title IX office at UC Santa Cruz, why we believe Title IX was so unhelpful, our experiences with feminist and leftist faculty, the importance of "gossip" as feminist knowledge sharing, and the emotional labor that goes into organizing against sexual harassment and sexual assault. Ultimately, our conclusion is that feminist organizing and direct action are needed to challenge sexual harassment and sexual assault within academia.
Relevant links for more info on the Balakrishnan case:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nidhisubbaraman/gopal-balakrishnan-fired-santa-cruz
Links for info on two other professors referenced in the interview (associated with New Left Review):
https://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-ucla-sexual-misconduct-piterberg-20180318-story.html
You can find us on Instagram @officehourshighered and Twitter @officehoursed.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
Hello and welcome to today's episode of Office Hours.
Today's episode is gonna look a little different from our usual format.
I will be talking with a good friend of mine,
Kay about our participation in an organizing campaign against faculty,
sexual harassment and assault that ultimately led to the firing of a tenured professor.
(00:38):
I want to give a content warning here at the top for discussion of sexual harassment and assault.
We don't include any graphic or detailed descriptions,
but they are discussed in general terms throughout the episode between 2017 and 2019 students and allies at U C Santa Cruz organized to bring attention to what they called a pattern of sexual harassment perpetrated by a history of consciousness,
(01:01):
Professor Gopal Balakrishnan Kay and I participated in some of this organizing,
they as a student and then an alum and I as an alumni along with many undergrad and grad students,
other alumni and members of the Bay Area radical left.
Although we don't cover it in our discussion.
Our participation was motivated in part by the experiences we both had with Bala Krishnan as students of his and as acquaintances who often socialized with him through shared university and radical left networks.
(01:34):
In this discussion,
we reconstruct the timeline of events that ultimately led to Balakrishnan firing in 2019.
We also talk about our experiences with the Title Nine Office at U C Santa Cruz.
Why we believe Title Nine was so unhelpful our experiences with feminist and leftist faculty,
the importance of gossip as feminist knowledge sharing and the emotional labor that goes into organizing against sexual harassment and sexual assault.
(02:02):
Ultimately,
our conclusion is that feminist organizing and direct action are needed to challenge sexual harassment and sexual assault within academia before going into our discussion.
However,
I do want to provide a brief chronology of events here since it gets a little complicated.
And Kay and I get sidetracked in our discussion a number of times.
(02:24):
So in early 2017,
buoyed by the Me Too movement undergrads began organizing against Bala Krishnan stories of negative experiences with him had been circulating for years.
And now students began a campaign in which they wrote messages about his behavior on bathroom walls called for a boycott of his class on Women's Day and wrote letters to Humanity's Faculty about his behavior which they slipped under faculty doors throughout the spring of 2017,
(02:55):
undergrad and grad students filed a wave of title nine complaints against Balakrishnan.
Then in November 2017 weeks after the Harvey Weinstein allegations became public,
an anonymous group published a public letter that included seven anonymous descriptions of first person experiences with Balakrishnan ranging from uncomfortable encounters to harassment to one instance of attempted assault.
(03:22):
The letter which asked that Balakrishnan not be welcome in organizing spaces was signed by hundreds of people in May 2018,
Buzzfeed published an investigative piece on the accusations against Balakrishnan.
And the anonymous letter in this piece,
former undergraduate student,
Annelise Harlander came forward as a victim of sexual assault by Balakrishnan.
(03:45):
Back in 2013,
Highlander also then filed a title nine claim against Balakrishnan and the university subsequently reopened its investigation into previous claims.
In September 2019,
Balakrishnan was fired from his position at U C Santa Cruz after a vote by the Board of Regents,
(04:07):
the only case of a tenured professor being fired from U CSC in the last 20 years.
If you're interested in a more detailed timeline and description of these events,
we'll provide links in the show notes to two pretty substantive articles published by buzzfeed.
Let's turn now to my discussion with Kay just to set the stage for the conversation.
(04:31):
I introduce Kay briefly and then we jump right to our involvement in 2017.
We became involved after the undergrad campaign began when a humanities faculty email condemning student organizing against Balakrishnan was leaked to the student body.
You'll hear Kay briefly mention the graffiti and letters to faculty and then we start talking about the faculty email.
(05:08):
So Uh Let me introduce our guest today.
Their name is Kay.
They're an old friend of mine,
we met during the student movement at U C Santa Cruz around 2009.
Uh We have been involved in feminist organizing together anti repression work and they are currently involved in similar stuff,
feminist,
(05:29):
anti repression and anti police organizing.
So welcome,
Kay,
welcome.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
Um So we wanted to start off by kind of trying to reconstruct the student organizing campaign.
Yeah.
After the graffiti and then letters were slipped under,
(05:51):
then it became this sort of thing that was the faculty had to respond to,
right?
And what really like was this big,
it kind of made it public was that faculty had been having an internal email thread in response to this and they didn't even realize that graduate students were on this thread because guess what faculty,
(06:14):
forget the graduate student workers exist and um,
a graduate student leaked it.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I do.
And,
and the content of this email thread was really shocking to a lot of people because it revealed that a lot of faculty and not to name names here.
(06:36):
But we're talking about eminent feminist critics of,
you know,
institutional power.
Um We kind of really using the rhetoric of witch hunts and,
you know,
well,
why didn't they do this the official way?
And I,
I think it's probably worth noting at this point that this is happening in the midst of me too.
(06:59):
And it's probably part of why,
you know,
undergrads felt empowered at that moment to do what they were doing.
So I just feel like there's an extra resonance to people to hear this stuff coming from the mouths of faculty.
And if you don't mind,
I will just read a couple quotes from the email thread just not attached to any names.
But um just to give you a sense of what,
(07:21):
you know,
how,
how people were talking in a forum where they thought they were not being viewed,
you know,
not,
not being watch.
Um,
so let's see.
Uh,
such a campaign threatens us all faculty staff and students alike insofar as it seeks to condemn by rumor,
insinuation and repetition.
There are procedures in place on our campus and in our courts to address the grievances we have against one another and these sorts of anonymous accusations impede the proper functioning of those channels.
(07:53):
Another one in times where anonymity has replaced principle,
we need to take a stand against such campaigns.
Another one,
if the accusers believe they have a legitimate case,
they should file formal charges and the accused should have an opportunity to defend himself.
If we give up the principle of innocent until proven guilty,
(08:13):
we are in danger of devolving into witch hunts.
And then another one which just bothers me as a historian because it says as someone who spent his professional career studying Europe,
I believe the evil of anonymous denunciation is particularly acute.
So it's,
I mean,
it's just like,
it's kind of interesting to like here,
(08:34):
this is literally the same national and international conversation that's happening at this exact moment around me too.
Right.
And women coming forward or annoy writing anonymous statements that,
you know,
they're up with their identities not being,
you know,
publicly revealed about prominent men.
And the same kind of logic is being replicated here in this email thread,
(08:58):
right?
Yeah.
And I think I just,
I don't know for those of you who don't know as like much about Santa Cruz,
I think what's particularly upsetting and even like for was surprising is that as Laura said,
like Santa Cruz,
the the the departments from which these comments were coming from are literally like Marxist and feminist scholars who like,
(09:24):
like I are teaching classes that are literally about like feminist organizing about like anti capitalism,
anti state,
like teaching classes about gender violence,
teaching about the Me too movement,
you know.
So it's like,
it's,
I think it's interesting because uh maybe I think there was maybe a hope or a sort of trust that some of these professors would be allies in this.
(09:55):
Um Not all I think particularly like for those of us organizing already had a bit of a disillusionment about like these male,
like Marxist professors who a lot of them were doing some kind of messed up like gendered behaviors.
But I do think there was a little bit of an expectation of some difference and that was really disappointing and just like,
(10:19):
pretty disgusting to be like one of the things Laura,
when you were talking that I thought about is just,
there was no even all of the the assumption was that these were mal intentioned.
It was like,
maybe people are doing this because Title Nine didn't listen to them or because this isn't,
(10:40):
you know,
just so much,
you know,
narrative that is assuming that if you're shouting out using this strategy,
then this must mean you didn't,
you haven't tried anything else,
you know,
and you're,
and,
and actually,
we do know now um that many Title nine claims had individually been submitted against,
(11:01):
against Gopal um at by that time.
So,
you know,
students already had reason to feel that institutions had failed them and just to add Kay to what you said,
I mean,
and we'll talk about this more when we kind of talk about our like our emotional responses and,
and what it was like being involved.
Um There was a,
(11:22):
a feeling of,
of betrayal and kind of hurt,
you know,
on the part of just some of the professors reactions,
but also kind of like being incredulous because as you said,
like these are people whose job have made a career on like critiquing institutions and then to see them 11 email after another just say there are procedures in place,
(11:46):
you know,
they,
they should file formal,
formal charges.
Um There's one that I didn't even read,
which said if a complaint of harassment or assault were properly filed,
it should be processed according to our procedures.
And I'm certain that would be done like,
oh,
I'm certain the pro the procedures would work,
you know.
So it says to me and we'll talk about this more like there's a lot to say about the position of tenured faculty,
(12:12):
especially at elite,
you know,
relatively elite institutions like the U C and,
you know,
on the one hand being workers,
but on the other hand,
having so much power and the hierarchical nature of academia where they're really identifying,
you know,
very strongly with the institution and believing it is something that works and has worked for them.
(12:32):
So it's gonna work for others,
you know.
Yeah.
And the idea that if,
if questioning an institution is a threat to their comfort,
then all of a sudden their narrative about depending and trusting on those other people,
trusting and using those institutional um avenues changes.
(12:53):
Totally.
Yeah,
for me.
So at this point,
I I was like looking back over old emails and I had actually forgotten how much work people started doing at this time because some members of the graduate student union actually worked to get a statement,
you know,
from uh passed by the our chapter,
you know,
the U C Santa Cruz chapter in support of the student organizers.
(13:16):
And um basically,
you know,
condemning or,
you know,
calling out the the faculty email thread,
I believe the graduate student assembly also,
you know,
passed a resolution.
So already,
like there really were,
I mean,
because one of the things I think basically,
like we're trying to emphasize with this episode is just how many people worked really hard um to get goal fired and how much work it took.
(13:43):
But also like how many people cared and how many people made the effort and but also just how much,
how many people it takes to get just one outcome like this.
And I also think that for a lot of us who had been around this,
you know,
I think there was this level of just like,
what's the point?
Nobody is going to take this seriously.
(14:05):
And so it felt like this forever open secret.
And I think for a lot of us who had graduated and had experienced tons of misogyny and sexism and in the student movement and just with those professors,
um particularly goal,
what felt really,
I,
(14:25):
I think really wanted to support the undergrad who came forward and also like,
felt inspired and felt like,
and I think what you said in this moment of me too,
it felt like this might actually be a moment where we could jump off of the fact that it's becoming so public and really do something.
(14:46):
And I also think maybe the anxiety that the way that the public response was so big also was probably about me too,
that it wasn't a moment that people could take something like this lightly.
And I think we said,
well,
let's really go with that and let's also like honor that these undergrads did this really,
like kind of more militant thing and,
(15:08):
and build on that.
And so I think,
um,
I don't know what happened next is I,
I was gonna talk about title the Title nine claims,
but did you Yeah,
why don't you go ahead?
Because,
because I,
because yeah,
there was another wave of submitting title nine claims right around this time.
Yeah,
I think that two things happened where I think a lot of us were like,
(15:29):
well title nine is probably not gonna fucking work.
Oh Am I allowed to curse on this?
I don't know.
Yeah.
OK.
Um But let's,
you know,
they're saying that we need to use these avenues.
So one of the things that we can do to support is we can make title nine claims because so many of us had,
(15:50):
you know,
different experiences with Gopal and or new people who did.
So a bunch of us started not only reaching out ourselves but also,
you know,
as Laura said,
so many people got involved in this.
People started like reaching out to tons of different people who'd been in contact with Gopal as you know,
students and asking them to make,
(16:12):
to,
to file title nine and um claims and we spoke to somebody,
this was kind of wild but they,
they said,
ok,
you can make anonymous claims.
So we were because,
and,
and that can,
um,
it can be investigated or something and it can be investigated.
So we were kind of trying to build an investigation and so so many people were calling in,
(16:35):
um,
which eventually I think we're gonna get into more of this later,
like basically nothing panned out.
Um which was obviously frustrating,
but kind of was as expected.
Yeah,
but wait,
can I just make a comment?
Just that I was thinking as you're,
as you're saying this,
I mean,
I think part of what also stands out to me is that we're already building on like an existing culture of sharing knowledge because like another thing that I think is an important lesson is like this whole idea of gossip,
(17:07):
you know,
which comes up a lot when people talk about me too,
you know,
and,
and definitely was something that we were accused of.
Um It's basically like years and years of people knowing and interacting with Gopal being ha and having stories like,
oh,
don't you remember when this person told us that their friend,
you know,
had this experience with Gopal?
(17:28):
Hey,
let's track,
let's call this person.
Let's see if we can track that person down,
see if they're willing to come forward.
Like there was so much just drawing on all of this like quote unquote gossip,
like informal knowledge,
which is just part of like feminist sharing that we do to keep each other safe,
you know.
And so that was a big part of how we were able to bring forward title nine claims.
(17:52):
And also when we get to it,
like the letters that were the letter public letter that was later written was just that we had already like taken the time to consider this type of sharing important,
you know.
Yeah.
And I think that that,
yeah,
that's a really good point and an important point.
And I do think that that's something then it just felt like we share with each other to keep each other safe.
(18:15):
But it,
it wasn't until this point.
And for all those reasons,
we've discussed that it felt like anyone else was really listening so that something else could happen besides us just saying,
like kind of steer clear of that guy,
you know,
um which felt like a very specific moment.
And um,
(18:36):
yeah,
so a lot of those statements were similar things that people made title nine claims about and what,
what it kind of came out with title nine kept saying these aren't,
these aren't bad enough,
they don't meet the criteria.
There was,
there were various things,
it was either this happened off campus,
(18:56):
so it's not relevant or this person,
this person wasn't a student or this person,
you know,
this doesn't meet the threshold or something or giving like conflicting things like,
oh yes,
you can make an anonymous claim and then being like,
we're sorry,
but all the claims that have made are been made are anonymous so they can't be investigated.
(19:17):
And then people having to like re reach out to people and be like,
are you willing to go on the record with your name?
Which obviously is a scary thing to do for,
you know,
some people were willing and some people weren't.
So at first,
I think a lot of people actually felt like their interactions with the title nine officer.
(19:38):
They actually felt kind of like she was an ally and we'll get to this more when we talk about like our take on how Title nine works.
But she,
it then turned out that she really was giving conflicting information to different people and then she was leaking some stuff to,
you know,
she was telling faculty various,
you know,
things.
Well,
(19:58):
we can't move forward because no one's willing to go on the record and,
you know,
so that was part of the thing.
Yeah,
I'm,
I'm struggling to not just jump right into the title nine stuff.
So I guess we can,
we'll come back to it,
but it definitely felt like um we were realizing that this avenue was not going to work because it wasn't fitting these specific things.
(20:23):
So I think that we had collected all of this information and we had been talking to people and,
you know,
building this network really of,
you know,
women and non-binary people to us.
We felt,
well,
let's do something with this.
If Title Nine is not going to take us seriously,
(20:44):
then let's do our own thing,
which,
which amounted to us actually kind of making,
like,
writing out.
I think how many people,
I don't know how many people made testimonies,
but I think eight or nine anonymous testimonies.
Yeah,
I'll,
I'll look while you keep talking,
I'll look about experiences with goal um as students and,
(21:06):
or grad students or,
you know,
um and we made that public and we got,
we started um collecting signatures and we also made it open and said anyone we'd like,
you know,
if anyone else has other experiences,
(21:27):
please contact us.
And so one,
this was literally a few weeks after um the Harvey Weinstein stuff came,
came out.
So,
you know,
it felt like it was,
you know,
was really in the height of me too.
These things were being taken seriously on a wider scale.
(21:48):
And so it started being passed around and I think one was to just get the public attention,
forcing the university to act and two in the hopes that it would also reach other people and um other women and non-binary people and queer people who had had experiences with Gopal to connect with us and to keep building this movement against him.
(22:14):
So it kind of served two purposes in that way.
Yeah,
I,
I see that there's seven tax crimes there.
Yeah.
And then that letter kind of made a splash.
It was controversial.
Um,
it was controversial.
You know,
there was a,
it seemed like some people really thought this was going too far and particularly because the statements were anonymous.
(22:39):
Um,
and the state,
the letter was asking basically the letter,
if you look at it was not asking for goal to be fired or anything,
it was specifically like speaking to the radical community,
right?
And sort of like the left or whatever that goal is part of and just saying whatever,
(23:02):
you know,
the university's values might be whatever their title nine rules are.
We know what our values are.
And the these statements show a pattern of someone who um has committed harm,
you know,
repeatedly.
And so I think we were calling on a kind of a tried and true feminist tactic of this person shouldn't be welcome in our spaces,
(23:27):
you know,
so that I guess that was controversial to people.
I mean,
in a lot of ways,
I feel like,
yeah,
we,
we weren't even demanding that he be fired.
We were just asking for accountability,
like within our community,
considering that goal was somebody who we actually socialized with and who would had like kind of like political and social connections,
(23:51):
you know,
in the kind of like radical left,
you know,
he's on that.
He was on the editorial board of the new Left Review and published by Verso.
We'll get to that later too.
But I do want to get to that.
And I think like one thing that it is important we talk about is like we,
yeah,
why it was taking so long to like make this call out and why it felt why it was so controversial,
(24:16):
you know,
and not just amongst professors and amongst people who work for U C Santa Cruz,
but also amongst like leftists who maybe have a stake in academia or sort of like the,
the publishing world and,
and these sort of other leftist institutions.
But this sort of like power that Gopal has as a professor and as a Marxist in this sort of kind of like,
(24:43):
you know,
the,
the sort of like social power that he had in these radical communities that and I think this happens a lot with,
for,
for um that there's a sort of like extra thing that if you wanna be calling out like sexism or like harassment.
(25:05):
It's like people who you might align with,
who are like anti capitalists or won't side with you because you're now calling out somebody who's in your movement who's,
oh,
he's,
your movement already feels like fragile enough and under attack.
So it's like,
yeah,
you're dividing the movement and like,
he was supportive of the student movement when we were younger.
(25:28):
And,
you know,
years before.
And so it felt very difficult to make that those claims.
And so again,
this was a specific moment where and I guess it,
it came up because I was thinking about you talking about the anonymity and thinking about people being so critical of it being anonymous and people not understanding why and people not really understanding like it,
(25:51):
it felt important for it to be a collective thing that we are bringing forward and that people had a hard time coming forward individually and publicly,
you know.
Yeah,
there was a lot at stake.
Yeah,
a lot at stake.
Scary to people.
Yeah.
Um OK,
so it seems like it was after that,
(26:14):
that goal was actually put on leave in the fall of 2017,
but he was still getting paid,
obviously getting paid a lot.
Um Then there was more,
you know,
there were more title nine claims because what started to happen after this letter was that a lot of people started writing in to,
(26:34):
you know,
I think,
I think the the people who go to the letter had like provided an email address,
like if you have had any,
you know,
encounters with Gopal that you wanna share and a lot of people started writing in and sharing stuff.
And um so,
you know,
people started creating kind of like a spreadsheet and reaching out to people and collecting statements and then,
(26:58):
um I think it was sometime around this time,
you know,
I,
I don't know that the timeline starts to get a little confusing but there,
there was a buzzfeed um journalist who reached out to someone who was involved and was interested in writing a piece about it clearly,
obviously from a me too angle.
(27:21):
Me too in higher ed,
you know,
and that was kind of like one of the stories that was going on at the time of there were a few professors,
I remember there was someone at U C Berkeley,
maybe like an astronomy prove there was someone at U C L A,
like there were a few professors that were really being investigated and there was,
there was kind of like media attention on at this time that was kind of like trying to bring the me too story into higher ed.
(27:46):
So this buzzfeed journalist was interested in a piece.
Um And so a few of us worked with this journalist to try to,
you know,
find um more accounts,
you know,
um I do wanna say a couple of things like one of the,
one of the um professors who I won't name,
(28:08):
but one of the professors who was not supportive of femi prominent feminist faculty uh had said something about how well,
you know,
she didn't support the student activism.
What she would like to see is a really good investigative journalistic account.
And so when this account was published,
(28:30):
she supported it.
But I just want to say that the account would never have been written and the journalist would never have reached out and there would have been no basis for it if that organizing hadn't happened.
So that was also hurtful because um it felt like these faculty members wanted things in a way to be nice and clean in a way that didn't involve um them having to do anything unpleasant or um have to acknowledge the reality of what organizing is like,
(29:10):
you know,
um they just wanted,
oh OK,
these professionals will come in these quote unquote experts who they were willing to consider to be more objective um because their sources are vetted,
et cetera,
et cetera without like recognizing that,
you know,
we had to do a lot of work in order to like create that context,
(29:30):
you know,
definitely.
And I,
I mean,
it's just like such a classic,
like aist historical,
like liberalizing of,
of any social change that happens,
you know,
that's like,
oh,
you know,
just ignore any of the militancy that that pushed for like a larger scale attention or like that pushed for,
(29:53):
you know,
the the meager changes that we do get from institutions are force to take these actions.
And it's like,
yeah,
but if nobody was doing these like,
you know,
militant things or pushing for this direct action and putting that pressure,
none of that would happen.
So it's just,
it's so classic,
right?
Um I,
I also want to say like with the buzzfeed article,
(30:15):
you know,
what ended up happening and I don't wanna dwell on her because we haven't spoken with her or gotten any like,
you know,
consent from her to really talk about her case.
But what ended up happening was that someone did come forward,
her name is public.
So Annelise Harlander,
um I think I'm saying that right?
(30:37):
And you can,
you know,
read more about her case,
but basically she came forward with an account that I would say kind of like it's,
you know,
it's,
it's a little bit hard to kind of know to,
to think about it,
but it like it basically,
it met that kind of like criteria for,
I think what a journalist and what the general public wanted to see in terms of a,
(31:02):
like a me too case that was actionable,
you know,
I felt like the journalist was really kind of waiting for that kind of story to come forward.
Probably like,
I'm guessing that the editors,
you know,
wanted that,
I don't know if the story would have run otherwise.
Um because the kinds of accounts that we had,
(31:22):
like as we said,
the bar is kind of set,
I think pretty high for what people consider unacceptable behavior,
you know.
Um And also I,
I wanna say that she explicitly said that it was reading the public letter and the anonymous statements that inspired her because she had,
(31:42):
you know,
kind of sat on her experience for a long time and felt that there was really no point in going forward or trying to do anything,
but she was really inspired by other people.
So again,
it's just another example of how that organizing really created the kind of context to have people come forward,
(32:03):
you know.
OK,
so we wanted to try to move a little faster because we're,
we're just still trying to get through the timeline here.
And I will,
I'll say that this is the part where I think probably both of us have less information.
(32:28):
I kind of fell back at this point.
Um And I know that um the Annelise Harlander um then became more heavily involved.
I don't,
I don't know too much about that process,
but it seems,
I mean,
ultimately,
it culminated in Gopal being fired um in September 2019 and the buzzfeed article,
(32:51):
you know,
kind of discussing this does point out that as far as we know,
he's the only tenured professor at U C Santa Cruz um to be fired,
you know,
in this type of situation.
So,
uh it's certainly not something that they do lightly after that happened.
There was a little bit more organizing around basically to try to get at the culture on the left that really was still kind of supporting and um like,
(33:20):
you know,
kind of endorsing Gopal and this type of behavior.
So do you want to say anything about the campaign uh targeting New Left Review and Verso?
Yeah,
I think,
and I,
I think this spoke to also just like a lot of the culture that many of us experienced within um when organizing in the student movement that there were a lot of these marxists often but could have been many different tendencies of leftism but like who had aspirations within academia and within kind of like,
(33:55):
particularly like left publishing.
So like,
you know,
versa.
And um so Gopal was on the um board of the editorial board of the new left review and also had a book going through Verso.
I think that some of us wanted to really put some pressure on,
put them kind of in the limelight a little bit too and say like,
(34:17):
how about all of these like fucking these boys who are just like upholding him?
Like they should be accountable too.
So there was this movement to say,
like,
versa,
you need to drop his book and new left of you,
you need to drop him from the editorial board.
And I think part of that was like,
yes,
that was a movement directly targeted at Gopal.
(34:38):
But it was also to say like down with this boys club,
it's really nasty.
And so I think part of that movement was to say like,
let's actually broaden this a little bit too and like target this culture,
this really toxic culture.
And then eventually he was,
his book was um he was,
his book was not published through versa.
(34:58):
And I think he was taken off of something from the new left,
taken off like the mast head for the editorial board of the New Left review.
Yeah,
but I wouldn't say that it actually changed much of the culture and,
and definitely from our point of view just because it was a little bit of like a behind the scenes thing.
Oh,
let's get this person who knows this person to talk to.
(35:21):
So,
and so I think it's fair to say that it was done pretty reluctantly with just more of a sense of kind of having to like give in to the me too moment and not out of much enthusiasm.
And we,
we referenced this in our letter that we drafted to new left review.
They've been called out before because they still published Franco Moretti and Gabriel Piterburg who both have been accused of rape and sexual assault.
(35:49):
So do we want to move on to the next topic here?
Which I mean,
we've already touched on,
but we were just kind of trying to hold back a little bit was uh really just talking to our thoughts on Title Nine.
Um Our experiences with um the Title Nine process and just like why we think it failed and really what we think its potential is if any.
(36:14):
Yeah,
what,
what do you,
what do you think Kay,
um I'm trying to remember what I really wanted to say about Title nine.
You were really trying to hold yourself back to back.
I think one of the things I felt really frustrating was that it felt like they were looking were only going to accept a very specific thing.
(36:34):
And I remember somebody sending us in our group like a definition of what was acceptable.
And it was like,
you know,
it's the same,
same old story about like these cases that come forward.
And it's like the definition of rape is this very specific act of penetration and anything else is just doesn't count and we just don't care about.
(36:56):
And it was very similar where people were bringing forward these accounts.
And I think it's like the same thing,
you know,
we,
we actually talked about this,
like the interesting conversations that came about during me too.
From the like a yes,
yes.
It was like,
nobody cares about these things until there is this very like sort of stereotypical story of what rape looks like or what assault looks like.
(37:29):
And obviously those things are horrible and those things should be,
you know,
taken really seriously.
But there's so many other scenarios that one should be also taken seriously.
And two,
those horribly violent acts would never have happened if anyone listened to people bringing forward that somebody was harassing women or,
(37:52):
and non-binary people and was like being making people uncomfortable it's like those things we are talking about.
It's like those are just so you're overreacting,
you're making a big deal.
And so it felt like Title nine is sort of,
you know,
those narratives,
they come from these,
you know,
institutions that create like legal definitions of what constitutes,
(38:17):
you know,
legitimate gender violence,
everything else is just,
you know,
we're making too big of a deal about it.
And so it's like all of these accounts like you read them and they're very upsetting and these accounts that people are saying or like this almost happened.
(38:38):
He did something,
he cornered me,
he did this and then I got away.
People are like,
wow,
so like nothing happened.
Like let's move on.
Not like wow,
this person is obviously going is,
is not somebody who should be around women and queer people and non-binary people.
He just,
he just shouldn't be around.
(38:58):
This is not particularly in a position of authority completely.
So it's like,
I think that felt like just honestly fuck Title Nine.
It felt like they are just become this like HR in a way like they are just kind of,
I don't know if you want to speak about that part as well.
Well,
yeah,
I do because I,
I don't even think it's um just the culture of Title IX and I think it's like,
(39:23):
structurally,
you know,
I mean,
they,
they,
they are like human resources because they're run by the university and,
you know,
the,
the,
they basically are designed not to support survivors but to protect the university from lawsuits,
which is also how human resources work.
(39:44):
So if they decide that it's in their best interest to fire someone,
because they,
they might get sued by a defendant,
then they might do so.
So they,
they are approaching any,
they're called complaints,
which is also interesting.
Right.
When somebody comes forward with their account,
it's called a complaint.
(40:04):
Um Right.
It's really setting the tone.
Um they are approaching these from the perspective of someone who is concerned with like,
ok,
legally,
how like what,
how,
what,
how are we potentially like best gonna protect ourselves here and just anecdotally,
(40:24):
something that like,
I really started to observe when we started talking about this with people was how many people had stories of going to Title Nine and being re traumatized through their attempts to have justice.
Um either through being denied,
(40:44):
through going into a meeting and having lawyers for the university present,
you know,
in the room with you,
not even telling you that's who they are.
Um But finding out later,
you know,
like basically a really hostile environment,
um often not even knowing the results of your,
(41:06):
you know,
quote unquote complaints.
Um There's uh there are,
you know,
around that time because of me too,
there was more like investigation,
there were some audits of the U C system and of their handling and I did have a couple of articles I wanted to just briefly mention.
Um these were both published by The Daily Californian,
(41:29):
which is basically like focusing on U C Berkeley.
But like,
as we said,
there were a few professors that gained like national notoriety around this time because students came forward.
Um and they were basically audited by um I think the US Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights.
(41:50):
Um So let me see,
uh,
this,
this,
I think this is the earlier article from 2018,
um,
which basically said that there was a four year federal investigation and it found that the campus had violated title nine policies.
And that's even,
you know,
we're challenging the,
we're saying the existing policies aren't that great,
(42:11):
but they weren't even able to follow their own existing policies,
right?
And,
and a lot of the issues that came up,
um,
had to do with just,
um,
issues like,
um taking a really long time to,
you know,
resolve these cases to the point where sometimes people aren't even students anymore.
(42:31):
Um,
it could take up to three years to conclude an investigation and issue a response.
And students,
you know,
spoke to reporters about this,
they're using these sham investigations and dragging them out for months and sometimes years.
This is a,
a student by the name of,
um,
I just want Sophie Karasek,
uh U C Berkeley alumni and an initial complainant.
(42:53):
So there were 31 initial complainants who brought this forward.
So the um the O C R,
the Office of for Civil Rights basically agreed that they identified significant concerns and violations.
And then after that,
there was a state audit that looked at U C Berkeley,
U C L A and um U C Davis.
(43:13):
And it found that all three campuses had failed to comply with federal regulations and best practices.
Um So it found that it took U C campuses much longer to discipline faculty than staff.
It took an average of 220 days.
Um and also that these are the quotes from the administration kind of responding to this.
(43:38):
And they're basically saying a lot of times the administration instead of basically doing a formal investigation um following its own policies and procedures would use like an informal process.
And my understanding is this is kind of like,
well,
we're gonna move you to another class so you don't have to see this student or professor anymore or whatever,
(43:59):
you know,
just some something like that.
But I experienced that as a freshman and doing that.
You did.
Yeah.
And yeah,
and that,
I mean,
just like connecting it back to the like my own just interactions with people that was really common when I talked to people.
And I have to say that of the probably dozens of people who told me that they had had some type of interaction with title nine,
I I had not a single person,
(44:21):
tell me that they had had um any type of formal disciplinary measure be taken for any,
anything,
you know,
and the other thing is just the way that like going back to like all of that stuff in the faculty email thread about,
well,
you know,
the formal procedures and this kind of like almost like mystification of the process that,
(44:43):
oh,
it's gonna produce the truth when,
if you,
if you look at what actually happens,
it's really just the,
the person who brought forward the claim,
like sits in a room,
they tell what happened to them,
you know,
the person who's being accused tells their version and then usually some administrators just decide what they think is more likely and what the course of action is.
(45:06):
So,
I mean,
it's not that,
that doesn't have any meaning,
but it's not like some type of magical,
you know,
a process of objectivity where all of this data and evidence is being weighed that we don't have access to.
But like we know that somehow through these like arbiters,
you know,
(45:26):
the truth has been produced,
you know,
I mean,
what they're really what they're really weighing is what is going to be the least consequential for the university financially and it's like their HR and their PR yeah,
because the administrators make these decisions in consultation with their lawyers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it's also like,
(45:47):
oh,
we're making it a big public thing.
Now they have to consider that when they're making this decision about,
you know,
what they're gonna do.
Yeah.
And I think we're getting right to the heart of like this,
our emotional and personal responses to the experience of organizing this campaign and um feel like even just going back and remembering as we were kind of prepping for this and looking back over old emails was bringing back a lot of feelings.
(46:23):
I,
you know,
I,
I texted you a couple of times or whatever just to be like,
oh I didn't realize I was going to be getting so angry and like,
fuck this person and da da,
da da because it still kind of hurts sometimes.
Um And that's something that I noticed just talking to a lot of people who were involved,
(46:44):
you know,
we talked before about this feeling of betrayal from certain faculty and I saw a lot of people feel that way,
just kind of feel like it's really hard to feel like um some people in a position of power are going to be your um allies or have your back or maybe they're people that you felt emotionally vulnerable with before or felt you could trust and then to suddenly feel that they're like very cold or they're treating you with suspicion.
(47:17):
It,
it,
it definitely hurts.
Um And I think that something we had to learn was that we really needed to take care of each other.
I mean,
obviously self care and like,
collective care are kind of like buzzwords right now.
But I mean,
I do feel like there was a lot of emotional labor um,
(47:38):
involved in this type of organizing because it seemed like almost any time you talk to somebody,
they were kind of like going through it or having an emotional reaction to something or it was bringing up,
you know,
personal experiences that they'd had,
you know,
or title nine experiences or just like sexual assault to add on to that,
(47:59):
like,
well,
one and I know we talked about this a lot but just like the ways when we talked about like reaching out to all these people like that was,
you know,
we did that in a way of like,
with support and like doing that,
obviously,
we're not like coldhearted people,
but it's like,
it ended up also being like this kind of like collective.
(48:22):
Like,
I don't know if you say like counseling,
but like,
obviously,
we were really like,
you know,
asking people to like rehash things that were really,
you know,
traumatic and we were holding space for each other.
I don't know.
I'm not saying,
I think that a lot of times people's like,
radicalization comes from like fucked up experiences or being able to like,
(48:47):
collectively understand and make sense of these um without like blaming yourself or just feeling like nihilistic about them.
And so I think like,
there's a lot of,
there was a lot of upsetting feelings coming up.
And at the same time,
we were also,
like,
able to bring those,
(49:07):
those things forward by feeling really supported by each other and feeling not alone and making sure people didn't feel alone because otherwise how can you talk about all these things and,
and share what needs to be shared?
Right.
Yeah.
And I mean,
I mean,
if it's not obvious just to say,
(49:28):
like when we did talk to people about coming forward,
there was,
I mean,
I guess it wasn't unexpected,
but I still was kind of struck by just how much fear there was,
you know,
and definitely,
I,
I mean,
definitely,
you know,
more people didn't come forward than did ultimately and,
(49:48):
and then there was the decision of whether to put your name on something or not and,
you know,
whether to,
to file a Title Nine or whether to talk to a journalist and just for anyone that's listening to really understand that there's a lot of emotion and fear and like,
just,
(50:10):
I don't know,
a lot went into making those decisions for each individual,
you know,
and so,
I mean,
obviously from our perspective,
we're like,
hoping that people will come forward,
but also trying to create a situation where no one is pressured um because no one should have to be in that position.
And so this idea that people just love the limelight and they're trying to get attention,
(50:34):
you know.
Um,
just so far from what I experienced.
Totally.
Totally.
Yeah,
it was,
it was a big ask,
a big ask to come forward or also even just rehash those things with that alone with,
like in a title nine hearing with lawyers and like,
(50:54):
admin.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
should we talk about our takeaways?
Yeah,
I think,
I think it's time.
Um,
I mean,
what are your big ones?
I think that we,
(51:15):
you know,
we,
I think in talking about and reflecting on this,
obviously like the real,
I think the biggest one was like that and I think some of us knew that this was gonna be the case but that these institutions that are supposed to be dealing with gender violence failed us.
(51:36):
You know,
they don't the institute,
the university title nine,
like those things that when people do more direct action,
they say,
why don't you go through these channels?
They don't work and they're part of the problem.
It's not that they don't work like they are working as they're supposed to and that they're not actually for,
(51:57):
they're not trying to topple patriarchy,
they're not trying to end gender,
that's just not their goal.
They don't have that incentive.
But one of the really amazing things about this story is that collective feminist organizing that included direct action was successful,
(52:18):
you know,
I mean,
I think that obviously there's still more to be done and that's another takeaway about this but we do rarely see any wins,
you know.
And we,
and it's pretty inspiring that so many people came together and organized in so many different ways and got this person fired,
(52:42):
you know,
and,
and maybe got some,
you know,
peace of mind for many of us in some way,
you know.
But just seeing that difference of what organizing worked and what didn't I think is a major takeaway in this.
Yeah.
What would you wanna tell students who might be listening?
(53:07):
Uh Do you have any advice or just thoughts for anyone who might want to try to do some kind of organizing on their campus?
Obviously,
I think the,
the biggest thing for me is making those relationships with each other coming together.
If you're,
if there's exploitation,
(53:29):
if there's things happening,
oppressive things happening to share that with each other and find each other and build together.
Another thing from this that I,
we were talking about is the ways that we used sort of feminist forms of knowledge sharing.
(53:53):
And I think like really talking with each other and,
and doing what they say is called gossiping,
you know,
and sharing those personal experiences because when you find that you're having all similar experiences,
that's gonna be your point of intervention that you,
that you,
(54:13):
you know,
can all take action on together and that could be like the rupture and become a really big movement that makes some big change.
What what do,
what do you think,
what would you say becoming a feminist,
like,
like so many,
(54:33):
like,
radicalizing processes does involve heartbreak and it involves kind of having to let go of certain people and relationships that you thought,
you know,
were a certain way and they turn out not to be.
But it also does involve developing like more authentic and um egalitarian,
(54:55):
you know,
and meaningful bonds once you can kind of like,
you know,
once you can like that,
that are built on a better foundation,
ultimately,
you know,
and so like,
once you can let go of that stuff,
honestly,
it's,
it's good,
it's good because you can do a lot out here.
Yeah,
I guess I really wanted to just shout out or say something about like,
(55:17):
just that I really appreciate the people who did come forward.
Um And,
and who,
who,
you know,
took those kinds of risks and dealt with all the feelings and the fallout.
Um because I do feel like that's,
that's really kind of what made it all happen.
And um I,
I hope that,
(55:38):
like,
I was able to support that,
but,
you know,
I,
I,
I just want to recognize it wasn't quite the same,
like emotional stakes for me.
Um Well,
thank you so much for talking with me and um I feel excited to see if more cool feminist organizing happens.
(56:00):
Me too.
Thanks for having me on and,
and um rehashing all of this.
I know and I feel like I need to go like run around the block a bunch of times,
like weird energy,
punch a punching bag a few times.
(56:20):
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Bye.
Hello and welcome to today's episode of Office Hours.
Today's episode is gonna look a little different from our usual format.
I will be talking with a good friend of mine,
Kay about our participation in an organizing campaign against faculty,
sexual harassment and assault that ultimately led to the firing of a tenured professor.
(00:38):
I want to give a content warning here at the top for discussion of sexual harassment and assault.
We don't include any graphic or detailed descriptions,
but they are discussed in general terms throughout the episode between 2017 and 2019 students and allies at U C Santa Cruz organized to bring attention to what they called a pattern of sexual harassment perpetrated by a history of consciousness,
(01:01):
Professor Gopal Balakrishnan Kay and I participated in some of this organizing,
they as a student and then an alum and I as an alumni along with many undergrad and grad students,
other alumni and members of the Bay Area radical left.
Although we don't cover it in our discussion.
Our participation was motivated in part by the experiences we both had with Bala Krishnan as students of his and as acquaintances who often socialized with him through shared university and radical left networks.
(01:34):
In this discussion,
we reconstruct the timeline of events that ultimately led to Balakrishnan firing in 2019.
We also talk about our experiences with the Title Nine Office at U C Santa Cruz.
Why we believe Title Nine was so unhelpful our experiences with feminist and leftist faculty,
the importance of gossip as feminist knowledge sharing and the emotional labor that goes into organizing against sexual harassment and sexual assault.
(02:02):
Ultimately,
our conclusion is that feminist organizing and direct action are needed to challenge sexual harassment and sexual assault within academia before going into our discussion.
However,
I do want to provide a brief chronology of events here since it gets a little complicated.
And Kay and I get sidetracked in our discussion a number of times.
(02:24):
So in early 2017,
buoyed by the Me Too movement undergrads began organizing against Bala Krishnan stories of negative experiences with him had been circulating for years.
And now students began a campaign in which they wrote messages about his behavior on bathroom walls called for a boycott of his class on Women's Day and wrote letters to Humanity's Faculty about his behavior which they slipped under faculty doors throughout the spring of 2017,
(02:55):
undergrad and grad students filed a wave of title nine complaints against Balakrishnan.
Then in November 2017 weeks after the Harvey Weinstein allegations became public,
an anonymous group published a public letter that included seven anonymous descriptions of first person experiences with Balakrishnan ranging from uncomfortable encounters to harassment to one instance of attempted assault.
(03:22):
The letter which asked that Balakrishnan not be welcome in organizing spaces was signed by hundreds of people in May 2018,
Buzzfeed published an investigative piece on the accusations against Balakrishnan.
And the anonymous letter in this piece,
former undergraduate student,
Annelise Harlander came forward as a victim of sexual assault by Balakrishnan.
(03:45):
Back in 2013,
Highlander also then filed a title nine claim against Balakrishnan and the university subsequently reopened its investigation into previous claims.
In September 2019,
Balakrishnan was fired from his position at U C Santa Cruz after a vote by the Board of Regents,
(04:07):
the only case of a tenured professor being fired from U CSC in the last 20 years.
If you're interested in a more detailed timeline and description of these events,
we'll provide links in the show notes to two pretty substantive articles published by buzzfeed.
Let's turn now to my discussion with Kay just to set the stage for the conversation.
(04:31):
I introduce Kay briefly and then we jump right to our involvement in 2017.
We became involved after the undergrad campaign began when a humanities faculty email condemning student organizing against Balakrishnan was leaked to the student body.
You'll hear Kay briefly mention the graffiti and letters to faculty and then we start talking about the faculty email.
(05:08):
So Uh Let me introduce our guest today.
Their name is Kay.
They're an old friend of mine,
we met during the student movement at U C Santa Cruz around 2009.
Uh We have been involved in feminist organizing together anti repression work and they are currently involved in similar stuff,
feminist,
(05:29):
anti repression and anti police organizing.
So welcome,
Kay,
welcome.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
Um So we wanted to start off by kind of trying to reconstruct the student organizing campaign.
Yeah.
After the graffiti and then letters were slipped under,
(05:51):
then it became this sort of thing that was the faculty had to respond to,
right?
And what really like was this big,
it kind of made it public was that faculty had been having an internal email thread in response to this and they didn't even realize that graduate students were on this thread because guess what faculty,
(06:14):
forget the graduate student workers exist and um,
a graduate student leaked it.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I do.
And,
and the content of this email thread was really shocking to a lot of people because it revealed that a lot of faculty and not to name names here.
(06:36):
But we're talking about eminent feminist critics of,
you know,
institutional power.
Um We kind of really using the rhetoric of witch hunts and,
you know,
well,
why didn't they do this the official way?
And I,
I think it's probably worth noting at this point that this is happening in the midst of me too.
(06:59):
And it's probably part of why,
you know,
undergrads felt empowered at that moment to do what they were doing.
So I just feel like there's an extra resonance to people to hear this stuff coming from the mouths of faculty.
And if you don't mind,
I will just read a couple quotes from the email thread just not attached to any names.
But um just to give you a sense of what,
(07:21):
you know,
how,
how people were talking in a forum where they thought they were not being viewed,
you know,
not,
not being watch.
Um,
so let's see.
Uh,
such a campaign threatens us all faculty staff and students alike insofar as it seeks to condemn by rumor,
insinuation and repetition.
There are procedures in place on our campus and in our courts to address the grievances we have against one another and these sorts of anonymous accusations impede the proper functioning of those channels.
(07:53):
Another one in times where anonymity has replaced principle,
we need to take a stand against such campaigns.
Another one,
if the accusers believe they have a legitimate case,
they should file formal charges and the accused should have an opportunity to defend himself.
If we give up the principle of innocent until proven guilty,
(08:13):
we are in danger of devolving into witch hunts.
And then another one which just bothers me as a historian because it says as someone who spent his professional career studying Europe,
I believe the evil of anonymous denunciation is particularly acute.
So it's,
I mean,
it's just like,
it's kind of interesting to like here,
(08:34):
this is literally the same national and international conversation that's happening at this exact moment around me too.
Right.
And women coming forward or annoy writing anonymous statements that,
you know,
they're up with their identities not being,
you know,
publicly revealed about prominent men.
And the same kind of logic is being replicated here in this email thread,
(08:58):
right?
Yeah.
And I think I just,
I don't know for those of you who don't know as like much about Santa Cruz,
I think what's particularly upsetting and even like for was surprising is that as Laura said,
like Santa Cruz,
the the the departments from which these comments were coming from are literally like Marxist and feminist scholars who like,
(09:24):
like I are teaching classes that are literally about like feminist organizing about like anti capitalism,
anti state,
like teaching classes about gender violence,
teaching about the Me too movement,
you know.
So it's like,
it's,
I think it's interesting because uh maybe I think there was maybe a hope or a sort of trust that some of these professors would be allies in this.
(09:55):
Um Not all I think particularly like for those of us organizing already had a bit of a disillusionment about like these male,
like Marxist professors who a lot of them were doing some kind of messed up like gendered behaviors.
But I do think there was a little bit of an expectation of some difference and that was really disappointing and just like,
(10:19):
pretty disgusting to be like one of the things Laura,
when you were talking that I thought about is just,
there was no even all of the the assumption was that these were mal intentioned.
It was like,
maybe people are doing this because Title Nine didn't listen to them or because this isn't,
(10:40):
you know,
just so much,
you know,
narrative that is assuming that if you're shouting out using this strategy,
then this must mean you didn't,
you haven't tried anything else,
you know,
and you're,
and,
and actually,
we do know now um that many Title nine claims had individually been submitted against,
(11:01):
against Gopal um at by that time.
So,
you know,
students already had reason to feel that institutions had failed them and just to add Kay to what you said,
I mean,
and we'll talk about this more when we kind of talk about our like our emotional responses and,
and what it was like being involved.
Um There was a,
(11:22):
a feeling of,
of betrayal and kind of hurt,
you know,
on the part of just some of the professors reactions,
but also kind of like being incredulous because as you said,
like these are people whose job have made a career on like critiquing institutions and then to see them 11 email after another just say there are procedures in place,
(11:46):
you know,
they,
they should file formal,
formal charges.
Um There's one that I didn't even read,
which said if a complaint of harassment or assault were properly filed,
it should be processed according to our procedures.
And I'm certain that would be done like,
oh,
I'm certain the pro the procedures would work,
you know.
So it says to me and we'll talk about this more like there's a lot to say about the position of tenured faculty,
(12:12):
especially at elite,
you know,
relatively elite institutions like the U C and,
you know,
on the one hand being workers,
but on the other hand,
having so much power and the hierarchical nature of academia where they're really identifying,
you know,
very strongly with the institution and believing it is something that works and has worked for them.
(12:32):
So it's gonna work for others,
you know.
Yeah.
And the idea that if,
if questioning an institution is a threat to their comfort,
then all of a sudden their narrative about depending and trusting on those other people,
trusting and using those institutional um avenues changes.
(12:53):
Totally.
Yeah,
for me.
So at this point,
I I was like looking back over old emails and I had actually forgotten how much work people started doing at this time because some members of the graduate student union actually worked to get a statement,
you know,
from uh passed by the our chapter,
you know,
the U C Santa Cruz chapter in support of the student organizers.
(13:16):
And um basically,
you know,
condemning or,
you know,
calling out the the faculty email thread,
I believe the graduate student assembly also,
you know,
passed a resolution.
So already,
like there really were,
I mean,
because one of the things I think basically,
like we're trying to emphasize with this episode is just how many people worked really hard um to get goal fired and how much work it took.
(13:43):
But also like how many people cared and how many people made the effort and but also just how much,
how many people it takes to get just one outcome like this.
And I also think that for a lot of us who had been around this,
you know,
I think there was this level of just like,
what's the point?
Nobody is going to take this seriously.
(14:05):
And so it felt like this forever open secret.
And I think for a lot of us who had graduated and had experienced tons of misogyny and sexism and in the student movement and just with those professors,
um particularly goal,
what felt really,
I,
(14:25):
I think really wanted to support the undergrad who came forward and also like,
felt inspired and felt like,
and I think what you said in this moment of me too,
it felt like this might actually be a moment where we could jump off of the fact that it's becoming so public and really do something.
(14:46):
And I also think maybe the anxiety that the way that the public response was so big also was probably about me too,
that it wasn't a moment that people could take something like this lightly.
And I think we said,
well,
let's really go with that and let's also like honor that these undergrads did this really,
like kind of more militant thing and,
(15:08):
and build on that.
And so I think,
um,
I don't know what happened next is I,
I was gonna talk about title the Title nine claims,
but did you Yeah,
why don't you go ahead?
Because,
because I,
because yeah,
there was another wave of submitting title nine claims right around this time.
Yeah,
I think that two things happened where I think a lot of us were like,
(15:29):
well title nine is probably not gonna fucking work.
Oh Am I allowed to curse on this?
I don't know.
Yeah.
OK.
Um But let's,
you know,
they're saying that we need to use these avenues.
So one of the things that we can do to support is we can make title nine claims because so many of us had,
(15:50):
you know,
different experiences with Gopal and or new people who did.
So a bunch of us started not only reaching out ourselves but also,
you know,
as Laura said,
so many people got involved in this.
People started like reaching out to tons of different people who'd been in contact with Gopal as you know,
students and asking them to make,
(16:12):
to,
to file title nine and um claims and we spoke to somebody,
this was kind of wild but they,
they said,
ok,
you can make anonymous claims.
So we were because,
and,
and that can,
um,
it can be investigated or something and it can be investigated.
So we were kind of trying to build an investigation and so so many people were calling in,
(16:35):
um,
which eventually I think we're gonna get into more of this later,
like basically nothing panned out.
Um which was obviously frustrating,
but kind of was as expected.
Yeah,
but wait,
can I just make a comment?
Just that I was thinking as you're,
as you're saying this,
I mean,
I think part of what also stands out to me is that we're already building on like an existing culture of sharing knowledge because like another thing that I think is an important lesson is like this whole idea of gossip,
(17:07):
you know,
which comes up a lot when people talk about me too,
you know,
and,
and definitely was something that we were accused of.
Um It's basically like years and years of people knowing and interacting with Gopal being ha and having stories like,
oh,
don't you remember when this person told us that their friend,
you know,
had this experience with Gopal?
(17:28):
Hey,
let's track,
let's call this person.
Let's see if we can track that person down,
see if they're willing to come forward.
Like there was so much just drawing on all of this like quote unquote gossip,
like informal knowledge,
which is just part of like feminist sharing that we do to keep each other safe,
you know.
And so that was a big part of how we were able to bring forward title nine claims.
(17:52):
And also when we get to it,
like the letters that were the letter public letter that was later written was just that we had already like taken the time to consider this type of sharing important,
you know.
Yeah.
And I think that that,
yeah,
that's a really good point and an important point.
And I do think that that's something then it just felt like we share with each other to keep each other safe.
(18:15):
But it,
it wasn't until this point.
And for all those reasons,
we've discussed that it felt like anyone else was really listening so that something else could happen besides us just saying,
like kind of steer clear of that guy,
you know,
um which felt like a very specific moment.
And um,
(18:36):
yeah,
so a lot of those statements were similar things that people made title nine claims about and what,
what it kind of came out with title nine kept saying these aren't,
these aren't bad enough,
they don't meet the criteria.
There was,
there were various things,
it was either this happened off campus,
(18:56):
so it's not relevant or this person,
this person wasn't a student or this person,
you know,
this doesn't meet the threshold or something or giving like conflicting things like,
oh yes,
you can make an anonymous claim and then being like,
we're sorry,
but all the claims that have made are been made are anonymous so they can't be investigated.
(19:17):
And then people having to like re reach out to people and be like,
are you willing to go on the record with your name?
Which obviously is a scary thing to do for,
you know,
some people were willing and some people weren't.
So at first,
I think a lot of people actually felt like their interactions with the title nine officer.
(19:38):
They actually felt kind of like she was an ally and we'll get to this more when we talk about like our take on how Title nine works.
But she,
it then turned out that she really was giving conflicting information to different people and then she was leaking some stuff to,
you know,
she was telling faculty various,
you know,
things.
Well,
(19:58):
we can't move forward because no one's willing to go on the record and,
you know,
so that was part of the thing.
Yeah,
I'm,
I'm struggling to not just jump right into the title nine stuff.
So I guess we can,
we'll come back to it,
but it definitely felt like um we were realizing that this avenue was not going to work because it wasn't fitting these specific things.
(20:23):
So I think that we had collected all of this information and we had been talking to people and,
you know,
building this network really of,
you know,
women and non-binary people to us.
We felt,
well,
let's do something with this.
If Title Nine is not going to take us seriously,
(20:44):
then let's do our own thing,
which,
which amounted to us actually kind of making,
like,
writing out.
I think how many people,
I don't know how many people made testimonies,
but I think eight or nine anonymous testimonies.
Yeah,
I'll,
I'll look while you keep talking,
I'll look about experiences with goal um as students and,
(21:06):
or grad students or,
you know,
um and we made that public and we got,
we started um collecting signatures and we also made it open and said anyone we'd like,
you know,
if anyone else has other experiences,
(21:27):
please contact us.
And so one,
this was literally a few weeks after um the Harvey Weinstein stuff came,
came out.
So,
you know,
it felt like it was,
you know,
was really in the height of me too.
These things were being taken seriously on a wider scale.
(21:48):
And so it started being passed around and I think one was to just get the public attention,
forcing the university to act and two in the hopes that it would also reach other people and um other women and non-binary people and queer people who had had experiences with Gopal to connect with us and to keep building this movement against him.
(22:14):
So it kind of served two purposes in that way.
Yeah,
I,
I see that there's seven tax crimes there.
Yeah.
And then that letter kind of made a splash.
It was controversial.
Um,
it was controversial.
You know,
there was a,
it seemed like some people really thought this was going too far and particularly because the statements were anonymous.
(22:39):
Um,
and the state,
the letter was asking basically the letter,
if you look at it was not asking for goal to be fired or anything,
it was specifically like speaking to the radical community,
right?
And sort of like the left or whatever that goal is part of and just saying whatever,
(23:02):
you know,
the university's values might be whatever their title nine rules are.
We know what our values are.
And the these statements show a pattern of someone who um has committed harm,
you know,
repeatedly.
And so I think we were calling on a kind of a tried and true feminist tactic of this person shouldn't be welcome in our spaces,
(23:27):
you know,
so that I guess that was controversial to people.
I mean,
in a lot of ways,
I feel like,
yeah,
we,
we weren't even demanding that he be fired.
We were just asking for accountability,
like within our community,
considering that goal was somebody who we actually socialized with and who would had like kind of like political and social connections,
(23:51):
you know,
in the kind of like radical left,
you know,
he's on that.
He was on the editorial board of the new Left Review and published by Verso.
We'll get to that later too.
But I do want to get to that.
And I think like one thing that it is important we talk about is like we,
yeah,
why it was taking so long to like make this call out and why it felt why it was so controversial,
(24:16):
you know,
and not just amongst professors and amongst people who work for U C Santa Cruz,
but also amongst like leftists who maybe have a stake in academia or sort of like the,
the publishing world and,
and these sort of other leftist institutions.
But this sort of like power that Gopal has as a professor and as a Marxist in this sort of kind of like,
(24:43):
you know,
the,
the sort of like social power that he had in these radical communities that and I think this happens a lot with,
for,
for um that there's a sort of like extra thing that if you wanna be calling out like sexism or like harassment.
(25:05):
It's like people who you might align with,
who are like anti capitalists or won't side with you because you're now calling out somebody who's in your movement who's,
oh,
he's,
your movement already feels like fragile enough and under attack.
So it's like,
yeah,
you're dividing the movement and like,
he was supportive of the student movement when we were younger.
(25:28):
And,
you know,
years before.
And so it felt very difficult to make that those claims.
And so again,
this was a specific moment where and I guess it,
it came up because I was thinking about you talking about the anonymity and thinking about people being so critical of it being anonymous and people not understanding why and people not really understanding like it,
(25:51):
it felt important for it to be a collective thing that we are bringing forward and that people had a hard time coming forward individually and publicly,
you know.
Yeah,
there was a lot at stake.
Yeah,
a lot at stake.
Scary to people.
Yeah.
Um OK,
so it seems like it was after that,
(26:14):
that goal was actually put on leave in the fall of 2017,
but he was still getting paid,
obviously getting paid a lot.
Um Then there was more,
you know,
there were more title nine claims because what started to happen after this letter was that a lot of people started writing in to,
(26:34):
you know,
I think,
I think the the people who go to the letter had like provided an email address,
like if you have had any,
you know,
encounters with Gopal that you wanna share and a lot of people started writing in and sharing stuff.
And um so,
you know,
people started creating kind of like a spreadsheet and reaching out to people and collecting statements and then,
(26:58):
um I think it was sometime around this time,
you know,
I,
I don't know that the timeline starts to get a little confusing but there,
there was a buzzfeed um journalist who reached out to someone who was involved and was interested in writing a piece about it clearly,
obviously from a me too angle.
(27:21):
Me too in higher ed,
you know,
and that was kind of like one of the stories that was going on at the time of there were a few professors,
I remember there was someone at U C Berkeley,
maybe like an astronomy prove there was someone at U C L A,
like there were a few professors that were really being investigated and there was,
there was kind of like media attention on at this time that was kind of like trying to bring the me too story into higher ed.
(27:46):
So this buzzfeed journalist was interested in a piece.
Um And so a few of us worked with this journalist to try to,
you know,
find um more accounts,
you know,
um I do wanna say a couple of things like one of the,
one of the um professors who I won't name,
(28:08):
but one of the professors who was not supportive of femi prominent feminist faculty uh had said something about how well,
you know,
she didn't support the student activism.
What she would like to see is a really good investigative journalistic account.
And so when this account was published,
(28:30):
she supported it.
But I just want to say that the account would never have been written and the journalist would never have reached out and there would have been no basis for it if that organizing hadn't happened.
So that was also hurtful because um it felt like these faculty members wanted things in a way to be nice and clean in a way that didn't involve um them having to do anything unpleasant or um have to acknowledge the reality of what organizing is like,
(29:10):
you know,
um they just wanted,
oh OK,
these professionals will come in these quote unquote experts who they were willing to consider to be more objective um because their sources are vetted,
et cetera,
et cetera without like recognizing that,
you know,
we had to do a lot of work in order to like create that context,
(29:30):
you know,
definitely.
And I,
I mean,
it's just like such a classic,
like aist historical,
like liberalizing of,
of any social change that happens,
you know,
that's like,
oh,
you know,
just ignore any of the militancy that that pushed for like a larger scale attention or like that pushed for,
(29:53):
you know,
the the meager changes that we do get from institutions are force to take these actions.
And it's like,
yeah,
but if nobody was doing these like,
you know,
militant things or pushing for this direct action and putting that pressure,
none of that would happen.
So it's just,
it's so classic,
right?
Um I,
I also want to say like with the buzzfeed article,
(30:15):
you know,
what ended up happening and I don't wanna dwell on her because we haven't spoken with her or gotten any like,
you know,
consent from her to really talk about her case.
But what ended up happening was that someone did come forward,
her name is public.
So Annelise Harlander,
um I think I'm saying that right?
(30:37):
And you can,
you know,
read more about her case,
but basically she came forward with an account that I would say kind of like it's,
you know,
it's,
it's a little bit hard to kind of know to,
to think about it,
but it like it basically,
it met that kind of like criteria for,
I think what a journalist and what the general public wanted to see in terms of a,
(31:02):
like a me too case that was actionable,
you know,
I felt like the journalist was really kind of waiting for that kind of story to come forward.
Probably like,
I'm guessing that the editors,
you know,
wanted that,
I don't know if the story would have run otherwise.
Um because the kinds of accounts that we had,
(31:22):
like as we said,
the bar is kind of set,
I think pretty high for what people consider unacceptable behavior,
you know.
Um And also I,
I wanna say that she explicitly said that it was reading the public letter and the anonymous statements that inspired her because she had,
(31:42):
you know,
kind of sat on her experience for a long time and felt that there was really no point in going forward or trying to do anything,
but she was really inspired by other people.
So again,
it's just another example of how that organizing really created the kind of context to have people come forward,
(32:03):
you know.
OK,
so we wanted to try to move a little faster because we're,
we're just still trying to get through the timeline here.
And I will,
I'll say that this is the part where I think probably both of us have less information.
(32:28):
I kind of fell back at this point.
Um And I know that um the Annelise Harlander um then became more heavily involved.
I don't,
I don't know too much about that process,
but it seems,
I mean,
ultimately,
it culminated in Gopal being fired um in September 2019 and the buzzfeed article,
(32:51):
you know,
kind of discussing this does point out that as far as we know,
he's the only tenured professor at U C Santa Cruz um to be fired,
you know,
in this type of situation.
So,
uh it's certainly not something that they do lightly after that happened.
There was a little bit more organizing around basically to try to get at the culture on the left that really was still kind of supporting and um like,
(33:20):
you know,
kind of endorsing Gopal and this type of behavior.
So do you want to say anything about the campaign uh targeting New Left Review and Verso?
Yeah,
I think,
and I,
I think this spoke to also just like a lot of the culture that many of us experienced within um when organizing in the student movement that there were a lot of these marxists often but could have been many different tendencies of leftism but like who had aspirations within academia and within kind of like,
(33:55):
particularly like left publishing.
So like,
you know,
versa.
And um so Gopal was on the um board of the editorial board of the new left review and also had a book going through Verso.
I think that some of us wanted to really put some pressure on,
put them kind of in the limelight a little bit too and say like,
(34:17):
how about all of these like fucking these boys who are just like upholding him?
Like they should be accountable too.
So there was this movement to say,
like,
versa,
you need to drop his book and new left of you,
you need to drop him from the editorial board.
And I think part of that was like,
yes,
that was a movement directly targeted at Gopal.
(34:38):
But it was also to say like down with this boys club,
it's really nasty.
And so I think part of that movement was to say like,
let's actually broaden this a little bit too and like target this culture,
this really toxic culture.
And then eventually he was,
his book was um he was,
his book was not published through versa.
(34:58):
And I think he was taken off of something from the new left,
taken off like the mast head for the editorial board of the New Left review.
Yeah,
but I wouldn't say that it actually changed much of the culture and,
and definitely from our point of view just because it was a little bit of like a behind the scenes thing.
Oh,
let's get this person who knows this person to talk to.
(35:21):
So,
and so I think it's fair to say that it was done pretty reluctantly with just more of a sense of kind of having to like give in to the me too moment and not out of much enthusiasm.
And we,
we referenced this in our letter that we drafted to new left review.
They've been called out before because they still published Franco Moretti and Gabriel Piterburg who both have been accused of rape and sexual assault.
(35:49):
So do we want to move on to the next topic here?
Which I mean,
we've already touched on,
but we were just kind of trying to hold back a little bit was uh really just talking to our thoughts on Title Nine.
Um Our experiences with um the Title Nine process and just like why we think it failed and really what we think its potential is if any.
(36:14):
Yeah,
what,
what do you,
what do you think Kay,
um I'm trying to remember what I really wanted to say about Title nine.
You were really trying to hold yourself back to back.
I think one of the things I felt really frustrating was that it felt like they were looking were only going to accept a very specific thing.
(36:34):
And I remember somebody sending us in our group like a definition of what was acceptable.
And it was like,
you know,
it's the same,
same old story about like these cases that come forward.
And it's like the definition of rape is this very specific act of penetration and anything else is just doesn't count and we just don't care about.
(36:56):
And it was very similar where people were bringing forward these accounts.
And I think it's like the same thing,
you know,
we,
we actually talked about this,
like the interesting conversations that came about during me too.
From the like a yes,
yes.
It was like,
nobody cares about these things until there is this very like sort of stereotypical story of what rape looks like or what assault looks like.
(37:29):
And obviously those things are horrible and those things should be,
you know,
taken really seriously.
But there's so many other scenarios that one should be also taken seriously.
And two,
those horribly violent acts would never have happened if anyone listened to people bringing forward that somebody was harassing women or,
(37:52):
and non-binary people and was like being making people uncomfortable it's like those things we are talking about.
It's like those are just so you're overreacting,
you're making a big deal.
And so it felt like Title nine is sort of,
you know,
those narratives,
they come from these,
you know,
institutions that create like legal definitions of what constitutes,
(38:17):
you know,
legitimate gender violence,
everything else is just,
you know,
we're making too big of a deal about it.
And so it's like all of these accounts like you read them and they're very upsetting and these accounts that people are saying or like this almost happened.
(38:38):
He did something,
he cornered me,
he did this and then I got away.
People are like,
wow,
so like nothing happened.
Like let's move on.
Not like wow,
this person is obviously going is,
is not somebody who should be around women and queer people and non-binary people.
He just,
he just shouldn't be around.
(38:58):
This is not particularly in a position of authority completely.
So it's like,
I think that felt like just honestly fuck Title Nine.
It felt like they are just become this like HR in a way like they are just kind of,
I don't know if you want to speak about that part as well.
Well,
yeah,
I do because I,
I don't even think it's um just the culture of Title IX and I think it's like,
(39:23):
structurally,
you know,
I mean,
they,
they,
they are like human resources because they're run by the university and,
you know,
the,
the,
they basically are designed not to support survivors but to protect the university from lawsuits,
which is also how human resources work.
(39:44):
So if they decide that it's in their best interest to fire someone,
because they,
they might get sued by a defendant,
then they might do so.
So they,
they are approaching any,
they're called complaints,
which is also interesting.
Right.
When somebody comes forward with their account,
it's called a complaint.
(40:04):
Um Right.
It's really setting the tone.
Um they are approaching these from the perspective of someone who is concerned with like,
ok,
legally,
how like what,
how,
what,
how are we potentially like best gonna protect ourselves here and just anecdotally,
(40:24):
something that like,
I really started to observe when we started talking about this with people was how many people had stories of going to Title Nine and being re traumatized through their attempts to have justice.
Um either through being denied,
(40:44):
through going into a meeting and having lawyers for the university present,
you know,
in the room with you,
not even telling you that's who they are.
Um But finding out later,
you know,
like basically a really hostile environment,
um often not even knowing the results of your,
(41:06):
you know,
quote unquote complaints.
Um There's uh there are,
you know,
around that time because of me too,
there was more like investigation,
there were some audits of the U C system and of their handling and I did have a couple of articles I wanted to just briefly mention.
Um these were both published by The Daily Californian,
(41:29):
which is basically like focusing on U C Berkeley.
But like,
as we said,
there were a few professors that gained like national notoriety around this time because students came forward.
Um and they were basically audited by um I think the US Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights.
(41:50):
Um So let me see,
uh,
this,
this,
I think this is the earlier article from 2018,
um,
which basically said that there was a four year federal investigation and it found that the campus had violated title nine policies.
And that's even,
you know,
we're challenging the,
we're saying the existing policies aren't that great,
(42:11):
but they weren't even able to follow their own existing policies,
right?
And,
and a lot of the issues that came up,
um,
had to do with just,
um,
issues like,
um taking a really long time to,
you know,
resolve these cases to the point where sometimes people aren't even students anymore.
(42:31):
Um,
it could take up to three years to conclude an investigation and issue a response.
And students,
you know,
spoke to reporters about this,
they're using these sham investigations and dragging them out for months and sometimes years.
This is a,
a student by the name of,
um,
I just want Sophie Karasek,
uh U C Berkeley alumni and an initial complainant.
(42:53):
So there were 31 initial complainants who brought this forward.
So the um the O C R,
the Office of for Civil Rights basically agreed that they identified significant concerns and violations.
And then after that,
there was a state audit that looked at U C Berkeley,
U C L A and um U C Davis.
(43:13):
And it found that all three campuses had failed to comply with federal regulations and best practices.
Um So it found that it took U C campuses much longer to discipline faculty than staff.
It took an average of 220 days.
Um and also that these are the quotes from the administration kind of responding to this.
(43:38):
And they're basically saying a lot of times the administration instead of basically doing a formal investigation um following its own policies and procedures would use like an informal process.
And my understanding is this is kind of like,
well,
we're gonna move you to another class so you don't have to see this student or professor anymore or whatever,
(43:59):
you know,
just some something like that.
But I experienced that as a freshman and doing that.
You did.
Yeah.
And yeah,
and that,
I mean,
just like connecting it back to the like my own just interactions with people that was really common when I talked to people.
And I have to say that of the probably dozens of people who told me that they had had some type of interaction with title nine,
I I had not a single person,
(44:21):
tell me that they had had um any type of formal disciplinary measure be taken for any,
anything,
you know,
and the other thing is just the way that like going back to like all of that stuff in the faculty email thread about,
well,
you know,
the formal procedures and this kind of like almost like mystification of the process that,
(44:43):
oh,
it's gonna produce the truth when,
if you,
if you look at what actually happens,
it's really just the,
the person who brought forward the claim,
like sits in a room,
they tell what happened to them,
you know,
the person who's being accused tells their version and then usually some administrators just decide what they think is more likely and what the course of action is.
(45:06):
So,
I mean,
it's not that,
that doesn't have any meaning,
but it's not like some type of magical,
you know,
a process of objectivity where all of this data and evidence is being weighed that we don't have access to.
But like we know that somehow through these like arbiters,
you know,
(45:26):
the truth has been produced,
you know,
I mean,
what they're really what they're really weighing is what is going to be the least consequential for the university financially and it's like their HR and their PR yeah,
because the administrators make these decisions in consultation with their lawyers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it's also like,
(45:47):
oh,
we're making it a big public thing.
Now they have to consider that when they're making this decision about,
you know,
what they're gonna do.
Yeah.
And I think we're getting right to the heart of like this,
our emotional and personal responses to the experience of organizing this campaign and um feel like even just going back and remembering as we were kind of prepping for this and looking back over old emails was bringing back a lot of feelings.
(46:23):
I,
you know,
I,
I texted you a couple of times or whatever just to be like,
oh I didn't realize I was going to be getting so angry and like,
fuck this person and da da,
da da because it still kind of hurts sometimes.
Um And that's something that I noticed just talking to a lot of people who were involved,
(46:44):
you know,
we talked before about this feeling of betrayal from certain faculty and I saw a lot of people feel that way,
just kind of feel like it's really hard to feel like um some people in a position of power are going to be your um allies or have your back or maybe they're people that you felt emotionally vulnerable with before or felt you could trust and then to suddenly feel that they're like very cold or they're treating you with suspicion.
(47:17):
It,
it,
it definitely hurts.
Um And I think that something we had to learn was that we really needed to take care of each other.
I mean,
obviously self care and like,
collective care are kind of like buzzwords right now.
But I mean,
I do feel like there was a lot of emotional labor um,
(47:38):
involved in this type of organizing because it seemed like almost any time you talk to somebody,
they were kind of like going through it or having an emotional reaction to something or it was bringing up,
you know,
personal experiences that they'd had,
you know,
or title nine experiences or just like sexual assault to add on to that,
(47:59):
like,
well,
one and I know we talked about this a lot but just like the ways when we talked about like reaching out to all these people like that was,
you know,
we did that in a way of like,
with support and like doing that,
obviously,
we're not like coldhearted people,
but it's like,
it ended up also being like this kind of like collective.
(48:22):
Like,
I don't know if you say like counseling,
but like,
obviously,
we were really like,
you know,
asking people to like rehash things that were really,
you know,
traumatic and we were holding space for each other.
I don't know.
I'm not saying,
I think that a lot of times people's like,
radicalization comes from like fucked up experiences or being able to like,
(48:47):
collectively understand and make sense of these um without like blaming yourself or just feeling like nihilistic about them.
And so I think like,
there's a lot of,
there was a lot of upsetting feelings coming up.
And at the same time,
we were also,
like,
able to bring those,
(49:07):
those things forward by feeling really supported by each other and feeling not alone and making sure people didn't feel alone because otherwise how can you talk about all these things and,
and share what needs to be shared?
Right.
Yeah.
And I mean,
I mean,
if it's not obvious just to say,
(49:28):
like when we did talk to people about coming forward,
there was,
I mean,
I guess it wasn't unexpected,
but I still was kind of struck by just how much fear there was,
you know,
and definitely,
I,
I mean,
definitely,
you know,
more people didn't come forward than did ultimately and,
(49:48):
and then there was the decision of whether to put your name on something or not and,
you know,
whether to,
to file a Title Nine or whether to talk to a journalist and just for anyone that's listening to really understand that there's a lot of emotion and fear and like,
just,
(50:10):
I don't know,
a lot went into making those decisions for each individual,
you know,
and so,
I mean,
obviously from our perspective,
we're like,
hoping that people will come forward,
but also trying to create a situation where no one is pressured um because no one should have to be in that position.
And so this idea that people just love the limelight and they're trying to get attention,
(50:34):
you know.
Um,
just so far from what I experienced.
Totally.
Totally.
Yeah,
it was,
it was a big ask,
a big ask to come forward or also even just rehash those things with that alone with,
like in a title nine hearing with lawyers and like,
(50:54):
admin.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
should we talk about our takeaways?
Yeah,
I think,
I think it's time.
Um,
I mean,
what are your big ones?
I think that we,
(51:15):
you know,
we,
I think in talking about and reflecting on this,
obviously like the real,
I think the biggest one was like that and I think some of us knew that this was gonna be the case but that these institutions that are supposed to be dealing with gender violence failed us.
(51:36):
You know,
they don't the institute,
the university title nine,
like those things that when people do more direct action,
they say,
why don't you go through these channels?
They don't work and they're part of the problem.
It's not that they don't work like they are working as they're supposed to and that they're not actually for,
(51:57):
they're not trying to topple patriarchy,
they're not trying to end gender,
that's just not their goal.
They don't have that incentive.
But one of the really amazing things about this story is that collective feminist organizing that included direct action was successful,
(52:18):
you know,
I mean,
I think that obviously there's still more to be done and that's another takeaway about this but we do rarely see any wins,
you know.
And we,
and it's pretty inspiring that so many people came together and organized in so many different ways and got this person fired,
(52:42):
you know,
and,
and maybe got some,
you know,
peace of mind for many of us in some way,
you know.
But just seeing that difference of what organizing worked and what didn't I think is a major takeaway in this.
Yeah.
What would you wanna tell students who might be listening?
(53:07):
Uh Do you have any advice or just thoughts for anyone who might want to try to do some kind of organizing on their campus?
Obviously,
I think the,
the biggest thing for me is making those relationships with each other coming together.
If you're,
if there's exploitation,
(53:29):
if there's things happening,
oppressive things happening to share that with each other and find each other and build together.
Another thing from this that I,
we were talking about is the ways that we used sort of feminist forms of knowledge sharing.
(53:53):
And I think like really talking with each other and,
and doing what they say is called gossiping,
you know,
and sharing those personal experiences because when you find that you're having all similar experiences,
that's gonna be your point of intervention that you,
that you,
(54:13):
you know,
can all take action on together and that could be like the rupture and become a really big movement that makes some big change.
What what do,
what do you think,
what would you say becoming a feminist,
like,
like so many,
(54:33):
like,
radicalizing processes does involve heartbreak and it involves kind of having to let go of certain people and relationships that you thought,
you know,
were a certain way and they turn out not to be.
But it also does involve developing like more authentic and um egalitarian,
(54:55):
you know,
and meaningful bonds once you can kind of like,
you know,
once you can like that,
that are built on a better foundation,
ultimately,
you know,
and so like,
once you can let go of that stuff,
honestly,
it's,
it's good,
it's good because you can do a lot out here.
Yeah,
I guess I really wanted to just shout out or say something about like,
(55:17):
just that I really appreciate the people who did come forward.
Um And,
and who,
who,
you know,
took those kinds of risks and dealt with all the feelings and the fallout.
Um because I do feel like that's,
that's really kind of what made it all happen.
And um I,
I hope that,
(55:38):
like,
I was able to support that,
but,
you know,
I,
I,
I just want to recognize it wasn't quite the same,
like emotional stakes for me.
Um Well,
thank you so much for talking with me and um I feel excited to see if more cool feminist organizing happens.
(56:00):
Me too.
Thanks for having me on and,
and um rehashing all of this.
I know and I feel like I need to go like run around the block a bunch of times,
like weird energy,
punch a punching bag a few times.
(56:20):
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