November 21, 2023 • 27 mins
In this episode, David and Laura recap the unprecedented wave of pro-Palestine organizing happening on U.S. college campuses over the past few weeks. We also discuss the repression these movements are facing from campus administrators and pro-Israel organizations (who have a long history of targeting campus anti-Zionist organizing). We talk about the role of universities in social movements, where this movement might be headed, and what we'd like to see happen in the coming weeks. We also reflect on the tendency of the pundit class to dismiss youth organizing and infantilize young people who are leading the way in the fight for Palestinian liberation.
Some articles mentioned in our discussion:
Appalling: Columbia University suspends JVP and SJP student chapters
20 arrested during protest at Brown University | WPRI.com
CUNY stands with Palestine liberation, despite what the chancellor says – Mondoweiss
CUNY faculty and staff: We reject the Palestine Exception to free speech at CUNY – Mondoweiss
Student Protests for Gaza Targeted by Pro-Israel Groups for Alleged Civil Rights Violations
Israel’s War on American Student Activists | The Nation
Columbia University Apartheid Divest: Who we are
Cops, Colleges, and Counterinsurgency: An Interview with Dylan Rodriguez
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
Hello and welcome to office hours,
a podcast about campus politics.
In the end times,
we are your hosts,
Laura and David.
This week,
David and I are going to be talking about the growing campus movement for Palestine as part of a larger movement for a ceasefire and for an end to Israeli colonization of Palestine.
(00:45):
Ok.
Hi,
everyone.
So David and I are here today um just to do kind of a brief update and overview of what's been happening on our campuses the last few weeks in terms of Palestine organizing.
Um We're,
we're working right now on getting some interviews with folks who are organizing on the ground.
(01:08):
Um That's still in the works,
but for now,
we really wanted to seize the moment just to provide an update on something that is,
is happening right now.
That's um so time sensitive and it's just um you know,
every,
every day there's new news because we're really in the middle of a,
a growing movement.
(01:28):
So,
um I'll start out just by providing a really brief summary.
Um Basically,
you know,
uh since October 7th,
there's been this growing movement around the bombing of Gaza Cease fire movement and also a movement drawing attention to and resisting Israeli colonization in Palestine.
(01:53):
And increasingly,
it's looking like uh college campuses in this country are a really important site of struggle for some reasons that we'll talk about in a minute.
Um Not surprising really when you think about the fact that um campuses have been suppressing free speech on the issue of Palestine for decades,
(02:16):
in part,
as a result of a lot of concerted um organizing by pro Israel groups.
So it's not surprising that as uh college students started to organize and protest university administrators,
you know,
almost universally came out quite unequivocally in support of Israel.
(02:40):
And we're very quick to denounce um pro Palestine organizing as anti Semitic.
Um we've seen since then just uh uh continued growth of,
of these protests and demonstrations,
you know,
every day there's more happening on college campuses around the country.
(03:01):
Um And then starting last week,
I believe we started to have actually earlier,
we started to have these suspensions of students for justice and Palestine chapters.
And in at least one case,
maybe more,
I'm not sure if,
you know,
David,
um a Jewish voice for peace chapters on campuses.
(03:21):
Now,
we had heard that this happened at the University of Florida a few weeks ago and then just this past week,
Columbia University suspended its S JP and JVP chapters,
BRANDEIS,
um uh suspended its S JP chapter and I believe also,
(03:43):
uh uh let me,
let me open this link about Brandy because I think there was,
uh a little bit more to it than that.
Let's see,
Brandy.
And while you're doing that,
I just wanna jump in on your,
your point about the,
like the expansiveness of the repression.
We are starting to get some reporting on the nature of those networks and what they look like and we'll,
(04:04):
we'll link some of this stuff in the show notes,
but I wanted to highlight two of them that I've seen recently ones from the nation and it's from November 17th to headline Israel's war on American student activists uh by James Bamford.
And it looks at this group,
the Israel on Campus coalition which has used informants to spy on pro Palestinian campus groups.
And then another piece from the intercept titled inside the nationwide campaign to intimidate students protesting for Gaza.
(04:33):
And so we're now kind of getting at least some journalism that is trying to investigate these networks.
Um We know things like campus watch,
you know,
are,
are old and have been around for a while,
but we're getting a little bit more attention to how these mechanisms work across campus.
Yeah.
(04:54):
Um That's,
yeah,
that thanks David.
That's,
that's,
that's interesting.
I haven't read that article but uh with the Nation,
um that's the BRANDEIS one just says,
I guess this,
it was the first school to ban students for justice in Palestine on campus.
Uh Although I mean,
prior to that Florida,
Governor desantis had coordinate with the State University system,
(05:15):
Chancellor Ray Rodriguez and had sent a letter to Florida Universities claiming that the group should be deactivated over their alleged support for terrorism on that one.
Interestingly enough,
I think yesterday,
um the AC lu issued a statement that it uh that ST S JP the University of Florida Chapter is suing.
(05:40):
Um the,
let's see,
students for uh University of Florida Chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine was presented by the AC Lu,
the AC Lu of Florida and Palestine legal filed a lawsuit challenging an order issued by the Chancellor of the State University system.
So there's starting to be some push back.
(06:03):
Um So,
yeah,
just um going back to just the overall narrative here,
you know,
the coverage that I've seen,
not surprisingly,
it focuses on these private elite colleges.
Um You know,
probably for a lot of reasons,
they seem to be some of the first ones to be really cracking down.
Although I mean,
University of Florida is a public university system.
(06:26):
Uh And,
but what we're,
we're seeing,
which is also interesting is that this doesn't really seem to be effective in terms of stopping the,
the movement.
I think there's,
there's just,
there's,
there's a lot of grassroots momentum and energy right now.
I think that um that deactivating these groups is actually probably going to energize the movement more.
(06:51):
Um We're already seeing Columbia university students responded by announcing that they were kind of forming this coalition of student groups,
the Columbia University apartheid divest.
Um And I think,
you know,
30 some different Columbia student groups have signed on to it.
Um There's,
(07:12):
there's been really been,
uh uh I would say a pretty consistently defiant response.
I know there's been protests,
you know,
at all of these uh universities and just as someone who just kind of has been on social media a lot lately,
just following activity,
you know,
we're recording this on Saturdays at the 18th today.
(07:36):
You know,
yesterday was another kind of day of shutdown for Palestine and I,
I was just seeing dozens of actions on campuses just kind of in my Mid Atlantic region.
Um So,
you know,
the,
the the scale of things is,
is pretty,
you know,
pretty significant at the moment.
(07:58):
Um I,
I wanted to jump in on that just because,
um although I don't want to overplay the role of elected officials in this because they don't necessarily free us or liberate us.
But I did see that a few members of New York's congressional delegate delegation and some of the state senators signed a letter um demanding that Columbia reinstate S JP and JVP on their campus.
(08:21):
So that was like a OC and Jamal Bowman,
probably Julia Salzar as well.
I'd have to check again,
but some extra um being added to that,
but again,
kind of circling back to what you were saying.
It does seem that a lot of the emphasis ends up being on that,
that situation in Columbia rather than the Florida schools and maybe some of the other um public uh institutions.
(08:43):
But with that,
I think you're totally right.
Which is that college campuses and universities are one of the two major like locations and sources of this struggle.
The other being,
you know,
JVP chapters that are unconnected to um you know,
(09:04):
campuses and of course,
you know,
tons of different Palestinian uh civil society groups that are also participating,
but college campuses are a main source of this and it's quite generalized.
I think the media would like us to think it's sort of,
oh,
just elite snotty uh students at Columbia and Harvard who are overprivileged and uh beholden to woke ideology.
(09:30):
But I saw a recent piece um summarizing all the different actions in the University of California system.
And you see it's,
it's up and down.
It's not only at the U CS,
it's also at the CAL States.
It is something that is happening across the US uh generalizing across college campuses.
And it's an opportunity a lot,
(09:53):
I see a lot of um teach ins happening,
students organizing demonstrations.
Um It galvanizing divestment campaigns and getting more people on board with the B DS movement.
So there's a variety of ways this is playing out,
but it,
it certainly feels like it's generalizing at the same time,
the national kind of pundit class is sort of saying that students,
(10:18):
you know,
they are,
you know,
they,
they have a,
a too narrow view of the conflict and they're just,
you know,
these,
these childish un uninformed,
these uninformed babies who haven't yet figured out the,
the nuances of the complexity of the world.
I read,
(10:38):
I read a tweet that said,
you know,
the Israel Palestine situation takes years to understand and these trendy young people,
they're just jumping on,
you know,
this pro Palestine trend.
It,
you know,
when they get older,
they're gonna look back and they were gonna regret what they did,
you know,
and of course,
(10:59):
again,
like implying that you have to have a phd in order to understand,
you know,
you,
you don't have a right to speak out when you see genocide because you don't have enough information.
There's always been an effort to disempower young people in this way and infantilize them.
Um Yeah,
let's,
(11:19):
let's check in for a minute about our unions.
How are our academic unions doing on this,
David?
Oh,
boy,
that's a great question.
I mean,
for my own campus,
I'm not hearing much of anything.
Um I wouldn't,
I wouldn't anticipate it coming from my union just kind of knowing,
you know,
overall that it's not,
it isn't uh a social justice oriented union at the moment.
(11:43):
But then the flip side is some of the,
some of the folks that we've been monitoring around the UC strike.
Some of those rank and file groups within the UAW have been pushing.
All right,
how can academic labor unions play a role in this?
And so,
um passing B DS uh resolutions through their rank and file organizations.
(12:06):
So if this is actually one of those things where I tend to think if your union is operating in that kind of service oriented model and just focusing on the contract and benefits and wages,
it's,
it's likely to be a union not stepping into the fray and not doing very much.
But if you're,
if you have,
you know,
sort of prominent rank and file movement,
(12:26):
if your union is interested in community um bargaining for the common good building a more fighting union,
my suspicion is,
it's more likely to be willing to step out there to organize members around this issue,
maybe even do some,
you know,
consciousness raising around the issue and consider that labor plays a role in,
you know,
this democratic process which is demanding an end to the fighting,
(12:50):
demanding a cease fire,
demanding,
you know,
stop spending billions of dollars a year on this war machine.
And I mean,
I think that rank and file unionism from below very much has something to say about like this is what democracy is.
We,
um we need to play a role in our society.
We can't just be put aside and allow like,
(13:11):
you know,
the,
the people who rule us to make these decisions.
What about your union?
Oh,
my gosh.
Well,
I'm in a FT,
I mean,
a FT has a really terrible history.
It's just,
it's always been a very strong supporter of Israel.
Um,
I don't know,
I know there's efforts to,
to research kind of,
(13:31):
you know,
A FTS financial investments.
I don't know much about that.
I know the current president has been called out for just,
you know,
using,
using her presidency just as a her personal platform to,
you know,
uh say pro Israel stuff.
I,
I mean,
the A FT is a very top down union as well.
(13:52):
It's not apparently,
you know,
very easy to reform.
Um I,
I do think if anything is gonna happen,
it's gonna be rank and file for sure.
And I,
I actually feel like this is one of these situations where time is extremely critical.
I feel a lot of urgency.
(14:12):
I think there are more long term projects that are important,
like trying to get our unions to support B DS.
But I do think that if we're really trying to stop the killing,
you know,
which every day has a,
has a horrific body count that we need to be thinking in terms of days and weeks and not like months and years,
(14:36):
you know what I mean?
So in that sense,
I do feel like,
I mean,
I guess now we're kind of starting to get into the question of what,
what would we like to see happen?
What do we think needs to happen?
And I mean,
I've kind of said this to you David,
but just in terms of our campuses being such a strategic location and um also just looking at the history of,
(15:01):
you know,
social movements in this country,
I do feel like we need to have uh a national student strike.
I think that anything that is gonna happen is gonna be led by undergrads because they are just so much more radical,
they're so much,
um faster to act.
(15:22):
Um And,
and I really do hope that as academic workers that we would be able to support that,
I do think it won't be,
you know,
through legal sanctioned,
you know,
strikes that are,
that are authorized by our leadership.
I don't think that we have time to try to make that happen and I don't think it's likely to happen.
So I think it'll be a matter of how organized and how brave people are willing to be.
(15:45):
I mean,
I think that the,
the stakes are so incredibly high that I,
I,
I'm,
I'm,
I'm,
I'm hoping that people might,
you know,
feel that,
I don't know.
What do you think,
David?
Do you think that's unrealistic?
Do you think that,
I mean,
there's this,
to me,
there's this whole thing where,
like,
it's often very unpredictable how,
(16:07):
um a crisis sort of generalizes like a crisis in terms of like the the types of pressure that a social movement can put on society.
And so like I was,
as you were talking,
I was just thinking about the like the first wave of the Black Lives Matter uprising,
the 2014 wave and how it had this moment that was in the streets.
(16:30):
But then the following fall,
it generalized through college campuses and it kind of went in that direction.
And right now to me,
there seems to be a nice,
nice is probably the wrong word but a balance happening.
Like I just saw before we got on that people had shut down um a major thoroughfare in Chicago.
(16:52):
And then of course,
yesterday,
the Bay Bridge was shut down.
A lot of those things are happening outside of campuses but campus is really important.
Yeah.
And so I think that,
but you,
but you're bringing up what,
what kind of expansion or generalization can happen on college campuses because right now you have sit in here,
(17:13):
you have demo here,
teach in here.
It's happening almost everywhere but it isn't necessarily expanding.
Um Possibly,
yeah,
possibly some,
some campuses shutting down.
Um having full walkouts.
It's hard for me to envision it just because i it's not,
it's not the energy that I see online,
(17:33):
it's not gonna be happening on your Yeah.
Um So just weighing in on it from that perspective of like the day to day is hard,
but I think it's true.
I mean,
I think.
Mhm.
I think there are,
there are,
there are,
there are quite a few campuses that could have the potential for that.
(17:54):
Well,
and that's where if you look at the UUC coming up,
I think the UC and the level of coordinating that they already have due to those,
you know,
that,
that had,
lays a lot of groundwork,
you know,
in terms of relationships and networks that can be mobilized.
You know,
I think that a lot of um the these schools in the New York City area,
(18:17):
like there's also just schools that are in dense metropolitan areas where there is a lot of political activity happening already.
Um where it kind of feels a little more like there's an organic relationship between the city and the school.
I mean,
probably not with the elite school like Columbia,
but places like Cuny.
(18:38):
Well,
it'll be interesting to see if the kinds of networking and the kinds of logistical capacities and trust and relationships that were built up in this last big wave of strikes,
UC Wreckers Temple.
Um you know,
also new school,
that whole wave.
Uh So we,
(18:59):
you know,
we saw Eastern Michigan,
we talked about all like did those pre existing things also feed in here?
And I think at least in terms of the UAW rank and file stuff I'm seeing in California,
the answer seems to be very affirmatively,
yes,
they like those networks and those um capacities are being put to use right away now.
(19:20):
Um And so,
yeah,
I would look to something like what's going on at records.
They also had that big strike,
what's going on at Temple.
Cuny,
I saw the,
there were,
there,
there have been some actions going on.
There was a guy,
there was a guy in yesterday at the graduate center.
Um Cuny has,
has often been a hotbed of activism.
(19:40):
Um So,
yeah,
for sure,
I I think that campuses can,
can exert pressure on the rest of the society.
And I think that you see this obsession about downplaying and denigrating students as a kind of ideological project to make sure that it doesn't generalize and to make sure that the outsiders looking in,
(20:06):
just see young people in this negative stigmatized light rather than seeing them as,
right,
the the the kind of heartbeat of our society,
the next generation that are unwilling to just compromise on these big moral issues and are pushing the society forward,
which they always have going back to your point,
(20:26):
right?
Whether it be anti-war movement,
whether it be the civil rights movement,
right?
You're talking about 1617,
18 year olds um playing a huge role in kind of just rejecting the old hierarchies and the old,
you know,
platitudes about how the world should work and putting their bodies on the line.
And the young people that we're seeing out here today are following in that,
(20:51):
that tradition Yeah,
it's,
that,
that aspect is very inspiring,
you know,
and I think they need as,
as faculty and unionized faculty.
I certainly think they need us even in places where we're not,
maybe not,
the union isn't ready to step out and do big actions.
They definitely need us to use our,
(21:12):
you know,
not lead but be like protecting people,
protecting them when they get targeted for harassment coming out with big statements and,
you know,
supporting the groups that are getting harassed or docs or supporting the groups that are getting de chartered all that stuff.
Um I do wanna say one thing,
sorry,
are you,
(21:32):
are you in the middle of a thought?
I do wanna say one thing about faculty and especially tenured faculty.
You know,
I'm thinking about that,
that article you sent me by Dylan Rodriguez David,
which we plan on discussing at some point on this,
this podcast when we get a chance.
But it's a,
it's a very fiery and in my opinion,
(21:53):
um honest evaluation of the um conser conservative nature of academia and of,
you know,
kind of a,
a academic intellectuals in particularly and especially those that are kind of part of a,
(22:14):
um I don't know what I can't really remember the language that he uses,
but that are kind of part of a quote unquote,
like woke academia or whatever intelligentsia.
And,
you know,
these are the kinds of moments where people show their true colors um I know that there is a faculty for Justice in the Palestine National Group that is forming.
(22:36):
I think that is a very good thing.
I have to say that I feel like it's gonna be a shit show just because of how tenured faculty are.
And I'll also just share as an anecdote that I went to one meeting,
there was one tenured faculty person there and she managed to throw a wrench in the entire meeting by wor like worrying and calling into doubt.
(23:00):
The one thing that people were trying to do which was publish a letter and she managed to raise so many doubts about it that it would be too antagonistic that,
that the students decided not to,
to publish it.
I don't think that's the only reason,
but I just wanna say that again,
like please faculty get out of the way.
And I mean,
(23:20):
I'm a faculty member myself.
It's just it,
there,
there's a very strong structural element,
you know,
I can see it my in myself when you work day in day out with administrators,
you develop relationships with them.
It's harder to be very confrontational with them.
Um But just get out of the way of the young people and please don't um don't try to stop them from mobilizing.
(23:46):
Don't try to question whether they'll,
don't use your clout to make them doubt themselves,
you know,
uh please,
this is this,
this is far too important and the actions that we need.
I have to be bold and aggressive,
you know.
Yeah.
(24:06):
And you know,
I always,
you know,
something that I think is very powerful about when the status quo is kind of shocked or broken,
at least temporarily.
And you have a social movement generalizing is that things that were not possible are on the table and in the context of our daily lives as faculty,
one of the things is we have these big,
(24:28):
you know,
these big gaps and big f big forms of estrangement and alienation between faculty and students.
And if there's anything that this is a moment to not get in the way,
but also to allow for the development of solidarity because like there is a moment where maybe if there's a big action or a big strike happening,
(24:48):
happening on campus,
there's gonna be a break in the,
the day to day,
like the obsession about grades or the whatever it is.
And there's gonna be a moment where people show up and they find themselves in places that are different than they had before.
You're gonna be,
you know,
potentially interacting with somebody in a sit and you hadn't done that before,
you're gonna have opportunities to be a different person with students.
(25:09):
And I think that's super important.
I think for example,
about being a grad student in occupations where some faculty were in them and the kinds of relationships that are then possible.
And I think that I love your idea of like,
please.
Right.
Don't block the progress that students are making and then I would just add on to it,
(25:30):
be open to developing connections and solidarity that our day to day lives just won't make possible because we're,
we're structurally set up and,
and to have all this alienation and so forth.
So it's like the possibility of something different is available.
That's what draws me to social movements and I want others to feel that way.
(25:51):
Uh,
people who are kind of resistant to getting involved,
I think are sometimes sort of bristle or they're fearful that,
you know,
they don't know what it is,
but it's the possibility of something more,
more valuable.
Yeah,
that's beautiful.
David sounds like a,
a nice note on which to end since we're out of time here.
(26:13):
Yeah.
So we will,
um,
link to all the stuff we talked about.
I think we should bring up that Dylan Rodriguez,
um,
interview into one of our,
one of our chats.
I think it would be great.
It's a very powerful interview and we're gonna be keeping our finger on the pulse of all all these,
these actions that are going on and keeping people up to date on Palestine solidarity,
(26:38):
Palestine liberation movement and to attempt to stop our government from funding and actively participating in a genocide.
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(27:02):
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Bye.
Hello and welcome to office hours,
a podcast about campus politics.
In the end times,
we are your hosts,
Laura and David.
This week,
David and I are going to be talking about the growing campus movement for Palestine as part of a larger movement for a ceasefire and for an end to Israeli colonization of Palestine.
(00:45):
Ok.
Hi,
everyone.
So David and I are here today um just to do kind of a brief update and overview of what's been happening on our campuses the last few weeks in terms of Palestine organizing.
Um We're,
we're working right now on getting some interviews with folks who are organizing on the ground.
(01:08):
Um That's still in the works,
but for now,
we really wanted to seize the moment just to provide an update on something that is,
is happening right now.
That's um so time sensitive and it's just um you know,
every,
every day there's new news because we're really in the middle of a,
a growing movement.
(01:28):
So,
um I'll start out just by providing a really brief summary.
Um Basically,
you know,
uh since October 7th,
there's been this growing movement around the bombing of Gaza Cease fire movement and also a movement drawing attention to and resisting Israeli colonization in Palestine.
(01:53):
And increasingly,
it's looking like uh college campuses in this country are a really important site of struggle for some reasons that we'll talk about in a minute.
Um Not surprising really when you think about the fact that um campuses have been suppressing free speech on the issue of Palestine for decades,
(02:16):
in part,
as a result of a lot of concerted um organizing by pro Israel groups.
So it's not surprising that as uh college students started to organize and protest university administrators,
you know,
almost universally came out quite unequivocally in support of Israel.
(02:40):
And we're very quick to denounce um pro Palestine organizing as anti Semitic.
Um we've seen since then just uh uh continued growth of,
of these protests and demonstrations,
you know,
every day there's more happening on college campuses around the country.
(03:01):
Um And then starting last week,
I believe we started to have actually earlier,
we started to have these suspensions of students for justice and Palestine chapters.
And in at least one case,
maybe more,
I'm not sure if,
you know,
David,
um a Jewish voice for peace chapters on campuses.
(03:21):
Now,
we had heard that this happened at the University of Florida a few weeks ago and then just this past week,
Columbia University suspended its S JP and JVP chapters,
BRANDEIS,
um uh suspended its S JP chapter and I believe also,
(03:43):
uh uh let me,
let me open this link about Brandy because I think there was,
uh a little bit more to it than that.
Let's see,
Brandy.
And while you're doing that,
I just wanna jump in on your,
your point about the,
like the expansiveness of the repression.
We are starting to get some reporting on the nature of those networks and what they look like and we'll,
(04:04):
we'll link some of this stuff in the show notes,
but I wanted to highlight two of them that I've seen recently ones from the nation and it's from November 17th to headline Israel's war on American student activists uh by James Bamford.
And it looks at this group,
the Israel on Campus coalition which has used informants to spy on pro Palestinian campus groups.
And then another piece from the intercept titled inside the nationwide campaign to intimidate students protesting for Gaza.
(04:33):
And so we're now kind of getting at least some journalism that is trying to investigate these networks.
Um We know things like campus watch,
you know,
are,
are old and have been around for a while,
but we're getting a little bit more attention to how these mechanisms work across campus.
Yeah.
(04:54):
Um That's,
yeah,
that thanks David.
That's,
that's,
that's interesting.
I haven't read that article but uh with the Nation,
um that's the BRANDEIS one just says,
I guess this,
it was the first school to ban students for justice in Palestine on campus.
Uh Although I mean,
prior to that Florida,
Governor desantis had coordinate with the State University system,
(05:15):
Chancellor Ray Rodriguez and had sent a letter to Florida Universities claiming that the group should be deactivated over their alleged support for terrorism on that one.
Interestingly enough,
I think yesterday,
um the AC lu issued a statement that it uh that ST S JP the University of Florida Chapter is suing.
(05:40):
Um the,
let's see,
students for uh University of Florida Chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine was presented by the AC Lu,
the AC Lu of Florida and Palestine legal filed a lawsuit challenging an order issued by the Chancellor of the State University system.
So there's starting to be some push back.
(06:03):
Um So,
yeah,
just um going back to just the overall narrative here,
you know,
the coverage that I've seen,
not surprisingly,
it focuses on these private elite colleges.
Um You know,
probably for a lot of reasons,
they seem to be some of the first ones to be really cracking down.
Although I mean,
University of Florida is a public university system.
(06:26):
Uh And,
but what we're,
we're seeing,
which is also interesting is that this doesn't really seem to be effective in terms of stopping the,
the movement.
I think there's,
there's just,
there's,
there's a lot of grassroots momentum and energy right now.
I think that um that deactivating these groups is actually probably going to energize the movement more.
(06:51):
Um We're already seeing Columbia university students responded by announcing that they were kind of forming this coalition of student groups,
the Columbia University apartheid divest.
Um And I think,
you know,
30 some different Columbia student groups have signed on to it.
Um There's,
(07:12):
there's been really been,
uh uh I would say a pretty consistently defiant response.
I know there's been protests,
you know,
at all of these uh universities and just as someone who just kind of has been on social media a lot lately,
just following activity,
you know,
we're recording this on Saturdays at the 18th today.
(07:36):
You know,
yesterday was another kind of day of shutdown for Palestine and I,
I was just seeing dozens of actions on campuses just kind of in my Mid Atlantic region.
Um So,
you know,
the,
the the scale of things is,
is pretty,
you know,
pretty significant at the moment.
(07:58):
Um I,
I wanted to jump in on that just because,
um although I don't want to overplay the role of elected officials in this because they don't necessarily free us or liberate us.
But I did see that a few members of New York's congressional delegate delegation and some of the state senators signed a letter um demanding that Columbia reinstate S JP and JVP on their campus.
(08:21):
So that was like a OC and Jamal Bowman,
probably Julia Salzar as well.
I'd have to check again,
but some extra um being added to that,
but again,
kind of circling back to what you were saying.
It does seem that a lot of the emphasis ends up being on that,
that situation in Columbia rather than the Florida schools and maybe some of the other um public uh institutions.
(08:43):
But with that,
I think you're totally right.
Which is that college campuses and universities are one of the two major like locations and sources of this struggle.
The other being,
you know,
JVP chapters that are unconnected to um you know,
(09:04):
campuses and of course,
you know,
tons of different Palestinian uh civil society groups that are also participating,
but college campuses are a main source of this and it's quite generalized.
I think the media would like us to think it's sort of,
oh,
just elite snotty uh students at Columbia and Harvard who are overprivileged and uh beholden to woke ideology.
(09:30):
But I saw a recent piece um summarizing all the different actions in the University of California system.
And you see it's,
it's up and down.
It's not only at the U CS,
it's also at the CAL States.
It is something that is happening across the US uh generalizing across college campuses.
And it's an opportunity a lot,
(09:53):
I see a lot of um teach ins happening,
students organizing demonstrations.
Um It galvanizing divestment campaigns and getting more people on board with the B DS movement.
So there's a variety of ways this is playing out,
but it,
it certainly feels like it's generalizing at the same time,
the national kind of pundit class is sort of saying that students,
(10:18):
you know,
they are,
you know,
they,
they have a,
a too narrow view of the conflict and they're just,
you know,
these,
these childish un uninformed,
these uninformed babies who haven't yet figured out the,
the nuances of the complexity of the world.
I read,
(10:38):
I read a tweet that said,
you know,
the Israel Palestine situation takes years to understand and these trendy young people,
they're just jumping on,
you know,
this pro Palestine trend.
It,
you know,
when they get older,
they're gonna look back and they were gonna regret what they did,
you know,
and of course,
(10:59):
again,
like implying that you have to have a phd in order to understand,
you know,
you,
you don't have a right to speak out when you see genocide because you don't have enough information.
There's always been an effort to disempower young people in this way and infantilize them.
Um Yeah,
let's,
(11:19):
let's check in for a minute about our unions.
How are our academic unions doing on this,
David?
Oh,
boy,
that's a great question.
I mean,
for my own campus,
I'm not hearing much of anything.
Um I wouldn't,
I wouldn't anticipate it coming from my union just kind of knowing,
you know,
overall that it's not,
it isn't uh a social justice oriented union at the moment.
(11:43):
But then the flip side is some of the,
some of the folks that we've been monitoring around the UC strike.
Some of those rank and file groups within the UAW have been pushing.
All right,
how can academic labor unions play a role in this?
And so,
um passing B DS uh resolutions through their rank and file organizations.
(12:06):
So if this is actually one of those things where I tend to think if your union is operating in that kind of service oriented model and just focusing on the contract and benefits and wages,
it's,
it's likely to be a union not stepping into the fray and not doing very much.
But if you're,
if you have,
you know,
sort of prominent rank and file movement,
(12:26):
if your union is interested in community um bargaining for the common good building a more fighting union,
my suspicion is,
it's more likely to be willing to step out there to organize members around this issue,
maybe even do some,
you know,
consciousness raising around the issue and consider that labor plays a role in,
you know,
this democratic process which is demanding an end to the fighting,
(12:50):
demanding a cease fire,
demanding,
you know,
stop spending billions of dollars a year on this war machine.
And I mean,
I think that rank and file unionism from below very much has something to say about like this is what democracy is.
We,
um we need to play a role in our society.
We can't just be put aside and allow like,
(13:11):
you know,
the,
the people who rule us to make these decisions.
What about your union?
Oh,
my gosh.
Well,
I'm in a FT,
I mean,
a FT has a really terrible history.
It's just,
it's always been a very strong supporter of Israel.
Um,
I don't know,
I know there's efforts to,
to research kind of,
(13:31):
you know,
A FTS financial investments.
I don't know much about that.
I know the current president has been called out for just,
you know,
using,
using her presidency just as a her personal platform to,
you know,
uh say pro Israel stuff.
I,
I mean,
the A FT is a very top down union as well.
(13:52):
It's not apparently,
you know,
very easy to reform.
Um I,
I do think if anything is gonna happen,
it's gonna be rank and file for sure.
And I,
I actually feel like this is one of these situations where time is extremely critical.
I feel a lot of urgency.
(14:12):
I think there are more long term projects that are important,
like trying to get our unions to support B DS.
But I do think that if we're really trying to stop the killing,
you know,
which every day has a,
has a horrific body count that we need to be thinking in terms of days and weeks and not like months and years,
(14:36):
you know what I mean?
So in that sense,
I do feel like,
I mean,
I guess now we're kind of starting to get into the question of what,
what would we like to see happen?
What do we think needs to happen?
And I mean,
I've kind of said this to you David,
but just in terms of our campuses being such a strategic location and um also just looking at the history of,
(15:01):
you know,
social movements in this country,
I do feel like we need to have uh a national student strike.
I think that anything that is gonna happen is gonna be led by undergrads because they are just so much more radical,
they're so much,
um faster to act.
(15:22):
Um And,
and I really do hope that as academic workers that we would be able to support that,
I do think it won't be,
you know,
through legal sanctioned,
you know,
strikes that are,
that are authorized by our leadership.
I don't think that we have time to try to make that happen and I don't think it's likely to happen.
So I think it'll be a matter of how organized and how brave people are willing to be.
(15:45):
I mean,
I think that the,
the stakes are so incredibly high that I,
I,
I'm,
I'm,
I'm,
I'm hoping that people might,
you know,
feel that,
I don't know.
What do you think,
David?
Do you think that's unrealistic?
Do you think that,
I mean,
there's this,
to me,
there's this whole thing where,
like,
it's often very unpredictable how,
(16:07):
um a crisis sort of generalizes like a crisis in terms of like the the types of pressure that a social movement can put on society.
And so like I was,
as you were talking,
I was just thinking about the like the first wave of the Black Lives Matter uprising,
the 2014 wave and how it had this moment that was in the streets.
(16:30):
But then the following fall,
it generalized through college campuses and it kind of went in that direction.
And right now to me,
there seems to be a nice,
nice is probably the wrong word but a balance happening.
Like I just saw before we got on that people had shut down um a major thoroughfare in Chicago.
(16:52):
And then of course,
yesterday,
the Bay Bridge was shut down.
A lot of those things are happening outside of campuses but campus is really important.
Yeah.
And so I think that,
but you,
but you're bringing up what,
what kind of expansion or generalization can happen on college campuses because right now you have sit in here,
(17:13):
you have demo here,
teach in here.
It's happening almost everywhere but it isn't necessarily expanding.
Um Possibly,
yeah,
possibly some,
some campuses shutting down.
Um having full walkouts.
It's hard for me to envision it just because i it's not,
it's not the energy that I see online,
(17:33):
it's not gonna be happening on your Yeah.
Um So just weighing in on it from that perspective of like the day to day is hard,
but I think it's true.
I mean,
I think.
Mhm.
I think there are,
there are,
there are,
there are quite a few campuses that could have the potential for that.
(17:54):
Well,
and that's where if you look at the UUC coming up,
I think the UC and the level of coordinating that they already have due to those,
you know,
that,
that had,
lays a lot of groundwork,
you know,
in terms of relationships and networks that can be mobilized.
You know,
I think that a lot of um the these schools in the New York City area,
(18:17):
like there's also just schools that are in dense metropolitan areas where there is a lot of political activity happening already.
Um where it kind of feels a little more like there's an organic relationship between the city and the school.
I mean,
probably not with the elite school like Columbia,
but places like Cuny.
(18:38):
Well,
it'll be interesting to see if the kinds of networking and the kinds of logistical capacities and trust and relationships that were built up in this last big wave of strikes,
UC Wreckers Temple.
Um you know,
also new school,
that whole wave.
Uh So we,
(18:59):
you know,
we saw Eastern Michigan,
we talked about all like did those pre existing things also feed in here?
And I think at least in terms of the UAW rank and file stuff I'm seeing in California,
the answer seems to be very affirmatively,
yes,
they like those networks and those um capacities are being put to use right away now.
(19:20):
Um And so,
yeah,
I would look to something like what's going on at records.
They also had that big strike,
what's going on at Temple.
Cuny,
I saw the,
there were,
there,
there have been some actions going on.
There was a guy,
there was a guy in yesterday at the graduate center.
Um Cuny has,
has often been a hotbed of activism.
(19:40):
Um So,
yeah,
for sure,
I I think that campuses can,
can exert pressure on the rest of the society.
And I think that you see this obsession about downplaying and denigrating students as a kind of ideological project to make sure that it doesn't generalize and to make sure that the outsiders looking in,
(20:06):
just see young people in this negative stigmatized light rather than seeing them as,
right,
the the the kind of heartbeat of our society,
the next generation that are unwilling to just compromise on these big moral issues and are pushing the society forward,
which they always have going back to your point,
(20:26):
right?
Whether it be anti-war movement,
whether it be the civil rights movement,
right?
You're talking about 1617,
18 year olds um playing a huge role in kind of just rejecting the old hierarchies and the old,
you know,
platitudes about how the world should work and putting their bodies on the line.
And the young people that we're seeing out here today are following in that,
(20:51):
that tradition Yeah,
it's,
that,
that aspect is very inspiring,
you know,
and I think they need as,
as faculty and unionized faculty.
I certainly think they need us even in places where we're not,
maybe not,
the union isn't ready to step out and do big actions.
They definitely need us to use our,
(21:12):
you know,
not lead but be like protecting people,
protecting them when they get targeted for harassment coming out with big statements and,
you know,
supporting the groups that are getting harassed or docs or supporting the groups that are getting de chartered all that stuff.
Um I do wanna say one thing,
sorry,
are you,
(21:32):
are you in the middle of a thought?
I do wanna say one thing about faculty and especially tenured faculty.
You know,
I'm thinking about that,
that article you sent me by Dylan Rodriguez David,
which we plan on discussing at some point on this,
this podcast when we get a chance.
But it's a,
it's a very fiery and in my opinion,
(21:53):
um honest evaluation of the um conser conservative nature of academia and of,
you know,
kind of a,
a academic intellectuals in particularly and especially those that are kind of part of a,
(22:14):
um I don't know what I can't really remember the language that he uses,
but that are kind of part of a quote unquote,
like woke academia or whatever intelligentsia.
And,
you know,
these are the kinds of moments where people show their true colors um I know that there is a faculty for Justice in the Palestine National Group that is forming.
(22:36):
I think that is a very good thing.
I have to say that I feel like it's gonna be a shit show just because of how tenured faculty are.
And I'll also just share as an anecdote that I went to one meeting,
there was one tenured faculty person there and she managed to throw a wrench in the entire meeting by wor like worrying and calling into doubt.
(23:00):
The one thing that people were trying to do which was publish a letter and she managed to raise so many doubts about it that it would be too antagonistic that,
that the students decided not to,
to publish it.
I don't think that's the only reason,
but I just wanna say that again,
like please faculty get out of the way.
And I mean,
(23:20):
I'm a faculty member myself.
It's just it,
there,
there's a very strong structural element,
you know,
I can see it my in myself when you work day in day out with administrators,
you develop relationships with them.
It's harder to be very confrontational with them.
Um But just get out of the way of the young people and please don't um don't try to stop them from mobilizing.
(23:46):
Don't try to question whether they'll,
don't use your clout to make them doubt themselves,
you know,
uh please,
this is this,
this is far too important and the actions that we need.
I have to be bold and aggressive,
you know.
Yeah.
(24:06):
And you know,
I always,
you know,
something that I think is very powerful about when the status quo is kind of shocked or broken,
at least temporarily.
And you have a social movement generalizing is that things that were not possible are on the table and in the context of our daily lives as faculty,
one of the things is we have these big,
(24:28):
you know,
these big gaps and big f big forms of estrangement and alienation between faculty and students.
And if there's anything that this is a moment to not get in the way,
but also to allow for the development of solidarity because like there is a moment where maybe if there's a big action or a big strike happening,
(24:48):
happening on campus,
there's gonna be a break in the,
the day to day,
like the obsession about grades or the whatever it is.
And there's gonna be a moment where people show up and they find themselves in places that are different than they had before.
You're gonna be,
you know,
potentially interacting with somebody in a sit and you hadn't done that before,
you're gonna have opportunities to be a different person with students.
(25:09):
And I think that's super important.
I think for example,
about being a grad student in occupations where some faculty were in them and the kinds of relationships that are then possible.
And I think that I love your idea of like,
please.
Right.
Don't block the progress that students are making and then I would just add on to it,
(25:30):
be open to developing connections and solidarity that our day to day lives just won't make possible because we're,
we're structurally set up and,
and to have all this alienation and so forth.
So it's like the possibility of something different is available.
That's what draws me to social movements and I want others to feel that way.
(25:51):
Uh,
people who are kind of resistant to getting involved,
I think are sometimes sort of bristle or they're fearful that,
you know,
they don't know what it is,
but it's the possibility of something more,
more valuable.
Yeah,
that's beautiful.
David sounds like a,
a nice note on which to end since we're out of time here.
(26:13):
Yeah.
So we will,
um,
link to all the stuff we talked about.
I think we should bring up that Dylan Rodriguez,
um,
interview into one of our,
one of our chats.
I think it would be great.
It's a very powerful interview and we're gonna be keeping our finger on the pulse of all all these,
these actions that are going on and keeping people up to date on Palestine solidarity,
(26:38):
Palestine liberation movement and to attempt to stop our government from funding and actively participating in a genocide.
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(27:02):
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