Seattle University Adjunct Unionization Campaign with Larry Cushnie

In this episode we discuss an adjunct unionization campaign that took place at Seattle University, a private Jesuit college in Seattle. The campaign began in 2013 and won a majority vote to unionize with SEIU, but the Seattle U administration sued to stall the vote count. Then, when the votes finally got counted, the admin refused to recognize the union and threatened to take the case up to the Supreme Court. Facing an uphill battle in the courts and the incoming Trump administration’s hostility to labor rights, the union leadership decided to end the campaign. Today, Seattle University’s adjuncts remain without a union. 

We talk with one of the key organizers in the campaign, a former Seattle University adjunct instructor named Larry Cushnie. Larry’s interview sheds light on the challenges that adjunct unionization drives face today and provides valuable lessons for organizers.

Larry's Bio:

Larry Cushnie is a parent and educator teaching politics and cannabis studies at South Seattle College.  In between classes, you can find him wrangling twins, collecting music, and doing crossword puzzles.

 

Episode Transcript

(00:18):
Hello and welcome to office hours,
a podcast about campus politics.
In the end times,
we're your hosts,
Laura Martin and David Spataro.
Today we're going to be talking about an adjunct unionization campaign at Seattle University.
The campaign began in 2013 and won a majority vote to unionize with S E I U.

(00:39):
But the Seattle U administration sued to stall the vote count.
Then when the votes finally got counted,
the admin refused to recognize the union and threatened to take the case all the way up to the Supreme Court facing an uphill battle in the courts and the incoming Trump administration's hostility to labor rights.
The union leadership decided to end the campaign today.

(01:02):
Seattle University's adjuncts remain without a union.
We'll be talking with one of the key organizers in the campaign.
A former Seattle University,
adjunct instructor named Larry Cushnie.
Larry is a parent and educator now teaching politics and cannabis studies at South Seattle College.
Larry's interview sheds light on the challenges that adjunct unionization drives face today and provides valuable lessons for organizers.

(01:45):
So,
uh welcome to the podcast,
Larry.
Uh can you introduce yourself?
And just before we get into talking about the organizing campaign.
Just tell us a little bit aboutworking conditions at Seattle University and what it,
what it's like being an adjunct.
Yeah.
So,
uh my name is Larry Cushnie.
Uh I teach mostly in politics departments.

(02:05):
But I've also taught labor studies,
comparative history of ideas.
So what else are my classes cross listed with,
you know,
the utility infielder of the Adjunct world is definitely a kind of philosophy,
is kind of where I've landed.
So when I was teaching at Seattle University,
we were in some fairly dire straits.

(02:28):
One of the most significant issues that folks were dealing with was it was a regular occurrence for courses to be canceled the day before the quarter started without any warning whatsoever.
And sometimes there was even full classes where they just shifted uh faculty around because they had to fill a load for somebody who is uh 10 year or 10 year track.

(02:48):
And what would happen is all of the benefits,
which were relatively meager at Seattle at the time,
were dependent on how many classes you'd teach in a year.
So I had friends who a class was canceled the day before they lost their health care.
Then at the exact same time were in the middle of treatments for
you know,
various ailments.
And,
and then the other part of it too was I think at the time pay was less than $3000 a class.

(03:13):
Um,
so if you were teaching full time,
you know,
a 3-3-3 on the quarter system load there,
um,
it was meager at best and nobody was getting that many classes.
So it was those conditions combined with,
um,
a lack of space.
I,
when I started there with sharing an office with seven other adjuncts,

(03:33):

that had,
you know,
two computers in it,
trying to have conversations with students was of course impossible.
It's all the typical things you hear about,
you know,
a university that leans extra heavily upon that part-time population um for teaching.
But I was also,
you know,
Dewey,
I,
I had no idea um really what I was getting into coming straight from and still working um on my dissertation in grad school and trying to pick up some extra teaching.

(03:59):
And the expectation at the time before any of these movements began was,
yeah,
this is shitty,
but this is how it works.
Mhm Yeah.
Thanks for that.
That sounds like a shitty environment for,
for working.
We want to hear about the inner workings and the origins of the campaign.
So can you kind of start us off with um what was going on?

(04:21):
You know,
what was the relationship with S E I U and what were the main tactics that you all used to build this unionization campaign?
Absolutely.
So,
I started teaching at Seattle University in 2011 or 12.

And our campaign bega,
with the new academic year.

(04:41):
So it had been fall of 2013.

And at that time,
there had already been conversations that I wasn't aware of with unions that were more traditionally representing teachers.
So,
A F T,

what was the other one?
There's another one they're talking about as well and nobody was really willing to take on the campaign.
Because they figured it was going to be a really expensive fight.

(05:03):
You're talking about a large unit that has to be organized.
It was pretty clear that the university was going to be willing to invest some funds to push back against it.
The irony was not lost on us at a Jesuit,
you know,
social justice focused institution that had buildings on campus named after famous labor leaders that they were going to really mobilize to push back against,

(05:23):
against his campaign.
And so that's kind of how our relationship with S E I U began.
And that's about when I was kind of brought into the process.
They were just starting their kind of national campaign around adjunct unionization and we're one of the first places they're really trying to dip in.
And so it was kind of a,

(05:44):
a marriage of convenience,
the ways in which we were trying to find support for organizing because none of us really had that organizing background of what was forming as our kind of O C our organizing committee.
And so we needed,
we knew we needed the firepower in terms of just pure,
like human hours on the ground as well as the funding for this.

(06:06):
Because there was anticipation that there could potentially be some type of legal fight,
but we had no idea the extent that this was going to go.
So the,
the start and,
and how we ended up with S E I U.
You know,
some of us were savvy enough to understand that it wasn't exactly the first choice.
Because that kind of larger corporate union structure,

(06:29):
you know,
voices can be lost.
But it quickly became our only choice if we want to proceed and,
and know we'd have enough financial and hourly backing to do it and do it.
Right.
Right.
And that seems like a,
a common situation that,
you know,
folks who are trying to organize,
kind of have to have to grapple with.

(06:50):
There's,
there's a lot that you kind of have to compromise when you choose a,
a union like SEIU.
And I definitely want to hear more about your thoughts on that.
But as you say,
they kind of have the,
basically the money and the resources to um kind of,
you know,
run a campaign like that,
that seems like it could be really extensive.

(07:12):
Yeah.
And,
and,
you know,
I think still at that time period,
even though SEIU is quickly becoming the largest or one of the largest unions in the country,
I still think that they had a feeling of being the new kid on the block because so many of the established unions just weren't organizing,

they were more or less treading water and trying to persevere and protecting gains they had made.
And S E I U is one of the few nationwide besides like unite here that were really engaged in massive organizing campaigns.

(07:38):
But,
you know,
because of the scale that they were,
they were organizing within there,
there wasn't a lot of opportunity or attention to the particulars to the idiosyncrasies of where they were organizing,
right?
It was kind of a,
a one-stop model for whatever the kind of workplace was.
And there's elements of that that carried over really well into our campaign,

(07:59):
but there are other elements that did not.
And there was some,
some back and forth and they were willing to adjust.
And,
and it was also overcoming this kind of sense,
I think amongst a lot of our faculty that they are um you know,
terminal degree higher ed white collar unions aren't for those spaces are for others.

(08:21):
And,
and we had to really have those conversations like,
you know,
think about every other teacher in,
in professions around the country,
almost all of them
are
are organized within these spaces.

But especially in the private sector,

or in a private university and especially with one with a kind of religious underpinning.
We
really found out really quickly the reticence of,

(08:44):
of some people not to get involved.

There's widespread agreement but the reticence to be public about their involvement because of how 10.
Yeah,
that's such an interesting aspect of organizing in,
in higher ed is that you'll find that faculty themselves who have terrible working conditions and deserve so much better are so,

(09:06):
invested,
I think for their own kind of sense of self in this idea of a professional class and that
they have been kind of trained in graduate school to think of themselves as,
you know,
these future professionals and it can be kind of a blow to think of,
well,
you know,
you,

(09:26):
you,
you're kind of,
you're,
you're,
you're a worker here and you're kind of actually like in a pretty shitty situation,
you know,
it's,
it's,
it's a thing,
I've definitely come up against a lot myself.
But,

yeah,
graduate school does a number on folks in different ways.
It is a professionalization program as much as anything else,

(09:50):
right.
And,
and I definitely remember being in,
in a Ph.D. program and hearing from folks are like,
oh,
well,
at least it's not an M B A,
at least it's not in law school.
It's not,
you know,
where they are really trying to deconstruct and reconstruct a version of what you are in those professional spaces.
And I was kind of like uh that's,
that's happening in us too.
Like we,
we are not escaping this.

(10:11):
And there's this sense that you know,
academia relies on this idea that because there is this,
you know,
giant air quotes
you know,
shining higher pursuit of knowledge that's going on your expectations around pay is like you,
you have,
you have chosen this path of enlightenment of others and as a result,
you cannot expect much in return.

(10:31):
And that gets embedded in you,
especially if you're at an R1 university and you're TAing a lot as well,
right?
For poverty wages.
That,
that expectation never is challenged.
And,
and so it was interesting to see for a lot of the folks who are trying to organize that light click on and be like,
oh yeah,

(10:51):
I am a worker.
And especially especially because the key thing was getting students to understand the context and once students were on board and once they had a deeper appreciation for what some of their favorite instructors were dealing with.
They were and,
and they also know how much tuition they're paying,
they were irate.
And that is when we grabbed momentum was really when the students got engaged.

(11:15):
I want to follow up on the student thing in a minute.
But before doing so,
you mentioned just overcoming that hurdle.
And I'd love to hear how that happened in the context of the campaign.
Was it primarily through one on one conversations?
What were you all doing as you were doing outreach and so forth?

(11:36):
And then also,
I want,
you mentioned formation of an organizing committee.
How did that organizing committee form?
So those are the two things I wanted to and then maybe we can jump into the student part,
which is a big important part,
right?
Yeah.
So the OC formed,
I think through,
you know,
always by word of mouth and always means clandestine means,

(11:57):
right?
But it,
it really came about with a core group of folks who had already been doing this kind of work behind the scenes and like really behind the scenes,
I've been there for two years and I had heard anything about this.
And,
and I think I developed enough of a reputation.
There was an assumption I would be on board if someone approached me.

(12:18):
And so it was really a smattering of folks.
They,
they did a good job of we're a committee of people across different disciplines.
We were thinking in advance about who,
I mean,
every campus regardless of size has those kind of.
I don't know how you define them,
but they're,
they're this kind of locus that has connections across different aspects of campus.

(12:42):
Because of either where they teach because of personality,
because of length of engagement,
because of all kinds of different reasons.
But that formation was,
was pretty organic because it was before any other unions were involved.
So it was completely,
you know,
grassroots at that point in terms of folks who were getting organized.
And then once we had some kind of larger support,

(13:05):
then we were really strategic about reaching out to other people and seeing who might have the time to,
to jump into this.
Because that was one thing,
you know,
I was,
as I said,
I was going in not being part of a campaign in the past.
And so I had no idea of what I was in for in terms of timing and,
and other aspects of that.
So the OC formed pretty organically in terms of how we started turning the tide amongst adjuncts.

(13:27):
I would love to say it's because of our overwhelming charisma and one on one conversations.
But the one on one conversations,
some of them were really problematic because if you think about this,
right,
think about who S E I U is hiring as organizers,
right?
Organizers usually like brand new off the street undergrads.
So you have 22 and 23 year olds going and talking to college professors to tell them about their working conditions and convince them to join the Union.

(13:52):
And it was,
it was hilarity.
It,
it just was a total break and like SEIU didn't have any awareness of this.
They grew to understand better,
right?
As we showed them over time.
But honestly,
you know,
the saying has been around for a long time because it's so true.
The boss is the best organizer.
And what happened was once words started spreading um during that fall quarter about the organizing campaign,

(14:16):
their campaign to stop organizing,
kicked in and clearly they hadn't either hired their consultants yet.
Or their consultants were not prepared because they sent out an email.
I think it was in November or December and the tone of it was
something to the effect o, you are all tiny Children wandering in the forest.

(14:39):
A union,
a union is a dangerous thing.
You know,
you have no idea what you're potentially in for.
We have your best interest at heart and,
the tone of it was so over the top
and was so just like top down hierarchical structure,
and folks read that email and they were like,

(15:00):
fuck you,
right?
Like where do I sign a card?
And I think,
I think we tripled card signage after that email came out within a couple of days and then people started having those conversations were willing to sit down and have them and learn more.
That's when,
that's when our campaign really started to get some,
traction.

(15:21):
So,
going back to the student thing,
you,
you said that once you got students on board,
that's when things really took off.
I,
I'd like to know more about that and just basically,
you know,
your efforts,
building solidarity with other groups on,
on campus.
You know,
tenured faculty staff,
it just,
it seems like all those elements are so important to building a strong campaign.

(15:45):
What was that like?
Yeah,
that part of it,
I,
you know,
was actually relatively easy.
The administration themselves and the the institution itself had already shot itself in the foot for going after a campaign that was more or less in line with all of the missions and values of the university itself.
Right?

(16:05):
Seattle U isn't just a Jesuit University.
They consider themselves a very progressive Jesuit University and students are looking specifically for that,
right?
They want that environment with small classrooms where with a social justice emphasis across all of the different curricula.
And so the students were primed.
In fact,
I was lamenting when I first started after my first year at Seattle U.
I'm like,

(16:25):
there's no activism on this campus for Social Justice University.
There's no tabling even there's barely student groups that are active and engaged.
There were a couple that became key
to the work that we ended up doing.
Um,
but it was,
it was dead in terms of that,
but you could tell students were wanting something to dig into,
wanted something to,
to,
to go for.

(16:46):
And if you think about it,
right.
2011,
12,
13.
It,
it just,
there's no like larger societal relevance,
I think to a lot of young people,
there are things going on,
but it wasn't finding its way on a campus.
So once our campaign began,
we got some coverage in the school paper right away.
The school paper was widely read there.
They ended up becoming

(17:08):
a regular kind of ally uh especially because Admin was unwilling to sit down for interviews with folks.
Admin at the time was Father,
Steve the president.
He seems like a piece of work just reading some of his quotes.
Yeah,
if you want to go and dig into some of the background and

(17:28):
how he's been part of the hierarchy within the church,
it's some fascinating stuff.
But,
but,
you know,
he was just kind of,
you know,
he's supposed to be this
friendly and,
and most just universities in the country at the time did not have people from the clergy as part of the highest level administration.
So this is pretty rare at Seattle U so it was about this relational campus environment.

(17:49):
But students were,
were upset.
There was something that happened.
I remember,
I think it was the year I started before about um certain types of health care that would or wouldn't be available in terms of student populations on campus within their clinics that really got people up in arms.
There's starting to be protests around various issues in terms of Seattle U's investments.

(18:10):
Seattle U is a university that doesn't have a significant endowment.
They rely heavily,

heavily heavily on tuition, especially tuition from masters level professional programs (18:15):
M B A, law school.
I mean,
that's bread and butter for them.
And,
and so there were also pushes from students because they knew they were shouldering the financial burden.
And then linking that with once we started giving them the financials.
I remember I,

(18:35):
I was in a class and I was, you know,
I,
I'm not using the classroom time to campaign,
but students were asking me about this.
They had heard more about it.
We were talking about labor history.
And so I,
I there I,
I told them that essentially it took about three of them in this class of 25 students to pay for me.
And it was a little less than three of them,
like 2.5 of you,

(18:55):
the tuition you pay if you break it down for this class pays my salary for this class.
And they were like where does all the other money go.
And I'm like,
that's a fantastic question.

And so once things like that started getting out,
the students really were ready to mobilize.
And,
um,
the other thing is we all had really good working relationships with our students.

(19:16):
Right.
They got to know us.
I was teaching a lot there.
I was a part timer.
I was a sabbatical Phil.
I was practically full time.
I had students who took five different classes with me while I was there and some of those students were the people that were on the banners that are on like the light posts around Seattle U folks who are like the,
you know,
the special scholars or D1 athletes,

(19:39):
we had some,
these D1 athletes like the leading scorer in the country in women's soccer.
Like all these folks were like jumping on and they're being very vocal and very public supportingthis campaign and,
and supporting their part time instructors and it made all the difference in the world.
Nice.
I wanna talk a little bit more about the opposition you mentioned,

(20:04):
for example,
that the admin whether or not they had their consultants and so forth.
You mentioned that email but overall as the campaign's progressing,
what kind of union busting tactics are happening and how are you all reacting to that?
And then you know what happened with the vote?
And then I guess we could get into the post votes after that.
So,

(20:24):
so the,
they hired a,
they hired a labor practice that specifically does union busting work.
In fact,
we found some of their,
some of the emails we got,
we found boilerplate language that matched with other anti-union campaigns at other campuses.
It was amazing and we,

(20:45):
we did all we could to blast that out because they were trying to get it.
So we lost control of the email list and,
and email servers.
So we couldn't send out messages to everybody.
They were sending regular emails,
they were starting to do a captive audience sessions where they'd bring us in as info sessions about unions.

(21:07):
And so we made sure that every single one of those we salted and just asked really direct questions about,
oh,
what about this?
Oh,
what about that?
And so those things ended up blowing up in their faces as well.
What ends up happening is we start getting cards and I think they realize that we're,
we're going to have enough cards to file an election because we started in September of 2013 by December.

(21:30):
The campaign had started pushing back against the union by January and February,
various national Jesuit groups asked the university to take a neutral stance and Seattle refused.
So we had like national Jesuit workers publications and magazines more or less issuing statements and publishing our editorials around neutrality.

(21:51):
And so by the time we get to February of 2014,
we have enough cards.
And so we go file for an election.
And instantly there's a lawsuit.
And a challenge at the National Labor Relations Board to our filing for a union under
the pretense of,
I think one was a religious argument that instructors are part of the religious mission of the university.

(22:16):
Thus aren't subjected to protections under the National Labor Relations Act.
There's some precedent that
they're trying to use to back that up.
And then there were a couple issues as well.
They also said that,
we didn't include everybody in the unit that we should have if I remember correctly.
Because
we didn't include the nursing program and there's one other one as well in the unit.

(22:39):
And we were kind of like,
yeah,
bring him on in the nurses,
you anyways.
And there's one other issue as well.
But I can't remember off the top of my head.
And so what ends up happening is we end up in a National Labor Relations Board hearing.
So I am brought up in what looks like a courtroom in front of a judge and I'm getting questioned by an attorney for this union busting law firm and he's essentially asking me about my class content to see whether or not I am teaching towards the religious mission of the university.

(23:11):
And bless our wonderful students.
A bunch of them showed up to these hearings and they were a rowdy bunch.
So he was asking me questions about class content.
At that time,
I was teaching a class called activism protest and the law looking at the history of radical resistance movements within the US.
And so he was asking me things about,
oh,
well,
you know,
do you,
do you teach about these things?

(23:33):
And I was talking about,
you know,
feminist movements,
I was talking about anarchist movements,
I was talking about direct action movements.
And he's like,
well,
you know,
how do you you know,
what are these,
these things are you talking about in terms of you keep saying structures of power,
what do you mean by that?
Like,
well,
you know,
when we're talking about these,
these movements in terms of empowering women within these various spaces,

(23:53):
you know,
we talk about the,
the structural,
you know,
legacy of,
of patriarchy and the ways in which it finds its way.
Well,
how do you define that?
So I give some definition and he's like,
well,
you know,
how do your students respond to this?
Right?
And I'm,
oh,
I'm loving the hell.
And,
and you know,
how do you,
how do your students,
you know,
respond when they learn about this and I,
I can't,
I said something flip about.

(24:14):
I don't need to teach any of the women in my class about any of these things.
They know it.
People start cheering and clap.
Right?
Like the whole thing was ridiculous.
It was a kangaroo court.
The judge tried to get control at the beginning and then she was just cracking up.
She started lying there.
A transcript of this hearing.
I imagine there has to be somewhere in the National Labor relations archives.

(24:35):
But
the point of what they were asking was to determine whether there was whether there was religious content or whether like,
specifically whether you,
your instruction was part of fulfilling the religious mission of the college.
That's how they were trying to determine whether you're eligible to unionize.

(24:56):
Yeah.
Well,
so there's,
there,
there are various precedents around labor law about who can form unions. 600 00:25:05,069 --> 00:25:05,410 Um,
and who is potentially,
um,
you know,
uh who,
who has the right to kind of push back.
And a lot of these are based on kind of weird religious liberty laws um about certain institutions if they're private.

(25:17):
Um And it's against uh the underlying uh mission or,
or religious underpinnings of the thing of the university.
If you are someone working within a religious institution,
um towards those ends,
you aren't subjected to the same types of,
um,
kind of labor protections.
There's,
there's,
there's a bunch of different parts of this and I wasn't deep into the uh the legal precedent at the time.

(25:38):
Um But the idea was they were trying to uh uh essentially get at what is the content and show that the content in some way is like backing up the mission of what the university is doing.
And thus we're under these certain protocols and um if the university doesn't want to recognize our union,
they don't have to.
Um so there's,
there's a few different ways this happened.
But what ends up happening is,

(25:59):
you know,
we have these,
these legal cases um in April of that year,
N L R B comes out with their ruling.
Um And we win on all counts,
they throw out all of the complaints.
Um And so we're allowed to proceed with our election.
Um So we get to the end of 2000 14.
So June of 2014,
the end of the school year,

(26:19):
um the election takes place and uh a week after the election takes place,
um S C A U files a lawsuit to seal the ballots uh and appeals our right to unionize.
Um So this instead is going around is,
is back with the National Labor Relations Board.
You said you said S C I U,

(26:40):
did you mean the administration?
Sorry,
Seattle.
Seattle U files suit to seal the ballots and appeal once again our right to unionize.
Um And they know it's gonna take a while and and the summer's coming.
So they're hoping for a loss of momentum and,
and everything else that comes with that and,
and they get some of that.
Um because there's not really,

(27:01):
I mean,
there's,
there's consistent conversations about,
but there's no more organizing to do votes already been had.
And we're getting all these questions,
like,
what's happening?
Did we win the union?
Like,
like we're not actually allowed to open the,
the ballots.
So we're in the state of limbo essentially from July of 2014 until um September of 2016.

(27:27):
What you didn't even know the outcome two years over two years.
And by then I realize that,
I mean,
well,
of course,
you know,
adjuncts are so,
you know,
they come and they go,
you know.
Yeah.
So I think there were one or two members of the organising committee left by the time were on campus,

(27:49):
by the time the ballots were actually open,
I'm sure they were counting on that.
Absolutely.
Um And the delay was overwhelmingly effective.
But in between that,
there were other things that that happened.
Um There was National Adjunct Walkout Day,
um which ended up,
we were the largest participant in this National Day of action.

(28:09):
Um We had students who blocked intersections in Capitol Hill around Seattle University and were arrested as well as faculty members.
Um We had national press coverage.
Uh You can still go back and find interviews on like N Pr and uh random outlets.
Uh and we had huge turnout,
the students walked out in mass,

(28:29):
we had hundreds and hundreds of students who were out um supporting us.
Uh And,
and it was huge because at any point,
the university could,
could very simply say,
ok,
we'll drop the appeal.
You can open the ballots,
allow a democratic process to take place.
Um And,
and they refused.
And so,
um C L U uh we had that the walkout,

(28:50):
another appeal was filed in March of 2015.
It wasn't until August when the N L R B ruled the ballots could be counted and they were counted in September and we won.
Um And then they refused to bargain with us.
Um They moved it out of the National Labor Relations Court into federal courts um on the grounds of religious freedom and took it to Federal Circuit Court where uh where they told us very specifically,

(29:19):
we're going to pursue this all the way to the Supreme Court.
Um And by then we're getting to October 2016.
Uh We all know what happens in November of 2016.
The N L R B becomes a very different space um with the new presidential administration.
Um And so by the time this starts working its way through the courts,
it's getting its way to um appeal appellate level courts just below the Supreme Court.

(29:41):
And S C I U drops the legal battle in January of 2018 because they see the writing on the wall that could establish detrimental precedent um based upon the way the courts were trending and,
and just the pure cost and time of this.
So,
um I wanna talk more about that outcome.
Um And,
and your,
your thoughts on that decision.

(30:04):
But uh before that,
you know,
you said,
so you said you,
your contract was not renewed,
kind of in that in that was like in that limbo time.
Can you tell us about that?
Do you consider that to be retaliation?
And what was the student response?
So,
for anybody out there who's,
you know,
been a part-time instructor at college,

(30:25):
your employment comes and goes.
Um And sometimes it's based upon enrollment,
sometimes it's based upon,
um,
you know,
somebody being on leave.
Um I was a sabbatical fill for some of the time that I was there.
Uh It's about new personnel coming in and out of the apartment.
There's lots of things.
Um I actually,
I remember really distinctly.

(30:45):
So the other thing to add into this is in 2014 in June.
Um uh we had uh twins and they were in the Nicki for two months in the hospital across the street from Seattle U So I was showing for the morning,
hanging out with the kids,
going and teaching,
coming back,
hanging out with the kids,
going home and doing that along all of this and this was,

(31:08):
uh,
I was at about that time,
I think it was that I found out that I wasn't going to be renewed.
So they told me in fall of the academic year that I was going to finish out that I wasn't going to have a job the next year and just said,
you know,
just no spot for it.
Um,
just not gonna happen,
you know,
you're not being renewed and,
and so I was like,

(31:29):
all right,
you know,
I,
I,
of course,
I'm thinking about my heavy involvement and,
and being kind of one of the loudest voices in the campaign.
Um But,
you know,
I'm an at will contracted worker.
Uh There is,
you know,
um there is a,
a tough line to draw between that.
Um And also i it was interesting because I think the university understood this when they heard that that that wasn't being renewed.

(31:51):
Um I remember having a,
a one on one meeting.
I thought it was a one on one meeting with one of the associate deans or something and they brought in someone else as like an outside observer,
like another dean just to sit in the room and they were very specifically being like,
we want to let,
you know,
you are not being let go because,
you know,
they were trying to get all this stuff on the record,
um which was really,

(32:12):
really interesting.
Um uh and,
and,
and pretty fascinating,
but word got out,
um,
among students that I wasn't going to be because as they were looking to register for classes,
they usually have,
like,
they could look,
uh,
pretty far out in advance for class stuff and students were asking me about classes and teach next year and I told them,
you know,
I'm not gonna be here and students put those things together right,

(32:32):
instantly.
And we were like,
oh,
you're clearly,
you're being fired.
I'm like,
I,
you know,
I don't know,
I'm,
I'm an at will employee.
These are things that happen.
Um And this,
the petition was started that ended up having,
it's,
I think it's still up online somewhere,
hundreds um of signatures from students from parents,
from others.
Um There were protests on campus.

(32:52):
It,
it got to a whole other level.
And then on top of that,
at the end of the year,
I was told by a student who was on a committee that was assigning teaching awards that I was in line to be instructor,
uh you know,
in arts and sciences to win some award and that the committee had a very heated uh discussion.
I,
I did,
I ended up in uh what she called it.

(33:13):
She was like,
you got it and she gave me the air code second place.
Yeah.
So all that was going on too.
But uh at that point,
I mean,
the writing was on the wall.
It,
it wasn't going to be a uh pleasant work environment.
Um And I was looking for something that was more permanent.
Um And,
and,
you know,
it was,

(33:33):
it was a lot,
I'm sure it was tough for like my colleagues in the department as well.
Um You know,
they,
they were,
they were overwhelmingly supportive but,
you know,
they,
it's a department that functions based on what their needs are and what's going on and it was drawing a lot of attention that I'm sure was uncomfortable and a pain.
Um So,
yeah,
it was,
it was,
it ended the way it did.

(33:53):
I was able though,
uh to uh finish off the year and uh get that time um with kids and get a little bit of time off because I,
I worked there for so long that I had actually qualified supposedly uh for turning leave,
but it hadn't really been given to part timers before.
But I mean,
based upon all the stats,
I went in hard for it and I was like,

(34:14):
hey,
right,
like,
and they already knew I was on my way out.
So I think that was their final,
like,
like throw a bone,
the severance package was apply.
I was overwhelmingly lucky compared to a lot of my colleagues in terms of what their conditions were like as part timers.
But during the campaign,
guess what happens,

(34:34):
right?
They start raising pay.
Um They start removing some of those barriers about benefits getting slashed if you got,
they they opened up new spaces for offices that,
you know,
all of a sudden were available now randomly.
Um a bunch of those things were being met,
right?
To try to kill momentum in that,
in that movement.
And pay has more than doubled since,

(34:56):
um,
since I was there,
from what I've heard from folks who are
teaching there now.
So I,
I think that the campaign,
you know,
had those tangential successes that many organizing campaigns do,
even if they're ultimately not successful.
And the funny thing is ours was successful.
They just refused to,
to bargain with us.
Yeah.
So I think now is a good time to sort of shift into the big picture because we got a lot of the great details on the campaign.

(35:19):
And we wanted to ask you kind of zooming out what are
some of the key lessons from this struggle that apply to adjunct organizing?
Yeah.
Well,
I am now,
you know,
teaching as
a full timer at a unionized workplace,
adjuncts and full time folks are unionized where I work now.

(35:42):
And so I see what some of those benefits look like,
and get a sense then of,
how if these campaigns are going to be waged in the future.
You know,
what needs to be at the forefront?
One is just environmental,
right?
One is just like what's in the air and what's in the water at the time when these campaigns take place.
And right now as we're seeing this surge of organizing across the country,

(36:03):
across all different types of sectors,
especially in the service space,
I think there's renewed interest and renewed attention being paid to what these campaigns look like.
So the first thing is it's some of it's just about timing.
Second,
you know,
if you're starting these campaigns at private institutions,
you're going to be better off understanding what are the specific barriers of,

(36:30):
of organizing professionals,
especially those who don't think of themselves as workers in that same way.
And I,
I think what you have to pursue is understanding and showing them how sister institutions can take better care when they have
a union contract and show them that this isn't and doesn't have to be the expectation that they're faced with that.

(36:52):
There are other ways that people are able to have some say and control over the workplace.
And the other is,
really leaning heavily on having part-time participation in shared governance.
That is stipend and that is attached to all of
the main functions of the institution.
Because if you aren't in those kind of backroom conversations,

(37:15):
you aren't going to have the understanding of those pressure points and where power lies with institution and who needs to be convinced within those spaces.
As well as getting a better sense of what,

the fight and the pushback is going to look like.
Um,
coming from the other side,

the other,
the one big thing is get that time to understand the finances of the institution itself.

(37:38):
Right.
Once we were able to understand,
you know,
the finances of Seattle University,
we had a lot more information to provide to students and to other allies,

to find what those pressure points are.
And if you're

going in without that,
that,
that can be really tough.

Because I was also later part of a campaign at the University of Washington,

to,

(37:59):
to organize those folks and,
and they were ill prepared for that campaign for many of us,
the same reasons.
Um,
you kind of touched on this but just,
you know,
one of the things that's,
that was really just so interesting to me when I was kind of doing a little reading to learn more about the campaign was just the nature of their arguments based on being a religious institution,

(38:25):
just the whole religious freedom thing and separation of church and state.
And just this argument which I didn't realize had all of this legal precedent that,
uh,
if you're a religious university,
you're somehow not subject to labor law,
even though they have other union.
I mean,
there are other unionized workers at Seattle U,

(38:45):
right.
Yeah.
So,
I don't know.
I'm just curious to
dig into that a little bit more,
you know,
what,
what,
what are the implications of this and,
and also how you use it in your campaign because you mentioned that you tried to foreground like the hypocrisy of OK,
this is like a Jesuit,
you know,
social justice college and kind of like pointing out the

(39:10):
hypocrisy of,
you know,
the,
these people like,
what's the president's name?

Yes.
So that there's a few things you bring up that are really key to what we're doing in our campaign.
One was that there was plenty of folks who were unionized workers on campus.
And in fact,
one of my favorite things that happened during this campaign was one of the students who I was really close with,

(39:35):
worked in food services on campus and they were able to launch and organize campaign and gained union representation and,
or,
and were able to successfully hold the union election and were recognized by the university all within,
I think eight months.
And they organized through Unite HERE.

(39:57):
There's other folks on campus who were organizing,
Unite as well,
but the difference and the way that that argument is split is whether or not the folks who are organized are part of the religious mission of the institution.
So the folks in the food service didn't count but those,
those students became huge like in terms of union solidarity partners with us during our campaign.

(40:21):
But the,
that little kind of bit so us labor law at its origination,
You know,
really hasn't changed a ton,
except for erosions of protections and
the ways in which some groups were left out was one was the religious argument you're talking about before.
But the other was,

(40:42):
you know,
things like agricultural workers.
There weren't the same regulations around child labor,
there weren't the same regulations around our,
and you know,
those have been built in over time.
And many of those regulations still don't exist.
It's been,
you know,
pressure campaigns and amazing movements by folks who put everything on the line in order to gain that recognition initially.

(41:02):
But it was really pointing out hypocrisy was super easy and,
and I think that the students innately got it like that and as word got out to the larger community,
they were also you know,
some of the folks who were contentious,
you know,
you comment sections and in newspaper articles,

(41:23):
things like that.
We're like,
well,
you know,
why don't you just talk with,
with these religious,
right?
Like,
you know,
Father Steve and the Jesuits there,
they,
they all have this,
you know,
history of maybe,
maybe I just need to have a conversation.
And so it was,
fun to kind of reflect on that and also share that like,
you know,
these folks are unwilling to engage with us,
they're unwilling to actually have conversations other than the classic captive audience meetings.

(41:47):
And that they saw the mission of the university more clearly hewn towards religious liberty rather than the social justice that's on every banner that's on every mission statement that's listed in every classroom.
Yeah.
In kind of another wrapping up mold.

(42:10):
I wanted to ask about the,
when a struggle like this ends up in the courts as much as this one did.
And then when the moment came down for like the climate has shifted Trump's in office,
Trump's ability in the executive branch to,
you know,
select members of the N L R B and so forth and Supreme Court changes.

(42:32):
What did you like?
What do you think about that decision to drop the,
you know,
the legal fight and overall,
just more broadly the strategy of being cautious when it's in a legal sphere because of the issue of precedent setting decisions.
Yeah.
It,
it's,
it's,
it's a great question.
The funny thing is I never even knew that it got dropped because I was gone.

(42:56):
I was two years gone.
Uh and I ran into a former colleague months afterwards.
I was like,
what's going on with that?
Right.
Have you heard anything?
Oh,
yeah.
Yeah.
So SEIU dropped,
dropped the whole thing because they just couldn't afford it anymore.
And they're worried about the person who is gonna get set in terms of larger kind of philosophical questions about that.

(43:19):
So much of what constitutes labor law is totally unnecessary if you gain recognition from the employers themselves,
right,
that you can circumvent all of that legal wrangling by simply having a contractual agreement that is made on,
you know,
those,
those other terms.
So the,
the legal space is,

(43:40):
is not one about truth finding,
right?
It,
it's a,
it's one about how to create spaces of delay to enable forgetting, to enable amnesia around what brought this into being to begin with,
right?
And,
and that I think is a really effective part of our legal tradition and system to push back against social movements throughout,

(44:08):
right?
The,
legal history of the country.
It's not a place where the way that,
that the current labor laws are set up is that they are kind of end of the line protections rather than spaces to create empowerment and to move forward,
right?

(44:28):
They're essentially a lowest common denominator rather than a highest level.
I ideal and,
and I learned that,
you know,
as part of this campaign,
it was something that was totally outside of my purview other than,
you know,
being a teenager and looking up California State legal codes because my employer was stiffing me on overtime.
But to think about it in that larger context of the federal courts,

(44:53):
um,
it got scary because I,
I think S E I U made the right decision to be frank.
Um,
because I think if that had continued on,
it would have established a really problematic precedent.

I don't,
I don't think they gave up lightly.

I,
I think they,
they made a savvy decision ultimately.

(45:15):
Do you think that it would have been possible to put enough pressure on the university to cave?
And,
and what I mean,
is creating enough consequences for them through a movement that was,
you know,
really kind of creating a lot of negative publicity for them and stuff like that to make them decide that it wasn't worth pursuing or do you feel because to me that seems like,

(45:40):
oh,
well,
that's the kind of the potential way forward,
is to build a really,
like,
you know,
trying to,
to build,
build a broader grassroots movement that can do that.
But of course,
it's easy to say that,
you know,
it's easy for me to sit here and say that.
But do you think that they would have yielded or you just think they were so entrenched that nothing was gonna make them change their minds?

(46:03):
I think it,
I think enough was seemingly at stake from their point of view,
um,
that they were entrenched with this.
I mean,
they,
they spent,
you know,
well over seven figures in order to fight this um based upon the information that we,
we were able to find.
And,
and that was directly of students tuition,
right?
And,

(46:23):
and so that point was,
was clear,
I,
I think it goes back to my first point.
I think it goes back to the political environment.
It wasn't in the air,
right?
This movement of United campaigns.
This was before recent decisions that that overturned the protections of folks to pay union dues if they were experiencing the benefits of union representation,

(46:45):
right?
We've had Supreme Court precedents since where people could opt out right of paying union dudes even though they're part of the union workforce.
And ironically,
you know,
I think that decision really re infused the labor movement because it forced them to go back to grassroots organizing,
which they had not been good at for a while and forced them to go back in those spaces.
I think right now,

(47:05):
if a similar movement happened at Seattle U I,
I think it would have a good potential to be successful.
There's different administrative leadership now that are outside of the clergy.
There is the political climate we currently see ourselves in,
in terms of massive labor movements that we haven't seen in probably 3 to 4 decades at this level.
And,

(47:27):
and I think that the publicity would get more traction than it did when we were mobilizing,
there were moments when we had a lot of public support,
but,
you know,
the news cycle is quick,
things fall in and out.
And we were unable to sustain it when there's like a two year gap in the story.
It's not great like you have your lead in your story in your interview and then it's like we'll follow up in 2.5 years when there's a resolution on this,

(47:50):
right?
So your question is a great one because it gets once again to that need of a climate that will,
that will create the space for it to reverberate enough to,
to make that change.
Well,
is there anything else that you,
that you wanna share?
That you feel like we didn't get to?

(48:11):
No,
I,
I mean,
I think the,
the thing that I would reaffirm is that looking back at my time at Seattle U
it still was one of my favorite places to teach.
The students were fantastic and
it really reinforced my joy of being a classroom instructor,

(48:32):
seeing students have our backs with,
you know,
the very little free time that they have as human beings through this.
It made me believe in what can be created in the campus community and the need to build that wherever I go.
Not just in terms of organizing students,
but in terms of understanding that what they are undertaking in grad and undergraduate education is something that requires us to understand our role in it as well.

(49:01):
And what I mean by that is what we do doesn't make any sense unless the students are forming some meaningful relationship with their learning,
with the people who are doing that learning and that we all feel like we're heading in a similar direction and especially during COVID and,
and even before that,

(49:21):
you could feel the academy moving towards a service provider type of model,
right?
Students as customers.
Um we as the individuals who are serving their needs because of the fact that tuition is so out of control for these poor poor students.
And this redirected that in my mind and showed the possibility of what building community and organizing can do of,

(49:43):
of forging a meaningful educational relationship.
So that's,
that's kind of what I took away,
right?
There's,
there's all the shitty things that happen,
but overwhelmingly,
you know,
as someone who's lucky enough to,
to have a full time position now,
I,
I take a lot of positives from,
from what that is and what's possible to build.

(50:04):
Awesome.
I think that about hits all of our questions.
Yeah,
it was great.
Yeah,
I,
I was trying to,
you know,
figure out a timeline for all this stuff because I,
I have the memory of a mosquito and so trying to loop this all back together.
It was really helpful quite a while ago at this point.
It's hard,
it's hard to remember those details.
Yeah.

(50:24):
Thank you so much.
This was really,
really interesting and honestly just like,
kind of infuriating actually,
you know,
as I was doing the reading and then just listening to you,
I was just like,
feeling pissed,
you know,
because you guys did a lot of
really great organizing and you succeeded and they still kind of found a way to stick it to you,

(50:49):
you know.
So it's,
it's really,
yeah.
Yeah.
I mean,
in this,
like,
the other thing I was thinking since this is a little bit more historical and a little bit more of like,
you know,
covering what happened,
does it feel like,
does it just feel like it's been erased or does it feel like you mentioned the gains and the wins?

(51:10):
Which was cool.
I was glad that you brought that up but like,
just having experienced something,
does it feel just like,
oh,
dang,
like,
you know,
all that work has been erased or does it sort of seem like it carries on?
I,
I mean,
I think it's a blip.
I think a lot of us,
the reset button with COVID was huge.
Um And the ways that institutional knowledge builds amongst students,

(51:32):
especially within student organizations that are passed down,
I think that there's a serious crack across the entire country of,
of student led groups and organizations that just don't have the institutional passing on.
That was so key to these things,
having continuous momentum,
year in and year out.
And for those of us who teach at two year colleges as well,
it is even more difficult because we have students for such a short period of time.

(51:56):
And so it,
it really feels like it feels like history,
David,
right?
It feels like a crack and a blip of what was there before.
I think there's clearly positive outcomes that come.
But yeah,
I,
I think it just exists in its own little hermetically sealed portion of time at,
at S U.
But what it did garner,
I,
I think what did come from it in the aftermath was more sustained student engagement and activism on that campus because I saw there were massive sit in movement when other departments had super problematic issues around curriculum.

(52:29):
There were all types of things and I can draw a through line to that organizing campaign that activated students and created this kind of generational activism.
Yeah,
I don't believe that any of these things are completely isolated and,
and have no effect.
So and,
and,
and,
and,
and I'm sure there's there must be some adjuncts who are still there,

(52:49):
right?
Part of the campaign,
I've talked to a couple and,
and conditions have have dramatically,
I think improved and I think new administration took that to heart a bit more.
So there are long term impacts.
But in terms of people thinking back to this campaign,
the memory.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So,
well,
in 2014 fall you get the like first uprisings in the Black Lives Matter Wave.

(53:16):
And so,
you know,
it just makes me wonder how much the students who have been in,
you know,
involved in this campaign and got organized and how much that leads them into other stuff just as you're saying.
So,
I mean,
I can,
I can name several students from that time period who ended up moving into the organized labor movement and continue to work in that in that today.

(53:41):
So it was a socializing experience for them.
It was,
it was,
it was a huge learn.
It was an educational opportunity to understand the,
the promise of power,
even with the,
you know,
ultimate success,
but never fully acknowledged or followed through success that this campaign represented.
Thank you so much,
Larry.
Hopefully we'll,

(54:01):
we'll,
we'll see you soon.
Yeah.
Have a great weekend.
Ok.
Bye bye.
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(54:24):
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