059 - Navigating Identity: Gabi Koyenov's Path from Theology to Therapy - Permission to Flow

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I like working with people, butyoung adult men because I feel like it's,
It's a very tumultuous
time for any young adult, you know,and you're trying to figure out your life.
And I think for men especially,we need guidance.
We need people that are, you know, every
every Luke Skywalker has the Obi-Wan and,

(00:20):
you know, and Harry has stumbled overand I never
we could go on and on,but it's it's a classic story.
And I feel like I find a lot of meaningand being able to help
somebody navigate a very challengingto like, challenging point in life.
Hello and welcometo this episode of Permission to Flow.
I'm your host, Jessica Huang,and in this episode,

(00:42):
I have the pleasure of talking with GabiQuijano.
Gabi is the host of the GabiKind of podcast
and the owner of the Men's Therapy studio.
I have the pleasureof being on Gabi podcast,
so definitely head over thereand check out that episode as well.
But in this episode, Gabishares his fascinating journey

(01:02):
from aspiring to be a rabbito becoming a therapist.
He reflects on the transformformative experience of studying theology,
and the difficult decision
to leave his studiesto pursue a master's degree in therapy.
Gabi story is an important reminderof following our intuition
and being open to the unexpected twistsand turns of life.

(01:25):
As Gabi says in the episode,what feels like a painful ego
death is actually God doing you a solid
and moving youin the direction of your purpose.
Gabi shares valuable insightson the benefits of therapy and coaching,
and the challenges and strategiesof starting a private practice.
We also talk about cultural expectations

(01:47):
and stigmasurrounding men seeking therapy.
So if you're looking to makea big career switch
or starting your own therapy practice,then you don't want to miss this episode.
And one quick announcementbefore we get started.
If you are looking to make a career changeand want to get the support
that you need in order to move yourselfin the direction of what is that
you really, deep down insideknow is meant for you and need help

(02:11):
in terms of pursuing that,not getting in your own way
and moving forward into your passionor purpose.
Then come work with me.
Go to my website Jessica Huangcoaching.com and book a free sales
session with me to get started.
And now, without further ado, hereis my conversation with Gabi.
Welcometo this episode of Permission to Flow.

(02:35):
So today I have on the podcast Gabi
Cohen and Gabi,I'm so excited to have you on here.
So I actually met Gabiat a podcasting meetup
and then I went on his podcastslash YouTube and now he's on mine.
So welcome to the show, Gabi.
Yeah, thank you so much, Jessica.
It was so fun having you on my podcast,and I'm so happy

(02:56):
we're doing this conversationand you are such a genuine,
like glowing personand it's very fun to talk to you.
So I'm happy we're doing this.
Thank you so much.
It's such an honor being on your podcastand now having you on my podcast.
And, you know, I feel like we could talkfor hours and hours on end, so
I am very excited about this conversationfor everyone else to listen to it.

(03:18):
So thank you so much againfor coming on the show.
Of course. Thank you for having me.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right.
So I always start every episodewith the word purpose.
So I would love to hear your take onwhat does purpose mean to you.
It's such a good question.Such a great question.
You know, I don't know, as soon asyou asked me that question, I was thinking

(03:40):
about this recent conversationI was having with my sister in law
where we were debating on if,
the afterlife is something that createsmeaning or takes away meaning from life.
So, like when you say purpose,I think about like,
is there some type of greater grand schemeto the universe where there's something
we should be doing with our livesor some type of greater calling? And,

(04:03):
I don't know. Yeah, but that's not that.
That could be a very longphilosophical conversation.
We could do a whole episode on on itself,but like, purpose.
Yeah.
I think purpose means, like,what's your intention?
Like, that's another way of understandingpurpose.
Like what's your whatwhat are your intentions?
What are your goals in life?
How do you direct yourself?
And then another way is like, doesGod or the universe
have some type of greater plan for you,some type of destiny or mission?

(04:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
I, I that's so interesting.
I mean, I feel like we are going to end up
getting into it because I knowyour background actually was in theology.
And so I feel like we could get very
philosophical up in here,which I'm not against at all.
But that's such an interesting wayto look at it.
It's like, well, do you even believe thatthere is something greater?
And how does that weigh in tohow you see purpose?

(04:49):
So I'm curious, like, what has your take,
in terms of finding your own purposelooked like for you?
Yeah. That's such a good question.
Finding my own purpose.
I think for me, I,I don't know, even even as a teen.
Okay, so I grew up in, for thosethat don't know what brand is, it's,
a Jewish person from Pakistan or CentralAsia.

(05:11):
Really?
So basically, there is a very strongconnection, I think, to
some type of higher powerthat is just kind of like
very typical amongst our current culture.
Like you just feel a certain sense oflike, you know, there's a destiny for me.
Everything happens for a reason.Like God has his plans.
Like that'sjust very pervasive in the culture.

(05:33):
So I feel like when you ask me, like,
how is it like for menavigating my own culture?
I think I kind of grew upwith that idea of like,
you know, everything happens for a reason.
Like,and sometimes it's a little bit unhealthy.
Like, you try to read into certain thingsand be like,
oh, it's got trying to show me somethingor something like that, but,
but yeah, I feel like I always had this,
like in touch with my inner consciousnessthat made me feel like,

(05:55):
oh, I feel like I like a certain intuitionthat should go in certain directions.
And that's been very helpful.
And I think that that'svery like cultural for me.
But I think navigating
since, since I was young,
I was just kind of like plungedinto American culture, like I didn't
I didn't go to boarding schoolfor high school.
And it was kind of like navigatingso many different types of people
with different beliefs and upbringingsand everything like that. And,

(06:20):
so navigating that, it's been this fun
blend of chaos and like,just figuring it out, you know?
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I'm so curious.
So you were born in Pakistanand then came here
as a child or what waswhat was that kind of set up for you?
Yeah. So my parents were.

(06:40):
Two daughters,my sisters who I love so much.
And I'm surethey're going to listen to this, so.
Hey, I love you guys.
They have my two sisters.Then they came here.
And to America, to New York and had me andmy brother, and they're like early 40s.
So yeah, we were there's like a my meand my older sister are 19 years apart,
which is pretty cool. Yeah.

(07:01):
But my parents are very old school,so I kind of I kind of grew up in like
little Uzbekistan,I guess you could say, you know.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
No, I, I think that's so interestingbecause it's like, so I similarly, like,
my parents came over here and had me hereand also like older.
So my parents were in like their late 30s.

(07:22):
So that's so interesting.
We have we have all that in common,but totally different cultures.
But you know,we get along similar totally, totally.
And I think it's why like we have sucha natural ability to like, talk
about these topics of being like childrenof immigrants and everything,
which is what we discussedon your podcast.
And now we can, like,bring it back into here.

(07:43):
But yeah, it's it's interesting howthat kind of, the influence of, like you
said, your parents are more traditionalor like kind of old school.
So how do you feel like thatkind of informed you in terms of, like,
finding your way and deciding,like what you wanted to study or like what
you wanted to do with your life.

(08:03):
You have great questions.
I feel like, yeah.
How that informed me.
You know, I think, like, with my parents,they were both very highly educated.
Uzbekistan is,part of the former Soviet Union.
So they were,
I think, like the USSR was fallingas they were growing up.
Or maybe it was their, their parents.

(08:24):
And basically.
Yeah.
So basically, my dad is amechanical engineer and my mom's a nurse.
So and my grandmother was a doctorand my other grandfather
was an electrical engineer.
And from my other set there were one wasa teacher and the other was a professor.
So the very like kind of like educated,

(08:44):
a lot of pressure to, like, go into this.
It wasn't, I want to say pressure.
And in fact, it was just kind oflike the norm, like it was expected
that I would either become like a doctoror something or something medical,
because that's very muchmy family or engineering.
Like, I was very good at math growing up.
And then that totallytanked in high school.
But, yeah.

(09:05):
Sorry.
So the question was,
how did how did my parents upbringingand for me, for my career.
Yeah. So like in terms oflike what you decided to do.
So I know you made a change, but like,so just to back up because I already know
this about you is that youoriginally decided to go into theology.
Yeah.
So it was where did that come from?
Like how it wasthat influenced by your family?

(09:27):
But also I'm curious
because you just said
like that fell off, like becominga doctor was kind of the plan,
I guess, that you thought was goingto come to you because of your family.
Yeah, but that fell off,so let's start there, actually. How?
Like what happened?
That doctor just kind of go off.
So I'm sorry.
That's a greatit's it's a good question and it's great.
I was like up until eighth grade,I graduated valedictorian

(09:49):
from my eighth grade class,so I was doing really well. Yeah.
And it wasn't it was
like a, it was a blind private school,and it wasn't like a big school.
So it's not like, as impressiveas it sounds, but it was pretty cool.
But when I went to high school,I went to this
private Ashkenazi high school,which, Ashkenazi Jews are very different
from Sephardic Jews.
But that's that's a whole different story
I have on my YouTube channel.Like describing different cultures

(10:11):
if somebody wants to learnmore about that. But,
I went to this Ashkenazi high schooland I that's more extremely different from
from starting my background.So it was very different.
And then I don't know why in high schoolI didn't I didn't do well.
I had like a bigmaybe like a crisis of sorts where I,
you know, I just kind of realized that the

(10:32):
it's funny, it's almost like a
I kind of realized, you know,my parents don't actually know everything.
People that seem to be good peoplearen't actually necessarily good people.
Teachers don't actually know it all.
And kind of like this realizationthat the world is,
different than how I grew up,you know, just recognizing
that, like, people are more human.
Like, I used to thinkI think as a kid growing up.

(10:54):
And I think most people think like this,
that adultsjust know something that we don't,
you know,like somehow when you become an adult,
you get some type of revelationthat never happens.
It just it never does.
And I think sometimes you realizethat as a teenager, maybe sometimes not.
But I had a sort of crisis.
And then I didn't really do toowell in high school.
And I realized thenand then I connected with my.

(11:15):
So this is likethe first two years of high school.
And then I connected with my, schoolcounselor, who basically what happened
was I developed this massive crushon this girl and massive, massive crush.
Huge crush.
And I went to my school counselorto, like, I guess, talk to him about it.
And from that, actually,we started working together and also
with my best friendwho from in high school.

(11:38):
But all right, this is going off
in a little bit of a tangent,but it's worth calling out.
Yara was two years older than mebecause he came from Israel, to America.
So he was put back a gradeand I skipped a grade.
I just started school early,
so he was two years older than me,and he was like six one, like,
you know, athletic, extremely smart,probably like the smart like this.
Like, very street smart.

(12:00):
Like he had friends
that were many years older than himand he just always knew his way around.
He was so brilliant.
And he would just shuffle a deck of cardsand people would just watch him
because of how charismatic he was.
He was just thislike badass, awesome leader.
So we connected.
And earlier in high school,he became my best friend and he was like,
you have to speak with with Yoni.

(12:21):
You know, we kind of thought we were cool.
We kind of thoughtwe were a little bit from the streets.
So we as a little like, yeah, you have toconnect with this brother Yoni, you know?
So we,we did like I did, and he was awesome.
Yoni. He was my school counselor.
And he really kind of influenced my lifeand made me realize I want to do therapy
because of how big of an influencehe had on me.
So I always kind of knewI wanted to become a therapist

(12:41):
just because of that influence.
And my first job out of high school,
out of college, I was, a school counselor,which was awesome.
I love that job so much.It was the best job ever.
But what happened was, from leavinghigh school to going into theology,
I was agnostic in high school.
Like, I'm basically completely agnostic.
My friends were actually very traditional.
They weren't theological like that.
They just kind of,
you know, did the laws and they,you know, they practiced Judaism.

(13:04):
We had our Saturday night meal or Fridaynight meals and our and our Shabbat meals,
which was, you know, like Jewishtradition, basic
not not really too theological.
Like I ask my fatherwhy he believes in Judaism.
Like, why is he religious and Jewish?
And his answer was just, you know,what do you mean? God?
Like, I just I believe in God.
So, like, not really such a thought out.

(13:24):
Just this is who he is, you know?
So what happenedwas I was agnostic in high school,
and I did believein some type of force in the universe,
like some type of god, but not necessarilythat it's Jewish or anything like that.
And then
my first year out of high school,
I went to a religious schooljust because that's
what a lot of my friends were doing.

(13:45):
So I went to a religious school
and I was doing this acceleratedundergrad program called Excelsior.
I don't know if it still exists,but it's basically one of those things
that you can get your degree in a yearby just taking a bunch of clep courses
and skipping ahead.
So I was doing that while I wasin this theological school
to try and figure out my faith.
And at that point, I justkind of came to the realization that I do

(14:08):
believe through various like searching,and I decided to like, lean into it.
Yeah.
Interesting that.
So that's interesting.
Well, first off,I love what you said there
about your parentsnot necessarily knowing the best
and like not being like the,the people that that know better than you.
I think that to meyou have that realization very early.

(14:31):
I don't know like because I feel like
I, it took me a lot longerto come to that realization.
So I and I think it's actually to yourbenefit in a way where you were like able.
I mean, I'msure it was tough to go through
because I always think it's a little hard,like a little bit of an earth
shattering moment when you realize like,oh, my parents aren't perfect.
My like, my world isn't perfect.

(14:52):
Like I thoughteveryone was supposed to like,
you know, you had them on this pedestalas you talked about.
But yeah, because I feel likeI came to that in my 20s
and it kind of like shattered my world.
And so I can understand how,
because of that, it made you go like,wait, what am I doing?
Like people around me don't like I'mnot going to just take their instructions.
I guess that's kind of what I'm hearing.

(15:14):
Correct me if I'm wrong. No, 100%.
I mean, me and I are. We're like rebels.
Y'all are more than me.He was. He took me under his wing.
And I'm so grateful for himthat he did that.
But yeah, we were we were rebels.
And I feel like I tryto carry that to this day.
But I'm curious, what is your story?
But in your 20s,was that a shattering woman for you?
You know, I don't know if I can, like,really pinpoint
the exact moment that I happened,but I feel like in my 20s,

(15:35):
I started just kind of realizing,like, oh, my parents actually know.
I do know what what really hit me,I think it was when my.
So my father suffered from a heart attack.
When I'mtrying to remember how sometime in my 20s,
this was like number of years ago,I feel like that was a major moment for me
where it made me be like, oh, I thought mymy dad was like the, the, like,

(15:58):
pinnacle of health.
Like I thought that like he was doingall the right things.
And then I was like, wait,when I actually look at it like
there were a lot of waysin which he wasn't. And,
he was a smoker, you know, very muchof the times and all those kind of things.
And I don't know why my brain just waslike disassociated the smoking from like,
obviously it's a very unhealthy habit,but because I had him on such a pedestal,

(16:22):
it was really like,you know, kind of yeah, it's huge.
When I was like, oh, wait, you've beendoing things that are not good for you.
And I have actually doing things
that are better for methan what you've been doing.
And like,you know, that that kind of like just
that ranking of going like,oh, I'm, I'm assuming
that you're doing all the right thingsand realizing that he was not and like,

(16:44):
you know, and then I'm realizing thaton a broader scope of like all the like
adults around me or the people thatI kind of like put above me that that's
I think was a big kind of like,earth shattering moment for me.
Yeah. But wow.
Yeah, yeah, it certainly is.
It's really earth shattering.Anyone going through it?
It's it's earth shattering,but I'm sure it's it's so worth it

(17:07):
and so necessary to have that realizationto be an adult, because I think that's
once you realizethat they're human, like, now,
you can really forgive themand accept them and accept yourself too.
Honestly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Because I love what you saidwhere I was just like, yeah, there.
It's not like we suddenly become
like perfect human beingswhen we become an adult. Right?

(17:27):
And now that we've, like, grown up more,you know, like,
it's just like,no, that's not how this actually works.
So it's just such an interestingrealization.
So yeah, I, I feel like you had thatrealization pretty young compared to me.
I feel like it took me an extra decade.
Yeah.
No, I'm I'm so lucky that I did.
It's, Yeah, it almost reminds me,I actually I saw this Instagram video

(17:51):
and it's funnybecause it's, it's a joke video.
So just explainingit is kind of going to kill it.
But it was the caption was like randomlygaining consciousness in kindergarten.
And you see likethis guy is like playing with a toy.
And then all of a sudden he's like,
what am I doing here?
And he's like, he has a wholeexistential crisis, like what's going on?
And like the,
like the preschool teacher, like, okay,enough time, you know, like whatever.
And like, he sees these kids,like just playing and drooling everywhere.

(18:13):
It's like, so funny.
It's like that.
That's kind of what happened to me.
I felt like,
like all of a sudden I was like,whoa, like, what's what is going on here?
Like, what is happening?
Like,why do we have these arbitrary rules?
And, and I kind of just became a rulebreaker or like a quiet rule breaker.
I would say I never got myselfinto trouble or anything like that, but,
but just,
you know, I would I'd try to drink alcoholand whatever.

(18:35):
I don't want to,
you know, kids don't
don't drink if you're listening to this,but yeah, stuff like that.
Yeah, I love that.
But I think that there's such valuein having that realization
because it's like you're allowing yourselfto be your own authority.
Yeah.
In a way that I think is
is often challenging,especially for children of immigrants.
I, you know, I think that they're,

(18:57):
you know, it's like we're instilledwith so much of like the values and
but I think it's like
everyone really goes through this rightwhere it's like your parents know best
and like we try and, like, upholdwhat they think that they want for you or,
you know,so it's like your family is like,
well,we're expecting you to become a doctor.
And you're like, oh, no, I'mnot taking on the authority anymore.
I'm going to go in a different direction.

(19:18):
So I think that's super powerful.
Like no matter what age, we havethat realization to kind of take in
and be like, oh, actually,I think I do know how to navigate things.
And and I thought it was interestingbecause you mentioned intuition.
And so I'm like,
it sounds like you started kind of honingyour intuition like pretty early.
Would you, would you agree with that?

(19:39):
Yeah, I would, I would, I would just saythat like I think culturally for Koreans
it's, it's just very normal
to have a strong sense of intuitionand to follow your gut.
Like that's kind of likeit's just a part of the culture.
It's not something you ever really taught.
It's just somethingthat is like normal to do.
And I feel like in Western cultureand American culture,
it's so differentwhere we we're taught to like,
almost like ignore our bodiesand our intuitions and whatever.

(20:02):
And I feel like that's so harmful,you know, and it's it's strange.
I, you know, we all do it to a degree,you know, ignore ourselves
and work harder than we shouldand not take the breaks that we should.
And, you know,we just scroll too often because of it
and have a hard time sleepingor just being with our own thoughts
because we're afraid to just let ourselvesbe, which is so sad. And,

(20:23):
yeah, if that's your state, you know,you could definitely get help
and make your life better because it'sthat's not how your life should be,
you know?
Yeah, absolutely I love that.
That's like a value of of your background.
I think that's amazing. Yeah. Thank you,thank you.
And I don't want to say, like,
I'm sure there are people withinthe culture that are not living up to it,
but that's from my perspective,how I see it.
But I would I'll tell you the change.

(20:43):
Actually, for me,
when I decided to become a doctorto a therapist, that was totally cool.
My parents were very much on boardbecause it was still like within the like,
oh, you'll be like a psychoticSigmund Freud, whatever.
Like that was still cool.
Yeah.
But when I went to a religious schoolafter high school,
like to kind of figure outmy faith, it's called the yeshiva.
So for those that don't know, just givea little context of a YouTube video also

(21:04):
on my channel describing what yeshiva isfor anyone that wants more details.
But basically Shiva is from seven 30inthe morning.
There's like prayers until 11 at nightwhere the whole time you're studying
Talmud. And I'll explain a little bitwhat time it is.
There's prayers and,ethics and philosophy basically.
So that's literally the whole day fromliterally seven in the morning to 11 p.m.

(21:27):
and you have like an hour for breakfast,
about an hour and a half for lunch, hourfor dinner kind of thing.
So your whole day is just basicallystudy the whole time.
Yeah.
So I went to a program my first year.
After that was had basically the morningand the afternoon,
and then at nighttimeyou could do college.
So I was,I was doing college at that point,

(21:48):
and I was just trying to figure outmy faith.
And I had these amazing, amazing rabbis.
I'm so grateful for these people.
They've changed my life,they've influenced me and changed
my life and made me a million timesa better person
and just the number one thingthat if I could just point out to them
what was so like inspiring about themwas that they were just happy.
Every day they would come in.

(22:09):
They were passionate.
They were happy,they loved what they were doing.
They literally came in and it was like,oh guys, let's go, let's study.
And they were so sincereand so deep and so smart.
And, the rabbi of that YouTube, likethe main rabbi, he's called the Shiva,
he's called like he'skind of like the Dumbledore of the school,
you know,he's like, he's like the headmaster.

(22:30):
So that meant the receiver.
I, Kramer, was a genius.
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant person,brilliant person.
And for those that don't know for Talmudwhat time it is, it's
basicallyJewish law interpreted from the Bible.
And it's extremely logical, like,and I'm sure like if you're studying it
from an external logic,it might not hold up

(22:50):
with like classical logic rulesor whatever.
But within itself,there's a very strong logic,
like things have to make sense internally.
So the way it worksis that you read a passage of the Bible
or whatever it is, right?There's like maybe 1 or 2 words.
And then from that, the rabbis
like a thousand years ago,this is written a long time ago,
derived that, oh, this is the law thatyou're like the Bible is teaching you.

(23:12):
This is what you're supposed to do.
So, then from that,there's these different rabbis
arguing about the opinionand there's these logical arguments
like question, answer, question, answer.
That's the style.
It's random question, natural questionanswer until you come to a conclusion.
So throughout the generations,there have been these other rabbis
that have, commentedand created different questions.
So there are many layers that it goesbecause, say, in theory, like within

(23:34):
Orthodox Judaism, they believethe Bible was written 3500 years ago,
and then they believe the Mishnah,which is like the next level pass
that was written about 2000 years ago.
The mission.That's like the first explanation.
The first written explanationof how to understand the Bible, like
from from the written Bibleto practice laws.
It's like when Orthodox Jews,they keep kosher, they keep Shabbat, they,
you know, whatever the lawsof being an Orthodox Jewish Jew are,

(23:58):
that's that was the first timeit was written down as the interpretation.
Because the Bible is hard to understand.
It's not always very clear
what you're supposed to like,what law is being prescribed here.
So the mission breaks downexactly what law it is.
Then you have the Gomorrahthat was written in about 16
or 1700 years ago, I believe.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but that explainsthe Gomorrah, explains the rationale.
And then you have different rabbisthroughout the generations that explain

(24:20):
and ask questions basically on the bar.
So the whole thing that you're studyingall day is just logic.
And the reasonwhy this is done from morning to night
and why it's so important and why there'sso much emphasis put on it, is because
Orthodox Jews believe that, you know,the Bible was given from God.
So how to understand the Bible,how to understand it like like God?
Thought process in a sense,is basically thinking more like God.

(24:42):
So the idea is like you'reconnecting yourself to God in this way
of thinking through channeling youryour brain and thought and intellect,
which is what makes humansmore unique than animals.
So we're connecting through God,through our intellect,
and understanding how we think sothat we become, in a sense,
like more like a more connected to him,if that makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for explaining thatbecause I yeah, I,

(25:03):
I like don'thave a lot of background in it,
but I think that's so interestingfrom the standpoint of like the closeness
and like the trying to get closer to Godand like wanting to really understand
the wisdom behind the booksand really trying to kind of pull
and it sounds like there's a lot oflike questioning and trying to understand

(25:24):
is that's not true. Yeah, 100%.
The whole thing is just questioningand trying to understand.
And it's legitimately I've neverI've never been to like a monastery.
I don't really know whatlike other faiths, like,
I guessthey're like what they do in monasteries,
but I imagine it's very similarin the sense where it's just kind of like
all day focusing on, you know,becoming enlightened in a sense, you know?

(25:45):
Yeah. Yeah.
No, it's very interestingjust because it's it's true.
It's like you have these, like,texts, these great texts from like,
thousands and thousands of years ago,but it's like trying to understand,
like what, what it really meansand what it's trying to teach you.
And it
I don't know, it's so interestingbecause it's like we can
look at it in so many different lenses,and different
people will take different thingsfrom the readings, I'm sure.

(26:07):
And it's like everyone'sgoing to have their own interpretation
certain ways, right?
But somehow we end up still in like,I don't know.
Organizedreligion is very fascinating to me
from that standpointof like creating these kind of constructs
off of these texts because it is someone'sinterpretation of them.
Right? 100%.
Yeah, yeah, 100%.It sounds interpretation.

(26:28):
And I think that that like there are rulesalso about, like things like
how you ask and what types of questionsthere are to ask.
It's very interesting.
And it's, it's very easyto get dissolved into that world
and feel like you likethis is the right thing to do.
Like, I'll tell you, I have my own this.
Okay.
So so justI continuing with the story, actually.

(26:50):
So I love my rabbis.
I'm so grateful for them.
You know, they really showed mepurpose and meaning in life,
and they've sharpened my mindtremendously to be able to, like,
think in that way,like to really be analytical and like,
break down a conceptand really try to understand it
as well as like meaningand connecting to God and what that means.
Like I was not orientedand like I was actually, my, my nature,

(27:15):
I would say, is more philosophicaland wanting to be oriented to that.
So they gave me like the platform
and the avenue to actually like,learn those things in an in-depth way.
And I'm so grateful that I did that.
And like, honestly,I liken that experience to Hogwarts
because it's so, so, so it's so esoteric,it's so esoteric, and it's so like,

(27:37):
just the
world that you get like sucked intowith these, like, these rules and it's,
it legitimately is it's kind of likesetting magic in a sense, almost.
Obviously has nothing to do with magic,but it's like,
it's just really cool.
And I'm so grateful for that experience.
But I do have like, problems with itnow that I'm not like, and,
you know, I do have certain, issueswith the community,

(27:58):
I think, nothing like negative.
And I kind of want to be carefultalking about it to an external audience,
because I feel like this is more criticismthat I would give within my community
not to, like, say, to the outside,yeah, sure.
But yeah, no problem.
But like to share a little bit.
I think within the Shiva community, likethere's a lot of pressure for everyone
to go into your Shiva
for as long as possible,and that's becoming more and more normal.

(28:20):
And I, I personally I'm against thatbecause I think everyone's different
and not everyone should be doing thatall day.
And I think, like if you're if you'rejust sitting there learning like it's it's
not what I don't think it'sactually what God wants for somebody to do
for as long as possible.
You know, I think God wants like Godcreated us to be in this world, to live
in this world, to, to participate.

(28:41):
And I feel like the pressurefor individuals that,
yeah, fine, maybe they can go to YouTubefor a few years,
like just to tell them to go beyond that.
It's really I feel like it's unhealthyand it just it's,
people, there are peoplethat stay longer than they should.
And it's like,
you know, Idon't think they're doing the right thing,
but yet there's like a sort of there'sa sort of community pressure to do it.

(29:03):
And yeah.
Yeah. Now that's super interesting.
Well, and so just to be clear,you were saying it sounded like
you were kind of doing all the study
during the day, and then in the eveningsyou were kind of doing college coursework.
And that was that kind of how it work.
That was how it worked.
And I love that.
And I did that for about a year.
And then I decided after a yearthat I'm not going to continue college.

(29:24):
I got 90 credits,
which is great, like I and I ended upusing those credits to graduate. But
but basically I decided Iwas going to do time and study full time.
So I stopped doing college at night andI would just study in the Shiva full time.
And I did that without any other collegefor four years about where I was studying,
and I thought I was goingto become a rabbi, basically.
And then I thought maybe I would geta therapist degree on the side,

(29:47):
you know, and like, as a rabbi,I could like, also counsel
people likethat was kind of my thought process.
But basically.
Basically one
after four years, I had to do my masters.
And so I started college again at night.
But it was so overwhelming to keep upmy grades with continuing my study.

(30:07):
And I really didn't know what to do.
And, I was burning out badly.
Burning up, like, really, really badlyburning out because it was very intense.
Like I said,the schedule is extremely intense.
You don't really have a lot of free time,and I was only given two
nights a week to do college, and I'm doinga master's program full time.
So I'm writing ten page papers, you know,having to read like research papers.

(30:28):
And they're really hard to read sometimes,you know, having to read all these
papers and textbooksand other projects that I was doing,
it was very, very, very overwhelmingand I couldn't balance it.
And basically,I had a conversation with, with a rabbi
that I was very close with,and he was like,
and I was talking with them about like,what the right thing to do
is with my goals,you know, that I want to start a family.

(30:49):
And, you know, you know,these were things that I like.
Eventually I want to start a family.Not at that point.
I was 23 at that time, so, you know, butI knew I wanted to, to do that eventually.
So I knew I needed my mastersand to get started on working and all that
and basically hewe came to the decision that like, yeah,
I think it would be better
if you left to pursue your masters and,you know, maybe did like,

(31:12):
you know, you could still studyand be a part of everything, but,
you know, you have to focus on that more
then than that because I was justburning out and can handle it.
And I just startedbreaking down, crying, breaking down.
Like I literally I lost it.
I was I was crying so badly.
And he's like, why are you crying?
Like, what's like,what are you crying about?
And I was like,this was like, I put so much into this,

(31:32):
I really wanted this.This was like my, my dream and my goal.
And I wanted to to become a rabbi.
And like, I'm seeing that, like, this goalis it's not going to work out for me.
And it was so it was so heartbreaking.
And I was crying like so badly.
And, you know, ultimately I leftand it was very heartbreaking.
It was very hard.
But I think it was the best thing for me.
Like I really, genuinely think thatlike now in hindsight, I really, genuinely

(31:54):
think like God was doing mea massive solid, like a massive solid
because like,
I look back at it and I'm really gratefulfor from my experience that I had there,
and it's somethingI'll carry with me forever.
And I would never take it back because ofhow beautiful and amazing it was.
But like, I'm realizing that, like,that's not what I like.
I feel like there was so much more for mein the world than just within that bubble
that I was in, that it wasit was a comfortable bubble.

(32:15):
It was beautiful.I really liked it. I really enjoyed it.
I really felt like I was doingsomething good and really attaining this,
like going on this enlightenment path,so to speak, and like, like leaving that.
It's heartbreaking.
But I'm realizing now like,oh, God has so much more in store for me
than just that.
And now it'sit's like maybe eight years later. But,

(32:35):
yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
Well, first of all, thank you for sharingbecause it's it's not easy
to really talk about thoselike really tough moments.
And so I, I appreciate you being willingand open to talk about it.
And I so.
Well first off just to clarify.
So your master's program was in

(32:56):
like moving you towards therapy,is that correct?
Yeah. My master's program was moving metowards therapy.
My okay.
So this this yeshiva offers,
they give you a bachelor's degreeand they're accredited as well.
So I was because I'm studying all day.
Kind of likethey got those courses to be credit.
So I was studying philosophy and ethicsand, Jewish law kind of all day.
So I got a bachelors intell me the law and rabbinic literature.

(33:17):
And then I was doing thismaster's in marriage
and family therapyand professional clinical counseling.
At the same time.
Okay, okay. Got it.
So, yeah, I think that's so interesting,though, because.
So you started this master's program,
like, still thinking you wantedto become a rabbi at that point.
Yeah, yeah. Okay.
So it was like you were like,I'm going to become a rabbi

(33:38):
and I'm going to studyto be to move into therapy.
Yeah. I was thinking, right.
I was thinking like primarily
I would be a rabbiand then I would have this degree to like
if like because rabbis do a lot of,counseling as well, you know.
Sure.
Like helping couplesor this or that or whatever.
So I was thinking that, like,I want to just have professional training
in that so that if I'm becoming like,if I'm a rabbi

(34:00):
and people want to come talk to melike I'll be professionally trained,
you know,that was my thought process got I got it.
And then it kind of overtook it.
I think that's so interestingbecause like what you're describing is
it reminds me of like this ideaof like you're almost like
it's like a part of you is dying, right?
Like,and I'm sure that's what I felt like.
And the way that you talked about, like,the experience, like, definitely

(34:20):
speaks to that. Right?Like it's a part of you is dying.
The part of you that thought like,
this is the path,this is the way I'm going to go.
And then suddenly you're like, wait,that's not what I'm doing.
And I feel likethat is so tough to go through.
So I, you know, I appreciate thatthat idea like, and it's so interesting
because how you talked about nowyou're like, oh, that was actually

(34:44):
God doing me a solidI want to praise that.
That was great.
Right?
Where I was like,that actually was the right thing.
But it's like in that moment, I'msure it was so hard for you to see that.
Right?
Like in that momentyou're like devastated.
Devastated. Yeah. Really devastated.
You know,
like, I think it's so hard to alwayslook back at something, but I think

(35:05):
even at that point, like, I understood,like, this is what God wants for me.
But it was still heartbreaking, you know,it was still extremely heartbreaking,
because it was like it was my dream.
It was something that I invested
so much time and energy to,and I was very good at it.
Like, I, I enjoyed the study and alsowithin there's something called Kirov,
which means you work with unaffiliatedJews or Jews that are less affiliated.

(35:29):
And I used to doa lot of care of opportunities
just to be able to talk with peoplethat were unaffiliated and bring them.
It's not exactly like proselytizing,maybe a little bit,
but like proselytizing, you would go tosomebody like a total stranger.
This is a little different.
They would have these camps where kids,
for parents that maybe wanted their kidsto become more affiliated.
So they would have these programsto just connect people

(35:51):
that wanted to connect with peoplethat were like, more experienced
than like,like you, Sheba, guys such as myself.
Yeah.
So that was a connection.
It wasn't like I was going to peoplethat like, didn't want,
hey, have you heard of the,you know, God or whatever?
But yeah, I wasI was extremely good at it.
Like, I was always in all these campsthat I went to,
I was always a counselor that everyonewanted to hang out with and talk to. And,

(36:14):
you know, I really felt like I connectedwith a lot of people
and especially like peoplethat were, like, thought out
and I could have thesephilosophical conversations with them.
It was awesome.
I loved it.
So it just felt like,
I don't know what the word isa waste of a talent, I don't know.
But yeah, it felt like it that, you know,and since then I've,
I've sort of like had many deaths,but yeah.
Yeah, but that was like the big one.

(36:36):
That was a big one.
I would say like it's so funny.
I think like there's like the concept
of like an ego death or somethingwhere like you're like kind of shatters,
you know, high school, that example
that I was talking about in high school,but like, that's an ego that,
you know, like, that's like your worldjust gets shattered.
Like, like, what are you really like,what's going on?
Then that was that was a big one,too, is like a death of another identity

(36:57):
where it was like,I really wanted to go down this
path and like, I'm just realizingit's not going to happen, you know?
Yeah, I love that.
I think it's interestingbecause it's like within a lifetime,
I feel like we, in a way,live multiple lifetimes where, like,
you evolve into, like a totallydifferent version of yourself and like,
live a totally different life.
And it sounds like,you know, that these definitely

(37:17):
are kind of those moments where it's like,oh, I just like,
shifted into a totally different statethan I, where I thought I was going.
And now we're over here now. Yeah, right.
Can I tell you an anecdotal story?
Absolutely.
So I, when I was single,
I had these incredible, incrediblebest friends
that we would hang out all the time,and it was awesome.

(37:38):
I love these people, you know, togetherand they're still my best friends.
But, you know, we don't wedefinitely don't hang out like we used to.
Every once in a while,we'll get together or whatever.
Now, I'm a father, and it's tough.
So my wife agreed to let me go outwith my best friend, Texas.
He lives out and he lives out there.
But I'm going to Texas.
And literally, I can't even explain to youthe feeling feels like that.

(37:59):
I'm going on this trip for one week.
It literally feels like as if you toldme, like, imagine if I'm dead, right?
Like, so I'm a ghost and I'm like,yeah, that's cool.
Whatever. You know, I'mI'm living out in the afterlife.
It's pretty cool.
And then you tell me, like, you could go,you could come back to life for one week.
You know, it's literally the same feeling.
It's literally just like,oh my God. Like, it's going to be awesome.
We're going have like a partyand you know, everything.

(38:21):
Even though it's so funny, it,
it makes you think of there is this thing,this is a random, thought, but,
it's made me think of,
how I Met Your Mother,which was a show I really love.
They use this term vertigo, where it'slike when you're around certain people,
you suddenly, like,
revert into the version of youthat you were when you were around them.
And I feel like that's what you'respeaking for, right?

(38:43):
Yeah. That's exactly what it is.
It's like like, I'mso excited for this trip.
I'm like,oh yeah, it's going to be so awesome.
And it's like, that used to be my life.
Every day, you know what I mean?
Did it feel good going back into thisfirmer version of yourself?
Like, to think I hadn't done the tripyet, but, Oh, okay.
Yeah. Like it's coming up. Like,it just feels like you're telling me.
Like I could come back, and that's like,I love my life now.

(39:05):
Like I love my wife. I love my child.
I love everything about it. But, like,it just feels so fun.
So like, okay, I'm going to go and, like,almost like be single for a week again,
I love that, I love that, yeah.
I hope you have a great timeon your upcoming trip.
That oh, thank you so much.
To me, like,thinking about it feels great.
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So, yeah.

(39:26):
So you went down this path,you suddenly, like, decide
to go and become a therapist.
Which was your original plan?
Kind of like,that's what I thought was so interesting
is, like you have mentionedbefore that, like,
in high school, you already thoughtyou were going to become a therapist.
Yeah.
And then it was like you took this detourand which, like

(39:47):
the therapy was still underlying,but now you're, like, fully doing therapy.
Yeah. Now I'm fully doing therapy.
Yeah. Right.
Yeah.
I was to tell you in high school,I actually,
I learned to hypnotize in high school.
Oh, I was, yeah,
I was hypnotizing kids in my high schoolall the time because, like,
I knew I wanted to become a therapist,so I was like, I have to learn hypnosis.

(40:08):
I wanted to be like,
at that point, especially, especiallyalso because with my friend, yeah,
we were just both very,like philosophical in that sense.
And like, we wanted to do likewe wanted to be like the next, like Freud.
Jung like kind of likewe wanted to be at that level, you know?
Now I don't have an ambition to beat that level.
I love just doing therapy.
But, yeah,

(40:28):
yeah. Wait inside. Nope.
Because I think you've, like, oftenmentioned this,
but your parents were on boardwith the therapy,
but they were less on boardwith the theology, too, I don't think.
Yeah, yeah. We didn'twe didn't talk about that.
They were not on board with the theology.
They were not
they they came around to it, actually,but they didn't
want me to, to go to rabbi schooland become a rabbi at all.

(40:50):
They, they didn't want that.
I think that's interesting.
This was like your rebellion was goingto theology school.
Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah.
And maybe it was some formof rebellion. Makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I think, like, yeah,they were not on board with that at all.
And I wouldn't say thatI did it to spite them.
I think I was just thinking of myselfat that time

(41:10):
and like doing what I thought was right.
But yeah, maybe some part of me was like,yeah, you know, spitting and spit.
So funny. But then they came around to it.
They were kind of like, okay, well,because I was doing my masters,
like I told them,I want to do my master's after.
And so they were more on board.
They were like, okay, you know, at leastwho's going to have a degree or something.
So. Right, right.
Okay. Cool.
And so I'm assuming they were happywhen you decided to then switch back

(41:32):
to really focusing on therapyor how did they feel about that switch.
That's a good question.
You know,I'm like I'm trying to think about it.
And funny enough,I don't think I even told them,
you know, really, I don'tI don't know if I even told them.
Yeah.
Like I don't think I, I don't think I everhad a conversation with them about that.
Interesting.
I'm like trying to think like,
I'm sure I did

(41:53):
just because I like I'm sure I did,but nothing is standing out to me
in my memory of like,what that conversation was like. And
I think they were just like,okay, you know, they're like, yeah, well,
I mean, itsounds like they were more on board
with that from the get go anyway,so maybe it was kind of a moot point.
But actually, I'm curious,like what has been because to me
it's like my family is being moretraditional.

(42:14):
Was never very on board with, with therapyor like mental health and everything.
And since considering thatthat's been such a focal point for you,
like how has it beenin terms of like your background
and your family knowing that you also comefrom a more traditional background?
Yeah, that's a great question.
That's an amazing question, I think.
Yeah, it's such a good question.

(42:35):
My parents were extremely againstgoing to therapy
and extremely against me going to therapyto even for my school counselor,
because they're like therapyfor crazy people, you know?
Right.
Like that kind of thing.
And I think they were thinking like, okay,I could be a professor or,
you know, working with crazy people twoor whatever, like crazy people, whatever.
So to them it was like, yeah, like my momactually.

(42:56):
So like, in in is likeessentially was a midwife.
And then here she was a nurse.
And then for a while she was working withlike special needs cases.
So like for her also would be like,okay, you're working with like,
you know,bipolar, schizophrenia, stuff like that.
So that was like in her mindmaybe I don't know
or or people depressed, stuff like that.
Sorry.
Where am I going with this?
My parents.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

(43:18):
They, I think they'vethey've changed their minds, like, I don't
I still don't think I wouldn'teven want to say
if they were in therapy because it'snothing. It's nobody's business.
But like, I think they've
they've come around to the idea of it,you know, they've come around to,
you know, even for themselves.
I think they'll be open to it.
If they decided thatthat was something they wanted to do.

(43:39):
And. Yeah.
And I think for myself, too, I never had,
I think to me, it'slike I don't have an issue
kind of not following society'sstructures and rules.
So like to me, like my parts were like,oh, therapists were crazy people.
I was like, what are you talking about?You know, like, the yoni is awesome.
And, and I'm not crazy,and it's just great talking with them.
Like,I get so much clarity in my life and,

(44:01):
so, yeah, that's that's howI think I navigated it for myself.
Interesting. Yeah.
I mean, I had to navigate that as well.
That's why I was like, so curiouswhat your thoughts were on it, because I,
I remember I started seeing a therapist
maybe probably around like 23or something like that, 24.
And I was like, oh,I feel a lot better when I go to therapy.
But my parents like fought me on itbecause, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(44:24):
because of that exact idea.
Like, therapy is for crazy people.
Like you're not crazy, like,why would you need therapy?
And and I think there's, I don't know
if you experienced this, butI think there's also this idea of like,
why would you go and talk to someoneoutside the family?
Oh, 100%. Yes, 100%.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's like, oh, this is like our stuff.

(44:45):
Like you don't go sharing thiswith like, strangers.
So yeah,I feel like there's a lot of that going on
that keeps a lot of peoplefrom doing therapy.
But it's true.
Like I, you know,I think you and I both kind of exemplify
going against that grain, going like, oh,but it's helping me.
And so why would I not do it. Yeah.

(45:07):
And and so it's and granted, it's like
I just think as a society like therapyhas just become so normalized now.
But I'm thinking like back like back ten,20 years ago.
It's like very, very weird.
Right? Right right right.
Yeah yeah yeah.
And I mean, think of the culturehas shifted on that

(45:27):
because therapy is so helpfuland so important.
And for those wondering,therapy is hyper compliant.
So your therapist cannot tell anybodyany like it's
not getting back to your family.Whatever you tell your therapist,
you know,unless obviously you're trying to murder
somebody in your family, but,you know, that's the exception.
But yeah, therapy is extremely helpful.
And it's, it's helpful for families to,

(45:50):
you know, I don't want to talk about,like, clients stories, but it's it's
it's helpful.
It's, you know, it definitely works. And
if you have, if you've had a therapistand it didn't work, you know,
try again, like, actually.
So Yoni was the third therapist I went to.
My school counselor was the third one.
We had two different school counselors,and I went to the two others first.
Unfortunately, beforeI went to Yoni and the other two, I.

(46:13):
I'm sorry to say this, but they sucked.They were horrible.
And then Yoni was like amazing, like.
And he really changed my life from. So,
Yeah, I,
you know, sometimes
you may have to see a few therapistsbefore you find one
that really works for you,but it's extremely, extremely helpful.
And it's just it helps you just,
even just talking, like, expressinghow your week went and having somebody

(46:33):
that listens to you and helpsyou try to improve it
and like your day to day or whatever.
So helpful and keeps you accountable.
And then obviously for deeper issuesto help you reprocess
and go through stories and be in controlof your own narrative in a sense.
And that's so importantand it's so helpful and valuable.
So I very much encourage therapy.
And also, you know, family counselinghelps a lot and couples counseling helps.

(46:56):
So yeah, I mean I couldn't agree more.
I, I'm a huge proponent of therapy.
I like I love my therapist.
I think she's amazing. Yeah.
But and I think that's such a good pointthough is like, you might not find
the right person on the in the first oneand it might take a few attempts to like,
find the right personbecause like, to me, it's that right.

(47:16):
Yeah.
Not all therapists are exactly the same.
And like,finding the one that kind of suits
you and who you aremight take some trial and error.
So I think that's such a good point.
Yeah.
And what is coaching? Coaching is also.
Yeah, coaching is great.
No. But seriously, coachingkeeps you accountable and keeps you,
you know, on point with your goalsand your tasks and helps

(47:38):
you just navigate a world that you knowis perhaps foreign.
And it's so important
to have a mentor and a coachand somebody to help you through life.
So, yeah, we're very related.
I feel like areas, but yes, coachingobviously, I would say is amazing helps
you move towards your goals and everythingand and yeah, it's true.
Like just having that sounding boardand I don't know, to me it's like I,

(48:02):
I love coaching
just because I'm helping navigate peoplein like a way that I've been there before.
And it's like,okay, like this is what it's worked like.
This is why I've seen other peoplebe able to work for them.
Like, it's like I'm focusing all my energyon figuring that out
and helping them navigate that. Right.
So it's like that sounding boardI feel like that we all need from time

(48:22):
to time.
Instead of trying to like, go it alone.
And, you know, it'slike we can get so stuck in our own minds.
And I feel like both coaching and therapy,the benefit is like just having someone
listen to you and be able to, like, helpyou navigate and like,
sort out, like what really suits you.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Absolutely.

(48:43):
So why would it kind of,you know, going back along your path,
like when you decided, like,I'm going to do therapy now, like fully
and then starting up your own practice,like,
what has that been like for you of moving.
And you talked a little bit to me
the first time we met about it,but what is that been like for you?
It's been hell.

(49:04):
It's, Yeah, it's been it's been wild.
Again, I think it's it's got doing memore solid, but.
And it's it's always impossible to see.
But I'll tell you the starting pill form
my first job out of college,out of my master's program.
My university was workingas a school counselor.
And I loved that job.

(49:24):
I loved that job.
I was amazing at the jobI loved, like, not to toot my own horn,
but every day kids would be like, golly,I really need to talk to you at this.
Like, like every single day.
And I was working in a middle school,55th grade, and it was it was awesome.
It was just it was the best.
I loved coming into workand being appreciated.
And I'd like big person.
I would come with my guitarand I would play some guitar

(49:44):
and play some songs and like,the kids would just like
they would just like, like come aroundand like it was just cool.
It was it was awesome to survive and like,
it's I really love the job.
And every day I was, I was appreciated.
And it was like two miles awayfrom where I live.
So I would bike to work.
It was just it was awesome.
Like totally, totally, totally awesome.
And I was there for two years.
And what happened was that the agency, thethe way that I was placed in the school

(50:09):
was that I was getting paid throughan, an agency
that would place me in that school.
So basically the agencylost funding for me and I had to leave.
It was so sad.
It was so sad.I love that job so, so, so much.
And it was it was really,really, really sad to leave.
So I because I was doing such a good jobthere too, which was like really horrible.

(50:32):
And the school wasso sad and everything. And
so it was
tough and I left, but, at that point,I started my
it actually was perfect timingbecause I just got my license.
So, I was able to start my practice.
Otherwise it would be horrible.
I wouldn'tbe able to start my own practice.
So anyways, I started my own practice.
It was very tough in the beginningto navigate, like, how to do it.

(50:53):
Even ChatGPT is your friend.
Anybody does not know how to use ChatGPT.
I'm telling you, it's the most worthit tool to learn to use
like you need to learn. ChatGPT yesterday.
Like literally like a year ago.
Honestly.
Most important tool ever
was using chat.
See a lot to help me with my websitejust to navigate stuff.

(51:15):
And just figuring out different pagesto go on.
Psychology today didn't help me.
All these other platforms did not help me.
The only thing that I found helped me wasZoc doc was amazing at sending referrals.
But here's the other thing.
I'm gonna make a YouTube videoabout this actually.
So it'll it'll be explain more,but you need to get on
something called headwayor almost like whatever.

(51:37):
I mean, I use headway personally.
I'm always the best because it's free.
So one up.
But basically they build yourthey built clients insurance for you.
So they will put you on all the insurancepanels.
It takes a couple of monthsto get on the insurance panels,
but they will put you on insurance panels.
And then all you dois the paperwork and all that,
and they basically buildthe insurance for you.
They take, I think a generous court,honestly, but they pay you pretty well.

(51:59):
They pay you better than the otherplatforms. Well, and they're free.
So it's it's awesome.
I mean, once you get on your feetand you have enough money
that you don't need money every two weeks,
you can start billingthe insurance yourself,
and then you'll get paidlike every 1 to 3 months.
So if you can survive one, two,three months without getting paid,
you know, you could buildthe insurance yourself and let yourself.
But there's a lot more paperwork involved.And you also have to wait to get paid.
So AMA headway will pay you upfront,every two weeks, which is great.

(52:24):
And then basically once you do that,
you get on doc doc, and then I get like,I turned off my doc talk for a few months.
I returned it back on for a day,and I got 12 referrals in one day.
So it's literallyjust like it's it's the best.
If you're a therapistand you struggling to get clients,
I'm like, it's not paying me.Headway is not paying me.
Get on. How do I get on, doc, docand you will be full, you know.
Oh, and get good reviews.

(52:45):
Oh my God. Get good reviews.
Get good reviews.Please do not get bad reviews.
If you get even one bad review on doc doc.
You're screwed.
Like I got a bad reviewfrom a client I didn't even see.
You know,
because there was a he he.
It was an accidental double booking.
Okay. This is so important.If you're. Whatever.
There's so much information, guys.
Check out my YouTube video onwhenever it comes out

(53:05):
on, starting your own private practiceand using Doc
and Headway because there's a lotof little things you need to know as well.
And I'll go into it in more detail there.
That video isI have not created it yet, but I will,
but basically I accidentally had a doublebooking and so I emailed this client.
Hey, there was an accidentaldouble booking.
Can you please change sessions, like,
to a different timeand I, you know, send them.

(53:27):
They didn't respond to the email.
I called themand no response to the call either.
And then I basically was like okay.
And client.
Then later the client contacted me like,hey, you missed our session.
So I said, hey, I emailed you.
I tried calling you,
that there was an accidental level looking
and I didn't hear back from you and like,so I had to cancel our session.
So he left me a bad review.
I had to go on, on doc doc and dispute it.

(53:48):
And TikTok was giving me a hard time
until I basically went inand whatever filed it as a no show.
I did get the review taken offbecause I didn't even see the client.
And, but within that timethat that guy gave me a better view.
I had a one star reviewbecause of that guy.
I got zero bookings,
so I was going from like, yeah,I was going from like six bookings a day
or something like that to literally zerobookings overnight, which is crazy.
So do not get any better reviews.

(54:10):
It it
also just like goes to show you the powerof like reviews though, and like, yeah,
I don't know like I think I always thinkit's interesting like why people put like
we'll put outbad reviews on things like that.
We get so upset about things.
And that's why, like the, the age ofthe internet is just so wild to me.
Whereas just like anyone, anywherecould go on the internet and like,

(54:32):
say bad things about you these dayswith like without you actually
doing anything wrong and I that's,that's such an interesting story.
But I'm glad you were able to like,dispute it.
So that song can still be so fruitfulfor you.
Yeah, 100%.
I'm so lucky that that happened thatthey took it off, but it really taught me.
Also, I noticed the more good reviewsI had, the more bookings I was getting.

(54:54):
So it's really like,it's it's a, it's a feed.
Like make sure you're getting good reviewsand do not get better. Is
noted.
Noted.
Well, I appreciate you sharing all thisbecause I'm sure there's people out there
like trying to figure this exact thing outand hopefully agree on 100%.
And and I'm sure it's not just a doc.
It's like anythingit's like Google or this or that, like,

(55:14):
like get good reviews, don't get better.
Try your best not to get betteris, you know. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And, like, you can't please everyone,but to the, to the best of your ability.
That's what I say. Yeah.
So do you feel like ever sinceyou've kind of cracked that code
that it's been relatively easier,like kind of growing your practice 100%?
It's much easier.

(55:35):
Ideally, I wouldn't want to rely on doclike, ideally I'd have my own website
doing all the advertisingfor me in a sense,
because like, like I said, I got onebetter view on TikTok, so I'm done.
You know, like, it's it'sjust better not to rely on other people
if you don't have to, but,yeah, they do a good job.
So for now it's fine. But yeah, onceI cracked that code, it was very easy.
And that for me,was the only thing that worked.

(55:56):
I know other people's psychologytoday works for them.
They get referrals from doctorsor this or that.
I've never gottenany referrals from a doctor.
I've nothing, you know. Nothing.
I got one referral from Psychology Todaythat actually materialized to a client,
and that's about it.
Like nothing else works except for doc,and I don't even know why.
My my plot,
my page is exactly the same onall the platforms,
so I don't know why this one'sworking for me and that one's not.

(56:18):
And I really don't know, you know.
Yeah, it I don't know, I,
I think that there's a lot of thiskind of like, business building
where it's like, you gotta try a cropa lot of different things.
And like, one is suddenly going to workand the other ones weren't working.
You don't really understand why.
And that's just like the way it is.
Right?
So, yeah, it sounds like that waskind of the process that you went through

(56:38):
and then turned out to be the,the winning horse for whatever reason.
Yeah. And it's still the winninghorse, literally.
Like just one dayI turned on my availability.
12 clients in a day, like a few, like,
I don't know, like a few hours,you know, it's incredible. Yeah.
So your
your focusand like do you have kind of like a focus
in terms of your therapy or likehow does that work?

(56:59):
I like to work with youngadult men, partly because it's like that's
the stagethat I'm just most recently going through.
But yeah, I justI love working with anyone. Honestly.
I've worked with older people,women of all, of all ages, you know, and,
it's it's a lot of fun.
It's just I like working with people, butyoung adult men because I feel like it's,

(57:19):
It's a very tumultuous
time for any young adult, you know,and you're trying to figure out your life.
And I think for men especially,we need guidance.
We need people that are, you know, every
every Luke Skywalker has the Obi-Wan and,
you know, and Harry has stumbled overand whatever.
We could go on and on,but it's it's a classic story,

(57:40):
and I feel like I find a lot of meaningand being able to help
somebody navigate a very challenging,like, challenging point in life.
Yeah.
And I feel like I'm good at it too,so that helps, I love that.
Well, two thoughts
I forgot to say this before,but I was like, I could totally see you.
See you being the awesomeschool counselor.

(58:01):
So I, I was like, oh,I forgot to mention that before,
but I was like,I could totally picture this.
And I feel like I could totally seethe kids being like,
totally obsessed with you.So I think that's amazing.
But to this point, I love thatthis is your you're like, focus because I,
I feel like especially there's stillI think there's a bit of a gap
in terms of like men going to therapy and,and like that still hasn't

(58:25):
become quite as normalized in the waythat therapy in general, I think has been.
But I think it's more female focusedor it has been.
So I think it's really importantthat you're kind of like opening up to
like opening up the dialogand the conversation of of having
men actually seek therapy more.
Would you agree with all that?
I wouldI think the the tide is turning, though

(58:47):
I do think it's becoming more normalfor men to, to seek help.
So I'm coming up on a good time now.
But, yeah, yeah, it's definitely true.
I definitely think, you know,
a lot of men are told to bottle upand, you know, not express.
And it's it's so strange because, like,I just explained every story and ever,

(59:09):
you know, a man needs a somebodyto help guide them through the task.
You know, so it's just it's
it's strange.
It's almost like a disconnectin the culture
where it's like a manis expected to be independent,
but yet every movie, there's never a manthat's completely independent,
you know, every every man on the hero'sjourney has a mentor.
So, yeah,I think that's such a good point.

(59:30):
And and yeah,I hope that any man that's listening to
this episode is going to hear that andresonate with it, because I, I feel like,
yeah, I feel like there'sthis kind of toxic masculinity that
kind of tells men, especially that, like,they need to figure it out on their own,
or they're supposed to be the onesfiguring it out and said, trust me,
because I think of like, mento women relationships.

(59:52):
And it's like men often want to bethe fixer of like, women's problems.
And women are like,no, I just want you to listen to me.
And that's like, and yeah, I feel likethat's such a common dynamic that goes on.
I know you can agree,but I think this is a common.
The dynamic is like men believe,like I have to fix everything.
And so therefore it's like,oh, and I need to go it alone.

(01:00:14):
And I'm supposed to have all the answers.
Yeah. Exactly.
And, and so like breaking that downand going like, no,
that's actually not what you need to doand you can get
help is such a like an empoweringfrankly it's so empowering.
And I'll tell youalso I think a lot of it is framing.
Sorry I interrupted,but I think a lot of it.
Yeah, a lot of it is framing.
Like mendon't want to feel like they're weak

(01:00:34):
and they don't want to feel likethey are dumb.
They don't want to feel like they needhelp, you know?
So I think that if,
some of the angle of coming intotherapy is like, oh, that means I'm weak,
or that means I need help,that means I'm dumb like this
person, like,you know, like that, that aspect.
And nobodylikes to feel any of those things.
But I think it's it is like,especially important for men to,
you know, to feel like they're competentand to feel like they're strong

(01:00:56):
and to feel like they're capable.
So, you know, I think the framingof therapy, if it's if it's more like,
no, like going to therapy doesn'tmean any of those things.
It doesn't it doesn't mean that at all.
You know,it means like you're trying to improve
and you're on this path of developmentand growing your self to be the best man
that you can be.You know, like you're still strong.
How can you apply thatstrength to your life?

(01:01:17):
You know, you are smart.
Like, how can you use that intelligenceto solve your problems and, to create
an even more beautiful lifeof your dreams?
You know, you are strong.
You can get through this, like, here's,
like, let's talk about howand getting through it and having that,
like, type of angle coming fromthat is so empowering.
And I think better angle for men.
You know, I love that, I love thatI think the thing that was ringing

(01:01:38):
true to me is like, we've looked attherapy as a form of weakness in the past,
and I actually think the exact opposite istrue, is actually seeking out therapy
or coaching or whateveris really a form of strength 100%.
Yeah, it's from strength.
It's a resource for sure. Absolutely.
I, I love that, all right.
I feel like I could keep talking
you forever, but I know that you mighthave some, like, Well, what was the.

(01:02:01):
You have a I have an electrician.
Yeah. Coming.
So so let's start to wrap up.
So, let me first say,is there anything that we haven't
covered off on thatyou would like to share?
Yes. Guys, go send Jessica love.
Subscribe to this episode.
This is that subscribe to this ofthose is the flow permission.

(01:02:23):
So permission to flow is nowthe name of the podcast that's so fun.
I want to ask you, like,why permission to flow?
Oh, it it was interesting because to me,it was it was funny.
I'll give you a really quick story.
What happened was I didn't thinkI was going to change the name.
And then I happened to be in Londonand hanging out with a friend of mine

(01:02:43):
who's also a coach and,and someone else, a friend of hers.
And we're, like, spitballing on the idea.
And I was like, explaining,like what I want this podcast to be.
And really, it was like when I was like,oh, I want it to be, like, creative,
but spiritualand like all these different things.
And, her friend was like, in thesethe word flow.
Because if you think about flow,it's like creative flow, like, you know,

(01:03:08):
there's so many ways like flow states,like going with the flow,
like I just love that wordso much, like yoga flow.
And then to me it's like permissionis it's so much of like to me,
a lot of what we struggle withis giving ourselves permission.
So it's not about the influenceof everyone else.

(01:03:28):
It's more like,how can we allow ourselves to be in flow?
How can we allowthe good things to come in and and feel,
you know, and not get caught upin like the shoulds and the half truths
and so that's whyit became permission to flow.
That's the short answerI love that, no, that's so beautiful.
And it's such a good like, catch therebecause I see exactly

(01:03:51):
what she was saying about how flow is likecreativity and spirituality.
Okay.
All right,so let's dive into our final questions
so you can get on to your electricianand all the things that are going
on in your life.
Thank you.
All right.
So first question is how would you describe your current relationship to yourself.
Now that is a that's a great question.

(01:04:13):
I really have to pause and think about it,because I think
so much has changedsince, like becoming a father.
And I think beforeI was very into journaling
and I've always hada very strong relationship with myself,
you know, meditation very muchjust enjoying my own thoughts,
like just being able to sit with myselfand like, just entertaining myself
through my own thought patterns processand like, just observing.

(01:04:36):
And I'm trying to go deep.
Recently,I haven't had as much time with that,
but I would say I definitely love myselfvery strongly and
I should spend more time with myself.
Like, I'll tell you actually,oh my God, this is something
I think people need to do.
And when I tell my friends that, like,whatever, there's a bit of,
I have a bit of a vainkind of streak to me, like,
like, you know, amongst my friends,I'm like the vain one. But,

(01:05:00):
last year I started celebratingbirthday week,
and I would do, like, a whole week,with, like, to celebrate my birthday.
Just, you know, the, the whole week.
And one of the things that I didwas I celebrated a whole day with myself,
just, like, just myself.
So I went, yeah,I went to a Broadway show.
I went to a restaurant. I went to a bar.
I went to another restaurant.

(01:05:21):
It's like just the whole day.
Just totally with myself, like,just celebrating.
And I had the best timeever. The best time.
So I, I genuinely like I love myself,I love being able
to just spend time with myselfand, you know, stuff like that.
But and I love other people too.
And I love spend time with other people.
But yeah, I would say my relationshipwith myself, the strong
I love that side though, is thatI didn't do a whole week, but I did like

(01:05:44):
two days of celebration and one daywas just my celebration by myself.
Oh, I love that. Very similar.
So I thought is so funny that you saythat.
Yeah, I mean, I spent minetotally differently, but like, I was like
eating and like doing my own thing andI was just like, everyone leave me alone.
Like, I had like a very, like,personal little day because.
Yeah.
And then like my,
like, I had another day where I was likefull celebration with everyone else.

(01:06:07):
But I was like, I got to, like, enjoythe experience of, like, having my own,
like, celebration.So I love that. I love that so much.
Thank you so much I love that.
That's right.
All right.
Your next question is what is somethingthat you are currently working on.
And this could be like physically ormentally whatever way you want to take it.
Now that's a good question.I'm working on building this studio.

(01:06:29):
I had this room here in thein the basement of a house that I'm
that I'm renting, like an apartment,this two family house.
So I have this room that I'm like,turning into a studio.
So I've been painting it.
I had to do so much work in this thing.
Oh, my God, it's it's been taking mea lot longer than I thought it would, but,
Yeah, that's mythat's my project right now.
Just building the studio space.
I love it, I love it.

(01:06:50):
All right.
What do you consider most valuable to you?
My daughter?
Like, by far, there's like,nothing even in comparison, but
like, as anything, literally,like I would.
I would die for herlike a, like a thousand times.
Like literally just there's like,no comparison,
you know, like, like, not only that,I don't think there's anything

(01:07:11):
but it could ever be consideredmeaningful relative to that, you know,
yeah.
That's beautiful, I love that.
Yeah.
What is the best lessonyou've learned recently?
Or it could be your favorite lesson.
My favorite lesson?
My favorite lesson is this, when I was 16.

(01:07:33):
Okay.
This is can I get into a storyactually called religion?
I'm never going to say no.
Yeah, when I was in high school.
Okay.This is going to sound so sad right now.
I never readI never read a book until I was 16.
The first book I ever readfrom cover to cover was when I was 16,
and I thought I was, like, proud of that.
I was so proud of that.
And as in summer camp and my friend,

(01:07:57):
shout out to him,
he's, he I, he's like a huge bookworm.
He, like, reads like,literally a book a day.
He'll he's he's massive. Like,he loves reading.
You'll just literally read forever.
But basically
I told him I was like, hey, give me a bookthat you think I would enjoy.
So he hands methis book Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson,
because I realized I was like, hey,
wait a second, what if I'm all proud of mebeing like, never having read a book?

(01:08:18):
And meanwhile, I'm the dumb one, you know,I was like, you know what?
That's changing today.
So he has me this book Mistborn by BrandonSanderson, and it's the 652 page book.
And I look at it and I'm like,I will read this book cover to cover.
I don't care how bad it is, how boring.
Like, I will read this book just to proveto myself that I can, you know,
but anyways, I started reading this book.

(01:08:39):
It was amazing.
It was the best book I butit's still my favorite book to this day.
I love this book.
It's it's it's a brilliant, brilliant,brilliant book.
But basicallywithout trying to get into a spoiler,
one of the main character'sname is Kelsey,
and the other main character name is Venn.
Then has massive trust issues.
She grew up very like,

(01:08:59):
tortured and abused and all that massive,massive, massive trust issues.
Kelsey is this, like, badass,like just awesome leader.
He's like really brilliant,like mastermind kind of person.
And basically Kelseywas betrayed by his wife.
Like, this is something that like part of,like the background in the book,
he was betrayed by his wifeand then was like, then who?

(01:09:21):
This girl was like and like, he's symbollike this amazing team, you know?
And everyone trust him.Everyone loves him.
And then as in, like,how do you trust anybody?
I think, why do you love people?
Like, you've been betrayedand and all that.
And Kelsey is just like,given the choice of loving mayor.
Mayor was his wife's namegiven given the choice of loving mayor.
And like betrayal, includedand never knowing her

(01:09:44):
I which was left, you know and that to meI think it's kind of a cliche.
It's not likeI don't think he made up that concept,
but I think that to meis like a very beautiful lesson
that for some reason came to my mind whenyou asked me what my favorite lesson is.
But yeah, I think it's
so important to continue to get back updespite us being hurt and heartbroken,
to be able to love again and trust againand and be okay, you know,

(01:10:07):
be happy, give ourselves permissionto be happy and permission to flow.
Absolutely. That's beautiful.
I love that itit makes me think of like just how
it's like all the good.
It's like we take the good with the badthat comes with it, but it like,
it's still worth it at the end of the dayis kind of what it sounds like.
Yes yes yes yes exactly.

(01:10:28):
Exactly. It's it's still worth itat the end of the day.
Like there's a lot of badand there's a lot of good.
And being able to like, have that paradigmwhere you're really maximizing the good,
you know. Yeah.
Absolutely beautiful.
Beautiful story and lesson.
Thank you. Okay.
Your last question, which I'm very curiouswhat your answer is going to be this.
But what do you seeas the purpose or meaning of life.

(01:10:51):
Wow okay.
Broad question.
I could answer for like myself,
but I think more generallyif if we're thinking like,
what is the purpose or meaning of life,I genuinely think it's, it's just
it's just to be, you know, like
I my kind of philosophyis that we're all extensions of God.

(01:11:13):
You know, we're we're part of whateverthis universe slash infinity is like.
We're all connect.
We're obviously like,
we can obviously understand that we'rewe are physically a part of the universe.
You know, our cells and our atoms are made
from the same stuffthat everything else is.
But whatever came from the Big Bangor whatever you want, I believe.
But it's all just,you know, we came from matter
and we're going to die
and we're going to come back

(01:11:33):
into the earth and perhaps our soul, whichmight be separated from physical matter,
who knows?
It's connected to something as well.
And I genuinely do think we're
we're this extension of whateveris infinite in this universe. And,
and I thinkwe're here just, just it's entertaining,
you know, it's like fun,being a part of it for the good and bad.
And I think everything is meaningful,even the most mundane things.

(01:11:54):
So, like, what's the purpose of it?
Part of it is just like,enjoy the ride, enjoy the journey.
Part of it is like, yeah, probablywe do have some type of bigger calling
that we should probably doand some type of purpose
that that was meant for us, some type of,I guess, karma, if you want to call it.
I've just been reflecting on the factthat we're called human beings
and the word being in there of like,how can we just be?

(01:12:15):
It's just so I feel like that'swhat you're speaking to of,
like just being in, inthis whatever this universal
creation that we're a part of.
So I love that answer.
That's awesome.Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much.
Go subscribe to Jessica's channeland call her for coaching.
And then come over to my channeland subscribe as well.
All right. Handsome lately. Yeah.

(01:12:36):
So please share how people can contact youif they want to learn more.
Yeah, sure.
So my Instagram is a journey with Gabby.
You could see me thereand then my YouTube channel is Gabby.
Kind of.
I have my podcast plus YouTube videos,which I've not been posting in a while,
but will continue to be postingYouTube videos once my studio is finished.
And then you could go on my website,the Men's Therapy studio, to book

(01:12:57):
a session and I accept many insurancesso you can see me for as little
as free to, copay of whatever, 50 bucks,whatever it is.
Yeah, amazing.
Well, definitely go and subscribeto Gabby's YouTube podcast,
everything and, and go and work with himbecause he is amazing.
So thank you so,so much for coming on the show.
It's been such a pleasuregetting to have these, like,

(01:13:19):
incredible conversations with you.
And it's yeah, I love this.
So thank you so,so much for coming on the show.
Okay. Yeah, of course.
And thank you for having me. I'mso grateful.
And let's let's do something againsoon, you know?
Absolutely.
I hope to see youat more podcasting events and everything.
And keep growing our channels together.
It's it's.Yeah. So fun. Yeah. This has been awesome.

(01:13:41):
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and strategies with you,just like the ones you heard today.
Remember, the power to create the lifeyou desire resides within you,
and I'm here to support youevery step of the way.
The world needs what you will create.

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059 - Navigating Identity: Gabi Koyenov's Path from Theology to Therapy

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}059 - Navigating Identity: Gabi Koyenov's Path from Theology to Therapy