Pill Pod 225 - Lacan on the Pervert

The Pill Pod looks at the structure of the perverts in Episode 5 of our series on Lacan. Find the other episodes at https://www.patreon.com/plasticpills

Sources:
Jacques Lacan - Seminar X, "The Subversion of the Subject and the Dialectic of Desire in the Freudian Unconscious", Ecrits
Bruce Fink - Clinical Introduction to Lacanian Psychoanalysis

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello, Hello, Hey, Hey, that's my job. Hello, hey stealing?
Who's a pervert? We're pointing fingers right here? All right,
we all are. We're doing lacan again. The last time
we were together it was lacan psychosis, and this is

(00:28):
the other What do you call it abnormal?

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Without being Yeah, we could say that the reality it's
not it's not it's probably not even I mean it's
I would say I would guess that neurotics are not
just a plurality, but they're probably the majority.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would imagine neurotics or the majority.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
To be a neurotic means you go through two steps.
To be a psychotic means you don't come through steps,
and the pervert goes through one step, stuck in the middle.
Psychotics are a little bit alien. They're kind of like
frightening because you don't really know what's going on there.
But perverts are kind of fun. I feel like, I

(01:07):
don't know that I know any Lacinian perverts, but this
seems like they're kind of fun.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
People had to tell I feel like to know, maybe
you'd have to know about I mean, I think there
are obviously other sons, but I mean, if you know it,
Like if you have a good friend and you know
their sex lives in detail, maybe that would be a hint.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
I mean, at least for Freud, it's they're obvious things
like fetishism, right, like people having foot fetishes or fetishes
for berries and things.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
But although like sadomasochistic, like I think you can still
be neurotic and be into those things. Also, that's the
other thing.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, you can do you can do perverted things while
being neurotic. This is the structure and go again. The
thing you're not supposed to do with psychoanalysis is point
at people and say, oh, this guy's a pervert for sure, So.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
We're going to do that. But we are going to
do that.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
I was not going to say, well, Steven Miller is
for sure a pervert.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, I mean I think we're gonna we're gonna do
it by saying we're not doing it, being like, well,
you know, we're not supposed to do this, but like,
here's the here's maybe the evidence. At least I have,
like a kid, like I have a bit of a
case to make for like Trump, But we can do
that later.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
There's the sense in which we're all I.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
Mean, I have a case. I know what the case is.
I can give it. I can give an account for it.
I don't actually necessarily think he is, but I can.
I can certainly. I think I can give a like
an account of why people could read him that way.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yeah, like the sexy things with Trump, or like the
grab him by the pussy thing and the stormy Daniels thing,
like there's not and and now the all the Epstein
stuff too, like so.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
Let's save that though. Yeah, but we should get that,
we should get the different.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
Evidence the armchair psycho analyze with, well it's more than that.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's the normal. We should make this distinction. Yes,
the normal distinction of being a pervert means weird sex stuff. Yeah,
and this includes weird sex stuff, but it doesn't necessarily
include where it's sex. This is a symbolic arrangement to
be a proper qui structural.

Speaker 4 (03:07):
I saw that Freud divides it. Freud's always so simple
compared to Lacana, Like he divides it into there's like
your sexual object, like what you the object of sexual desire,
and then there's the sexual aim, so like the method
about which you go to obtain gratification, and both of
those can be I guess like those can diverge from

(03:30):
the norm that's the language Freud would use, and they
can also like not be aimed at the whole person.
So like a sexual object could be like a part
like a and and it could also be like a
non human thing like buttons for example, or it could
be a part of a person like feet or something
like that too, So you have like the fetish for

(03:52):
parts of people and like, yeah, so those would be
sexual objects. And then I don't know about sexual aims.
I guess that could be more are associated with sadism
and masochism, because that's like you get the sexual pleasure
from non sexual acts, acts that aren't focused on like
the genitals and things.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, there's the when you when you metaphorize perverts, it
can be a lot of things. I was doing some
back research for this on what like people say about perversion,
and a lot go with what jik says. And I'm
gonna I'm not I'm not the biggest Lacan guy that
there ever was, but I'm gonna say I'm pretty sure

(04:31):
that Jijak spreading misinformation on perverts, not least making those
movies called perverts Guide. There's nothing to do. Yeah, there's
nothing to do with Lacanian perversion that has to do
with those I'm not sure why they're called that.

Speaker 4 (04:45):
Another thing that was wondering about that, Yeah, yeah, the
perverts guide thing.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, he was. He was talking about terrorism and there's
like a Dutch filmmaker that got shot, not are stabbed.
You remember it, we were like young. It was a
long time ago.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
He commented on this and said, like there's a you
could a terrorist has a perverted or may have a
perverted structure because they become in their mind the instrument
of the law like God or i'llah, whatever you're doing. Now,
this this doesn't really actually fit because if you're if

(05:23):
you're like if you're a religious nut, if you are
a zealot willing to go out and commit an act
of public violence, that's not actually being an object in
this in this algebra, because you're going out and taking
agency on yourself. Because the pervert being an object is
not like I'm going to go I'm not going to

(05:44):
go kill someone for God. It's more like I'm gonna
be God's dildo, you know, like actually actually an object.
But we're going to get into this structure. Maybe we
can figure out what this means. Maybe we can get
into some case studies because those are why. But yeah,
what do you think we should start with here?

Speaker 3 (06:03):
We should probably describe the structure of the underlying structure
and formation of the pervert and then kind of talk
about how it applies, because I think if we start
I think it can be very confusing if we start
saying like, oh, this fetish or this whatever, because it's
like unless you understand the underlying structure, Because like I
said before, you can definitely be a neurotic and have

(06:23):
those kinds of perversions. Right, It's really more the structure
like then than like just being really into like a
foot fetish or something like that, right, or a button fetish.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, and you can have also fetishes and not necessarily
be a pervert. This is like a truly compulsive fetish,
not like you know, I like fucking around with ropes.
It's like I need I need a rope around my
neck to come that kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
Yeah, exactly exactly, So maybe we should start with the
underlying structure. And I was also going to say, I did,
like just quickly when you were when you were talking there,
I was like, maybe, well we can talk about this afterwards,
but I think there might actually your reason that fits
for why you should have caused his movies a perverts guide.
But anyway, well we can save that.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Maybe it wasn't him who called them that it could.

Speaker 4 (07:07):
Be could have been an editorial decision to.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Be the director. Can I actually just start with an example.
I know you guys didn't read this, so I'm really sorry,
but if I can tell you the story of one
particular pervert, then maybe we can relate back to it.
And that's a structure. The structure will make more sense
than saying a over barred, a over disavowal and d
that comes in. Yeah, but it's a true case done

(07:32):
by a psychoanalyst. And if you want the source, i'll
send it to you later. But this is the description
of the perversion. This is a Lacanian analyst and a
Lacanian version of the perverts. So we're not dealing with
Freudian or Klein or whoever else deals with perverts. Right,
So the subject is a guy who's working at his

(07:53):
job and he does this frequently. Okay, he has to
do this, so it's a compulsion. He leaves the store
where he's the manager, as though he's going on a
business errand in his car and I'm going to be quoting.
He changes his route so that it takes him through
a residential neighborhood and looks for a barber shop in
which there is only one barber. The barber has to

(08:15):
conform to a certain pre selected type. He must not
be lean, must not have long hair, etc. When the
patient finds this shop, he returns there a couple of times,
unless he becomes afraid that the barber suspects something. In
a state of anxiety, there's a key term, so he's
in a state of anxiety. He enters the barber shop,

(08:37):
sits in the chair, and asks to be shaved. He
sensed pleasurable excitement and anticipated relief as the barber draped
the sheet around him, adjusted the towels, and arranged the
position of the chair. When the barber was almost finished
shaving him, he would rub his hand over his face
and complain that it was not smooth enough. The barber

(08:59):
would then relather and reshave him again. This continues. He
continues again, says it's not smooth enough. This happens more
than once several times. He would then notice that the
barber was becoming annoyed and started breathing heavily with the
barber's increasing annoyance. This is this is key. With the

(09:19):
barber's increasing annoyance and his heavy breathing as he repeatedly
had to draw his razor over his neck again and
again and again, he would have an erection and ejaculate
in his clothes under the barber sheet. Then he would
pay the barber and leave. So, yeah, he's pestering poor barbers,

(09:41):
roams the neighborhood stocks looking for one barber who's a target,
makes him shave him four or five times, then comes
in his jeans and goes back to work. And again
he asked, he has to do it this way. This
is this is the way that he's going to come
if he's going to right.

Speaker 4 (09:59):
So that definitely fits what we would think of as perversion,
is like, that's a weird way to get off.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, and interestingly it may not be a parent on
the surface, but this is actually a sadist. So there
are masochists, there are sadists what we call in our
culture sado masochism, but joining them together that is impossible.
In the Lacinian formula, you're either a sadist or a

(10:27):
masochist and also a fetishist.

Speaker 4 (10:31):
But they're also not opposites. They're not like inversions of
one another. They're both.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
They're both perverse structures. They can't they can't actually go together.
What is that stupid show Fifty Shades of Gray? Is
that a Is that like a masochist with a sadist?
I forgot, I'm asking the wrong people, But I think
if I recall correctly, that's a masochist and a sadist,
and they go well together because they complement each other.

(10:56):
That's not in That's not how it goes in real life, because.

Speaker 4 (11:00):
The sadist wants to cause anxiety and like someone else.
I think maybe maybe that like repetition of the shave, but.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
I think so does the masochist. Like that's why they're
actually similar, because I think the masochist also wants to
like make like because the mascist is kind of like
demanding that the other person kind of impose some kind
of law on them. Yeah, right, Like they both actually
weirdly want That's why they're not opposites, right, because I
think they like Weirdly both have a similar like, well

(11:30):
I know that that for the for the masochists, right,
like they kind of act like, oh, they're doing it
for the other person's pleasure, right, They're like, oh, I
want you to like do something to me, and I
want to be this object for you. But that's actually
like kind of a phony impulse. It's really about their
own enjoyment. Uh, it's not really about the others.

Speaker 4 (11:49):
Yeah, there's like the fantasy part, Like so Lacan's like
three registers helps, right, like imaginary symbolic real and and
for and so this symbolic is the thing that the
pervert has trouble getting to. Like the symbolic is when
you fully go through separation like the neurotic, then you
get to this symbolic, that symbolic castration. The pervert doesn't

(12:14):
go through that. So in yeah, in the imaginary they're like, yes,
I'm all for the other person, but in reality they
want to like make the law real, and so they're
I guess the limits of their tolerance becomes like the
real limit, and then the fantasy that supports it is

(12:35):
like no, I'm giving myself to this person, like I'm
I'm totally trying to give this person like the pleasure
of whatever watching my pain. So there's that that the
registers comes into play. Yeah, I think you're describing it
pretty much right there.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, the guy in the barber chair who comes under
the under the barber beb his limit like you just said,
you said the words, the limit is the real. The
limit is the real because he eventually just really ejaculates. Yeah,
the symbolic, but he has to. This is another interesting
thing about the pervert is they have to set up
this whole scenario and repeat the scenario, so you have

(13:16):
different different fantasies in this. In this case of the
barber one, the analyst went back to childhood and it
goes back to like seeing pigs be slaughtered by getting
their throats cut at at the same time as he
was being forced in private school to learn how to
speak like a like a native pole instead of speak

(13:38):
with a Jewish accent. So there's that all the stealing
of the voice, which is the agency of the subject,
and then that being displaced onto the pigs getting their
throat cut and the sadistic element. I know we think
of sadistic like oh yeah, you're burning people with cigarettes like,
that's not the guy the forcing the barber to continue

(13:59):
to shave you. You until the barber gets upset and
it starts getting annoyed and starts getting like, come come on,
what the fuck are you doing? That's pushing up against
the limit, and that limit pushing is what perverts do
to get pleasure. Yeah, the neurotics, basically, we're obsessed with
the limits. We know where they are, where we push

(14:20):
them as kids. Then we find out where they are,
and then we're horrified when other people push them, push
the limits when they're around us.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, what you said there. Yeah. The massachist wants
to make this other person this, this person involved in
their masochism, this says, bring them to the point of
enunciating a law, pronouncing a sentence, sometimes by generating anxiety
in them. And yeah, so maybe like the barber just

(14:48):
saying okay, like that's enough. What the hell is going
on here? You're crazy? Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly, so achieved.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
They want to hear that that's enough, because they don't
hear inside their own head, right, Neurotics always hear Okay,
that's enough. We tell ourselves that's enough. They don't hear that.

Speaker 4 (15:07):
Part because the neurotic can channel it into language, right,
and Leacn says juwiysance is prohibited to whom whoever speaks,
So that that would suggest like symbolic castration. You know
you you've you've gone from you've gone from alienation through separation,

(15:30):
symbolic castration. Now desire has been given a name and
is fully integrated into the symbolic, which can be you know,
manipulated through speech. You have the object of desire can
now be displaced from signify or to signify. You have
the chain of signification in play. For the pervert, they're

(15:51):
they're not really there. They're like sort of staging that transition,
but yeah, they can't do it in the symbolic like yeah,
prohibited to speech.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
Well, I think an important concept that comes up here
is disavowal. Freud discussing how boys who sometimes when they
perceive a girl's genitals they like deny the absence of
a penis while simultaneously registering it, so like it's it's
like a weird pair. That's this is where that paradoxical
stance comes in of like I know very well but
all the same. So it's like both denying and registering

(16:25):
it at some level. And whereas like in repression, which
is I think what happens to the to the neurotic
an impulse or thought, it's a kind of like pushed
into the unconscious and then returns like it kind of distorted,
but like disavowal, it's like something is both acknowledged and denied.

(16:45):
And I think like that that then like kind of
sets the stage that has to do with like how
the the like paternal metaphor is is like is like
kind of not not absorbed in the same way as
as in as in as in neurosis. But I feel
like I lost my train of thought there, so let me.

Speaker 4 (17:04):
Yeah, the example here is the little boy sees the
sees his sister naked and says, oh, she has a
small we wi and like, yeah, he's because that's what disavowal. Yeah,
Fink says, like disavowal or Freud's word for for llougnung,
would actually be better translated as as denial, and it's

(17:25):
actually in French it's translated as denis, which is close
to denial. So we say disavowal. It's this fancy word
like to avow something is to swear swear it like
I vow you know, I avow this, you know you
acknowledge it in a strong sense. But to disavow as
to yeah, like unswear to say i'd swear I didn't

(17:47):
see it. Yeah, And the funny thing is to say
I swear that it's not there is a weird thing
because something can't be absent unless there's already a symbol
all like grid that prepares it, like the example of
like you can't just walk into a library point in
an empty space and be like a book is missing.

(18:08):
You have to there has to be like a Dewey
decimal system indicating that there should be a book there.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yeah, and this and then this way. Like so there
is alienation that occurs right in language because there's still
like some partial naming. But I think it's like the
thing that doesn't happen is like separation. And I think
this is where he talks about like how the father's
law is acknowledged only partially, right, So it's like the
pervert knows the father has not imposed full castration, but

(18:35):
stages it through others. So like that's where like the
staging comes in. So it's like because whereas obviously in
the in the neurotic both things happen, and then obviously
in the psychotic like not basically none of it happens.
Although some alienation happens, but like it's not really it's
it's it doesn't really like fully happen. So then this
is where like I guess the the the desire or

(18:58):
the need to like stage things age law because it's
like the full castration of the of the name of
the father hasn't occurred, So like there's some kind of
a drive towards like staging something that is imposing law.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, we are, I keep saying we neurotics. Neurotics kind
of understand this stuff metaphorically, but the perverts have to
do it with like physical scenarios almost. That's why you
get That's why you get leather and whipped in chains
and buttons and whatever the whatever the displacement comes onto

(19:33):
or I have to go around and find a find
a poor barber to pester.

Speaker 4 (19:39):
Yeah, they have to force a limit somehow, they have
to force a limit to emerge.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Instead of the symbolism and the metaphoric turn happening inside
your head, it kind of happens in real life.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, And also it's interesting because I think this also
has to do with like kind of the relationship to
tow juissance to like an imaginary and the imaginary fallus,
meaning like the penis as pleasure or something like that,
like as versus like symbolic fallus, and like I think
in the neurotic the like there's an exchange where like

(20:15):
the neurotic renounces this kind of pleasure, like this material
like or rather imaginary pleasure, like so the imaginary fallus
and exchanges it for the symbolic fallus. So neurotics are
much more interested. And by when I say symbolic fallus,
I mean like social recognition, self esteem, like being seen

(20:36):
by others is having value, so you're kind of exchanging
it and you're like, okay, well, like I will repress
my like embodied pleasures in a way because I want
to participate in this society where like other people are
going to see me as like valuable and contributing to
this society. But the pervert like refuses basically that sacrifice,
won't hand over their imaginary juissance. They're like imaginary fallis,

(21:01):
And I think, like that's that's like where there's like
as as pills was just saying, like, we can think
about it, but it's like we can kind of imagine
that sort of, but it's like the urge, the drive
to just like enact these scenarios is very much like
at the level like I guess of like the image
like imaginary like trying to achieve this kind of pleasure

(21:22):
sort of the way that I understood it.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yeah, so the neurotic, if the neurotics walking down the street,
it's a hot day and there's a there's this there's
a fine just a dime walking towards him, and she
she's curvy, she's got one of those dresses, you know,
the dresses that are made from that like the sweater material,
so they're really there, form fitting, they're elasticky. It's hugging

(21:46):
her curves. And if she's she's walking towards you, and
you know, you know that on the other side of that,
there's an ass to match just rolling around rolling around
in that dress. But as a neurotic, you know that
you can't turn to look because there are other people around. Yes, yes,
this did have a point. There's other people around, and

(22:08):
if they see that, your head's on a swivel. As
soon as she walks past, then they're gonna they're gonna
judge you, So you're gonna look like a creep. Your
esteem comes from repressing swiveling around and checking out those
beach balls that are bouncing around in there. And you're
gonna keep your head forward, or you're gonna try to

(22:29):
try to look in the reflection of a store window
or something like that. You're gonna try to not get
caught because you know that this is that the the
law is worth following here. But the the pervert, this
is this is kind of a bad example because this
is not necessarily gonna get the pervert off, But the
perver won't. The perver won't care. The pervert's gonna swim

(22:50):
around or swing around. He's gonna say, girl, I want
to eat Thanksgiving dinner off that ass he wants actually,
or depending on the type of perfect but he could
want to provoke anxiety in her and get off on
the anxiety provoked there.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
Or I wonder, I wonder if if we okay we neurotics, Yeah,
I wonder, because we all have a basic.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
Level of per Maybe one of you is a pervert.
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
Maybe we'll see but I think since we all do
have a level we all okay, I'll volunteer, No, we
all have a basic level of perversion, right, So maybe
that's why we all enjoy that meme with the guy
checking out the girl and then the girl looking at
the guy really angrily because she's obviously like his girlfriend

(23:36):
or something, and he's just like openly oggling some girl
that has just walked past. And we have so much
fun with that meme, right, We put like the heads
of companies and things on it and we play with
it all the time. But we all have that like
but the neurotic again, you can see it in the
symbolic there as a meme, but we all enjoy it

(23:58):
because it's like a basic like perversion thing, right because
like Freud says, children like young children are all polymorphous perverts, right,
Like masturbation is the basic one of the basic things, right,
Like the father comes along or someone comes along and says, like,
you know, stop masturbating your your the father is going

(24:19):
to cut your penis off if you continue to do that,
so stop.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
And if I had a.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
Pervert that yeah, of course, and so the neurotic will
you know, make that sacrifice the neurotic will, but the
pervert will refuse to make that sacrifice. Will keep the pleasure, right, won't,
won't give it up like saying this is my pleasure
and I'm not giving it over to the I'm not

(24:44):
giving it over. So they don't like accept the law
of the father on a symbolic level.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
And that's why no, no, go, go go ahead and say
the family.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
I was just gonna say the family. The family looking
structure of this is again it's not like prescriptive, but
if it happens, it's usually something like overbearing mother, absentee father,
the father doesn't the father or the father function doesn't
show up enough. Yeah, exactly to separate my ego from

(25:17):
my mama.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
To set the law, to set the limits, like in
the case study in the chapter that we read limit, Yeah,
in the in the case study. Uh, there's a case
study in the chapter of the Pinks book. And uh,
it's like about like someone who has a very overbearing
mother who almost treats him like a source of her pleasure,
like I mean talks about I think in analysis he

(25:40):
talked about feeling like his mother was using him as
a dildo, which is like really disturbing. But you know,
I'm not like so so and then and and like
and I think he would often be with her as
a child when she'd be getting undressed and he would
see her naked all the time, and she'd kind of
give him little pet names like my little my little
button or whatever.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
And uh, and she didn't actually sexually abuse him, I think.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
No, no, no, no, it was just like it was just
it's just like just how he felt. Yeah, just just
really overbearing who like had him at her side like
the whole time in ways that it's not like actual
sexual abuse, but it's just like suggestive and like kind
of weird. She's just there all the time, and because
he's a child, he's like seeing her naked and having
weird feelings and she's kind of setting the tone of

(26:23):
like how he feels about things in the way that
they name things.

Speaker 4 (26:26):
And I think and Alison even recalled getting off at
one point during the changing routine.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
Maybe yeah, there's like maybe some weird sexual feelings there
that like as a child, it's like there and it
all mixed up.

Speaker 4 (26:38):
But barber chair friends, like the kids started getting off
with it.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
I wouldn't. I don't know if I would go that far,
because like this is I mean, he's talking about being
a child around age six five six, so this is
like it would be like very nascent kind of you know,
like rumblings of like libido, right that like weird feelings,
you know. But I guess what I wanted to get
to was like the father is kind of absent, like

(27:03):
like around but not really around. But how there's like
a crucial memory he has when he had appendicitis as
a child and he woke up and he remembered seeing
his father kind of smiling at him, looking at him
and saying like, oh, I've got your appendix here like
in my hand. And how like this was supposedly in
this case study, a pivotal moment where like I guess

(27:24):
he was prevented from being a psychotic. That that is
like a key moment in that case study of like
at least acknowledging that like the father's there and is
like I guess aware, but hasn't fully instituted, like the
law of the father, the name of the father.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
When I read these, when I read these freaking psychoanalysis books,
they always have like the perfect.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
I know, I know, I thought the same thing to
his dad.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
Has a jar with his organ in it, and this
represents the know of the father, Like, how the hell
does this stuff really happen?

Speaker 4 (27:54):
The appendix becomes like the the your dick's floating.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
There's like I'm gonna I'm gonna castrate you. And suddenly
he's not a psycho.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
Yeah, here it is, I have, I have, I have,
I have the exact I have the exact quote. It says.

Speaker 4 (28:06):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
He wakes up to the site of his father holding
Jean's appendix in a jar or Jean Jean's appendix in
a jar, smiling radiantly at the excised organ. Jean never
again plays along with his mother's treatments, right, refusing henceforth
to be the penis for her with his whole body,
with his entire being. The father's presence at his bedside

(28:28):
and approval of the organ removal seems to finally bring
about a kind of displaced circumcision or or lost symbolizing castration,
a first division or alienation between Jean and his mother.
So the father bars or cancels out the mother here
in the sense briefly described earlier.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, so if I was writing a novel, if I
was writing a novel about castraight symbolic castration, it wouldn't
even be that on the nose. And I know it
so happened.

Speaker 3 (28:56):
Yeah, And he goes on to talk about Jean's mother,
you know, continues to view Jean's quote my little man,
and lets him know that his penis is inadequate to
give for everything she needs. She refers to his penis
as tom petit boo your little end, or bit the
little suggesting too little. Often, however, she simply calls it
tomboo your end, So like she's still like doing these weird,

(29:19):
like playfully things that are like, you know, not exactly
child abuse, but just kind of bizarre behaviors that are
like overbearing.

Speaker 4 (29:27):
Yeah, and then the second phase of that and then
this is where you know, separation interrupted, right, like where
the pervert structure kind of solidifies. Is that then the
father he the the analys and there recalls overhearing the
father refer to buttons, which sounds very much like you know,

(29:49):
the French for like, what was it tomboo your your end,
your little penis thing? And then and then and then
always that backwards, And he wasn't but he thought that
the father was referring to the to the mother's genitals
with bhutan, and so then he developed this fetish for
buttons as a way of supplementing the name of the father.

(30:14):
The father naming the mother's desire in this case, but
because it's a case of perversion, that name didn't like.
It wasn't a full naming, it was ambiguous. The child
wasn't sure, and you know this is kind of like okay,
So the father does that, and then now the more
buttons the better for this guy. Now he chases women

(30:36):
who wear like clothes with like rows of buttons, and
the more buttons the better, And this becomes a way
of supplementing the name of the father and like staging
that separation that I guess was interrupted or wasn't completed
because the father, the type of father Freud had in mind,

(30:59):
was the father who like forcefully tries to separate the
boy from the mother, and maybe something goes wrong in that,
you know, behind the father's back, the mother keeps winking
at the father or the child and the child mother
connection kind of stays intact and isn't fully separated. And
but it's this forceful father and the pervert refuses to

(31:21):
give up the separate to separate, but then think is
like now, but we now need to we should focus
on this like contemporary father who is like a weaker
figure than this forceful father. Maybe you know one of
those like fathers who's kind of progressive and doesn't think that.
They don't want to be the authoritarian. Yeah, they don't

(31:43):
want to be the.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Back in the day, we didn't have so many perverts
because we drank from the hose.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
They want to be liked.

Speaker 4 (31:48):
They don't want to be the one who does the punishment.
They like want to be this like nice guy friends
with the kid, not like the authority figure.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
I mean, it kind of makes sense that there'd be
less that there'd be less perverts in like a more
authoritarian father culture.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
He describes them, but he describes them so negative. I
don't know the weaker figure and is often confused about
his role as a father or the or like the
weaker and indifferent father or something like that. This like
different focus.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
I don't know. It's at least helped sounds like James Dobson.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
Bullshit, it's James Dobson. I don't even know who that is.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
He's a Christian guy who says you should beat your kids.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
I mean, look, I I obviously I definitely think. Uh,
don't you think it kind of makes sense though, Like
if this is like obviously, if if this is like
how perversion forms, like, wouldn't it make sense where like
when social customs were stronger and more universally like obeyed,
and that fathers were more authoritarian, that there'd be like

(32:48):
fewer perverts. I don't know. That just kind of makes
makes sense.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
Now, how come on? Like, the problem is the mother
is showing not even acknowledging the father at all. As
soon as her son's born, she's like full on obsessed
with her son. He's an only child. That's another problem. Yeah,
I'm being natalist. You gotta have you got to have
more kids so your kids aren't perverts.

Speaker 4 (33:07):
But in the state, paternal function is the problem.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
This this bouton thing, the button thing. The the name
of the father. We usually think of it correctly as
you know the father, Your father's going to come home,
so we name him. But in this case, the name
of the father, the father gives name to the mother's
absence of a penis, so he names her Lac and
he names it button. So this guy now has a

(33:33):
fetish for buttons, because the more buttons he's got around him,
the less likely his overbearing mother is to absorb him
into well.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
Amusingly too, he actually finds the appearance of a single
button quite disturbing, actually, so specifically it has to be
like and the more it's like a series of buttons
all sewed together like a cross, He's like, that's that
really does it for him.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
I find this part of psychoanalysis so fast because just
the tom and backwards is Bouton, and then Bouton in
his unconscious becomes attached to real buttons like words. Words
here are real life, which is kind of the thing
that we can't really understand anymore, but that the fact

(34:18):
that this can happen, it's still it's my favorite part
of these examples because it's fascinating.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
And what was the thing in.

Speaker 4 (34:24):
The in the in the Vienna Freud movie, the tit
mouse thing, those the words just come together like that,
and the analyst has to notice these sorts of things
like yeah, Tom boot being the reversal of Bouton, Yeah,
and then do something with that.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
The examples in this in these books, they're just too good,
like how do you how do you have? This is
better than a better than a novel.

Speaker 4 (34:48):
And then there's the example of Hans, a little Hans
we mentioned as well, the kid with the fear of
the horses.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Now is because he's he's mentioned in everything, but is
he a to figure out?

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, I'm not sure.

Speaker 4 (35:02):
And there's there's a perverse structure there that's pointed out anyway,
is that in like the horse the phobia, the object
of the phobia, the horse becomes like a name of
the father, and that contributes to the separation of the
mother from child. Right, so that just like you were

(35:23):
describing with the button guy, like you know, he's refused
to be now the dildo anymore, and he's trying to
stage this separation and for some reason the paternal function
is insufficient because you know, the dad's a hippie or whatever.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
And or just absent like or just like not around much, right,
Like it's not it's not like I don't I see
your I get your concern and like there, but but yeah,
like it's not just about like it's not that politically,
it's really more just about like somehow kind of absent.

Speaker 4 (35:54):
Well, yeah, it can even be the overbearing father, yeah,
and just refuses to give up, like refuses the separation entirely.
It doesn't matter in any case the paternal function, I
mean in all of them, right, in psychosis, in perversion,
and in even in those forms of neurosis, like the

(36:15):
paternal function goes wrong somehow or it's like inadequate somehow,
And in this case it's inadequate to separate. It's inadequate
at the separation phase, and so the pervert has to
take it on themselves to stage that separation. And unlike
the neurotic, who you know, can repress, right, so saying

(36:39):
like okay, you know, I don't want to have sex
with my mother's slash, sister, slash whatever, that impulse gets
repressed or that well, the idea connected to that impulse
gets repressed, and that affect, that impulse, that instinct, that
sexual impulse gets connected to some other acceptable idea, right,

(37:00):
because the super ego judges that to be you know, unacceptable.
And so then the neurotic has different levels like that
that unacceptable idea sinks down into the unconscious and some
other the symptom appears where that affect is connected to
some more acceptable thing pervert doesn't have. That the pervert

(37:21):
has like these two contradictory things. That's this split ego
thing he refers to.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
That's also that I know very well. But all the same,
I'm going.

Speaker 4 (37:28):
To yeah, exactly, yeah, that's that that and you know
that's that's exactly talking about the fetishistic disavowal, like I
know very well that it doesn't work, but I do
it anyway kind of thing, like Gik loves that joke
about it, right, so and that and is really yeah,
that's so that is a perverse structure. And but then

(37:50):
again it's questionable whether I mean think Think opens up
this chapter on perversion saying, most clinicians do not see
many patients who can accurately be qualified. It is perverts psychoanalytic,
analytically speaking, so it's not a super common thing in
in everyday language. Yeah, everyone's a pervert. And like even

(38:13):
in freudgen terms like children are perverts, right, Like masturbation
is a perversion. It's a it's a it's a non
reproductive sexual act, which yeah, yeah, but but like an
actual genuine pervert in the psychoanalytic sense of someone having
a perverse structure and not having completed that separation phase

(38:35):
is not super common.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
No, yeah, I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
And they're hard to detect is another one.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
Hard to detect analysis very.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Hard, and a lot of the times they don't actually
need analysis to well.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
It's very it's very it's very interesting. The reason why
they're hard to detect, right, because because it has to
do with the fact that they always try to adopt
this position as filling the other's desire. So in analysis,
like the pervert will often try to stage themselves as
like somehow like yeah, exactly, being the perfect analysm, like

(39:12):
fixing the desire of the of the other, like to
be this like object that kind of plugs the lack
in the other.

Speaker 4 (39:20):
Yeah, because the analyst is supposed to position themselves as
the object, as the cause of desire, but the pervert
refuses to allow them to adopt that position. So when
the analyst is trying to just talk to them, like
do the insight therapy highlight things about their what they're

(39:42):
saying to them, the pervert doesn't want to have those insights.
The pervert doesn't want the analysts to be able to
inspire any kind of self knowledge I'm putting it in
my own words, which are probably bad ones. But that's
that's the thing. The neurotic has a much easier time
accepting the analysts, Like I guess this is transference, accepting

(40:05):
the analyst as the object a as the object cause
of desire.

Speaker 3 (40:08):
But that's the thing.

Speaker 4 (40:09):
The pervert wants to be the object ad. The pervert
wants to be the cause of desire for the analyst.
And so yeah, like you said, they will sort of
do whatever the analyst wants. They'll like go along with it,
but they'll refuse to let the analyst. They'll refuse that
transference that's supposed to happen in psychoanalysis.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
Yeah, exactly, so they Yeah, precisely, precisely. It's also interesting
the gendered thing about like he talks about how it's
diagnosed overwhelmingly in men only that like men are perverts,
and I think.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah, he says, he says virtually exclusively.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
Yeah, and he might and he kind of I think
he might have. I don't know if it's quoting if
he said this, or if he was quoting Lacan and
saying that like that men are like the weaker sex
with respect to perversion. Maybe maybe that was like in
the sense that, yeah, that that like they it's pretty much.
And the reason for that is because the mother son
bond is just like more likely to be eroticized in

(41:06):
like a in like a weird way, whereas the mother
daughter relationship, it's it's it's way less likely to be
in any way even implicitly sort of oh erotically charged
around a specific organ right, whereas like in you know,
perversions seems to be really related to like the penis
and kind of like like this weird mother son and

(41:30):
like strangeness with with the boys penis.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah, the sons, the son's much more likely to see
the father as a rival, and a daughter almost never
would see their father as a rival.

Speaker 4 (41:41):
Yeah, and the father has a much easier time apparently
separating the daughter from the mother because he.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
Just says he doesn't have to say no, she just
she's like.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
That, yeah exactly, so so like that so women so
so women are are like much more are probably almost
always going to be will neurotics or have psychosis.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Actually have an example of a female pervert though, if
you want to another fun story. The reason I looked
this up is because I wanted to, like in their
own words describe what being a pervert is like. Because
when we're dealing with the psychosis one, I was like,
how could you not know if if you did not
if you had the imaginary functioning as the symbolic, something

(42:20):
has to be constantly going wrong, wouldn't you think? So
this is I found a pervert Lacanian perfect diagnostic diagnosis
diagnosed female, also describing what it's like. So that's why I.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Found oh interesting.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
But we brought up are the one thing we haven't
brought up. We've brought up the becoming the object, and
we've brought up the no the no father, the no
nom nom no father. But this, uh, the law in
general is kind of the important the law and the
limit and the social law, and this is kind of
something that they wouldn't be able to understand, which is

(42:57):
why why all the acting out happens, Because all the
acting out is trying to find like, where's the law?
Is someone going to stop me? Is someone going to
stop me? Is like asking where's the father function? So
they exactly they can also recognize that they're looking for this,
and then in some cases, in the sadest case, they
become a pure instrument of the law, and they get

(43:21):
off on being appearance.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
To me, yeah, and like, and I think it's important
too that that like for the for the pervert, like
intellectually they obviously understand social laws, they understand, it's more
about like is it entrenched in their psyche in their psyche, right, Like.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
They know they're there, but they don't feel them.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
Like they don't feel them exactly, and that's why they're
They try to stage these scenarios where they can and actually,
like I guess one way to sort of sum it up,
it's like, you know, the mechanism is kind of disavowal
I know very well, right, But then the position is
like the pervert stages the paternal law where it's weak
or absent, so they make the law exist by putting

(43:57):
themselves in the place of the father rather than submitting
to it. Right, So they keep trying to find these
scenarios where they can find the law by basically like
being it, trying to find limits. And then they relate
to the other by trying to be the object that
plugs the other's lack. So they try that and this
often produces anxiety in the other and they kind of

(44:20):
want that rather than kind of acknowledging their own anxiety.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
That'll come up in my story here.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
Yeah, good, I want to hear the story.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Quote quote. She remarked often in this context that all
of her life she'd felt like her way of experiencing
was different from everyone else around her. She could get
very heated up, passionate and interested in people things, but
it was always transient, like it never really mattered. This

(44:48):
is a quotation from her. If only I could at
least hate someone, she said, because she felt she could not.
Her whole life had been organized around the bidimalized ego
interests rather than proper affects and feelings or object relationships.
So I found that that's the first part of it.
There's not they're kind of watching themselves do stuff instead

(45:12):
of feeling the connection to the things that she notices.
It seems like everybody else everybody else feels. So then
she goes on. But she solves this problem by finding
what her her fetish is. As all I'll read quote,
she'd always been fair to everyone but involved with nobody.

(45:36):
From all this material, it was possible to see very
clearly how throughout her life she'd been two people, one
who lived in reality, largely reactive to others, quite gay
and with a gay gay happening. This is written in
the seventies, quite gay and with a tendency to get

(45:57):
run down every now and then. And the other her
other half, who had stayed very latent and unknowable to
herself until these two affairs. So the affairs she has,
I'll just bring up one of them, because one's with
a language teacher and the others with a mechanic. And
it repeats, so it's again that that compulsion. So her

(46:19):
very theatrical affair with the with the mechanic. It's funny,
it sounds, it sounds precisely like the script to a
porn because she she goes to the mechanic, her car's
not broken, but he's looking at the car, he's looking
under the hood, and then she just starts yapping. So

(46:41):
she's yap, yep, yep, yep, yap until she can see
that he's getting annoyed. And the mechanic says, like jokingly
at first, like can you shut the fuck up, or
I'm gonna tie I'm gonna tie a rope around you,
or I'm gonna tie a gag around your mouth. And
then she goes, yeah, we'll do it, So they end
up actually doing it, and then he gags her and

(47:04):
ties her up and rapes her. I don't know what
the term for, like performance rape play. They do a
rape play, and then she keeps going back to the
mechanic like I don't know, however often she can, however
often she can get away from her husband, and every
single time they act out this little this little play.

(47:25):
So this is finally the time, the first time where
she feels like that other person who is herself, that
doesn't live in reality, that's been unknowable and latent. This
is the first time that actually feels like it's working.
I guess would be kind of the terminology, So that
would be the undiagnosed pervert to realizing you're a pervert.

(47:49):
Is you now found this thing that you need and
you actually can't get off any other way. But similar
to the other stories, this one is a masochist. But
the gagging thing is really important to the analyst who
wrote this out because you taking away your speech is

(48:09):
becoming an object and then obviously becoming the object of
juisance for the other It's the performance thing. Like I said,
it's a bad porn and then to get him to
respond to her, she has to just keep blabbering on
while he's trying to fix her car until he comes
and punishes her. So she finally gets to realize the

(48:31):
law by by this little theater play that she puts
on finding out where the line is.

Speaker 4 (48:38):
Then that something like that, that kind of fetish for
being gagged and rape play is an attempt to prop
up the paternal function to establish law, to get the
other to pronounce the law. There's the insufficient paternal function
is being propped up stage. They're imagined here, and the

(49:03):
idea is that separation, like the normal neurotic kind of
goes through for the pervert, separation is still the key
thing here and separate. There's an anxiety at play, like
separation is hard, separation is anxiety provoking, but on a
deeper level, separation is actually a huge relief. It's like,

(49:28):
you know, separation is a kind of freedom. But the
problem is you get I guess there's the pervert has
separation anxiety at the same time, and so there's there's
a working through of that anxiety by staging separation through
this propping up of the paternal function, this attempt to

(49:49):
get the other to lay down the law, this sort
of taking it into their own hands and acting it
out in this play acting kind of thing, propping up
the law and limiting jewy songs. It's funny. The neurotic
views jewey sauce as something like negative, as as something

(50:11):
The neurotic views jewy sauce as something that's not.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
Yeah, it's subversive. To have too much jewy sance is like, uh,
is uncomfortable for the neurotic, I.

Speaker 4 (50:22):
Think, and yeah, And the neurotic hears something like that
about a pervert and thinks, oh, look at how much
jewey soance the pervert has like access to.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
There's one In.

Speaker 4 (50:34):
Reality, it's very anxiety provoking the whole thing. It's not
like it's just this amazing walk in the park, Oh
my god. Perverts are just more in touch with your
sexual selves. It's not like that at all.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
So there's a way in which like the pervert is
like aware of some truth that that like that that
neurotics like to deny, which is like the jewy sons
associated with authority right and like and like and and
how like neurotics will be outraged. Example, when if like
a judge kind of says, uh, you know, you're so despicable.

(51:05):
If I could have sentenced you to like one hundred
and fifty years, I would have because what you've done
is like so horrific. And it's like for the neurotic
that'll kind of make them uncomfortable because for them, they
think that the law is supposed to be this like
impartial thing that's real and like this idea that like
there could be kind of or like enjoyment, there could
be enjoyment in punishing someone. Right, that is like very

(51:27):
uncomfortable for the neurotic that like we might enjoy like
you know, and like the kind of jewey sance we
get from like enforcing laws or like think about you
know some hall monitor who like you know, in their identity,
they're like, well, I'm just like I'm just following the rules.
I'm just doing what the But but like I think
the pervert sort of is really in touch in like
an extreme way with like the jewey sance associated with that,

(51:50):
right that like there is actually huge Jewy sance in
like the laying down of the law.

Speaker 4 (51:54):
Yeah, and like the pervert revels in finding that the
moral law is like the law isn't actually just this
like objective moral code that it's like rooted in vindictiveness,
and they're trying.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
To create it.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
They're trying to they're trying to find it though like
a weird in a weird way, like.

Speaker 4 (52:10):
So they almost want them to admit that there's a satisfaction.
Like the pervert, you know, it finds in prison that
they're like these angry guards that will like beat them
and stuff like that, and be like this is evidence
that there's that there's enjoyment happening here. It's not just
like objective justice being administered.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
There's like this.

Speaker 4 (52:30):
Vindictive almost like like glory glorying in the punishment, and
it becomes this thing, I don't know, it becomes again
this like perverse sense of justice, right.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
And considering the perverts can be certainly cruel based on
this like law thing, but it's because they don't get it.
They don't get the law the way that a neurotic does.
Because neurotics are obsessed are obsessionals at least they're obsessed with.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
The law, yeah, and being seen to be good and
conforming to it and seen as as as like a
good example of it by others in society, like they're
obsessed with the scheme of others.

Speaker 4 (53:10):
Like kantient ethics is like the example of the neurotic
moral code, right, Like kantient ethics is dispassionate, detached, universal objective.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
Right.

Speaker 4 (53:22):
And he says here Sperbert seems to be cognizant at
some level of the fact that there is always some
jewy songs related to the annunciation of the moral code.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
That wants what morality is in a made up sense.
But even we yeah, we take it seriously in our action,
but we realize that it's a game. But even knowing
it's a game, you can't actually go out and behave
like it's a game. You have to exactly take it seriously.
The neurocity. The neurotic knows the rules and takes the

(53:55):
game very, very seriously. Not life or death, but pretty
close the life or death. Now, the distinction there is
the psychologist's.

Speaker 4 (54:03):
Supposed to take pleasure in passing the judgment.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Yeah, the psychotic doesn't recognize the rules of the game
or that there's a game, but the pervert does. And
the pervert treats the game as a game, the game
that we all realize is a game, but we take
it very seriously. They're able to go into the game
and also choose not to take it seriously, to play
it like and that's that's very scary. Sometimes in some

(54:28):
cases that's can be scary for a neurotic, and a
neurotic looks at them either with envy or fear envy,
because like, look, they get to get off however they want.
They're getting off and they're not feeling any shame for it,
or they're taking pleasure in this and not apologizing for it.
So there's a kind of a there's a kind of

(54:49):
we can't or I keep saying we I'm sorry. The
neurotic can't really get that, and that kind of makes
certain responses like judging them as evil or judging them
as or fearing them. One thing we forgot to bring
up that I wanted to on this point is the
paradigmatic history writer. Example of the psychotic was Judge Schreber,

(55:13):
who had a psychotic breakdown and get locked into the
asylum for the rest of his days. But the example
of the pervert the same, always quoted, oft quoted, literate
educated example is the Marquis de Sade, for whom Sadism
is named. But all the ink spilled over, I don't know,

(55:34):
fear and concern about about Marquis de Sade being read,
his books getting banned. All of that is this kind
of fear that the neurotic have of the pervert, and
he kind of figures is that.

Speaker 4 (55:47):
There's a tendency for masochistic perverts like masochists to seek
out incarceration because of the fact that they will get
like they might get brutalized and punished at least in
some way, and they like.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
That, like the the Marquis de Sade did and then
had his wife smuggle dildos.

Speaker 4 (56:09):
So it's like it's like a substitute symbolic crastration seeking
out incarceration for masochists because they can't have that true
symbolic castration otherwise they'd be neurotics. And and this and
then this is the lecon quote recourse to the very
image of castration can come as a relieving, salutary solution

(56:32):
to anxiety for the masochist. Again that that anxiety associated
with separation, but then that like deeper relief that separation
is supposed to bring, that they don't have proper access
to for some reason or other. So kant is cont
is compared there with the with the masochist. But but
maybe it would be the same thing for the sadist

(56:53):
because it's the victim's anxiety for the sadist that becomes
the focus, not that not maybe not I guess that
would be connect to their own anxiety obviously, but it's
about causing anxiety and someone else, right, Like they don't
know if they're going to They revel in creating a
situation for someone where like there's possible torture, possible death,
but it's all kind of vague and uncertain, and that's

(57:16):
what creates you know, their whatever, their victim. That's why
you can't really like a sadist can't deal with a masochist,
I guess, because there would be no that would just
short circuit the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
It wouldn't work.

Speaker 4 (57:28):
The fantasy would not work with a sadist and a masochist.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
No, because they're both trying to be the object. Yeah, yeah, exactly, loop.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
Exactly why I love it. Where there's that joke, remember
that joke where it's like what did the what did
the massacists say to the sad sadist and he's like
uh when he when he asked him, he's like hit me.
And then the sadist says, no, there you go, so.

Speaker 4 (57:57):
They just part ways. It's like the at the social club.

Speaker 3 (58:01):
Exactly exactly I was gonna. I was gonna kind of
make my fun case for for for how we might
see Trump as as as a as a pervert. I
don't know, is that is it an appropriate time for
me to to make my case?

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (58:14):
Oh okay, It's definitely an appropriate time here in the
UK because it's going.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
To Okay, So when it comes to like law and authority,
I think we could see Trump in a way as
like presenting himself as like lawgiver. Right, He'll always say
things like I alone can fix it, only I can
do X. And he also doesn't respect institutional norms. Right.
He repeatedly stages authority, so even in defiance of things

(58:41):
like constitutional checks. So I think we could say that
this is kind of matching like a perverse stance of
like creating law in place of a weak father. Right,
He's like kind of like he's subverting all these things, okay,
and then also disavowal. I think it's kind of fun
Trump frequently enacts a kind of weird disavowal in the

(59:02):
sense that I don't know if like in the same sentence,
he'll be like, I know very well, all the same,
but it's like, think about like the way he exaggerates
things all the time, right, But then he'll obliquely insist
on them even if he acknowledges their exaggerations, and he'll
say things like, oh, everyone knows this, no one's done
it more than this, And it's like he'll get pushed
on it sometimes and he'll be like, yeah, like I know,

(59:24):
I know, but then he'll just keep doing it. Right,
so he'll kind of like admit that he knows the truth,
but then he'll still say like, but this is the
greatest thing ever bad. No one's ever seen it, no
one's ever seen anything like it, and it's like okay.
So then there's also like relation to the other's desire,
So I would say that like maybe in when he's

(59:46):
at rallies or whatever, he positions himself as an object
of desire or juissance for the crowd, right, so he's
always claiming that he can fill in their lack right
about immigration elites decline, right, he he offers himself as
their fallus, right, that kind of their missing piece, Like,
as I said before, like only I can fix this,

(01:00:07):
only I can do that. And then uh, you know
there's like the refusal of sacrificing his juissance. Right, He's
obviously known for not giving up pleasures, right, money, status
in exchange for symbolic respectability. In fact, it seems like
he doesn't really care about symbolic the symbolic fallus. He
only cares about the imaginary the pleasure. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Yeah, you can think if you maybe he doesn't like
having this gaudy gold bathroom or whatever, but he gets
a gold bathroom because that's what other people think rich
people should do. Yeah, the imaginary fallus is the gold
bathroom exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
So that's kind of like my case. And then obviously,
like there's obviously arguments against it. I mean I think
that in a way, like the one thing that's sort
of missing is like he does actually seemed to be
quite obsessed with social standing and that is not perverted, right, Like,
so that is very very neurotic obsessional like to like
he's obsessed with the media ratings. So you know that's

(01:01:12):
kind of a mark against him actually, being a pervert,
but it's still fun. I think it's a fun case.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
Yeah, I can see that because it's got that like
the twofold attitude towards the father. Maybe Trump has this
like the naming is not complete, the legislating of the
law is not complete, and yet he's constantly staging naming
and annunciation of law. I think that sounds a bit
like what you were saying. He's constantly harping on this

(01:01:38):
or that institution being insufficient. The Democrats right now are
quite under fire.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
He's certainly he's certainly he's certainly acting in perverse ways.
I would say, right, like that's I would say, like
he's he's acting in perverse ways. But it's obviously impossible
to know. Well, you know, I should have said it before.
Obviously the caveat is like it's really bad form to
like try to say quitalyize someone from a distance. I'm
sure there's like a lot of potential reasons for why.
You know, he could just be a neurotic and be

(01:02:05):
like you acting this way strategically, right, that like it's
working for him, So he's going to keep saying shit
like this, right, but it's not actually representative of what
he you know, really feels or his actual kind of uh,
sort of uncontrolled urges. But I think the behavior is
perverse in this sense. I think we can at least

(01:02:25):
argue the behaviors in a Lacanian sense somewhat perverse.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
Yeah, just like the just because one of this, this
pervert had a rape fantasy. I don't know a girl
that doesn't have a rape fantasy. Yeah, I know, but
it doesn't be there all perverts obviously exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:02:42):
Yeah, we need to know, like there is a kind
of literal sense and now I wouldn't say literal, but
there needs to be some kind of attitude towards the
father being. You know, in the in the psychoanalytics session,
you have to get someone to tell a story, right,
narrativize their life, and there needs to be some kind
of father figure paternal function in there, and you have

(01:03:05):
to determine this attitude towards it and whether this constitutes
some kind of disavowal. So who knows what this like
eighty year old fucking man thinks about his father or
I don't. I don't know what I mean psychoanalyzing some
of that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
I think he's pretty clearly like a paranoid probablysial.

Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
On the other hand, if we're if we're talking about
Trump admint perverts, I can very easily picture Steven Miller
jerking off while a bunch of Mexican migrants are performing
Gone with the Wind or something, while he's forcing them,

(01:03:48):
he's forcing them to He would get off on causing anxiety.
He seems to take pleasure in suffering or being feared
as being able to cause suffering, which would be a sadistic,
sadistic trait. He's just terribly like zero riz zero gravitas

(01:04:09):
in when he speaks, So I'm not too worried about him.
But he's he's a scary dude, so I wouldn't surprise
me at all if you had.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
Oh yeah, I also I was gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Something locked up at his basement.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
I was going to bring up as well, like Whyk's
uh titles for his movies maybe makes sense. I guess
what I was thinking is, you know, isn't the process
of making a movie kind of a staging of fantasies?
Like it's sort of like you are creating like these
scenarios that are like so in a way, like cinema

(01:04:42):
itself is like maybe perverse and in a certain sense
of like like what it because what it's doing is
it's like showing, it's like creating very specific stagings of
things of like basically he argues right through his analysis
of the films like kind of ideological in his sense,
like fantasy kind of representations. Right, So maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Sounds really like Laura Mulvey. But the the thing is
it's called the Perverts Guide, So it's like it's pervert
perverted to watch him break it down, right, but.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
It's also perverts Guide to understanding cinema. So it's like
in the city. Yeah, you're right, I mean it's it's
like the it does kind of imply that the the
like the viewer is the pervert. I guess, not that
cinema itself is perverted, but I guess I guess it's
I was thinking about it. It's like kind of like
a tour where like the guide shows you how films

(01:05:41):
like Stage are unconscious fantasies, right, how they kind of
show desire like more clearly than we can see ourselves.
So it's like the staging part, I guess was where
I was thinking maybe, like like the it's showed, like
the perversion is in the showing like the kind of

(01:06:02):
obscene underside of law morality in enjoy like. So it's
like by analyzing film we can kind of reveal the
arbitrariness of like ideology maybe which is obviously with what
the pervert does, because the pervert doesn't believe in or
doesn't even understand the law like or like you know,
like the kind of subversion.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
Maybe it's because the pervert needs it explained, needs the
joke to be explained to them.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
Maybe, And we're all perverts in the sense that we're
not going to be looking into movies that hard.

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):
Yeah yeah, maybe. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Maybe you have to be a pervert to care about
movies enough to watch a breakdown of scenes by a
Slovenian man.

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):
Obviously he's trying to be provocative to you with that name.
I mean, it's a funny name, Pervert's Guide.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
It's better than Theotics Guide to Cinema.

Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
I remember, I remember I had like way back in
like two thousand and eight. I think the psychotics guy
I had I was working at like the Source basically
radio Shack and for those non Canadian listeners, but it's
called the Source here or was. I guess it still exists.
And this is back when I had a bunch of
like ripped movies on a hard drive, I think, and
I like had downloaded, like pirated a bunch of stuff.

(01:07:09):
I was really into pirating movies back then. And my coworker,
I think, like for some reason, I like arranged to
like give him a bunch of my pirated movies, and
one of them was the Jijik's The Perverts Guide to Cinema,
I think. And this coworker, who's like not at all
into philosophy, but just like Sawden, was like, Oh, what's this.
This sounds like fun, And I was like, I don't
know if you're gonna like it's not pervert in the

(01:07:32):
sense that you're thinking I think.

Speaker 4 (01:07:35):
I think, yeah, I think the Perverts Guide thing the
pervert reference is is to fantasy. I think that's the
important point because when when Fink describes the Sadist, he
says it's in his fantasies. He views the victims anxiety
as an absolute condition necessary if they are to provide pleasure.

(01:08:01):
But what is crucial in fantasies is no more than
a screen, right, So the fantasy is just this empty thing,
not really empty, because it's what's important for the pervert.
But as we see, the neurotics moved on to the
to the symbolic, symbolic castration and speech.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
Right, it's kind of like the neurotic can get off,
can get off just by watching a film on a
flat screen, but uh, the pervert has to act it
out like a like a theater, like a stage play.

Speaker 4 (01:08:38):
Yeah, like seeing on the like and what does do
on the perverts guide, Like he's literally on the screen,
Like when when it's like The Titanic, he's like lying
in one of the bunk beds, like he's in every
scene he puts. He like walks into the films, he's
all literally.

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
He's in the rowboat for they.

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
Like the most hilarious spots. And when he's in there too,
like just explaining the film from like some random position
in a scene in the in the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
And of course you know there was definitely enough room
for both of them in this both but he has
to die.

Speaker 4 (01:09:15):
Yeah, with no comment on why he's positioned that way.
And then the rest of the time he's just he's
just the neurotics guide to hegel. That's that's what he
is the rest of the time because he's just either
on a podcast, speaking on YouTube or talking to you
and as Vera fawks or something. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
Yeah, well guys, uh, good place to end it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
Yeah great, that was fun. That was our our lacon
series for now. Although I am let me say, let
me strongly be arguing, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
If the patrons, if the patrons want us to keep going,
I will definitely keep going. I just I'm feeling a
wane and interest, and when I'm waning an interest, then
I feel.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
Like you w you will submit to the law of
the of the patreon.

Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
I will submit to the will the expression of the other. Definitely.

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
Well, let me make my pitch to the patrons. I
would like to cover neuroses because it's most of us
are neurotics, and I think we should talk about it eventually,
not now, but eventually. I want to come back to
it because I think it's the most relatable and it
might hit closest to homes, which will be fun.

Speaker 4 (01:10:23):
I think, so we can hysterical neuroses exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
Maybe I'm cutting it off here because I just don't
want to want to explore that I can't look in
the mirror. I can't stare.

Speaker 4 (01:10:33):
Yeah, it's already hitting too close to home. Yeah that
break too, So.

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):
Yeah, I'm down. Well, maybe we'll do something fun. I've
also been reading a lot of Lebanos lately for a
paper I'm working on. I don't know if you guys
have ever done that, but we could maybe do that.

Speaker 5 (01:10:47):
He's kind of boring, but Christian Heidger I prefer Nazis
Jewish hidiger over this shit the face almost.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
Yeah, Hi about other people matter.

Speaker 4 (01:11:01):
Now, yeah, exactly. Ethics is first philosophy, not ontology.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
All right, Well cut her there. Thanks guys, looking forward
to hear the the remarks here. But that's uh, what
is that number number six of the condom?

Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
Please write to us, Please write to us if you
feel like it and telling us. If you're a pervert,
tell us about it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Yeah, we gave you the Neurotics Guide to the Pervert,
and we're looking for the perverts Guide to the Neurotics
Guide to the Pervert.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
What's that word? I forget bonified?

Speaker 4 (01:11:40):
Bonified?

Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
Well maybe not maybe not a pervert? Maybe not.

Speaker 4 (01:11:46):
Some of these words here, pedophilia, frauterism, to surism, transvestic fetishism.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
Okay, I like that. I like scopophilic. Scopophilic. We It's
basically a peeping tom, but apparently there's a feed where
you can't. It's not just peeping time, Like you want
to see your neighbor naked, so you climb up a tree.
It's like, you can only get off if they don't
know that you're watching.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
Oh, that's fine. I wonder what about the opposite where
you can only get off if you, if you, if you,
if you like, know that they see you seeing.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
Them like cuckoldry. Yeah, anyway, we're done.

Speaker 3 (01:12:20):
And you're detecting the thingst but we're done here, folks.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Yeah, you have to know that they're anxious. That's that's
a kind of weird. That seems sadistic, literally a little
bit right right, take care, all right,