February 21, 2024 • 42 mins
Welcome to the latest episode of POD-CACHE, the award-winning professional development podcast from CACHE Alumni.
Join us for this fascinating conversation with Bethan Harding MBE, a seasoned education professional working to pioneer the 'Winning With Numbers' teaching platform.
In this episode, Bethan shares her professional journey and brings real-world insights from her experiences in various school systems, including the US, and discusses her instrumental role in establishing teaching hubs and support.
We explore Bethan’s dedicated efforts towards the development and support of tools for number fluency and the episode covers in-depth discussions on 'Winning With Numbers'.
Designed to revolutionise primary maths education, this platform provides a comprehensive array of resources for teachers, parents, and students with the objective of making maths simple yet engaging. Bethan highlights the necessity of fostering a strong foundation in education and instilling fluency and confidence in subjects from an early age.
Find Winning With Numbers on their website at https://www.wwnumbers.com/ or on their social media pages;
Twitter: https://twitter.com/_WWNumbers Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wwnumbers Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_wwnumbers LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-harding-a84b682a/
If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your colleagues and remember to like, subscribe and leave us a review.
Visit cachealumni.org.uk to join 24,000 members from across care, health, early years and education. Membership starts at free, and you'll gain access to our member magazine, events, resources and a member discount and benefits scheme.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to PodCash, the portable professional development podcast from Cash Alumni.
Cash Alumni is the fastest growing association of professionals in care,
health and education, and we're happy to have you here.
This is where you'll hear from specialists and experts from across our network.
Here's what's coming up. There's near to 2000 videos on the platform.
(00:23):
So there was the period of obviously creating all all those videos and making
it and so we've been in schools for the last 18 months or so and when we speak
to schools and show them they absolutely can see what we're trying to achieve
and how it would be effective in their school.
Let's jump in to this week's episode. Thank you for having me on this podcast
(00:45):
really excited about this conversation we're about to have.
I'm Bethan Harding and I've I've got a background in education,
always worked in education, still working in education and always will.
A very quick summary. I started as a teacher in Swindon and quickly became the
maths leader and a lead maths teacher for the county.
(01:10):
Then moved to America for a year and worked in a school in America just for
experience and opportunity to travel and see education in another country.
And then returned to Cardiff, which is my hometown, and worked in a large inner
city school, the very high disadvantage.
But it was a very well-known school, very forward thinking.
(01:31):
So I became the maths leader, then the English lead, safeguarding lead, assistant head, etc.
And then became head teacher of that school, Hibb Thompson Primary School in
Cardiff. And we had a very successful inspection there.
And so became kind of the Welsh version of a teaching school,
if you like. And we wrote and delivered a lot of CPD for teachers and headteachers across the region.
(01:56):
Most days, we had people visiting our school, watching lessons,
being trained and so on. So that was a really exciting opportunity.
And I then became a strategic lead for the Central South Consortium.
And we set up a lot of teaching hubs, improvement hubs, they were called, across the region.
And we were a pioneer school and so on. So I had great opportunities there to
(02:18):
work with other leaders.
And then in 2016, I got married to somebody from the northeast of England.
So I moved to the northeast of England and became head of an all-through school,
which is a 3-19 school in Blyth in Northumberland. And...
Then two years ago, I finished, not two years ago, probably about 18 months
(02:40):
ago now, I finished being a head teacher and joined my husband and we set up Harden Education.
Harden Education does two things. It provides leadership training and coaching
and support for school leaders and head teachers.
But it also, we provide a number curriculum and learning platform called Winning with Numbers.
(03:04):
And that is a primary maths
curriculum for the number part of the curriculum and a learning platform which
includes a whole suite of resources for schools and parents and children to
ensure that children are fluent and confident with number ideally by the age
of 10 so that's kind of what our mission is through winning with numbers.
(03:25):
Wow well I've got loads of questions because there were loads of really interesting
things that you have said in there.
The first First thing I wanted to ask, because I didn't know this already,
was three to 19. What's that like? Three to 19?
Like, that sounds like a massive age range. How do you look after the needs
of and cater to such a massive age range?
(03:46):
I skipped over that part because I was aware of time. But yeah,
it was a great professional opportunity for me as well, being the head of a
primary school, then moving to a school which was all through.
I was a co-principal with somebody who was responsible for secondary and I was
responsible for primary.
But we very much worked together. We led the school as one, if you like.
(04:11):
And we held lots of national conferences because, like you said, how does that work?
There's a range of all through schools across the country. And the feedback
we got through running these conferences was that actually the primary school
and the secondary school very much worked in isolation, in reality.
And so we were very much wanted to explore
how you make a 3
(04:33):
to 19 school most effective what leadership
structure should it have should the staff be working together and so on so it
was a really great experience for me and for all the staff to work in the school
for 3 to 19 because often primary schools say that secondary schools don't pick
up the children from where they're
at and the children take a dip in year seven, which is very common.
(04:55):
And, you know, secondary schools might say about primary that we're not preparing
them for that secondary curriculum.
So having the opportunity to bring those staff together to make sure that the
curriculum, the teaching, the transition was as seamless as possible was great.
Because, yeah, it is well known that children do take a dip in year seven.
And what we're all about in winning with numbers is that seamless curriculum so there isn't a dip.
(05:21):
And the children feel that they're being taught by the same teacher,
if you like, that the teachers know the children's background knowledge and start from that point.
Whereas often in year seven, it's a difficulty that the children don't,
the teachers don't know the children's background knowledge and therefore just
starting from where the curriculum tells them to start in year seven.
So, yeah, it was great to have those opportunities in CPD and more informally
(05:46):
as well to get those teachers together to make sure that,
number one, the curriculum is sequenced and that the teachers know that curriculum
and also know the children.
And so there's less negative effect during those transition periods.
So tell us a little bit more about Winner With Numbers. How does that work?
What is it? Obviously, being a headteacher and my husband who started the company
(06:10):
has also got a headteacher background and he's a math specialist and was an
offset inspector, isn't anymore.
So, yeah, we've got a lot of backgrounds in education and there's a real frustration,
particularly in math, and it was very evident after COVID that children aren't
confident in the basic number.
(06:31):
And therefore, that's when we get the negative mindset when it comes to maths,
because children are put into difficult problem solving situations or given
challenges and they haven't got that foundation and they haven't got that basic number knowledge.
So then they get anxious or worried or, you know, because they can't answer
(06:53):
the problem or they don't know how to apply their knowledge to the challenge
because they haven't got it.
So we have a real vision really to ensure that all children are fluent and confident
with number and they're then able to apply that into the wider maths curriculum.
And so we want them fluent and then obviously the confidence comes from that
(07:13):
because we've all heard a lot about the negative mindset in maths,
even the government talking about it. it.
And so that's where we're at, really.
And it's a bit like phonics for maths. So anyone knows primary education,
they know about the importance of phonics, getting the children to understand
and know the letter sounds in order to be able to apply that knowledge to the
(07:35):
wider reading curriculum.
It's the same with winning with numbers in maths. So we say winning with numbers
is like phonics to maths, getting that solid foundation in order for it to apply. apply.
So how we do that, we've written a curriculum which has got 300 wins,
is what we call, but they're basically learning objectives.
And those learning objectives, those wins are being put in a straight line curriculum.
(08:00):
So it's easy for teachers and parents to follow that curriculum and deliver it to the children.
Often our maths curriculums, we have strands and teachers just have to jump
from one strand to the other.
So we wanted to simplify that and put it in straight lines. We've got 300 wins,
300 objectives in a straight line.
(08:21):
And that curriculum took about six to eight months to actually write and put together.
Again, schools haven't got the time or maybe the expertise in order to do that.
So we've put that curriculum together.
And then that curriculum is put onto a learning platform.
And our learning platform, people often say, what's unique about your platform?
Well, again, having a school background, we've ensured that there's a suite
(08:46):
of resources on there for teachers, for parents and for children.
So each of the 300 wins has a CPD video that is very short, and it basically
tells the member of staff, this is what you're teaching, this is why you're
teaching it, and this is how to teach it.
Because there's lots of primary teachers who aren't confident in math.
(09:07):
They might have not had a good experience themselves in math,
totally understandable.
And so rather than having one big inset day at the beginning of the year,
we give a drip feed of CPD throughout the year.
So for every lesson, the teachers, the teaching assistants have got a CPD video
that kind of trains them at ongoing.
(09:28):
And it's called Be the Expert videos because we want our staff to become more
and more expert in teaching and maths because we know they might not have had
the knowledge or the experience themselves.
And then for each of the 300 wins, there's a Teach Me video and there's Goal
videos. And those Teach Me videos and Goal videos teach the children, basically, that win.
(09:49):
And the Goal videos model to the children how to answer those questions.
And so the teachers can use that in class and the parents can use that at home.
So worst case scenario, if you haven't got an app up there at all,
the children can just press play and it'll teach them that win and it'll model
to them how to answer the questions.
But ideally, you've got a member of staff or a parent sitting with the child
(10:12):
and using in that video, kind of team teaching, if you like,
with that video, pressing pause and having conversations around it and whatnot.
And then on the platform, the children can answer questions after watching the
goal videos and having it muddled to them.
They can answer questions either on their whiteboards, if schools haven't got
devices, or they can answer questions straight into a device.
(10:32):
So they can, some schools use it on just the main class board and then ask children
to answer the questions at home on their devices.
And some schools who've got devices, obviously the children answer their questions there and then.
And then if they do do that on a device, all the answers go into the system
and the system gives you a lot of data analysis about how the children are performing
(10:55):
and what speed they're working through for the win. Are they at the expected standard?
How many wins have they got to catch up and so on? But the key thing about Winning
With Numbers is all the way through there's a remind me feature.
So if the children or the teachers think, oh, the children aren't quite getting
this or the children are at home and they don't quite understand,
they can click the remind me feature.
And the system will pick up what the children are not quite getting and take
(11:19):
the member of staff or the parent back to the win that they need to revisit.
When I play Duolingo to teach myself German, it knows the words that maybe I'm
the weakest at and tries to build them into more sentences when I need it.
Yeah, yeah. It's lesson.
Yeah. So it'll pick up on the knowledge you've not got and it'll take you back
to that win and say, don't worry, it's fine. Again, we don't want to cause any
(11:44):
stress around the fact that you're not quite getting it.
Let's just remind you you're not done anything wrong. Let's just remind you
the previous knowledge that you've forgotten.
So it takes them back to that win. And again, the children can work through
the resources, the videos for that current win.
So again, the parents can watch the Be the Expert videos and the parents can
(12:04):
watch the Teach Me videos. So we're upskilling teachers.
We're supporting parents who might get worried about being in charge of maths
because of their background knowledge.
And we're also obviously teaching the children through the system and supporting
them when those gaps have been identified.
This is Podcash, brought to you by Cash Alumni. For discounts on everything
(12:26):
from Apple products to MOTs, visit the Cashback page of cashalumni.org.uk.
That's cashalumni.org.uk.
Uk bethan you're
like my dream guest because i keep thinking about interesting things to
ask you and then you just answer them like during during the
answer the previous question it sounds like that it encompasses
(12:47):
that idea of helping teachers and
parents to also become fluent and confident
if they're not one of the more recent podcast
episodes that we shared with dr helen williams about
playful mathematics we talked a lot about like
the thing that you talked about at the the beginning about someone having
maybe a bad experience with maths I can pinpoint my
(13:08):
bad experience with maths I know the moment that
I forgot seven times seven over and over and over and over
again and felt like I was never going to get it and that was me done with maths
forever when I was in primary school but but we talked about that in that episode
so the idea that as building that confidence in every area of that child's sort
(13:30):
of learning environment I think is is really nice.
You've talked about it fitting with the curriculum and how it sort of maps that
progress and does stuff.
The bit about it being phonics for maths, how does working with numbers fit
with the primary maths curriculum?
(13:50):
It's taken the whole of the number part of the primary maths curriculum.
So the rest of the maths curriculum, you know, winning with numbers doesn't
address, addressed. It is just the number part.
So it lifted the number part out of the maths curriculum.
And you know, if you follow Winner With Numbers, you are absolutely covering
your curriculum, their maths curriculum as it stands, and introduce Winner With Numbers as an addition.
(14:15):
So it's just an extra injection, if you like, of number.
So they know when they come to that part of number or a part of the wider maths
curriculum where they'll need that knowledge, the children Children will be
confident because they've already come across this in winning with numbers.
That makes sense. And I think talking to Helen Williams, like obviously she
was saying that like number is the bit that people aren't confident with.
(14:39):
So schools might already be doing things like doing more shape stuff,
because if you use the word maths and people start to associate that with shape.
So with volume, with like that sort of fun experimenting type stuff that you do in maths.
Music.
(15:02):
With numbers bit because they're already confident so if actually they can also,
build that numbers confidence at the same time
and start to associate that all as maths
yeah yeah no i would completely agree with helen saying that and that's why
you know many have taken this as as an addition you know and this is extra injection
(15:23):
just like you have phonics as an addition and it sits in isolation 20 minutes
a day it's part of your day again because you might And that's what the difficulty
is with a curriculum where you've got different strands of maths.
Like you say, some teachers might lean towards spending longer in this strand
because it's, you know, more fun or they're more confident with it.
So having Winner With Numbers where you are just focusing on the number part
(15:45):
and you're moving from one win to the next ensures that that part,
the really important part of the curriculum is being covered thoroughly.
That's great. And what did you, you've been everywhere.
It what was it like going across to America and like
the difference between the education systems in all
three of those places is quite stark I
would imagine so yeah I started in Swindon just because that was kind of the
(16:08):
first job that came out when you came to uni so you applied straight away for
the first job and all of a sudden you moved into Swindon and then America yeah
I had a desire to kind of work elsewhere and I could see that in Swindon when
I became maths lead for the the region,
you know, and I was really enjoying that role, but I thought,
and I wanted to progress with it, which is why I stepped out at that point thinking,
(16:30):
let's do the working elsewhere now.
So then I could kind of return and really, really get my teeth into the career.
But so, and then coming to Wales after America.
So the biggest difference in America was that it was 11 form entry primary school, which.
Not sure if they exist in England, but we're generally two-form,
(16:52):
three-form is a big school.
So working in an 11-form primary school was different.
And I was working in kindergarten, which again, the kindergarten approach is very different.
But it was a fantastic experience and I became multicultural lead and it was a big school.
And so community events were, there was a lot of money invested in them.
(17:15):
So it was a great opportunity to be multicultural lead and
organize these different events and you know really great
budget in order to do that so yeah
so yeah it was a great experience to do that and then obviously to move
to wales and then back to england so you know the english and the wales curriculum
you know the big big difference that people would talk about at the moment i
guess would be the offset versus austin austin is the offset of wales and the
(17:40):
topic at the moment is how the whales have taken the judgment out of the inspection
and just kind of given schools.
Recommendations without that label that obviously a lot of people in England are fighting for.
So that's, I'm just using that because that's one thing that's really kind of
been discussed at the moment.
But yeah, I mean, to me, children are children wherever you go.
(18:03):
And that's what's interesting about maths as well. You know,
we've made sure that with our curriculum, we've looked at the American curriculum,
the Australian curriculum, etc.
Mass is mass wherever you go and so, you know, that's why the straight line
is very important with maths, whereas the history curriculum or the geography
curriculum or the English curriculum might change depending on which country you go to.
(18:27):
But children are children wherever you are. And when it comes to maths,
the maths curriculum, you know, can be pretty consistent from country to country.
Can I ask how that had informed the sort of stuff that you'd done with maths
and what you've got into that?
You say maths is maths wherever you go.
But I think one of the tensions that I think me and you might have talked about
(18:49):
in one of our off-air conversations before now with maths is the way I do maths
is different to the way my mum does maths.
And the way my niece does maths is different
to how I do maths so how you're
absolutely right you're absolutely right people use
different methods which is what makes it
(19:09):
difficult so that that was a key
we we knew that which is why
we included the be the expert videos
for parents in winning with numbers because
that is the frustration at home a child says I've
got this homework parent tries to support teaches them
in the wrong way because what they learned at school
(19:31):
is very different method to what their child is learning in school so
completely understands which is why we put those pdx within
to say to parents right this is what they're learning and
this is how to teach them this is the method we're using
so parents can feel relieved to say right.
I can support my child now because i know how they're learning it and
we won't kind of have a clash clash of discussions so and
(19:52):
with that as well for the first hundred we're also
saying to parents because the children are obviously very
young at that point they might not be writing they might be just saying their
numbers one to three for example that's the first twin so in those videos we
say to parents this is what they're learning here's some ideas maybe get some
pasta out of the cupboard and lay the pasta out and ask the children to you
(20:14):
know count them or or what have have you?
So we're saying to the parents, start with the learning platform.
Watch the videos, but then here's some ideas of what you can do in play with
your child, help kind of reinforce this number knowledge.
So yeah, I completely understand. And that's why, like I say,
we've included that to try and get rid of that frustration of all these different
(20:35):
methods that people have learned how to do math. I like the idea of like.
Tangible examples as well like ways to build it into play
because i think like obviously again like thinking about maths being
boring and scary like actually yeah it's
not we use maths all the time like even the
chickens that i've got in the garden do maths they look at the
(20:56):
two piles of stuff and they decide which one's bigger and which one.
They're they're all going to head towards like yeah it's.
It's something that would do quite naturally if
yeah i left to do it without it becoming
scary so yeah yeah it
doesn't have to be sit down and do this work for half an hour like you
say just whilst you're cooking whilst you're watching tv or
(21:17):
whatever you know you can add it add in these
relevant questions that don't feel like
the child's doing some work you know if you like yeah that
sounds great and is that similar with the teachers with
the staff members who are accessing the platform so for
those who might not be very confident with
teaching and maths it's that same sort of thought there
(21:39):
for them actually yeah yeah so again we
say start with the platform watch watch the video and
they're all very short particularly with the younger you know two three minutes
and then take that learning into your
areas in your classroom and here's some
ideas and that's where we've not said directly what
teachers have to do because people's environments vary so
(22:01):
just some ideas to kind of spark a
little bit of the teacher's creativity or you know
to inspire them on the kind of things that they could do because their
resources would vary store to store this sounds like a
really great solution like how are you finding it getting into schools like
what what how how easy is it to sort of give schools an an answer to to that
(22:25):
the problems that they've got with with a maths curriculum yeah so we've only We've only been.
Because there's near to 2000 videos on the platform.
So there was the period of obviously creating all those videos and making it.
And so we've been in schools for the last 18 months or so.
And when we speak to schools and show them.
(22:46):
They absolutely can see what we're trying to achieve and how it would be effective in their school.
So we don't really get any negative feedback.
It might be, oh, we can't use this right now because we've just started a new
phonics scheme, for example, and hitting staff with two new programs is too much.
(23:07):
So they might say, right, let's delay that until September, which is absolutely right,
because the implementation of any kind of new program you
use has got to be done effectively and we
work very closely with our schools to ensure
that the implementation is done effectively again because
of being head teachers we know we know what it's like
so we are our customers if
(23:30):
you like and so we understand the issues
in schools and the difficulties in schools and so we very
much as part of our program put quite intense support
in we want to see ourselves as part of
the team so we make sure you know we provide
launch training to introduce winning with
numbers to all the staff and then we very much
(23:51):
suggest going in you know on a termly basis working maybe with the maths leads
or with teachers to look at where you're at as a school and and the implementation
and how we can support and we're always on the end of a phone for you know a
team's meeting with the maths lead or the head teacher or you know can you support
this can Can you give us advice on this?
Because we aren't just a, we don't like the word product. We aren't just a product
(24:16):
that we just give to schools and we say goodbye.
As soon as schools start winning with numbers, we see ourselves as part of their team.
And we want to work with them to make sure that it's implemented as well as
possible in their context. Because each context is different.
Some might use it just for an intervention for some children who need to kind
of catch up. Some schools, most schools use it whole school,
(24:38):
some secondary schools have started to use it again for those children who need additional support.
So we want to be part of that conversation to make sure that the implementation is smooth.
And schools, you know, work extremely well.
Music.
(25:11):
Strapline they've seen it for reading they
said that here are the programs that you
should be using in order to get phonics and where
it needs to be and they're starting to get there with
number as well so you know
schools do see that it's a problem and still see that winning with numbers can
(25:31):
can address that quite well that sounds great tell us more about secondary schools
using Win With Numbers because I hadn't thought about how this programme could
actually support anyone who needs support with numbers and maths and confidence.
Yeah, yeah. So what's great about it, obviously, when you're teaching a whole
(25:51):
class, you're teaching one win, but you might have children who should be on
a lower win or a higher win.
And so what's great about Win With Numbers is that individual children can be
on on different wins if the setup allowed that.
So at secondary school, it particularly does. So if we have not met the expected
(26:13):
standard at primary, so what do secondary schools do with them?
The key thing we would say is get them fluent and confident with number.
And so often they may be sent out with a learning support assistant to do some
catch-up programs, but the learning support assistant or the teacher doesn't
know the primary curriculum.
(26:35):
So they might not be hitting the right part of the child's learning journey.
So with Winner with Numbers, a learning support assistant could take the group
of children out and each of the individual children could be on a different win.
And they simply, on an iPad or some device, press play.
It'll teach them. And so the learning support assistant in secondary is just
(26:56):
there to facilitate that group.
But they're able to simply press play the child
is taught press play on the goal video as the
child is modeled how to answer the questions then they that
child can answer the questions if they get stuck they got
the remind me feature to take them back so the secondary
schools very much use them like that where the
(27:17):
learning support assistant is just a facilitator but
they know they're getting high quality math teaching at the exact point where
the child's at rather than the the teacher assistant being given something by
the class teacher who might not be aware of exactly where the child's at and
then primary curriculum and how to how to deliver that so.
(27:39):
Really, it's kind of, someone said it's like a gift to secondary schools because it's there on a plate.
And again, you might have learning support assistants who've not had a good
experience with maths, not confident themselves.
They can watch, even if it's two minutes before the lesson, the Be The Expert
video that will help explain to them what's going to be covered and how it's
going to be taught and so on.
(28:00):
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(28:20):
I used to work in welfare work and in homelessness, and a lot of the people
that I would support or that would come into contact with would struggle with numeracy.
Can you see winning with numbers support in those adult groups with numeracy skills?
Yeah, absolutely. So the government, I don't know if listeners know,
(28:41):
but they've invested a lot of money in what they call the Multiply Project.
And the Multiply Project, the purpose of that is to get the adults you're talking
about fluent and confident with number, if you like.
And so there's there's lots of
organizations who are running various programs to support
adult with numeracy exactly what you've described there so we actually work
(29:04):
with the moment two or three organizations they're actually football clubs who
kind of run these adult programs and they've they now work with us so they use
winning with numbers as part of their program.
So they might run some sessions on cooking on a budget, if you like,
to help those adults with numeracy on that side.
(29:27):
But they also use Winning with Numbers and those adults work through the Winning
with Numbers program with their child.
So it is teaching them.
The maths that their child's learning and promoting
a more positive kind of relationship between the adults and
the child when it comes to supporting with homework but also it's helping the
(29:50):
child their parent with their own numeracy too so the last hundred wins particularly
a lot of us would have to kind of remind ourselves how to multiply with decimal
place numbers and things things like that.
So those last 100 weeks, particularly those adults, either with their child
are working through the winning numbers program, or they're able to use the
(30:14):
program themselves individually.
Some of them might not like to within the group, but they've got access.
If they buy winning numbers, they've got access both in school,
in the groups and at home.
So So those adults might access that at home on their own, working through the program themselves.
So, yeah, because we tried to strip away a lot of the gamification for cognitive
(30:37):
load, CV reasons, but also to ensure that it wasn't childlike,
if you like, for secondary schools.
And so adults who are using it don't find it particularly childish,
you know, because there's no gamification.
Kind of like I say, we've stripped it back as much as possible to make people
(30:57):
focus on the learning and the teaching that's going on in the videos.
So, yeah, we are working with some young adults groups in order to improve their numeracy.
And, you know, we found that we hadn't thought about that ourselves,
but it's been really effective.
And so you know we very much would welcome
opportunity to work with kind of young adult groups particularly
(31:19):
if they've got children who can also work through the program
as well yeah i suppose like as an adult who obviously
is quite good at maths having been maths lead
from a young age and marrying another maths head teacher how how do you get.
Music.
Into the mindset of someone one who's not good at maths well interestingly we're
(31:44):
not i did math a level but we're not,
what you would imagine as in grade a students to degree level you know or first degree at all,
particularly then so obviously we got through school we did okay with math but
i think it's because i'm waffling out here but i had an a level teacher hopefully
(32:06):
he's not listening he was a A lovely man, but he was so,
so, so intelligent in math.
He could not communicate it because it was all in his brain and he couldn't communicate it to us.
Like I say, a lovely man that just couldn't teach it because he didn't understand
people who didn't understand it. I had a similar experience with a math teacher.
(32:28):
We were on the board and we were all lost within seconds.
That's not us. So very much.
That's why I think Ben is really invested in math, particularly because he's
able to teach it, understanding that it needs to be broken down into very, very small steps.
So our winning with numbers curriculum, you've got the national curriculum here.
(32:51):
The winning with numbers curriculum is broken into very, very small steps.
And the goals within each win is broken down
even further and if you see the
videos you will see that because it's it's based on a
real understanding that gaps are
caused because we move through the curriculum too quickly and
so most people need it broken down into really small steps in order to understand
(33:14):
it and able to grasp so actually yeah you know we're not phd students in maths
And we understand that a curriculum needs to be broken down into the smallest
of steps because we understand,
frankly, the majority of people learn like that.
And that's why we've got such a great percentage of students going to secondary
(33:34):
school without that basic knowledge because we're moving through the curriculum too quickly.
Being a bit like that A-level teacher I talked about there, you know,
so winning with numbers is not being built by somebody with that mindset at all.
So that makes a lot of sense. it's like my the best math yeah best math teacher
i ever had was a gentleman who actually failed his math jcse twice and then
(33:57):
he joined the army and the army taught him maths and because.
They'd taught it to people who didn't understand maths and hate maths that way
when he left the army he decided to get his piece pgc and become a math teacher i think.
What I learned about maths at that time was that I needed maths to be tangible.
(34:21):
I needed it to be something that I could imagine or that was real so that numbers
became like something that you could picture rather than just obtuse things that exist. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But as well, these days, moving,
you know, with how fast tech is moving, to have a whole curriculum and all the
(34:44):
tangible things you need in order to move that curriculum is really difficult,
which is why, you know, again,
putting Winnie with Numbers onto a platform allows it all to be there and all
to be accessible by schools and homes.
And then the tangible part the human beings
you know in the child's life can can build that in
(35:04):
but having having it all there in one place
with all the teaching and the resources and the
support you know i think is important these days particularly you know and with
things like homeschooling and and there's a whole world of homeschooling out
there again we don't want people just plucking at different activities in math
there's a risk of that too especially with like Like we say with the tangible,
(35:28):
we'll do a bit of this today, do a bit of that.
The subject knowledge, you know, and that straight line curriculum is so,
so important to avoid the children getting gaps.
Yeah, and you touched on something else there that's really interesting that I hadn't thought about.
And that's the connection. connection you know
there is a lot of homeschooling and there's also a lot of children who
are not going to school but also
(35:51):
who may have like infrequent or
sort of spotty contact with school
and actually people can maintain some
sort of access to kids and bobs that they can follow through but also yeah keep
track of where they're at with it through something that is a straight it sounds
(36:11):
like it might be something that could support those people who maybe aren't
accessing school every day.
Yeah, for sure. If it's if, you know, you have got children in your school,
giving them access to Winner with Numbers means that they've got the full number curriculum at home.
And like I say, worst case, if there wasn't an adult there who was able to support
them, you know, they can just press play.
(36:33):
Most children are pretty tech savvy, if you like, compared to adult.
You know, when it plays on their mobile phone, they can do the questions on
a mobile phone as well. So that's what people say.
If people haven't got devices, you know, looking at children who are more disadvantaged,
we find that giving them an A4 sheet to do at home, if they're not at school,
(36:53):
compared to doing something on their mum's mobile, even the most disadvantaged,
the huge majority of people have got a mobile phone, they're much more likely
to do something on a mobile phone than on a sheet that might get lost or what have you.
And again, the teacher or the parent is able to access the answers to the questions
(37:14):
in real time, you know, and it'll kind of analyze how the children are doing,
what they're not getting right, you know, when they need to move back to and so on.
So a much more effective way for those children who are kind of in school part time or not at all.
If they've got access to Winning With Numbers, you know, you can track if they're
doing it as well on a daily or how often they're doing it and so on.
(37:37):
So it would be, you know, a really good resource for that, because,
again, it's often the school's responsibility, that child, even though they're not coming in.
So how can we meet our responsibility and ensure they're getting some kind of curriculum?
And again, because the videos are on there, they're getting quality teaching,
you know, if they are accessing it.
(37:57):
And that's just obviously something the school would have to monitor.
Do you think you'll ever offer winning with numbers to individuals? Yeah, we do.
There's a school subscription, there's
a tutor subscription and there's an individual parent subscription.
Schools subscribe all the parents and children get access
(38:19):
at home parents don't need to do anything but if
you're part of a school that doesn't subscribe to winning with numbers as a
parent you can subscribe one child that
10 children if you've got that so yeah individual
parents can't subscribe to the winning
with numbers and have access kind of all year round and then
the same for tutors because again there's a
(38:40):
lot of tutors who could move through
the winning with numbers through a program with their with their tutees
and again the parents would be able to access it as well so so
yeah it is offered to individuals too oh that's
really exciting maybe that's one
of the things me or my colleagues might explore with our development allowance
so that we can get better at maths yeah yeah
(39:02):
yeah we've talked about loads of interesting things is there anything that you
haven't had a chance to talk about yet that you'd like our audience to know
i think it's It's important to make the point that there's a lot of negative
press around teaching and a lot of negative press around math,
too, but about the profession.
And I think at every point in my life, working for a very disadvantaged school
(39:24):
in Wales, particularly, and then moving into this winning with numbers,
it is about improving life chances.
Now, all schools will say that out of their vision or on their slogan.
But you know my personal mission
in life if you like is to improve life chances
and i think there's been a lot of investment put into reading
(39:45):
because we know that improves life chances but we also know numeracy improves
life chances and there's been less investment in that which is exactly why we're
doing winner with numbers if you like and we started it because we very much
are about improving life chances.
And we know literacy and numeracy will do exactly that.
(40:06):
Music.
So let's focus on numeracy because there's been less work done in that area.
So, you know, that's my person and I don't want to lose that.
And, you know, if everybody listening is in education, you know,
I would, it's slightly off, but let's not lose the kind of why and the purpose.
(40:26):
It's challenging, journey it's difficult there's a lot of negative prayer
but let's not lose the purpose and the why and for
me it's about improving life chances and so i'm not
going to be negative about that you know and i'm
going to be positive about that you know and i would just encourage everybody
you know wherever they're at in their own personal math journey and whether
in education it's kind of not lose your why and not lose your purpose and and
(40:49):
maintain a positive mindset towards math for education as a whole,
because I think that is kind of slowly deteriorating and we don't want that, you know.
So yeah, that's kind of the last little nugget, I might say.
That's a really nice note to end on. Where can people find Winning North Numbers
(41:10):
and Harden Education if they want to find you?
Yeah. So Winner With Numbers is, we've got a website and that'll give you all
the information you need. And that's www.numbers.com.
So not www, but www.numbers.com, Winner With Numbers.
And that website will give you all the information you need.
And there's a link on there if you wanted a demo or if you wanted an informal
(41:34):
conversation with us about anything we've talked about, you can kind of book
a slot directly into our diary.
So, you know, please do do that.
So, yeah, that's probably the best place to find us.
And then Harden Education, where we provide a lot of leadership,
training and support is hardeneducation.com.
But we talk mainly about winning with numbers, but you can also find us there
(41:56):
at hardeneducation.com.
And we are on Twitter and LinkedIn and Instagram, and it was kind of three stages
there. So please do subscribe on any social followers.
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed it, please follow or subscribe on your
podcast app so you never miss an episode.
You can also watch many of these conversations by heading over to cashalumni.org.uk
(42:17):
and going to the CPD and best practice section of the site.
That's cashalumni.org.uk.
Welcome to PodCash, the portable professional development podcast from Cash Alumni.
Cash Alumni is the fastest growing association of professionals in care,
health and education, and we're happy to have you here.
This is where you'll hear from specialists and experts from across our network.
Here's what's coming up. There's near to 2000 videos on the platform.
(00:23):
So there was the period of obviously creating all all those videos and making
it and so we've been in schools for the last 18 months or so and when we speak
to schools and show them they absolutely can see what we're trying to achieve
and how it would be effective in their school.
Let's jump in to this week's episode. Thank you for having me on this podcast
(00:45):
really excited about this conversation we're about to have.
I'm Bethan Harding and I've I've got a background in education,
always worked in education, still working in education and always will.
A very quick summary. I started as a teacher in Swindon and quickly became the
maths leader and a lead maths teacher for the county.
(01:10):
Then moved to America for a year and worked in a school in America just for
experience and opportunity to travel and see education in another country.
And then returned to Cardiff, which is my hometown, and worked in a large inner
city school, the very high disadvantage.
But it was a very well-known school, very forward thinking.
(01:31):
So I became the maths leader, then the English lead, safeguarding lead, assistant head, etc.
And then became head teacher of that school, Hibb Thompson Primary School in
Cardiff. And we had a very successful inspection there.
And so became kind of the Welsh version of a teaching school,
if you like. And we wrote and delivered a lot of CPD for teachers and headteachers across the region.
(01:56):
Most days, we had people visiting our school, watching lessons,
being trained and so on. So that was a really exciting opportunity.
And I then became a strategic lead for the Central South Consortium.
And we set up a lot of teaching hubs, improvement hubs, they were called, across the region.
And we were a pioneer school and so on. So I had great opportunities there to
(02:18):
work with other leaders.
And then in 2016, I got married to somebody from the northeast of England.
So I moved to the northeast of England and became head of an all-through school,
which is a 3-19 school in Blyth in Northumberland. And...
Then two years ago, I finished, not two years ago, probably about 18 months
(02:40):
ago now, I finished being a head teacher and joined my husband and we set up Harden Education.
Harden Education does two things. It provides leadership training and coaching
and support for school leaders and head teachers.
But it also, we provide a number curriculum and learning platform called Winning with Numbers.
(03:04):
And that is a primary maths
curriculum for the number part of the curriculum and a learning platform which
includes a whole suite of resources for schools and parents and children to
ensure that children are fluent and confident with number ideally by the age
of 10 so that's kind of what our mission is through winning with numbers.
(03:25):
Wow well I've got loads of questions because there were loads of really interesting
things that you have said in there.
The first First thing I wanted to ask, because I didn't know this already,
was three to 19. What's that like? Three to 19?
Like, that sounds like a massive age range. How do you look after the needs
of and cater to such a massive age range?
(03:46):
I skipped over that part because I was aware of time. But yeah,
it was a great professional opportunity for me as well, being the head of a
primary school, then moving to a school which was all through.
I was a co-principal with somebody who was responsible for secondary and I was
responsible for primary.
But we very much worked together. We led the school as one, if you like.
(04:11):
And we held lots of national conferences because, like you said, how does that work?
There's a range of all through schools across the country. And the feedback
we got through running these conferences was that actually the primary school
and the secondary school very much worked in isolation, in reality.
And so we were very much wanted to explore
how you make a 3
(04:33):
to 19 school most effective what leadership
structure should it have should the staff be working together and so on so it
was a really great experience for me and for all the staff to work in the school
for 3 to 19 because often primary schools say that secondary schools don't pick
up the children from where they're
at and the children take a dip in year seven, which is very common.
(04:55):
And, you know, secondary schools might say about primary that we're not preparing
them for that secondary curriculum.
So having the opportunity to bring those staff together to make sure that the
curriculum, the teaching, the transition was as seamless as possible was great.
Because, yeah, it is well known that children do take a dip in year seven.
And what we're all about in winning with numbers is that seamless curriculum so there isn't a dip.
(05:21):
And the children feel that they're being taught by the same teacher,
if you like, that the teachers know the children's background knowledge and start from that point.
Whereas often in year seven, it's a difficulty that the children don't,
the teachers don't know the children's background knowledge and therefore just
starting from where the curriculum tells them to start in year seven.
So, yeah, it was great to have those opportunities in CPD and more informally
(05:46):
as well to get those teachers together to make sure that,
number one, the curriculum is sequenced and that the teachers know that curriculum
and also know the children.
And so there's less negative effect during those transition periods.
So tell us a little bit more about Winner With Numbers. How does that work?
What is it? Obviously, being a headteacher and my husband who started the company
(06:10):
has also got a headteacher background and he's a math specialist and was an
offset inspector, isn't anymore.
So, yeah, we've got a lot of backgrounds in education and there's a real frustration,
particularly in math, and it was very evident after COVID that children aren't
confident in the basic number.
(06:31):
And therefore, that's when we get the negative mindset when it comes to maths,
because children are put into difficult problem solving situations or given
challenges and they haven't got that foundation and they haven't got that basic number knowledge.
So then they get anxious or worried or, you know, because they can't answer
(06:53):
the problem or they don't know how to apply their knowledge to the challenge
because they haven't got it.
So we have a real vision really to ensure that all children are fluent and confident
with number and they're then able to apply that into the wider maths curriculum.
And so we want them fluent and then obviously the confidence comes from that
(07:13):
because we've all heard a lot about the negative mindset in maths,
even the government talking about it. it.
And so that's where we're at, really.
And it's a bit like phonics for maths. So anyone knows primary education,
they know about the importance of phonics, getting the children to understand
and know the letter sounds in order to be able to apply that knowledge to the
(07:35):
wider reading curriculum.
It's the same with winning with numbers in maths. So we say winning with numbers
is like phonics to maths, getting that solid foundation in order for it to apply. apply.
So how we do that, we've written a curriculum which has got 300 wins,
is what we call, but they're basically learning objectives.
And those learning objectives, those wins are being put in a straight line curriculum.
(08:00):
So it's easy for teachers and parents to follow that curriculum and deliver it to the children.
Often our maths curriculums, we have strands and teachers just have to jump
from one strand to the other.
So we wanted to simplify that and put it in straight lines. We've got 300 wins,
300 objectives in a straight line.
(08:21):
And that curriculum took about six to eight months to actually write and put together.
Again, schools haven't got the time or maybe the expertise in order to do that.
So we've put that curriculum together.
And then that curriculum is put onto a learning platform.
And our learning platform, people often say, what's unique about your platform?
Well, again, having a school background, we've ensured that there's a suite
(08:46):
of resources on there for teachers, for parents and for children.
So each of the 300 wins has a CPD video that is very short, and it basically
tells the member of staff, this is what you're teaching, this is why you're
teaching it, and this is how to teach it.
Because there's lots of primary teachers who aren't confident in math.
(09:07):
They might have not had a good experience themselves in math,
totally understandable.
And so rather than having one big inset day at the beginning of the year,
we give a drip feed of CPD throughout the year.
So for every lesson, the teachers, the teaching assistants have got a CPD video
that kind of trains them at ongoing.
(09:28):
And it's called Be the Expert videos because we want our staff to become more
and more expert in teaching and maths because we know they might not have had
the knowledge or the experience themselves.
And then for each of the 300 wins, there's a Teach Me video and there's Goal
videos. And those Teach Me videos and Goal videos teach the children, basically, that win.
(09:49):
And the Goal videos model to the children how to answer those questions.
And so the teachers can use that in class and the parents can use that at home.
So worst case scenario, if you haven't got an app up there at all,
the children can just press play and it'll teach them that win and it'll model
to them how to answer the questions.
But ideally, you've got a member of staff or a parent sitting with the child
(10:12):
and using in that video, kind of team teaching, if you like,
with that video, pressing pause and having conversations around it and whatnot.
And then on the platform, the children can answer questions after watching the
goal videos and having it muddled to them.
They can answer questions either on their whiteboards, if schools haven't got
devices, or they can answer questions straight into a device.
(10:32):
So they can, some schools use it on just the main class board and then ask children
to answer the questions at home on their devices.
And some schools who've got devices, obviously the children answer their questions there and then.
And then if they do do that on a device, all the answers go into the system
and the system gives you a lot of data analysis about how the children are performing
(10:55):
and what speed they're working through for the win. Are they at the expected standard?
How many wins have they got to catch up and so on? But the key thing about Winning
With Numbers is all the way through there's a remind me feature.
So if the children or the teachers think, oh, the children aren't quite getting
this or the children are at home and they don't quite understand,
they can click the remind me feature.
And the system will pick up what the children are not quite getting and take
(11:19):
the member of staff or the parent back to the win that they need to revisit.
When I play Duolingo to teach myself German, it knows the words that maybe I'm
the weakest at and tries to build them into more sentences when I need it.
Yeah, yeah. It's lesson.
Yeah. So it'll pick up on the knowledge you've not got and it'll take you back
to that win and say, don't worry, it's fine. Again, we don't want to cause any
(11:44):
stress around the fact that you're not quite getting it.
Let's just remind you you're not done anything wrong. Let's just remind you
the previous knowledge that you've forgotten.
So it takes them back to that win. And again, the children can work through
the resources, the videos for that current win.
So again, the parents can watch the Be the Expert videos and the parents can
(12:04):
watch the Teach Me videos. So we're upskilling teachers.
We're supporting parents who might get worried about being in charge of maths
because of their background knowledge.
And we're also obviously teaching the children through the system and supporting
them when those gaps have been identified.
This is Podcash, brought to you by Cash Alumni. For discounts on everything
(12:26):
from Apple products to MOTs, visit the Cashback page of cashalumni.org.uk.
That's cashalumni.org.uk.
Uk bethan you're
like my dream guest because i keep thinking about interesting things to
ask you and then you just answer them like during during the
answer the previous question it sounds like that it encompasses
(12:47):
that idea of helping teachers and
parents to also become fluent and confident
if they're not one of the more recent podcast
episodes that we shared with dr helen williams about
playful mathematics we talked a lot about like
the thing that you talked about at the the beginning about someone having
maybe a bad experience with maths I can pinpoint my
(13:08):
bad experience with maths I know the moment that
I forgot seven times seven over and over and over and over
again and felt like I was never going to get it and that was me done with maths
forever when I was in primary school but but we talked about that in that episode
so the idea that as building that confidence in every area of that child's sort
(13:30):
of learning environment I think is is really nice.
You've talked about it fitting with the curriculum and how it sort of maps that
progress and does stuff.
The bit about it being phonics for maths, how does working with numbers fit
with the primary maths curriculum?
(13:50):
It's taken the whole of the number part of the primary maths curriculum.
So the rest of the maths curriculum, you know, winning with numbers doesn't
address, addressed. It is just the number part.
So it lifted the number part out of the maths curriculum.
And you know, if you follow Winner With Numbers, you are absolutely covering
your curriculum, their maths curriculum as it stands, and introduce Winner With Numbers as an addition.
(14:15):
So it's just an extra injection, if you like, of number.
So they know when they come to that part of number or a part of the wider maths
curriculum where they'll need that knowledge, the children Children will be
confident because they've already come across this in winning with numbers.
That makes sense. And I think talking to Helen Williams, like obviously she
was saying that like number is the bit that people aren't confident with.
(14:39):
So schools might already be doing things like doing more shape stuff,
because if you use the word maths and people start to associate that with shape.
So with volume, with like that sort of fun experimenting type stuff that you do in maths.
Music.
(15:02):
With numbers bit because they're already confident so if actually they can also,
build that numbers confidence at the same time
and start to associate that all as maths
yeah yeah no i would completely agree with helen saying that and that's why
you know many have taken this as as an addition you know and this is extra injection
(15:23):
just like you have phonics as an addition and it sits in isolation 20 minutes
a day it's part of your day again because you might And that's what the difficulty
is with a curriculum where you've got different strands of maths.
Like you say, some teachers might lean towards spending longer in this strand
because it's, you know, more fun or they're more confident with it.
So having Winner With Numbers where you are just focusing on the number part
(15:45):
and you're moving from one win to the next ensures that that part,
the really important part of the curriculum is being covered thoroughly.
That's great. And what did you, you've been everywhere.
It what was it like going across to America and like
the difference between the education systems in all
three of those places is quite stark I
would imagine so yeah I started in Swindon just because that was kind of the
(16:08):
first job that came out when you came to uni so you applied straight away for
the first job and all of a sudden you moved into Swindon and then America yeah
I had a desire to kind of work elsewhere and I could see that in Swindon when
I became maths lead for the the region,
you know, and I was really enjoying that role, but I thought,
and I wanted to progress with it, which is why I stepped out at that point thinking,
(16:30):
let's do the working elsewhere now.
So then I could kind of return and really, really get my teeth into the career.
But so, and then coming to Wales after America.
So the biggest difference in America was that it was 11 form entry primary school, which.
Not sure if they exist in England, but we're generally two-form,
(16:52):
three-form is a big school.
So working in an 11-form primary school was different.
And I was working in kindergarten, which again, the kindergarten approach is very different.
But it was a fantastic experience and I became multicultural lead and it was a big school.
And so community events were, there was a lot of money invested in them.
(17:15):
So it was a great opportunity to be multicultural lead and
organize these different events and you know really great
budget in order to do that so yeah
so yeah it was a great experience to do that and then obviously to move
to wales and then back to england so you know the english and the wales curriculum
you know the big big difference that people would talk about at the moment i
guess would be the offset versus austin austin is the offset of wales and the
(17:40):
topic at the moment is how the whales have taken the judgment out of the inspection
and just kind of given schools.
Recommendations without that label that obviously a lot of people in England are fighting for.
So that's, I'm just using that because that's one thing that's really kind of
been discussed at the moment.
But yeah, I mean, to me, children are children wherever you go.
(18:03):
And that's what's interesting about maths as well. You know,
we've made sure that with our curriculum, we've looked at the American curriculum,
the Australian curriculum, etc.
Mass is mass wherever you go and so, you know, that's why the straight line
is very important with maths, whereas the history curriculum or the geography
curriculum or the English curriculum might change depending on which country you go to.
(18:27):
But children are children wherever you are. And when it comes to maths,
the maths curriculum, you know, can be pretty consistent from country to country.
Can I ask how that had informed the sort of stuff that you'd done with maths
and what you've got into that?
You say maths is maths wherever you go.
But I think one of the tensions that I think me and you might have talked about
(18:49):
in one of our off-air conversations before now with maths is the way I do maths
is different to the way my mum does maths.
And the way my niece does maths is different
to how I do maths so how you're
absolutely right you're absolutely right people use
different methods which is what makes it
(19:09):
difficult so that that was a key
we we knew that which is why
we included the be the expert videos
for parents in winning with numbers because
that is the frustration at home a child says I've
got this homework parent tries to support teaches them
in the wrong way because what they learned at school
(19:31):
is very different method to what their child is learning in school so
completely understands which is why we put those pdx within
to say to parents right this is what they're learning and
this is how to teach them this is the method we're using
so parents can feel relieved to say right.
I can support my child now because i know how they're learning it and
we won't kind of have a clash clash of discussions so and
(19:52):
with that as well for the first hundred we're also
saying to parents because the children are obviously very
young at that point they might not be writing they might be just saying their
numbers one to three for example that's the first twin so in those videos we
say to parents this is what they're learning here's some ideas maybe get some
pasta out of the cupboard and lay the pasta out and ask the children to you
(20:14):
know count them or or what have have you?
So we're saying to the parents, start with the learning platform.
Watch the videos, but then here's some ideas of what you can do in play with
your child, help kind of reinforce this number knowledge.
So yeah, I completely understand. And that's why, like I say,
we've included that to try and get rid of that frustration of all these different
(20:35):
methods that people have learned how to do math. I like the idea of like.
Tangible examples as well like ways to build it into play
because i think like obviously again like thinking about maths being
boring and scary like actually yeah it's
not we use maths all the time like even the
chickens that i've got in the garden do maths they look at the
(20:56):
two piles of stuff and they decide which one's bigger and which one.
They're they're all going to head towards like yeah it's.
It's something that would do quite naturally if
yeah i left to do it without it becoming
scary so yeah yeah it
doesn't have to be sit down and do this work for half an hour like you
say just whilst you're cooking whilst you're watching tv or
(21:17):
whatever you know you can add it add in these
relevant questions that don't feel like
the child's doing some work you know if you like yeah that
sounds great and is that similar with the teachers with
the staff members who are accessing the platform so for
those who might not be very confident with
teaching and maths it's that same sort of thought there
(21:39):
for them actually yeah yeah so again we
say start with the platform watch watch the video and
they're all very short particularly with the younger you know two three minutes
and then take that learning into your
areas in your classroom and here's some
ideas and that's where we've not said directly what
teachers have to do because people's environments vary so
(22:01):
just some ideas to kind of spark a
little bit of the teacher's creativity or you know
to inspire them on the kind of things that they could do because their
resources would vary store to store this sounds like a
really great solution like how are you finding it getting into schools like
what what how how easy is it to sort of give schools an an answer to to that
(22:25):
the problems that they've got with with a maths curriculum yeah so we've only We've only been.
Because there's near to 2000 videos on the platform.
So there was the period of obviously creating all those videos and making it.
And so we've been in schools for the last 18 months or so.
And when we speak to schools and show them.
(22:46):
They absolutely can see what we're trying to achieve and how it would be effective in their school.
So we don't really get any negative feedback.
It might be, oh, we can't use this right now because we've just started a new
phonics scheme, for example, and hitting staff with two new programs is too much.
(23:07):
So they might say, right, let's delay that until September, which is absolutely right,
because the implementation of any kind of new program you
use has got to be done effectively and we
work very closely with our schools to ensure
that the implementation is done effectively again because
of being head teachers we know we know what it's like
so we are our customers if
(23:30):
you like and so we understand the issues
in schools and the difficulties in schools and so we very
much as part of our program put quite intense support
in we want to see ourselves as part of
the team so we make sure you know we provide
launch training to introduce winning with
numbers to all the staff and then we very much
(23:51):
suggest going in you know on a termly basis working maybe with the maths leads
or with teachers to look at where you're at as a school and and the implementation
and how we can support and we're always on the end of a phone for you know a
team's meeting with the maths lead or the head teacher or you know can you support
this can Can you give us advice on this?
Because we aren't just a, we don't like the word product. We aren't just a product
(24:16):
that we just give to schools and we say goodbye.
As soon as schools start winning with numbers, we see ourselves as part of their team.
And we want to work with them to make sure that it's implemented as well as
possible in their context. Because each context is different.
Some might use it just for an intervention for some children who need to kind
of catch up. Some schools, most schools use it whole school,
(24:38):
some secondary schools have started to use it again for those children who need additional support.
So we want to be part of that conversation to make sure that the implementation is smooth.
And schools, you know, work extremely well.
Music.
(25:11):
Strapline they've seen it for reading they
said that here are the programs that you
should be using in order to get phonics and where
it needs to be and they're starting to get there with
number as well so you know
schools do see that it's a problem and still see that winning with numbers can
(25:31):
can address that quite well that sounds great tell us more about secondary schools
using Win With Numbers because I hadn't thought about how this programme could
actually support anyone who needs support with numbers and maths and confidence.
Yeah, yeah. So what's great about it, obviously, when you're teaching a whole
(25:51):
class, you're teaching one win, but you might have children who should be on
a lower win or a higher win.
And so what's great about Win With Numbers is that individual children can be
on on different wins if the setup allowed that.
So at secondary school, it particularly does. So if we have not met the expected
(26:13):
standard at primary, so what do secondary schools do with them?
The key thing we would say is get them fluent and confident with number.
And so often they may be sent out with a learning support assistant to do some
catch-up programs, but the learning support assistant or the teacher doesn't
know the primary curriculum.
(26:35):
So they might not be hitting the right part of the child's learning journey.
So with Winner with Numbers, a learning support assistant could take the group
of children out and each of the individual children could be on a different win.
And they simply, on an iPad or some device, press play.
It'll teach them. And so the learning support assistant in secondary is just
(26:56):
there to facilitate that group.
But they're able to simply press play the child
is taught press play on the goal video as the
child is modeled how to answer the questions then they that
child can answer the questions if they get stuck they got
the remind me feature to take them back so the secondary
schools very much use them like that where the
(27:17):
learning support assistant is just a facilitator but
they know they're getting high quality math teaching at the exact point where
the child's at rather than the the teacher assistant being given something by
the class teacher who might not be aware of exactly where the child's at and
then primary curriculum and how to how to deliver that so.
(27:39):
Really, it's kind of, someone said it's like a gift to secondary schools because it's there on a plate.
And again, you might have learning support assistants who've not had a good
experience with maths, not confident themselves.
They can watch, even if it's two minutes before the lesson, the Be The Expert
video that will help explain to them what's going to be covered and how it's
going to be taught and so on.
(28:00):
This is Podcash, brought to you by Cash Alumni. For job search and careers advice
in care, health and education, why not try our state-of-the-art SkillsMiner AI tool?
SkillsMiner is under the careers tab of cashalumni.org.uk. That's cashalumni.org.uk.
(28:20):
I used to work in welfare work and in homelessness, and a lot of the people
that I would support or that would come into contact with would struggle with numeracy.
Can you see winning with numbers support in those adult groups with numeracy skills?
Yeah, absolutely. So the government, I don't know if listeners know,
(28:41):
but they've invested a lot of money in what they call the Multiply Project.
And the Multiply Project, the purpose of that is to get the adults you're talking
about fluent and confident with number, if you like.
And so there's there's lots of
organizations who are running various programs to support
adult with numeracy exactly what you've described there so we actually work
(29:04):
with the moment two or three organizations they're actually football clubs who
kind of run these adult programs and they've they now work with us so they use
winning with numbers as part of their program.
So they might run some sessions on cooking on a budget, if you like,
to help those adults with numeracy on that side.
(29:27):
But they also use Winning with Numbers and those adults work through the Winning
with Numbers program with their child.
So it is teaching them.
The maths that their child's learning and promoting
a more positive kind of relationship between the adults and
the child when it comes to supporting with homework but also it's helping the
(29:50):
child their parent with their own numeracy too so the last hundred wins particularly
a lot of us would have to kind of remind ourselves how to multiply with decimal
place numbers and things things like that.
So those last 100 weeks, particularly those adults, either with their child
are working through the winning numbers program, or they're able to use the
(30:14):
program themselves individually.
Some of them might not like to within the group, but they've got access.
If they buy winning numbers, they've got access both in school,
in the groups and at home.
So So those adults might access that at home on their own, working through the program themselves.
So, yeah, because we tried to strip away a lot of the gamification for cognitive
(30:37):
load, CV reasons, but also to ensure that it wasn't childlike,
if you like, for secondary schools.
And so adults who are using it don't find it particularly childish,
you know, because there's no gamification.
Kind of like I say, we've stripped it back as much as possible to make people
(30:57):
focus on the learning and the teaching that's going on in the videos.
So, yeah, we are working with some young adults groups in order to improve their numeracy.
And, you know, we found that we hadn't thought about that ourselves,
but it's been really effective.
And so you know we very much would welcome
opportunity to work with kind of young adult groups particularly
(31:19):
if they've got children who can also work through the program
as well yeah i suppose like as an adult who obviously
is quite good at maths having been maths lead
from a young age and marrying another maths head teacher how how do you get.
Music.
Into the mindset of someone one who's not good at maths well interestingly we're
(31:44):
not i did math a level but we're not,
what you would imagine as in grade a students to degree level you know or first degree at all,
particularly then so obviously we got through school we did okay with math but
i think it's because i'm waffling out here but i had an a level teacher hopefully
(32:06):
he's not listening he was a A lovely man, but he was so,
so, so intelligent in math.
He could not communicate it because it was all in his brain and he couldn't communicate it to us.
Like I say, a lovely man that just couldn't teach it because he didn't understand
people who didn't understand it. I had a similar experience with a math teacher.
(32:28):
We were on the board and we were all lost within seconds.
That's not us. So very much.
That's why I think Ben is really invested in math, particularly because he's
able to teach it, understanding that it needs to be broken down into very, very small steps.
So our winning with numbers curriculum, you've got the national curriculum here.
(32:51):
The winning with numbers curriculum is broken into very, very small steps.
And the goals within each win is broken down
even further and if you see the
videos you will see that because it's it's based on a
real understanding that gaps are
caused because we move through the curriculum too quickly and
so most people need it broken down into really small steps in order to understand
(33:14):
it and able to grasp so actually yeah you know we're not phd students in maths
And we understand that a curriculum needs to be broken down into the smallest
of steps because we understand,
frankly, the majority of people learn like that.
And that's why we've got such a great percentage of students going to secondary
(33:34):
school without that basic knowledge because we're moving through the curriculum too quickly.
Being a bit like that A-level teacher I talked about there, you know,
so winning with numbers is not being built by somebody with that mindset at all.
So that makes a lot of sense. it's like my the best math yeah best math teacher
i ever had was a gentleman who actually failed his math jcse twice and then
(33:57):
he joined the army and the army taught him maths and because.
They'd taught it to people who didn't understand maths and hate maths that way
when he left the army he decided to get his piece pgc and become a math teacher i think.
What I learned about maths at that time was that I needed maths to be tangible.
(34:21):
I needed it to be something that I could imagine or that was real so that numbers
became like something that you could picture rather than just obtuse things that exist. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But as well, these days, moving,
you know, with how fast tech is moving, to have a whole curriculum and all the
(34:44):
tangible things you need in order to move that curriculum is really difficult,
which is why, you know, again,
putting Winnie with Numbers onto a platform allows it all to be there and all
to be accessible by schools and homes.
And then the tangible part the human beings
you know in the child's life can can build that in
(35:04):
but having having it all there in one place
with all the teaching and the resources and the
support you know i think is important these days particularly you know and with
things like homeschooling and and there's a whole world of homeschooling out
there again we don't want people just plucking at different activities in math
there's a risk of that too especially with like Like we say with the tangible,
(35:28):
we'll do a bit of this today, do a bit of that.
The subject knowledge, you know, and that straight line curriculum is so,
so important to avoid the children getting gaps.
Yeah, and you touched on something else there that's really interesting that I hadn't thought about.
And that's the connection. connection you know
there is a lot of homeschooling and there's also a lot of children who
are not going to school but also
(35:51):
who may have like infrequent or
sort of spotty contact with school
and actually people can maintain some
sort of access to kids and bobs that they can follow through but also yeah keep
track of where they're at with it through something that is a straight it sounds
(36:11):
like it might be something that could support those people who maybe aren't
accessing school every day.
Yeah, for sure. If it's if, you know, you have got children in your school,
giving them access to Winner with Numbers means that they've got the full number curriculum at home.
And like I say, worst case, if there wasn't an adult there who was able to support
them, you know, they can just press play.
(36:33):
Most children are pretty tech savvy, if you like, compared to adult.
You know, when it plays on their mobile phone, they can do the questions on
a mobile phone as well. So that's what people say.
If people haven't got devices, you know, looking at children who are more disadvantaged,
we find that giving them an A4 sheet to do at home, if they're not at school,
(36:53):
compared to doing something on their mum's mobile, even the most disadvantaged,
the huge majority of people have got a mobile phone, they're much more likely
to do something on a mobile phone than on a sheet that might get lost or what have you.
And again, the teacher or the parent is able to access the answers to the questions
(37:14):
in real time, you know, and it'll kind of analyze how the children are doing,
what they're not getting right, you know, when they need to move back to and so on.
So a much more effective way for those children who are kind of in school part time or not at all.
If they've got access to Winning With Numbers, you know, you can track if they're
doing it as well on a daily or how often they're doing it and so on.
(37:37):
So it would be, you know, a really good resource for that, because,
again, it's often the school's responsibility, that child, even though they're not coming in.
So how can we meet our responsibility and ensure they're getting some kind of curriculum?
And again, because the videos are on there, they're getting quality teaching,
you know, if they are accessing it.
(37:57):
And that's just obviously something the school would have to monitor.
Do you think you'll ever offer winning with numbers to individuals? Yeah, we do.
There's a school subscription, there's
a tutor subscription and there's an individual parent subscription.
Schools subscribe all the parents and children get access
(38:19):
at home parents don't need to do anything but if
you're part of a school that doesn't subscribe to winning with numbers as a
parent you can subscribe one child that
10 children if you've got that so yeah individual
parents can't subscribe to the winning
with numbers and have access kind of all year round and then
the same for tutors because again there's a
(38:40):
lot of tutors who could move through
the winning with numbers through a program with their with their tutees
and again the parents would be able to access it as well so so
yeah it is offered to individuals too oh that's
really exciting maybe that's one
of the things me or my colleagues might explore with our development allowance
so that we can get better at maths yeah yeah
(39:02):
yeah we've talked about loads of interesting things is there anything that you
haven't had a chance to talk about yet that you'd like our audience to know
i think it's It's important to make the point that there's a lot of negative
press around teaching and a lot of negative press around math,
too, but about the profession.
And I think at every point in my life, working for a very disadvantaged school
(39:24):
in Wales, particularly, and then moving into this winning with numbers,
it is about improving life chances.
Now, all schools will say that out of their vision or on their slogan.
But you know my personal mission
in life if you like is to improve life chances
and i think there's been a lot of investment put into reading
(39:45):
because we know that improves life chances but we also know numeracy improves
life chances and there's been less investment in that which is exactly why we're
doing winner with numbers if you like and we started it because we very much
are about improving life chances.
And we know literacy and numeracy will do exactly that.
(40:06):
Music.
So let's focus on numeracy because there's been less work done in that area.
So, you know, that's my person and I don't want to lose that.
And, you know, if everybody listening is in education, you know,
I would, it's slightly off, but let's not lose the kind of why and the purpose.
(40:26):
It's challenging, journey it's difficult there's a lot of negative prayer
but let's not lose the purpose and the why and for
me it's about improving life chances and so i'm not
going to be negative about that you know and i'm
going to be positive about that you know and i would just encourage everybody
you know wherever they're at in their own personal math journey and whether
in education it's kind of not lose your why and not lose your purpose and and
(40:49):
maintain a positive mindset towards math for education as a whole,
because I think that is kind of slowly deteriorating and we don't want that, you know.
So yeah, that's kind of the last little nugget, I might say.
That's a really nice note to end on. Where can people find Winning North Numbers
(41:10):
and Harden Education if they want to find you?
Yeah. So Winner With Numbers is, we've got a website and that'll give you all
the information you need. And that's www.numbers.com.
So not www, but www.numbers.com, Winner With Numbers.
And that website will give you all the information you need.
And there's a link on there if you wanted a demo or if you wanted an informal
(41:34):
conversation with us about anything we've talked about, you can kind of book
a slot directly into our diary.
So, you know, please do do that.
So, yeah, that's probably the best place to find us.
And then Harden Education, where we provide a lot of leadership,
training and support is hardeneducation.com.
But we talk mainly about winning with numbers, but you can also find us there
(41:56):
at hardeneducation.com.
And we are on Twitter and LinkedIn and Instagram, and it was kind of three stages
there. So please do subscribe on any social followers.
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed it, please follow or subscribe on your
podcast app so you never miss an episode.
You can also watch many of these conversations by heading over to cashalumni.org.uk
(42:17):
and going to the CPD and best practice section of the site.
That's cashalumni.org.uk.
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