Ep 069 Luxury Outdoor Design with Jason Brownlee

In this episode, renown outdoor designer Jason Brownlee shares his extensive experience of over 35 years in the industry and discusses key aspects of designing backyard paradises. The episode covers the design process, the importance of site visits, unique regional challenges, and the integration of different elements like pools, patios, and outdoor kitchens. It also emphasizes the importance of education in the industry and how technologies like in-floor circulation systems, heat-cool pumps, and automation play a role in modern designs. The discussion dives into the creation of family-friendly spaces and the emotional aspects that drive backyard designs. The episode concludes with a segment on ceramic grills, highlighting their versatility and features.

 

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00:00 Welcome to Poolside Perspective Podcast 02:31 Jason's Unique Approach to Pool Design 08:58 Challenges and Rewards of Traveling for Projects 14:01 Understanding Client Needs and Site Specifics 29:04 The Role of Education in Pool Design 36:14 Finding the Right Pool Designer 38:12 Impact of COVID-19 on Pool Design 40:54 Current Trends in Pool Design 43:50 Regional Challenges in Pool Design 46:27 Essential Pool Features and Equipment 49:50 The Importance of Education in the Industry 53:19 Creating Memorable Outdoor Spaces 55:06 Exploring Outdoor Kitchen Options 01:09:03 Final Thoughts and Contact Information  

Episode Transcript

Intro (00:02):
Welcome to Poolside Perspective Podcast.
I'm Mike Farley with Farley Pool Designs.
I'm sure glad you found this podcast.
We're going to talk about everything thathas to do with luxury outdoor living.
I've been designing for 35 years inthe outdoor living and pool industry.
So I understand the challenge you'refacing creating your backyard paradise.

(00:23):
We know your curiosity is notenough to ensure your success.
So on this podcast, we're going to talkabout the design process and practical
steps to help you create that fun space.
We'll have some fun, but this is no flaw.
No one has time for that.
So we're going to get serious and getvery particular on all these topics.
Whether you're a new homeowner with yourfirst remodel or a seasoned homeowner

(00:45):
completing your last three home, wewant to help you end up with what you've
dreamed of from pools to patios, pizzaovens to pergolas, porcelain to pumps,
pool parties to permits, ping pongtables, to the process, to your paradise.
This is straight talk and action steps.
Let's get started.

Mike (01:12):
Mike Farley, Farley pool designs.
And we really have some cool stuffthat's coming up over the next few weeks.
So we got to work on it a little bit.
right now we're actually going torebroadcast, several of the favorite
episodes, so you can enjoy those,while we're on leave of absence,
we'll be back the 1st of February.

(01:33):
And have, some really new, cool stuffthat'll be coming out you can enjoy.
But meanwhile, just wanted tolet you know, we haven't forgot
you and just didn't want to gooff air without an explanation.
but that's what's transpiringover the next couple of weeks.
And we will, look forwardto, seeing you soon.
You can reach out to uson social media still.
you got questions or comments aboutsome of the episodes that we've done in

(01:56):
the past, look forward to the future.
We'll talk with you soon.
Take care.

Kevin (02:00):
Good afternoon, everybody.
This is Kevin Woodhursthere with Mike Farley.
And we have got a fantastic show aheadof you for today because we've got
another special guest in a very welleducated, very experienced pool designer.
And his name is Jason Brownlee.
And I know Mike, you haveknown Jason for a long time.
I'm familiar with Jason.
I've met you online.
We've chatted a few times,but I've not shared space

(02:22):
with you, but I know Mike has.
Oh, yes.
We've broke bread.

Jason (02:26):
Many times.
I look forward to meeting you inperson, hopefully very soon too, Kevin.

Mike (02:31):
So, Jason, I think how I want to start this off is,
You are a unique individual.
So tell us why you're different thanmost people in the pool industry.

Jason (02:42):
Is this the answer?
Where does one begin with that?
Well, it's a broad

Mike (02:47):
platform that you can go from.

Jason (02:48):
What makes you unique?
There you go.
What is it?
I'm a landscape architect.
Similar to you, Mike, I got my degreein that and did what you're supposed
to do with LA for several years, but,uh, found my passion in the residential
side and Did that actually became adesign build contractor for years, and
then had my epiphany moment and gotout of the, out of the construction

(03:11):
side to just focus on design.
And it spent a lot of timegoing through the educational
offerings and building that.
And I also do the, not just design andpictures and graphics, but I also do
the design development drawings, thehydraulics and make sure the systems
work and how the entire projectties in, not just one part of it.

Kevin (03:32):
Your plans are pretty awesome.
I really like, like looking at them.
I'm glad you post them.
It's great for the industry tosee what somebody else is doing.

Jason (03:39):
It's something that not a lot of designers do, that part of the work.
And it's something I like toshow that this is important,
that it is done as well.
And a lot of companies I'veseen don't even do them at all.
So it's a good part to be able to havethat set of drawings and data behind it.
So design something creative.
How do you then make it work?

Mike (03:57):
So explain to a homeowner, most people in the pool industry
draw two dimensional scale drawing,what I call conceptual drawing.
And so what you do is you take itbeyond that, so explain to them what
the difference is between what you'redrawing, what a typical designer may be
drawing, and then the final set that youproduce, what all's the differences there.

Jason (04:18):
So from the concept side or through all the design development drawings?

Mike (04:21):
Yeah, so design development, they don't understand what that means.
Okay.
I don't think.
I think it would really help themto understand what you're doing.
Which is what that process is.

Jason (04:30):
So what I do and offer my clients is we'll do the, what most people think
traditional design is when we come out,that's what I'll call my concept stage.
Right.
And we're coming out, meeting witha client, going over what desires
are, looking at the house, lookingat the site, get the feel for what
potential we can make through there.
And then through that phase, we comeup with a do everything is 3d model and

(04:51):
build it out so you can really see it andunderstand what's happening with that.
And what sort of traditional thoughtthough, is, you know, here's the plan, the
graphics and the vision, we're creatinga vision and here's what it can be.
But a lot of designers leave off at that.
A lot of companies leave off at that.
And then you sign a contract and thedesigner disappears and there's no other
part of it goes on to the next one.

(05:12):
And it gets passed off.
But too often, the vision gets Skewedas it goes from person to person
through the company or whatever.
And what I like to do is then preparethe design development drawings,
which are how you define what'sactually happening in the design.
The pretty drawings are the graphicswe produce in concept stage, but the

(05:33):
technical drawings are where we'reshowing sections and details and
drawing all the hydro, all the plumbinglines that go in and then putting the
engineering behind the plumbing linewith the velocities and flow rates.
And pipe sizes and equipment and howthe equipment lays out and what all
the pieces are and how it all ties in.
So we do all of those drawings, usuallyabout a 10 or 15 page set of construction

(05:58):
drawings, basically how it lays out.
And then that becomes the guidelineso that all the details of the design
are then transposed over to theconstruction team that's making it happen.

Mike (06:08):
So I go to Ikea and I get my sofa to put together.
You create the instructions forhow to put the pool together.
All the drawings, every single pieceof it all goes together so that the
concept, the beauty, the vision doesn'tget messed up by the contractor as
it's put in and the communication isthorough throughout the whole thing.

Jason (06:31):
And it's not, it's not that they don't, but oftentimes the
contractor will do a good job, butit's the vision that's created, that's
has the envision from the beginning.
And if it's the game of what telephone,when you're, you know, a kid, you
play and you whisper in someone'sear and it goes down to, uh, you
know, what did he say about timesix or seven people get back to you?
It's completely different message.

(06:51):
And that's what happens all the timeis you have something in vision, but
if you're not the one that designed it.
And you're not putting it on and makingsure it works and knowing all the details.
Yes, it can happen and here's how, thenit can easily get, say, someone else tries
to interpret it and that interpretationmay miss something completely or
take it off in a different direction.
And then the landscaper comes in anddoes something and whatever else, and

(07:14):
you go back to the job afterwards, you'regoing, Oh my God, what were you thinking?
That's what we try to avoid.

Kevin (07:19):
So obviously our show is geared towards and directed at the homeowners.
And so the message I want them tohear here on this is that part of what
designers do is we create whole plans.
We create master plans, if you will.
And what Jason's talking about, unlessI misunderstood you, is oftentimes

(07:39):
you get a pool salesperson, they showyou a 2D plan or a 3D plan, and you're
expected to sign off or sign a contracton this without really knowing all
the ins and outs and the innuendos.
Uh, really what pool construction is,and I think Mike would agree that in the
last, just even the last 10 years, so muchhas changed in our industry, it's really

(08:00):
like, you're taking a big risk signingsomething when you don't really know
exactly what it is that you're getting.
What you're doing is creating a setof plans that, okay, yeah, here it is.
Here's the whole kit and caboodle.
It doesn't leave anythingup for interpretation.

Jason (08:14):
Correct.
And that goes for a lot of reasons.
And even when you're meeting withthe contractors and going through
the process, we'll bring subsin the office and go through the
hydraulics and go through the details.
And there are a lot of things thatyou start saying, Oh, this pipe
is three inch or a four inch here.
And that's, Oh, we did typically atwo inch or whatever on that end.
And I'll say, well, look at.

(08:34):
open a spreadsheet and show, well,look what happens if you put a two
inch here, the flow rates throughthis and your velocities go up.
And it's, and a lot of timesthey go, Oh, I didn't know, it's
just what they've always done.
But when you put it on the truck, right?
Yeah.
Chuck in a truck right now.
So once you can show them what that doesand the reason why everything works,
that goes a long way to making surethat it happens and doesn't just get

(08:56):
done the way they've always done it.

Mike (08:58):
One of the things I think is really neat is you are based in Nashville.
That's a great place in the centerof the country and everything
like that, but you're one ofthe few designers that travels.
You don't work just in Nashville.

Jason (09:12):
I get grief for that at times from people, but yes, I'm a wanderer.
I enjoy the travel.
I enjoy seeing all thedifferent areas of the country.
I enjoy working with differentpeople and different personalities
and just going and experiencing.
All the different things andall the different places.

Mike (09:28):
So are there certain places you won't go?
Do you stay out of California or Arizonaor is there certain places that you

Jason (09:36):
go to everywhere?
I've done everything from Malibu,California to done all over Texas.
Done a lot in Florida.
Some of the Caribbean.
I did one in Spain last year.
That was fun.
A couple up in New England area and Maine.
So anyway, all over the place.
I haven't gone up in the, in Montana yet,but actually I've got one in Idaho I'm

(09:57):
talking to, so I guess I'm headed to that.

Kevin (09:59):
Kevin, your home state.
Brings up a couple things.
Number one for me, and these are acouple of questions we had for you
anyway, because Mike and I, we stayin DFW, we're not going anywhere else.
We're committed to that at this point.
When you go to another place, especiallya place where you maybe haven't
built before, How are you findingresources to get these projects built?

Jason (10:18):
An excellent question.
And that's one of the hardparts is they're so everything
is different everywhere.
And that's actually one ofthe more fun parts as well.
When you really get to seedifferent perspectives.
That's the name of your Uh, podcast, but,but when you go to a job down here in,
in let's say Southern Georgia, you'regoing to get a whole different type of
clients and a type of contractor than youdo when you're working up in Boston or

(10:43):
when you go out to California or Texas.
So it's very different peopleand different experiences that
you're able to do from that.
I do have a pretty extensive network.
I'm a part of Watershed University.
I teach through that and I'vegot a lot of connections with
different contractors and different.
People really from allover the country as well.
So if I don't already have a connectionor someone specific that I'm working

(11:06):
for or with in a space that I canpull from some different resources and
groups that I work in nationally tomake some calls and see who's good.
And

Kevin (11:16):
so your design team, then if you have a new pool that you're specking
out and designing and building, it's inBuffalo, New York, let's say, then your
design team and you guys are going inand researching all the codes, all the
licensing requirements, all the specificsabout building in that particular area.
I'm guessing you do all that, too.

Jason (11:36):
Yes, we do.
In fact, I mean, you could eventake that from a macro that you're
talking down to a micro of just herein Nashville, that the codes for each
community are completely different.
Wherever you go, you're going to haveto go, whether I'm in three miles.
to the south or five miles to the north.
One community only cares about drainage.
The next guy only cares about thesetback lines and soil conditions come

(11:59):
in from another one where others don't.
You've got where the first thing to dois really research all of the rules,
all of the issues, and then know ifit's climactic issues and what you've
got that you guys don't have the bestsoils in the world where you are.
So that's a major concern in that space.
You go up in the north, you've gotfrost depths and things to play in.
So you brought up again, do all yourhomework on the front end so that you're.

(12:21):
Answering that.
And we do a lot of commercial as well.
So commercial design and youget into health department
issues and all that stuff.
And every state is different.
So it's just research on the front end.

Kevin (12:30):
So you brought up a good point earlier, cause I have spent a lot of
time in Arizona and I've done somepools in North Carolina, Florida.
And actually Southern California,the reality is you brought
up a really good point.
Everybody is so different, even inNespa, which up in the Northeast, which
I used to do some training up there.
Everybody in the different specificparts of the country, the contractors

(12:51):
and the people, it's very different.
It becomes weird unlessyou really dealt with it.
Because you make this assumption thateverybody's going to be the same and it
couldn't be any farther from the truth.

Jason (13:01):
To me, that's the most fun.
I think that's cool.
I love that.
It's all the different, you get awell rounded experience and understand
and get people's different mindset.
An example, I've got a client in Richmond,Virginia, and you go there and, you know,
meet with them and they are hardcore.
You have to, everything you believeyou have to cover a pool, every
single pool should be covered nomatter what, you can't believe you

(13:24):
wouldn't even consider a cover.
And then I go to one in Raleigh, NorthCarolina, it's about four hours away.
I've got there and they're like,why would you cover what's your, you
know, you don't need to do that here.
What's the, it's different, literallythree and a half hours, four hour drive.
And you're across the state line andthe entire industry mindset changes.

Mike (13:42):
So when you travel with doing projects, there's some people I
know that do projects in differentareas, but they don't go to the site.
They just get a set of documents.
They might send them a videoor something like that.
Do you work that way?
Or do you go to sites to.

Jason (14:00):
It's a very good question.
So I am a huge believer in you have to goand experience the site and feel it and
stand there and feel the sun and see theangles and feel the breeze around you.
And you're going to understand it thenwhen you design it, if you go and you
just get a video or look at it from anaerial, you're going to miss something and

(14:22):
it could be something that makes that jobunique and special beyond anything else.
And it's really, what's the,get past the mindset most
people have of I don't travel.
And what's, it's a, an airplanetrip and a hotel for a day and back.
It's not a huge expense.
It's not an enormous expense.
It's not a big deal.
You go, you spend some time, youmeet some people, you're having
good drinks and dinner with someinteresting clients and contractors.

(14:46):
And you've spent a few minutes.
Really having some spending on time andunderstanding the client, understanding
the architecture of a house that'seither built or being built and
understanding the site and the assets,the limitations, good, the bad, the ugly,
that's when that one thing will come out.
You say, Ooh, I'm going tobuild off that, whatever it is.
Then you can have a unique design thatisn't a boiler plate or cookie cutter.

Mike (15:08):
So you don't do the same design 15 times a year?

Jason (15:12):
The rectangles can come in all different shapes.
Quite honestly, I follow your work.
You don't do a lot of rectangles.
It's not my style personally.
I will on more Southern traditionalor formal, but I typically like to
find the spatial theme that fits.
the architectural style and the client inthe house and do some, I love circular.

(15:35):
I love doing some reallyinteresting, so angulars are fun.

Mike (15:39):
Well, yeah, I've just noticed with your designs, there's a lot of,
still a lot of geometric leaning,but it's not just the rectangle.
There's curves and architectural radiusesand lots of offsets and things like that.
They add a lot of creativity to the space.
They're interesting.

Jason (15:58):
Yeah, it's fun to push the envelope and see what it can be.
You work with terracing, with grades,and then how do you start, you
know, it's not just a plan on paper.
You get where the elevations come in andyou can start feathering it into the land
and then making how different shapes.
You know, superimpose on each other,how the integration works between them.
Get creative and have fun with it.

(16:18):
And don't just be blocked into arectangle like a lot of people do.
How much stuff can we shove inone rectangle and call it a pool?

Mike (16:26):
I think a lot of clients don't realize there's
opportunities to do other things.
And I think you do a good jobof communicating and educating
them of their possibilities.
We have a reference group of peoplethat submit questions and we mentioned
that you were going to be talking todayand one of the questions that came
from Moses was, is there a projectthat's too small for you to work on?

Jason (16:49):
Not that's too small to do a lot like physical space thing.
I do a lot in the 30 a Florida wherebasically you're designing bathtubs
and little bitty tiny spaces.
You can be more creative and have moreunique design opportunities in tiny
spaces than you can in large ones, becauseyour material palette can get so much.

(17:12):
Better, but you're not designing thousandsquare feet of decking or whatever.
It may be 150 square feet of decking.
So you can do pretty muchany material you want to use.
Let's try some different things anddifferent tiles, different wall.
Every comes in where you can get amuch more creative in tight spaces.
So physically your limitations on that.
I love working in, insmall spaces as well.

(17:36):
The question is more aboutbudget wise or whatever.
I'll also sort of answer on that end.
There's a lot you can do in design itself.
Doesn't have to be super expensive.
It's how the shapes work and how thespaces integrate with each other.
But that's not a cost item.
It's more the materials andfinishes and what you end up doing
with it that can come into play.

(17:56):
It's got to be a decent project.
Not there isn't a limit ora minimum that it has to be.
Try and make it creative.
Awesome.
For the best space it can be.

Mike (18:05):
No.
I think people ask me what is themost challenging project to do and
I always tell them it's the smaller.
Wide open.
It is.
The smaller it is, the more challengingit is because every inch counts.
Yeah.
But people treat it more like aroom than they do the outdoors.
So they're decorating the walls andthe floor and the whole nine yards.
So it's a lot of fun.

Kevin (18:25):
One of the things I wanted to just reiterate, because you said it
very distinctly, has to do with the factthat it's important to me, I know it's
important to Mike, it's one of the reasonswhy we don't do anything away from here.
But it has to do with seeing thesite, feeling the site, smelling
the site, understanding the site.
In the past, probably 10 or 15 years,there's been a proliferation of

(18:47):
companies that only do plans, butmany of them have never seen the site.
And I find it a little fascinatingthat a company, let's just say
based out of California, can designa project for Pennsylvania and
Pittsburgh somewhere that's neverbeen there and have some expectation.
And this is the expectationportion that's really important

(19:08):
to me for a homeowner that they'regoing to be able to build this.
In fact, I dealt with onelast year in Louisville.
That had a plan from a companyout of California, but it wasn't
even buildable because they didn'tknow anything about the site.
And I think that what happens ishomeowners think, I can just pay
to have this plan done by somebodyelse, I'm going to save money.
In reality, time is money too, andyou're not going to save anything.

(19:30):
The ideal situation is.
You're working with a designer thathas been on site, that understands the
prospect and the process of buildingand constructing these swimming pools.

Jason (19:41):
I'll even take it further than see the site, I think
you have to see the house.
Oh, great.
The house is really mykey driver to a design.
What's the architecturestyle of the house?
Do you know the architecturalstyle of the house?
So they know what it is.
What are the details that make that sense?
style work, where the views fromthe living areas, how can you make
the out the end and the in the outthat it ties in and turns together.

(20:03):
And if you don't know if you can't standin the living room or the spaces and
really all the where the windows are andknow how it's going to relate to the site.
And how you can blur that linebetween in and out, then you've
missed the boat on what that is.
So, same concept.
Absolutely.
You can't get that withpictures, don't do it.
No, even with house

Kevin (20:22):
plans and a topo and, uh, pictures, it's different to be there
and experience it than it is to seeit in some sort of digital format
and try to, They interpret it.

Jason (20:32):
And then the client, three things I look at in every single
project is understand the client, knowthe house inside and out, and what are
the assets, limitations of the site.
All three come together and are vitallyimportant that if you just go and
don't really have a conversation witha client or maybe a five minute talk,
or you just checklist your things downand then draw something up, you're
going to miss what makes them tick.

(20:53):
What's important to them?
How are they going to use it?
What's their motivating factor?

Kevin (20:56):
Which brings up another question that we talked about earlier.
And that is, is there aparticular type of customer?
That you prefer, that you like, that tendsto work better with you, that you have
better results or more successful resultsas a result of their personality type.

Jason (21:10):
Fun ones?
I don't know.
Let's answer that.
Go ahead.

Mike (21:14):
Enjoy going out to dinner and having a enjoyable conversation with them,

Jason (21:17):
right?
So one thing I teach in the classes Ido is don't be a checklist designer.
Don't go in there and just be like,I'm going to ask these six questions
and mark off what they say andregurgitate out and boom, here's
a dot matrix printed out design.
It's when you really get toknow them that things open up.
Right, where you understand who they are.
And yeah, go to dinner, have drinks,understand that, what, get that,

(21:41):
what it takes to get the guard down.
Because they come in, they'reskeptical typically when, you
know, they meet, there's reasonsfor that and there's a wall.
But if you can break through that wall andget down and say, look, I'm designing for
you, I've actually had this some with moreof the celebrity type clients as well.
When you get through the, they're peopleand there's always a scale between the

(22:01):
two, but when you can get past themand talk to them, look, you've got your
world, it's your whatever life out here.
That's not how you live.
Let's talk about how you live your lifeand your everyday and your kids play
and go down the street and watch just.
That's how you want this to becreated for, so whether it's any
client, how do you, uh, find theirmotivating factor and dive into that?

Mike (22:21):
So we've talked about this before, but you try to understand the emotion
of the space that they want to create.
And that's not somethingyou get off a checklist.
So you have to understand how they feelabout certain things and stuff like that.
That's a skill that a lot of peopledon't know how to bring out of a person.

(22:43):
And it's something that takesa little bit of time, I'd say.

Kevin (22:46):
You've got to be good at talking.
I've talked a lot, so

Jason (22:50):
there's that on me, but yes, you have to be able to carry
a conversation and really, morethan anything, be interested and
just be interested in their life.
You don't need to be talkingabout bulls all the time.
Talk about their kids andwhat they're into and their
likes and what's their future.
How do they enjoy themselves?
And they can just ask them a couple ofleading questions and let them, once you

(23:10):
can let people talk about what they love.
And it just opens up at that point andyou go down rabbit holes and then all
of a sudden that what you hear themsay in one rabbit hole will end up
being the, the key to an entire designthat wasn't mentioned in a checklist.

Mike (23:23):
So when you go through your design process, is there someone that
inspires you at this point in yourcareer or is it more about getting
inspiration from experiences or?
How do you get your inspiration?

Jason (23:41):
Honestly, what I get a lot of my thoughts and views and inspiration,
vision from is from travel, is fromgoing to different places and seeing
things in different styles anddifferent, whether it's a resorts and
an example I did several years agonow, but I, we did a, uh, my wife and
I did a weekend down in South beachand Miami and I spent one morning.

(24:01):
She sleeps in late.
I'm an early riser.
So I just went.
Down the entire South Beach, all ofthem went to every, it was early in
the mornings, the staffs where they'recleaning pools, whatever, I just snuck in
the, so basically every single pool downthe thing, took some pictures and saw
different styles and different things.
And then I, multiple times I'llpull up to pictures from that.
I'll pull up, say, Ooh, I rememberthis kind of has a feeling

(24:22):
of what that space was like.
So I'll go back and pull that up.
So different, I did went to aresort in Mexico years ago that.
I had a, a big project that just feltlike the, some of the similar, the
architecture was similar, the client hadthe, he wanted that same kind of vibe.
I was able to pull from those experiences,done some traveling overseas, Italy and

(24:42):
Spain and the like, and you can pull someclassical elements and see some of the
details that have been used for centuriesand they worked then, they work now.

Mike (24:50):
So.
So your latest trip toJapan, any inspiration there?

Jason (24:55):
Oh, God.
They're talking about Japanese gardens.
You won't see what's insane.
I'm actually writing an article on thatnow with the Watershed Magazine with Eric.
Hopefully that'll be coming outin the next couple of months.
But just the asymmetrical, how todesign where it's not that classical
and how to design where everything isin perfect harmony with each other.
And that was an incredible experience.

Mike (25:14):
So your son's over there in school?

Jason (25:17):
He is.
Yeah.
He's studying computer sciences.
He's a sophomore in college anddecided he wanted to spend his year
over in Japan, which was awesome.
But he just decided,that's what I want to do.
Yes.
Sign me up.
So

Mike (25:29):
you get to get another visit in before he comes back.
So we just

Jason (25:32):
now done two.
So we took him over there in Augustand that was the initial one.
And we went all the way.
We started in Southern tip of Japan andwent all the way up to Tokyo through
the historical through Kyoto andHiroshima and all the different spaces.
We just went again.
Back in early January and saw him,that trip was more about just seeing
him and catching up with my boy.
But we did a few gardens and a fewthings in the city and all that

(25:55):
and then did Australia after that.
So it was a fun trip.

Kevin (25:57):
Oh, Australia.
That's a different

Jason (25:59):
one.

Kevin (26:00):
So you've been around the pool industry a very long
time, like both Mike and I have.
And one of the questions I have Probably

Jason (26:07):
not as long as Mike, but

Kevin (26:10):
Well, a while.
You've been around a while.
So A few minutes.
One of the questions we hadwas, you've been around a while,
the industry has changed a lot.
I've talked about how it's morphedjust since COVID, but what are some
of the biggest differences thatyou've seen, say in the past 20 years?
So between 2024 and 2004, whatare you doing now differently?

(26:34):
On literally all of your projects,which all of us are doing.

Mike (26:37):
But one of the questions, is it harder to do it today or
was it harder to do it then?

Jason (26:42):
I started in 02 in the industry, literally that 20,
what is it, 22 years or so.
Yeah, 22 years, give or take.
More dramatically, I do remember whenwe first started, I was a hand drawer,
hand drafter, et cetera, on that.
There you go, there's my man.
Still at it.
Still at it.
I do too.
So I do it by hand, but there wasn'tthere a computer option in that aspect.

(27:06):
Then when that kind of came in startingin 05, 06, I think is when the start, sort
of the beginning of computer modeling hitthe industry and I fought it for a minute.
I liked my markers and rendering andeverything else, but I adapted as well.
They started doing the graphic models,et cetera, and got pretty good at that.
But that was one of the biggest changes towhere you, where a client can really see

(27:29):
what it is versus even in highly renderedand whatever else it doesn't matter if
you're doctors, lawyers, whatever, most.
People can't read plans and understand it,so they get that blank look of, Oh, okay.
Yeah.
They don't know what you're doing.

Mike (27:42):
Even with pretty colored markers, they still don't get it.

Jason (27:45):
Get out.
It's me.
I'm with you.
So.
It's fascinating

Kevin (27:48):
that 25, 30 years ago, even 22 years ago, we were still
drawing with pencil and paper.
And a lot of times at somebody'sdining room table 2D plan.
I just find it fascinatingthat the industry as a whole
was able to sell anything.
Now I did it hundreds and hundredsof pulls that way, but now with the
technology, it's such a stark contrast.

Jason (28:10):
Well, I think one of the positives and negatives of it, one of the negatives
of it is if you can run a computer now,you can do a design and it, and there's a
lot of designers or drafters, especiallyout there that don't really understand.
Good design and the principledesign, because before you had to
have a training or architecturedegree or whatever to be in it, and

(28:32):
now it's you can run a computer.
That's what a lot of people,you know, get hired to do.
And that's a lot of whatin the classes we teach.
That's where we're trying to aim for ishere's, you've got to, everyone's got a
tool now that can be used and shown, butyou've got to have, you understand good
principle design and the why behind it.
And then how do we make that come aliveand use the tool to its maximum benefit?

(28:54):
That's been one of the biggest changesI think in the, at least from the design
side of the industry, there's all kindsof equipment sides and whatever else, but
yeah, it's changed a lot on that side.

Kevin (29:04):
Well, and now, I mean, the difference between 25 years
ago is the amount of educationalopportunities that are available.
You're teaching now, Mike's teaching now,there's plenty of opportunity out there.
And I know we have a lot of listenersthat are in the industry that maybe are
just drafters or are just pool designers.
And I think a lot of them are asking,how do we get that experience?
Cause we don't work for a pool company.

(29:24):
Yeah.
They need to get intothe educational system.
And I definitely agree with it aswell as if you're not going to get an
educated one way or the other, thenyou're missing the boat big time.

Jason (29:33):
Yeah.

Mike (29:34):
I've got a question which relates to that.
I don't know.
Why are you passionate about education?
Because you are passionateabout education.
It shows.
Yes.
And, and I appreciate, I teach,I appreciate a good instructor
probably more than anybody becauseI've been the instructor as well.
You're very good at what youdo, but I know you do it because

(29:54):
you're passionate about it.
But why?

Jason (29:56):
I'll tell a story to answer that question.
Perfect.
I like stories.
When I started, I mentioned before I didwhat traditional landscape architecture
and didn't like it and got into theresidential side and learned quickly.
It was, I became a design build guy.
And designed and had a companyand did that for 10, 12 years
and built a lot of stuff.
And all along that time, I would seeingthe educational offerings that were there.

(30:19):
And I never did it.
I just kept doing it my way and whatever.
And towards that 08, years, it washidden walls and not getting frustrated
and stuck in ruts and kept doingthings that weren't being profitable.
Didn't understand why.
What's happening?
I'm stuck and I can't get out of it.
And I finally started taking,I took my first class at that

(30:41):
point, I think it was 2010.
And it was a design class in oneof the engineering classes you had,
because I, you know, wanted to jumpoff in something I felt was safe.
And it just was a nightand day opportunity.
It opened up a ton of Open up a differentworld that I saw that sort of answer a lot
of my questions, but more importantly itIntroduced me to all these great people
from all over the country many of thethe same guys were doing stuff that Were

(31:05):
things I couldn't figure out and that'sa lot of the professors I'm one of them
now, but give your cell phone number.
You got a question.
Give me a call We'll just we'lltalk through it help you out any
way I can whatever and I use thatAnd once I was in, man, I jumped in.
I took every class you couldtake from about 2010 to 2014, 15.
And it completely reinvented my career.

(31:26):
I went from design build, just went todesign and ended up moving to Nashville
kind of as a result of that great place.
And that is the educational opportunitiesthat I had to the industry are complete.
What made me.
What I am, gave me the potentialand the opportunities that took
me to completely different levels.
One thing I love in design too,is my teacher class, just the

(31:47):
basic design class is seeing thelight come on in student's eyes.
And especially I was saying, see the worldthrough design eyes is what I generally
call that when, especially contractorswho don't have design background,
come in and take the design class.
They start with saying, whatever,I'm not going to do this at all.
You know, whitey stuff, emotional.
We're going to cry and whatever,when they were usually talking about

(32:09):
concrete specs and rebar distances.
But when you start to see it andunderstand it, and then have a
language to be able to use that totalk and understand the why behind
stuff, it's like a light comes on.
And that has been the most rewardingthing really of all, to see that
when they can understand it, that,ah, now I know why we do what we do.
Not just how we do what we do.

(32:31):
That's the collaboration

Kevin (32:32):
by association.
Love it.

Mike (32:35):
This is another question that got asked, which I think, do
you remember a project that youwere working on that changed your
thought process about the design?

Jason (32:45):
That changed the thought process about design?

Kevin (32:48):
Yeah, on how you did your design work.
It sounds like you had that epiphany aboutthe same time you started taking classes.

Jason (32:55):
Yeah, it really was.
Yeah.
It hits that, it basically turnedout to where I don't have to be
the one to build it all and I canwork as a team with people and make
it come together, which is nice.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I mean, I've done some interestingprojects and push the limits and do
some cool stuff in there, but I don'tknow if I'd say I had one project that
changed my, at an epiphany moment of.

(33:17):
That a project did, but.
Okay,

Mike (33:19):
I answered the question and so.
There you go.
There you go.
So, when you're, are trying tofind somebody, okay, they're trying
to find somebody to work on theirproject, how do you think they
ought to look for that person?

Jason (33:34):
I think they're buying, when a homeowner is looking for someone,
it's a scary entity, you're going inthere, there's a lot that's out there,
and really, I say this in my class allthe time, other than the purchase of
a house, this is the second biggestinvestment you're going to make, it's
more than kids college tuitions, it'smore than lavish vacations, it's more
than opulent weddings, it's more,all of those things combined, it's a

(33:56):
big deal, and a lot of companies use.
Don't see that in that light.
A lot of pool builders just look at itas this is project number 24 dash one Oh
nine, and we're going to the Smiths today.
And tomorrow we'll be at the Joneses.
The next day we'll be at the whatever.
And this is something thatreally matters to the client.
And you have to make sure you'vegot the right person that gets them.

(34:20):
And get you and whether that's fromthe design standpoint and or the
contractor standpoint is you want it tobe considered as what's most important.
It really is the project and whatthe potential is and how to draw that
out for them and find ways to makethem how they live and connect them.
And it ends up addingvalue to the site as well.
And you can read that in people if theygo in there and they just checklist.

(34:41):
Okay.
And spit it back out.
They may not really be getting you yet.
But if your conversations you have withyour designer that go through there and
it goes through gets deep with you andtalks through you, you have that feeling
of, I really connected with that person.
This is a relationship and they'rebuying you and they're buying
the vision that you're creatingthat's going to be special.
And it needs to be homework on that.

(35:02):
And don't just look for dollars on that.

Mike (35:05):
So you're suggesting that they just need to talk to a lot of different
people to find that connection.

Jason (35:12):
Let's say a homeowner is interviewing different builders and
different designers to be able to do it.
They'll have another, you know,do your research beforehand,
know who's got reputations andgood and bad and otherwise.
But really, when you have those initialconcepts, and this is before a design,
the designer should charge for design.
So you want to, you know, do your work toknow who you're getting, who you're hiring
to do the work and understand that you'rebuying into each other at that point.

(35:35):
Definitely do your homework.
Cause there's a lot that if you'rejust looking at who's least expensive
or, you know, it's talking bottomdollar stuff, you want someone
who's got a vision and it's goingto understand what the potential is.
And maybe it's something that pushesthe envelope and goes further than
what you're initially thinking, butmaybe that becomes a master plan.
You're going to be there 15,20 years, 10 years, whatever.

(35:56):
Maybe you do, you know, phase twoand think through where it's going
to be, not just stick a bull in youryard, slap some concrete around it.
All of the day, how you live, how you,how you operate, what is potential,
what are the, your kids are goingto grow older, what happens then?

Mike (36:10):
So, I'm still, I'm a dog with a bone here.
Okay.

Jason (36:14):
Yes.

Mike (36:14):
How do they research that?
So, I'm trying to find somebody.
And how do people find you?

Jason (36:21):
A lot of what I get is referral and a lot is ones where I'm, I've
got website and whatever on that too.
But a lot of, I do put a lot ofstuff out on social media, Facebook,
Instagram, put some of the work we do,interact and see and that's a good.
Way to start and look and find.

Mike (36:38):
Okay.
I want to go back to

Jason (36:40):
say something I'm not getting to there.

Mike (36:43):
Oh, I'll come back.

Kevin (36:44):
You're going to come back to it?
He's going to get it fromme one way or the other.
So I want to go back to another

Mike (36:48):
question, but you keep going.
So you mentioned Watershape University.
Yes, is that a goodresource to start with?

Jason (36:55):
There you go.
Okay, because the

Mike (36:56):
homeowners don't know they don't know this stuff Okay, so they're
looking and they're trying to findhow do I find a qualified person?
I don't know I'm not in DFW So I'mnot gonna deal with these two guys
that are talking here And I don'tknow if Jason might be the guy for
me But in my particular area ofthe country, is there somebody?
That's your local that I canreach out to that's qualified

(37:19):
to start with this project.

Jason (37:21):
There we are.
That's what I was leaping off.
Yes.
Being part of a national organizationthat really is how you do it.
Watershape university is.
What I'm a part of, we actuallyteach an outreach of that.
It's called Elevate that ChadChristensen and I, one of my builders
here in Nashville put together.
The beginning stage, some of theclasses that are talking about more

(37:42):
the basics stuff, then you get into theadvanced in the Watershed University.
But WU is an excellent resource tosee who takes part in those classes,
who are the ones that are betteringthemselves and moving forward as
they're pushing to learn and be betterand not just throwing stuff out.
If they're members of thatand they're on that pursuit,

(38:03):
that's a very good opportunity.

Mike (38:05):
Excellent

Jason (38:05):
resource for people.

Kevin (38:07):
My question earlier was pretty broad between 2024 and 2004.
So just Mike and I both agreethat since COVID, a lot changed.
So from your perspective, what changedfrom pre COVID to post COVID in our
industry with all of us as pool designers?
Because it seems like a lot changed.

(38:29):
Everything got a little bit more complex.
People were looking for, we're notjust looking for a pool now, we're
looking for a place to spend everysingle evening or weekend, such as a
staycation destination or something.
But in your mind, what has really changed?
Because in my mind, we're dealingwith much bigger projects that are
more complex than ever before, as webring the inside out and the outside

(38:50):
in and create these incredible spaces.

Jason (38:53):
You know, when COVID, it's funny when COVID hit, it was already
a good time in the industry, butfairly normally just been growth
had been steady across the industry.
And when COVID hit, I remember thatweek, March 5th, whatever it was,
every single person just stoppedcontracts that a lot of my builders had.
Everyone said, just stop, cancel, stop.

(39:14):
Don't do anything.
And everything that what's going tohappen in this world falling apart, etc.
And that lasted about three weeks.
And then whatever that third Mondayor fourth Monday in March that year,
it was like the phone started ringing.
All right, we're doing this.
Everyone's already sick ofgetting cabin fever in their
house for a few weeks already.
Everything that we had been doingthat we traveled and did whatever

(39:36):
we can't do, we're going to startputting it in our house and our yard.
And It put a huge emphasis on family andon creating your own little oasis, part of
the world that you could control and sell.
And it just took the entire industryacross the country by storm as yes, all of
our projects went to a whole nother level.

(39:57):
But I think that one of the biggestthings we're looking at is it's
not just a pool in a backyard.
It became how do you createthe outdoor living experience?
And a lot of, especially a lot ofpeople had been traveling before,
all of a sudden, as soon as you can'ttravel, then it makes you want to
travel even more than you did, becausenow someone's telling you can't.
And they would see all the things,okay, we can't go, let's do it

(40:19):
for ourselves, let's put it inour yard, let's make it happen.
It brought how all the elements cometogether, the earth, wind, fire, water,
how it touches your senses and createsspaces that draw you into them and
keep you there and create communityand family, and then everyone enjoys
it together, became really the mantra.
We

Kevin (40:35):
almost went from being pool designers to being outdoor
living designers, which is awhole lot more on the ballot.

Jason (40:43):
I agree.
Yes.
From day one.
Yeah.
It's one of the, you're not pool designer.
You're creating anoutdoor living experience.
The pool is an important partof it, but it's just part.
It's a component.
Yep.
So

Mike (40:54):
are there any current trends in our industry that are taking place?
With design, with materials,equipment, anything that you see
that's really neat that's comingaround and you enjoy implementing.

Jason (41:09):
I do think that a lot of the mindset is getting away from what we
were saying before, just put a pulland Call it a day and developing how it
all ties in together and the design isfar more important than it used to be.
I think that equipment wise and industrywise there's so much more that's
available and offered out there thanit used to be and how that goes not

(41:31):
just from the systems of the pool andhow that ties in but how that works
with the outdoor living and the outdoorkitchen becomes an important spot.
The grill systems andpizza ovens come into play.
There's so many.
Things, the entire backyard becomes aplayground as opposed to a swimming pool.

Mike (41:50):
So when you work on projects from a design standpoint, are you,
you do design, develop all thesepieces or do you collaborate and are
part of a team or is it case by casethey're different or how does it work?

Jason (42:04):
When I work with clients anywhere, I generally try and work
with, as part of a three person team,with me as the designer, with the
homeowner as the second spoke, or thesecond person, and then the contractor.
And then we work together to workthat into a design that fits their
lifestyle, something that the contractorcan build and work off each other.

(42:25):
On that side, as far as in house, what wedo for the drawings, we do have a team.
I've got several employees, Hunteris one of my main guys that does
a lot of the drawings and a lot ofthe technical drawing stuff, all
the hydraulics and plumbing andhe's the primary and all that stuff.
And then I've got Dakota that does a lotof the modeling and stuff on that end.

(42:46):
So we have a really strong team in housethat we do, but then we work out of
that with the contractor teams and, andthen Elmwater depends on where we are.

Mike (42:54):
So do you design the, I would say the pool house structure,
secondary structures and buildings,that type of situation as well?

Jason (43:04):
We do.
Yeah, we get into that a lot as well.
Cause you're, honestly, most designs Ihave some sort of a structure, whether
it's a, a pavilion is my favorite with asolid roof, giving you respite away from
the sun and something that you can sortof go out to and turn you around and then
experience your entire backyard space.
It's ideal, but we get into thearchitectural elements of that,

(43:25):
whether it's a addition to the home,extension to, or its own developed
space, pool house, complete.
We do a lot of that as well.
Dakota does some of the, he has anarchitecture degree, a master's in that.
So he does a good bit of that.
And then I do some work with, also alot with Paul Boulevard, an architect
that teaches on the Genesis side.
So he and I work really well.
Great answer.

Mike (43:46):
One question, and you can speak to this probably more than others.
There's different parts of the countrythat create different challenges, and
you mentioned the Frost Line on one, andyou've done a lot of work in Florida.
Is there certain things thathomeowners should be looking for as
they're going through their processthat they need to be aware of?

(44:07):
If they've got coastalareas or high flood plains.
I don't know.
I work in DFW, so I knowall the weird things.
That we have to dealwith here, but everything

Jason (44:18):
is bigger in Texas.
Yeah.

Mike (44:19):
There's some truth to that.

Jason (44:21):
So I've got a couple of Texas projects are the
biggest that are out there.
I've seen

Mike (44:26):
both of those.
And that was pretty tremendous.
Although anyway, I'll tell anAggie joke, but anyway, is there.
Again, I can't speak for Boston orFlorida or North Carolina or Virginia,
is there certain things they shouldthink of or that's, you know, you
draw from the contractor that worksin that area or how do you go about

(44:49):
figuring those things out, I guess.

Jason (44:51):
So a lot of it is the regional things that are important.
You get, like, so you get down to Floridaand the coastal and you get into the
different type of structures that arerequired from an hurricane, elements
that tie in, especially on the verticalstructures and come into play inside the
coastal wetlands, play in a lot of that.
Every place is different.
So every spot has its own uniquechallenges, its own unique thing.

(45:13):
It's hard to say whatone is without specific.
Things like you've been doing jobsout in California is a completely
different experience from a clientelefrom a code requirement thing.
Every bit of it is different when you,when I've done some out there versus
Louisiana or Southern Mississippi.
And sometimes it's based on the, thecontractors themselves and what they're.

(45:34):
Abilities are and sometimes it'sregional preferences and sometimes those
preferences aren't necessarily trueor right or go back to the thing of,
you know, well, you can't, you have tohave a cover or you can't have a cover.
It's just, it's preference, butjust because no one does typically
builds there, then there doesn'tmean that you, everyone does it.
You don't have to.
Vice versa, you see different finishescome into play, pebble in one space,

(45:55):
different equipment sets, or differentlocations, or, one's got biases,
it's actually a very interestingindustry from a bias standpoint.
Sure.
Bored Chevy Dodge, everyoneknows what they like and
thinks the other ones are crap.

Kevin (46:09):
I think certain materials are more readily available
in certain areas as well.
Certainly.
Stones.
Yeah.
Coming in different tiles.
So are there things that you're like,I don't want to say non negotiable,
but this is what you need to have onyour pool, because going back to what
everybody thinks differently, are therecertain things that you have to have?
I would assume that any project you do,regardless of where it's at, you're going

(46:30):
to want a soils report and you're goingto want to get signed off engineering.
But is there anything specifically abouta pool that you think, for instance, all
pools should have, and I'll just throwlike an in floor cleaning system or a
heat and cool heat pump, or is therelike things that you like think are super
important that people need to at least

Jason (46:49):
consider?
So when we do the, this goes intothe design development side of things
too, and I look at all the differentsystems of a pool and this is after
we've created the vision and character.
Now, what do we want this to be?
I go into each system has all thedifferent equipment that can go with it.
From a circulation system.
You're looking at the different pumpsand the different drains and returns,

(47:11):
et cetera, that goes into that.
The filtration system.
What type of filter are we doing?
Automation, um, sanitization.
Yeah, there are a lot of different piecesand I will give my opinions based on what
I've seen all over the country, what Ilike, whether it's brand, whether it's
different product, you mentioned a couple.
I am an in floor cleaning guy.
Actually, I say that wrong.

(47:32):
I don't think of it as a cleaning system.
It's an in floor circulation systemthat's putting all the returns in the
bottom of the pool and it's comingup from the bottom and giving you a
good distribution of heat and filteredwater and sanitized water from the
bottom up instead of the top out.
That's a big point for me, but that'sa, some people are adamantly against it.
And some people were adamantly for it.

(47:52):
I think there's a lot of benefit.
to those systems.
The heat cool pump.
I do those on prettymuch every job as well.
I'll do a gas heater for the spa andthen I'll have a heat cool electric heat
pump that can maintain that temperatureand then be able to in the heat of the
summer in Texas where you guys are andwhere I am in Tennessee as well when

(48:13):
it gets 107 degrees and even your poolwater feels like bath water you can
kick it in reverse and have a nice 80.
4 to 85 degree and chill what youjump in, which is really nice,
but I'm a big ozone, ozone and UVfan versus salt chlorine systems.
And I think there's some awesomesystems available that are out there
that can do that clear water tech.
So it's a great version forthat, but, uh, Speaking our

Kevin (48:34):
language.

Jason (48:36):
Speak those and it shows just how it cleans the water, how
it's sanitized, how it does it.
There's some amazing equipment thatdoes a good job and automation,
all of it, but lighting goes, LEDlights, I can go on and on forever.

Kevin (48:48):
So when you're working with specific builders around the country,
then a lot of those builders aregoing to be aligned with different
products or different systems.
So how do you interface with that and makethat work based upon your recommendations
versus what a builder actually does?

Jason (49:04):
If the thing is, let's say one builder is a Pentair builder versus
another one's a Hayward builder.
I typically am a Hayward equipment forreason, but Pentair makes great stuff.
So does Jandy.
And if that's a builder is that'stheir, what they know and what they do
and what everyone does, then there'sgreat products in those lines as well.
So I designed with that product as needed.

(49:24):
So you just work around with thebuilder with what they're using.
Pretty much as long as, but sometimesit's opening eyes to different ideas
and saying, Hey, have you thoughtabout this or what if we did this?
And a lot of times they justgo by, we don't do that here.
That's not what we've done before.
Why not?
Is there a reason?
Or is it something youjust never have tried it?
So what if we tried it on here?
Here's a good benefit.

(49:45):
Back when ideas and see where it goes.

Kevin (49:47):
I'm sorry, Mike, you might have another question, but
this just came up in my head.
Back when I was doing training,which was a lot of years ago and
teaching, I found that a lot of thebuilders that came to the classes had
never even come to a course before.
Are you still finding that?

Jason (50:03):
Oh, so true.
Yes.
That's really

Kevin (50:06):
interesting because there's so much more available as educational
opportunities in this industrythan there's ever been before.

Jason (50:13):
So this is a number that's legitimate and bantered about.
Only about 10 percent of theindustry actually takes advantage.
of educational classesthat are offered out there.
And that leaves 90 percent that don't.

Kevin (50:25):
Is

Jason (50:25):
that

Kevin (50:25):
10 percent of the people or 10 percent of the companies?

Jason (50:29):
I would say companies.
It's a lot that's out there that would do.
And that's the question we've beentalking as we've worked in outreach
from Watershed University is elevate.
This is 90%?
Aren't doing it, that aren't partaking.
And then you get to the things thatare, and sometimes it's the educational
offerings are higher or above level.

(50:51):
And sometimes they're hard toget to, and you have to pay to go
to the shows and all that stuff.
So having some online offerings and thingsthat can teach from a sort of ground
level up is a way we're trying to reacha much larger piece of the industry.

Kevin (51:06):
I think one of the challenges is I know when I've talked to different people,
specifically designers, sometimes they'llsay our owner or our company doesn't
really like doing educational events.
They don't want to pay for them.
They don't want to do whatever.
When I know that, at least for me,and I know for you, we paid for all
this, you know, I did it years ago.
You finished it up not that long agoand I didn't go as far as you guys did.

(51:28):
And it costs a lot of money.
I mean, I still spent tens ofthousands of dollars traveling
around the country, going to classes.
And whether I was teaching or beinga student, but at the end of the
day, unless your company or youspecifically see value in it, it
becomes a challenge to get to them.
And I'm saying people needto go as you are, as Mike is.

Mike (51:48):
I think for the homeowner, this is one of the things that.
You need to understand if the personthat's coming out to work on your
project has done further education.
Because if they haven't done it,the challenge is they just haven't
been exposed to a lot of things.
And so they can't offer you probablythe best solution for your backyard

(52:09):
because they don't even know what it is.
It doesn't exist to them.
Until you've learned some of thesethings, you can't tell somebody, Hey,
you really need to do this becauseyou don't even know that it's there.

Jason (52:20):
So one of the things that happens all the time, especially
in the construction classesis a lot of time contract.
Go, I'm going to takea, go take this class.
I know how to do this.
They're just, they're notgoing to teach me anything new.
And within about the first threeor four hours, by the first break,
it's this flood of information.
And it's shown by some of the best inthe world that's out there in projects.

(52:41):
And you're starting to say, Oh, Ididn't know that I didn't do that.
And at first break, people startcalling just back to the office.
They just stop everything you're doing.
Just.
Wait till I get back.
We got to change stuff.
It's intense.
Once you learn to those and it'stransformative and a lot of good
companies, Watermark, who I work with herein Nashville, that brings their entire.
Greece.

(53:01):
They'll bring 10 or 15 people to eachof the, to the show each year and invest
tons of money, just not just send theowner, but sending the guys that are
out there doing the work, the man is an

Kevin (53:11):
investment in their company.

Jason (53:13):
Yes.
And an investment in the product theyproduce for each and every homeowner.
There are several goodcompanies that do that.

Mike (53:19):
If you were to say, what's your favorite focal point,
is it water or is it fire?

Jason (53:26):
I feel like this is a leading question, though, like me.
He's good at that.
Here's the answer.
It's not the pool.
The pool itself is not the focal point.
And that goes back to a design standpoint.
You don't put the pool in the middleand then start putting boxes around it.
And this envelope system out there,you design two accent points or vocal
points, but that could be a tree.

(53:49):
a sculptural ornamental tree.
It could be a sculptural piece.
It could be a water feature that'spart of the pool, but it's not
just the body of water itself.
It could be a fire feature.
As everyone who knows me, Ido enjoy the fire elements.
I love it.
And I'll tell you what, it really hitme at the beginning is I had before, I
just had my whole backyard this year, butbefore I did anything like I used to have

(54:12):
a backyard that just had a little patioand just nothing wouldn't go out there.
Why would I spend any time out there?
And then eight, 10 years ago,I put in a fire pit and just
a simple little fire pit.
I would go and sit in my backyard now,and I would have a glass of bourbon,
and I would just sit there and putmy feet up, and watch the flames,
and just relax, and chill, and it'sjust simple adding that element of

(54:33):
nature, that element into the backyard.
Nothing else was great at thattime, but it gave me a reason
to go out and spend time.
And then when you add that in, combinethe fire and water together and have
the sight and sound of moving water andthe crackling fire or the flames going
up from there, and you can sit back andjust relax and enjoy, it makes a, just
a visceral experience where you just,you experience it in a different way.

Mike (54:57):
So is your backyard done now?

Jason (54:59):
It is.

Mike (55:00):
And what's the favorite part of the backyard?

Jason (55:02):
For one, I think right now, maybe the outdoor kitchen.

Mike (55:06):
We have a great new segment for the Poolside Perspective podcast
that we'll be continuing justbecause of a lot of questions that
people had in regards to one of ourepisodes, and we were talking about.
features that are done in the outdoors,such as outdoor kitchens, especially,
but also everything from heaters tofireplaces and to different things.

(55:30):
So we're going to be meetingand recording these segments
and bringing them to you from.
Texas Outfitters is a local group that wedeal with, and they are experts that you
do not find in a typical barbecue store.

Kevin (55:44):
I remember the first time I went into that place, and I
was just floored, to be honest.
And I've said it before, becauseI'm not a great cooker, I'm not a
great griller, and so we've neverhad an outrageous outdoor kitchen.
And we did quite a few outdoor barbecuesin Phoenix, but Not these elaborate,
I'm cooking outside and I've goteverything available to me to cook on.

(56:06):
And it's been eye opening and exciting.
Look at now, wow, that's pretty cool.
And as you know, I've fallenin love with those Evos.
Yes.
I will have an Evo.

Mike (56:14):
It's a great griddle.
So, we'll have a video that we'll berecording, so it'll be on the YouTube.
Channel as well as shorts, but we'realso going to be bringing to the podcast.
So this segment will highlight afeature every single segment that we do.
And it'll probably go for quite a while.
Cause there's a lot of stuff.
Yes, there is a lot of stuff in there.

Bobby (56:37):
So Bobby, we want to talk to you about, you call these a ceramic.
These are ceramic categories.
They've been aroundsince the early eighties.
The two really specific brandsthat you see out there are going
to be Primo and Big Green Egg.
What is the difference between the two?
Both of them mirror the same things.
They can direct grill, theycan bake, smoke, and roast.

(56:58):
But really, it's preference on sizing,and it's also preference on color.
That's what it is.
So, it just depends onwhat the customer wants.
We can't get a blue oneof either one of these?
You can't get a blue on it.
This is a trademark blackthat Primo's always done.
This is their XL oval that they have.
It's real popular with it.

(57:18):
Claffey does a lot of built in with.
It's very versatile.
Of course, it's shown on the cart, butthe value added piece is the customer
can put it into a table configuration.
They can do a built in configuration, andthe specifier can really set up a storage
system around it and integrate that intotheir existing kitchen specifications.

Kevin (57:40):
So one thing about the eggs, as I understand it, is they're super versatile.
So you could do allkinds of stuff with it.
You could use it as a pizzaoven and everything else.
So tell our listeners really how.
Versatile this type of cooking apparatus.
So

Bobby (57:52):
the ceramic category was reinvigorated during pandemic.
People stay at home and it is versatilefrom a standpoint of a direct series, you
get a robust flavor, you can roast, youset the vehicles up indirect, there's a
plate that goes in there, the heat willhit it and then divert and go around like
an oven, they make phenomenal pizzas,the warranty and the heat containment is

(58:16):
superior, this is always an afterthought.
In a kitchen layout or specification,but it's something that the customer
will always come back and say,Hey, listen, I use this almost
more, if not more than my gas.

Kevin (58:28):
Because you can do all kinds of stuff with it.
You grill, cook, bake, whatever.

Bobby (58:32):
Yes.
And we have different customers that havedifferent needs, different nationalities.
So it provides different setupsfrom paella setup, from wok setup,
traditional barbecue, or evensmoking like we do here in Texas.
So what are the differencesbetween the two units?
They look different.
They do look different.
One is in a round configuration.

(58:52):
It's called an 18 inch large.
This one's an oval.
Big Green Egg does make an extralarge, but the versatility of both
are the vehicles that you put in them.
So I can subdivide these particular areaswith other accessories, as is the Primo.
Uh, when you open the lid, I canput a divider in here, have my

(59:12):
charcoal on the left side, havemy safety zone on the right.
So, what defines these are the accessoriesthat you add to them that are specific
to what the customer's needs are.

Mike (59:23):
Okay.
So, one of the things that I found isthat you can get more surface area with
the Primo in a standard counter setup.
That's correct.

Bobby (59:34):
Versus if I go, this is a large, is this a large?
This is a large here.
Yes, Primo is the extra large.
And this is an extra large.
Okay.
So, with a,

Mike (59:43):
Extra large primo, I can get 50 percent more cooking area.
The standard counter versus if I go to an

Bobby (59:49):
extra large egg, it's going to be deeper.
That's a circle.
That's right.
So if you go to an extra largeegg, your depth front to back,
you have to take an accommodationof that sizing of that enclosure.
When we specify islands, we wantto think about minimum 30 inches.
This can still, in an extra large stand,that linear line at 30 inch depth on a
standard outdoor countertop, and it makesit easy to use as far as specifying.

(01:00:13):
Something that we don't reallytalk about too much are the, the
accessories that are add ons to these.
I can automate this by putting inwhat's called a fireboard system.
You'll notice that whenever CLAFIdoes specifications, they always
put a lot of plugs in around thecookers because electric lighting
agents like loop lighter, Thatmakes it the ease of use to lighting

(01:00:33):
the charcoal, but also automation.
So, I can hook up this fan kit belowto the ceramic grill, connect it
into my Wi Fi, and go play golf andmonitor the whole cooking process.

Mike (01:00:44):
So now we're getting something closer to what a pellet grill is.
That's correct.
Okay, so saying that you can't haveautomation with this is not a correct
statement, because you can't automate

Bobby (01:00:56):
We identify that after the customer's had the cooker three or four
or five years, They come in and they wantto, you know, they're in discovery phase.
They go, Hey, we think we want apellet grill because ease of use, but
we show them the automation systemslike the fireboard systems that you
can connect to any ceramic grill.
And then they go in this directionbecause they like the flavor profile.

Mike (01:01:15):
Yeah.
I mean, I have an egg.
Okay.
So, and I cook on my egg all the time.
And it does, when you're doing a rib.
smoke for four hours.
You're around for a little bit.
Absolutely.
And that's not totally true.
Like I went shopping the other dayfor an hour and a half because once
I got my temperature set, it's not

Bobby (01:01:31):
changing.
It's not.
It's pretty static.
Once you get this, when you light thischarcoal grill, you don't light it with
the lid open like a traditional kettle.
Once you light it, you'll pull thelid down and control the air channels.
And this will hold.
The energy from the charcoal, whichyour usage of charcoal is nominal.
So if I were to fill a bowl up onthe extra large primo, I could get

(01:01:53):
anywhere from 14 to 16 hours of cookingwithout having to do a replenish.
Wow.
So,

Mike (01:02:00):
yeah, I don't think I can go that long,

Bobby (01:02:02):
although I've never

Mike (01:02:03):
in a cook

Bobby (01:02:04):
nearly cooked it out.

Mike (01:02:06):
Brisket's probably going to be the longest cook that I would

Bobby (01:02:08):
do.

Mike (01:02:09):
And

Bobby (01:02:09):
that's something I don't do a lot of.
So my ceramic customer and the large egg.
It's biggest pellet customer, meaningthat when they have graduated from this,
they'll come in and they'll say, andwe'll go on to this segment a little bit
is they'll say, listen, I love my egg.
I love this to share my stakes onthis, but now I'm looking for space and
ease of use is what we're looking for.

(01:02:29):
And that'll lead us into the nextsegment that's popular, which is pellet.

Mike (01:02:34):
Thank you to Brett and Bobby, Texas Outfitters, and we'll have their
information to contact them as well.

Kevin (01:02:41):
If anybody's thinking about an outdoor kitchen, that's the place to go.
They have a great supplyof just about everything.
And they're good guys.
Yes.
Thanks.

Jason (01:02:49):
I got a really cool all fire magic equipment and it's got the grill
and the burger and the pizza ovenand I cook on that all the time now.
So like even the winter time I goout there and make all kind of stuff.
I enjoy that part.
I have a super long barthat's fun to hang out with.
But, but really same thing.
Really my favorite thing is I've got the.
Sort of a double level fire pitright in front of the spa and then

(01:03:11):
a fountain that spills behind that.
So we'll just, I've gota little seating space.
I can just go sit in that, in thosechairs and hang out with my family
and friends and talk and enjoy andhear the water and see the lights.
And that's some really cool plantingthat makes it feel intimate.
So have fun with it.
It's not crazy.
It's not a, not one of the jobs Inormally design and I get grief for that.

(01:03:33):
But it's just a backyard,typical suburbia.

Mike (01:03:36):
It's a fun one.
Where you live, your house,your yard, your dreams.
My world.

Jason (01:03:41):
That's

Mike (01:03:41):
right.

Jason (01:03:41):
My

Mike (01:03:42):
life.
Your world.
So that's the fun of the job is if youever done two projects that are the same.

Jason (01:03:48):
Nothing is ever a direct repeat of something, no, in that sense.
Now, because you're pulling off ofthe, what makes, what's the character?
What's the homeowner,

Mike (01:03:58):
right?

Jason (01:03:58):
What's the house and what's the site.
And even the same house and sitecan have completely different
solutions based on the desires andwhat the homeowner wants to do.
So there's, there's not acookie cutter solution that you
just plop and go from there.
So you try and find.

Mike (01:04:13):
Was your yard easy to design for you or hard?

Jason (01:04:18):
Easy.
And that sometimes that's different.
A lot of people say their personalproject is the hardest one of all.
It was for me.
I labored over materials more on mine, butI knew what I was going to do in my yard.
For years, so I knew about whatI could do and it's, I had some
limitations and setbacks and easementsand views or wars, et cetera, that

(01:04:40):
I knew what I was going to do, but Ipopped it in there and went with it.
Awesome.
It was fun.
I enjoyed it.

Mike (01:04:46):
Family's enjoying it.
It's summer

Jason (01:04:47):
now.
So.

Mike (01:04:48):
Will this be the first summer?

Jason (01:04:50):
Yeah.
We finished it in fall, really.
So we got to get in andenjoy it, but not so.

Mike (01:04:56):
And you have the two girls still at home?

Jason (01:04:58):
At home.
I've got a 22 year oldthat's living in Nashville.
So she's at home or not at home, but in

Mike (01:05:04):
town,

Jason (01:05:04):
nearby in town.
Correct.
And then I have a 17 year old juniordaughter and then a 10 year old daughter.
Correct.
And then my son is in Japan.
So we'll have some good times this summer.
Yeah.

Mike (01:05:13):
Absolutely.
Is there anything else that you wouldshare with a homeowner as they're going
through their process that they shouldthink about that would help their journey?

Jason (01:05:25):
I'll say this, and this kind of hits kind of a thought.
We're just talking about my daughter,but, and it goes back to this.
This is one of the things I teach too,is not just when you're designing it,
you don't just look at the house andthe homeowner and the site, but the why.
Is the biggest driver and whatare the reasons you're developed?
Why do you want to do this?
And there, there are three things formost people have the biggest one I've

(01:05:47):
seen of all is like all the familyhaven is I've got kids and I want
the kids to be, you know, I want tocreate something that keeps them here.
They don't go off to the otherhouses when they're teenagers and
all their friends come here and Iget to be part of it and we become
the family hub that makes it happen.
Huge design.
Decision.
And when you have that is yourprimary factor that your homeowners

(01:06:08):
say that you filter every decisionyou make in the design through the
thought of does this promote thefamily atmosphere, the family haven.
Another one is I got the retreat.
Which is the, I live a busy, overscheduled life, CEOs, my phone's non
stop, I'm taking kids to 17 differentballgames, events, all day, every day.
I just want a space that I can have myzen moment and get away and relax and have

(01:06:32):
some semblance of relaxation, of retreat.
So that becomes a reason that youdesign all your spaces around.
Do I?
Filter the thoughts throughIs creating a zen space, am I
creating relaxation elements?
How does that work?
Another big one is, I call it thewow factor or the entertainer,
and those are the ones that whatwe have, we love to entertain.

(01:06:52):
We have people over, we do all the eventsand bring food and, and wine and enjoy.
And you want to create spaces thatencourage that you to come out there
that make some unique, some splashitems, some wow factor things.
What draws people to want to come tothat filter decisions through that.
So when you have those reasons behind,you want to, if you're a homeowner

(01:07:15):
that's looking at that, what are yourreasons and share that with the design.
So you really take that through theprocess and make sure that's considered.
And a quick story on that one, wewere just talking about my daughter.
We finished mine right at the,I'm 21, 22 years in the industry.
I've never had my own pool,finally built my own pool.
And this year it was my.

(01:07:36):
End of the season, my 10 year old'sbirthday was on October 28th, and she
had, it was still warm enough, we endedup having a pool party, you know, for
her, and she had all of her friends, andthey got up on there, on the wall between
the spa and the pool, and she sat thereand sang, she's a singer, and she sang
Taylor Swift that's going through theSonos system throughout, at the top of her

(01:07:57):
voice, and all her friends are dancing.
and with her and the boys are in thepool shooting them with water guns and
it's a lifelong memory that she has.
She asked me to show the video thatI was recording on her all the time
because it just, those are the reasons.
That's why you do the thingsthat we do to make those memories
that make your family special.
Love it.
It's fun.

Mike (01:08:18):
So it's all about the memories.
So we create a space that people canjoin together and where sometimes they
will never be together, but they'll jointogether in that moment in time and space
and create memories we never forget.
So it's a blast to be part of that.
It's a blast to have yoube a part of the industry.

(01:08:41):
You give a lot to it and I appreciate it.
I know lots of others do as well.

Jason (01:08:46):
Absolutely.
It's fun.
And so we do it because of what youcan give back and creating those
times and you create it for clients.
They have you over in there.
You create spaces you just can'tleave and you don't want to ever go
and you don't want to go back inside.
Why would I leave this?
That's really the joy.
That's the payoff more than anything else.

Kevin (01:09:03):
100%.
Jason, thanks so muchfor being on the show.
We really appreciate it.
You're busy.
And if somebody wanted toget ahold of you, how do they
get ahold of Jason Brownlee?

Jason (01:09:14):
I've got a website, jbrownledesign, I'm on Facebook,
Instagram, and all those things.
Again, jbrownledesign, companyname, but phone numbers out
there, everything else too.
So I'm happy to be, to take a call andsee, like I said, I work everywhere.
Love seeing new things and seeingwhere that goes and helping people out.

Kevin (01:09:30):
We don't want you working in the DFW area, just FYI.

Jason (01:09:35):
I got one just outside of it, but I tried to get you guys to look at it.
Yes, we

Mike (01:09:38):
know.

Jason (01:09:39):
It's

Mike (01:09:39):
a big boy.
Thanks again, sir.
So we'll look forward toseeing you sometime soon.
Thanks, Jason, appreciate

Kevin (01:09:45):
you.

Mike (01:09:45):
Look forward meeting you.
I love it.

Kevin (01:09:46):
All right, bye-bye.

Mike (01:09:47):
care.
Tell everybody hi.

Kevin (01:09:48):
Appreciate

Mike (01:09:48):
it guys.
Thanks.
Bye.

Kevin (01:09:51):
This show is all about helping you become a better buyer, a better
pool owner, and hopefully you'regonna find some insights into how
to enjoy your pool even more so.
How to help your friends, your family,anybody looking to buy a pool in the
future or that want to remodel theirbackyard, add an outdoor fireplace, fire
pit, add an outdoor kitchen area, addsome shade cells or whatever else it is.

(01:10:14):
We want to be that resource for you andthat's the end goal here and we promise.
that there's going tobe a ton of information.
We'll try to go through it, youknow, as relatively quickly, but
also slow so people can understand.
But the intent of the show, thereason Mike and I are doing this
is because we just got a lot inour heads and we want to share it.
So we hope to see youhere every single week.
Thanks for listening.