A brief history of Sudeley Castle and Gardens: Interview with Derek Maddock

Professor Turi King discusses the history of Sudeley Castle with it's archivist, Derek Maddock.

Sudeley Castle remains the only private castle in England to have a queen buried within the grounds - Queen Katherine Parr, the last and surviving wife of King Henry VIII – who lived and died in the castle.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
I'm here at Sudeley Castle because essentiallyI'm returning some bones, that I was asked
to have a look at, just in case they mightbe medieval, they weren't, but I thought what
a fantastic opportunity to talk to Derek Maddock,who is the archivist here at Sudeley, to find
out a little bit about the history of theCastle.
So, Derek so lovely to chat to you, startus at the beginning, I know there's a long

(00:24):
history here.
There is a long history, we can claim a thousandyears of history on this site.
A thousand years of history, where does thatstart?
The first record we have is of Empress Goda,who is the daughter of Ethelred, and she married
and then her sons took over the Castle.
The de Sudeley family, the name that theyadopted, and they carried through until they

(00:48):
ran out of male heirs, so various John deSudeley’s, Ralph de Sudeley’s.
And then eventually one of the daughters hadmarried into the Boteler family of Wem, and
then it passed to the Boteler’s.
So, when was that?
That would be, sort of early 14s, and Ralphde Boteler 1442, he was a huge builder.
So, we have the Dungeon Tower still left fromthat time, the North Tower, the Church all

(01:11):
coming around that sort of time, so the bulkof the building was due to Boteler.
Before that sort of time, it's more like ahunting lodge, pleasure palace and so on.
So, the 1400s it becomes this castle?
Castle perhaps not the right word becauseit's in a bowl, it's not a defensive site,
it's more of a pleasure palace, but they calledit a castle for grandeur’s sake.

(01:31):
And windows glazed with berall, for instance,apparently glistened over the Cotswolds when
the light is right and so on.
And this is where lots of royal connectionscome in don’t, they?
Well, it starts with Eleanor Talbot.
The Talbots were friends of the Botelers and,you know, Earl of Shrewsbury good connection
to make, and Eleanor Tolbot married Ralph'sson, Thomas.

(01:53):
And apparently a love match, but no childrenwere produced.
And then Thomas Boteler (Butler) was killedin one of the early skirmishes of the Wars
of the Roses.
Eleanor Boteler (Butler) still got on verywell with her father-in-law, stayed here much
of the time.
But apparently on a visit across to Norfolkmet the future Edward IV, who had the lovely
chat up line of, “if you go to bed withme, I'll marry you.”

(02:16):
In this case, she did, and he did marry herand there was a witness who later became The
Bishop of Bath and Wells.
They again, didn't have any children and eventuallyshe backed away from him, went into a convent
and he married again, and then produced theso-called Princes in the Tower, Elizabeth
of York, and so on, but of course if he'sstill married to somebody else, the children

(02:41):
would be not allowed to inherit the throne.
Yeah.
Which Richard III had found out and he claimedthat, to claim the throne.
And then when he was killed at the Battleof Bosworth, we've got Henry wanting to unify
the two Yorkist, Tudor families, destroysall copies of that, apart from one which was

(03:02):
found later.
So, we've got Richard III claiming the throne,Henry VII removing this sort of claim to the
throne, by destroying these copies, so hecan then marry Elizabeth of York.
So, this is our first major royal connection.
You mentioned the bones earlier, there werestories that possibly the Princes in the Tower

(03:22):
had been moved out of London and killed atSudeley.
When we discovered, sort of bones in the Victoriantimes, and also about 20 years ago, when gardeners
were discovering near the Dungeon Tower, massesof bones, interest was piqued and we thought,
hmm might be worth investigating these bonesbecause we'd like them to be of the Princes
and the Tower, please.
Shame they weren't.

(03:43):
No sadly not from the right period, but it'sreally interesting because you must find bones
quite often.
I mean this is a very old site, there's goingto be bones, so where were these bones found?
In the archivist office we're relatively closeto the wonderfully named Dungeon Tower, which
was a 1442 construction.
There's no evidence of it at the moment butthere were oblates at the bottom, you know
people lowered in and when the Victoriansrebuilt this tower, this is where the bones

(04:08):
were claimed to have been found.
The second set of bones were discovered justto the side of the Dungeon Tower, so all in
this locality, all within about 20 metersof where we're sitting.
Yeah, it would just be nice if they were thePrincess bones.
Well let's back up because actually, I mean,that is a really big turning point in history.
This whole thing about how Edward IV was supposedto have been pre-contract, actually married,

(04:32):
Eleanor Butler (Boteler).
And there were rumours during the time ofhis reign, that actually, you know, he'd married
Elizabeth Woodville but that children wouldbe illegitimate, because he was already pre-contracted.
So, I hadn't realised that Sudeley Castlewas this kind of centre point for this story
because of Eleanor having been here.
Edward himself didn't come here, but the Castlewas owned by Richard III, so we've got the

(04:54):
royal connection there anyway.
But according to the bishop, it was a definitemarriage, he witnessed it, he was the actual
officiating officer.
Edward tries to back away from it at a latertime, but this bishop talks to Richard of
Gloucester and also his brother, George ofClarence had been told about this.
so as far as they were concerned this wasa true story, therefore Elizabeth Woodville's

(05:19):
children are illegitimate, therefore theycannot inherit the throne, therefore Richard
has the right to the throne.
Once Edward dies, Richard of Gloucester becomesRichard III.
And Richard actually owned the castle previouslydidn't he, because didn't Edward IV give Richard
the castle during the Wars of the Roses?
Yes, it was given to Richard, he then at somepoint swapped the Castle with Richmond, but

(05:41):
then took it back again.
How often he came here, we've not got muchevidence.
Logically he'd be here when the battle ofTewkesbury was fought because it's a relatively
short distance across.
The only thing I have in the archives becausethe archives were largely destroyed in the
Civil War time, is a bill for, equivalenttoday, of £3,000 worth of wine.
So, presumably you had a party here at somepoint.

(06:03):
So, isn't he supposed to have built part ofthe Castle?
The so-called Banqueting Tower which dividedthe Castle was around that sort of time and
it's believed Richard III certainly contributedto that.
We don't have a lot of proof.
Okay so Richard is killed at the Battle ofBosworth in 1485, what happens then?

(06:24):
Henry VII claims the throne and his rewardfor his services the Duke of Bedford is given
possession of Sudeley.
It then passes through various Tudor hands,Henry VIII certainly visited here with Anne
Boleyn in the early stages of their romance.
It’s a possibility that elements of thedissolution of monasteries were planned here.
Thomas Cromwell stayed at Winchcombe Abbeywhich is less than a mile from here.

(06:47):
Henry visited with Anne Boleyn, we have amodern copy of his expenditure, you know there's
definite proof that he did stay here.
And also, the Seymour's become heavily involved.
So, we've got on to the end of Henry's reign,he marries Katherine Parr.
Everybody assumes that she was the nurse maid,but she was a religious reformer, she was

(07:09):
the monarch when Henry was out of the countryfighting, taught Elizabeth how to be queen
effectively, got Mary back involved.
So, you know, Katherine Parr was rather anice lady.
She was a musician, she was a bit of a linguist,she was developing, along with Thomas Seymour,
this Camelot idea almost, the alternativecourt in the country.

(07:29):
She's away from the sickness of London, she'sspending her time writing religious tracks,
we have original copies of her books thatshe wrote, Lamentations of a Sinner.
She has one weakness, and that was she lovedThomas Seymour.
She had been married, first of all with EdwardBurgh, then when he dies marries John Latimer,
which brings her to court, she sees ThomasSeymour, falls madly in love wants to marry

(07:53):
him, Henry sees her says, no you're goingto marry me.
But then he dies and the romance with ThomasSeymour starts again, they get married…
As soon as she can prove she's not pregnantby Henry, effectively they marry very early
on in the period of mourning, which causeda bit of a scandal at court.
And for the first time she actually becomespregnant as well, she's what age 36 at the time

(08:16):
So was pregnant with Thomas Seymour's child,but Seymour was a schemer, he was out for
power, because by now we've got Edward VIon the throne, little nine-year-old, and Henry
wanted a council to look after.
Katherine Parr was on that council, Cranmerwas on that council, both Seymour uncles were
on that council, but Edward Seymour, the olderbrother, hijacks and is the protector effectively.

(08:42):
Katherine Parr has a regular series of rowswith Edward Seymour's wife.
Yes, it was quite turbulent times, but shecomes across here, away from London, wants
to have the baby in seclusion and also insafety.
And she has the future queen Elizabeth I ishere, staying with her?
And also, Lady Jane Grey.
And Katherine comes here pregnant and hasa little girl in the pleasants that was reserved

(09:06):
for her, but unfortunately as many women atthat time did, dies within a matter of a week
after the birth of the baby girl, and Seymour'sreaction, baby girl what use is that to me?
Nice man.
We don't like this chap.
Yes, as you guess Sudeley is not very keenon Thomas Seymour, but we like Katherine Parr.
But Katherine's then buried here.

(09:27):
Katherine is then buried here, in the firstproper Protestant rites of a royal person.
So, she's buried here, there's no sort ofornamentation, there are candles just to see
by, there are collections, but the collectionsare made for the poor, not for the church
or anything like that.
There's not full details of the sermon butMyles Coverdale, her amanra, and John Parkhurst,

(09:50):
her priest, conduct the service.
Seymour, by now has disappeared, he's in Londontrying to get in power in a different way.
So, what happens in the Tudor period, so Iknow Elizabeth I is supposed to have visited
several times hasn’t she?
Well, we've got Mary who gives the controlof Sudeley to the Brydges family and the first
Lord Chandos.
Apparently, he had treated Lady Jane Greyvery well at her execution, he's very sympathetic

(10:14):
towards her as he cuts her head off, and he'sgiven the control of Sudeley.
And Elizabeth comes here three times, thebig one is in 1592, part of her progress there’s
a three-day party here.
So, Elizabeth I is here and then obviouslyshe passes away and the crown then goes through
to the Stewart line.
Yeah.
It's then a constable running it, so althoughit's technically, I suppose still crown property,

(10:39):
well we've got the Brydges family in control.
The 3rd Lord Chandos had bankrupted himselfhosting this three-day party, where it rained
continually.
Oh no.
In those sorts of days, the progress is designedto keep the nobles in control effectively.
So virtually they bankrupt themselves to bringthe queen here, in the hope that they are
going to get…
Something out of it…

(10:59):
Something tangible, it's a gamble and hisgamble fails because it reigns continually,
despite all the presents he gave her.
So, then we get progressing into the Stewarttime and into the Civil War.
Gloucestershire is probably by and large aparliamentary county.
We've got Bristol, then part of Gloucestershire,Gloucester, big ports that have to be controlled,

(11:20):
so there's a lot of parliamentary power here.
The Brydges decides to go on the side of theKing.
Prince Rupert is billeted here quite often,you know, the King visits as well.
So, surprise, surprise it's been a targettwo or three times for attacks.
There were two sieges and eventually Sudeleyis captured, and after the first siege the

(11:41):
Parliamentarians left, then the Royalistsreinhabit.
So therefore, second time they capture it,they decide to slight it, and I've got the
accounts of labourers from the Forest of Dean,Stonemasons, Carpenters, demolishing the place,
not just randomly destroying it, demolishingthe place.
Even the Church had the roof taken off, sothere's no roof anywhere, it's all slighted

(12:01):
and for effectively 200 odd years there'salmost nothing here.
You get a tenant farmer in the early 1800s.
The only royal connection we can claim inthat sort of period is George III, he visits
quite regularly, and he apparently climbedone of the towers and tumbled down the spiral
staircase, and Mrs Cox, the stout housekeeper,how she's referred to at that sort of time,

(12:26):
threw herself underneath him and saved hislife.
Oh, my goodness.
And her nephew was rewarded with a commissionin the guards as a result.
But it's a ruin nearly at this point, I meanit's still inhabited?
Inhabited, not really, it is a ruin, you knowthe estate is still being farmed and in about
the 1800s the Brydges family still own it,then it passes to the Duke of Buckingham through

(12:46):
a marriage and elements like that.
So, it's still owned by Brydges/Pit family,Buckingham’s, you know, the names are all
sort of changing as to marriages and thingslike that.
So, the estate is still farmed and at onestage the Duke of Buckingham decides that
they're going to rebuild the Castle.
So, they employ John Sohn to do so, and theylook at the prices and they say, no thank

(13:11):
you, and try and sell it.
There is a tenant farmer on site by this time,so the one little section is re-roofed, and
he also runs a pub here called the CastleArms.
So, we've got 1809, no chance of the DukeBuckingham affording this, and then, my dear
a trade family buy it, how can a trade familybuy it?
So, the Dent family who are wealthy glovemakers from Worcester, and the Dent firm still

(13:36):
exists today, buy the estate first and then1837 buy Sudeley and proceed to rebuild.
By 1840 it's inhabitable and they spend alot of their remaining years here.
It's been hugely rebuilt, during the Victorianperiod you have this real revival of Sudeley.
You can see the difference between the bigtowers, which they didn't take down and the

(14:00):
sections in between, they're about a meterhigh some of the sections, so you've got a
lot of rebuilding.
They didn't rebuild everything.
If you think of a figure of eight, with thecorners squared off, that's what Sudeley used
to look like in the 1440s.
They decided not to rebuild the BanquetingHall, and they decided not to complete one

(14:20):
little section of the outer walls, instead they puta yew tree hedge there and they crenelated that.
There are I suppose two-thirds of the originalshell was reconstructed, and the Banqueting
Hall which is the romantic ruin.
So, tell me about Emma Dent, because she isone of the quite famous inhabitants of Sudeley
Castle and quite a lovely character?

(14:43):
The two Dent brothers were both bachelors,nobody to inherit, so they pass the Castle
to John Coucher Dent.
Then he marries Emma Brocklehurst.
She comes from a wealthy silk family in Macclesfield.
So, we've got a glove family and a silk family,making a trade marriage made in heaven.
So, they are a very well-off family and Emmathen proceeds to rebuild the Castle in terms

(15:08):
of historical remnants and things like that.
So, for instance, 1842 there's the StrawberryHill sale, a lot of things that relate to
the history of Sudeley are available there,so that's been bought and John Coucher Dent
acts as the Dent brothers’ agent.
So, we have a wonderful painting of the TudorSuccession.
It's one of these allegorical paintings showingHenry passing the Sword of State to Edward,

(15:32):
with Elizabeth looking on, there standingon the carpet, which represents the Church
of England.
And we've got Mary with Philip of Spain, offthe carpet on the side.
There's also copies of original Holbein’smade by George Virtue.
If you think of The Mirror and the Light,Wolf Hall, and so on by Hilary Mantel, the
Virtue paintings look as if they have beenused by the costume designers.

(15:55):
There's a superb sort of, 20/30 images thereof people from the Tudor court.
And then Emma carries on buying anything thatfits the history of the location.
She encourages archaeological research, shepays for two Roman Villas to be excavated,
pays for money to be given towards the WinchcombeAbbey restoration.

(16:17):
Puts a lot of money towards Belas Knapa Neolithic long barrow.
She regularly invites the people of Winchcombeinto Sudeley to look at her treasures, her
possessions, and things like that.
She builds schools, lots of money goes towardsAlmshouses, church at Gretton, about three
miles away from here, completely built onher instructions.

(16:38):
So huge amount of philanthropy.
And then she also buys things that she loves,not things that were fashionable, but eclectic
elements.
Tiger teeth that killed Lieutenant Dagnor,and of course lots of textiles samplers, eclectic
barely does justice to what she has collected.
When you actually look at the legacies fromher, you know, in today's money we're talking

(16:59):
£3.6 million given to charities, to servants,to Almshouse inhabitants, every child in Dent’s
school got a half crown, every teacher gota £1.
So yeah very, sort of, philanthropic and seemsa very nice lady.
So, who owns the Castle now?
Well at the moment Lady Ashcombe.

(17:21):
Now she married Mark Dent-Brocklehurst, hadtwo children, Henry, and Molly.
Mark Dent-Brocklehurst died aged 40 odd.
Two young children, but she decides to keepthe Castle and then takes a lot of advice
from people like the Duke of Bedford and opensthe Castle as a thriving concern, and it's
still open nine months of the year, ever since.

(17:41):
Lots of people are really enjoying the sortof visits to Sudeley at the moment, so it's
one of these things that appeals to everybody.
So, I think that's the thing about Sudeleyit's incredibly beautiful, it's this little
hidden gem, that people don't necessarilyknow about.
It's got this incredible history and thenthese lovely little, kind of, stories around
it and wonderful things that you can comeand see here.

(18:03):
There's something that will appeal to virtuallyeverybody.
So, tell me about you, because you are thearchivist at Sudeley Castle, what an amazing job
How did you come to be here?
Part-time archivist I should stress.
I was a teacher for 38 years.
I started off with PE and History, alwaysgradually intending to move into History.
And then I ran the History Department at CheltenhamCollege Prep School and came here as a volunteer.

(18:30):
And talk about right place at the right time,I walked into the CEO after about two weeks,
and I taught all of his kids, he said do youwant a job?
So I'm now the part-time archivist, I've beenhere eight years and my task has been to digitise
the system and involve researchers and, youknow, try and expand the knowledge of Sudeley
in terms of the archives, because althoughthe archive was roughly catalogued in the

(18:52):
80s, it's not really sort of been developedbeyond that.
So, we're trying to expand it and show whatwe have got and it's fascinating.
Derek, I cannot tell you, it has been sucha pleasure to talk to you.
Thank you so much for your time.