November 17, 2024 • 19 mins
In Ireland during the 1940s, the stigma meant that most unmarried mothers had no option but to place their babies for adoption. 72-year-old Viv came on DNA Family Secrets hoping to find her older sister, who was taken from her mum as the baby. In this podcast Turi catches up with Viv a year after her episode was broadcast.
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(00:00):
I'm Turi King and I am here with the lovely Vivienne, who was part of series three of DNA
Family Secrets. And Viv when you came to us, you were wanting to find your sister. So I
know the story was that your mum was incredibly young, she's 17, she's having a relationship
(00:22):
with a much older married man, and she has a baby, and she's put in a mother and baby home,
and the baby is taken from her, and you don't know what's happened to her, and that's who
you wanted to find. All you knew was that her name was Veronica. So, tell me about what was happening
with your mum and how all this came to be.My mother had had this little baby, right back
(00:47):
in early 1944, around that time, in a baby home in Ireland. It was Easter time, she went to church,
it was a maundy Thursday, and when she got back, the baby was gone and she just went berserk,
she went hysterical, she just wanted her baby.She then left Ireland because she just wanted to
(01:08):
blot out the memory. And she went to Crosby and was part of a midwifery nursing home,
and she loved it. I don't know how she could cope because she loved the babies and knowing she'd
lost the baby, but I don't know it must've been a comfort for her and she absolutely adored it.
But her and her sister in Ireland were very close, so she wanted to get her sister
(01:30):
across. She was auntie Teresa, but I couldn't say Teresa, called her Dedda and she was Dedda all her
life. So, they then came to Manchester, and they became waitresses in this… it was called Happy's,
this cafe down in Rusholme. And they were so happy there. And even the guy that owned it,
he loved them. And he looked after them and he was like a father figure to them.
(01:52):
But she was still in love with Nicky. He was a cousin of her sister's husband,
so she used to go over to see her sister, who had five children, and it was St. Patrick's Day,
so she went across to Ireland and of course she was with Nicky, and mummy conceived me.
Then obviously I was born, she had her baby, but she did still continue to go over to see
(02:16):
Nicky because of her family being there. And then eventually auntie Phyllis and uncle Jimmy, fell
on hard times and mummy said, come to England and start again. And that was sort of the beginning
of the end of her and Nicky. But she had her baby now, but obviously still pining and wanting
Veronica as well, with no means of finding her.So, Nicky was this married man who she'd been
(02:38):
having this relationship with, had Veronica, still had the relationship going and then had you.
Yes.So, let's take it back a little bit,
because your mum was really young, wasn't she, when she fell pregnant with Veronica and…
She was 17.Yeah. And it was a difficult
situation because Nicky, who was the father, was married at the time. Obviously, this is a period
(03:03):
where it is completely frowned upon to have a child out of wedlock. So, what happens? What does
he do for your mum? How do they deal with it? He sends her to our mother and baby home in Dublin.
Well, that's what I believe. And mummy understood she was going to keep the baby. I mean, I don't
know what their plan was. I mean, I don't want to be stepping on anybody's toes, but I know he
(03:25):
wanted to go to Liverpool with mummy and leave his family. You know, he was in love with her, but she
couldn't do it. She couldn't on her conscience let him leave a family, I think he had four children.
So, there's no way that was going to happen.So, she just became independent, it was tough
for her, but she came over here and she loved it, and she was removed from him. But of course,
(03:47):
auntie Dedda didn't like it, and they were inseparable, I mean, all their lives,
she was just her rock. I don't know what she would have done without her because although
mummy was very strong in lots of ways, she was ill, she was sick, physically as well as mentally.
So, she's got this baby, she's 17. She thinks she's going to be able to keep the baby.
(04:08):
Yeah.But what happened,
so Easter Sunday she goes to church?No, she went to church on the Maundy
Thursday. So, she just went to church, start of the Easter holidays, and came home thinking
her baby was there and it was gone. As I say, she went berserk, she went hysterical.
I can't even imagine, you'd be frantic.Well, she was broken, totally broken. And
(04:30):
they wouldn't tell you anything, you know, they more or less told you to put yourself
together. And, you know, you frowned upon this unmarried mother, you know.
But the relationship continued with Nicky.Oh, yeah.
Which is how, you know, eventually she has another baby, Nicky's thought
to be the father and that relationship continued for quite a long time, didn’t it.
(04:51):
A long time, I mean, she was in love with him. She loved him so much. And then obviously when
she conceived me, then that was her life, she’d got her baby. And I don't recall Mummy being with
anybody, for many a year. And then I'd say to her, look, I'm going to go off and get married, I don't
want to leave you. You know, you have to start going out, and she'd come out with us, or she
(05:12):
would occasionally see people. But her heart was always with Nicky, she wasn't really interested.
So, you're an only child and you're growing up, so when did you find out
that you had a sister? How old were you?Well, I knew something was going on because
she was always poorly, but they didn't say anything to me. But I think when I was around,
I think probably eight, because I was asking who's my father? And of course she said,
(05:36):
you know, you're not going to like it. And right away I said, it's Nicky. So, I guessed it.
But I didn't have a lot to do with him. He was in Ireland and by then mummy had severed it anyway,
because uncle Jimmy and auntie Phyllis come to live here. And then obviously she then
told me that I have a sister, and of course I was, well why can't we find her? You know,
(05:57):
I always wanted a sister. And she said, well, you know what happened,
and there's no way and means of finding her so. But she says, I've got you and you're so precious,
you know, and that was the end of it.And, then as we got a little bit older and
I got older, sort of talking to her again, I was, sort of, well can't do anything about this. And,
I mean, she wanted to find her. I mean, she loved her, but she thought, what can I do,
(06:22):
you know, I don't think Nicky really knew, well he didn't say… well they
weren’t in touch then, to be honest, but…And it's difficult because in that period,
quite often if babies are adopted quite young, they would be immediately given the name of
the new family. There might not be records of it. And so, to be able to trace somebody like
that incredibly difficult, if not impossible, because the records don't necessarily exist.
(06:45):
Exactly, I was just going to say they destroyed the records as well. So,
she’d just given up as a hopeless cause, as much as she wanted it to happen. And she would have
loved to have found Veronica. But then obviously through DNA and yourself, you made it all happen.
Because I remember when you came and talked to me and I… there were a couple of things. So, it was
like, first of all, we don't quite know when she was born, but we thought she's probably late 70s,
(07:10):
maybe even 80 by this point, giving the timing. And I thought, well, she might not still be alive,
so we went through that. And then the second thing is, is that in order to find a sibling,
it needs to be them and their children who are on the databases already. So, it's that thing where
it's really potentially quite difficult to find a sibling like that who's missing on the databases.
(07:34):
So, we knew that it was going to be a bit of a long shot potentially. But when we did
the DNA testing, somebody turned up on the database and they had a Veronica in their
family tree. And of course, I am thinking, is this right? Have they kept her name?
(07:55):
Which is incredible.Yeah, I got in contact with them,
and they didn't know terribly much about this Veronica. So, you know, ended up talking to
some of their relatives. And then one of them did a DNA test for us to just confirm, and that showed
that this was your sister, Veronica.I can't tell you the kind of like,
(08:18):
the goose pimples you get when you find somebody. And being able to tell you that
this was your Veronica, this was your sister. And I remember we were both in tears when I
was telling you this when we were filming.I mean, and to know they kept her name,
because that for me, and for mummy's sake, I thought, oh, that's just wonderful for her.
(08:39):
She'd just love that, to know that she had her name as well. Because what's the odds of that,
they kept the name? I mean, it was really fantastic, and maybe it wouldn't
have triggered for you if there hadn't been a Veronica there on the listing, I don't know.
Well, I could tell that this was a relative, and I could see going back through the family tree,
it would have been something where I would have been going, okay,
this is a line to look at. But of course, with that in it, you think, oh my goodness, okay.
(09:04):
One of the closer relatives did a DNA test for us just to actually confirm,
and obviously really sad thing about it was that Veronica had passed away incredibly young… 25.
And to leave three young children, one was only 18 months old.
Yeah.I mean, in some ways
it sounds awful, but I'm so glad mummy didn't find her, because she’d have only have lost her again.
(09:29):
Yeah.We would have only just found
each other and then she'd had all the trauma of that. I mean, it sounds awful but, in some ways,
it was a blessing in some respects, for her, because she had so much trauma over Veronica
for so long, and then to have lost her. Oh, I don't know how she would have coped with that.
Yeah.So…
And it was a surprise, obviously, to this family because they had never known
(09:52):
that Veronica was adopted.No, I believe not, yeah.
In those, sort of, early conversations that I was having with some of the relatives, they
were, I didn't know mum was adopted. And then they went and spoke to some of their relatives,
and they said, oh, yeah, a whole bunch of us are.Yeah
We were adopted, so…Very casual about it.
(10:12):
Yeah, yeah.I only can think of maybe with her dying so
young the father didn't want to, you know, let it go with her, you know what I mean, it was another
shock for the children in some respects.Yeah.
But yeah, they said the same, they had no idea till I came along, you know, making this query of
who my sister was. So, yeah, it's amazing really.And it was lovely because I was able to put you in
(10:36):
contact with these are your nephews and nieces. And now they have gained an auntie, and you were
able to show them pictures of what their…Oh, yes.
Biological grandmother would have...I think they would have loved to have met
mummy. You know, it was sad really, but Teresa, the mannerisms and everything that Teresa's got
is really my mother.Yeah.
(10:58):
It’s quite amazing.So, Teresa's Veronica's daughter.
Daughter.Yeah.
And to be called Teresa, which my mother's, you know, favourite sister, you know,
they were inseparable, although we called her Dedda because I couldn't say Teresa. You know,
that was another sort of blessing, it was just wonderful to know that Veronica had named Teresa.
Yeah.I mean, I'm
(11:18):
sure there wasn't the connection, it's just fluky, but it just made me feel so happy for mum again.
Yeah. And you're talking there about just how emotional all of this is, and we had something
else to tell you. So there was a twist in terms of when I was doing the DNA analysis,
I could see something that was potentially going to be even bigger than finding your sister,
(11:42):
because what happens is we do your DNA test, and at the same time, I'm building out your
family tree, and I could see that you were getting this relationship to this family,
this is clearly through your mum's side.And I knew your dad's name, what it was
supposed to be, and a few things were happening. One was you were getting absolutely no matches
with anybody that I would expect, that would link back to that family. And the second thing was,
(12:08):
is that when I was looking at your ancestry, it was coming back as 50% Jewish. And that
obviously did not fit at all with what we knew about who you thought your father was. And what
we didn't want to do during the filming was bombard you with everything at once.
So, it was very much a case of, we've found Veronica's family, and for you to
(12:33):
know who they were and talk to them. And I remember when we were filming, so Lucy,
the series producer and I, sort of said to you, look there's a little bit more information,
but we don't want to hit you with everything at once, have you got time to chat? And we arranged
didn't we to speak to you the following week.Yeah, you said can Mark be with me, which I
think was, you know, obviously I understand, I mean, you did the right thing. It was absolutely,
(12:55):
the way you handled it. But I'm sort of, my mind's working over-time now thinking what is going on.
Yeah.I've got the information I need,
what could they possibly want to know now?Yeah, yeah.
And then obviously we had the meeting and, yeah, it was a hell of a shock.
Yeah.For me,
I was shocked more for mum. To me, I wanted to protect her. I thought, what is going on? I mean,
(13:16):
at first, I didn't quite catch on. I mean Mark was saying, no mum, because I was saying, well,
she looks so like Nicky because I'm thinking it's to do with Veronica. But of course, it was me.
And of course, yeah, it was a bitter blow in a way, but it was incredible how I loved him. And
yet, I really… it was only a name and a figure. I hadn't really had any relationship with him,
(13:39):
but he meant a lot to me. And of course, now all of a sudden,
you know, he’s not my father and I'm back to square one, I've got half a sister.
I was on a high, and then it was right down. And then I'm thinking, mummy,
what's going on? You know, so all these questions and things are whirring around
in my head and not really able to digest it all. So, I did feel a bit confused and upset.
(14:03):
Yeah. I mean, I basically had to say to you, look, Veronica's not your full
sister. I could see from the DNA matching that the amount of DNA sharing was too low.
Yeah.It couldn't possibly be a full sibling, but also
your results were coming back that showed this could not possibly be your father. So, you clearly
had separate dads. And, you know, to have to sit down and tell you that. And I'm very much aware
(14:32):
when I'm doing this just how big this news is going to be, because you will have grown up with
this idea as to who you are, and who your parents are, and what your ancestry is. And I know when
I'm telling somebody what the results are that all of that is shifting, like as you're telling them.
(14:53):
Yeah.And it must be such a sort of a sideways blow.
Well, it's like sliding doors, I mean, all of a sudden, what I am, the reality of who I am,
it's not true, I mean, it's not there, I've got this other side that’s a total mystery now. And
obviously, even with my mum, I think what's going on, you know, don't understand this.
(15:15):
And aunty Dedda I had no idea because all her life she kept saying Nicky ruined our lives and
your life. And so, I don't believe for one minute mummy didn't think I was Nicky's and as far as I
was concerned, I was. And then as I say, I've got half a sister and now I've got no father or is a
mystery. And I think who am I? I felt like orphan Annie, I did, I really felt like orphan Annie,
(15:37):
that's what I kept saying to everybody, you know, and I couldn't figure it out.
And then when you said half Jewish, I thought… and they lived in Salford, I’m thinking well,
I could be passing them in the street. You know, I was part of the Jewish community for
a long time. And you know yourself with weddings and bar mitzvahs there's so many people there,
(15:58):
you know, and I think they could have been part of it because they were all from Salford and
Prestwich area. And I thought, you know, I could have belonged to somebody there I didn't know it.
Yeah, I mean, this is the thing. So, we first of all had to give you this new information,
but also, are you happy with me to try and track down who your biological father might be? Because
(16:19):
you might say to me, I don't want to know, or you might go, I'm not ready for this. And so,
we had to check with you and say, how do you feel?I'd done preliminary and gone, okay I can see that
you come into this family, very large Jewish family living in Salford. And I don't know
which branch you come down at this point when I'm doing this, but I don't want to
(16:41):
do any more work if you're not happy with it. So that was one of the big questions,
was, do you want me to try and track him down?Absolutely Turi. I mean, it just be so wonderful,
if you could. And I'm hoping that one of them will be kind enough to test for DNA
because I appreciate, you know, I'm out on a limb here and it must be a shock for them to hear,
(17:01):
but it would just be such a blessing for me to know who he is. Do I look like him? Or
even just a little bit of background knowledge of, what the history was,
you know, even health wise, all those sorts of questions, as you get older that are necessary.
So obviously what I've been doing since then is trying to track down, somebody from one of the
branches really kindly took a DNA test, and it helped me rule out that one. And some of
(17:26):
them I can rule out simply because whether or not they're male or female or whatever.
I'm starting to home in on two brothers, and one of them was an entrepreneur in Salford,
and I have tried to be in contact with one of their children, one doesn't feel really wants
(17:52):
to help at the moment, the other one, I haven't heard back and it's really difficult because
I don't know whether or not these people have received a letter and they think it's all just
a scam and they don't think it's real.Yeah, which is understandable, yeah.
And also, perfectly understandable from somebody who might go, actually, I don't want to get
involved with this right now. And we have to be super-duper respectful that they don't feel
(18:13):
able to deal with this or want to deal with this right now. But I suppose from our point of view
and from me having done this, I am very much aware that it's not your fault you're in this position.
You didn't ask to be in this position.We've talked about this a lot,
(18:34):
you don't want anything, you just want to know.Exactly. I mean, obviously it would be nice to
know them more, but I mean, I accept that, I mean, to them I'm just a name aren’t I. But
like you say, I'm sort of out on a limb. I don't know who I am. I have a father,
and it would be wonderful to know who he was. And, you know, just know a little bit about,
(18:56):
to have a photograph of him. And I'm quite happy with that. Just as I say, I felt like orphan Annie
when I found out. It was a real bittersweet blow, I thought, I can't believe it, who's my father?
And as you say, through DNA, it's the only way, you know, we don't know do we,
without DNA. It just completes the circle. I’d just love to know who my father was.
(19:19):
Vivienne, it's been so lovely to chat to you and have a catch up.
I'm Turi King and I am here with the lovely Vivienne, who was part of series three of DNA
Family Secrets. And Viv when you came to us, you were wanting to find your sister. So I
know the story was that your mum was incredibly young, she's 17, she's having a relationship
(00:22):
with a much older married man, and she has a baby, and she's put in a mother and baby home,
and the baby is taken from her, and you don't know what's happened to her, and that's who
you wanted to find. All you knew was that her name was Veronica. So, tell me about what was happening
with your mum and how all this came to be.My mother had had this little baby, right back
(00:47):
in early 1944, around that time, in a baby home in Ireland. It was Easter time, she went to church,
it was a maundy Thursday, and when she got back, the baby was gone and she just went berserk,
she went hysterical, she just wanted her baby.She then left Ireland because she just wanted to
(01:08):
blot out the memory. And she went to Crosby and was part of a midwifery nursing home,
and she loved it. I don't know how she could cope because she loved the babies and knowing she'd
lost the baby, but I don't know it must've been a comfort for her and she absolutely adored it.
But her and her sister in Ireland were very close, so she wanted to get her sister
(01:30):
across. She was auntie Teresa, but I couldn't say Teresa, called her Dedda and she was Dedda all her
life. So, they then came to Manchester, and they became waitresses in this… it was called Happy's,
this cafe down in Rusholme. And they were so happy there. And even the guy that owned it,
he loved them. And he looked after them and he was like a father figure to them.
(01:52):
But she was still in love with Nicky. He was a cousin of her sister's husband,
so she used to go over to see her sister, who had five children, and it was St. Patrick's Day,
so she went across to Ireland and of course she was with Nicky, and mummy conceived me.
Then obviously I was born, she had her baby, but she did still continue to go over to see
(02:16):
Nicky because of her family being there. And then eventually auntie Phyllis and uncle Jimmy, fell
on hard times and mummy said, come to England and start again. And that was sort of the beginning
of the end of her and Nicky. But she had her baby now, but obviously still pining and wanting
Veronica as well, with no means of finding her.So, Nicky was this married man who she'd been
(02:38):
having this relationship with, had Veronica, still had the relationship going and then had you.
Yes.So, let's take it back a little bit,
because your mum was really young, wasn't she, when she fell pregnant with Veronica and…
She was 17.Yeah. And it was a difficult
situation because Nicky, who was the father, was married at the time. Obviously, this is a period
(03:03):
where it is completely frowned upon to have a child out of wedlock. So, what happens? What does
he do for your mum? How do they deal with it? He sends her to our mother and baby home in Dublin.
Well, that's what I believe. And mummy understood she was going to keep the baby. I mean, I don't
know what their plan was. I mean, I don't want to be stepping on anybody's toes, but I know he
(03:25):
wanted to go to Liverpool with mummy and leave his family. You know, he was in love with her, but she
couldn't do it. She couldn't on her conscience let him leave a family, I think he had four children.
So, there's no way that was going to happen.So, she just became independent, it was tough
for her, but she came over here and she loved it, and she was removed from him. But of course,
(03:47):
auntie Dedda didn't like it, and they were inseparable, I mean, all their lives,
she was just her rock. I don't know what she would have done without her because although
mummy was very strong in lots of ways, she was ill, she was sick, physically as well as mentally.
So, she's got this baby, she's 17. She thinks she's going to be able to keep the baby.
(04:08):
Yeah.But what happened,
so Easter Sunday she goes to church?No, she went to church on the Maundy
Thursday. So, she just went to church, start of the Easter holidays, and came home thinking
her baby was there and it was gone. As I say, she went berserk, she went hysterical.
I can't even imagine, you'd be frantic.Well, she was broken, totally broken. And
(04:30):
they wouldn't tell you anything, you know, they more or less told you to put yourself
together. And, you know, you frowned upon this unmarried mother, you know.
But the relationship continued with Nicky.Oh, yeah.
Which is how, you know, eventually she has another baby, Nicky's thought
to be the father and that relationship continued for quite a long time, didn’t it.
(04:51):
A long time, I mean, she was in love with him. She loved him so much. And then obviously when
she conceived me, then that was her life, she’d got her baby. And I don't recall Mummy being with
anybody, for many a year. And then I'd say to her, look, I'm going to go off and get married, I don't
want to leave you. You know, you have to start going out, and she'd come out with us, or she
(05:12):
would occasionally see people. But her heart was always with Nicky, she wasn't really interested.
So, you're an only child and you're growing up, so when did you find out
that you had a sister? How old were you?Well, I knew something was going on because
she was always poorly, but they didn't say anything to me. But I think when I was around,
I think probably eight, because I was asking who's my father? And of course she said,
(05:36):
you know, you're not going to like it. And right away I said, it's Nicky. So, I guessed it.
But I didn't have a lot to do with him. He was in Ireland and by then mummy had severed it anyway,
because uncle Jimmy and auntie Phyllis come to live here. And then obviously she then
told me that I have a sister, and of course I was, well why can't we find her? You know,
(05:57):
I always wanted a sister. And she said, well, you know what happened,
and there's no way and means of finding her so. But she says, I've got you and you're so precious,
you know, and that was the end of it.And, then as we got a little bit older and
I got older, sort of talking to her again, I was, sort of, well can't do anything about this. And,
I mean, she wanted to find her. I mean, she loved her, but she thought, what can I do,
(06:22):
you know, I don't think Nicky really knew, well he didn't say… well they
weren’t in touch then, to be honest, but…And it's difficult because in that period,
quite often if babies are adopted quite young, they would be immediately given the name of
the new family. There might not be records of it. And so, to be able to trace somebody like
that incredibly difficult, if not impossible, because the records don't necessarily exist.
(06:45):
Exactly, I was just going to say they destroyed the records as well. So,
she’d just given up as a hopeless cause, as much as she wanted it to happen. And she would have
loved to have found Veronica. But then obviously through DNA and yourself, you made it all happen.
Because I remember when you came and talked to me and I… there were a couple of things. So, it was
like, first of all, we don't quite know when she was born, but we thought she's probably late 70s,
(07:10):
maybe even 80 by this point, giving the timing. And I thought, well, she might not still be alive,
so we went through that. And then the second thing is, is that in order to find a sibling,
it needs to be them and their children who are on the databases already. So, it's that thing where
it's really potentially quite difficult to find a sibling like that who's missing on the databases.
(07:34):
So, we knew that it was going to be a bit of a long shot potentially. But when we did
the DNA testing, somebody turned up on the database and they had a Veronica in their
family tree. And of course, I am thinking, is this right? Have they kept her name?
(07:55):
Which is incredible.Yeah, I got in contact with them,
and they didn't know terribly much about this Veronica. So, you know, ended up talking to
some of their relatives. And then one of them did a DNA test for us to just confirm, and that showed
that this was your sister, Veronica.I can't tell you the kind of like,
(08:18):
the goose pimples you get when you find somebody. And being able to tell you that
this was your Veronica, this was your sister. And I remember we were both in tears when I
was telling you this when we were filming.I mean, and to know they kept her name,
because that for me, and for mummy's sake, I thought, oh, that's just wonderful for her.
(08:39):
She'd just love that, to know that she had her name as well. Because what's the odds of that,
they kept the name? I mean, it was really fantastic, and maybe it wouldn't
have triggered for you if there hadn't been a Veronica there on the listing, I don't know.
Well, I could tell that this was a relative, and I could see going back through the family tree,
it would have been something where I would have been going, okay,
this is a line to look at. But of course, with that in it, you think, oh my goodness, okay.
(09:04):
One of the closer relatives did a DNA test for us just to actually confirm,
and obviously really sad thing about it was that Veronica had passed away incredibly young… 25.
And to leave three young children, one was only 18 months old.
Yeah.I mean, in some ways
it sounds awful, but I'm so glad mummy didn't find her, because she’d have only have lost her again.
(09:29):
Yeah.We would have only just found
each other and then she'd had all the trauma of that. I mean, it sounds awful but, in some ways,
it was a blessing in some respects, for her, because she had so much trauma over Veronica
for so long, and then to have lost her. Oh, I don't know how she would have coped with that.
Yeah.So…
And it was a surprise, obviously, to this family because they had never known
(09:52):
that Veronica was adopted.No, I believe not, yeah.
In those, sort of, early conversations that I was having with some of the relatives, they
were, I didn't know mum was adopted. And then they went and spoke to some of their relatives,
and they said, oh, yeah, a whole bunch of us are.Yeah
We were adopted, so…Very casual about it.
(10:12):
Yeah, yeah.I only can think of maybe with her dying so
young the father didn't want to, you know, let it go with her, you know what I mean, it was another
shock for the children in some respects.Yeah.
But yeah, they said the same, they had no idea till I came along, you know, making this query of
who my sister was. So, yeah, it's amazing really.And it was lovely because I was able to put you in
(10:36):
contact with these are your nephews and nieces. And now they have gained an auntie, and you were
able to show them pictures of what their…Oh, yes.
Biological grandmother would have...I think they would have loved to have met
mummy. You know, it was sad really, but Teresa, the mannerisms and everything that Teresa's got
is really my mother.Yeah.
(10:58):
It’s quite amazing.So, Teresa's Veronica's daughter.
Daughter.Yeah.
And to be called Teresa, which my mother's, you know, favourite sister, you know,
they were inseparable, although we called her Dedda because I couldn't say Teresa. You know,
that was another sort of blessing, it was just wonderful to know that Veronica had named Teresa.
Yeah.I mean, I'm
(11:18):
sure there wasn't the connection, it's just fluky, but it just made me feel so happy for mum again.
Yeah. And you're talking there about just how emotional all of this is, and we had something
else to tell you. So there was a twist in terms of when I was doing the DNA analysis,
I could see something that was potentially going to be even bigger than finding your sister,
(11:42):
because what happens is we do your DNA test, and at the same time, I'm building out your
family tree, and I could see that you were getting this relationship to this family,
this is clearly through your mum's side.And I knew your dad's name, what it was
supposed to be, and a few things were happening. One was you were getting absolutely no matches
with anybody that I would expect, that would link back to that family. And the second thing was,
(12:08):
is that when I was looking at your ancestry, it was coming back as 50% Jewish. And that
obviously did not fit at all with what we knew about who you thought your father was. And what
we didn't want to do during the filming was bombard you with everything at once.
So, it was very much a case of, we've found Veronica's family, and for you to
(12:33):
know who they were and talk to them. And I remember when we were filming, so Lucy,
the series producer and I, sort of said to you, look there's a little bit more information,
but we don't want to hit you with everything at once, have you got time to chat? And we arranged
didn't we to speak to you the following week.Yeah, you said can Mark be with me, which I
think was, you know, obviously I understand, I mean, you did the right thing. It was absolutely,
(12:55):
the way you handled it. But I'm sort of, my mind's working over-time now thinking what is going on.
Yeah.I've got the information I need,
what could they possibly want to know now?Yeah, yeah.
And then obviously we had the meeting and, yeah, it was a hell of a shock.
Yeah.For me,
I was shocked more for mum. To me, I wanted to protect her. I thought, what is going on? I mean,
(13:16):
at first, I didn't quite catch on. I mean Mark was saying, no mum, because I was saying, well,
she looks so like Nicky because I'm thinking it's to do with Veronica. But of course, it was me.
And of course, yeah, it was a bitter blow in a way, but it was incredible how I loved him. And
yet, I really… it was only a name and a figure. I hadn't really had any relationship with him,
(13:39):
but he meant a lot to me. And of course, now all of a sudden,
you know, he’s not my father and I'm back to square one, I've got half a sister.
I was on a high, and then it was right down. And then I'm thinking, mummy,
what's going on? You know, so all these questions and things are whirring around
in my head and not really able to digest it all. So, I did feel a bit confused and upset.
(14:03):
Yeah. I mean, I basically had to say to you, look, Veronica's not your full
sister. I could see from the DNA matching that the amount of DNA sharing was too low.
Yeah.It couldn't possibly be a full sibling, but also
your results were coming back that showed this could not possibly be your father. So, you clearly
had separate dads. And, you know, to have to sit down and tell you that. And I'm very much aware
(14:32):
when I'm doing this just how big this news is going to be, because you will have grown up with
this idea as to who you are, and who your parents are, and what your ancestry is. And I know when
I'm telling somebody what the results are that all of that is shifting, like as you're telling them.
(14:53):
Yeah.And it must be such a sort of a sideways blow.
Well, it's like sliding doors, I mean, all of a sudden, what I am, the reality of who I am,
it's not true, I mean, it's not there, I've got this other side that’s a total mystery now. And
obviously, even with my mum, I think what's going on, you know, don't understand this.
(15:15):
And aunty Dedda I had no idea because all her life she kept saying Nicky ruined our lives and
your life. And so, I don't believe for one minute mummy didn't think I was Nicky's and as far as I
was concerned, I was. And then as I say, I've got half a sister and now I've got no father or is a
mystery. And I think who am I? I felt like orphan Annie, I did, I really felt like orphan Annie,
(15:37):
that's what I kept saying to everybody, you know, and I couldn't figure it out.
And then when you said half Jewish, I thought… and they lived in Salford, I’m thinking well,
I could be passing them in the street. You know, I was part of the Jewish community for
a long time. And you know yourself with weddings and bar mitzvahs there's so many people there,
(15:58):
you know, and I think they could have been part of it because they were all from Salford and
Prestwich area. And I thought, you know, I could have belonged to somebody there I didn't know it.
Yeah, I mean, this is the thing. So, we first of all had to give you this new information,
but also, are you happy with me to try and track down who your biological father might be? Because
(16:19):
you might say to me, I don't want to know, or you might go, I'm not ready for this. And so,
we had to check with you and say, how do you feel?I'd done preliminary and gone, okay I can see that
you come into this family, very large Jewish family living in Salford. And I don't know
which branch you come down at this point when I'm doing this, but I don't want to
(16:41):
do any more work if you're not happy with it. So that was one of the big questions,
was, do you want me to try and track him down?Absolutely Turi. I mean, it just be so wonderful,
if you could. And I'm hoping that one of them will be kind enough to test for DNA
because I appreciate, you know, I'm out on a limb here and it must be a shock for them to hear,
(17:01):
but it would just be such a blessing for me to know who he is. Do I look like him? Or
even just a little bit of background knowledge of, what the history was,
you know, even health wise, all those sorts of questions, as you get older that are necessary.
So obviously what I've been doing since then is trying to track down, somebody from one of the
branches really kindly took a DNA test, and it helped me rule out that one. And some of
(17:26):
them I can rule out simply because whether or not they're male or female or whatever.
I'm starting to home in on two brothers, and one of them was an entrepreneur in Salford,
and I have tried to be in contact with one of their children, one doesn't feel really wants
(17:52):
to help at the moment, the other one, I haven't heard back and it's really difficult because
I don't know whether or not these people have received a letter and they think it's all just
a scam and they don't think it's real.Yeah, which is understandable, yeah.
And also, perfectly understandable from somebody who might go, actually, I don't want to get
involved with this right now. And we have to be super-duper respectful that they don't feel
(18:13):
able to deal with this or want to deal with this right now. But I suppose from our point of view
and from me having done this, I am very much aware that it's not your fault you're in this position.
You didn't ask to be in this position.We've talked about this a lot,
(18:34):
you don't want anything, you just want to know.Exactly. I mean, obviously it would be nice to
know them more, but I mean, I accept that, I mean, to them I'm just a name aren’t I. But
like you say, I'm sort of out on a limb. I don't know who I am. I have a father,
and it would be wonderful to know who he was. And, you know, just know a little bit about,
(18:56):
to have a photograph of him. And I'm quite happy with that. Just as I say, I felt like orphan Annie
when I found out. It was a real bittersweet blow, I thought, I can't believe it, who's my father?
And as you say, through DNA, it's the only way, you know, we don't know do we,
without DNA. It just completes the circle. I’d just love to know who my father was.
(19:19):
Vivienne, it's been so lovely to chat to you and have a catch up.
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