September 16, 2025 • 24 mins
In this premiere episode of Season Five, co-hosts Peterson Toscano (he/him) and Sweet Miche (they/them) explore the urgent question: How do we balance peace and protest in today’s world?
Prophetic Voices for Troubled TimesAustralian Friend Greg Rolles shares his experiences with nonviolent direct action, police intimidation, and the risks of faithful disobedience. Arrested more than 25 times for his activism, Greg challenges Quakers to move beyond polite pacifism.
“Peace is not the same as passivity. We think that peace is about being polite and nice and being quiet in public spaces. But peace is proactive, and it calls us to take action and take risk.” —Greg Rolles
Greg’s article We Are Having an Effect: The Necessity of Spiritual Resistance in Climate and Justice Activism appears in the September 2025 issue of Friends Journal (add link to article at FriendsJournal.org). You can also watch the extended interview on the Friends Journal YouTube channel (insert hyperlink).
Quaker Renewal in a Fast-Moving WorldJade Rockwell, pastor at West Elkton Friends Meeting in Ohio, lifts up the role of renewal and revival in Quaker practice today.
“Our emphasis has shifted in the 21st century more towards being a people called to action. We’re living in a time when inaction is risky. If we’re not able to respond to our world, bad things can happen—and we may be morally responsible if we aren’t able to be active.” —Jade Rockwell
You can find more of Jade’s ministry in the QuakerSpeak video, “Transforming Quakerism in Troubling Times” at QuakerSpeak.com or on the QuakerSpeak YouTube channel.
Anger, Grief, and ActionThis month’s Friends Journal book review features Richard Rohr’s The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage (Convergent Books). Rohr highlights how the anger of prophets like Amos and Jeremiah matures into grief, then into transformative action. Read Wendy Cooler’s full review at FriendsJournal.org (insert hyperlink).
Game RecommendationIn addition to books, this season introduces a new segment: recommendations beyond the bookshelf. Peterson suggests Fate of the Fellowship, a cooperative board game by Matt Leacock, creator of Pandemic. Players work together in Tolkien’s Middle-earth to guide the Fellowship while resisting the growing Shadow. Learn more at BoardGameGeek or through major retailers.
Listener ResponsesFriends share their favorite Quaker expressions—from “That of God in everyone” to “Hold you in the Light.” Eleanor from Colorado reflected,
“I think of all people as a Friend or a buddy. That framework helps me move through life more peacefully.”
Question for Next MonthQuaker gatherings often create space for specific affinity groups—such as Friends of Color, Young Adult Friends, or FLGBTQC (Friends for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer Concerns).
We want to hear from you: How has being rooted in a small group changed the way you share your voice in bigger settings?
Leave us a voicemail or text at 317-QUAKERS (317-782-5377). (+1 if outside the U.S.) You can also reply by email at podcast@FriendsJournal.org or on our social media channels.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode- Greg Rolles, We Are Having an Effect — Friends Journal (September 2025) [link]
- QuakerSpeak video: Transforming Quakerism in Troubling Times — QuakerSpeak.com
- Richard Rohr, The Tears of Things (Convergent Books) — [FriendsJournal.org book review link]
- Fate of the Fellowship board game — BoardGameGeek
Quakers Today is the companion podcast to Friends Journal and other Friends Publishing Corporation content. It is written, hosted, and produced by Peterson Toscano and Miche McCall.
Sponsors- Friends Fiduciary: Providing values-aligned investment services since 1898. Learn more at FriendsFiduciary.org.
- American Friends Service Committee (AFSC): Working for peace, justice, and human dignity worldwide. Learn more at AFSC.org.
Music in this episode comes from Epidemic Sound.
For the extended video version of this episode, visit the Friends Journal YouTube channel (insert hyperlink). For a full transcript, visit QuakersToday.org.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:03):
In this episode of Quakers Today, we consider the question,
how do we balance peace and protest?
>> Sweet Miche (00:10):
You'll hear about Richard Rohr's new book, the
Tears of Things. He offers a look at prophetic
wisdom where anger and injustice can
mature into grief and then into action.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:21):
Jade Rockwell shares a, uh, vision for Quakers and
other faith communities in these troubling times.
>> Sweet Miche (00:28):
And we hear a powerful prophetic message from Australia.
Greg Rolles tells us about his experiences
with nonviolent direct action in an age of climate
collapse and colonial violence. What does it
mean to be faithfully disobedient?
I'm Sweet Miche.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:44):
And I'm Peterson Centoscano. This is season
five, episode one of the Quakers Today
podcast, a project of Friends Publishing
Corporation. This season of Quakers
Today is sponsored by the American Friends Service
Committee and Friends Fiduciary.
Hello and thank you for joining
(01:04):
Sweetmeesh and me for the premiere of season
five of Quakers Today. This season we're
introducing a new feature for you, a video
version of the podcast.
>> Sweet Miche (01:16):
And you might be thinking, but it's podcast.
Why do you need video?
>> Peterson Toscano (01:21):
Yeah, as an audiophile, I wondered
the same thing, but turns out more and
more people are enjoying their favorite podcasts in the form
of YouTube videos. So we're going to
continue to produce a high quality, edited and
polished audio version with all the bells and whistles,
and we'll provide you with a longer, loosely
(01:41):
edited video.
>> Sweet Miche (01:45):
This actually solves a problem we've faced in the last four
seasons. Our guests have a lot to share,
but we end up cutting a lot to keep our podcast
under 30 minutes. The video version gives us
more space for the guests, and you get to see our
facial expressions and that weird purple
halo thing hovering above Peterson's head.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:06):
It helps me to achieve that studio sound.
>> Sweet Miche (02:09):
It's adorable. And you'll find the extended video
version of this podcast on the Friends Journal
YouTube channel, and we'll have a link for it in our show
notes@quakerstoday.org.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:21):
Now, uh, today's show comes at a time when many people
are asking, how do I respond to the
multiple crises happening in my country and the
world around me?
>> Sweet Miche (02:32):
Yeah, we go deep today, and
we hope you walk away with greater clarity and
direction. It won't all be heavy,
though. Joy is a part of our
resistance.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:45):
We're going to end the show with Quaker terms.
We Quakers have this whole vocabulary that
can sound bizarre to newcomers. Personally,
I'm a fan of the phrase, I'll let the silence
speak for me. Depending on how you say it,
the phrase sounds Profound or
snarky?
>> Sweet Miche (03:04):
Definitely. I've heard it used both ways.
I like the Quaker use of the phrase holding something in
the light. A, uh, person, a concern, a
difficult truth. And that idea
of holding connects so well with our episode today. We're
uh, going to be talking with people who are holding
the grief of the world, the anger of injustice
(03:26):
and the hope for a better future all at
the same time.
>> Peterson Toscano (03:30):
Yes, people like Australian Quaker Greg
Rolles. Sweetmesh, you spoke to Greg
for almost an hour about direct
nonviolent activism. The
authorities arrested Greg over
25 times for his disruptive
activism, including actions with Blockade
Australia. This is a network established
(03:52):
to address global environmental destruction.
In the world of social change movements, Greg is
known as a rebel who employs nonviolent
tactics. He believes these actions are working.
For the September 2025 issue of
Friends Journal, he wrote the article we're
having an the Necessity of Spiritual
(04:13):
Resistance in Climate Changed and Justice
Activism.
>> Sweet Miche (04:17):
Greg read part of his article for me and shared some
experiences of activism, um, and arrests.
He offered a strong critique of Quakers and
Quaker meetings that talk a lot about peace and justice but
act passively. He
criticized the tendency for contemporary middle
class Quakers to outsource their activism,
um, to professionals. His words are
(04:40):
prophetic and um, like.
>> Peterson Toscano (04:43):
With most prophets, Greg's words will
provoke, offend and challenge some of
you. That's basically the job of a
prophet. Greg also provides words of
encouragement and guidance for young activists.
>> Sweet Miche (04:57):
For this segment, Peterson listened to the conversation,
uh, multiple times. He isolated
Greg's words and edited them down, uh, through a
process known as erasure. This distills the
interview to a raw message while, uh, maintaining the
integrity of the conversation.
After you hear Greg read excerpts of his article
and share his message, you may be curious to
(05:19):
listen to our whole conversation. It's available on
Friends Journal's YouTube page.
>> Greg Rolles (05:26):
I've been friends and connected to friends since 2012.
Even though I give us as a
society a lot of crap about what we should be doing, they still
accept me and support me, which is pretty nice
considering how critical I can be. And I'll never say to
anyone like, you're not doing enough because I don't know your circumstances
or your situations. But I am saying to us as
(05:46):
a whole, as a community, what are we doing in
this time of extreme violence and genocide
and colonial climate collapse? Police have raided
places where I live three times. Angry
magistrates have condemned me and sworn to make an example
of my behaviour so that others will not follow. People
lodged in the system of violent privilege only react
this way, when there is an effect, when there is a
(06:09):
fear of an ongoing effect in which more people are
involved, the climate crisis is
overwhelming. Friends have descended from a
spiritual lineage that thrives in the overwhelming and
stagnates in the comfortable. This is not to say
we seek to be overwhelmed or to do too much.
Simply that when the world at large seems
overwhelming, it can be easy to trust in the light and let it guide
(06:31):
our steps. For far too long, we have not taken
steps on this journey concerning ourselves more
with the ways of the world than with the calling of the light.
The world is a scary and distracting place.
I think the point is that when you try, when you
engage with the problems of our time, colonialism,
violence, state violence, all the big oppressive things which are
(06:52):
causing us harm, you can't lose when you move, even
if you, you know, you might lose your worldly wealth, even if you might lose
your status and your respectability. As we face
climate and colonial crises, we have to
invest our talents in change, otherwise we're going to lose everything.
And the climate crisis and watching the genocide in
Gaza, the war in West Papua, and
(07:14):
you know, what's happening in Sudan, this is all from Western
consumption. Quakers in the West, I feel we're just not
answering that call. Like I've often said we should just go sit in the
driveways of the water lawmakers until they send us to jail. And I get
people who sort of say, well, that won't have an effect. Well, maybe not.
Is faithfulness about effect? Is our values about effect
or is it about our integrity? So I think it's about
literally trying to stick our faith, stick into the
(07:36):
spoke of the will that's crushing us. How we do that, I don't
know, but that's why we're people of faith. And I think it's about building
community in action as we go, rather than what we're doing
now in the west, which is stagnating and trusting
in the middle class ways of paying people off to do things, which
is part of the problem and upholds the problem, in my
opinion, rather than actually does anything about it.
The middle class kind of whiteness has
(07:59):
definitely taken the peace testimony over. Uh, for
those of us in the west, we have this big peace testimony and
friends love to talk about peace, but peace is not the same
as passivity. We think that peace is about being
polite and nice and being quiet in public spaces
and there's a place for that. But what peace is, it's
proactive and it calls us to take action. And take
(08:19):
risk. Uh, I've been to lots of rallies and
protests and blockades where young people do
get angry and they do shout at police and they do these
things. I, uh, don't condemn them. I don't see that as
violent. I actually see that as part of the peace testimony because they're
speaking up for the injustice, for the violence, for
the hurt. Uh, I see the state, and so called the
(08:39):
Australian state as incredibly violent, as
incredibly murderous and vindictive and vicious.
And sometimes friends, at least in, in my
experience, they sort of see both sides as equal. They want to
condemn both sides. And I'm just like, that is not
the reality of ripping babies away from
families, which still happens in record numbers on this continent.
I'm not going to condemn people who turn up fighting for
(09:02):
our future and against injustice. I'm not going to
condemn them. I'm going to say, good job. If you want to do property
damage, like, you're probably just going to go straight to jail and get caught, but if
that's what you want to do, this thing is killing us. Of course
it's okay. And I'm more involved and
interested in supporting people doing that stuff. Even if they
swear or, you know, they don't have the perfect
(09:22):
politics. At least they're trying to be active in the face of
oppression instead of supporting people who are
doing that work or saying, well, we'll come with you and we'll
support you emotionally and maybe we can work together. They
tend to separate or segregate from that. Then just
pay professionals to do the job, and the professionals
are not doing the job. It's going to just keep getting worse.
(09:43):
So I'd say now is the time to take risks rather
than waiting until fascism is fully in hold. And
if that feels too much, just consider the
consequences of our inaction. And there's lots of
ways to disrupt things without necessarily getting arrested.
That's also avenues you can take, but be disruptive.
Slow down the death machine as best you can. That's,
(10:03):
that's what we need to do. And I think that's the spiritual
nexus of Quakerism. Be scared,
but act that can. That can be in all forms, whether you are going
to sit in the driveway and block a, uh, weapons
company. But it also means talking about the privilege
and things, even if you don't fully understand it. I don't fully understand
the violence and privilege and how it affects my lives. Don't
(10:24):
be scared to talk about it or challenge it and trust your guts.
People with respectability and maybe elders
they will subconsciously protect their privilege. Don't be scared about
it. Be scared, but act anyway.
And if you get it wrong. It's better to get it wrong and talk to
your community about accountability than it is to not act
100%. There's no room for polite peace,
(10:44):
only active peace.
The world is a scary and distracting place.
But then there's the light. The light that made Quaker
founder, uh, George Fox walk away from his home life and into the
fields against all common sense. That made many more of
our ancestors walk knowingly into danger,
imprisonment and death to keep the Quaker witness
(11:04):
in the public eye and the truth available to all.
Without those Friends risking their talents, we would have no
society and no teachings to learn from. If people
from our spiritual ancestry had considered the best practical use
of their time, they would have stayed at home and buried their
talents. If we rest in our comfortable lives,
there will be no descendants to pass our spiritual gifts onto.
(11:26):
We only need to move. Sitting this one
out is to bury our talents.
I don't have an answer to all of our problems.
That's why I wrote the article. It's about, what is the light
telling me to do now? You know, and the main
problem, particularly for Quakers and other people of
faith, is that we just kind of get overwhelmed and we go into our
(11:47):
own worlds where it's about retirement and how I can
do activacy stuff that's respectable, that
the wider society will be, oh, I write letters and isn't that nice?
Whereas what the light is calling us to do is to witness and get
in the way of these things. Actually,
we've got to remember L, O, R, E, the old law of how to look after
land and look after each other. That's the call, and that's
(12:07):
what we, as prodigal children of the Creator need to
remember.
>> Jade Rockwell (12:13):
I think one of the things that our meetings and churches
have struggled with is how do
you still hold space for that present
action of the Holy Spirit? That's becoming harder
and harder because our world is moving
at such a fast rate now. It's like we're being
bombarded with all of these conditions.
(12:34):
We need to find practices in our meetings that allow
us to do that. My name is Jade
Rockwell. Pronouns are she, her. I
live in Richmond, Indiana, and
I am one of the pastors at West Elkton
Friends Meeting in West Elkton, Ohio.
Renewal is a perpetual
part of, like, a healthy organization having
(12:57):
healthy processes by which we
evaluate where we're at and
connect to what's going on around us. And
in a in a way that's adaptive and
responsive to our, uh, living reality.
Quakerism itself started as a
revival or renewal process for
(13:17):
Christianity at a time when some
folks were feeling like the, the existing church
wasn't possible to reform
theologically. Our emphasis has shifted in the
21st century more towards we are a people
called to action. We're living in a time when we
can see that inaction is risky. If we're not
able to respond to our world,
(13:40):
bad things can happen. And we
may be morally responsible
if we aren't able to be active. The
difficulties with attracting young people
is the sort of sense that Friends aren't able
to act in a responsive
way to the world. And sometimes people may
(14:00):
say, well, that's the Quaker way. The Quaker way is
slow. But I think if we look at our history, that's not
the only Quaker way. Abolition is something
that we remember
as a time when God moved us in a good
direction. Embodying our
faith in action is also the Quaker way,
(14:20):
and we may need to lean more into that. This
stagnation that we experience is not unique to
Quakers. Right. This is a very human thing. Our
institutions tend to calcify with time.
Sometimes they like, re reactively
shut down creative solutions or
innovations that may actually be the way forward.
But one of the amazing things that institutions
(14:42):
can do is that if
they figure out a way to hold space for that
creativity and, uh, innovation in life to continue,
they can actually live a lot longer than any of us can.
And that could be pretty powerful
and a pretty good way for God to work in our world
over generations.
>> Sweet Miche (15:02):
That was Jade Rockwell from the QuakerSpeak video
transforming Quakerism in Troubling Times.
A, uh, big thank you to Layla Cuthrell for
filming and editing these videos. You can watch
them on YouTube or QuakerSpeak.com
Jade mentioned the Quaker Connect program. It's a
resource for meetings and churches looking to build deeper
(15:24):
involvement in their communities. You can learn more@, uh,
quakerconnect.org
you.
>> Peterson Toscano (15:31):
Also heard Greg Rolles talking about and reading from
his article. We are having, in effect,
the Necessity of Spiritual Resistance
in Climate and Justice Activism.
It appears in the September 2025 issue of
Friends Journal and at friendsjournal.org
my conversation with.
>> Sweet Miche (15:50):
Greg came at the perfect time. I've been
struggling lately with our troubling times.
I'm angry at the current administration for
stripping rights away from immigrants, trans
children and the people in Gaza and
so many others. And even
little things can set off my anger right now. Like
when cars park in the bike lane, and I want
(16:13):
to scream at them.
>> Peterson Toscano (16:15):
Uh, I think a lot of us feel
outrage right now. The Quaker peace testimony
isn't about shutting down the anger, though.
It's about acknowledging it and allowing it
to transform into something else.
In the August 2025 issue of Friends Journal,
Wendy Cooler reviewed Richard Rohr's new
(16:36):
book. It's called the Tears of
Things Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of
Outrage. Rohr starts with those
famously angry Hebrew prophets like
Amos and Jeremiah,
right?
>> Sweet Miche (16:50):
The ones who are always shouting about injustice. And
Rohr points out something that we often miss. Their
anger matures into grief.
Rohr suggests that the prophetic path isn't about
being right, but about empathy.
It's not about standing apart and judging. It's about
suffering with the world.
The book is the Tears of Prophetic
(17:12):
Wisdom, um, for an Age of Outrage. It's
written by Richard Rohr and published by Convergent
Books. You can read more of Wendy Kuller's review
at friendsjournal.org
Peterson, you also have a recommendation for us.
>> Peterson Toscano (17:27):
That's correct. This season, in addition to the book
review we share with you, our listeners, we're going to also
share a non book
recommendation.
So today I have a game for you.
Fate of the Fellowship. It's
a brand new cooperative board game designed
by Matt Laycock. He's the
(17:48):
creator of the very popular and award
winning cooperative game Pandemic. In Fate of the
Fellowship, players step into JRR uh
Tolkien's Middle earth. They guide the
Fellowship while resisting the growing shadow.
It's story, rich, strategic and you
win or lose together. That's what makes
(18:08):
it cooperative. You can find Fate of the
Fellowship at Fantasy flight games on
BoardGameGeek and through most major game
retailers. Thank you for
joining us for this episode of Quakers Today. If
you liked what you heard today and you listened to our show on
Spotify or Apple Podcast or YouTube
videos, please take a moment to rate and review.
(18:32):
Make Sweet Miche and me very happy by sharing uh
Quakers Today with your Friends and on your social
media. Quakers Today is written and
produced by me, Peterson, Toscano and
me Sweet Miche.
>> Sweet Miche (18:45):
Music on UH Today's show comes from Epidemic Sound
Season five of uh.
>> Peterson Toscano (18:49):
Quakers Today is sponsored by Friends
Fiduciary. Friends Fiduciary
combines Quaker values with expert investment
management. They serve more than
460 organizations with
ethical portfolios, shareholder
advocacy, and a deep commitment to
justice and sustainability.
(19:09):
Friends Fiduciary blends Quaker principles
with smart mission driven investing.
With 100% of revenue supporting their
mission and a 100% Quaker board.
They help hundreds of faith based groups invest
ethically and affordably. Learn
more@friends fiduciary.org this
(19:30):
season is also.
>> Sweet Miche (19:31):
Sponsored by American Friends Service Committee.
AFSC works at the forefront of social change to
meet urgent needs, challenge injustice and build
peace. Did you know
AFSC helped thousands of Jewish and non
Jewish refugees during World War II to
resettle in the US today.
(19:52):
AFSC works towards a future where everyone can
thrive, has access to legal status and
is safe from detention and deportation.
Learn how you can take action for immigrant safety,
dignity and well
being@afsc.org
stronger immigrants.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:12):
Visit QuakersToday.org to see our show notes and
a full transcript of this episode
and check out the extended video of
today's episode on the Friends Journal YouTube
page. And if you stick around after the closing,
you're going to hear listeners responses to the question
what is your favorite Quaker term or
phrase? Something common among Friends but odd, uh,
(20:35):
to outsiders.
>> Sweet Miche (20:37):
Thank you Friends for listening. May you have
clarity and courage as you engage with the world.
In a moment you'll hear listeners voicemails about
common phrases among Quakers.
They may be odd to outsiders,
but first we'll share the question for next month.
(20:58):
Quaker gatherings often provide spaces
for the spiritual needs of affinity groups.
This includes spaces for Friends of Color or
Young Adult Friends.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:08):
Mhm. Or the community I've been a part of for years.
It's flgbtqc.
Say that fast.
F L G B T Q C. It stands for Friends for
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender
and Queer Concerns. Okay, so here is the question.
How has being rooted in a small group
(21:31):
changed the way you share your voice in
bigger settings? And it doesn't have to be a Quaker group, just any kind of small
group that it just was supportive that way.
>> Eleanor (21:40):
Hmm.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:40):
Yeah.
>> Sweet Miche (21:41):
And yeah, to respond you can leave a voice
memo with your name and the town where you live.
The number to call is 317-QUAKERS.
That's
317-782-537-7317,
and plus one. If calling from outside the USA,
(22:02):
you can also send us an email which is
podcastriendsjournal.
I have these contact details in our show notes
over@quakerstoday.org
now, uh, we hear.
>> Peterson Toscano (22:14):
Answers to the question what is your favorite Quaker term that
is common among Friends but strange to outsiders?
In social media, Amy Ward Brimmer wrote
way opens or Way
will open obviously.
And we also received the following voicemails.
>> Eleanor (22:33):
My name is Eleanor, I'm calling from Colorado and I'm fairly
New to Quakers and still learning the lingo. But my favorite Quaker
jargon is friend with a capital F. I
struggled with road rage, and before I found Quakerism, something
that really helped me overcome that and have more peaceful
experiences in traffic was a comment from the Internet
that suggested calling people that are cutting you off buddy instead
(22:53):
of cursing them. When I found Quakerism and I learned
about the friend, I felt like that was a framework that I should apply
beyond the road to other areas of my life and to think of all
people as a friend or a buddy. So
thank you, friends. I really enjoy the show and I'm looking forward
to learning more jargon in your next episode. My
dog was whining a little bit there, so, uh,
(23:14):
hopefully that didn't just wreck the entire voicemail. But, uh,
she's very sweet and happy and she just saw a squirrel. Thank
you so much. Have a great day.
>> Ken (23:25):
My name is Ken. I live in southeastern
Pennsylvania. My favorite Quaker term
is there
That of God in everyone.
>> Eleanor (23:37):
Tom Hoban, Rhode Island,
Quaker and Episcopalian. My favorite
Quaker saying is, I will
hold you in the light. I will hold
you in the light. I often use that. Many people say,
I'll pray for you, and some take offense, but I think
that's a beautiful image. Thank you so much. Enjoying your
podcast.
>> Peterson Toscano (23:58):
Thanks to everyone who sent in the voicemails. They're my
favorite. I love the voicemails a lot. Uh,
and you have a chance to do it again with our next
question. Mish, what is our question for next month?
>> Sweet Miche (24:09):
Our question for next month is how has
being rooted in a small group changed the
way you share your voice in bigger settings?
>> Peterson Toscano (24:19):
Yeah, let us know. Find out all the
details@quakerstoday.org.
In this episode of Quakers Today, we consider the question,
how do we balance peace and protest?
>> Sweet Miche (00:10):
You'll hear about Richard Rohr's new book, the
Tears of Things. He offers a look at prophetic
wisdom where anger and injustice can
mature into grief and then into action.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:21):
Jade Rockwell shares a, uh, vision for Quakers and
other faith communities in these troubling times.
>> Sweet Miche (00:28):
And we hear a powerful prophetic message from Australia.
Greg Rolles tells us about his experiences
with nonviolent direct action in an age of climate
collapse and colonial violence. What does it
mean to be faithfully disobedient?
I'm Sweet Miche.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:44):
And I'm Peterson Centoscano. This is season
five, episode one of the Quakers Today
podcast, a project of Friends Publishing
Corporation. This season of Quakers
Today is sponsored by the American Friends Service
Committee and Friends Fiduciary.
Hello and thank you for joining
(01:04):
Sweetmeesh and me for the premiere of season
five of Quakers Today. This season we're
introducing a new feature for you, a video
version of the podcast.
>> Sweet Miche (01:16):
And you might be thinking, but it's podcast.
Why do you need video?
>> Peterson Toscano (01:21):
Yeah, as an audiophile, I wondered
the same thing, but turns out more and
more people are enjoying their favorite podcasts in the form
of YouTube videos. So we're going to
continue to produce a high quality, edited and
polished audio version with all the bells and whistles,
and we'll provide you with a longer, loosely
(01:41):
edited video.
>> Sweet Miche (01:45):
This actually solves a problem we've faced in the last four
seasons. Our guests have a lot to share,
but we end up cutting a lot to keep our podcast
under 30 minutes. The video version gives us
more space for the guests, and you get to see our
facial expressions and that weird purple
halo thing hovering above Peterson's head.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:06):
It helps me to achieve that studio sound.
>> Sweet Miche (02:09):
It's adorable. And you'll find the extended video
version of this podcast on the Friends Journal
YouTube channel, and we'll have a link for it in our show
notes@quakerstoday.org.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:21):
Now, uh, today's show comes at a time when many people
are asking, how do I respond to the
multiple crises happening in my country and the
world around me?
>> Sweet Miche (02:32):
Yeah, we go deep today, and
we hope you walk away with greater clarity and
direction. It won't all be heavy,
though. Joy is a part of our
resistance.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:45):
We're going to end the show with Quaker terms.
We Quakers have this whole vocabulary that
can sound bizarre to newcomers. Personally,
I'm a fan of the phrase, I'll let the silence
speak for me. Depending on how you say it,
the phrase sounds Profound or
snarky?
>> Sweet Miche (03:04):
Definitely. I've heard it used both ways.
I like the Quaker use of the phrase holding something in
the light. A, uh, person, a concern, a
difficult truth. And that idea
of holding connects so well with our episode today. We're
uh, going to be talking with people who are holding
the grief of the world, the anger of injustice
(03:26):
and the hope for a better future all at
the same time.
>> Peterson Toscano (03:30):
Yes, people like Australian Quaker Greg
Rolles. Sweetmesh, you spoke to Greg
for almost an hour about direct
nonviolent activism. The
authorities arrested Greg over
25 times for his disruptive
activism, including actions with Blockade
Australia. This is a network established
(03:52):
to address global environmental destruction.
In the world of social change movements, Greg is
known as a rebel who employs nonviolent
tactics. He believes these actions are working.
For the September 2025 issue of
Friends Journal, he wrote the article we're
having an the Necessity of Spiritual
(04:13):
Resistance in Climate Changed and Justice
Activism.
>> Sweet Miche (04:17):
Greg read part of his article for me and shared some
experiences of activism, um, and arrests.
He offered a strong critique of Quakers and
Quaker meetings that talk a lot about peace and justice but
act passively. He
criticized the tendency for contemporary middle
class Quakers to outsource their activism,
um, to professionals. His words are
(04:40):
prophetic and um, like.
>> Peterson Toscano (04:43):
With most prophets, Greg's words will
provoke, offend and challenge some of
you. That's basically the job of a
prophet. Greg also provides words of
encouragement and guidance for young activists.
>> Sweet Miche (04:57):
For this segment, Peterson listened to the conversation,
uh, multiple times. He isolated
Greg's words and edited them down, uh, through a
process known as erasure. This distills the
interview to a raw message while, uh, maintaining the
integrity of the conversation.
After you hear Greg read excerpts of his article
and share his message, you may be curious to
(05:19):
listen to our whole conversation. It's available on
Friends Journal's YouTube page.
>> Greg Rolles (05:26):
I've been friends and connected to friends since 2012.
Even though I give us as a
society a lot of crap about what we should be doing, they still
accept me and support me, which is pretty nice
considering how critical I can be. And I'll never say to
anyone like, you're not doing enough because I don't know your circumstances
or your situations. But I am saying to us as
(05:46):
a whole, as a community, what are we doing in
this time of extreme violence and genocide
and colonial climate collapse? Police have raided
places where I live three times. Angry
magistrates have condemned me and sworn to make an example
of my behaviour so that others will not follow. People
lodged in the system of violent privilege only react
this way, when there is an effect, when there is a
(06:09):
fear of an ongoing effect in which more people are
involved, the climate crisis is
overwhelming. Friends have descended from a
spiritual lineage that thrives in the overwhelming and
stagnates in the comfortable. This is not to say
we seek to be overwhelmed or to do too much.
Simply that when the world at large seems
overwhelming, it can be easy to trust in the light and let it guide
(06:31):
our steps. For far too long, we have not taken
steps on this journey concerning ourselves more
with the ways of the world than with the calling of the light.
The world is a scary and distracting place.
I think the point is that when you try, when you
engage with the problems of our time, colonialism,
violence, state violence, all the big oppressive things which are
(06:52):
causing us harm, you can't lose when you move, even
if you, you know, you might lose your worldly wealth, even if you might lose
your status and your respectability. As we face
climate and colonial crises, we have to
invest our talents in change, otherwise we're going to lose everything.
And the climate crisis and watching the genocide in
Gaza, the war in West Papua, and
(07:14):
you know, what's happening in Sudan, this is all from Western
consumption. Quakers in the West, I feel we're just not
answering that call. Like I've often said we should just go sit in the
driveways of the water lawmakers until they send us to jail. And I get
people who sort of say, well, that won't have an effect. Well, maybe not.
Is faithfulness about effect? Is our values about effect
or is it about our integrity? So I think it's about
literally trying to stick our faith, stick into the
(07:36):
spoke of the will that's crushing us. How we do that, I don't
know, but that's why we're people of faith. And I think it's about building
community in action as we go, rather than what we're doing
now in the west, which is stagnating and trusting
in the middle class ways of paying people off to do things, which
is part of the problem and upholds the problem, in my
opinion, rather than actually does anything about it.
The middle class kind of whiteness has
(07:59):
definitely taken the peace testimony over. Uh, for
those of us in the west, we have this big peace testimony and
friends love to talk about peace, but peace is not the same
as passivity. We think that peace is about being
polite and nice and being quiet in public spaces
and there's a place for that. But what peace is, it's
proactive and it calls us to take action. And take
(08:19):
risk. Uh, I've been to lots of rallies and
protests and blockades where young people do
get angry and they do shout at police and they do these
things. I, uh, don't condemn them. I don't see that as
violent. I actually see that as part of the peace testimony because they're
speaking up for the injustice, for the violence, for
the hurt. Uh, I see the state, and so called the
(08:39):
Australian state as incredibly violent, as
incredibly murderous and vindictive and vicious.
And sometimes friends, at least in, in my
experience, they sort of see both sides as equal. They want to
condemn both sides. And I'm just like, that is not
the reality of ripping babies away from
families, which still happens in record numbers on this continent.
I'm not going to condemn people who turn up fighting for
(09:02):
our future and against injustice. I'm not going to
condemn them. I'm going to say, good job. If you want to do property
damage, like, you're probably just going to go straight to jail and get caught, but if
that's what you want to do, this thing is killing us. Of course
it's okay. And I'm more involved and
interested in supporting people doing that stuff. Even if they
swear or, you know, they don't have the perfect
(09:22):
politics. At least they're trying to be active in the face of
oppression instead of supporting people who are
doing that work or saying, well, we'll come with you and we'll
support you emotionally and maybe we can work together. They
tend to separate or segregate from that. Then just
pay professionals to do the job, and the professionals
are not doing the job. It's going to just keep getting worse.
(09:43):
So I'd say now is the time to take risks rather
than waiting until fascism is fully in hold. And
if that feels too much, just consider the
consequences of our inaction. And there's lots of
ways to disrupt things without necessarily getting arrested.
That's also avenues you can take, but be disruptive.
Slow down the death machine as best you can. That's,
(10:03):
that's what we need to do. And I think that's the spiritual
nexus of Quakerism. Be scared,
but act that can. That can be in all forms, whether you are going
to sit in the driveway and block a, uh, weapons
company. But it also means talking about the privilege
and things, even if you don't fully understand it. I don't fully understand
the violence and privilege and how it affects my lives. Don't
(10:24):
be scared to talk about it or challenge it and trust your guts.
People with respectability and maybe elders
they will subconsciously protect their privilege. Don't be scared about
it. Be scared, but act anyway.
And if you get it wrong. It's better to get it wrong and talk to
your community about accountability than it is to not act
100%. There's no room for polite peace,
(10:44):
only active peace.
The world is a scary and distracting place.
But then there's the light. The light that made Quaker
founder, uh, George Fox walk away from his home life and into the
fields against all common sense. That made many more of
our ancestors walk knowingly into danger,
imprisonment and death to keep the Quaker witness
(11:04):
in the public eye and the truth available to all.
Without those Friends risking their talents, we would have no
society and no teachings to learn from. If people
from our spiritual ancestry had considered the best practical use
of their time, they would have stayed at home and buried their
talents. If we rest in our comfortable lives,
there will be no descendants to pass our spiritual gifts onto.
(11:26):
We only need to move. Sitting this one
out is to bury our talents.
I don't have an answer to all of our problems.
That's why I wrote the article. It's about, what is the light
telling me to do now? You know, and the main
problem, particularly for Quakers and other people of
faith, is that we just kind of get overwhelmed and we go into our
(11:47):
own worlds where it's about retirement and how I can
do activacy stuff that's respectable, that
the wider society will be, oh, I write letters and isn't that nice?
Whereas what the light is calling us to do is to witness and get
in the way of these things. Actually,
we've got to remember L, O, R, E, the old law of how to look after
land and look after each other. That's the call, and that's
(12:07):
what we, as prodigal children of the Creator need to
remember.
>> Jade Rockwell (12:13):
I think one of the things that our meetings and churches
have struggled with is how do
you still hold space for that present
action of the Holy Spirit? That's becoming harder
and harder because our world is moving
at such a fast rate now. It's like we're being
bombarded with all of these conditions.
(12:34):
We need to find practices in our meetings that allow
us to do that. My name is Jade
Rockwell. Pronouns are she, her. I
live in Richmond, Indiana, and
I am one of the pastors at West Elkton
Friends Meeting in West Elkton, Ohio.
Renewal is a perpetual
part of, like, a healthy organization having
(12:57):
healthy processes by which we
evaluate where we're at and
connect to what's going on around us. And
in a in a way that's adaptive and
responsive to our, uh, living reality.
Quakerism itself started as a
revival or renewal process for
(13:17):
Christianity at a time when some
folks were feeling like the, the existing church
wasn't possible to reform
theologically. Our emphasis has shifted in the
21st century more towards we are a people
called to action. We're living in a time when we
can see that inaction is risky. If we're not
able to respond to our world,
(13:40):
bad things can happen. And we
may be morally responsible
if we aren't able to be active. The
difficulties with attracting young people
is the sort of sense that Friends aren't able
to act in a responsive
way to the world. And sometimes people may
(14:00):
say, well, that's the Quaker way. The Quaker way is
slow. But I think if we look at our history, that's not
the only Quaker way. Abolition is something
that we remember
as a time when God moved us in a good
direction. Embodying our
faith in action is also the Quaker way,
(14:20):
and we may need to lean more into that. This
stagnation that we experience is not unique to
Quakers. Right. This is a very human thing. Our
institutions tend to calcify with time.
Sometimes they like, re reactively
shut down creative solutions or
innovations that may actually be the way forward.
But one of the amazing things that institutions
(14:42):
can do is that if
they figure out a way to hold space for that
creativity and, uh, innovation in life to continue,
they can actually live a lot longer than any of us can.
And that could be pretty powerful
and a pretty good way for God to work in our world
over generations.
>> Sweet Miche (15:02):
That was Jade Rockwell from the QuakerSpeak video
transforming Quakerism in Troubling Times.
A, uh, big thank you to Layla Cuthrell for
filming and editing these videos. You can watch
them on YouTube or QuakerSpeak.com
Jade mentioned the Quaker Connect program. It's a
resource for meetings and churches looking to build deeper
(15:24):
involvement in their communities. You can learn more@, uh,
quakerconnect.org
you.
>> Peterson Toscano (15:31):
Also heard Greg Rolles talking about and reading from
his article. We are having, in effect,
the Necessity of Spiritual Resistance
in Climate and Justice Activism.
It appears in the September 2025 issue of
Friends Journal and at friendsjournal.org
my conversation with.
>> Sweet Miche (15:50):
Greg came at the perfect time. I've been
struggling lately with our troubling times.
I'm angry at the current administration for
stripping rights away from immigrants, trans
children and the people in Gaza and
so many others. And even
little things can set off my anger right now. Like
when cars park in the bike lane, and I want
(16:13):
to scream at them.
>> Peterson Toscano (16:15):
Uh, I think a lot of us feel
outrage right now. The Quaker peace testimony
isn't about shutting down the anger, though.
It's about acknowledging it and allowing it
to transform into something else.
In the August 2025 issue of Friends Journal,
Wendy Cooler reviewed Richard Rohr's new
(16:36):
book. It's called the Tears of
Things Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of
Outrage. Rohr starts with those
famously angry Hebrew prophets like
Amos and Jeremiah,
right?
>> Sweet Miche (16:50):
The ones who are always shouting about injustice. And
Rohr points out something that we often miss. Their
anger matures into grief.
Rohr suggests that the prophetic path isn't about
being right, but about empathy.
It's not about standing apart and judging. It's about
suffering with the world.
The book is the Tears of Prophetic
(17:12):
Wisdom, um, for an Age of Outrage. It's
written by Richard Rohr and published by Convergent
Books. You can read more of Wendy Kuller's review
at friendsjournal.org
Peterson, you also have a recommendation for us.
>> Peterson Toscano (17:27):
That's correct. This season, in addition to the book
review we share with you, our listeners, we're going to also
share a non book
recommendation.
So today I have a game for you.
Fate of the Fellowship. It's
a brand new cooperative board game designed
by Matt Laycock. He's the
(17:48):
creator of the very popular and award
winning cooperative game Pandemic. In Fate of the
Fellowship, players step into JRR uh
Tolkien's Middle earth. They guide the
Fellowship while resisting the growing shadow.
It's story, rich, strategic and you
win or lose together. That's what makes
(18:08):
it cooperative. You can find Fate of the
Fellowship at Fantasy flight games on
BoardGameGeek and through most major game
retailers. Thank you for
joining us for this episode of Quakers Today. If
you liked what you heard today and you listened to our show on
Spotify or Apple Podcast or YouTube
videos, please take a moment to rate and review.
(18:32):
Make Sweet Miche and me very happy by sharing uh
Quakers Today with your Friends and on your social
media. Quakers Today is written and
produced by me, Peterson, Toscano and
me Sweet Miche.
>> Sweet Miche (18:45):
Music on UH Today's show comes from Epidemic Sound
Season five of uh.
>> Peterson Toscano (18:49):
Quakers Today is sponsored by Friends
Fiduciary. Friends Fiduciary
combines Quaker values with expert investment
management. They serve more than
460 organizations with
ethical portfolios, shareholder
advocacy, and a deep commitment to
justice and sustainability.
(19:09):
Friends Fiduciary blends Quaker principles
with smart mission driven investing.
With 100% of revenue supporting their
mission and a 100% Quaker board.
They help hundreds of faith based groups invest
ethically and affordably. Learn
more@friends fiduciary.org this
(19:30):
season is also.
>> Sweet Miche (19:31):
Sponsored by American Friends Service Committee.
AFSC works at the forefront of social change to
meet urgent needs, challenge injustice and build
peace. Did you know
AFSC helped thousands of Jewish and non
Jewish refugees during World War II to
resettle in the US today.
(19:52):
AFSC works towards a future where everyone can
thrive, has access to legal status and
is safe from detention and deportation.
Learn how you can take action for immigrant safety,
dignity and well
being@afsc.org
stronger immigrants.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:12):
Visit QuakersToday.org to see our show notes and
a full transcript of this episode
and check out the extended video of
today's episode on the Friends Journal YouTube
page. And if you stick around after the closing,
you're going to hear listeners responses to the question
what is your favorite Quaker term or
phrase? Something common among Friends but odd, uh,
(20:35):
to outsiders.
>> Sweet Miche (20:37):
Thank you Friends for listening. May you have
clarity and courage as you engage with the world.
In a moment you'll hear listeners voicemails about
common phrases among Quakers.
They may be odd to outsiders,
but first we'll share the question for next month.
(20:58):
Quaker gatherings often provide spaces
for the spiritual needs of affinity groups.
This includes spaces for Friends of Color or
Young Adult Friends.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:08):
Mhm. Or the community I've been a part of for years.
It's flgbtqc.
Say that fast.
F L G B T Q C. It stands for Friends for
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender
and Queer Concerns. Okay, so here is the question.
How has being rooted in a small group
(21:31):
changed the way you share your voice in
bigger settings? And it doesn't have to be a Quaker group, just any kind of small
group that it just was supportive that way.
>> Eleanor (21:40):
Hmm.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:40):
Yeah.
>> Sweet Miche (21:41):
And yeah, to respond you can leave a voice
memo with your name and the town where you live.
The number to call is 317-QUAKERS.
That's
317-782-537-7317,
and plus one. If calling from outside the USA,
(22:02):
you can also send us an email which is
podcastriendsjournal.
I have these contact details in our show notes
over@quakerstoday.org
now, uh, we hear.
>> Peterson Toscano (22:14):
Answers to the question what is your favorite Quaker term that
is common among Friends but strange to outsiders?
In social media, Amy Ward Brimmer wrote
way opens or Way
will open obviously.
And we also received the following voicemails.
>> Eleanor (22:33):
My name is Eleanor, I'm calling from Colorado and I'm fairly
New to Quakers and still learning the lingo. But my favorite Quaker
jargon is friend with a capital F. I
struggled with road rage, and before I found Quakerism, something
that really helped me overcome that and have more peaceful
experiences in traffic was a comment from the Internet
that suggested calling people that are cutting you off buddy instead
(22:53):
of cursing them. When I found Quakerism and I learned
about the friend, I felt like that was a framework that I should apply
beyond the road to other areas of my life and to think of all
people as a friend or a buddy. So
thank you, friends. I really enjoy the show and I'm looking forward
to learning more jargon in your next episode. My
dog was whining a little bit there, so, uh,
(23:14):
hopefully that didn't just wreck the entire voicemail. But, uh,
she's very sweet and happy and she just saw a squirrel. Thank
you so much. Have a great day.
>> Ken (23:25):
My name is Ken. I live in southeastern
Pennsylvania. My favorite Quaker term
is there
That of God in everyone.
>> Eleanor (23:37):
Tom Hoban, Rhode Island,
Quaker and Episcopalian. My favorite
Quaker saying is, I will
hold you in the light. I will hold
you in the light. I often use that. Many people say,
I'll pray for you, and some take offense, but I think
that's a beautiful image. Thank you so much. Enjoying your
podcast.
>> Peterson Toscano (23:58):
Thanks to everyone who sent in the voicemails. They're my
favorite. I love the voicemails a lot. Uh,
and you have a chance to do it again with our next
question. Mish, what is our question for next month?
>> Sweet Miche (24:09):
Our question for next month is how has
being rooted in a small group changed the
way you share your voice in bigger settings?
>> Peterson Toscano (24:19):
Yeah, let us know. Find out all the
details@quakerstoday.org.
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