March 18, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode, co-hosts Peterson Toscano (he/him) and Sweet Miche (they/them) explore best practices for welcoming and supporting neurodivergent individuals in Quaker worship and educational settings. Poet and writer Kate Fox shares insights from her article "A Place of Unmasking," drawing connections between early Quakers' spiritual practices and contemporary understandings of neurodiversity. Kate discusses her experience of Quaker meeting as a space where she can authentically be herself, free from the pressures of masking neurodivergent traits.
Kate Fox raises essential questions: How can places of worship and schools better accommodate neurodivergent individuals? How do sensory practices, like stimming, help with spiritual grounding and concentration?
We also explore Julia Watts Belser's book, Loving Our Own Bones, Disability Wisdom, and the Spiritual Subversiveness of Knowing Ourselves Whole, which invites readers to reconsider disability—not as something needing fixing, but as an integral part of human diversity, rich with spiritual wisdom and power. You can read Greg Woods' review in Friends Journal.
Listener Responses: Neurodivergent Voices and Best Practices
We hear directly from listeners who share their experiences and recommendations:
- Clayden, a South African teenage artist and TikTok creator emphasizes the value of dedicated spaces in schools and churches designed for people with sensory sensitivities and learning disabilities. You can follow him @claydendesigns
- Kody Hersh shares about creating a sensory-friendly space at a Quaker gathering, allowing attendees to adjust lighting, use fidgets, and regulate their environment to feel comfortable in worship.
- Another listener highlights how simple tools like printed bulletins can support neurodivergent attendees by providing structure and predictability during worship services.
What belief have you had to unlearn in your spiritual or personal journey?
Share your response by emailing podcast@quakerstoday.org or call/text 317-QUAKERS (317-782-5377). Please include your name and location. Your responses may be featured in our next episode.
Resources
For neurodiverse individuals, here are some useful apps designed to support communication, sensory regulation, social skills, executive functioning, and emotional well-being:
- Communication & AAC (Augmentative and Alternative Communication) Apps
- Proloquo2Go – A symbol-based text-to-speech app for non-speaking individuals. Official Website https://www.assistiveware.com/products/proloquo2go
- CoughDrop – A cloud-based AAC app for customizable communication. Official Website https://www.coughdrop.com/
- Sensory Processing & Regulation Apps
- Sensory App House – A collection of apps designed to support sensory needs. https://www.sensoryapphouse.com/
- Autism 5-Point Scale EP – Helps users understand and regulate sensory and emotional states. https://
- Communication & AAC (Augmentative and Alternative Communication) Apps
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:15):
In this episode of Quakers Today, we ask, what best
practices do you recommend for supporting
neurodivergent people in places of worship
and schools?
>> Sweet Miche (00:24):
You will learn about Loving Our Own
Bones by Julia Watts
Belser. And Kate Fox finds a
connection with the early Quaker emphasis on direct
bodily connection with the spirit and her
neurodivergence.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:39):
I'm Peterson Centiscano.
>> Sweet Miche (00:41):
Um, and I am Sweet Miche. This is
season four, episode four of the Quakers Today
podcast, a project of Friends Publishing
Corporation. This season of Quakers Today is sponsored
by Friends Fiduciary and American Friends
Service Committee.
>> Claydon (01:03):
M.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:13):
Sweet Miche.
>> Sweet Miche (01:15):
I know I've changed my name.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:17):
I love that. Name changes are
huge. Like that's the sign that someone is
the victor. They get to name the towns.
>> Sweet Miche (01:26):
And honestly, Sweet Miche is pretty
tame compared to the names of some early
Quakers. If you saw that
viral 17th century Quaker names
list.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:36):
Oh yeah, like fierce names.
>> Sweet Miche (01:39):
Yeah, uh, exactly. Yeah. There was names like God
blessed or Revolution 6
Smith.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:46):
Yeah. And. And, and although she's not a Quaker, I, uh, think of
Sojourner Truth.
>> Sweet Miche (01:50):
Mm m. Mm. Mhm. Absolutely. And today we
have Quakers Pink Dandelion
and oh, Sweetmeesh.
>> Kate Fox (01:58):
It.
>> Sweet Miche (01:58):
It feels like I'm practically playing it Safe.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:02):
Safe and lovely.
>> Sweet Miche (02:04):
Speaking of someone who changed her name, I, uh,
talked with Kate Fox this month. When Kate was 18,
she changed her name to Fox from Renard, which is
just the French word for fox, a pretty
literal translation. But unfortunately she has
no relation to Old Georgie Fox,
the Quaker founder.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:23):
Yeah, which I guess it would have been then. Georges
Reynald.
Kate is a standup poet from the north
of England. She attends Monk Seton meeting.
Her article, A Place of Unmasking, draws
parallels between early Quakers rejection of
social norms and our concepts of
(02:44):
neurodiversity. Today, Kate raises the
question, how can Quaker meetings explicitly welcome
neurodivergent people?
>> Kate Fox (02:53):
When I performed my poetry shows, I
was doing one called Bigger on the
Inside, which is looking at neurodiversity
through a lens of Doctor who. In the show, I get
my audiences, I say it openly, Please,
stim. Not everyone probably knows what a stim
is. So a stim, it's in the diagnostic
criteria for autism, but actually all
(03:15):
humans stim, that is, do
self stimulating behaviour. It can
be, um, repetitive movements,
humming, gently flicking their finger,
tapping their toe. It helps people
focus and concentrate, but it can
also be calming and regulating.
(03:36):
I invite that. And I love when people can take
your crochet out or doodle, because some people
listen better. Now, how would
that work in the Lovely, lovely,
quiet, still room. That's the
difficulty, isn't it? Ah, one size does not fit
all. In fact, in Quaker
Meeting, do I want to sit next to someone whose
(03:59):
needles are click clacking away? Not
necessarily. To be honest.
>> Sweet Miche (04:05):
Stimming is an interesting way of thinking about
how we center in worship. Much like
cyclical prayers or mantras or
becoming aware of your breath, stimming provides
sensory input that can ground you in your body
and reduce mental distractions.
In her article, Kate describes masking
(04:26):
as camouflaging her autistic traits in order
to fit in. Masking often is
a reaction to how society can treat people who are
different in their sensory, emotional and
cognitive ways of being.
>> Kate Fox (04:40):
I see my Quaker Meeting as a
place of unmasking, somewhere I can
go and be accepted as myself and drop
the usual social norms and requirements.
I love reading about the early
Quakers. It seems like they were going
through their own process of unmasking,
(05:01):
questioning why hat doffing, vow,
swearing and titles were necessary.
They were making a, uh, more direct and
bodily connection with something transpersonal,
rejecting traditional hierarchies and, um, power
structures because they don't make sense.
>> Peterson Toscano (05:20):
Kate describes this powerful feeling of
being able to drop the usual social pressures at
her Quaker Meeting. And it makes me wonder
what was it about the early Quakers that allowed them
to question social norms?
>> Kate Fox (05:35):
I, um, am not diagnosing the early
Quakers as autistic. However,
they were certainly neurodivergent
or neuroqueer in the definition
used by neurodiversity activist and
scholar Nick Walker.
Walker's definition of
neurodiversity recognises it can
(05:56):
be a movement or a paradigm,
not just a descriptor.
Used as a philosophy, it values
differences in the ways that people process
things as a strength, just as
variety is a strength in
biodiversity.
>> Sweet Miche (06:16):
Neuroqueering. It's a bit of a
mouthful. It's also a really
playful idea. We're all
given these rules, these expectations about
how our brains and our relationships should work,
but what if we just ignored them?
What if we explored different, uh, ways of thinking,
(06:36):
feeling and loving?
>> Peterson Toscano (06:39):
Yeah, and it seems to have a
genuine connection to the spirit of early
Quakerism. Kate expands on
that, looking at how this embodied
sensory first experience might have been
at the heart of their spiritual practice.
>> Kate Fox (06:57):
A lot of us, a lot of neurodivergent people,
process from the bottom up, as
in, uh, our main processing, it's sensory
first or it's of energy first.
It actually makes me think, gosh, I bet there's some people
then who are much more top down processors,
who. It will be a lot harder to get those signals.
(07:18):
And maybe they're thinking, oh, uh, I'm doing it wrong. I'll never
get these big internal, kind of
physical, bodily feelings that get talked
about. I said in the article, I'm not
diagnosing the early Quakers as
autistic. But you know what? If we
went back to the world of the early Quakers,
I bet a lot of them, they were
(07:40):
connecting through the fact that they were body
processes and energy processes first. And
in a way the movement, the way
that Quakerism has developed started
from there. And, um, for me,
luckily, words are a
stim. If Quaker meetings
were only about silence, just definitely
(08:02):
silence all the time. I'm, uh, not down for
that. I need some words.
But at the same time, the words, which
we often acknowledge in a Quaker setting
are, uh, really not everything. And they're an
imperfect vehicle and they're a vessel that we're trying
with and sometimes they're all we've got.
It's that beautiful,
(08:24):
complex interplay of silence
and words that is part of what make
meetings for me a really
neurodivergent, affirming space.
Most settings pile on the
words. Oh, here's 4,000 words of
a sermon. Here's
27,000 words from Blue sky.
(08:46):
And suddenly, oh, uh,
the words get to
stand in space.
>> Peterson Toscano (08:55):
As Kate said, one size does not
fit all. Knitting might help one
person's center, but it might completely distract
another. Noise, lack of noise,
a need for movement, a need for stillness. All of these
contradictions can live in our meetings.
>> Kate Fox (09:14):
A, uh, Quaker meeting is the best place
in the world to have these discussions.
That level of connected,
honest, plain, direct
speaking. Often we're required
as the neurodivergent people to ask for what
we need. And sometimes it's
(09:34):
so nice if someone just goes, oh,
uh, is there anything in particular that would make you
feel more comfortable here? Oh,
uh, that's, uh, it, isn't it? That
just that.
>> Sweet Miche (10:03):
That was. Kate Fox, author of the article
A Place of Unmasking Quaker Meetings as
Neurodivergent Affirming Spaces.
It appears in the March 2025 issue of
Friends Journal. Visit
friendsjournal.org.
>> Peterson Toscano (10:28):
Greg woods shared a book recommendation with us.
Loving Our Own Bones by Julia Watts
Belser. Belser, a, uh,
rabbi, professor and disability
theologian, weaves together personal
stories, biblical narratives, and deep reflections
on the ways disability is framed in spiritual
(10:48):
traditions. She asks,
what if we stopped seeing disability as something broken
or in need of fixing and instead embraced it
as an integral part of human experience,
full of wisdom, power and
holiness.
>> Sweet Miche (11:04):
For friends who believe in that of God, in everyone,
this challenges us to consider do we
truly see the divine in disabled bodies?
Are we still caught in cultural narratives that
equate wholeness with able bodiedness?
>> Peterson Toscano (11:20):
Greg's review of this book points to something
Quakers don't always talk about how
ableism shows up in our meetings and communities.
If we want to be truly welcoming, we have to ask
hard questions about who is being left out,
overlooked, or asked to conform.
>> Sweet Miche (11:37):
Loving Our Own Bones isn't just a book.
It's an invitation to rethink,
to listen, and to expand our understanding
of what it means to be whole. It's not only
available as a typical paperback, but also
has been translated into Braille and plain
language. Plain language books are, uh,
(11:57):
for readers who can't process complicated
sentences. The books have the same
ideas as the original text, but use
shorter sentences, simpler words, and organize
our thoughts more clearly. Learn more
about the book and its translations in Greg's full
review in friends journal. Visit
friendsjournal.org
(12:20):
and Peterson, uh, you have some other
recommendations for us?
>> Peterson Toscano (12:25):
Yeah, some potentially useful phone apps
Many neurodiverse individuals use apps
to support communication, sensory
regulation, social skills, executive
functioning, and emotional well being.
Whether it's a communication app like
Proloquo2go or an anxiety management M
tool like Mood Mission, these digital
(12:47):
resources can make daily life more
accessible. To see a complete list
of these recommended apps, visit
quakerstoday.org
(13:14):
thank you for joining us for this episode of Quakers
Today. If you like what you
heard today and you listen on Apple Podcast,
please rate and review our show.
Many thanks to everyone sharing, uh, Quakers Today with
Friends and on social media. Quakers Today
is written and produced by me, Peterson
Toscano and me, Sweetmeesh.
>> Sweet Miche (13:37):
Music M on today's episode comes from
Epidemic Sound.
>> Peterson Toscano (13:42):
In this episode we made choices to help
listeners who are neurodiverse.
We used plain language, one simple
piece of music, and kept pauses
consistent. We want to know what you
think. Would you like a plain podcast
version of future episodes? These, uh,
episodes would have less music and fewer sounds than
(14:04):
our regular episodes. Email
us
podcastquakerstoday.org
that's
podcastquakerstoday.org
Season 4 of Quakers Today is sponsored by
American Friends Service Committee.
Vulnerable communities in the planet are counting on
Quakers to take action for a more just,
(14:26):
sustainable and peaceful world. The
American Friends Service Committee, or afsc,
works at the forefront of many social change
movements to meet urgent
humanitarian needs, challenge injustice,
and build peace. Find out
how you can get involved in their programs to
protect migrant communities, establish an
(14:48):
enduring peace in Palestine,
demilitarize police forces around the world,
assert the right to food for all, and
more. Visit
afsc.org that's
afsc.org
this season is.
>> Sweet Miche (15:05):
Also brought to you by friends Fiduciary.
Since 1898, friends Fiduciary has
provided values aligned investment services for
fellow Quaker organizations. Friends
Fiduciary consistently achieves strong, uh, financial
returns while witnessing to Quaker
testimonies. They also help
individuals support organizations they hold dear
(15:28):
through giving strategies including donor advised
funds, charitable gift annuities and stock
gifts. Learn about
FFC's
services@friendsfiduciary.org
Visit Quakers today.
>> Peterson Toscano (15:42):
To see our show notes and a, uh, full transcript of this
episode. And if you stick around after the closing you
will hear listeners responses to the question
what best practices do you recommend for
supporting neurodivergent people in places of
worship or schools?
>> Sweet Miche (16:00):
Thank you friend for listening.
>> Peterson Toscano (16:12):
In a moment you will hear listeners voicemails about
best practices for supporting neurodivergent
people.
>> Sweet Miche (16:19):
But first I'll share next month's question.
Here's the question in your spiritual
or personal journey, what is a belief you've
had to unlearn?
>> Peterson Toscano (16:30):
I could do a whole podcast about that
and we spoke with someone who knows about this. He wrote
a whole book about it. We speak with
Quaker author Philip Gulley about
unlearning.
>> Sweet Miche (16:45):
To answer this question, leave a voice memo with your
name and your town. The number to call
or text is 317quakers.
That's
317-782-537-7317
quakers plus one. If calling
from outside the USA you can also send
(17:07):
us an email. I have these contact details in our show
notes over@quakerstoday.org
the question again is in your
spiritual or uh, personal journey, what is a
belief you've had to unlearn?
>> Peterson Toscano (17:22):
Now we hear answers to the question what
best practices do you recommend for supporting
neurodivergent people in places of worship or
schools? Shirley from
Ireland wrote for schools,
communication and training.
Autistic kids are all different and have different
needs, so individual plans should be worked out with
(17:45):
individual families and
then consistency.
We also received some voicemails, including
one from a TikTok content creator
who goes by the uh handle
Laydens Designs.
Claydon is a teenager in South Africa who
creates videos about his experiences navigating
(18:07):
the world with autism. Claydon
is spelled C L A Y
B.
>> Claydon (18:15):
Hello, my name is Clayton and I'm a 17 year
old autistic artist. And my journey began when I
was 12 years old. Back in 2020, the
biggest problem I faced with being in school was
I needed structure. For most
autistic kids, when they do not have that structure, they get a lot of
anxiety, and I did back then. But
(18:36):
I had a lot of time to just draw and do the thing I
enjoyed, and that was art. Slowly,
over time, I started developing my craft, getting better and
better at drawing. And through
the years, I've been interviewed by many
people, spoke about autism.
And the one thing that I have been trying to get
(18:56):
better at is really talking about autism
and sharing the word with as many people as I
can. Because autism is
a major part of this world. And I do believe
it will be the best thing to really talk
about it and really spread the word of
autism and change the world for the better to
adapt with autistic people. The
(19:19):
first question is, what should schools do for
the autistic community? Well, the
first thing I think will be the best, it is
somewhat being implemented in other countries.
The best thing that schools can do for autistic
people is have classrooms meant for people
with learning disabilities. One of the
(19:40):
learning disabilities I have is the inability to read
and write. Of course this has affected
me in my schooling. I
can't read and write whatsoever, but I have found better ways to
deal with it. But I do think that having
classrooms meant for kids with, um,
neurodisabilities can be a very huge
help. The second
(20:03):
question is how can
churches adjust for the autistic
community? Well, the same thing with
schools. Having a room for kids
with, um, learning disabilities
can be really good. Because I've seen with
many kids the biggest problem that they do face is
sensory issues. It's where the
(20:25):
world is a little bit too overwhelming for the autistic
kid. Sounds, touch,
smell, that can all really affect autistic kid and give them a lot of
anxiety and sometimes gives them a panic attack.
And that's why, um, many people have made
sensory rooms for autistic kids and kids
with learning disabilities. This can
(20:46):
be very beneficial for people of autism.
When I went to a church, it was like a building by the
side that was meant for kids. But it also
worked for me because the second
thing all kids need, autistic or not,
is to have fun. If
you teach, uh, the Bible verses and
(21:06):
talk about the Bible, teaching the kids and having
fun with them and, you know, really involving
them with learning can actually do
a lot for a kid. Because if a kid's not Having fun. They'll have a really
hard time learning. Doing this can be
the best for any autistic or non autistic
kid. I love the
(21:26):
autistic community because I'm a part of it. And I
really want, you know, there to be jobs for autistic
people. I want to be in the creative
industry. I want to show my art to everyone I can.
Thank you for letting me rant a little bit about
autism. Yeah. And thank you
for allowing me to film this.
>> Kody Hersh (21:48):
Hi, friends, this is Cody Hirsch calling from Albuquerque,
New Mexico. He, uh, they pronoun.
I work on young adult and youth ministries for Friends General
Conference. And one of the things that we've done
to try to make our large in person event more
neurodiversity friendly is to add a sensory
refuge room. It's open 24
(22:09):
hours. It allows users to adjust
lighting, put on headphones, play white noise,
choose textures that feel good, play with fidgets,
or wear something weighted. When I got
an ADHD diagnosis in my mid-30s,
it helped me realize that I could give myself accommodations
for worship. Sometimes I bring a
(22:29):
stone to turn over in my hands or sit on the
floor. I've really enjoyed Quaker
worship spaces that offer art supplies or books
or queries for devotional reading.
So from my personal experience, the most important thing we
can do is just to relax about what other people do in
worship. It's important to make sure new
attenders know it's okay if they end up being a little bit late
(22:52):
to meeting or need to bring something to do with their hands or
move around a little. Having art or
journaling supplies available is a great way to communicate
welcome both to neurodivergent folks and to families
with kids. I think that being flexible
and tender with one another and not judging what
people do that doesn't harm you makes such a big
difference.
>> Nova (23:15):
Hi, this is calling
Brooklyn Monthly Meeting.
What best practices do you recommend for supporting
neurodivergent people in places of worship
or schools? It's one that I think about
a lot, and maybe I'm dating myself with this, but
I do remember growing up a 90s
(23:36):
kid and having a program or a
bulletin at, uh, every service.
And it really helped me stay focused
and it also helped me know what was coming and what
had already been and even gave me some
guidelines for behavior because it
had directions in it like,
this is when we stand, this is when we sit, this is when we
(23:59):
kneel. There's something to
a printed or virtual bulletin that
really is supportive to, uh,
neurodivergence thanks for the
question.
>> Sweet Miche (24:13):
Thanks to everyone who answered the monthly
question.
>> Peterson Toscano (24:17):
Thank you and think about our next question and maybe
even share it with your friends in your
spiritual or personal journey. What is a belief
you had to unlearn?
>> Sweet Miche (24:28):
We would love to hear from you. See
you next month.
In this episode of Quakers Today, we ask, what best
practices do you recommend for supporting
neurodivergent people in places of worship
and schools?
>> Sweet Miche (00:24):
You will learn about Loving Our Own
Bones by Julia Watts
Belser. And Kate Fox finds a
connection with the early Quaker emphasis on direct
bodily connection with the spirit and her
neurodivergence.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:39):
I'm Peterson Centiscano.
>> Sweet Miche (00:41):
Um, and I am Sweet Miche. This is
season four, episode four of the Quakers Today
podcast, a project of Friends Publishing
Corporation. This season of Quakers Today is sponsored
by Friends Fiduciary and American Friends
Service Committee.
>> Claydon (01:03):
M.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:13):
Sweet Miche.
>> Sweet Miche (01:15):
I know I've changed my name.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:17):
I love that. Name changes are
huge. Like that's the sign that someone is
the victor. They get to name the towns.
>> Sweet Miche (01:26):
And honestly, Sweet Miche is pretty
tame compared to the names of some early
Quakers. If you saw that
viral 17th century Quaker names
list.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:36):
Oh yeah, like fierce names.
>> Sweet Miche (01:39):
Yeah, uh, exactly. Yeah. There was names like God
blessed or Revolution 6
Smith.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:46):
Yeah. And. And, and although she's not a Quaker, I, uh, think of
Sojourner Truth.
>> Sweet Miche (01:50):
Mm m. Mm. Mhm. Absolutely. And today we
have Quakers Pink Dandelion
and oh, Sweetmeesh.
>> Kate Fox (01:58):
It.
>> Sweet Miche (01:58):
It feels like I'm practically playing it Safe.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:02):
Safe and lovely.
>> Sweet Miche (02:04):
Speaking of someone who changed her name, I, uh,
talked with Kate Fox this month. When Kate was 18,
she changed her name to Fox from Renard, which is
just the French word for fox, a pretty
literal translation. But unfortunately she has
no relation to Old Georgie Fox,
the Quaker founder.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:23):
Yeah, which I guess it would have been then. Georges
Reynald.
Kate is a standup poet from the north
of England. She attends Monk Seton meeting.
Her article, A Place of Unmasking, draws
parallels between early Quakers rejection of
social norms and our concepts of
(02:44):
neurodiversity. Today, Kate raises the
question, how can Quaker meetings explicitly welcome
neurodivergent people?
>> Kate Fox (02:53):
When I performed my poetry shows, I
was doing one called Bigger on the
Inside, which is looking at neurodiversity
through a lens of Doctor who. In the show, I get
my audiences, I say it openly, Please,
stim. Not everyone probably knows what a stim
is. So a stim, it's in the diagnostic
criteria for autism, but actually all
(03:15):
humans stim, that is, do
self stimulating behaviour. It can
be, um, repetitive movements,
humming, gently flicking their finger,
tapping their toe. It helps people
focus and concentrate, but it can
also be calming and regulating.
(03:36):
I invite that. And I love when people can take
your crochet out or doodle, because some people
listen better. Now, how would
that work in the Lovely, lovely,
quiet, still room. That's the
difficulty, isn't it? Ah, one size does not fit
all. In fact, in Quaker
Meeting, do I want to sit next to someone whose
(03:59):
needles are click clacking away? Not
necessarily. To be honest.
>> Sweet Miche (04:05):
Stimming is an interesting way of thinking about
how we center in worship. Much like
cyclical prayers or mantras or
becoming aware of your breath, stimming provides
sensory input that can ground you in your body
and reduce mental distractions.
In her article, Kate describes masking
(04:26):
as camouflaging her autistic traits in order
to fit in. Masking often is
a reaction to how society can treat people who are
different in their sensory, emotional and
cognitive ways of being.
>> Kate Fox (04:40):
I see my Quaker Meeting as a
place of unmasking, somewhere I can
go and be accepted as myself and drop
the usual social norms and requirements.
I love reading about the early
Quakers. It seems like they were going
through their own process of unmasking,
(05:01):
questioning why hat doffing, vow,
swearing and titles were necessary.
They were making a, uh, more direct and
bodily connection with something transpersonal,
rejecting traditional hierarchies and, um, power
structures because they don't make sense.
>> Peterson Toscano (05:20):
Kate describes this powerful feeling of
being able to drop the usual social pressures at
her Quaker Meeting. And it makes me wonder
what was it about the early Quakers that allowed them
to question social norms?
>> Kate Fox (05:35):
I, um, am not diagnosing the early
Quakers as autistic. However,
they were certainly neurodivergent
or neuroqueer in the definition
used by neurodiversity activist and
scholar Nick Walker.
Walker's definition of
neurodiversity recognises it can
(05:56):
be a movement or a paradigm,
not just a descriptor.
Used as a philosophy, it values
differences in the ways that people process
things as a strength, just as
variety is a strength in
biodiversity.
>> Sweet Miche (06:16):
Neuroqueering. It's a bit of a
mouthful. It's also a really
playful idea. We're all
given these rules, these expectations about
how our brains and our relationships should work,
but what if we just ignored them?
What if we explored different, uh, ways of thinking,
(06:36):
feeling and loving?
>> Peterson Toscano (06:39):
Yeah, and it seems to have a
genuine connection to the spirit of early
Quakerism. Kate expands on
that, looking at how this embodied
sensory first experience might have been
at the heart of their spiritual practice.
>> Kate Fox (06:57):
A lot of us, a lot of neurodivergent people,
process from the bottom up, as
in, uh, our main processing, it's sensory
first or it's of energy first.
It actually makes me think, gosh, I bet there's some people
then who are much more top down processors,
who. It will be a lot harder to get those signals.
(07:18):
And maybe they're thinking, oh, uh, I'm doing it wrong. I'll never
get these big internal, kind of
physical, bodily feelings that get talked
about. I said in the article, I'm not
diagnosing the early Quakers as
autistic. But you know what? If we
went back to the world of the early Quakers,
I bet a lot of them, they were
(07:40):
connecting through the fact that they were body
processes and energy processes first. And
in a way the movement, the way
that Quakerism has developed started
from there. And, um, for me,
luckily, words are a
stim. If Quaker meetings
were only about silence, just definitely
(08:02):
silence all the time. I'm, uh, not down for
that. I need some words.
But at the same time, the words, which
we often acknowledge in a Quaker setting
are, uh, really not everything. And they're an
imperfect vehicle and they're a vessel that we're trying
with and sometimes they're all we've got.
It's that beautiful,
(08:24):
complex interplay of silence
and words that is part of what make
meetings for me a really
neurodivergent, affirming space.
Most settings pile on the
words. Oh, here's 4,000 words of
a sermon. Here's
27,000 words from Blue sky.
(08:46):
And suddenly, oh, uh,
the words get to
stand in space.
>> Peterson Toscano (08:55):
As Kate said, one size does not
fit all. Knitting might help one
person's center, but it might completely distract
another. Noise, lack of noise,
a need for movement, a need for stillness. All of these
contradictions can live in our meetings.
>> Kate Fox (09:14):
A, uh, Quaker meeting is the best place
in the world to have these discussions.
That level of connected,
honest, plain, direct
speaking. Often we're required
as the neurodivergent people to ask for what
we need. And sometimes it's
(09:34):
so nice if someone just goes, oh,
uh, is there anything in particular that would make you
feel more comfortable here? Oh,
uh, that's, uh, it, isn't it? That
just that.
>> Sweet Miche (10:03):
That was. Kate Fox, author of the article
A Place of Unmasking Quaker Meetings as
Neurodivergent Affirming Spaces.
It appears in the March 2025 issue of
Friends Journal. Visit
friendsjournal.org.
>> Peterson Toscano (10:28):
Greg woods shared a book recommendation with us.
Loving Our Own Bones by Julia Watts
Belser. Belser, a, uh,
rabbi, professor and disability
theologian, weaves together personal
stories, biblical narratives, and deep reflections
on the ways disability is framed in spiritual
(10:48):
traditions. She asks,
what if we stopped seeing disability as something broken
or in need of fixing and instead embraced it
as an integral part of human experience,
full of wisdom, power and
holiness.
>> Sweet Miche (11:04):
For friends who believe in that of God, in everyone,
this challenges us to consider do we
truly see the divine in disabled bodies?
Are we still caught in cultural narratives that
equate wholeness with able bodiedness?
>> Peterson Toscano (11:20):
Greg's review of this book points to something
Quakers don't always talk about how
ableism shows up in our meetings and communities.
If we want to be truly welcoming, we have to ask
hard questions about who is being left out,
overlooked, or asked to conform.
>> Sweet Miche (11:37):
Loving Our Own Bones isn't just a book.
It's an invitation to rethink,
to listen, and to expand our understanding
of what it means to be whole. It's not only
available as a typical paperback, but also
has been translated into Braille and plain
language. Plain language books are, uh,
(11:57):
for readers who can't process complicated
sentences. The books have the same
ideas as the original text, but use
shorter sentences, simpler words, and organize
our thoughts more clearly. Learn more
about the book and its translations in Greg's full
review in friends journal. Visit
friendsjournal.org
(12:20):
and Peterson, uh, you have some other
recommendations for us?
>> Peterson Toscano (12:25):
Yeah, some potentially useful phone apps
Many neurodiverse individuals use apps
to support communication, sensory
regulation, social skills, executive
functioning, and emotional well being.
Whether it's a communication app like
Proloquo2go or an anxiety management M
tool like Mood Mission, these digital
(12:47):
resources can make daily life more
accessible. To see a complete list
of these recommended apps, visit
quakerstoday.org
(13:14):
thank you for joining us for this episode of Quakers
Today. If you like what you
heard today and you listen on Apple Podcast,
please rate and review our show.
Many thanks to everyone sharing, uh, Quakers Today with
Friends and on social media. Quakers Today
is written and produced by me, Peterson
Toscano and me, Sweetmeesh.
>> Sweet Miche (13:37):
Music M on today's episode comes from
Epidemic Sound.
>> Peterson Toscano (13:42):
In this episode we made choices to help
listeners who are neurodiverse.
We used plain language, one simple
piece of music, and kept pauses
consistent. We want to know what you
think. Would you like a plain podcast
version of future episodes? These, uh,
episodes would have less music and fewer sounds than
(14:04):
our regular episodes. Email
us
podcastquakerstoday.org
that's
podcastquakerstoday.org
Season 4 of Quakers Today is sponsored by
American Friends Service Committee.
Vulnerable communities in the planet are counting on
Quakers to take action for a more just,
(14:26):
sustainable and peaceful world. The
American Friends Service Committee, or afsc,
works at the forefront of many social change
movements to meet urgent
humanitarian needs, challenge injustice,
and build peace. Find out
how you can get involved in their programs to
protect migrant communities, establish an
(14:48):
enduring peace in Palestine,
demilitarize police forces around the world,
assert the right to food for all, and
more. Visit
afsc.org that's
afsc.org
this season is.
>> Sweet Miche (15:05):
Also brought to you by friends Fiduciary.
Since 1898, friends Fiduciary has
provided values aligned investment services for
fellow Quaker organizations. Friends
Fiduciary consistently achieves strong, uh, financial
returns while witnessing to Quaker
testimonies. They also help
individuals support organizations they hold dear
(15:28):
through giving strategies including donor advised
funds, charitable gift annuities and stock
gifts. Learn about
FFC's
services@friendsfiduciary.org
Visit Quakers today.
>> Peterson Toscano (15:42):
To see our show notes and a, uh, full transcript of this
episode. And if you stick around after the closing you
will hear listeners responses to the question
what best practices do you recommend for
supporting neurodivergent people in places of
worship or schools?
>> Sweet Miche (16:00):
Thank you friend for listening.
>> Peterson Toscano (16:12):
In a moment you will hear listeners voicemails about
best practices for supporting neurodivergent
people.
>> Sweet Miche (16:19):
But first I'll share next month's question.
Here's the question in your spiritual
or personal journey, what is a belief you've
had to unlearn?
>> Peterson Toscano (16:30):
I could do a whole podcast about that
and we spoke with someone who knows about this. He wrote
a whole book about it. We speak with
Quaker author Philip Gulley about
unlearning.
>> Sweet Miche (16:45):
To answer this question, leave a voice memo with your
name and your town. The number to call
or text is 317quakers.
That's
317-782-537-7317
quakers plus one. If calling
from outside the USA you can also send
(17:07):
us an email. I have these contact details in our show
notes over@quakerstoday.org
the question again is in your
spiritual or uh, personal journey, what is a
belief you've had to unlearn?
>> Peterson Toscano (17:22):
Now we hear answers to the question what
best practices do you recommend for supporting
neurodivergent people in places of worship or
schools? Shirley from
Ireland wrote for schools,
communication and training.
Autistic kids are all different and have different
needs, so individual plans should be worked out with
(17:45):
individual families and
then consistency.
We also received some voicemails, including
one from a TikTok content creator
who goes by the uh handle
Laydens Designs.
Claydon is a teenager in South Africa who
creates videos about his experiences navigating
(18:07):
the world with autism. Claydon
is spelled C L A Y
B.
>> Claydon (18:15):
Hello, my name is Clayton and I'm a 17 year
old autistic artist. And my journey began when I
was 12 years old. Back in 2020, the
biggest problem I faced with being in school was
I needed structure. For most
autistic kids, when they do not have that structure, they get a lot of
anxiety, and I did back then. But
(18:36):
I had a lot of time to just draw and do the thing I
enjoyed, and that was art. Slowly,
over time, I started developing my craft, getting better and
better at drawing. And through
the years, I've been interviewed by many
people, spoke about autism.
And the one thing that I have been trying to get
(18:56):
better at is really talking about autism
and sharing the word with as many people as I
can. Because autism is
a major part of this world. And I do believe
it will be the best thing to really talk
about it and really spread the word of
autism and change the world for the better to
adapt with autistic people. The
(19:19):
first question is, what should schools do for
the autistic community? Well, the
first thing I think will be the best, it is
somewhat being implemented in other countries.
The best thing that schools can do for autistic
people is have classrooms meant for people
with learning disabilities. One of the
(19:40):
learning disabilities I have is the inability to read
and write. Of course this has affected
me in my schooling. I
can't read and write whatsoever, but I have found better ways to
deal with it. But I do think that having
classrooms meant for kids with, um,
neurodisabilities can be a very huge
help. The second
(20:03):
question is how can
churches adjust for the autistic
community? Well, the same thing with
schools. Having a room for kids
with, um, learning disabilities
can be really good. Because I've seen with
many kids the biggest problem that they do face is
sensory issues. It's where the
(20:25):
world is a little bit too overwhelming for the autistic
kid. Sounds, touch,
smell, that can all really affect autistic kid and give them a lot of
anxiety and sometimes gives them a panic attack.
And that's why, um, many people have made
sensory rooms for autistic kids and kids
with learning disabilities. This can
(20:46):
be very beneficial for people of autism.
When I went to a church, it was like a building by the
side that was meant for kids. But it also
worked for me because the second
thing all kids need, autistic or not,
is to have fun. If
you teach, uh, the Bible verses and
(21:06):
talk about the Bible, teaching the kids and having
fun with them and, you know, really involving
them with learning can actually do
a lot for a kid. Because if a kid's not Having fun. They'll have a really
hard time learning. Doing this can be
the best for any autistic or non autistic
kid. I love the
(21:26):
autistic community because I'm a part of it. And I
really want, you know, there to be jobs for autistic
people. I want to be in the creative
industry. I want to show my art to everyone I can.
Thank you for letting me rant a little bit about
autism. Yeah. And thank you
for allowing me to film this.
>> Kody Hersh (21:48):
Hi, friends, this is Cody Hirsch calling from Albuquerque,
New Mexico. He, uh, they pronoun.
I work on young adult and youth ministries for Friends General
Conference. And one of the things that we've done
to try to make our large in person event more
neurodiversity friendly is to add a sensory
refuge room. It's open 24
(22:09):
hours. It allows users to adjust
lighting, put on headphones, play white noise,
choose textures that feel good, play with fidgets,
or wear something weighted. When I got
an ADHD diagnosis in my mid-30s,
it helped me realize that I could give myself accommodations
for worship. Sometimes I bring a
(22:29):
stone to turn over in my hands or sit on the
floor. I've really enjoyed Quaker
worship spaces that offer art supplies or books
or queries for devotional reading.
So from my personal experience, the most important thing we
can do is just to relax about what other people do in
worship. It's important to make sure new
attenders know it's okay if they end up being a little bit late
(22:52):
to meeting or need to bring something to do with their hands or
move around a little. Having art or
journaling supplies available is a great way to communicate
welcome both to neurodivergent folks and to families
with kids. I think that being flexible
and tender with one another and not judging what
people do that doesn't harm you makes such a big
difference.
>> Nova (23:15):
Hi, this is calling
Brooklyn Monthly Meeting.
What best practices do you recommend for supporting
neurodivergent people in places of worship
or schools? It's one that I think about
a lot, and maybe I'm dating myself with this, but
I do remember growing up a 90s
(23:36):
kid and having a program or a
bulletin at, uh, every service.
And it really helped me stay focused
and it also helped me know what was coming and what
had already been and even gave me some
guidelines for behavior because it
had directions in it like,
this is when we stand, this is when we sit, this is when we
(23:59):
kneel. There's something to
a printed or virtual bulletin that
really is supportive to, uh,
neurodivergence thanks for the
question.
>> Sweet Miche (24:13):
Thanks to everyone who answered the monthly
question.
>> Peterson Toscano (24:17):
Thank you and think about our next question and maybe
even share it with your friends in your
spiritual or personal journey. What is a belief
you had to unlearn?
>> Sweet Miche (24:28):
We would love to hear from you. See
you next month.
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