April 15, 2025 • 28 mins
Philip Gulley, Peterson, and Sweet Miche share their personal journeys of unlearning traditional theological concepts and reflect on what makes Quakerism a meaningful path to a more authentic faith. Gulley highlights fear as a significant motivator for religious beliefs and a tool for control and how the current political moment is a masterfully evil manipulation of human fears. Gulley also offers his perspective on the continued usefulness of organized religion, emphasizing the importance of bringing people together, respecting personal autonomy, and aligning its social efforts with the ethos of Jesus and radical love.
Philip Gulley is a Quaker pastor, writer, and speaker from Danville, Indiana. Gulley has written 22 books, including the Harmony series recounting life in the eccentric Quaker community of Harmony, Indiana, and the best-selling Porch Talk essay series.
Gulley’s memoir, I Love You, Miss Huddleston: And Other Inappropriate Longings of My Indiana Childhood, was a finalist for the Thurber Prize for American Hor. In addition, Gulley, with co-author James Mulholland, shared their progressive spirituality in the books If Grace Is True and If God Is Love, followed by Gulley’s books If the Church Were Christian and The Evolution of Faith. In Living the Quaker Way: Timeless Wisdom For a Better Life Today, Gulley offers the opportunity to participate in a world where the values of the Quaker way bring equity, peace, healing, and hope. In his most recently published non-fiction work, Unlearning God: How Unbelieving Helped Me Believe, Gulley describes the process of spiritual growth, especially the re-interpretation of the earliest principles we learned about God.
ResourcesHere are some resources for friends in the process of unlearning and seeking spiritual growth:
- Therapy
- Therapy and spiritual growth can be deeply complementary. While therapy doesn't typically provide spiritual direction, it creates fertile ground for unlearning and spiritual development. You can use online therapist directories to find a therapist by location, insurance, specialty, cost, and more at Psychology Today, TherapyDen, or Open Path Psychotherapy Collective.
- Poets and Authors
- Audre Lorde is a profoundly influential Black lesbian feminist writer, poet, theorist, and civil rights activist. Her work powerfully explores the intersections of race, class, gender, sexuality, and ability. You can read her essays in Sister Outsider and her "biomythography" Zami: A New Spelling of My Name.
- Federico Garcia Lorca is one of Spain's most important p
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Sweet Miche (00:02):
In this episode of Quakers Today, uh, we ask, what
is something you had to unlearn?
>> Peterson Toscano (00:07):
Philip Gulley, a Quaker pastor, writer
and speaker from Danville, Indiana, joins us
to talk about his journey of unlearning. He is
the author of Unlearning How Unbelieving
Helped me Believe.
>> Sweet Miche (00:20):
And we share resources that have helped us in our
process of questioning what we believe.
I'm Peterson Cintiscano and I am
Sweetmeesh. This is season four, episode
five of the Quakers Today podcast, a project
of Friends Publishing Corporation. This season
of Quakers Today is sponsored by American Friends
Service Committee and Friends Fiduciary.
>> Philip Gulley (00:43):
I just like the kind of people that Quaker
meetings attract.
>> Sweet Miche (00:49):
That's Philip Gulley. Peterson and I
recently had a long conversation with him.
>> Philip Gulley (00:55):
And the funny thing is, the
evangelical Quaker meetings I've gone to, the Bible
thumping Quaker meetings, and the most
unprogrammed progressive Quaker
meetings attract the same
kind of people.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:12):
But we didn't reach out, uh, to Philip to talk about
Quakerism. We were curious about
his own long and winding spiritual
journey.
>> Sweet Miche (01:21):
He wrote about it in his book Unlearning.
How Unbelieving helped me believe.
Peterson, in our conversation with Philip, what
stood out to you?
>> Peterson Toscano (01:32):
Fear came up a lot in this conversation. And fear has a profound
impact on our bodies, including our minds.
Uh, when we experience fear,
neural pathways narrow, making it difficult
to recall what we know. It hinders critical
thinking and definitely interferes with
rational decision making. Philip, in
talking about his own journey from Catholicism to
(01:54):
evangelicalism to universalism,
he explained how some of us initially
turn to God to alleviate our fears.
>> Philip Gulley (02:03):
One of the first things we learn that God loves
us, that God's in control. It is a product
of our deepest need, which is to,
uh, live life without being crippled
by fear or a sense of hopelessness.
And so we posit all these powers into a
divine being so that we don't have to, uh,
go through life worrying that no one's in control
(02:26):
and that this will somehow end up okay.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:30):
As a teen, I attended a church where the
leaders routinely warned us about
how we could be led astray from the faith. They
would say, be sober, uh, be
vigilant, because your adversary, the devil as
a roaring lion, walketh about
seeking whom he may devour. Uh,
(02:50):
I have no idea why he did it with that accent, but
it was the King James. I do remember that.
According to Philip, using fear to
control behavior is nothing new. It
goes back to the beginning, like the book of
Genesis and the Garden of Eden. God
gave them a vast garden of fresh Produce,
(03:11):
but warned them they must not eat
of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
>> Philip Gulley (03:17):
We know now that four different
authors wrote the first
five books of the Bible. Some of those
sources were very poetic,
exploratory, had all kinds of
questions, and just wrote very
movingly. Others of them were
priestly and, um, really
(03:37):
liked nailing things down.
And I suspect the person who came up with
that story, with somebody who
worshiped every day at the altar of
fear, this is the problem. And, uh, here's where
that will get you. It will get you thrown out of the
garden, subject to work, and be miserable.
And it's just such a depressing
(03:59):
story.
>> Peterson Toscano (04:00):
Yeah, it's depressing indeed. For centuries,
religious leaders have served as spiritual
overlords, keeping folks like me on a straight
and narrow path. Frankly,
I liked it that way, which I know sounds weird,
but it was easier to outsource the work of
figuring out God's will for my life than to do it
myself. How? Unlike the early
(04:22):
Quakers, these Friends dared to
turn their noses up at church authorities and the
educated clergy class.
Instead, they looked directly to God for
guidance. They questioned,
liberated themselves from church teachings and
sought to live lives led by the Spirit.
(04:42):
Centuries later, here in the United States, we are
witnessing the overreach of religious leaders
again, which, according to Philip, has
political consequences.
>> Philip Gulley (04:53):
Well, it's clear that fear is
probably the driving motivation in
our culture. I think that's especially
obvious now with the rise of,
uh, Donald Trump and his supporters,
which in a way
was a masterfully
(05:13):
evil manipulation
of human fears. It
identified and targeted the Other,
painted a dystopian,
uh, worldview of what might
happen if we didn't fix this
and get rid of these people. The
(05:34):
other. And I think the reason
82% of American evangelicals voted
for him is that is the language
they understand.
They have been steeped in a culture
of fear, in
judgment. And
(05:56):
so when he talks, he's speaking their
language.
>> Peterson Toscano (06:08):
In my earlier years, I submitted myself to
evangelical and Pentecostal ministers who spoke
incessantly about love.
But they also preached fear. Fear of
secular humanism, New Age teaching,
environmentalism, socialism, and gangs of
homosexual men out to convert and recruit our
(06:29):
children. These fears kept us
in the pew. They fired us up to support
politicians promoting Christian nationalism.
The fear instilled in us led to actions that
aligned perfectly with a political movement.
Having to unlearn this type of fear himself. What
does Philip say to the people caught up in the current
(06:49):
political movement, steeped in fear?
>> Philip Gulley (06:52):
I encourage as many of them as I meet and
encounter to get therapy
because I believe it's indicative of a mental
neurosis that needs to be
healed. The thing is,
on one level, it works for them
emotionally. They find it emotionally
satisfying. And when you find your life
(07:13):
emotionally satisfying, you're not inclined to
get therapy. You're not
inclined to reflect and to
ask, are these beliefs really
helpful? Are they helping
me become a, uh, more loving
and gracious and wise person?
(07:33):
You don't ask those questions because you don't
feel that existential
vacancy that others might feel
if they were of that same
mindset.
>> Peterson Toscano (07:46):
For Philip, unlearning means
fearlessly examining our faith
and what we have chosen to believe.
>> Sweet Miche (07:55):
Unlike you, Peterson, I didn't experience
an evangelical tradition. I was raised
in a mainstream denomination, the United
Methodist Church. Frankly, it
wasn't scary, but it also wasn't
terribly inspiring either.
I turned away from Christianity as a teen,
uh, because I didn't see my fellow congregants
(08:18):
living Jesus's teachings.
They're more interested in, uh, upholding social
hierarchies, judging others, and
focusing on rules rather than
relationship. But
even after leaving, unlearning wasn't easy.
All of us have deeply ingrained ideas about
right and wrong. But dismantling these
(08:40):
frameworks of religious dogma can feel like
unsettling the very ground beneath our
feet. To question
and potentially release these long
held ideas requires courage.
But it's also the first step towards a more loving
way of being.
>> Philip Gulley (08:58):
I, uh, look at every belief and ask this question. Is it
moving me forward or is it holding me back?
And by moving forward, I mean is it
helping me grow? Is it making me a more
loving person? Then I retain it.
And I don't care who taught it to me. It doesn't matter if I
learned that from a Catholic nun at the age of
(09:19):
six. If it still works, I'm going to
keep it. If it makes me a
smaller person, if it makes me love
less, if it diminishes
others, then I feel very
comfortable jettisoning it and letting it
go and, uh, saying I'm not going to let that
belief inform my life any longer. I think we need to
(09:41):
do this not only with religion, but I think we need to do
it with nationalism, with what we were
taught about America and the beliefs that we
retain and, uh, the beliefs that we really
ought to let go of.
>> Sweet Miche (09:55):
As Philip said earlier, one of the first
things we learn is that God loves us, that
God is in control. As a child, I
learned literally that God is my heavenly
father. To move beyond that, to Grow
up, in a way, was to shift my whole understanding
of the Bible and its teachings. Unlearning the
Protestant God was a process of questioning
(10:17):
those foundational images.
For me, I realized I love the Jesus who
washed the feet of his disciples and slipped the
tables of the money lenders.
And sometimes this shift is sparked by profound
insights, A, uh, sudden realization
that cracks open old ways of thinking.
(10:38):
These epiphanies can happen at any time,
often when we least expect them.
>> Philip Gulley (10:44):
I was at our local Bible bookstore,
and, uh, someone there,
another customer, handed me a book that he had brought
with him. It was a book of Clarence Jordan's
sermons. And, uh,
he wrote a beautiful sermon in there
about universalism
based on Luke 15.
(11:07):
And he ended with this
wonderful line, God
is not a jailer,
jangling the keys on a
bunch of lifers, that is
people sentenced to prison for life. God
is a woman looking for a lost coin,
a shepherd searching for a lost sheep,
(11:30):
a father welcoming a lost child.
And the first time I read that,
uh, it was an
Abraham Maslow peak experience.
I knew it was true. I
knew it was true. And in that
moment, left behind the
(11:50):
evangelical Christianity that I had been
immersed in and became a universalist.
>> Sweet Miche (11:57):
Unlearning isn't a clean break.
Emotionally, we might cycle through doubt,
anger, and a sense of being adrift. It
might involve leaving our church, leaving friendships
or family. For me, it wasn't a
dramatic exit from a single community, but more of a
gradual distancing from. From certain ideas and
practices. But there was a period of feeling
(12:18):
untethered, questioning where I truly belonged
spiritually. And I think that this is true
for many young seekers. The politicizing of
faith is increasingly prioritizing
power and nationalism over
compassion and global community.
However, religious community can be an
incredibly powerful force of good.
>> Philip Gulley (12:41):
I say this almost every Sunday at, uh, my
Quaker meeting. I said, if you've spent the week wishing
you could do more to help the hungry, to home the
homeless and speak truth to power, and
you have felt like what you've done isn't enough,
couple your efforts to
ours so that what you have been doing can
be magnified. We can do more
(13:03):
together. Orgasm. Religion will
continue to be useful if
it does several things well, if it
brings people together in
loving, shared efforts to enhance
the world, if it respects personal
autonomy and the right of all people
to discern the best way forward for
(13:26):
them, as opposed to imposing a standard
upon them. We need to, um,
be much more discerning in what we give
our hearts and minds to. And be careful
not to support things that diminish
us or diminish others. If
we can find a way to include all,
(13:46):
to help all, to encourage
all, who wouldn't want that?
There's still a place for us. Who wouldn't want that?
>> Peterson Toscano (14:05):
If you want to listen to the full conversation,
which includes Sweetmesh, Philip Gulley.
>> Sweet Miche (14:10):
And me, along with a, uh, hilarious
Brokeback Bible reference, uh.
>> Peterson Toscano (14:15):
Oh, yeah, that's right. Visit
quakerstoday.org to find the show notes
for this episode and a link to the entire
45 minute conversation.
>> Philip Gulley (14:25):
You.
>> Peterson Toscano (14:25):
You will also find a link to an article I wrote
inspired by our conversation with Philip Gulley.
In it, I explore the role of fear in my
spiritual journey. Just visit
quakerstoday.org and see the show notes for this
episode.
>> Sweet Miche (14:39):
Peterson. Mhm.
You attended ultra conservative evangelical
churches for almost 20 years.
You've unlearned, um, a lot since
then. What resources helped you
in the unlearning, relearning and
liberation process?
>> Peterson Toscano (14:57):
Wow. And it is a process. It took time and there were
many influences. For the first few years, I
felt lost, but therapy helped
me find myself again. So, yeah,
I agree with Philip. Therapy is important.
And then I turned to writers. The words
and lives of poets like Audre Lorde, Federico Garcia
(15:18):
Lorca, um, Walt Whitman and Langston
Hughes particularly inspired me, and they
served as models. Then at the
Friends General Conference gathering back in
2002, I learned about Elaine
Pagels at the bookstore. Pagels
is a historian who's written extensively about first
century Christians, and she helped me see that the early
(15:41):
church had a diversity of beliefs and practices
that I had no idea about. Oh, and another
great resource were LGBTQ
film festivals. Seeing the
lives and the stories of people that I'd
been trained to fear and despise,
well, it totally deepened my love for the community
(16:01):
and for myself. What about you,
Sweetmeesh? I know you don't have the same background as
me, but you've been unlearning and relearning. What resources and
experiences have contributed to your
unlearning?
>> Sweet Miche (16:13):
Yeah, yeah. I think my first
moment of unlearning was joining Quaker voluntary
service. And in my first meeting
for worship in the barn at Pendle Hill,
a friend who passed while I was in
college spoke to me and she told me to
follow a path of faith. Since
(16:33):
then, I have also felt drawn to
writers. Poets like Mary Oliver
and Christian Wiman have helped me expand my
understanding of the divine from my own culture.
And I've also turned to writers who write about
divinity from contexts outside of
mine like Joy Harjo, the first
Native American poet laureate who writes about Earth
(16:56):
Spirit, and Nigerian writer Akwaeke
Imizi, who writes about the
Obanji. These writers have taught me, uh,
new concepts of God and how colonial
theologies have suppressed these spiritual
traditions. Encountering
different cosmologies and perspectives can
broaden our theological imaginations.
(17:19):
Hopefully the work of unlearning UH will lead to
more inclusive and relevant ways of enacting
our Quaker faith.
>> Peterson Toscano (17:27):
If you have any resources that have helped you in
your unlearning, send them our way by
email. That email is
podcastriendsjournal.org
or DM us on Instagram
X or TikTok.
>> Sweet Miche (17:42):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
Quakers Today. If you listen on Apple
Podcasts, rate and review the show, it
helps us more than you know and share the podcast
with Friends. The more the merrier.
Quakers Today is written and produced by.
>> Peterson Toscano (18:03):
Me Sweetmeesh and Me Peterson
Toscano. Music on today's show comes from
Epidemic Sound. Season 4 of Quakers
Today is sponsored by Friends
Fiduciary. Since
1898, Friends Fiduciary has
provided values aligned investment services to
fellow Quaker organizations. Friends
(18:24):
Fiduciary consistently achieves strong
financial returns while witnessing to
Quaker testimonies. They also help
individuals support organizations they hold
dear through giving strategies including uh,
donor advised funds,
charitable gift annuities and stock
gifts. Learn more about
(18:45):
FFC's
services@friendsfiduciary.org.
>> Sweet Miche (18:52):
This season is also brought to you by American
Friends Service Committee. Vulnerable
communities and the planet are counting on Quakers
to take action for a more just,
sustainable and peaceful world. The American
Friends Service Committee, or afsc,
works at the forefront of many social change
movements to meet urgent humanitarian
(19:14):
needs, challenge injustice and build
peace. Find out more about how you can get
involved in their program to protect migrant
communities, establish an enduring peace in
Palestine, demilitarize police
forces around the world, assert the right for food
for all, and more. Visit
afsc.org that's
(19:35):
afsc.org
visit
quakerstoday.org to.
>> Peterson Toscano (19:42):
See our show notes and a full transcript of this
episode. And if you stick around after the
closing you will hear listeners responses
to the question in your spiritual or personal
journey, what is a belief you had to unlearn?
>> Sweet Miche (19:57):
Thank you friend for listening.
(20:19):
M.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:30):
In a moment you will hear what listeners had to say
about beliefs they had to unlearn.
>> Sweet Miche (20:34):
Um, but first I am going to share
next month's question Beyond a roof
and four walls, what does the word home uh mean
to you? We can Think of home in different ways.
There's physical home, the space we
inhabit. There's also the emotional home, that sense
of comfort and security.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:53):
And then there's the societal home, our place within
a community or culture. Next month's
question is, beyond a roof and four walls,
what does the word home mean to you?
Leave a voice memo with your name and the town
where you live. The number to call don't be
afraid is 317-quakers.
(21:13):
That's
317-782-5377.
You can also send an email. I have these contact
details in our show notes
over@quakerstoday.org now
we hear answers.
>> Sweet Miche (21:27):
To the question, what is something you had to
unlearn?
>> Peterson Toscano (21:32):
One thing I learned this month, sweetmesh,
is that many people are
afraid to leave voicemails. And I
know, I definitely know. It takes courage.
>> Sweet Miche (21:42):
Yeah. And I love getting to hear the
voicemails and hearing people's words in their
own voices.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:49):
Same. Uh, so no voicemails.
But wait, wait.
We have breaking news.
We have just received a
voicemail. Thank goodness. And here it
is.
>> Roxanne (22:07):
Hi, my name is Roxanne.
The big thing that I find as I
explore and seek in
many different religious styles and
methodologies is that there is no
one group or one person or one people who
have the big the answer, like, capital
A answer. I find little answers and
(22:29):
bits of the answer and whatever that may be
everywhere I go. And that, uh, included when
I recently went to my very first Friends
meeting in Atlanta. And it was
lovely, peaceful, and divine.
It's just beautiful that the answer might just
be that there is no answer. You get to kind
of continue to seek it. Anyway,
(22:53):
thanks.
>> Peterson Toscano (22:55):
Oh, Roxanne, thank you for this voicemail.
It is so sweet, and I'm so glad you had a great
experience the first time in meeting.
Whew. See? Voicemails. It makes the whole show
better.
We did get many responses on
social media. On, uh, my Facebook page alone, I received
over 30 answers. In looking
(23:17):
at them, I found it fascinating to see the common
threads, so I thought I'd share a few themes that
popped up.
>> Sweet Miche (23:24):
What stood out?
>> Peterson Toscano (23:25):
Well, a big one was folks wrestling with the traditional
ideas about God they grew up with. Lots of
people mentioned letting go of a harsh or
judgmental image of God, like, uh,
Angela. She shared unlearning the idea
quote, that God is not waiting to zap me
for asking questions, doubting being
angry or creative. Snark
(23:47):
and Ray talked about realizing their experience of
the divine was valid, even if it wasn't.
Like the common, masculine, and often harsh
and angry version of God they'd encountered.
It was about finding their own
connection. Some people went further
and, um, they questioned core doctrines. David
(24:07):
was very direct. He said he unlearned
substitutionary atonement and called it
bs. Others, like Christine,
shared that she had to unlearn the very belief in
God and. And the afterlife.
>> Sweet Miche (24:20):
Wow, that's significant.
Unlearning. It takes courage to question
those foundational beliefs.
>> Peterson Toscano (24:28):
Yeah, it. It does, absolutely. And.
And that connects to another theme. Unlearning
feelings of unworthiness and
learning to value self care. Amy mentioned that
feeling of unworthiness. Angela also talked
about unlearning, quote, that I have to
prove my worth or earn love even on the
days I forget my deodorant or common
(24:50):
sense.
>> Sweet Miche (24:52):
Forgetting deodorant doesn't make you unlovable.
>> Peterson Toscano (24:55):
And Christine shared a simple but profound one
quote, that self care is not
self indulgent. That's something many
people struggle with, right?
>> Sweet Miche (25:06):
Mm, definitely. That's very, um,
Puritan. And especially if you're
raised with a focus on constant service to
others without balancing it with care
for self.
>> Peterson Toscano (25:18):
Exactly. Then there was the theme of
separating genuine spirituality from
rigid religion. Joe summed it up
nicely, saying, quote, I can be
spiritual and not be part of a religion, end
quote. Finding that path outside of
institutions. Finally, some
folks mentioned unlearning broader assumptions.
(25:40):
Whittier, who mentioned unlearning limitations around
even a simple word quote, that the word
relax can mean so many things,
end quote.
>> Sweet Miche (25:50):
That's brilliant. It shows that
unlearning happens on so many levels.
>> Peterson Toscano (25:56):
Yeah. It's not just about faith, but, like, personal
identity and beliefs.
And it was just powerful to see people sharing their
journeys of letting go and finding what feels true for
them now. So a, uh, big thank you to
Angela, Ray, Tim, Amy, Iris,
Christine, Steve, David, Tyler,
Joe, Deepak, and Whittier for sharing so openly
(26:19):
on that Facebook thread. It definitely gave
me a lot to think about.
>> Sweet Miche (26:28):
For next month, we'll be exploring the idea
of home.
>> Peterson Toscano (26:33):
Next month's question is beyond a roof and
four walls, what does the word home mean?
Mean to you? Come on. I need
you to make me happy. I need you to leave a
voicemail, please, at 317-Quakers.
It's so easy to remember. That's
317-782-537-7317,
(26:54):
Quakers. You can actually also
text that number, but a voicemail now, that
would make me do a happy dance.
>> Sweet Miche (27:03):
And you can also call it any time of the day or
night. It won't wake us up.
>> Peterson Toscano (27:07):
No, it won't. And you can call more than once if
you're not happy with your first voicemail. We'll choose the best
version, I promise.
>> Sweet Miche (27:15):
Beyond a roof and four walls, what does the word
home mean to you? Thank you
for listening, friend. See you.
>> Peterson Toscano (27:29):
Sa.
>> Sweet Miche (27:33):
Mhm
(27:55):
it.
In this episode of Quakers Today, uh, we ask, what
is something you had to unlearn?
>> Peterson Toscano (00:07):
Philip Gulley, a Quaker pastor, writer
and speaker from Danville, Indiana, joins us
to talk about his journey of unlearning. He is
the author of Unlearning How Unbelieving
Helped me Believe.
>> Sweet Miche (00:20):
And we share resources that have helped us in our
process of questioning what we believe.
I'm Peterson Cintiscano and I am
Sweetmeesh. This is season four, episode
five of the Quakers Today podcast, a project
of Friends Publishing Corporation. This season
of Quakers Today is sponsored by American Friends
Service Committee and Friends Fiduciary.
>> Philip Gulley (00:43):
I just like the kind of people that Quaker
meetings attract.
>> Sweet Miche (00:49):
That's Philip Gulley. Peterson and I
recently had a long conversation with him.
>> Philip Gulley (00:55):
And the funny thing is, the
evangelical Quaker meetings I've gone to, the Bible
thumping Quaker meetings, and the most
unprogrammed progressive Quaker
meetings attract the same
kind of people.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:12):
But we didn't reach out, uh, to Philip to talk about
Quakerism. We were curious about
his own long and winding spiritual
journey.
>> Sweet Miche (01:21):
He wrote about it in his book Unlearning.
How Unbelieving helped me believe.
Peterson, in our conversation with Philip, what
stood out to you?
>> Peterson Toscano (01:32):
Fear came up a lot in this conversation. And fear has a profound
impact on our bodies, including our minds.
Uh, when we experience fear,
neural pathways narrow, making it difficult
to recall what we know. It hinders critical
thinking and definitely interferes with
rational decision making. Philip, in
talking about his own journey from Catholicism to
(01:54):
evangelicalism to universalism,
he explained how some of us initially
turn to God to alleviate our fears.
>> Philip Gulley (02:03):
One of the first things we learn that God loves
us, that God's in control. It is a product
of our deepest need, which is to,
uh, live life without being crippled
by fear or a sense of hopelessness.
And so we posit all these powers into a
divine being so that we don't have to, uh,
go through life worrying that no one's in control
(02:26):
and that this will somehow end up okay.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:30):
As a teen, I attended a church where the
leaders routinely warned us about
how we could be led astray from the faith. They
would say, be sober, uh, be
vigilant, because your adversary, the devil as
a roaring lion, walketh about
seeking whom he may devour. Uh,
(02:50):
I have no idea why he did it with that accent, but
it was the King James. I do remember that.
According to Philip, using fear to
control behavior is nothing new. It
goes back to the beginning, like the book of
Genesis and the Garden of Eden. God
gave them a vast garden of fresh Produce,
(03:11):
but warned them they must not eat
of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
>> Philip Gulley (03:17):
We know now that four different
authors wrote the first
five books of the Bible. Some of those
sources were very poetic,
exploratory, had all kinds of
questions, and just wrote very
movingly. Others of them were
priestly and, um, really
(03:37):
liked nailing things down.
And I suspect the person who came up with
that story, with somebody who
worshiped every day at the altar of
fear, this is the problem. And, uh, here's where
that will get you. It will get you thrown out of the
garden, subject to work, and be miserable.
And it's just such a depressing
(03:59):
story.
>> Peterson Toscano (04:00):
Yeah, it's depressing indeed. For centuries,
religious leaders have served as spiritual
overlords, keeping folks like me on a straight
and narrow path. Frankly,
I liked it that way, which I know sounds weird,
but it was easier to outsource the work of
figuring out God's will for my life than to do it
myself. How? Unlike the early
(04:22):
Quakers, these Friends dared to
turn their noses up at church authorities and the
educated clergy class.
Instead, they looked directly to God for
guidance. They questioned,
liberated themselves from church teachings and
sought to live lives led by the Spirit.
(04:42):
Centuries later, here in the United States, we are
witnessing the overreach of religious leaders
again, which, according to Philip, has
political consequences.
>> Philip Gulley (04:53):
Well, it's clear that fear is
probably the driving motivation in
our culture. I think that's especially
obvious now with the rise of,
uh, Donald Trump and his supporters,
which in a way
was a masterfully
(05:13):
evil manipulation
of human fears. It
identified and targeted the Other,
painted a dystopian,
uh, worldview of what might
happen if we didn't fix this
and get rid of these people. The
(05:34):
other. And I think the reason
82% of American evangelicals voted
for him is that is the language
they understand.
They have been steeped in a culture
of fear, in
judgment. And
(05:56):
so when he talks, he's speaking their
language.
>> Peterson Toscano (06:08):
In my earlier years, I submitted myself to
evangelical and Pentecostal ministers who spoke
incessantly about love.
But they also preached fear. Fear of
secular humanism, New Age teaching,
environmentalism, socialism, and gangs of
homosexual men out to convert and recruit our
(06:29):
children. These fears kept us
in the pew. They fired us up to support
politicians promoting Christian nationalism.
The fear instilled in us led to actions that
aligned perfectly with a political movement.
Having to unlearn this type of fear himself. What
does Philip say to the people caught up in the current
(06:49):
political movement, steeped in fear?
>> Philip Gulley (06:52):
I encourage as many of them as I meet and
encounter to get therapy
because I believe it's indicative of a mental
neurosis that needs to be
healed. The thing is,
on one level, it works for them
emotionally. They find it emotionally
satisfying. And when you find your life
(07:13):
emotionally satisfying, you're not inclined to
get therapy. You're not
inclined to reflect and to
ask, are these beliefs really
helpful? Are they helping
me become a, uh, more loving
and gracious and wise person?
(07:33):
You don't ask those questions because you don't
feel that existential
vacancy that others might feel
if they were of that same
mindset.
>> Peterson Toscano (07:46):
For Philip, unlearning means
fearlessly examining our faith
and what we have chosen to believe.
>> Sweet Miche (07:55):
Unlike you, Peterson, I didn't experience
an evangelical tradition. I was raised
in a mainstream denomination, the United
Methodist Church. Frankly, it
wasn't scary, but it also wasn't
terribly inspiring either.
I turned away from Christianity as a teen,
uh, because I didn't see my fellow congregants
(08:18):
living Jesus's teachings.
They're more interested in, uh, upholding social
hierarchies, judging others, and
focusing on rules rather than
relationship. But
even after leaving, unlearning wasn't easy.
All of us have deeply ingrained ideas about
right and wrong. But dismantling these
(08:40):
frameworks of religious dogma can feel like
unsettling the very ground beneath our
feet. To question
and potentially release these long
held ideas requires courage.
But it's also the first step towards a more loving
way of being.
>> Philip Gulley (08:58):
I, uh, look at every belief and ask this question. Is it
moving me forward or is it holding me back?
And by moving forward, I mean is it
helping me grow? Is it making me a more
loving person? Then I retain it.
And I don't care who taught it to me. It doesn't matter if I
learned that from a Catholic nun at the age of
(09:19):
six. If it still works, I'm going to
keep it. If it makes me a
smaller person, if it makes me love
less, if it diminishes
others, then I feel very
comfortable jettisoning it and letting it
go and, uh, saying I'm not going to let that
belief inform my life any longer. I think we need to
(09:41):
do this not only with religion, but I think we need to do
it with nationalism, with what we were
taught about America and the beliefs that we
retain and, uh, the beliefs that we really
ought to let go of.
>> Sweet Miche (09:55):
As Philip said earlier, one of the first
things we learn is that God loves us, that
God is in control. As a child, I
learned literally that God is my heavenly
father. To move beyond that, to Grow
up, in a way, was to shift my whole understanding
of the Bible and its teachings. Unlearning the
Protestant God was a process of questioning
(10:17):
those foundational images.
For me, I realized I love the Jesus who
washed the feet of his disciples and slipped the
tables of the money lenders.
And sometimes this shift is sparked by profound
insights, A, uh, sudden realization
that cracks open old ways of thinking.
(10:38):
These epiphanies can happen at any time,
often when we least expect them.
>> Philip Gulley (10:44):
I was at our local Bible bookstore,
and, uh, someone there,
another customer, handed me a book that he had brought
with him. It was a book of Clarence Jordan's
sermons. And, uh,
he wrote a beautiful sermon in there
about universalism
based on Luke 15.
(11:07):
And he ended with this
wonderful line, God
is not a jailer,
jangling the keys on a
bunch of lifers, that is
people sentenced to prison for life. God
is a woman looking for a lost coin,
a shepherd searching for a lost sheep,
(11:30):
a father welcoming a lost child.
And the first time I read that,
uh, it was an
Abraham Maslow peak experience.
I knew it was true. I
knew it was true. And in that
moment, left behind the
(11:50):
evangelical Christianity that I had been
immersed in and became a universalist.
>> Sweet Miche (11:57):
Unlearning isn't a clean break.
Emotionally, we might cycle through doubt,
anger, and a sense of being adrift. It
might involve leaving our church, leaving friendships
or family. For me, it wasn't a
dramatic exit from a single community, but more of a
gradual distancing from. From certain ideas and
practices. But there was a period of feeling
(12:18):
untethered, questioning where I truly belonged
spiritually. And I think that this is true
for many young seekers. The politicizing of
faith is increasingly prioritizing
power and nationalism over
compassion and global community.
However, religious community can be an
incredibly powerful force of good.
>> Philip Gulley (12:41):
I say this almost every Sunday at, uh, my
Quaker meeting. I said, if you've spent the week wishing
you could do more to help the hungry, to home the
homeless and speak truth to power, and
you have felt like what you've done isn't enough,
couple your efforts to
ours so that what you have been doing can
be magnified. We can do more
(13:03):
together. Orgasm. Religion will
continue to be useful if
it does several things well, if it
brings people together in
loving, shared efforts to enhance
the world, if it respects personal
autonomy and the right of all people
to discern the best way forward for
(13:26):
them, as opposed to imposing a standard
upon them. We need to, um,
be much more discerning in what we give
our hearts and minds to. And be careful
not to support things that diminish
us or diminish others. If
we can find a way to include all,
(13:46):
to help all, to encourage
all, who wouldn't want that?
There's still a place for us. Who wouldn't want that?
>> Peterson Toscano (14:05):
If you want to listen to the full conversation,
which includes Sweetmesh, Philip Gulley.
>> Sweet Miche (14:10):
And me, along with a, uh, hilarious
Brokeback Bible reference, uh.
>> Peterson Toscano (14:15):
Oh, yeah, that's right. Visit
quakerstoday.org to find the show notes
for this episode and a link to the entire
45 minute conversation.
>> Philip Gulley (14:25):
You.
>> Peterson Toscano (14:25):
You will also find a link to an article I wrote
inspired by our conversation with Philip Gulley.
In it, I explore the role of fear in my
spiritual journey. Just visit
quakerstoday.org and see the show notes for this
episode.
>> Sweet Miche (14:39):
Peterson. Mhm.
You attended ultra conservative evangelical
churches for almost 20 years.
You've unlearned, um, a lot since
then. What resources helped you
in the unlearning, relearning and
liberation process?
>> Peterson Toscano (14:57):
Wow. And it is a process. It took time and there were
many influences. For the first few years, I
felt lost, but therapy helped
me find myself again. So, yeah,
I agree with Philip. Therapy is important.
And then I turned to writers. The words
and lives of poets like Audre Lorde, Federico Garcia
(15:18):
Lorca, um, Walt Whitman and Langston
Hughes particularly inspired me, and they
served as models. Then at the
Friends General Conference gathering back in
2002, I learned about Elaine
Pagels at the bookstore. Pagels
is a historian who's written extensively about first
century Christians, and she helped me see that the early
(15:41):
church had a diversity of beliefs and practices
that I had no idea about. Oh, and another
great resource were LGBTQ
film festivals. Seeing the
lives and the stories of people that I'd
been trained to fear and despise,
well, it totally deepened my love for the community
(16:01):
and for myself. What about you,
Sweetmeesh? I know you don't have the same background as
me, but you've been unlearning and relearning. What resources and
experiences have contributed to your
unlearning?
>> Sweet Miche (16:13):
Yeah, yeah. I think my first
moment of unlearning was joining Quaker voluntary
service. And in my first meeting
for worship in the barn at Pendle Hill,
a friend who passed while I was in
college spoke to me and she told me to
follow a path of faith. Since
(16:33):
then, I have also felt drawn to
writers. Poets like Mary Oliver
and Christian Wiman have helped me expand my
understanding of the divine from my own culture.
And I've also turned to writers who write about
divinity from contexts outside of
mine like Joy Harjo, the first
Native American poet laureate who writes about Earth
(16:56):
Spirit, and Nigerian writer Akwaeke
Imizi, who writes about the
Obanji. These writers have taught me, uh,
new concepts of God and how colonial
theologies have suppressed these spiritual
traditions. Encountering
different cosmologies and perspectives can
broaden our theological imaginations.
(17:19):
Hopefully the work of unlearning UH will lead to
more inclusive and relevant ways of enacting
our Quaker faith.
>> Peterson Toscano (17:27):
If you have any resources that have helped you in
your unlearning, send them our way by
email. That email is
podcastriendsjournal.org
or DM us on Instagram
X or TikTok.
>> Sweet Miche (17:42):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
Quakers Today. If you listen on Apple
Podcasts, rate and review the show, it
helps us more than you know and share the podcast
with Friends. The more the merrier.
Quakers Today is written and produced by.
>> Peterson Toscano (18:03):
Me Sweetmeesh and Me Peterson
Toscano. Music on today's show comes from
Epidemic Sound. Season 4 of Quakers
Today is sponsored by Friends
Fiduciary. Since
1898, Friends Fiduciary has
provided values aligned investment services to
fellow Quaker organizations. Friends
(18:24):
Fiduciary consistently achieves strong
financial returns while witnessing to
Quaker testimonies. They also help
individuals support organizations they hold
dear through giving strategies including uh,
donor advised funds,
charitable gift annuities and stock
gifts. Learn more about
(18:45):
FFC's
services@friendsfiduciary.org.
>> Sweet Miche (18:52):
This season is also brought to you by American
Friends Service Committee. Vulnerable
communities and the planet are counting on Quakers
to take action for a more just,
sustainable and peaceful world. The American
Friends Service Committee, or afsc,
works at the forefront of many social change
movements to meet urgent humanitarian
(19:14):
needs, challenge injustice and build
peace. Find out more about how you can get
involved in their program to protect migrant
communities, establish an enduring peace in
Palestine, demilitarize police
forces around the world, assert the right for food
for all, and more. Visit
afsc.org that's
(19:35):
afsc.org
visit
quakerstoday.org to.
>> Peterson Toscano (19:42):
See our show notes and a full transcript of this
episode. And if you stick around after the
closing you will hear listeners responses
to the question in your spiritual or personal
journey, what is a belief you had to unlearn?
>> Sweet Miche (19:57):
Thank you friend for listening.
(20:19):
M.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:30):
In a moment you will hear what listeners had to say
about beliefs they had to unlearn.
>> Sweet Miche (20:34):
Um, but first I am going to share
next month's question Beyond a roof
and four walls, what does the word home uh mean
to you? We can Think of home in different ways.
There's physical home, the space we
inhabit. There's also the emotional home, that sense
of comfort and security.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:53):
And then there's the societal home, our place within
a community or culture. Next month's
question is, beyond a roof and four walls,
what does the word home mean to you?
Leave a voice memo with your name and the town
where you live. The number to call don't be
afraid is 317-quakers.
(21:13):
That's
317-782-5377.
You can also send an email. I have these contact
details in our show notes
over@quakerstoday.org now
we hear answers.
>> Sweet Miche (21:27):
To the question, what is something you had to
unlearn?
>> Peterson Toscano (21:32):
One thing I learned this month, sweetmesh,
is that many people are
afraid to leave voicemails. And I
know, I definitely know. It takes courage.
>> Sweet Miche (21:42):
Yeah. And I love getting to hear the
voicemails and hearing people's words in their
own voices.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:49):
Same. Uh, so no voicemails.
But wait, wait.
We have breaking news.
We have just received a
voicemail. Thank goodness. And here it
is.
>> Roxanne (22:07):
Hi, my name is Roxanne.
The big thing that I find as I
explore and seek in
many different religious styles and
methodologies is that there is no
one group or one person or one people who
have the big the answer, like, capital
A answer. I find little answers and
(22:29):
bits of the answer and whatever that may be
everywhere I go. And that, uh, included when
I recently went to my very first Friends
meeting in Atlanta. And it was
lovely, peaceful, and divine.
It's just beautiful that the answer might just
be that there is no answer. You get to kind
of continue to seek it. Anyway,
(22:53):
thanks.
>> Peterson Toscano (22:55):
Oh, Roxanne, thank you for this voicemail.
It is so sweet, and I'm so glad you had a great
experience the first time in meeting.
Whew. See? Voicemails. It makes the whole show
better.
We did get many responses on
social media. On, uh, my Facebook page alone, I received
over 30 answers. In looking
(23:17):
at them, I found it fascinating to see the common
threads, so I thought I'd share a few themes that
popped up.
>> Sweet Miche (23:24):
What stood out?
>> Peterson Toscano (23:25):
Well, a big one was folks wrestling with the traditional
ideas about God they grew up with. Lots of
people mentioned letting go of a harsh or
judgmental image of God, like, uh,
Angela. She shared unlearning the idea
quote, that God is not waiting to zap me
for asking questions, doubting being
angry or creative. Snark
(23:47):
and Ray talked about realizing their experience of
the divine was valid, even if it wasn't.
Like the common, masculine, and often harsh
and angry version of God they'd encountered.
It was about finding their own
connection. Some people went further
and, um, they questioned core doctrines. David
(24:07):
was very direct. He said he unlearned
substitutionary atonement and called it
bs. Others, like Christine,
shared that she had to unlearn the very belief in
God and. And the afterlife.
>> Sweet Miche (24:20):
Wow, that's significant.
Unlearning. It takes courage to question
those foundational beliefs.
>> Peterson Toscano (24:28):
Yeah, it. It does, absolutely. And.
And that connects to another theme. Unlearning
feelings of unworthiness and
learning to value self care. Amy mentioned that
feeling of unworthiness. Angela also talked
about unlearning, quote, that I have to
prove my worth or earn love even on the
days I forget my deodorant or common
(24:50):
sense.
>> Sweet Miche (24:52):
Forgetting deodorant doesn't make you unlovable.
>> Peterson Toscano (24:55):
And Christine shared a simple but profound one
quote, that self care is not
self indulgent. That's something many
people struggle with, right?
>> Sweet Miche (25:06):
Mm, definitely. That's very, um,
Puritan. And especially if you're
raised with a focus on constant service to
others without balancing it with care
for self.
>> Peterson Toscano (25:18):
Exactly. Then there was the theme of
separating genuine spirituality from
rigid religion. Joe summed it up
nicely, saying, quote, I can be
spiritual and not be part of a religion, end
quote. Finding that path outside of
institutions. Finally, some
folks mentioned unlearning broader assumptions.
(25:40):
Whittier, who mentioned unlearning limitations around
even a simple word quote, that the word
relax can mean so many things,
end quote.
>> Sweet Miche (25:50):
That's brilliant. It shows that
unlearning happens on so many levels.
>> Peterson Toscano (25:56):
Yeah. It's not just about faith, but, like, personal
identity and beliefs.
And it was just powerful to see people sharing their
journeys of letting go and finding what feels true for
them now. So a, uh, big thank you to
Angela, Ray, Tim, Amy, Iris,
Christine, Steve, David, Tyler,
Joe, Deepak, and Whittier for sharing so openly
(26:19):
on that Facebook thread. It definitely gave
me a lot to think about.
>> Sweet Miche (26:28):
For next month, we'll be exploring the idea
of home.
>> Peterson Toscano (26:33):
Next month's question is beyond a roof and
four walls, what does the word home mean?
Mean to you? Come on. I need
you to make me happy. I need you to leave a
voicemail, please, at 317-Quakers.
It's so easy to remember. That's
317-782-537-7317,
(26:54):
Quakers. You can actually also
text that number, but a voicemail now, that
would make me do a happy dance.
>> Sweet Miche (27:03):
And you can also call it any time of the day or
night. It won't wake us up.
>> Peterson Toscano (27:07):
No, it won't. And you can call more than once if
you're not happy with your first voicemail. We'll choose the best
version, I promise.
>> Sweet Miche (27:15):
Beyond a roof and four walls, what does the word
home mean to you? Thank you
for listening, friend. See you.
>> Peterson Toscano (27:29):
Sa.
>> Sweet Miche (27:33):
Mhm
(27:55):
it.
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