May 14, 2024 • 27 mins
In this episode of Quakers Today, we ask, “What does it mean to be welcomed in a space?”
Peterson Toscano (he/him) and Miche McCall (they/them) discuss the concept of feeling welcome. Miche describes their sense of safety under a blanket while podcasting from Logrono, Spain, during their Camino de Santiago pilgrimage. They explore how welcoming spaces can be challenging for individuals with unique identities, especially in religious settings, and emphasize that genuine inclusivity often differs from mere proclamations of welcome.
To see our full show notes and transcript visit www.quakerstoday.org
Rhiannon Grant"If the Quaker community were a household, who would be the owners and who would be the guests?"
Peterson Toscano chats with Rhiannon Grant (she/her) from Woodbrooke Quaker Learning and Research Centre about her article, “A Family of Friends,” which explores the importance of creating welcoming spaces within Quaker communities. Rhiannon, a lifelong Quaker and member of various faith communities, uses the metaphor of a household to explore the roles and feelings of welcome within Quaker meetings. She also discusses how implicit signals can create exclusion and emphasizes the significance of creating spaces where diverse theological beliefs are openly discussed and valued.
Learn more about Rhiannon Grant
Rhiannon Grant is Woodbrooke’s Deputy Programme Leader for Research and Programme Coordinator for Modern Quaker Thought. Rhiannon’s work at Woodbrooke spans academic and practice-based approaches to Quakerism. She teaches in Woodbrooke’s short course program, supervises research, and teaches postgraduate students within the Centre for Research in Quaker Studies. Outside Woodbrooke, she researches and writes about Quakers for both academic and general audiences, as well as writing fiction and poetry.
Her interests center on British Quakerism in the 20th and 21st centuries, especially Quaker theology, ways of speaking about God, and the developments in practice and religious diversity.
You can follow Rhiannon as @bookgeekrelng on X and on Facebook. Watch a YouTube video of her keynote address about Deep Hospitality. Read her Pendle Hill pamphlet Telling the Truth About God: Quaker Approaches to Theology, and look out for a new one entitled Deep Hospitality.
Lisa Graustein on What is a Welcoming Space?Lisa Graustein (she/her), a diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) facilitator, discusses creating truly welcoming spaces in Quaker meetings by ensuring physical accessibility and accommodating diverse needs. She emphasizes the importance of inclusivity, recognizing varied contributions, and continually evaluating if all voices are being heard and needs met. This approach requires ongoing effort and reflection to foster genuine inclusivity.
This is a short excerpt from a QuakerSpeak video featuring a variety of voices. The video is entitled What’s the Difference Between a Welcoming and an Inclusive Space? See more videos like this on the QuakerSpeak YouTube channel or at QuakerSpeak.org.
Learn more about Lisa Graustein.
Lisa Graustein is a teacher, facilitator, and artist who holds an MEd in racial justice education. For 20
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Miche McCall (00:01):
In this episode of Quakers Today, we ask what does
it mean to be welcomed?
Peterson Toscano (00:06):
Lisa Graustein considers how Quaker meetings
communicate whether they arewelcoming or not. And Rhiannon
Grant wonders if a Quakercommunity were a large
household, who would be theowners, the family, the
visitors, and the outliers. I'mPeterson Toscano,
Miche McCall (00:24):
And I'm Miche McCall. This is season three,
episode three of the QuakersToday podcast, a project of
Friends Publishing Corporation.This season of Quakers, Today is
sponsored by the AmericanFriends Service Committee.
Peterson Toscano (00:38):
Hi Miche, it's great to have you back talking
about welcome and welcomingspaces. Do you feel welcomed
right now where you are?
Miche McCall (00:46):
I am currently under a blanket so I can't think
of a more safe and welcomingplace for myself.
Peterson Toscano (00:52):
Which I know a lot of people think what is that
about? Why would you be under ablanket? But it is a classic
move of podcaster and radiopeople when they're on the road.
So we're on the road are you?
Rhiannon Grant (01:03):
Logroño in central northern Spain. I just
finished my seventh day walkingon the Camino de Santiago, which
is a religious pilgrimage acrossall of Spain.
Peterson Toscano (01:14):
And it's a very international sort of
thing. I know people come fromall over the world. How are you
feeling? Being there as anAmerican, as a queer nonbinary
American? How welcome are you?
Rhiannon Grant (01:27):
I feel incredibly welcome by the people
who are walking. Though I feelseparate from many people
because of an aspect of myidentity that's hard to explain
when first meeting someone.
Peterson Toscano (01:43):
Lots of times people don't feel welcome in
other countries, butparticularly in religious
spaces.
Miche McCall (01:49):
Mmm.
Peterson Toscano (01:49):
Lots of people will see an "All Welcome" sign
in front of a church, but weknow some restrictions apply,
and we know who we are. That weknow that we're may not
genuinely be welcome, and that'swhat this episode is all about.
And before we jump into it,though, listener, we want you to
know you are welcome not only tolisten to this podcast but on
(02:12):
our new social media channelswhich we have created.
So let's get to the program. Ihad the opportunity to speak
with Rhiannon Grant, the DeputyProgram Leader and Program
Coordinator at Woodbrooke.Woodbrooke is an international
Quaker learning and researchcenter that's based in Britain.
(02:35):
Rhiannon wrote an article forFriends Journal about welcoming
spaces.
Rhiannon Grant (02:43):
I am a Quaker, I grew up as a Quaker, so I'm a
cradle-Quaker, although nottechnically a birthright friend.
I'm also a member of some otherfaith communities, so in
particular, I'm a Druid, amember of the Order of Bards,
Ovates and Druids. I'm in touchwith the Buddhist community, the
(03:04):
community I'm into being, I'm awoman, I'm a cis woman, I'm a
white woman in the Britishcontext, I'm a middle class
woman that can come overdifferently in other cultural
contexts. I'm a queer woman I'mbi and I'm married to a woman.
We got married in a Quakerwedding three years ago now
(03:26):
that's hard to believe that it'sgone that quickly.
If the Quaker community were ahousehold, who would be the
owners and who would be theguests? Even a small meeting is
usually bigger than the nuclearfamily household we often
picture today. So it might beuseful to think about communal
(03:49):
living, extended families, orthe sorts of large household
described in 19th-centurynovels. These groups often
center around a few people, acentral couple, perhaps, or a
core group who set things up. Ifyour meeting was a big household
all living together, what wouldyou feel your role to be? Are
(04:11):
you an adult member of the corefamily, secure in your position,
and able to have a say in whathappens? Perhaps you feel like a
family member, but not part ofthe core. Perhaps like a child
or an in-law or a distantcousin, acknowledged but
sometimes ignored, not takenseriously for whatever reason,
(04:33):
and sometimes anxious aboutwhether you can stay or not.
Perhaps you know that you're aguest only present on a
temporary basis and happy.Perhaps, you'd like to join the
family but get treated as aguest. Some big households have
(04:53):
actual staff and some treatcertain members of the family
like employees. There can bedeeply ambiguous positions in
such households. Senior staffmight be said to feel like part
of the family. But what looksone way to the family may not
seem the same to the staff.
(05:23):
I remember hearing someone speakin ministry actually about
wanting to be friends, what doesit mean that we're the religious
Society of Friends? Or what doesit mean to really be friendly to
one another? And I rememberthinking, then friends is all
well and good. But actually,when you come into membership,
(05:44):
when you make a public lifelongcommitment to a community,
doesn't that take it tosomething deeper?
Peterson Toscano (05:50):
Mmm.
Rhiannon Grant (05:50):
And I guess I probably started thinking about
family or that was one of thethings that put me on that
track.
Peterson Toscano (05:58):
I'm curious about Quaker meetings. I mean,
there's so many religiousinstitutions, Christian
churches, I think of inparticular, that have these big
bold signs, "All Welcome". Butwe know that in some
denominations and traditions,there are some exceptions that
apply.
Rhiannon Grant (06:15):
The people who are not welcome work that out
quite quickly, usually, even ifwe aren't explicit about it.
Definitely, I've heard stories,for example, about someone who
was really involved in a Quakercommunity, but got comments
like, "you don't dress like therest of us, do you?" It might be
(06:38):
true, but the way that it's saidand the fact of that observation
being important enough tosomeone to make it out loud
shows off the ways in whichsomeone is different. In that
case, I think along class lines,and people feel unwelcome. They
draw their own conclusions fromthat sort of comment, usually,
(07:00):
rightly,
Peterson Toscano (07:01):
Again, I'm thinking broadly of various
faith communities, there aretiers of welcome, right? There's
different levels. So you may bewelcome to sit in the pews, or
sit in the seats, but notwelcome to serve.
Rhiannon Grant (07:15):
I have sometimes been treated in ways that made
me think people are reading myage as something that means they
don't trust me as a responsibleadult. I'm still a university
student, even though I'm doing aPhD. And I've heard people say
things like, well, so-and-so'svery enthusiastic, but I'm not
sure he's reliable. Do you meanthat he's young? And yeah, there
(07:42):
are lots of ways sexuality, butalso age, people's assumptions
about gender, and what kinds ofroles are associated with
different gender presentationsand things. They are all factors
in what kinds of service we'reoffered.
Peterson Toscano (08:00):
How do theological diversity and
personal beliefs impact thesense of belonging or exclusion
within the Quaker community? Andcan you provide an example of
how these tensions have beennavigated?
Rhiannon Grant (08:14):
We can see it as a richness, we can see it as
threatening. People often feelthat sense of not wanting to
share your whole self, notfeeling that maybe you're really
welcome. And I think that canhappen around theological
diversity. I do hear storiesfrom people who say, Well, I'm
(08:35):
really a Christian and I don'tfeel that that's welcome my
Quaker meeting, or I'm really anon-theist and I don't feel that
that's welcome in my Quakermeeting. I once heard both of
those things from people whoturned out to be in the same
meeting. And I thought maybewhat's going on there is that
we're not talking about itenough. There is something about
(08:59):
trying to make spaces in whichwe feel safe enough to be
vulnerable and to share some ofthose things, often to find out
that actually that diversity iswelcome, even though we might
feel quite cautious aroundsharing.
Miche McCall (09:32):
That was Rhiannon Grant from the Woodbrooke Quaker
Learning Center in Birmingham,England. She is the author of
the soon to be released PendleHill pamphlet Deep Hospitality.
Rhiannon wrote the article, "AFamily of friends? Ttaking
Welcome to a Deeper Level." Itappears in the May 2024 issue of
Friends Journal. You could alsoread it at friendsjournal.org
Peterson Toscano (10:16):
Okay, let's bring another voice into this
conversation about welcome andinclusion. Lisa Graustein. She's
an educator, facilitator andartist with a Master of
Education in racial justiceeducation. Lisa has been
teaching in public, middle andhigh schools for 20 years.
Miche McCall (10:37):
Currently, Lisa works as a Diversity, Equity and
Inclusion facilitator andtrainer with schools and
nonprofits across the Northeast.
Lisa Graustein (10:48):
When I think about a welcoming space, I think
about a space where I can walkin and have some immediate
orientation to "am I safe here?"Am I going to be able to figure
out how I need to be here?Whether that's my home meeting,
whether that's somebody else'smeeting or Quaker church. If I
walk in a meeting door, andsomebody says, "welcome, can I
(11:09):
give you some information aboutour meeting?" That's really
different than if I walk in thedoor and say, "Oh, are you a
Quaker?" Many people in the USwill assume I'm a Quaker because
I fit a lot of the demographicnorms of what a Quaker looks
like. I know for some of myfriends of color, that's not
their experience walking in thedoor. And that are you a Quaker
can be an assumption of somehowthink maybe you don't belong
(11:31):
here, it'd be implied. What areall the things we do to make
those spaces accessible? That iswhere we get the deeper work of
inclusion. Can people physicallyaccess the building? Can they
meet their physical andcognitive needs in the way that
we're doing programming? And isthere space to get whatever
(11:51):
accommodations might be needed?Are we acting as if our young
people are fully a part of ourbody? Or these kids that are
kind of there some of the time?Do we understand that parents of
young children, that people whomight be in a process of
transition or coming out, thatpeople who are grieving or
(12:12):
carrying other intense needsmight need different care than
those of us who are not at oneof those stages of life?
Are we paying attention to thefact that national events are
gonna land differently indifferent ones of us based on
the identities we carry? Are werecognizing that some of us
(12:38):
might contribute money, some ofus might contribute time, some
of us might contribute prayer,and some of us might not be in a
place to contribute anything,and that all of that is valued?
And for each of us that willprobably change over our
lifetime. Doesn't have to beperfect, but it has to be really
trying and really working. Andwe have to pause and say are
(13:00):
there voices we're not hearing?Are there people who have left
us because they didn't feelwelcome here? Are there things I
am doing that are not welcomingto others? And how can you help
me learn those? And how can Ihelp you to learn the places
where you might have gaps? Andhow do we see those moments as
acts of faithfulness?
Peterson Toscano (13:22):
That was Lisa Graustein, and in a short
excerpt from a much longerQuakerSpeak video, featuring a
variety of voices.
The video is entitled "What'sthe Difference Between a
Welcoming and an InclusiveSpace?"
You will find this QuakerSpeakvideo and the QuakerSpeak
channel on YouTube, or visitquakerspeak.com.
Miche McCall (13:44):
As a Universalist friend, she's a part of a group
of Quakers who are establishingthe Three Rivers meeting. This
is a queer Christian Quakermeeting that gathers online.
I've been before it is a reallygreat community, and we'll have
links to their worship andVespers in our show notes.
(14:04):
GardelEach month, FriendsJournal writers review books
that speak to Quakers, Today,I'll tell you about two recently
reviewed books that appealespecially to children and Young
Adults. When I think abouthistorical events, it's often in
simple terms. The Supreme Courtmade gay marriage legal. Abraham
Lincoln freed enslaved people.But in those
(14:27):
oversimplifications, we forgetthe enormous amount of work
activists do to get us there.Gwen Gosney Erickson reviewed
the book More Than a Dream (14:36):
The Radical March on Washington for
Jobs and Freedom written byYohuru Williams, and Michael G.
Long. Quote "60 years after theevent, plenty of information is
now available about the 1963March on Washington. This book
delivers more than just thequick facts and quotes centering
(14:59):
on Martin Luther King Jr.'s ismonumental "I Have a Dream"
speech. It opens with BayardRustin meeting with his mentor,
A. Philip Randolph to discussstrategy for what would become
the 1963 March on Washington forJobs and Freedom" End quote.
Bayard Rustin, has popped up,seemingly out of nowhere in
(15:20):
Quaker consciousness recently.Again, activists, historians and
many, many Quakers have workedto bring his story to all of us.
This book is ideal for anyone,especially middle school
students. Dr. King envisioned awelcoming and beloved community,
which is also illustrated in thechildren's book, Katie Green
(15:41):
reviewed The First Day of Peace,which is written by Todd
Schuster and illustrated byTatiana Gardel. Quote "The story
is about two communities, themountain people and the valley
people. A wise and bravemountain girl became aware of
hardships among the valleypeople and called on her
community to help them. Thevalley people reciprocated with
(16:02):
gifts from their culture. Theytold stories and got to know
each other, the friendshipspread into a day of peace. End
Quote. The First Day of Peacedemonstrates the power of
welcome and brings the sometimesabstract idea of peace into
focus for our young friends. Thefull reviews for the books, The
First Day of Peace and More Thana Dream: The Radical March on
(16:26):
Washington for Jobs and Freedomare in the May 2024 issue of
Friends Journal, and they'reavailable at friendsjournal.org.
Peterson Toscano (16:44):
Miche, any big summer plans coming up?
Miche McCall (16:46):
Oh my gosh. Well, I will be at the 2024 Friends
Journal conference or FGCGathering at Haverford College.
Peterson Toscano (16:56):
Get out. I'm going to be there too.
Miche McCall (16:59):
You are? I'm excited.
Peterson Toscano (17:01):
Yeah, yeah. I knew you're gonna be there. But
what's your primary purpose forbeing at Friends General
Conference?
Miche McCall (17:08):
My main job will be working at the Earthcare
Center, running morningEarthcare-centered worship. What
will you be doing there?
Peterson Toscano (17:18):
Like you, I'll be enjoying the whole thing as
well. But also, I'll be on theground as Quakers, Today co-host
interviewing people that wemeet. As a result of this, our
next episode will not be nextmonth, but in two months on July
16. It's a Tuesday. And this waywe can include people's voices
that we meet. We'll be talking alot about leadership and what do
(17:41):
you do with complicated leadersand historical figures?
Miche McCall (17:46):
Since we're new, do you think we'll have any
pieces of paper or something toget people to know our podcast?
Peterson Toscano (17:53):
Yeah, like little handheld things, but we
need to be eco-friendly.Because, right. We're Quakers
and that's what we do horse. I'mthinking I might bring some
Quakers Today pins for folks.
Miche McCall (18:02):
Oh, exciting. I will put several of them on my
reusable tote bag.
Peterson Toscano (18:08):
Perfect. Well, thank you, Miche. It's been
great all the way from Spainunder a blanket chatting with
you.
Unknown (18:17):
Absolutely it's been great to see you under something
you call a halo.
Peterson Toscano (18:21):
That's right, and I get to see you in person
for the first time at FGCgathering. And thank you for
joining us for this episode ofQuakers, Today. If you like our
show, please rate and review uswherever you listen to it. Many
thanks to everyone who has beensharing Quakers Today with their
friends and on social media. Wecan be found on twitter Tiktok
(18:44):
and Instagram. Quakers, Today iswritten and produced by me
Peterson Toscano,
Unknown (18:50):
and me. Miche McCall. Music On today's show comes from
Epidemic Sound.
Peterson Toscano (18:55):
Season three of Quakers Today is sponsored by
American Friends ServiceCommittee. Do you want to
challenge unjust systems andpromote lasting peace? The
American Friends ServiceCommittee or AFSC works with
communities worldwide to drivesocial change. Their website
features meaningful steps youcan take to make a difference.
(19:17):
Through their friends liaisonprogram, you can connect your
meeting or church with AFSC andtheir justice campaigns. Find
out how you can become part ofAFSC's global community of
changemakers visit afsc.orgThat's afsc.org
Miche McCall (19:39):
Visit Quakers today.org to see our show notes
and a full transcript of thisepisode. If you stick around
after our closing, you'll hearlisteners responses to the
question, what does it mean tobe welcomed?
Peterson Toscano (19:54):
Thank you friend. It's been great spending
time with you today.
In a moment, you will hearlisteners responses about what
(20:17):
they see hear or experience thatmakes them feel welcome.
Miche McCall (20:21):
But first, we will tell you next month the
question. Here it is, "who is ahistorical figure whom you
admire, but whose actions andwords also trouble you?"
Historians, activists, and evencontent creators have been
helping us gain a fuller, morebalanced view of often revered
(20:42):
historical figures. We'relearning that the heroes of old
were not perfect.
Peterson Toscano (20:49):
Uh-uh. No, Miche could you give an example
of someone like this?
Miche McCall (20:53):
Absolutely, so, last month, we featured Tykee
James, who's the head of therecently renamed DC chapter of
the Audubon Society. The societywas originally named after John
James Audubon, a renowned artistknown for his realistic drawings
of North American birds. Hiswork inspired conservationists
(21:17):
to protect birds from beingkilled for fashion. However, he
was also an enslaver, which hasonly recently become widely
known and written about. As aresult, the DC chapter dropped
the Audubon name and now iscalling itself the DC Bird
Alliance. Most other chaptersand the National Audubon
(21:40):
organization, though, willcontinue to use his name.
According to Jacob Fenston atDCist, quote, "Board members of
the national group decided thatthe name Audubon is now much
more strongly associated withbird conservation than it is
with the 19th-centuryornithologist and artist who
(22:01):
originally inspired theorganization's name."
Peterson Toscano (22:04):
Yeah, complicated.
Miche McCall (22:06):
Yeah.
Peterson Toscano (22:07):
I'm thinking of another complicated
historical figure who's a littlebit more current from the
20th-century, Truman Capote whowas a trailblazer of literature,
his nonfiction novel In ColdBlood literally revolutionized
the genre of nonfiction. He wasalso openly gay, he had a lot of
(22:28):
courage to be openly gay in asociety that had a lot of stigma
against homosexuals, as theywere called at the time. And
although he was really widelycelebrated on television, and by
critics because he had amazingstorytelling prowess, he
privately struggled withaddiction. He had this thirst
(22:50):
for fame that he would run overfriends. He created lots of
foes, and he played fast andloose with facts. So today, as
like I learn more about hiscomplex persona, Truman Capote
is not only a literary icon, buthe also is a symbol of the
intricacies of human nature, andthe weight of societal
(23:10):
expectations, and how they canmisshape us and how we can let
them overwhelm us.
Miche McCall (23:17):
And so listener, how about you? Who is a
historical figure whom youadmire, but whose actions and
words also trouble you? Text orleave a message with your name
and the town where you live. Thenumber is 317-Quakers, that's
317-782-5377. 317-Quakers. +1 ifcalling or texting from outside
(23:46):
the USA. You can also send us anemail. We have these contact
details in our show notes overat quakerstoday.org.
Peterson Toscano (23:54):
Now, we hear answers to the question
you walk into a space, what doyou see hear or experience that
makes you feel welcome and whatmight be present that leads you
to conclude you may not bewelcome?"
Unknown (24:07):
This month, we received the following message on our
Quakers Today TikTok account@KiruG_Official commented, "If
they ask why are you here morethan once? Also, if they don't
offer you tea and biscuits, youain't welcome."
Peterson Toscano (24:25):
Yeah, absolutely. That's a deal
breaker, no tea and biscuits,you don't want me, obviously.
Miche McCall (24:29):
You don't want to be here.
Margaret Wood (24:32):
Hi, my name is Margaret Wood and I am answering
the query about what makes mefeel welcome. I live in a
campervan by choice and I have ahome base at a family homestead
in Wyomissing, Pennsylvania,being a lifelong traveler who
has migrated twice and lived onfour continents. And now on
wheels, welcoming spaces arecritical for me and not just for
(24:56):
community, but for safety and myhealth. And what makes me feel
good welcome is diversity. Mylifestyle is homeless adjacent,
if I notice gates, or I noticedaccess to public spaces is only
available for those who have asmartphone, or there's just a
(25:16):
general tone of loud signagethat is not informative, but
it's more there to scare peopleaway, or to set boundaries in a
fierce power over way ratherthan power with way, I feel
And the other thing that makesme feel welcome is a culture of
unwelcome.
caring for the space and theland, if there's trash has been
(25:39):
picked up if there's a sense oflove and community and people
feeling comfortable too. I feelsafe. Obviously things that make
me conclude I may not bewelcome, mostly, I trust my
intuition and it tells me thatsomething is often generally I
(26:00):
can't articulate this is thereason I'm not feeling safe or
I'm not feeling welcome forhours later. But I definitely
trust my gut now more than Iever did in my life. When I feel
that people who are differentpeople who look different people
who are curious and care arewelcome then then I feel welcome
(26:23):
even though I pass as aperfectly normal older woman
that knows most people do notfeel threatened by, it matters
to me that a place is open foreverybody.
Mark (26:35):
Hi, this was Mark. I'm calling from Jacksonville,
Florida, calling you because youasked me to I just enjoyed your
podcast, season three episodetwo and with the Neptune Beach,
Florida Quakers we meet atNeptune Beach near Jacksonville,
Florida. I enjoyed your podcastand I've added it to my list of
(26:57):
podcasts to listen to. Thank youso much!
In this episode of Quakers Today, we ask what does
it mean to be welcomed?
Peterson Toscano (00:06):
Lisa Graustein considers how Quaker meetings
communicate whether they arewelcoming or not. And Rhiannon
Grant wonders if a Quakercommunity were a large
household, who would be theowners, the family, the
visitors, and the outliers. I'mPeterson Toscano,
Miche McCall (00:24):
And I'm Miche McCall. This is season three,
episode three of the QuakersToday podcast, a project of
Friends Publishing Corporation.This season of Quakers, Today is
sponsored by the AmericanFriends Service Committee.
Peterson Toscano (00:38):
Hi Miche, it's great to have you back talking
about welcome and welcomingspaces. Do you feel welcomed
right now where you are?
Miche McCall (00:46):
I am currently under a blanket so I can't think
of a more safe and welcomingplace for myself.
Peterson Toscano (00:52):
Which I know a lot of people think what is that
about? Why would you be under ablanket? But it is a classic
move of podcaster and radiopeople when they're on the road.
So we're on the road are you?
Rhiannon Grant (01:03):
Logroño in central northern Spain. I just
finished my seventh day walkingon the Camino de Santiago, which
is a religious pilgrimage acrossall of Spain.
Peterson Toscano (01:14):
And it's a very international sort of
thing. I know people come fromall over the world. How are you
feeling? Being there as anAmerican, as a queer nonbinary
American? How welcome are you?
Rhiannon Grant (01:27):
I feel incredibly welcome by the people
who are walking. Though I feelseparate from many people
because of an aspect of myidentity that's hard to explain
when first meeting someone.
Peterson Toscano (01:43):
Lots of times people don't feel welcome in
other countries, butparticularly in religious
spaces.
Miche McCall (01:49):
Mmm.
Peterson Toscano (01:49):
Lots of people will see an "All Welcome" sign
in front of a church, but weknow some restrictions apply,
and we know who we are. That weknow that we're may not
genuinely be welcome, and that'swhat this episode is all about.
And before we jump into it,though, listener, we want you to
know you are welcome not only tolisten to this podcast but on
(02:12):
our new social media channelswhich we have created.
So let's get to the program. Ihad the opportunity to speak
with Rhiannon Grant, the DeputyProgram Leader and Program
Coordinator at Woodbrooke.Woodbrooke is an international
Quaker learning and researchcenter that's based in Britain.
(02:35):
Rhiannon wrote an article forFriends Journal about welcoming
spaces.
Rhiannon Grant (02:43):
I am a Quaker, I grew up as a Quaker, so I'm a
cradle-Quaker, although nottechnically a birthright friend.
I'm also a member of some otherfaith communities, so in
particular, I'm a Druid, amember of the Order of Bards,
Ovates and Druids. I'm in touchwith the Buddhist community, the
(03:04):
community I'm into being, I'm awoman, I'm a cis woman, I'm a
white woman in the Britishcontext, I'm a middle class
woman that can come overdifferently in other cultural
contexts. I'm a queer woman I'mbi and I'm married to a woman.
We got married in a Quakerwedding three years ago now
(03:26):
that's hard to believe that it'sgone that quickly.
If the Quaker community were ahousehold, who would be the
owners and who would be theguests? Even a small meeting is
usually bigger than the nuclearfamily household we often
picture today. So it might beuseful to think about communal
(03:49):
living, extended families, orthe sorts of large household
described in 19th-centurynovels. These groups often
center around a few people, acentral couple, perhaps, or a
core group who set things up. Ifyour meeting was a big household
all living together, what wouldyou feel your role to be? Are
(04:11):
you an adult member of the corefamily, secure in your position,
and able to have a say in whathappens? Perhaps you feel like a
family member, but not part ofthe core. Perhaps like a child
or an in-law or a distantcousin, acknowledged but
sometimes ignored, not takenseriously for whatever reason,
(04:33):
and sometimes anxious aboutwhether you can stay or not.
Perhaps you know that you're aguest only present on a
temporary basis and happy.Perhaps, you'd like to join the
family but get treated as aguest. Some big households have
(04:53):
actual staff and some treatcertain members of the family
like employees. There can bedeeply ambiguous positions in
such households. Senior staffmight be said to feel like part
of the family. But what looksone way to the family may not
seem the same to the staff.
(05:23):
I remember hearing someone speakin ministry actually about
wanting to be friends, what doesit mean that we're the religious
Society of Friends? Or what doesit mean to really be friendly to
one another? And I rememberthinking, then friends is all
well and good. But actually,when you come into membership,
(05:44):
when you make a public lifelongcommitment to a community,
doesn't that take it tosomething deeper?
Peterson Toscano (05:50):
Mmm.
Rhiannon Grant (05:50):
And I guess I probably started thinking about
family or that was one of thethings that put me on that
track.
Peterson Toscano (05:58):
I'm curious about Quaker meetings. I mean,
there's so many religiousinstitutions, Christian
churches, I think of inparticular, that have these big
bold signs, "All Welcome". Butwe know that in some
denominations and traditions,there are some exceptions that
apply.
Rhiannon Grant (06:15):
The people who are not welcome work that out
quite quickly, usually, even ifwe aren't explicit about it.
Definitely, I've heard stories,for example, about someone who
was really involved in a Quakercommunity, but got comments
like, "you don't dress like therest of us, do you?" It might be
(06:38):
true, but the way that it's saidand the fact of that observation
being important enough tosomeone to make it out loud
shows off the ways in whichsomeone is different. In that
case, I think along class lines,and people feel unwelcome. They
draw their own conclusions fromthat sort of comment, usually,
(07:00):
rightly,
Peterson Toscano (07:01):
Again, I'm thinking broadly of various
faith communities, there aretiers of welcome, right? There's
different levels. So you may bewelcome to sit in the pews, or
sit in the seats, but notwelcome to serve.
Rhiannon Grant (07:15):
I have sometimes been treated in ways that made
me think people are reading myage as something that means they
don't trust me as a responsibleadult. I'm still a university
student, even though I'm doing aPhD. And I've heard people say
things like, well, so-and-so'svery enthusiastic, but I'm not
sure he's reliable. Do you meanthat he's young? And yeah, there
(07:42):
are lots of ways sexuality, butalso age, people's assumptions
about gender, and what kinds ofroles are associated with
different gender presentationsand things. They are all factors
in what kinds of service we'reoffered.
Peterson Toscano (08:00):
How do theological diversity and
personal beliefs impact thesense of belonging or exclusion
within the Quaker community? Andcan you provide an example of
how these tensions have beennavigated?
Rhiannon Grant (08:14):
We can see it as a richness, we can see it as
threatening. People often feelthat sense of not wanting to
share your whole self, notfeeling that maybe you're really
welcome. And I think that canhappen around theological
diversity. I do hear storiesfrom people who say, Well, I'm
(08:35):
really a Christian and I don'tfeel that that's welcome my
Quaker meeting, or I'm really anon-theist and I don't feel that
that's welcome in my Quakermeeting. I once heard both of
those things from people whoturned out to be in the same
meeting. And I thought maybewhat's going on there is that
we're not talking about itenough. There is something about
(08:59):
trying to make spaces in whichwe feel safe enough to be
vulnerable and to share some ofthose things, often to find out
that actually that diversity iswelcome, even though we might
feel quite cautious aroundsharing.
Miche McCall (09:32):
That was Rhiannon Grant from the Woodbrooke Quaker
Learning Center in Birmingham,England. She is the author of
the soon to be released PendleHill pamphlet Deep Hospitality.
Rhiannon wrote the article, "AFamily of friends? Ttaking
Welcome to a Deeper Level." Itappears in the May 2024 issue of
Friends Journal. You could alsoread it at friendsjournal.org
Peterson Toscano (10:16):
Okay, let's bring another voice into this
conversation about welcome andinclusion. Lisa Graustein. She's
an educator, facilitator andartist with a Master of
Education in racial justiceeducation. Lisa has been
teaching in public, middle andhigh schools for 20 years.
Miche McCall (10:37):
Currently, Lisa works as a Diversity, Equity and
Inclusion facilitator andtrainer with schools and
nonprofits across the Northeast.
Lisa Graustein (10:48):
When I think about a welcoming space, I think
about a space where I can walkin and have some immediate
orientation to "am I safe here?"Am I going to be able to figure
out how I need to be here?Whether that's my home meeting,
whether that's somebody else'smeeting or Quaker church. If I
walk in a meeting door, andsomebody says, "welcome, can I
(11:09):
give you some information aboutour meeting?" That's really
different than if I walk in thedoor and say, "Oh, are you a
Quaker?" Many people in the USwill assume I'm a Quaker because
I fit a lot of the demographicnorms of what a Quaker looks
like. I know for some of myfriends of color, that's not
their experience walking in thedoor. And that are you a Quaker
can be an assumption of somehowthink maybe you don't belong
(11:31):
here, it'd be implied. What areall the things we do to make
those spaces accessible? That iswhere we get the deeper work of
inclusion. Can people physicallyaccess the building? Can they
meet their physical andcognitive needs in the way that
we're doing programming? And isthere space to get whatever
(11:51):
accommodations might be needed?Are we acting as if our young
people are fully a part of ourbody? Or these kids that are
kind of there some of the time?Do we understand that parents of
young children, that people whomight be in a process of
transition or coming out, thatpeople who are grieving or
(12:12):
carrying other intense needsmight need different care than
those of us who are not at oneof those stages of life?
Are we paying attention to thefact that national events are
gonna land differently indifferent ones of us based on
the identities we carry? Are werecognizing that some of us
(12:38):
might contribute money, some ofus might contribute time, some
of us might contribute prayer,and some of us might not be in a
place to contribute anything,and that all of that is valued?
And for each of us that willprobably change over our
lifetime. Doesn't have to beperfect, but it has to be really
trying and really working. Andwe have to pause and say are
(13:00):
there voices we're not hearing?Are there people who have left
us because they didn't feelwelcome here? Are there things I
am doing that are not welcomingto others? And how can you help
me learn those? And how can Ihelp you to learn the places
where you might have gaps? Andhow do we see those moments as
acts of faithfulness?
Peterson Toscano (13:22):
That was Lisa Graustein, and in a short
excerpt from a much longerQuakerSpeak video, featuring a
variety of voices.
The video is entitled "What'sthe Difference Between a
Welcoming and an InclusiveSpace?"
You will find this QuakerSpeakvideo and the QuakerSpeak
channel on YouTube, or visitquakerspeak.com.
Miche McCall (13:44):
As a Universalist friend, she's a part of a group
of Quakers who are establishingthe Three Rivers meeting. This
is a queer Christian Quakermeeting that gathers online.
I've been before it is a reallygreat community, and we'll have
links to their worship andVespers in our show notes.
(14:04):
GardelEach month, FriendsJournal writers review books
that speak to Quakers, Today,I'll tell you about two recently
reviewed books that appealespecially to children and Young
Adults. When I think abouthistorical events, it's often in
simple terms. The Supreme Courtmade gay marriage legal. Abraham
Lincoln freed enslaved people.But in those
(14:27):
oversimplifications, we forgetthe enormous amount of work
activists do to get us there.Gwen Gosney Erickson reviewed
the book More Than a Dream (14:36):
The Radical March on Washington for
Jobs and Freedom written byYohuru Williams, and Michael G.
Long. Quote "60 years after theevent, plenty of information is
now available about the 1963March on Washington. This book
delivers more than just thequick facts and quotes centering
(14:59):
on Martin Luther King Jr.'s ismonumental "I Have a Dream"
speech. It opens with BayardRustin meeting with his mentor,
A. Philip Randolph to discussstrategy for what would become
the 1963 March on Washington forJobs and Freedom" End quote.
Bayard Rustin, has popped up,seemingly out of nowhere in
(15:20):
Quaker consciousness recently.Again, activists, historians and
many, many Quakers have workedto bring his story to all of us.
This book is ideal for anyone,especially middle school
students. Dr. King envisioned awelcoming and beloved community,
which is also illustrated in thechildren's book, Katie Green
(15:41):
reviewed The First Day of Peace,which is written by Todd
Schuster and illustrated byTatiana Gardel. Quote "The story
is about two communities, themountain people and the valley
people. A wise and bravemountain girl became aware of
hardships among the valleypeople and called on her
community to help them. Thevalley people reciprocated with
(16:02):
gifts from their culture. Theytold stories and got to know
each other, the friendshipspread into a day of peace. End
Quote. The First Day of Peacedemonstrates the power of
welcome and brings the sometimesabstract idea of peace into
focus for our young friends. Thefull reviews for the books, The
First Day of Peace and More Thana Dream: The Radical March on
(16:26):
Washington for Jobs and Freedomare in the May 2024 issue of
Friends Journal, and they'reavailable at friendsjournal.org.
Peterson Toscano (16:44):
Miche, any big summer plans coming up?
Miche McCall (16:46):
Oh my gosh. Well, I will be at the 2024 Friends
Journal conference or FGCGathering at Haverford College.
Peterson Toscano (16:56):
Get out. I'm going to be there too.
Miche McCall (16:59):
You are? I'm excited.
Peterson Toscano (17:01):
Yeah, yeah. I knew you're gonna be there. But
what's your primary purpose forbeing at Friends General
Conference?
Miche McCall (17:08):
My main job will be working at the Earthcare
Center, running morningEarthcare-centered worship. What
will you be doing there?
Peterson Toscano (17:18):
Like you, I'll be enjoying the whole thing as
well. But also, I'll be on theground as Quakers, Today co-host
interviewing people that wemeet. As a result of this, our
next episode will not be nextmonth, but in two months on July
16. It's a Tuesday. And this waywe can include people's voices
that we meet. We'll be talking alot about leadership and what do
(17:41):
you do with complicated leadersand historical figures?
Miche McCall (17:46):
Since we're new, do you think we'll have any
pieces of paper or something toget people to know our podcast?
Peterson Toscano (17:53):
Yeah, like little handheld things, but we
need to be eco-friendly.Because, right. We're Quakers
and that's what we do horse. I'mthinking I might bring some
Quakers Today pins for folks.
Miche McCall (18:02):
Oh, exciting. I will put several of them on my
reusable tote bag.
Peterson Toscano (18:08):
Perfect. Well, thank you, Miche. It's been
great all the way from Spainunder a blanket chatting with
you.
Unknown (18:17):
Absolutely it's been great to see you under something
you call a halo.
Peterson Toscano (18:21):
That's right, and I get to see you in person
for the first time at FGCgathering. And thank you for
joining us for this episode ofQuakers, Today. If you like our
show, please rate and review uswherever you listen to it. Many
thanks to everyone who has beensharing Quakers Today with their
friends and on social media. Wecan be found on twitter Tiktok
(18:44):
and Instagram. Quakers, Today iswritten and produced by me
Peterson Toscano,
Unknown (18:50):
and me. Miche McCall. Music On today's show comes from
Epidemic Sound.
Peterson Toscano (18:55):
Season three of Quakers Today is sponsored by
American Friends ServiceCommittee. Do you want to
challenge unjust systems andpromote lasting peace? The
American Friends ServiceCommittee or AFSC works with
communities worldwide to drivesocial change. Their website
features meaningful steps youcan take to make a difference.
(19:17):
Through their friends liaisonprogram, you can connect your
meeting or church with AFSC andtheir justice campaigns. Find
out how you can become part ofAFSC's global community of
changemakers visit afsc.orgThat's afsc.org
Miche McCall (19:39):
Visit Quakers today.org to see our show notes
and a full transcript of thisepisode. If you stick around
after our closing, you'll hearlisteners responses to the
question, what does it mean tobe welcomed?
Peterson Toscano (19:54):
Thank you friend. It's been great spending
time with you today.
In a moment, you will hearlisteners responses about what
(20:17):
they see hear or experience thatmakes them feel welcome.
Miche McCall (20:21):
But first, we will tell you next month the
question. Here it is, "who is ahistorical figure whom you
admire, but whose actions andwords also trouble you?"
Historians, activists, and evencontent creators have been
helping us gain a fuller, morebalanced view of often revered
(20:42):
historical figures. We'relearning that the heroes of old
were not perfect.
Peterson Toscano (20:49):
Uh-uh. No, Miche could you give an example
of someone like this?
Miche McCall (20:53):
Absolutely, so, last month, we featured Tykee
James, who's the head of therecently renamed DC chapter of
the Audubon Society. The societywas originally named after John
James Audubon, a renowned artistknown for his realistic drawings
of North American birds. Hiswork inspired conservationists
(21:17):
to protect birds from beingkilled for fashion. However, he
was also an enslaver, which hasonly recently become widely
known and written about. As aresult, the DC chapter dropped
the Audubon name and now iscalling itself the DC Bird
Alliance. Most other chaptersand the National Audubon
(21:40):
organization, though, willcontinue to use his name.
According to Jacob Fenston atDCist, quote, "Board members of
the national group decided thatthe name Audubon is now much
more strongly associated withbird conservation than it is
with the 19th-centuryornithologist and artist who
(22:01):
originally inspired theorganization's name."
Peterson Toscano (22:04):
Yeah, complicated.
Miche McCall (22:06):
Yeah.
Peterson Toscano (22:07):
I'm thinking of another complicated
historical figure who's a littlebit more current from the
20th-century, Truman Capote whowas a trailblazer of literature,
his nonfiction novel In ColdBlood literally revolutionized
the genre of nonfiction. He wasalso openly gay, he had a lot of
(22:28):
courage to be openly gay in asociety that had a lot of stigma
against homosexuals, as theywere called at the time. And
although he was really widelycelebrated on television, and by
critics because he had amazingstorytelling prowess, he
privately struggled withaddiction. He had this thirst
(22:50):
for fame that he would run overfriends. He created lots of
foes, and he played fast andloose with facts. So today, as
like I learn more about hiscomplex persona, Truman Capote
is not only a literary icon, buthe also is a symbol of the
intricacies of human nature, andthe weight of societal
(23:10):
expectations, and how they canmisshape us and how we can let
them overwhelm us.
Miche McCall (23:17):
And so listener, how about you? Who is a
historical figure whom youadmire, but whose actions and
words also trouble you? Text orleave a message with your name
and the town where you live. Thenumber is 317-Quakers, that's
317-782-5377. 317-Quakers. +1 ifcalling or texting from outside
(23:46):
the USA. You can also send us anemail. We have these contact
details in our show notes overat quakerstoday.org.
Peterson Toscano (23:54):
Now, we hear answers to the question
you walk into a space, what doyou see hear or experience that
makes you feel welcome and whatmight be present that leads you
to conclude you may not bewelcome?"
Unknown (24:07):
This month, we received the following message on our
Quakers Today TikTok account@KiruG_Official commented, "If
they ask why are you here morethan once? Also, if they don't
offer you tea and biscuits, youain't welcome."
Peterson Toscano (24:25):
Yeah, absolutely. That's a deal
breaker, no tea and biscuits,you don't want me, obviously.
Miche McCall (24:29):
You don't want to be here.
Margaret Wood (24:32):
Hi, my name is Margaret Wood and I am answering
the query about what makes mefeel welcome. I live in a
campervan by choice and I have ahome base at a family homestead
in Wyomissing, Pennsylvania,being a lifelong traveler who
has migrated twice and lived onfour continents. And now on
wheels, welcoming spaces arecritical for me and not just for
(24:56):
community, but for safety and myhealth. And what makes me feel
good welcome is diversity. Mylifestyle is homeless adjacent,
if I notice gates, or I noticedaccess to public spaces is only
available for those who have asmartphone, or there's just a
(25:16):
general tone of loud signagethat is not informative, but
it's more there to scare peopleaway, or to set boundaries in a
fierce power over way ratherthan power with way, I feel
And the other thing that makesme feel welcome is a culture of
unwelcome.
caring for the space and theland, if there's trash has been
(25:39):
picked up if there's a sense oflove and community and people
feeling comfortable too. I feelsafe. Obviously things that make
me conclude I may not bewelcome, mostly, I trust my
intuition and it tells me thatsomething is often generally I
(26:00):
can't articulate this is thereason I'm not feeling safe or
I'm not feeling welcome forhours later. But I definitely
trust my gut now more than Iever did in my life. When I feel
that people who are differentpeople who look different people
who are curious and care arewelcome then then I feel welcome
(26:23):
even though I pass as aperfectly normal older woman
that knows most people do notfeel threatened by, it matters
to me that a place is open foreverybody.
Mark (26:35):
Hi, this was Mark. I'm calling from Jacksonville,
Florida, calling you because youasked me to I just enjoyed your
podcast, season three episodetwo and with the Neptune Beach,
Florida Quakers we meet atNeptune Beach near Jacksonville,
Florida. I enjoyed your podcastand I've added it to my list of
(26:57):
podcasts to listen to. Thank youso much!
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